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Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 236
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 03:26 pm: | 
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In another thread, ABM wrote:
"So I'll simply propose the following: Ladies, inside every pauper is a King. Are YOU Queen enough to help him find his granduer so that you and he can wrought an Empire?"
Mah: I really like this, for quite a few reasons. One is that a new "friend" of mine has essentially thrown down this gauntlet to me. I used to dismiss such utterances out of hand (when I heard about them in other people's relationships), but now I know from personal experience, the important thing is not the mere fact that the guy is a pauper, but rather *why* he's a pauper. Has he made some mistakes, but is sincerely trying to turn it around? A self-professed work in progress? Only human? Or, does he have an anger management or monogamy-avoidance problems that are everybody's fault but his?
In other words: some future Kings are content to act the Royal Fool, and the Queen can't be bothered.
As ABM observed, there is blame and failure on both sides--however men don't have to also contend with social realities of sexism that comes into play in these intra-racial affairs.
I say this: I believe (hope, pray) that healthy, deep intimate relationships are possible if both sides can put the Samsonite away, wipe the slate clean, and be willing to try and trust again. Easier said than done, I know. But what's the alternative? Give up? Not me. Not yet. But then again, I'm just getting starting (sort of)... |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 653
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 03:30 pm: |
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Well, well, well.....
Honey, I couldn't have said it better myself.
LMAO
....and wait'n for Mr. Big Foot to come up with his next sly DEAN MARTIN ka-snoodle.
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Yvette Perry
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 180
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 03:56 pm: |
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LOL! When I read that from ABM all I could think about are those letters to the editor in Black magazines and newspapers from incarcerated guys in response to some article about "men shortages"--letters saying how Black women need look no further than prisons for good men.
Ohhhhh-Kaaayyyy.
I'm not tryin' to take on any arts and crafts projects--I'll leave the fixer-uppers to the folks on HGTV! LOL!!!!! |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2432
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:19 pm: |
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Ladies,
I hear and feel you. But considering the enormity of troubles we face, I suspect we all must step outside of our confort zones if we're ever to have a chance of prevailing.
Or we may indeed be only a few generations away from virtual extinction.
I agree A LOT of Black men have "anger management or monogamy-avoidance" issues. Hell. To even mention that about a Black man seems almost inherently redundant.
'Course, the other side of pissed off man is often some shrill woman. And the other side of a lot of cheatin' men are hoochies (who don't even know there're such). |
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 246
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
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ABM: And the other side of a lot of cheatin' men are hoochies (who don't even know there're such).
Mah: And the other side of an unknowing hoochie is often an absent or otherwise trifling father.
And the beat goes on... |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2433
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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Mah,
And thank you for helping to make my point.  |
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 247
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
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ABM,
Anytime. We're on the same page, more often than not. [I said that to a guy recently, and I'll let you guess what page number he said we were on. You *are* allowed such jokies in Cell Block N, aren't you, ABM?]
Besides, I'm still trying to figure out why you've been accused here of being a chauvinist. |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2435
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:33 pm: |
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Mah: "Besides, I'm still trying to figure out why you've been accused here of being a chauvinist."
ABM: I'm trynah figure out the same thing. I wish chicks wouldn't jump to conclusions all the time. Because I haven't required my wife be barefoot and pregnant for nearly 10 years. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 660
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:39 pm: |
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Let me tell you something ABM.
I have kissed MANY men's asses during my day.
I have cooked, cleaned and waited on them hand and foot......catered to their sexual freak-zones.....paid their rent, paid their bail, paid their cell phone bill
...gotten slapped in the mouth MANY times, thrown down steps, led around on all fours on a dog leash with a BULLSEYE painted on the back of my ass, RAPED....
abandoned, lied on, betrayed,
I have GONE OUT OF MY WAY.....and not even talking about the SMILING, SUBMISSIVE SLAVE girl I transformed myself into for Thomas (who was actually worth it)......
SO DON'T COME TELLING ME THIS SHIT.
I'm too old for somebody who isn't already TOGETHER
I'm really worried that I might be frigid now to be honest.
I'm just really not impressed/interested in men lately.
