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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 53
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 01:36 pm: | 
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Below is some feedback recently recieved from a visitor to the site. In hopes of soliciting more additional feedback from frols on the discussion baords.
Peace
"I have relied on AALBC for sometime to keep my current on new books, but for maybe the past year, I have seen a bombardment of the disposable commercial fiction books that revolve around the same aspects of our culture that have dismissed American intellectualism in this country. How many books can we read about sex and money....cheating and womanizing? The glossy covers of these books with their cartoon depicted images of handsome characters match the writing in its imagination and creativity. Why do we continue to support anything? Does quality not matter anymore? By us encouraging this kind of fiction it encourages the emporer to believe he indeed has on clothes.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 178
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 02:33 pm: |
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We have all concluded that you cannot dictate the tastes of others. People read for different reasons and apparently many readers consider certain genres the form of escape entertainment they are seeking. Intellectuals consider themselves an elite bunch, so they shouldn't be surprised if what the masses read is different from what they prefer to read. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 54
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 03:57 pm: |
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I think about this issue all the time. More so recently as the "hiphop/ghetto/urban/street/erotica" genre continues to increase in popularity. (Please Note: I'm not saying all the books in these genres are poor. In fact it is not really fair to lump them together as I have. I think most of you understand which types of books I'm talking about when I use the term "hiphop/ghetto/urban/street/erotica")
AALBC.com has definitely increased the amount of "disposable fiction" it promotes. However, AALBC.com has also increased the amount of literary it promotes. We really do more, than virtually any other site, to promote the broad spectrum of work published by Black authors. Well if the above is true, one might ask, why would Troy be concerned about overly promoting "disposable fiction". The answer is simple. If I stopped being concerned about it and allowed market forces to completely take control over the books AALBC.com promotes, we would have nothing but "disposable fiction" on the site. While we are a business and therefore motivated by profit, we are also motivated by a desire to promote the quality and the wide range of books written by Black authors. The latter desire comes at a financial cost.
For example, take a look at the books Thumper has selected for his reading list over the years http://thumperscorner.com/Reading_List.htm none of these books could be categorized as “disposable fiction”. If we were solely concerned about sales I would ask Thumper add titles from Nikki Turner or Zane. (Again, I not trying to disparage these authors – in fact I’m quite pleased by Zane’s impact on the industry.). I’ve sold more of any of Zane’s titles than I have of Jean Toomer’s classic Cane – one of my favorite books. The book club is an expense not only in money, but most importantly time – it does not generate revenue. Thumper’s Corner exists because of our love of quality Black books and a desire to share the information.
I recently created bestseller lists for non-fiction and fiction (http://books.aalbc.com/bestsellers.htm). The reason for this was not to look more like the traditional bestsellers lists but to be able to continue to highlight some of the quality non-fiction titles that would otherwise be overshadowed by the volume of commercial fiction sold. AALBC.com bestsellers list is based only on sales; reflecting what AALBC.com visitors are buying through the site. So it may appear that we are promoting commercial stuff, however we simply reporting what people are buying.
Often I’ll build a free author’s profile because I think it is important to know about a specific author. Profiles of people like Hortense J. Spillers http://authors.aalbc.com/hortensespillers.htm or Nathan C. Heard (http://authors.aalbc.com/nathanheard.htm) will likely never drive much traffic to the site and will not likely make the best sellers list (read: generate revenue) but they are important and often under recognized There are many authors who have profiles for this reason. In fact I could spend the rest of my natural like building thousands of pages for under recognized but significant Black writer. I won’t make money doing this, because it would appeal to a very small group of people.
The current popularity of "hiphop/ghetto/urban/street/erotica" is a trend. In recent years we seen “you-go-girl“ books rise and wane and AALBC.com as a commercial entity can will reflect these trends.
Now not real question, after all of that, is what do y’all perceive. Just because I see thing this way does not mean that is the way it is – and it certainly does not mean that is the way you see it.
My goal was to give you my perspective and solicit yours. Is AALBC.com still a good source of learning about quality work? Is there too much emphasis on the “disposable fiction”?
Peace
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Soulofaauthor
Newbie Poster
Username: Soulofaauthor
Post Number: 23
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 08:59 pm: |
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To be honest I read for enjoyment and to learn I might read a book buy lets say Gangsta by kwame and the next day the warmest december by bernice Mcfadden.I can also flip the script and get deep and read Zora Neale, or lets say Langston Hughes.I'm a reader my moods change with the wind.And we need to have books out their that will fit those moods.I remember growing up and I'm 37 and I their wasn't all of these author's to choose from.I'm proud that my girl's have so many choice's because I didn't.Well I guess I did but I just wasn't exposed to them.I was raised right but I got involed with a lot of stuff I should'nt have and thode so call you-go-girl books are what I know.To be honest I need those books I'mma lol now here cause I need to but I learn from those books and my girls do to.When I was a teenanger alot of the thinks the kids do now I always tell them look I been their done that but like when I was a kid they think it's all new.Well let me not go on but all I am really trying to say is all of our books are good years ago we didn't have all of these choice's and we need to apperciate it before they find away to get rid of freedom of the press. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 68
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 11:02 pm: |
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Hello All,
I think we are a good source for quality works, as Troy said, a damn sight better than a whole lot of folks. But, it all boils down to taste. I like reading whatever I have the taste for reading, when I want to. There's room for all genres here. Books that are more literary do get pushed to the way side. They aren't as popular. But, unlike Cynique, I feel that the masses and the literary can be one, and is more often on the same page than not. I have a hard time believing that a person will only read one type of book and that's it. Why that's like always inhaling and not exhaling. There are times when I need a break, a change of pace, and will pick up a u go girl book or two. I've seen others who read primarily u go girl books and will read a biography or a literary novel, for a change, and then go back to their u go girl books. I think our most important role is letting folks know that there are other books out here to expand their horizons, peek their curiosity. |
Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 11:35 pm: |
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AALBC is not merely a community of readers. It is also a business. A business that must pay attention to industry trends and customer demands.
