| Author | Message | ||
     Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 313 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: |
In another thread, the topic was the pairing of Latina actresses with black male leads. This made me wonder, who are some of your favorite on- and off-screen black couples? Some of mine are... Sanaa Lathan and Wesley Snipes in "Disappearing Acts" Ruby Dee and Ossie Davis Alfre Woodard and Delroy Lindo in "Crooklyn" Nia Long and Larenz Tate in "Love Jones" Angela Bassett and Denzel in "Malcolm X" Angela Bassett and Courtney B. Vance Erykah Badu and Common Diahann Carroll and James Earl Jones in "Claudine" | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2566 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Heathcliff and Claire Huxtable in "The Cosby Show" DeWayne and Whitney Wayne in "Diff'rent World" Martin Lawrence and [Tisha] Campbell in "Martin" (At least before the sexual harrassment thing...Hehe!) Angela Bassett and Laurence Fishburne in "What's Love Got To Do With It" | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 318 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: |
Oh, how could I forget!??! Max and Kyle in "Living Single" | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2568 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
I never quite 'bought' Max and Kyle. The woman who played Max is lovely, with body action to spare. But its so obvious the guy who played Kyle is really gay everytime I saw them together I couldn't help thinking, "Come on now. Who they think they're kidding??" | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 320 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Erika Alexander...she came a long way from Cousin Pam on The Cosby Show, didn't she? I never thought T.C. Carson (I think that was his name) was gay. But what do I know? I thought Overton Wakefield Jones was sexy as hell. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2570 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yeah. The whole cousin Pam thing was funny in a way that Cosby's producers didn't intend. Because she was presented as this whole po', ignant Cousin whom Cliff and Claire were 'saving' from the ghetto. And all the time I'm wondering when they gone let Pam join a street gang and do drive-bys. I know this suppose to be the era of the metrosexual (gay-acting straight man). But that T.C. Carson was more than just 'metro'. You just liked Overton cause you wanted to get your jolly off of rubbing his shiny bald head. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 322 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, they aimed for (and missed) street cred with Pam, that grating Karen Malina White, and crew. About Overton's baldie...how did you know??? | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2573 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
That @#$% Karen White was like listen to broken glass scraping against a chalk board. You strike me as the kinda chick who'd dig rubbing a man's naiked body parts. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 325 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
ABM: You strike me as the kinda chick who'd dig rubbing a man's naiked body parts. Mah: I guess the Scared Straight program in Cell Block N ain't as effective as it used to be, huh? Recidivism rates IS HIGH!!! Did you mean rubbing them with GLASS, or was that comment meant to be as random as it sounded, lol??? | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2576 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well. It's just a coincidence on my part that those were adjacent. I hope you're not using them as pointers for some kinda sadism. But if it is, please reserve such for your fiction. <<nervoushaha!>> | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 328 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I'm pleading the fifth. Next subject. ;-) | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2578 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yes Mistress Mahogany! <<slavishlybowing>> | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 330 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Oh, get UP! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2581 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
I'm trying. But I think you broke it. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 199 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I LOVED Max and Kyle. Did you see them recently reprise their roles on "Half and Half"? It was hilarious. I, too, thought that actor was sexy--flamboyance and all. (No surprise, if you read my views on Cary Grant! LOL) I agree with all your choices above. I also liked the two characters in "Love and Basketball," maybe just because I thought the story was so cute. I also liked Janet and Pac together in "Poetic Justice." Ossie and Ruby take the cake for real life couples. I am still so sad for her. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 200 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
ABM, I'm thru telling your butt to BEHAVE. I guess some brothers just love living on the edge. And Mah, I'm thru telling you that you are TOO MUCH. LOL all around! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2593 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep, I too dug Sanaa Lathan and Omar Epps in 'Basketball". Though, I pretty LOVE Sanaa in ANYTHANG! (I think it's because she looks A LOT like my wife.). Didn't quite 'buy' Janet and 'Pac in 'Justice", though. I wanted to. I think the direction/script distracted me (it was just too unnecessarily 'ghetto' at times). Pray for me! | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 202 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Maybe I was distracted too--by Tupac! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2596 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yvettep, Yeah. 'Pac was a MOFO. Wasn't he? We lose 'Pac and Biggie and get Fitty Cents and 'Game' no rappin' @$$es in their place? DAYAM! | ||
| Sisg Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Favorite onscreen couples: Sanaa and Omar "Love and BBall" Sanaa and Wesley "Disappearing Acts" Harpo and Oprah "The Color Purple" Whitley and Dewayne "A different world" Claire and Heathcliff Huxtable Angela Bassett and Taye Diggs I liked Kyle and Max too on Living Single. Although he did seem a little sweet...that dude could sing, and we sung to Max...i got goosebumps. LL and Gabrielle Union in "Deliver us from Eva". Now who do you think would make a good couple, onscreen or off? I would love to see Idris Elboa? and Sanaa Lathan in a romantic movie or as a onscreen couple. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2597 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: |