But I want attention.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2437
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
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Kola,
Yeah...Well, I wanna a sausage/pepperoni pizza.
I hope we both get what we want. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 661
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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OH PLEASE, ABM.
You're a sexist pig and you KNOW it, boy!
Yeah.
We'll let Mahogany just think not until the right ISSUE thread comes up and you start trying to explain why we should understand...such 'n such....
It's just ME PERSONALLY---I seem to be the type of feminist who has an affinity for sexist men as long as they're suave, intelligent, clever and sexy like you were......SOOOO.....I let you slide.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2438
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:45 pm: |
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Kola,
But, seriously, I don't know what to say but...well, take some ownership and responsibility for what happened and do the best you can to get a better deal next time around.
I, personally, think there are A LOT of men who would love/honor you Kola. Because there's really A LOT about you that would make that quite easy.
But I also suspect that you - like MANY women - have a masochist streak that compels you to leapfrog over a dozen decent guys to get to that one fool. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 662
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:46 pm: |
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PLUS...ABM,
you're like the type/kind of men I grew up with in D.C. (my family is from the south).
SO I immediately felt comfortable with you. Much of your joking is old home week for me. You're like a "cooler" version of my dad and brother.
And your opinions are pretty great.
But I do consider you a "latent" sexist---or an "appeaser/pretender" type.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2439
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:47 pm: |
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...present company EXCLUDED, of course. |
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 248
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
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Kola: I'm just really not impressed/interested in men lately. But I want attention.
Mah: Kola, I think some woman would really do themselves a favor if they were honest enough to admit this.
Kola: It's just ME PERSONALLY---I seem to be the type of feminist who has an affinity for sexist men as long as they're suave, intelligent, clever and sexy...
Mah: Same with this. Some of us find sexist/suave/intelligent/clever very sexy, but it is one of those "careful what you wish for" and "be sure you know what you want" things.
These same guys who can curl your toes in bed and out aren't always the settling down/respectful kind. Which is cool...as long as when you tell yourself it's just about curled toes you really mean it (not *you*, Kola, but rather, the general *you*).
And bottom line? If he is all of the above, his currency is through the roof and he KNOWS it, which feeds the ego, and gives even less incentive for him to Act Right.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2440
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
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Kola,
I'm always a little perplexed by the sexist label.
Because I am profoundly appreciative of the skills and abilities of women.
I would not offer any advantage to a man over a woman simply because he has testicles.
But, I mean, come on now...There's TWO sides to every story, ladies. I just attempt to provide that (often silent) male perspective. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 663
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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The problem for women....ABM...is that we're too smart after a certain age.
And we also take less risks and if the "trust" alarm even squeaks one lil bit----we're done.
Like I said. I need therapy, because I'm becoming frigid.
Like I'm really, really excited to be going out with LAMBD....but then again......there's nothing there.
He's a playboy, has his "chicks" around D.C. I'm sure, probably can't stand my WOMANIST-OPINIONATED ass beyond the "glamour", semi-celeb part and would just love to bang me against the wall and make me scream in video-booty positions just to say.....
I put that bitch in her place, real good.
And then the line through the NOTCH on the belt.
OH.....
I guess you're right. I'm just being negative.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2441
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:54 pm: |
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Mah,
Well said. Additionally, the guys you describe learn early that if they are the $#@+ it's often best that they act like such. Otherwise, many women will suspect there's something wrong with him.
I remember dating a woman who's own sisters would ask me "What is a man who looks/behaves like you doing with my sister? I'd think you'd have women crawling all over you."
And one of them tried to give me som'. |
Jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:55 pm: |
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ABM-you mean get some |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 664
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:56 pm: |
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I would NEVER silence you ABM.
As I told your wife, that's your charm.
FEW MEN....are as talkative and honest as you are.
Communication is the KEY to getting to the good parts in people.
You're very easy to communicate with and you have a heart of gold.
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kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 665
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:58 pm: |
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AMEN Mahogany.
You're right about ALL that. LOL
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2442
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:58 pm: |
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Kola,
I certainly don't KNOW Lambd in a physical sense. But he seems like a straight smart, funny and lovable guy.
So, as long as you're safe and dude acts like he knows what he's doing, I say bone his goofy brains out.