The current popular titles(which some call disposable fiction) are analogous to the low-carb craze. More people want low-carb selections and people in the business of food had better cater to those needs during this current climate.
The majority of readers want what's popular, so AALBC would be a fool to have nothing but literary work hanging in the front window.
"Is AALBC.com still a good source of learning about quality work?..." This is not fair question.
As soon as you open your door as a business, or as a organization catering to public need, you have given up the right to carry only the type of product you want. That is, if you want to survive.
The question becomes, "Is AALBC.com still a good source of learning about the spectrum of all Black books?" And that spectrum must be indicative of your customer base. Are the majority of your visitors coming for Toni Morrison spin-offs or do they want to find out more about the selections offered at Black Expressions before they go over to that site and by ten books?
What AALBC does a great job of doing is acting as a store which offers variety. The clearance rack is displayed prominently in the front, but if you look hard enough, you'll find items you may not have intended to pick up.
Brian Egeston |
Blkmalereading
Regular Poster
Username: Blkmalereading
Post Number: 33
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:10 am: |
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I think AALBC does a good job overall of providing a much needed resource for discovering books written by African-Americans.
I guess this is will always be a subject for debate in all our art forms.
I would like to believe like Thumper, that sooner or later a reader will evolve and slowly discover other works and enjoy those as well. I must say that personally if not for book clubs I may never read what folks are calling 'disposable fiction'. I have a long list of Harlem Renaissance writers that I'm still working my way through. Choosing to spend your time reading is something that I personally value.
I'm always torn about this topic. If I had not been intially exposed to a certain type of writing: would I now prefer that? We've heard this argument even with the music industry. Wynton Marsalis complaining that we no longer listen, play or buy 'good' music. That we don't even understand music any more. That Black folks don't support our good musicians and if not for a white audience jazz would of died a long time ago.
I also hear the same argument being said about theatre. With the popularity of plays that started with "Beauty Shop", I see long standing Black theatres struggling to survive, while these short lived plays sweep into town and attract a large audience of people who seem to only support that kind of theatre, who actually believe that IS what Black theatre is about?
Everyone has a right to their own taste. I'm just concerned that slowly our literature is being watered. There are only a handful of new auhtors who put out a book that you can even remember, would recommend or you can imagine being something you would choose to re-read 10 years from now.
If our more literary writers didn't have a cross over audience would they be able to survive?
AALBC does a good job of keeping us in the know. Being a commercial entity you have to report what the people are buying. I appreciate the fact that not just 'disposable fiction' is show cased on this site.
But I must say that I agree with the sentiments of the letter and also wonder if we are sending a message that quality doesn't matter for us. Our entire culture is disposable.
Maybe as with most things in life, it will eventually come full circle. This will always be an ongoing debate.
I personally thank AALBC for doing such a good job. Thumper certainly chooses a wide variety of books for the book readings. The challenge will continue to be how it's all balanced. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 69
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 08:33 am: |
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Hello All,
Brian: It seems to me, that to make money, one need not to follow the industry trend, but to become a trend setter. *eyebrow raised* Am I right or am I wrong. So, let's not get it twisted that we should follow what sales when we don't know what will sale or not. And frankly, since I have yet to see any data, sales figures, etc, I don't know what is selling. I do know what people would like for me to believe, but that doesn't mean that its true.
Blkmalereading: We continue to come back to the same argument of what is "good" or "quality" literature. To answer your question, our more literary writers would not have been able to survive if they had not crossed over. The same can be said in music. In our case, we can blame exposure, the industry, or education.
I got to be me here, I'm more than tired of hearing that same old reply when it comes to quality literature and the reason its not bought is because its all "subjective". Please. Let's face it, most of the writers that are usually mentioned in this argument can't write. There's nothing "subjective" about it. "I don't want to correct my grammar in order to keep that street vibe". Jesus be a fence. The only street vibe that kind of writing is keeping up is illiteracy! "Oh, the reason I have so many prepositional phrases posing as sentences is because I'm being artisitic." Right, and the cow jumped over the moon. It seems as if many of us go out of our way to be dumb and dumber. Look, no matter what genre or subject anyone write about, there are things that don't change. A sentence still has to have a subject and a verb, etc.
But hey, we've gotten pretty good at lowering our standards in other parts of our lives, why should our literature be any different? If anything negative happens in our lives, it's somebody else's fault. We have gotten lazy. It's too hard for us to learn proper English. We've gotten so tired that our young folks can't even learn Ebonics at home, it has to be taught in the school. *eyebrow raised* Is it me? People, we are in trouble. Illiteracy should NEVER be mistaken as being "subjective" or "artistic". |
Soul_sister
Newbie Poster
Username: Soul_sister
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 09:04 am: |
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Hey Troy -- this is a good point to talk about.
As you all know I don't care for the "go-girl/go-boy" tripe that is out there. However, someone earlier mentioned that we cannot dictate what people should - and yes there is market out there about it - In the end I have agree with Thumper that aalbc is the best site for stimulating conversation, updates and reviews.
I have been working as a book reviewer for a year now and I turn all of the authors on to this site, most often their publication was mentioned here and who else is gonna support black literature but black people.
I don't believe the initial comment was attacking the site as much the genre - which I too have a problem with -- so I just don't read it -- I suppose so people enjoy it because they want to escape to fantasy lands -- what ever floats your boat -- Me, I will always like the historical fictions, murders and ethnic interest stories -- brief PR moment - I am peeping Blackbirds by Ian Smith - slated to drop in June - this is tight and moving. peace
ps - another reason I love this site - I can go all around the world, be critical and still loved - press onward and upward Troy - you know you are in prayers -- |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 85
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 10:56 am: |
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I know of no bookstore that sells only literary fiction--any bookstore you go into, you get the good, the bad and the ugly. It never fails to amaze me how people regard the existence of books that they don't have to read or can ignore as a personal affront.