Sisg, I once had the idea about a love triangle between Denzel Washington, Halle Berry and Russel Crowe. Denzel steal Halle from Crowe who seek revenge. There's lots of steamy sex. And a thrilling climatic fight scene in the end. Hey. Maybe Halle will do a lusty sex scene in motion picture with a brothah for the change [the TV thang with her boy-toy don't count]. What inspired the idea was when Halle and Denzel won the Oscars a couple years ago and there was a lot of hubbub that Crowe deserved it instead of Denzel. The idea falls apart in my mind though because I have trouble thinking that Halle could play the role strong enough to think that such potent characters like Denzel and Crowe would want to fight over her. | ||
| Sisg Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
No ABM, Halle ain't strong enough to pull it off. Try Sanaa with Denzel and Crowe (but I don't think Mrs. Washington would go for that either). That's why Denzel hadn't been doing too many love scenes, especially not with no black women. Things heat up...i think. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 764 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
I have NEVER seen a motion picture couple of ANY RACE ....with more chemistry than Billy Dee Williams and Diana Ross in "Lady Sings the Blues" and "Mahogany".   I also loved the images of Paul Winfield and Cicely Tyson in "SOUNDER". And then James Earl Jones and Cicely Tyson in "The River Niger"-----was far more realistic and more LOVING than James Earl Jones and Diahann Carroll were in "Claudine"---although I love that film and the soundtrack from "Claudine" REMAINS my all time favorite album. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 203 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Kola, I had forgotten about them. Yes, they were quite sizzly weren't they! And the Claudine soundtrack!--Man, I think I can still remember the pauses in the songs where the tracks changed in my parents' 8-track tape of that!!!! | ||
| Justwrite "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Justwrite Post Number: 142 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Angela Bassett and Taye Diggs!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 769 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Forrest Whittaker and Robin Givens were HEAVENLY in "A Rage In Harlem". Astoundingly good. Shame that film wasn't really a hit. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 770 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Hi Yvette. I didn't hear the "CLAUDINE" soundtrack when it was actually OUT....I came much later.....but I do love Curtis Mayfield's writing and the CD is my absolute favorite CD on the planet. Gladys Knight is so unbelievably soulful and "natural" and EFFORTLESS. Drop by here when I'm cooking or online---you're likely to hear Louis Armstrong or Bessie Smith or CHRISSIE HYNDE (the Pretenders) or Philip Glass playing. I love to watch old, old films---mainly from 1912 to about 1939 (which was Hollywood's ultimate Golden Year). I love SILENT movies and watch those a lot for inspiration. It's funny but I don't like "new" things unless it's really original or the quality is very good. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 335 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, Ms. Ross and Billy Dee sure lit things up on the big screen. ABM wrote: I too dug Sanaa Lathan and Omar Epps in 'Basketball". Though, I pretty LOVE Sanaa in ANYTHANG! (I think it's because she looks A LOT like my wife.). Mah: My compliments to your wife, because I think Sanaa is absolutely gorgeous. I love watching her work. Her and Kerry Washington. She's eerily good in "Lift." Catch it, if you haven't. "Our Song" too. ABM: Didn't quite 'buy' Janet and 'Pac in 'Justice", though. I wanted to. I think the direction/script distracted me (it was just too unnecessarily 'ghetto' at times). Mah: Agreed. And let's be honest: If it's not in the role of a married woman playing a single woman, Janet can't act. Like her singing voice, her acting chops are paper thin. BUT she does good works, and she is a good ENTERTAINER. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2599 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Sisg, I LOVE Sanaa. But I’m not sure that even she could hold her own opposite BOTH Denzel and Russell in such a movie. Actually, the more I think about it, the less I can divine who could. Mah, Thanks for compliments to the missuh. ‘Cause DAT’s my BABY! And I agree, Kerry Washington is 'delovely' as well. Both Sanaa and Kerry have something about them that make it nearly impossible to avoid starring into their faces. And your bit about Janet feigning being single is funny. Janet is a hard worker and a good dancer (though not really as great as often given credit for). But she most DEFINITELY benefited from being the baby sister of Michael Jackson! Kola, I agree Ross and Williams were DYNAMITE together! They had a timeless, epic chemistry that remains on par with any every produced by Tinsel Town. Frankly, I’m surprised that White Hollywood would dare allow BLACK foks to look that good together on screen. Billy Dee was pretty good with Diann Carroll on Dynasty as well. Billy D. was a MOFO! He would have straight-up OWNED LaLa Land had he shared Harrison Ford’s skin color. My favorite Billy D. moment: 1980 premiere of Star Wars’ the Empire Strikes Back (still, by far, the greatest of the Star Wars films!). Billy D’s dashing Lando Calrisian in a funktabulous space get-up and a I’m-here-to-mack-all-the-honies smile walks to greet his long-time companion Han Solo as his CAPE flutters around him. It was an arresting moment. Because, I swear, EVERY chick in the theatre – Black/White/Other - squealed like 15 year old school girls for about 7 minutes. At that moment I thought, “Dayam! When I ‘grow up’, I wanna be just like HIM!” | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 340 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