Not only would you have a great time/memories. But you'd give Cynique something to fantasize about. |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2443
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
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Jackie,
"'Some' make you dumb so you don't need none."
Hehe! |
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 249
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
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ABM: I remember dating a woman who's own sisters would ask me "What is a man who looks/behaves like you doing with my sister? I'd think you'd have women crawling all over you."
Mah: Yeah. I'm seeing a guy who used to play in the NBA, and a male "friend" of mine wanted to know why this guy was dating *me*. I politely told this "friend" that perhaps this guy is interested in BRAINS as well as booty. A radical concept, I know.
Geez...between that and my 6 y.o. daughter telling me she wants to stay at Daddy's house because she doesn't "enjoy" me--good thing I got a thick skin! Sistah cain't catch a break! |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2444
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
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Kola,
Thanks. You should know that someone with your gifts, you heart and courage won't soon be alone.
Let go and fly, brown sparrow. |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2445
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
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Mah: Yeah. I'm seeing a guy who used to play in the NBA, and a male "friend" of mine wanted to know why this guy was dating *me*. I politely told this "friend" that perhaps this guy is interested in BRAINS as well as booty. A radical concept, I know.
ABM: See. We do NOT always think SOLELY with our d@%$'s. Some of use calculators...and athletic equipment. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 667
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
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LOL
Mahogany, I wish I had a daughter. I think it's a girl thing with daughters and fathers.
My sons do the same thing. They're very protective of me and sometimes cling and their dad gets jealous. And they BOTH look just like him.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2446
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:10 pm: |
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Kola,
You have a point. My daughters love their mommy but they LOVE their daddy.
I wonder if it's because I do whatever they want. Naw. It's gottah be more than THAT. |
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 250
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
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ABM: See. We do NOT always think SOLELY with our d@%$'s. Some of use calculators...and athletic equipment.
Mah: No, it's *still* all about the "d." The guy in question was showing me some financials for a deal he's working on, starting explaining what EBITDA was (forgetting that my undergrad degree is in Economics). I smiled and said, "I know" and then proceeded to ask an intelligent question. He looked and said, "You know my d*ck is hard right now, right?"
Kola, in my daughter's case, it's a "Daddy lets us watch more TV" thing. But she made up for it today, giving an Oscar-worthy "I don't want to leave Mommy!" performance. *applause, applause* She's so dramatic; NO idea where she gets it from... ;-) |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 668
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:20 pm: |
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LOL....
.....all my life....Mahogany..all my life
I have been called one thing.
"Dramatic".
I don't know why...I don't do it on purpose....I really just think I'm being myself
....and then someone quips, "You are so dramatic!"
It used to tickle Thomas. He would just laugh at me and watch me and laugh. And when I'd get mad and ask what's so funny. He'd go...."You so dreematic, Gearl."
ugh!
And then I'm assuming you heard the interview with me and my mom.
That's just how I talk---because I learned English from watching Soap Operas. But people make fun of how I talk.
One time I called 411 to get information. The black lady operator said, "Stop sounding so actressy and tell me what City and State!"
I broke into tears.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2448
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:21 pm: |
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Mah,
Yeah. You're kid is playin' you both. One of MANY negative consequences of divorce. Hopefully you and the ex and convene on how to avoid sending mixed signals to your kid. I truly hope you all can work through things.
Mah: "He looked and said, "You know my d*ck is hard right now, right?"
ABM: And, like your point is...'What'? |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 670
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
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Mahogany----he actually said that to you!!!!!!!
boy.
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kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 671
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
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I meant....BOING.
Lol |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2449
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
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Kola,
Hey. Maybe you can use all your dramatic energy to write/produce/direct a soup opera. You can call it "The Black and the Beautiful". |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 672
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:25 pm: |
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But don't you get a kick out of making men's dicks hard in the most inappropriate places?
I love doing that!!!!
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2450
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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Kola,
You'd gottah remember: This guy used to play in the NBA. That's probably the suavest foreplay he's ever had to use. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 673
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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I would love to write a soap.
I tried here on aalbc.com but it flopped.
Not to mention---it's too grueling and difficult when you're also writing tons of other stuff.