You don't have to buy them. You don't have to read them. You can step on by.
I for one am interested in what is going on in the market. |
Crystal
Newbie Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 01:17 pm: |
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Troy said: Is AALBC.com still a good source of learning about quality work?
Yes it is and I greatly appreciate it. We're all going to have our own definition of what "disposable fiction" is and it doesn't bother me one bit if others want to read what I consider it to be. I just like to see others reading and this site has something for everybody.
Plus, I'm nosey like Chris and I like to see what other folks are into. |
Akaivyleaf
Newbie Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:04 pm: |
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Great points Chrishayden. While the latest trend doesn't fascinate me it does provide creativity in my reading diet. I'm glad that there are sites such as this which allow me to discuss and become knowlegeable on the entire spectrum of books available to me. I think each genre has a place and an audience and I'm glad that choice isn't stiffled here.
Troy- dissention is what makes the world go around. If we can't complain about something, some of us feel incomplete. Take what the poster said with a grain of salt. As I heard this morning from a friend, it might sting for a minute but it will dissolve.
Sharon |
Bookgirl
Veteran Poster
Username: Bookgirl
Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 02:56 pm: |
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I think this a wondeful site for avid readers like myself, for writers; debut novelist and those who have a wealth of work under their belts and for those who want to talk about what they're reading. And...for all types of Black books.
AALC gives me a lot of information that I don't find on other booksites. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 191
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 03:58 pm: |
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I'm not saying that we should be comforted by the fact, but we do need to be reminded that the dumbing down of reading preferences is not exclusive to blacks. White females love them some Danielle Steele and white males keep the comic book industry thriving. I don't know that the average Asian reads anything more than the weekly recipts from their 711 stores and Beauty Supply shops. And I don't know that Hispanics read at all. (Am I bigot, or what?) Let's face it. Pop culture rules! |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:09 am: |
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I defintely did not take the feeback that was sent to me as an attack on the site. I took it as a sincere attempt to provide constructive criticsm to benefit the site. If I came across defensive that was not my intent. I threw the question out to you all as a sanity check for what I'm trying to accomplish. I too was becoming concerned that the "pop" stuff was taking too much focus.
That said, thank you ALL of the kind and encouraging words.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 137
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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cynique:
If you're not a bigot you sound like one... |
Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:58 pm: |
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Thumper you’re wrong…mostly. But you’ve got a shred of validity to work with, albeit an infinitesimal shred. Making money and setting trends is a dichotomous fusion. Some might argue that it’s much easier to make money by following trends than to make money setting trends.
Example One:
Did Terry McMillan follow or set a trend? Set it. Did she make a boatload of money? Yes? What then became the trend of Black books? Write books like Terry McMillan and people started making money by following the Terry McMillan trend.
Number of Trendsetters 1
Number of Trend followers: Too many to mention (And they all made money)
Example Two
Did EJD follow or set a trend? He set a trend from a trend that had already been set(If that makes any sense). Did he make a boatload of money? Yes. What then became the trend of Black men writing books? Writing books like EJD.
Number of Trendsetters: 3/4
Number of Trend followers: Too many to mention(And they all made money)
Example Three
Did Zane set or follow a trend? She set one and is now making money. What then became the trend of Black books? Write books like Zane and you’ll make money and people are.
Number of Trendsetters 1
Number of Trend followers: Too many to mention (And they all made money)
The overwhelming connection in all of these examples is that these types of books are now(or once were) important facets of major publishers’ revenue. These publishers never went to writers and said, ‘Hey write something new.’ Instead, they went to readers and booksellers and distributors and asked, ‘Which way is the trend going?’ When they learned what the trends where, they acquired that reading material because they wanted to make money.
For every trendsetter you name, there are trend followers that make money from the economic ripples.
Trendsetter: Sam’s Club
Trend follower: Cosco, BJ’s Wholesale club
Trendsetter: AOL
Trend follower: MSN, Netscape
It is a much larger risk to make money as a trendsetter than follower.
Example One
Victor LaValle wrote a novel in which there was no narrative. The entire story was written in dialogue. Now that was definitely a trend-setting move. How much money did it make from that book? Not a dime.
So Thumper Jenkins as you can see your initial question, ‘Am I right or am I wrong’? Well, buddy, you’re wrong.
The public dictates business trends and when they don’t like the way businesses are heading, then they go elsewhere.
With regards to your other proclamation that we don’t know what will sell. Well based on trends and tactics, we do know what will sell. We just don’t know what will make a profit.
You don’t need sales figures in the course of this discussion as you have all the data you need. I’m almost positive that Troy, having the business acumen he does, can access AALBC site data that points to pages getting more hits than others which will give you an indication as to what most visitors are interested in. Furthermore, I’m sure Troy can pull the number and types of books sold through Amazon.com via the AALBC portal.
Therefore, if you are really and truly sincere about knowing, and sharing, the truth on this issue of trends, what sells, and what pays the rent, it’s only a few clicks of the mouse away. If you don’t want to know, then I understand why you wouldn’t.