ABM: And your bit about Janet feigning being single is funny. Janet is a hard worker and a good dancer (though not really as great as often given credit for). But she most DEFINITELY benefited from being the baby sister of Michael Jackson! Mah: See, I think she has benefitted MORE from being the studio creation of Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. Her sense of style counts for something too because my girlfriends and I ALL rocked that key earring back in the day. I agree, genetics probably got her foot in the door (esp. on "Good Times" and "Fame"), but I have always thought of her and Michael as completely separate entities. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 208 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I have always thought of Janet as a kind of mouthpiece for Jam and Lewis. Nothing wrong with that: I have not generally liked their production of other folks and I probably wouldn't like Janet's work by other producers. (I can't think of any, but I likely wouldn't care for it.) And I do find a certain self-conscious, "look-at-how-cute-I-am," shy quality to her acting--kind of like when she'd do Mae West as a child. BUT. Dontcha talk about her character in "Justice"--I effectively put myself in her place in that movie!!! What bookish, poem-writing-in-a-3-ring-binder, suburban Black gal didn't go thru a "thug love" phase! (I know she wasn't "suburban" in the movie. Like I said, that was me!) I am not a huge fan of Tupac's writing and rapping. (except for his Digital Underground days.) But I do think he was absolutely stunning to look at on the screen. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 779 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
ABM, I never "wanted" Billy Dee Williams. I just thought he was incredible with Diana Ross. They really were "touched" on screen together. I agree with James Baldwin's assessment that ROSS was the most charismatic, enigmatic black actress we've ever had. She was a far better actress than she was a singer----and actually, I think she was greatly underrated as a singer, too. Black people think that "church/soul" singing is the only good singing and Ross was gifted in a whole other way---she really had "IT", and as Baldwin noted, I've never seen another black woman on the screen who was so captivating and alluring. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 780 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Janest Jackson benefitted from being "A JACKSON"---otherwise, she never would have made it. She was in the right family and was "cute" and had been on t.v. all her life. But she's one of the least talented people in showbiz. The reason I love her so much is that she was smart enough to MOLD HERSELF (She did that, no one else) into an "Entertainer". She realized her limitations from jump----and she capitalized on everything she had going for her. Even with no voice, she turned out to be a stronger dynamo than Whitney Houston and has had more staying power. Janet was the shit. I still liked MADONNA a lot better, though. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 349 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Kola: She was a far better actress than she was a singer Mah: Agreed. In "Mahogany" and "Lady...", I think so much of her power was that she was so un-self-conscious and she threw her whole self into these roles, these women. I hate that she got so much flack for not "looking like Billy Holiday." It didn't matter, she captured enough of her spirit and her pain. I never heard of Lady Day until that movie, and then years later I read her (sortakinda) autobiography. And yes, there were key differences, and some creative license was taken, but I think La Ross did her justice in the ways that matter. Maybe if I had read the book first, I might have felt differently. Dunno. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 781 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
I agree Yvette. I would go a step further to say that I think Tupac was the most visually beautiful black man of our era. He was just astoundingly handsome. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 351 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Kola: I still liked MADONNA a lot better, though. Mah: She and Cyndi Lauper came out around the same time, and while Cyndi had the better voice, Madonna had the Package, the moxie, and the staying power. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 782 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Well, Mahogany----the film "Lady Sings the Blues" was a HUGE hit in 1972 and Diana Ross was nominated for Best Actress. And don't forget---DORIS DAY was originally set to star in the film----Berry Gordy bought the film rights and insisted that Diana Ross would be a better choice and he FINANCED the picture with Paramount distributing. Most of the objections to Ross starring in the film came from Jazz people (and they were right---Ross was NOTHING like Holiday)......and most of the objections came BEFORE the film was released. For instance....the famous James Baldwin essay was written because, ORIGINALLY....he campaigned against Ross being cast in the film. He loathed Diana Ross and couldn't just couldn't see it----but after the film was RELEASED...he became a huge fan of Ross. The fact is...."Lady Sings the Blues" is really not about Billie Holiday. Berry Gordy has always admitted that when he created MOTOWN....he used MGM, the legendary movie studio, as his pattern. And when he ordered the script for "Lady Sings the Blues"----he took a series of JOAN CRAWFORD film scripts of the 1930's ("Mannequin" and "Dancing Lady") and had them Re-tailored for Diana Ross (he saw her as a modern day Crawford---you would have to see Joan's early films to understand this, but he was right). They fashioned a "Crawford-like rise and fall love story" script and then they USED Billie Holiday and her music to infuse the script with a "selling point". The autobiography "Lady Sings the Blues" is VASTLY SUPERIOR to the story depicted in the Berry Gordy movie. And in actuality---Billy Dee is playing Clark Gable's role in "Dancing Lady" and Diana Ross is playing Joan Crawford's role in "Mannequin". By the way...Clark Gable and Joan Crawford starred in 9 films together. They were a dynamite team. Their 1933 film "Dancing Lady" is one of my all time favorite romances---mainly because so much of "Lady Sings the Blues" was STOLEN from it and it's fun watching two white actors acting out the Billy Dee-Diana Ross romantic scenes. Fred Astaire and the Three Stooges are also in the film. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 352 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