But I learned English from Rachel Cory, Iris Carrington and Felicia Gallant of "ANOTHER WORLD"----so unfortunately, I do come off a little like Joan Crawford at times.
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kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 674
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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Oh.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2451
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:28 pm: |
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Kola,
Yeah. But if you wake that bronco up, you'd better be prepped to ride'em. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 675
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:29 pm: |
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Na-UH!!!
Not in America.
Weeeee
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Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 253
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
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Kola,
I haven't heard your interview yet, but I'm looking forward to it. And I would never laugh. I've had too many times in my own life of people thinking I was talking "for effect" when really I was just me being me, so I understand.
And Joan Crawford was the baddest b*tch. Those shoulders!
And yes, I love being "naughty" in inappropriate places.
ABM,
Yes, my Kola Jr. is *trying* to play us. But her dad and I have been talking about consistency since we started down this path, and I try to keep my nose out of his "household" as much as I can. He volunteered the info that the TV watching spiked recently because he needed an electronic babysitter while he unpacked (new house). |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2452
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
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Kola,
I think you should have continued the soap but just did so at a rate in which that comfortable for you. Because it seem a bit harried. There were a few to many characters too soon. And the way you utilized the pics distract from - no added - one's ability to follow the storyline.
Just my 2 cents. I still think you'd be a GREAT soap writer. Plus you could pull a Spike Lee and star in it too. |
Delores
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 03:12 am: |
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Damn I wish I had seen this thread before I posted in the other thread. anyways. my eyes are to droopy to cut and paste. And ABM I just had a medium sausage pizza. Envy me.
~Delores |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2477
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 09:00 am: |
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Delores,
Thanks for sharing your opinions.
Being a Black man, I find it sad that – by your comments – you appear to be better able to relate to White guys than Black ones. But, I guess if you look more White than Black, I can see how some brothers might reflexively question the depth of your 'inner Blackness’.
I’m not saying that’s right/fair. It isn't.
But as you can see what regularly occurs here, we ALL have a LONG way to go on these issues.
I wish you all the best in your pursuit of love. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 683
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 11:44 am: |
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But, I guess if you look more White than Black, I can see how some brothers might reflexively question the depth of your 'inner Blackness’.
I’m not saying that’s right/fair. It isn't.
________________
YES IT IS....right and fair!!! Shit, it's HUMAN and it's one of the things that separates slave stock from ruling stock.
What is it with you Americans, ABM? When are you going to get off the plantation?
And I doubt very seriously that black men question her depth of inner blackness---if anything, they cherish every ounce of her that's NOT BLACK. She has NO PROBLEM finding black men, it's just that there aren't that many good black men. Because the statistics in this society are set up to where----they don't have to be "good". And since they have an over abundance of women to run through and no interest in provincial barriers such as race, kinship, reproduction and preservation, formal unity, etc.---they get coddled and rewarded for being irresponsible, insensitive, macho, "cool" assholes.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2480
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 11:55 am: |
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Well, Mz Kola. Ize likes it on dis hur "plantation".
See. Ize get 3 square meelz ah day ahv pig feets, chittlin's and MOlasses. Ize only haftah work 18 hours ah day. And ah gitz mah pickuh pune ifah pic dah mos' cot'n in a weke.
<<scattin'&grinnin'>> |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2481
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:08 pm: |
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Kola,
Seriously. What the rules? Should I want to mate only one whose skin color matches my own? Or should I mate with someone darker than me? If I'm very fair conplexioned, should I mate with a fullblooded African? If so, which tribe/nation is preferable?
Just how FAR are we to take the this color-coordinated mating anyway? |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 684
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:17 pm: |
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No.
You're talking with your dick, ABM.
Because obviously, after choosing your own Hazel-eyed wife, you still are unable to shake the modern idealism that dictates that an "extraction" of a black woman is more harmonious than the black woman herself.
Be man enough to look that elephant in the eye and admit that you are (a) a product of your environment (b) never been challenged about it and (c) you received it not from your own world (if you're claiming to be black)--but from your slave master's world.