About your other statement on quality of writing and a sentence is a sentence and illiteracy. That’s part of a discussion I thought we put to bed last year. But if you wanna revisit the nightmare…
Love Always,
Your pal Brian Egeston
…Jesus, I want you to protect me as a travel along the way…
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 198
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 01:27 pm: |
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Yes, Yukio, that's why I referred to myself as a "bigot" because I found myself succumbing to negative stereotypes the way other ethnic groups do when they talk about black folks. Forgive me. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 138
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 02:12 pm: |
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Cynique...we all succumb to "bigotry." Lets just hope if we're really interested we'd do research and if uninterested, we can just say, "I don't know!" |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 201
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 03:10 pm: |
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Actually, Yukio, my post was just a feeble, ill-advised attempt at humor. There is a very sizeable population of Latinas who read the Hispanic "you-go-girl" books currently flooding the market. And Spanish literature, of course, enjoys a long and honorable tradition in literary annals. As for Asians, they are obviously doing a lot of reading or they wouldn't command the enviable reputation they enjoy in academia. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 142
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 04:20 pm: |
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Asians, blacks, latinos, are mostly the same...the differences are really about demographics...especially blacks and latinos...also, since asians have mostly integrated, if you actually look at the poorer asians on the west coast...coming from vietnam, cambodia, etc...their quite different from the earlier asian migrants, such as Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 204
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 04:41 pm: |
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And your point is? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 144
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 05:10 pm: |
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oops...there i go, the point is that we are all no more or less literate..., and on the sly, I was suggesting that asian intellectual prowess is fiction. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 208
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 06:11 pm: |
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No further argument here. |
Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 06:34 pm: |
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Troy wrote:
I defintely did not take the feeback that was sent to me as an attack on the site.
Troy, I didn't read their comments as an attack on the site or yourself. I thought it was more a general comments on the publishing industry and book buyers, as a whole. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 71
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 09:46 pm: |
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Hello All,
You all can skip over this post if you like. This isn't going to look good for ol Brian. *with the song Precious Lord being played ever so softly by an organ* So, talk amongst yourself and remember Brian as he was.
Brian: Hey there Bri, how are you doing buddy? Yo dawg, try putting some ice on top of that knot to keep the swelling down, because after reading your last post, I KNOW, seconds before you wrote it, you must have fell and bumped your head.
Now, surely, what I'm about to say isn't news to you, but all is not as it appears. Right now, there isn't too many AA authors that are making the big money of the trendsetters that you mention. Why? Because there are way too many followers. Using your examples, which are perfect: Terry McMillian did make big paper, but 20 years after Waiting To Exhale, how are the followers doing? Authors advances are getting smaller. While there are several imprints and certainly more books being published, the number of sales for any given book is low. Many authors are lucky just to break even. The thread that was started a couple of weeks ago concerning Mid-list authors is so true. So while yes the followers where making money, even say, 5 years ago, today is a whole different day. What other author besides McMillan, Dickey or Harris is commanding mad paper like that? *eyebrow raised* I haven't seen any other, without the help of Oprah, sitting on top of the bestseller's list, have you? The trendsetters can sit up there though. To the first goes the spoils. (Look I wrote an incomplete sentence *LOL*)
Let's look at your other examples. Sure while AOL was the s_it a while back, how is it doing now? AOL charges the highest monthly rates for any dial up ISP. Because it was a trendsetter, it can get away with that, while the followers is scramblin to topple it. Monthly rates keep dropping as the seconds tick by; I can get an ISP for $16/month, $12/month, $10/month, and if I'm willing to have an ad banner take up the bottom half of my screen, I can get one for free. But, who's still the king? The trendsetter, AOL.
Now, Bri, how's the head feeling? Take a couple of Advils or Aleve, because I ain't done. Now the Victor LaVelle example...what are you talking about? The novel did have a narrative. It is a novel written in the first person narrative, which is not new. Ah, but it was an exceptional novel. While the novel may not have made LaVelle millions, it will not doubt serve as a springboard to a lifelong career. And if the money don't follow, certainly the respect and recognition as writer of merit will. For it will be LaValle that will be read in high schools and colleges by future generations, while the popular authors today, fade away. Really, can you name 10 popular authors of the 1950s, 60s, 70s? Are the still selling the same number of books that they did in their heyday? *eyebrow raised* Think on it and get back with me when the swelling has gone down and you're feeling better.
Your concerned bosom buddy and pal, wishing you a speedy recovery,
Thumper |
Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:40 pm: |
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Good one, Thumper. I mean the humor, not the argument. Boy, do I love you, but the facts you illustrate are not that great I’m sorry to say. Left your A-game at the office, huh? I won’t respond to much of the rhetoric, because in your previous post you said simply that in business people make money by being a trendsetter. Had you been specific about how much money, what type of success one could achieve by being a trendsetter, then you would’ve had a better defense. As it were, you left your Queen exposed, I saw it so I cut ya fast and cut ya deep. Holes all in the argument, Thump.
Oh by the way, the Victor LaValle story I’m referring to that didn’t make any money, it was never published. Raw Daddy(From Slapboxing) was originally written in all dialogue and failed miserably. It never saw the light of day in its pure dialogue form.
Will somebody get Thumper a band-aid, the cuts are so deep. I’m worried for his health. Not to worry. I’m a fair player. Most times I’m willing to let opponents avenge their losses. You’ll have your day…maybe.
Brian Egeston
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Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 12:07 am: |
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Brian wrote:
Example One
Victor LaValle wrote a novel in which there was no narrative. The entire story was written in dialogue. Now that was definitely a trend-setting move. How much money did it make from that book? Not a dime.
And then he wrote:
Oh by the way, the Victor LaValle story I’m referring to that didn’t make any money, it was never published. Raw Daddy(From Slapboxing) was originally written in all dialogue and failed miserably. It never saw the light of day in its pure dialogue form.
Brian, how can you use a book (or really a short story) as an example to prove a point that since it was a trendsetter it didn't make any money, when in fact the book was never published? A book can't make any money if it's never published, regardless of the book's format. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 75
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 07:51 am: |
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Hello All,
Brian: You head must still be pounding, because your last post is nothing but rhetoric. I just used the examples you did to prove my point. Actually, I was confused there for a second, I didn't know if you were agreeing with me or not. There's no need for me to bring my A game, I didn't have to take my coat off for your post.