What I don't understand about Whitney is that she has all these women in her corner--her mother, Natalie Cole, Aretha Franklin, Cece Winans, and others... I guess grown people are going to do what they are going to do, but with all that FEMALE POWER and money couldn't they kidnap her ass, hold her at an isolated ranch until she dried out? Something? I know that's not how detox really works, the onus is on her, and addiction is a bitch, but admittedly from the outside looking in, it just seems like more could have been done, sooner. If only for her child's sake. I don't know...I'm sure they tried more than I realize. I just hope she kicks this monkey. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 353 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Kola, you are a wealth of film history and knowledge!!! Thank you! Why did JB loathe DR???? | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 783 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, Mahogany....MADONNA was a "pure" artist, which is what I loved about her. She was like Streisand in that way---but without the range of talent that Streisand had. But still, Madonna was an amazing caricaturist and very saavy about pop music---she created incredibly nuanced hit singles---and what I admired most about her is that she......absolutely LOVED and celebrated being a White Woman. She loved herself. That's why I liked her better than I did Janet and Whitney and Mary J.----because although I loved those 3 and related to them, they never seemed "STRONG" or "invincible" to me like Madonna did. There was an underlying self-hatred that always smeared the black women artists. Which is the same reason I can't get into West Africa's big woman superstar---Angelique Kidjoe (the blonde from Benin). I don't like black women in white women's drag. It's insulting. | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 209 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yeah, Kola--Do tell! Mah, did I miss an earlier post about Whitney? Are you saying she and Bobby are one of your favorite Black couples? They certainly get my vote as one of the most dysfunctional! In fact, I think part of the key to Whitney drying out is getting her AWAY from him. But, she's in LOVE yada yada yada... | ||
| Yvettep "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yvettep Post Number: 210 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I am surprised, Kola, you are so positive about Madonna. Have you ever heard bell hooks' take on the way she has used, fetishized, and then--when it suited her--dogged out Black men? | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 784 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
EVERYBODY loathed Diana Ross in her heydey, Mah....because she had LEFT "The Supremes"--betrayed Flo and Mary, because they felt she "acted white", because she "married a white man", because she "couldn't sing" (in comparison to what blacks were used to---there had never been a female singer like her in black music). James Baldwin, who really liked strong artists, Diana Ross was a "twit" with no depth, no grand voice and no real meaning to the black experience artistically. She was a POP ICON and "vulture". It wasn't until the film "Lady Sings" that he really truly looked at her....and he fell in love. Even though she sounded nothing like Holiday---she made those songs HER OWN and the soundtrack of "Lady Sings the Blues" remains the #1 selling album of Ross's career. She also, because the script was based on Joan Crawford scripts, was able to create Billie as a kind of "fictional character" that the audience fell in love with. Most people are ignorant, so they just figured that was Billie Holiday up on the screen. You will find MANY young people who won't even accept the REAL Billie Holiday. They want to see Diana's version. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 354 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Kola: That's why I liked her better than I did Janet and Whitney and Mary J.----because although I loved those 3 and related to them, they never seemed "STRONG" or "invincible" to me like Madonna did. Mah: Good observation. Do we really appreciate our black women strong? Or do we only reward those whose vulnerabilities are perpetually on display? We like Mary J. because she gets screwed over by men as much as we do. We feel sorry for Whitney, but perhaps her addiction makes us feel just a wee bit superior--and glad because otherwise, she might HAVE IT ALL (oh, wait, she's got Bobby Brown. Ne'ermind.) And Janet was "one of us" with the missing rib rumors and her expressed dislike of her "too big" face and fluctuating weight. Have we had a Black Madonna? Adina Howard tried, but missed the mark. Is this why Millie Jackson was marginalized? Or was that because she came across as more a caricature than anything else? Questions, questions, questions... Kola: I don't like black women in white women's drag. It's insulting. Mah: From your mouth, to RuPaul's ears. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 355 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yvette: Mah, did I miss an earlier post about Whitney? Are you saying she and Bobby are one of your favorite Black couples? Mah: Uh uh. Kola mentioned Whitney as compared to Janet and I went from there. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 785 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Yvette...yes, I read Bell Hooks essay....and I totally disagreed with her. First of all...black women refuse to acknowledge what ASSHOLES and SELLOUTS so many celebrity black men are---so I could give a shit that Madonna mistreated them. That actually made me like her more. Second of all....I don't see why Madonna SHOULDN"T steal and use "black culture"---coming from Detroit and being poor, that was "HER" culture, the only one she really knew. And she mixed it with Marilyn Monroe's image and other white icons and she made a UNIQUE blend that fit her art and gave her a podium for her voice. I felt that Madonna had a point of view...and the reasons Hooks castigated her are the very reasons I love Madonna. Madonna LOOOOOVED being a "White goddess". She loved herself. Which is exactly why I love Diana Ross, Streisand, Grace Jones---those women ALLL were narcissistic, loving their images and totally confident in their superiority. There's no indication in Grace Jones's appearance, message or art---that she wanted to be white. Not only did Grace Jones look like an African queen/goddess....she really did....she DEMANDED that the world accept her that way. ROSS was a glamorexic black version of a sophisticated diva---no white woman could match Ross for glamor and appeal when she was in her heydey. Not even CHER, if they would be honest, could touch Diana Ross's style, class and STAR QUALITY. Diana insisted that she was QUEEN....and she was. I didn't like bell hook's essay about Madonna and I thought Madonna was the shit. I loved Whitney Houston, Janet Jackson and Mary J. Blige---and WANTED to love them more than Madonna----but as artists, they just didn't have the depth and strength and creativity that Madonna had. As usual, there is this "conservatism" that Black American women have that can be boring. You know---like they can't have an orgasm unless it's for Jesus. In other words, they weren't "SAYING" anything or taking big risks. Madonna was ALWAYS controversial and had some shit to say and was totally wild and out of the box. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 356 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Kola: EVERYBODY loathed Diana Ross in her heydey, Mah....because she had LEFT "The Supremes"--betrayed Flo and Mary, because they felt she "acted white", because she "married a white man", because she "couldn't sing" (in comparison to what blacks were used to---there had never been a female singer like her in black music). Mah: That much I knew. I'm just surprised BALDWIN was on that bandwagon. She just seemed like too much of an easy target for someone of his caliber to set his sights on. Kola: James Baldwin, who really liked strong artists, Diana Ross was a "twit" with no depth, no grand voice and no real meaning to the black experience artistically. She was a POP ICON and "vulture". It wasn't until the film "Lady Sings" that he really truly looked at her....and he fell in love. Mah: Gotta love a man who can admit to such. Kola: You will find MANY young people who won't even accept the REAL Billie Holiday. They want to see Diana's version. Mah: That's a shame because these two very different artists deserve their due. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 786 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Grace Jones was a Black Madonna. So was Eartha Kitt. Donna Summer was a Black Madonna. Erykah Badu and Lauryn Hill are Black Madonnas. THOSE WOMEN....love themselves....are STRONG and DEFIANT....they have "something to say/a point of view".....they celebrate themselves, love their own images and DEMAND their voices be heard. While I loved hearing Mary J. Blige sing....I couldn't stand watching her videos...because I HATE to see her with Blonde hair. It was so degrading and insulting to me. Disgusting. Janet Jackson was another kiss-ass "please like me" artist....who catered to POP culture rather than set the standard....as her brother did. Well, one thing she set--was women's dancing. And I actually loved her first two albums---she was the shit in the beginning, but then she SOLD OUT. Whitney Houston was my FAVORITE---even more than Madonna----but then she totally self-destructed. _________________ Kola: I don't like black women in white women's drag. It's insulting. Mah: From your mouth, to RuPaul's ears. RUPAUL is a whole other story. I'm talking BLACK WOMEN...like "Beyonce" who basically are walking advertisements for Whiteness...totally big-upping the White Woman's image in everything they do. Conditioning our men to seek the Whiteness in a woman. I can't take Beyonce, although I like her voice and her beauty. But it's the way she SELLS OUT, constantly---and it's because she comes from a SELLOUT FATHER. It's in her to be like that. You will find many black girls who want to be Julia Roberts---not Sanaa Lathan. Just as I love Madonna for LOVING HERSELF....I don't love black women artists who reveal too much self-rejection. That ruins their appeal. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 787 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
My point earlier....was that Michael Jackson SET THE STANDARD. He dictated the landscape and MADE IT. He was like Madonna and I loved him to death until he turned WHITE and married white and began using his life to promote White Supremacy. He totally KILLED everything that was "defiant" and "triumphant" and just became a kind of supersonic high tech "nigger boy". | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 788 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Please note...I am not God. These are just my observations and "opinions". I'm sure there's folks who can't stand Kola Boof's artistry and I respect bell hooks's opinion---even though I don't agree with it. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 789 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
I loved Millie Jackson. She was the Kola Boof of the 70's. Just talking shit and telling it like it is and gett'n her some dick. I LOVED her. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 357 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Kola: Grace Jones was a Black Madonna. So was Eartha Kitt. Donna Summer was a Black Madonna. Erykah Badu and Lauryn Hill are Black Madonnas. Mah: But alas, they will never be received by black folks the way white folks (and black folks) received Madonna. Not to mention, they'll never be COMPENSATED nearly as well either. Kola: While I loved hearing Mary J. Blige sing....I couldn't stand watching her videos...because I HATE to see her with Blonde hair. It was so degrading and insulting to me. Disgusting. Mah: Agreed. She looked like the hooker from Car Wash (some BETComicView comedian STOLE my line!) Kola: I can't take Beyonce, although I like her voice and her beauty. But it's the way she SELLS OUT, constantly---and it's because she comes from a SELLOUT FATHER. It's in her to be like that. Mah: Not only in terms of physical presentation, but in material. I think that song, "Soldier" is a travesty for a few reasons, but mostly I look at Matthew Knowles who protected his prize horse of a daughter from "soldiers" all her life, and now he's pimping her to encourage other people's black daughters to pursue that dead end path. He wouldn't let Jay-Z touch her if it didn't benefit their bottomline. Kola: Just as I love Madonna for LOVING HERSELF....I don't love black women artists who reveal too much self-rejection. That ruins their appeal. Mah: What do you think of India.Arie and Alicia Keyes? I love India.Arie's two albums, and selected songs by Alicia Keyes. I think I.A got the shaft at the music awards, but what do they know? Both are talented artists, imo. But they each do different things well. And I LOVE Jill Scott. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 358 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Kola: I loved Millie Jackson. Mah: Girl, I used to get her name and Minnie Ripperton's name mixed up all the time! Not a mistake you want to make! Kola: She was the Kola Boof of the 70's. Just talking shit and telling it like it is and gett'n her some dick. Mah: Now, Kola Boof, you just finished saying you weren't God: Aren't you the Millie Jackson of the new millenium???? LOL. To-MAY-toe, To-MAH-toe | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 791 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