It wounds me---every time I hear black men take up for/defend/come to the rescue of women like DELORES...the poor, downtrodden mixed race person....and then fail to EVER even think about coming to the rescue of our real mother. Our real dark black mother who is invisible and dying and positively HAS TO BE a "tough hard bitch" just because of the fact that she is the ONLY WOMAN on this planet....who is totally unprotected and uncared for by the men of her race. And that is...a reality. One that keeps our whole race submerged beneath a Yellow Buffer Race (that can never "fit" in all the way) and a White dominant race that plays the two against each other.
People like Delores and yourself constantly preach all this "inclusion" shit....but that inclusion, just like the revolution, never seems to come for our real mother. It never seems to save her or comfort her or give her the courage and AFFIRMATION to be herself.
We black people never have a "healthy" mother to come from....because black men are always in the proces of KILLING her.
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ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2482
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:26 pm: |
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Kola,
Nice speech, Champ! But you didn't respond to my last post.
I'm looking for some practicality here.
HOW-oh-HOW my African Queen Mother am I ever to cleanse the slave from my soul?
Should I abandoned by Hazel-eyed (you'll love that they were sky-blue when she was a kid) wife and children, run off to the depths of 'darkest' Africa and impregnate every blue-black nubile woman I can find?
Again. What's the plan?
Kola: "You're talking with your dick, ABM."
ABM: Oh. So THAT's how that sticky stuff got on my computer monitor. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 685
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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And to be honest with you---
I really don't give a fuck who black men date anymore.
DELORES would be more in your corner than I am, because I've lost all respect.
And while you're playing that "WHO DO I DATE" bullshit....
WE ALLLLL KNOW that there's one group of WOMEN that very few Black Men DATE....so that COLORIST FACT blows your question right out of the water.
You ask that question....as though "black wives" come in a colors to match their population ratio.
For instance---if 88% of black women are dark brown to deep black-----why is it that 75% of "Black Wives" are light brown to vanilla eggshell colored?
OBVIOUSLY....MR. ABM......"motherfuckers already KNOW"
Just how FAR we are to take the this color-coordinated mating anyway?
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kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 686
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
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---if 88% of black women are dark brown to deep black-----why is it that 75% of "Black Wives" are light brown to vanilla eggshell colored?
OBVIOUSLY....MR. ABM......"motherfuckers already KNOW"
Just how FAR we are to take the this color-coordinated mating anyway?
__________________
THE COLOR-COORDINATED MATING as you call it.....is already in place.
It's purpose is to fade, obliterate and eliminate "black people". And it's very telling that you asked your question without first acknowledging that fact.
You can accept COLOR-COORDINATED "dating" as long as it coordinates for lighter women.
But the suggestion that "Black People" shouldn't mate with their own suddenly becomes............"color-coordinated" dating.
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kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 687
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
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People like Delores and yourself constantly preach all this "inclusion" shit....but that inclusion, just like the revolution, never seems to come for our real mother. It never seems to save her or comfort her or give her the courage and AFFIRMATION to be herself.
We black people never have a "healthy" mother to come from....because black men are always in the proces of KILLING her.
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abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: abm
Post Number: 2483
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 12:50 pm: |
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Kola,
I think your maths a bit faulty.
36% of all Black women are married. If 75% of them are lightskinned, that means 24% of ALL adult Black women are married/lightskinned. But that can't be since you say only 12% (100% - 88%) of ALL Black women are NOT dark brown - deep black.
BTW: My wife in NOT lightskinned. She's more a caramel brown, ala a Janet Jackson. |
mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 258
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 03:21 pm: |
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ABM: Kola,
Seriously. What the rules? Should I want to mate only one whose skin color matches my own? Or should I mate with someone darker than me? If I'm very fair conplexioned, should I mate with a fullblooded African? If so, which tribe/nation is preferable? Just how FAR are we to take the this color-coordinated mating anyway?
Mah: Every time this discussion comes up, this right here is where I get stuck...and eventually have to tune out.
Just what is the answer? Practically speaking? (as ABM noted). Spreading and speaking truth (and arguing as to what Truth is) is a necessary start, but it is not an end to itself. What do we do in our daily lives to affect social change and pursue social justice, for ourselves and others? In other words, naming the problem is not a solution.