I'm with Jmho, how can you use an example that only you know? And any story, written or oral, has a narrative. Whether you like or dislike it, or have the ability or desire to comprehend it, any and all story has a narrative. Why that's the definition of narrative, telling a story.
Bri, go lay down and rest some, coz your game is raggedy; all loosey goosey and unsightly. We'll still be here when the swelling has gone down. |
Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:28 am: |
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You know, Thumper how could I have possibly disagreed with your point? I don't know what I was thinking. Shame on me. With logical, precise, original, and *coughing* bull-rillinat arguments that you present, I should have known better.
All my love,
Brian
Jhmo, I don't believe we've met. I'm Brian Egeston. Pleasure meeting you.
Thanks for your contrubution. Looking forward to more posts from you.
Just a side note. In 1991, Joan Collins wrote two novels "The Ruling Passion" and "Hell Hath No Fury". Random House said the manuscripts were so bad they didn't want to publish them and wanted their money back.
Well, how much did Joan make for the these titles that Random house refused to publish...$1.3 million.
Brian Egseton
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 106
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 12:27 pm: |
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Brian:
The Ernest Hemingway story "Hills Like White Elephants" is almost totally written in dialogue and has been anthologized many times. Perhaps that's where LaValle got the idea. |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 80
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 05:57 pm: |
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Hello All,
Brian wrote: "You know, Thumper how could I have possibly disagreed with your point? I don't know what I was thinking."
Me either.
Brian wrote: "Shame on me. With logical, precise, original, and *coughing* bull-rillinat arguments that you present, I should have known better."
Sho should've.
Brian, you never did answer his question? *eyebrow raised* I'm interested.
Chris: Seriously, educate me, because I'm not understanding. Is writing a story or novel in dialogue the same as writing it in the first person narrative? |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 81
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:03 pm: |
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Hello All,
I apologize for mistyping my previous post. The "Brian, you never did answer his question? *eyebrow raised* I'm interested." Should have said, Brian, you never did answer Jmho's question? *eyebrow raised* I'm interested in hearing it.
My bad.
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Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Hey Thump,
Of course I answered it. Go back and check the transcript.
Your Personal Easter Bunny,
Brian
I don't know why I'm taking the time to explain this to you. Why have I fallen in love with Thumper? Here's your answer to Chris' question about first person narrative and dialogue being one in the same.
A novel/story written in all dialogue is vastly different from first person narrative. First person narrative is a point of view from which a story is told whereas dialogue is a function of a character which can be written while using any of the three points of view. A story written in dialogue is nothing more than a stage play without directions or perhaps a screenplay without parentheticals and action. Whereas first person narrative is told usually through the eyes of the protagonist e.g. Eden by Olympia Vernon or should I say Color Purple Part II by Alice Walker’s second coming.
To Illustrate:
An excerpt that might be written from a story using all dialogue:
“Thumper Jenkins, have you not an ounce of respect for the man? For God’s sake he’s only trying to prove a point.”
“Why should I? He’s a babbling moron with nothing more than a high school diploma downloaded from the Internet. Walk with me to this file cabinet and I’ll show you what I mean.”
“I’m a bit hesitant to follow your lead, I must say. It’s not as though this evidence will change the outcome of his article.”
“Never you mind. Don’t stand so far away. Come closer. Trust me.”
The entire book/story would read this way. The character would have to tell another character what the room looked like or what the temperature was. There could me no internal musings. You know how Invisible Man starts out, I am an invisible man? Well he’d have to be talking to another character in order for that phrase to be on the page. And then the writer would have to explain why the nameless character is talking to this other character and spilling his guts. BUT he would have to do so in a speech by the character.
WHERE AS FIRST PERSON NARRATIVE MIGHT READ
I knew there’d be difficulties in convincing him to see my theories. When I got the call to his office, I’d already begun prepping, hoping it would make even a miniscule difference.
“Thumper Jenkins, have you not an ounce of respect for the man? For God’s sake he’s only trying to prove a point,” I said.
“Why should I? He’s a babbling moron with nothing more than a high school diploma downloaded from the Internet.” As he rose from the chair and motioned for me to follow, shadows danced across the wall. They were our shadows, like partners forced together by awkward moments.
“I’m a bit hesitant to follow your lead, I must say. It’s not as though this evidence will change the outcome of his article.” At the door I stayed wishing he’d come back to my side of the room, my territory where I felt more suited for the battle.
“Never you mind. Come closer. Trust me,” he said.
As you can see, a piece written in pure dialogue has to work much harder in order for the writer to convey all aspects of the scene i.e. movement, emotions, setting. But using narrative, whether it’s 1st 2nd or 3rd person, allows a writer to paint a better picture without making the reader work so hard tounderstand. What then is the advantage of using all dialogue? In my opinion, it’s like Miles Davis going into jazz fusion. It may miss the mark and people might not like or understand it, but hey try it and see what happens.
Furthermore, I think it would be impossible, well not impossible it can be done, but one might also delete the tags if using all dialogue. A writer might do away with, he said-- said Troy--or he asked the woman, However if a writer wanted to do something strange like use all dialogue, it behooves him/her to employ tags as it would get very messy when four or five characters are in a scene. But, it can be done.
Hope this helps. School’s out.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 229
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:18 am: |
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So, what's the difference between a book with only dialogue and a play? |
Abm
Regular Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 35
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:47 am: |
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Little difference, I'd imagine, Cynique. Although, I suppose a play can (and often does) include some narration, while I suppose a dialogue-only book would not. |
Abm
Regular Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:52 am: |
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BTW: This is an fascinating ongoing row occurring between Thumper and Brian. Although, I can't help wondering whether the source of your apparent beef is 'literary' or 'personal'. |
Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:30 pm: |
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Brian wrote:
Jhmo, I don't believe we've met. I'm Brian Egeston. Pleasure meeting you.