I absolutely adore JILL SCOTT. Now that's my kinda woman. India Arie is SHOCKINGLY strong---in the face of astounding rejection by the black community and such painful "outsider-ship"....she just keeps on coming. She is such a Queen. Alicia Keyes....I don't honestly like her, but the reasons are political, and that's very tragic and sad for both of us. She's OK. I like Mariah Carey A LOT better than her. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 792 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Lauryn Hill....Jill Scott....Erykah Badu....India Arie....Angie Stone....Sade....Liz Wright....Meshell N'degocel-WHATERVER.....Vanessa Williams Those kind of women are my favorites. Now Vanessa Williams is the SHIT to me. She is so confident and so much herself and although not the most talented....she takes her talent and beefs it up. She's got class and style for days. I love her. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 359 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
About Mariah... I still haven't read my Essence with her on the cover ("The Most Misunderstood Black Woman in America"). Artistically speaking, I'm a bigger fan of Alicia Keyes. I don't think she deserved being called about by Rick James like she was, but she's also not as "original" as some hype her to be. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 795 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
Well now, of course, to me...Mariah is NOT a "black woman". I consider her white. And she'll always be a second rate Whitney Houston....but I do like her NERVE....and her new CD sounds good. I don't know why I don't care for Alicia Keys. I think I'm prejudiced against her because of the Grammy thing with India Arie. And Alicia's music is SOOOOO contrived. She's like a rapper---she steals OLD RIFFS and melodies from classic soul and then she tries to make it seem like she's breaking out with something new. I don't care for her, but I admit---I'm probably prejudiced against her. I think of HER, more than Madonna, as stealing Black people's SPOT and culture. It's so obvious to me that Fantasia and India Arie deserve to be bigger stars than Alicia---but she's got a white mother, so Black America adores her more. | ||
| Cynnique Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
The success of stars is determined primarily by how many records they sell. Alicia Keys would be nowhere without her fans who apparently like her music. India Aire had her chance, as does Fantasia Barino. If their product doesn't command sales, maybe it's because, unlike you, fans focus on the music instead of the skin color of the artist. (If they had a test and asked a panel of ordinary people to listen to R&B songs performed by 2 new unseen artists, and the winner had light skin and the runner-up had dark skin, Kola - "I just loooove Joan Crawford and Barbara Stanwyck and Bette Davis" - Boof would still find a way to make it a color thing. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 364 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Cynique: The success of stars is determined primarily by how many records they sell. Alicia Keys would be nowhere without her fans who apparently like her music. India Aire had her chance, as does Fantasia Barino. If their product doesn't command sales, maybe it's because, unlike you, fans focus on the music instead of the skin color of the artist. Mah: But something besides pure talent drives sales. And the artist is as much the "product" as her songs are. Marketing based on sex appeal and "fantasy" is de rigueur, and skin color and hair factor into that. India.Arie predicted her own fate in a way with that song "Video." But someone told me she's all glammed up these days, but I haven't seen her. | ||
| Cynnique Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Macey Gray sold a lot of records, lookin like she looked. Because people liked her music. It is about marketing, but being pretty and light is no guarantee of an artist's success, and being less attractive doesn't doom a performer. Look at Missy Eliot. She's a full blown star. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 365 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
Cynique: Look at Missy Eliot. She's a full blown star. Mah: Yes, but Missy found a niche other than "sex symbol"/"hetero man's wet dream." She even landed a MAC ad, so good for her. India.Arie sold more than a few records too. But in terms of awards and Revlon contracts and movie deals and all the other perqs, neither she nor Macey is swimming in those. Macey got a commercial and a couple of movie bit parts, but she's gotten only a fraction of what Beyonce's gotten. Cynique: being pretty and light is no guarantee of an artist's success, and being less attractive doesn't doom a performer. Mah: Right, none of this is absolute. Being less attractive doesn't necessarily doom a star, but attractive female celebrities have an easier row to hoe if they are wiilling to pimp those looks. And "attractive" is in the eye of the consuming public, and subject to all of our biases. I'm listening to the Classic Soul station on Sirius right now, thinking how a lot of these talented female singers from decades past wouldn't stand a chance of "stardom" or even a record deal these days because they don't have the right "look." And of course that's about more than just color. [Aside...Seeing my little girls dance to "Mr. Big Stuff": Priceless] | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 366 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I think JLo is a prime example of this, for several reasons. She changed her look, became "less ethnic" by lightening and straightening her hair, and it looks like she had a nose job. If she hadn't made these changes, chances are she'd still be somebody's Fly Girl. Also, black women have had big booties and full lips forever, but on J.Lo and Angelina Jolie they have *broader* appeal. | ||