It reminnds me of talking to white people about white privilege. What do I want? For them to acknowledge that white privilege is real, today? Yes, absolutely. Beyond that cognizance, what do I want them to do? Give up that privilege whenever possible and do everything else in their power to create a more just world. A tall order? Maybe so, but if asked, that's my answer. For white people, there are countless things to do in terms of jobs, housing, finances, personal relationships and education towards these ends--if they so chose.
Now, back to this discussion: What are light-skinned people to do? What about the rest of us?
Kola: Be man enough to look that elephant in the eye and admit that you are (a) a product of your environment (b) never been challenged about it and (c) you received it not from your own world (if you're claiming to be black)--but from your slave master's world.
Mah: So we have the acknowledgment, however debatable* (step 1), but what is the practical solution (step 2)? How then, shall we LIVE?
*I say "however debatable" because ABM (or any other person) may rightfully chafe at the assumptions and generalizations you're making. See, again, without something practical and tangible to point to to DO, there's nothing else to do but make assumptions about what is going on in people's minds. You can find people who think like this, of all colors. And you can also find people who DON'T think like this, in all colors. And the numbers don't matter, because just because 99 people who look like me think X does not mean that I to think "X."
As long as you continue to operate on the assumption that you *know* what's what in someone's mind based on how they look and whom they married, you will be limited not only in your own understanding of the dynamics at work, but also in your ability to reach people with what you have to say.
No one wants to be told that they are in the dark and that someone who has all the answers has arrived to enlightened them--not because they are in the dark, but rather because they're more apt to hear someone who shares their plight has arrived to take the journey *with them*. Lead, yes, but be co-sojourners above all else.
And leaders must first gain the trust of those whom they lead. But certainly not by berating them and shining their considerable light on their ignorance. Trust is earned over time, with humility.
Speaking of sojourns and humility, I think of Sojourner Truth, standing before all those white folks giving her famous "Ain't I a Woman" speech. Fiery? Indeed. Did she mince words? Hell no. But her humility shone through. Humility to God and to her people. Not a doormat, "please Miss Ann" kind of humility, but rather the strategic kind. Any fool can be arrogant.
I think of Harriet Tubman. She has said, to paraphrase, "I could have freed more slaves if I could have convinced more that they *were* enslaved." Now, I can't see The Conductor spending too much time trying to convince these non-believers, or bully anyone into going with her (though I have often wondered if she had to ever use any strong-arm tactics so as not to leave an "witnesses" behind, but that's another digression for another day).
Back to Harriet Tubman: in time, her reputation preceeded her, and it was on that reputation, I'll venture, that people were willing to follow her--that and their own unquenchable desire to be free.
So, yeah, some slaves don't know they were slaves. But how do you know what kind of slave you're dealing with until you ask her to RUN. Do something practical...
How then, shall we LIVE?
Kola: People like Delores and yourself constantly preach all this "inclusion" shit....but that inclusion, just like the revolution, never seems to come for our real mother. It never seems to save her or comfort her or give her the courage and AFFIRMATION to be herself.
Mah: Says you, Kola. The "nevers" and "always" are what I find so problematic here. I know personally, second hand, and have read about many dark-skinned woman who feel affirmed and comforted by black men. But more importantly, they are at peace because such affirmation and comfort is not necessary to their self-image and well-being.
Do they, like me, loathe the colorist and racist world in which we live? Absolutely. But they aren't losing any sleep over what black men do and don't do for them, or whether they find them attractive, marriage-worthy, etc.
Now, do they feel betrayed when black men marry/date white? Sometimes, and we bitch about that too. But whatcha gonna Do? One answer: Living well is the best revenge.
Well, it's not entirely true that this shit doesn't faze us. We raise our daughters and sons to love themselves, black people, and blackness--but we do not tell them whom to marry and date. Some of us would be disappointed if our children "marry white", and some of us wouldn't care. But all of us recognize that grown folks are going to do what grown folks are going to do. Freedom: it's a beautiful thing.
And finally, we get together monthly, drink and eat too much, and bitch and moan about it (black men et al). But besides that, our mere daily lives (as mothers, artists, lovers, wives, teachers, and other professionals), every breath we draw is in constant and natural opposition to those who devalue us. And like Celie said, "But I'm still HERE."