Brian, it's a pleasure to meet you, too.
Brian wrote:
Just a side note. In 1991, Joan Collins wrote two novels "The Ruling Passion" and "Hell Hath No Fury". Random House said the manuscripts were so bad they didn't want to publish them and wanted their money back.
Well, how much did Joan make for the these titles that Random house refused to publish...$1.3 million.
Did the publisher refuse to publish Victor's book? And, is Victor going to sue to the publisher to get his money that *he* lost from a novel that they promised to publish but didn't?
You mentioned Victor's book to prove a point that he wrote a book that was of a trendsetting style which didn't make any money. Though you knew when you wrote what you wrote that his book was never even published thus it didn't make any money for either the publisher or the author. We were speaking in turns of sales and not of court rulings. You used an example that didn't prove the point you were trying to make. |
Soulofaauthor
Regular Poster
Username: Soulofaauthor
Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 10:46 pm: |
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Lol I just love the eyebrows rasied thing that thumper does. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 159
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 05:23 pm: |
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BE...much of John E. Wideman's work is with the ""...so that u have to work a little harder to get it...but then the actual reading feelings more "natural"
play do have much narration...shakespeare's work are plays... |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 84
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 05:51 pm: |
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Hello All,
Brian, Brian, Brian, school's not out, that was the lunch bell. As always, you got the two confused, and you showed up at school again, late, looking dazed and bewildered.
Brian, a book written with only dialogue is not revolutionary or new. There is a technical term for it, and my English tutor is going to be pissed off at me because I forgot it, coz we had a class on the different narratives after I read A Feast of Peonies by Obi, a book that was written in the second person narrative.
A book written in dialogue, I had started calling them "thought" books years ago. Because only one person is talking and it gives the impression that the character is talking to himself or remembering or experiencing the story in his head. If the book is poorly written, it comes across as being monotonal and claustrophobic. Several examples of this type of narrative comes to mind, the most popular and irritating being How Stella Got Her Groove Back. Boy, I hate, absolutely LOATHE that book. The second example is Move Over Girl by Brian Peterson (I hope I'm getting the name right), which I liked very much.
I'll ask my tutor for the correct name of the technique. I should feel bad for stringing you out there like that, but I don't. *evil grin* *LOL*
ABM: I don't know if its personal or not, between Brian and me. I hope that that is NOT the case of it being personal. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 235
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 06:12 pm: |
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Well, if the book is all dialogue, and only one person is speaking, would this be considered a monologue? Or perhaps a sililoquy? |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 86
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 06:32 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: To us lay persons (except you are not a lay person, you're a professional, but play along with me (ABM don't start *eyebrow raised*) anyway, the answer to your question is yes. But *whispering* between me and you, Brian is trying to show me up by going all academic and Oxford English on me. *giggling* I ain't suppose to know. *giggling getting louder but I'm trying to contain it* |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 06:57 pm: |
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You tell him Brian. Shoot, that Thumper gets on my nerves anyway. *shouting* You put him in place Brian! *doing the cabbage patch* Go Bri-an, go Bri-an, Go Bri-an. *ROTFLMAO* |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 237
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 06:58 pm: |
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You flatter me, Thumper. You know the only thing I'm a professional at is being a malicious trouble maker. heh-heh |
Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 10:29 pm: |
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Thumper, my pal. Oh, wait a minute, JHMO, thanks again for the post. I think if you go back and read all the posts thoroughly, you might get a better grasp of my argument. Or, please e-mail me(brian@brianwrites.com). Hell, call me if you want to and I'll explain it to you. 404-784-1176. I am very easily found. However, I only fight/argue on AALBC with Thumper. Ding-Ding
By the way, Thump I wasn’t trying to show you up. I actually took serious time to try and explain for your benefit and others who might be wondering about the differences between dialogue and different types of narrative.
Thanks for your response, but I’m afraid this issue is not debatable. It’s like calling a question mark a vowel. Narrative and dialogue are two totally separate entities.
As you eluded to —thought books are a form of narrative. Dialogue in its purest form and its most simple example is: The method by which characters in a story are talking to one another.
The Oxford English Dictionary defines narrative as an "account of connected events in order of happening."
Dialogue is "a conversation in written form" (Oxford English Dictionary). It is when characters speak to each other and their words are placed in quotation marks so the reader knows which words each character said. NOTE: Some writers do not use quotations, such as Victor LaValle,
If a character is talking to himself/herself that is not dialogue. Some might call it internal musings of character or inner thoughts of a character. But dialogue occurs ONLY when a writer is making a character speak out loud.
THIS IS DIALOGUE:
“No, I don’t hate you, Thumper. What on earth would give you that impression?”
“Well, you always try to embarrass me on my own discussion board.”
“That’s not might intent, Thump. You’re good for AALBC and you’re good for books. We’re just the Biggie and Tupac of books, that’s all.”
“Why do we have to fight?
“Because no one else in the book industry has the guts to fight, disagree, and debate anymore the way Wright and Baldwin used to. Everyone wants to be nice instead of saying what they feel.”
“Oh, that explains it. So are we friends now that no one is looking?”
“Hell, nawh! Pay for my dinner so we can get out of here.”
“I’ain’t! Pay for your own damn dinner, heathen!”
“Dodo-head.”
“African Booty Scratcher.”
“Hack.”
“Cynic.”
“Country Bumpkin.”
“Ya mama.”
“Ya daddy.”
Etc.