| Cynnique Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Well, MAH, nobody would deny that what you say is true. But, that's what show biz is all about, and it isn't limited to just black woman. Everybody who pursues a career strives to be glamoruous, sexy, and pretty. If they have talent, all the better. Why should black females be singled out and considered suspect if they take advantage of their looks and jazz up their appearance. Show biz is entertainment, a form of escape from the real world, not a grim social crusade. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 368 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
I agree this isn't limited to black women. And I don't think an image change on India.Arie's part is necessarily suspect, but like Jewel, she entered the game on a particular "note"--earthy, not your typical "Video" girl, etc. So when they glam up, it may not be suspect, but it is noteworthy. Is it a matter of the evolution of their personal style, or is it "selling out"? Whatever the case, it gets tongues wagging and has not a thing to do with their talent. | ||
| Mahoganyanais "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Mahoganyanais Post Number: 369 Registered: 01-2005 Rating: N/A |
But what *is* bothersome and suspect is when style exceeds substance. I understand the celebrity game is not a meritocracy, and all women should work whatever they have going for them, surface and otherwise. But I do cry foul when mediocrity is rewarded while greater talents are relegated to "back-up" status based on the superficial. As for showbiz vs. a grim social crusade, that's a false dichotomy. Socially conscious entertainers have often blurred that line. And any social crusade that benefits the underdog isn't grim in my book. | ||
| Cynnique Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
Well, as opposed to being fun, trying to give show biz a make-over is a hard, unrewarding task that can be considered "grim" in my book. And show biz is the last venue in the world from which to expect integrity. It is a phony, cut-throat world! Go reform the NAACP if you're looking for an undertaking that benefits others. | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 797 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
There's a certain CENSORSHIP that occurs when you have executives now who will not record someone as gifted as Nina Simone...Sarah Vaughn...Etta James...Curtis Mayfield....simply because they don't "photograph" well. This cheats the universe. God blesses people with certain talents...and because of shallow, materialistic U.S. culture....we are basically being told that unless a human being comes in the right Physical Package (of course--White Males like Bob Dylan can be as ugly as they wanna be)....then we don't get to see the GIFTS that God has put on the earth....gifts that would enrich and change our lives. India Arie was nominated for 8 Grammy Awards. Her CD, of all original songs that she wrote herself and played instruments on---was vastly superior to Alicia Keye's contrived, re-hash of Muscle Shoals Soul Music....yet India didn't get a SINGLE--not 1 out of 8 Grammy----while Alicia Keys, won 5 Grammys, and in every category where she won---she beat India Arie. That was some straight up BULLSHIT. It was like watching Joni Mitchell losing every single award to someone like Madonna. While I definitely recognize the talent, artistry of a "Madonna"----sorry, but she shouldn't pull 5 Grammys and someone of Mitchell's genius get NOTHING. India Arie's first CD definitely highlighted the fact that she was "special"---not some drop in the bucket, hence the 8 nominations. And for the first time ever....EVEN THE WHITE FOLKS were screaming "color prejudice". I couldn't believe it when people like Barry Gibb and Carlos Santana both mentioned that the arts have become so "looks oriented" that a pure acoustic artist like India Arie could be shafted for the newest Pop Video Princess. And the fact that Keyes is Bi-racial and that Arie is so chocolate and African looking DEFINITELY stood out as part of the ongoing, traditional RACISM that marks people's "view". Dirty dog motherfuckers like Quincy Jones and Rick James, of course, took their photos with Keyes and proclaimed as colorstruck black men do that "black comes in all shades"-----and of course, when they say this, they never mention that there are deeper shades of black they wouldn't be caught dead trying to create. They're just NIGGER motherfuckers with no integrity. Many white women entertainers like Bette Midler, Streisand and others who aren't RAVING BEAUTIES....are given far more consideration for their "talent" than someone like Fantasia---who is obviously gifted and has recorded a superior first CD......and yet because Black Men who run the radio stations in "Urban" markets don't want to FUCK Fantasia and have no sexual fantasies about her---it's an uphill battle just to get her music played. These men care NOTHING about talent and quality as black men did back in the old days. Meanwhile, no-talent bullshit studio screechers like Ashanti and Britney Spears and Amerie and CIARA are shoved down our throats night and day---perfectly phoney Plastic "sing what we MEN tell you to sing" Video-Models who, like Paula Abdul, have NO MESSAGE...NO VISION as artists...they can't perform LIVE for more than 3 songs and have to do ALL-STAR SHOWS rather than pull a 2 hour Patti LaBelle performance...cause their vocal cords can't stretch out whole words, let alone notes. And the real truth...Great Mother Cynique...is that although....ALL WOMEN......are burdened with some part of the "glam-ham" game.....it's still the BLACK WOMAN who is most often not even allowed to play in the big leagues. Everyone just sort of "IMITATES" her. Our lips and our asses are RE-INVENTED as the possessions of White Women soul singers...our mannerisms and our pain and heartbreak is STOLEN and surgically attached to Latina girls and the Bi-racial daughters of White women---biracial girls who never even grew up around real black women, but who all PARADE in the black woman's shoes---claiming her experience as their own and IMITATING her.....and doing it with millions of dollars of support and free P.R. from the same MACHINE that trampled our ancestors....and then when the REAL black woman does appear on the scene---not even the black community itself