And hell: we look good doing it.
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kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 688
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 04:12 pm: |
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You're right, Mahogany. I don't care.
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cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: cynique
Post Number: 2224
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 04:44 pm: |
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ABM, may be speaking with his dick, Kola, but your reaction is also primitive in nature. It stems from that primal xenophobic area of your female brain, the hemisphere that is wired to respond with jealousy and envy toward any other female perceived to be a threat. Nowadays, most women are able to control this impulse, but it's like you're still conditioned to respond in a hostile manner to the foreigness of "mixed" females. But mixed woman don't have to apologize for what they are, anymore than short women have to apologize for their height. It ain't their fault. |
abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: abm
Post Number: 2486
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 06:17 pm: |
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Ladies,
Funny. I agree with much of what Kola argues.
I agree we men often perceive Black women who appear more White to be more beautiful than those of you who are darker. I'm just not sure what to do about it other than adopt some practices that are just as coercive (and perhaps corrosive) as those that have gotten us to where we are now.
However...
I've also observed that many lightskinned women prefer darker brothers. Actually, I think all things being equal, MANY women - Black, White and other - have them a hankering for them some dark chocolate brothah.
So maybe the colorism issue isn't as one-sided as it appears.
Regardless, I doubt, Kola, we'll likely ever look purely 'African' again. |
Delores
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 06:19 pm: |
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Hmm..where should I start.
Kola,
If by preaching inclusion you mean I preach accepting mixed people as african american, then I disagree. I frankly don't care about that. What I do have a problem with is blaming mixed folks for all the problems in black society. also when I was first reading the post about the fate of the black man/woman, i read it out loud and had friends say "that sound like the same stuff white supremicists say". If you're ok w/ sounding like that and think it's only fair because of the racism and white supremacy that has dominated this culture for centuries, by all means spew your hatred. We'll just have to agree to disgree. I don't think ABM has come to my rescue or anything nearly as much as he has shown you (a REAL black woman) respect and admiration.
Just because he thinks relationship problems are not just to blame on the black man doesn't mean he's hates the black woman. I find it interesting that anyone who disagrees with you in these threads is instantly disrespecting REAL black women as a whole. |
abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: abm
Post Number: 2487
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 06:32 pm: |
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Ladies,
I don't think we should gang-up on Kola. That's easy 'high school' crap.
She's identifying important issues that we as a people have yet to reconcile. And they negatively effect us all. I think we ALL in fairness would attest to that.
Kola, I apologize for being a bit flippant earlier.
Truly, I was simply trying to steer the discourse in a direction that we can perhaps begin to determine WHERE to go beyond the blame, accusation and resentment.
I think part of the 'problem' is we AA's have no real, tangible connection to Africa.
Africa is really only a 'concept' for most AA's. We know 'it's' out there, on the other side of the world. But it's soil, language and people don't really mean anything to us beyond the fact that SOME (not necessarily ALL) of our ancestors came from there a 200 years ago.
So why should we attempt to mirror that which we have no real connnection and affinity for?
Add to that the REAL issue of malcontent between AA's and native Africans, and you have imbued within AA's a f*#$ Africa mentality.
I think we must address those issues FIRST before we ever have a chance to resolve the colorism issue...assuming such is even possible. |
Cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 07:13 pm: |
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I think everybody should do as MAH suggests and just try to live their lives with humanity and grace. I don't think anyone has an obligation to adhere to someone else's self-serving agenda. When we condone the biased contentions that are Kola's idea of the truth, then we open the door for her detractors to adopt her tactics to advance their own cause. So on and on it goes. ABM tries to appease Kola, Deloris tries to reason with her, I try cut her down to size, but nothing will change her mind. To try and deter Kola from her losing cause is, in itself, a losing cause. |
abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: abm
Post Number: 2489
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 07:29 pm: |
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Cynique,
Most great enterprises started out with someone else calling it a "losing cause".
Your saying such should fortify Kola's resolve, not diminish it. |
mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 259
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 11:09 pm: |
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Kola: You're right, Mahogany. I don't care.