THIS IS NOT DIALOGUE
Thumper hates me and I know it. Are you ever gonna like me, Thumper? That’s what I wanna ask him. You know something? You can hate me forever, but I’m gonna be your number one fan no matter what. That’s what I’ll say when I post again.
(Though it reads like dialogue. It is not. The character is not talking to anyone. The writer(me) is telling the reader what the character is thinking and not what he is saying.)
Here is a sample from the example you gave of Feast of Peonies.
[You were also more afraid of her than your own mothers. Your mothers would coddle you, but Big Ma spanked, and you all knew it. You knew because she told you. "Don't play with me," she would say, "because I spank." You know now that it was a propaganda ploy, but it worked. You stayed on your Ps and Qs in that woman's house.]
In this example, the reader has a tendency to think that the writer is talking to them(if a writer intends otherwise, they have broken the rule of using second person narrative—and I’m not opposed to breaking rules in writing.)
You can reference a character in the story which another character is speaking to. However, in no way shape or form is the above example considered all dialogue.
*Often, this kind of story has the narrator speaking to a younger version of their self. This point of view is very rare because it is extremely difficult to pull off. The reader may feel that they are the one spoken to, and will find it difficult to accept that they are doing the things the narrator tells them they are doing.
You yourself confirm this theory, Thumper when you wrote in your review of A Feat of Peonies “…After the initial shock of the first few pages wore off, it took me a minute to get used to second person narrative voice…”
You’re right it is difficult to grasp and not a common practice, but when someone does it, hell even tries it. They should be applauded. Still, it is not dialogue.
Dialogue and narrative are different, Thumper. They just are. Not trying to show you up, just trying to be informative. I hope this helps.
CYNIIQUE
“…what's the difference between a book with only dialogue and a play.”
Well, to start with a play has stage directions and action written into the manuscript. If we were making a comparative analysis we could think of books(novels) and plays as being two distinctive FORMS of writing.
As an example a play would be written:
************************************************
THUMPER: Brian, get off my discussion board!
Thumper bangs computer. His grande latte spills. Lights dim to spilled drink.
(Thumper gasps)
BRIAN: Won’t you please allow me to stay for 124 more posts? I really wanna be a gold member.
Brian downstage. He falls to his knees. Clasps his hands. Beggs pitifully.
****************************************************
Whereas a novel (written in all dialogue) differs via the following example.
****************************************************
“Brian, get off my discussion board!”
“Won’t you please allow me to stay for 124 more posts? I really wanna be a gold member.
***************************************************
As you can see, in written form they are vastly different, but in the spoken word form, the two might be hard to decipher one from the other.
Is the Thumper Brian thing personal? Not even close to personal. It’s strictly business and Thumper. I’m sorry. But I have to say it but…You’re fired.
Brian Egeston
*Excerpt from creative writing workshop
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Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 89
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 01:08 am: |
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Hello All,
Brian: Yes dialogue and narrative are different if used in their more basic forms. But there is no rule that states that you can not use dialogue as a narrative form. I've read books where it was done, and done well. You are correct. This isn't debatable. You're just wrong.
My Merriam Webster Collegiate Dictionary, the 10th edition, confirms your definition of a dialogue being a conversation between two people, or a similar conversation between a person and something else. OR, the conversational element of literary or dramatic composition. Now, in that same dictionary the definition of narrative is " something that is narrated: story; 2. the art or practice of narration; 3. the representation in art of an event or story.
If you think that both dialogue and narrative can not be merged into one, or dialogue can not be used as a narrative, man, you ain't losing your mind--you done lost it. Common sense would dictate, at least to me, there is no point in anyone writing a short story or a novel without making a point, without telling a story. Why what would be the motivation of a short story if not to tell a story? *eyebrow raised* What would be the reason for writing a novel, if not to tell a story? *eyebrow raised* Be careful with your answers, the questions will only get harder. So, if as you said earlier Victor LaValle wrote a short story using nothing but dialogue, you're contradicting yourself. Especially if your stance is dialogue in itself can not be used as a narrative, since dialogue used by itself can not tell a story.
Brian, you can't read dawg. Now go back and re-read my post. You have misconstrued my mentioning A Feast of Peonies. Let me try this again: the reason which sparked my English tutor telling me about the different narrative forms was my reading of A Feast of Peonies. A Feast of Peonies was simply the catalyst for the lesson on various forms of narratives. It was in this conversation that I found out the TECHNICAL name for a novel or story written strictly in dialogue (the technical name that I can not remember)! You're not paying attention. The two novels that I did claim as using the dialogue as narrative was How Stella Got Her Groove Back and Move Over Girl. Talk about those novels, don't waste time trying to argue with me over a novel that I had already said was written in the second person.
Come on now Brian, you're making yourself look bad. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 238
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 11:32 am: |
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Thumper, it appears to me that these exchanges between you and Brian are a very good example of what a "dialogue" is. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 164
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 12:01 pm: |
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cyn....yes, yes....a long azz dialogue!
happy easter, btw! |
Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 07:25 pm: |
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Thumper, you know I love you, but I have no time to go back and forth on this issue as there is no gray area here. Your points have no basis and you have not given practical examples(not simply book titles)of these theories you subscribe to. If you really believe what you say to be true, I'd suggest you take the postings of this topic and go hang out with your English tutor so that she/he can explain it to you. That is if you are genuine about the initial question you asked about the differences in 2nd person narrative and dialogue. (If not, I'll understand why) It's clear that you can't listen to me with an unbiased ear.
AND if you really, really, I mean honestly and sincerely want some closure on this issue, I can try and persuade Mat Johnson or a professor of creative writing that I know to explain it to you 'cause Lawd know you won't listen to me.
I know you like to debate and it's hard for you to concede an argument, but Thumper Jenkins this one is not up for discussion. You can go on thinking that what you have said is accurate as long as you don't talk to the kids in my writing workshops(based on researched and published information) and lecture them on creative writing.