will support her, stand her up and cheer her----but they will for the sorriest black man grabbing his crotch and calling his mother a "bitch" in one breath while he praises the white man's mother in the next. HIM--the black community will move heaven and earth for. And of course this is the new deal since the Black man and the Hip Hop generation decreed that the black woman is "OBSOLETE". And these stupid black women are so WEAK today that they don't even stand up for themselves and demand a place for themselves. And last.... Mahogany you said it all: And any social crusade that benefits the underdog isn't grim in my book. __________ You do remember the scene in "Lady Sings the Blues" when after ALL the White Singers got done singing on the Lutz Radio Hour.....they ended the show without letting Billie Holiday sing??? And if it was wrong THEN.....why is not wrong now? Fantasia and India Arie are today's "underclass" and the reason is clear.....they're BLACK. Jill Scott is today's "underclass" and the reason is clear....although she's light skinned compared to Fantasia and Arie, she's built like a true West African Queen with a flat, wide nose and nappy hair. Cynique once mentioned "Lauryn Hill" breaking through....but forgot that Lauryn Hill came on the scene as PART of a very successful "RAP GROUP"----led by 2 Black men. This group was a top seller for 5 years before she cut a solo record...so her breakthrough doesn't count. She came in with male rappers as "the girl"----and LATER got past radar again, mainly because she is a GENIUS, far more talented than most female artists at that moment in time, and she caught Black America at a nostalgic period when they longed for the good old days she sang about. Of course...I love Lauryn for the same reason I love Grace Jones, Jill Scott and India Arie. I come from SUDAN and they're as close as I'll get to seeing African women in the limelight. So like many Africans in the U.S., those are the ones I look for.....and because they aren't treated FAIRLY.....it causes me to despise Alicia Keyes, Mariah Carey, Christina Ag-whatever and the rest of the "WHITE" girls who PIMP Black Culture (at least Madonna made her own Pop music and borrowed rather than pimped--not only that, Madonna borrowed more from Hollywood than blackness). | ||
| Cynnique Unregistered guest Rating: N/A |
When Dinah Washington and Sarah Vaughn and Ella Fitzgerald and Nina Simone, none of whom were conventional beauties, were in their heydays, there were no videos to show case them in. But, like Lena Horne, they did do cameos in movies, and did appear frequently on the weekly Ed Sullivan TV variety show, which was the crowning achievement for any performer. Also, these ladies were always featured in glamour shots on their album covers. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2611 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Kola, I appreciate your contrast of the Madonna to her Black female contemporaries. But agree with Mah, though, that Madonna being White is largely the reason WHY she was able to express her womanhood in the ways she did. Case in point: Janet Jackson showed a covered nipple for 2 seconds…and she STILL hasn’t recovered from that $#@+! I just don’t think Whitney could have gotten away with lesbianism, sex films/books, hints of sacrilege, etc. in the way that Madonna did. Even your beloved Diana Ross, who very much was the BOSS in many ways, never dared so much as even to allude to the kinds of kinky/wacky stuff Madonna did. I agree that Grace Jones probably came as close to being a Madonna as anyone. But she never enjoyed the level of fame/wealth of Whitney, Janet and Mary J. So maybe there was some trade-off there. The other women you mention (e.g., Kitt, Badu, Hill, etc.), I’m not so sure about because they don’t appear to me to be as sexually audacious as Madonna. But then, I haven’t really followed their careers very closely. So maybe I don’t know enough about them. I agree Alicia Keys is largely a fraud doctored up by long-time music Executive Producer Clive Davis. It’s like Davis has tried to make Keys into a female version of Stevie Wonder, WITHOUT the heart, talent, training or authenticity. And I agree wholeheartedly with you about Madonna using/abusing brothahs. Hey! If their @$$es are dumb enuff to get pimped-out by some White chick then they deserve to get f@#$ed like any other ho’. And I don’t care if they’re sports greats (e.g., Charles Barkley, Dennis Rodman, etc). ‘Sides. How’s what she did any different from what Eminem (any White Detroit native!) is doing with Dr. Dre, Fitty Cents, etc. now? And I guess it depends on where you live or what station you’re listening to. But I hear Fantasia’s and J. Scott’s music A LOT more than I do Alicia’s and Beyonce’s (though I seldom hear Arie’s as well). Btw: I notice you stepped out against Quincy Jones on this thread yet refused to when I ask you about his marrying White women. Hmmmmm? Interesting. Mah, Excellent observation about Pappy Knowles handling of his daughter and “prized horse” (Sad, but…HAHA!...true.) Beyonce. And I agree that these days there’s A LOT more that goes into one becoming ANY KIND of media star than actual talent/skill (e.g., how ‘cute’ you are, who you bone, how much money’s backing you, etc.). Because, I agree, no way in HELL would J LO have ANY KIND of film/music career. But today, even the GREAT though average-looking Aretha Franklin herself would struggle to garner much recording studio time. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 2619 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Kola: “[Michael Jackson] totally KILLED everything that was "defiant" and "triumphant" and just became a kind of supersonic high tech "nigger boy".” ABM: I know you’re f@#$ing with me in particular when you say stuff like that about Michael Jackson. And you know under a different set of circumstances, I might have to come-correct wit dat @$$. But I can’t even front: Dat $#@+’s as funny as hell! HAHAHAHA! That’s another one for the archives! I swear. You should register that “supersonic high tech ‘nigger boy’” with the Library of Congress, silk screen it onto tee shirts and sell them at Disney Land and UCLA basketball games. HAHAHAHA! | ||
| Kola Moderator Username: Kola Post Number: 810 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
ABM: I really LOOOOOVE Marlene Shaw's "Go Away, Little Boy". I love her voice. I've been reading about your Uncle, Mr. Stepney. HAHA I know your last name now because of your wife!!!! |