Your personal Easter bunny,
Brian
P.S.
Oh by the way, if you can find where I eluded to this ridiculous statement that you made in this last post.
"...If you think that both dialogue and narrative can not be merged into one, or dialogue can not be used as a narrative, man, you ain't losing your mind--you done lost it..."
I'll donate $1000 to your favorite charity. And I ain't got a dime to give away.
Please post your response on another topic as my computer won't allow me to access this topic anymore. It gives me an error message that reads--"Lost cause. No more postings allowed.”
I suggest that we end this post as no one else is contributing to the topic and I have listed numerous examples that can be found in several books and websites on writing. I have also illustrated various uses of the forms of writing in question. I think people are tuning in now just to watch us fight(which is fine with me) but let’s fight about another topic. Preferably one that I have not explained with illustrations and one you have argued with opinions an no articulated examples.
Holla at cha boy.
Brian 2 Thumper 0
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Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 90
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 09:39 pm: |
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Hello All,
Yeah Brian, let's end this. Lost cause: Funny, I was thinking the same thing. *shaking my head* On my Thursday, April 8, 2004 post at 5:57 PM, I asked Chris, "Chris: Seriously, educate me, because I'm not understanding. Is writing a story or novel in dialogue the same as writing it in the first person narrative?" That was my question. I asked it because one of us was/is confused, and I know it ain't me. It's all about reading what is written.
"Brian 2 Thumper 0" - *LOL* You got jokes too! Go ahead, take another year off, and come back at me again. Next year try READING what I write.
Looking forward to next year's attempt, your bosom buddy and pal (with the Dick and Jane readers ready to send to you),
Thumper |
Kc_trudiva
First Time Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 08:06 am: |
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the "dialogue" between Thumper and Brian was quite fascinating. not only was i educated on the difference between narrative and dialogue, but i was also entertained. who'da thunk that education could be such fun? have either of you ever considered teaching? or do you already? i'm sure you'd (or already) bring a new persespective to the classroom; it's refreshing.
ess |
Lambd
Veteran Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 67
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 09:55 am: |
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I guess one person's education is another person's confusion. One of those dudes is a genius and the other is confused as hell. I'm just a layman, so I don't know which way is up anymore. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 241
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:40 pm: |
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I have another question. If a first person narrative recreates a what-he-said-and a what-she-said scenario in its narration, then is this a dialogue within a monologue? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 05:49 pm: |
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no. a first person narrative is not the same as monologue...also, I believe that a monologue primarily pertains to plays not fiction; i media work differently...
yes. if there is such a thing as a monologue in fiction, then you can say that there is a dialogue within a monologue...
yet, another consideration could be the stream of consciousness as an internal monologue, where there is often dialogue among several characters.... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 247
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:04 pm: |
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"mono" is a prefix meaning "one". So, a monologue is one person talking. In the first person narrative, the narrator could be relating verbatim what he hears, and what he hears might be a conversation between 2 people who are having a dialogue. And why did I bring up this convoluted subject again after Thumper and Brian signed off? It's a subject that kinda intrigues me. Hummmm. |
Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:12 pm: |
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Brian wrote:
JHMO, thanks again for the post. I think if you go back and read all the posts thoroughly, you might get a better grasp of my argument. Or, please e-mail me(brian@brianwrites.com).
I asked my question on this board and think the answer should appear here as well. There may be others who are interesting in reading your response. I read your posts thoroughly hence my question. I guess it was easier to tell me in all those words that you were not going to answer than to actually answer. |
Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 04:41 pm: |
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Nice round, Thumper. Lookin' forward to the next one.
Holla
Brian
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Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 03:56 pm: |
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Hello Brian,
Brian wrote: "Nice round, Thumper."
It was on my side of the table, Brian. I'll see you sometime next year. You study up good now. *smile* |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 111
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 05:10 pm: |
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Hello All,
Naw, I couldn't leave this one alone just yet. I got the technical name for the narrative that is all dialogue, dialogic narrative. A dialogic narrative is one in which the several voices who tell the story is one equal footing with one another, where no voice is more dominant than the other. I talked to the tutor last night and got re-schooled on the 8 or 9 different narratives and their sub branches, the role of the narratee (sp) and all that other stuff. Now, I'm really out of here. School is official out of session.
ps: Brian: You want to arrange for some private lessons with my tutor? I can't do nothing but help. *eyebrow raised* *LOL* |
Linda
Newbie Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 04:19 pm: |
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I know I am late getting in on this post. But I read this in one of the post and it differs from anything I have ever heard of or been taught.
The post reads: The entire book/story would read this way. The character would have to tell another character what the room looked like or what the temperature was. There could me no internal musings. You know how Invisible Man starts out, I am an invisible man? Well he’d have to be talking to another character in order for that phrase to be on the page. And then the writer would have to explain why the nameless character is talking to this other character and spilling his guts. BUT he would have to do so in a speech by the character.
I was taught: Narrator - IN ANY TEXT, THERE IS AT LEAST ONE NARRATOR. Some of the differences in types of narrators can be found in whether or not that "person" is a part of the story or not, omnipresent or omniscient, speaks of themselves or attempts to erase their own presence and disappear from the readers consciousness. |
Linda
Newbie Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 24, 2004 - 04:46 pm: |
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Sorry everyone. I forgot to add what I have been taught about dialogue.
I was taught and it's from the dictionary -- pay special attention to number four.
1. characters’ words: the words spoken by characters in a book, a film, or a play, or a section of a work that contains spoken words
2. formal discussion: a formal discussion or negotiation, especially between opposing sides in a political or international context
3. conversation: talk of any kind between two or more people ( formal )
4. literary work in conversation form: a work of literature in the form of a conversation
Well, thats my two cents. LOL
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