Mah: What does that mean? That somewhere I wrote that you don't care. Where?
Or, you don't care that I'm right--about whatever it is I'm right about?
Color me stumped. |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 693
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
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Well, Mahoghany...that was just my way of not quarreling with you.
Trying to argue with you is like getting into it with my sister Spring--and I just don't like to or want to. I'd rather be friends.
But I basically felt that your post was the typical dismissal that light skinned women give to these kind of issues and realizing that you're not going to understand where I'm coming from (and that goes for Great Mother Cynique and Delores, too)...I just didn't want to get into it.
These issues are extraordinarily sensitive and I've never once really talked to lightskinned women who fully understand, and frankly, I don't really think they care, because like black men---they don't have to.
It's not something "crucial" in their lives...the way it is for girls like CELIE, Sophia and Shug and Kola.
And I find that Black American women just all want to be light anyway. They think that's being "black". So they can't relate to my URGENCY in trying to save my "seed". They don't value what I value.
I just get very, very depressed about this issue and I don't think others can understand.
I was trying to just LET IT GO.
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 260
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 11:43 pm: |
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Thanks for clarifying. |
Cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 11:50 pm: |
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ABM, anti-colorism is not an enterprise, it is a social constrict which stumbles because it seeks to dictate people's choices. I have no doubt about Kola's resolve, but is she making any progress?? Apparently she is getting little more than lip service from her power base or she wouldn't be so frustrated in her determination to bring about change. |
Delores
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 01:27 am: |
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To write or not to write, that is the question.
Kola,
I have only known about your existence less than a week but I must say that I respect you greatly for being a person who knows where she stands. In a way I understand where you are coming from.But at the same time you are so right when you say I can never FULLY understand, because I have not faced the same experiences of "real black woman" has. However that doesn't mean I don't care.
I understand how you feel that black families need to stay within the race in order not to have a entire culture wiped out. I know what it is to not grow up with a culture. My parents "americanized" (my mom is from the islands) me. It's like floating around with no roots.I think this has influenced my decision to probably not have children.I don't want to raise them as people without a culture. So I understand why you fight so desperately to save your roots.
However, I just can't stop but think how similar your beliefs and words are to those of white supremicists. And also your attacks on individuals who have no control over their skin tone rather then the society that encourages it bothers me. But you are totally allowed to have those feelings.
I hope I am not sounding like I am dismissing the problems facing black women. I do believe they have incredible odds to fight in order to find happiness, love, and success. I truly do believe that. But I believe some women (not all) are too quick to use these barriers to explain everything going on in their life. These play a role in their problems, of course, but women need to give themselves a real critical look to discover what they are doing to that makes these barriers even harder to overcome. That's what I mean. I think people need to realize and acknowledge the social barriers and racism in society.But they also need to take personal responisiblity for the actions that hold them back.
Hope that makes sense. And thank you Kola for the post in the Gas thread.
I could see myself spending HOURS having a conversation with you in person. Godspeed and good luck on you interviews and tour.
~Delores |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 694
Registered: 02-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 01:49 am: |
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No, Delores
Here's the DIFFERENCE between me and "White Supremacists/Racists"
(1) I do not believe that I am superior to them, more beautiful than them or that God loves me more.
(2) They are welcome in my home---to eat the food I cook, to sleep in my house, to shower----BUT NOT to steal my soul and my identity.
(3) I love all human beings and teach my sons to love, respect and cherish ALL human beings. I have never once told my sons, "Don't marry a White person". WHAT THEIR FATHER AND I "HAVE" DONE....is taught them to value and love their own IMAGE, to hold the image of their mother SACRED and to have the integrity and self-respect, in a world that hates black men---to GIVE BIRTH to their own image.
(4) There is no where in MY CULTURE..in the American Indian culture, the Asian or any other race....that WHITES can claim that we did not welcome them, trust them, befriend them and CELEBRATE them and their differences. So don't even come at me with that crap.
(5) I have had SEVERAL interracial relations...and I am NOT AGAINST interracial relationships.
But what you have here in America is an EPIDEMIC of self-hate. LOVE has nothing to do with this "Coordinated Choosing" by skin color of the WOMB---which is just a way to continue what has always been done to black folks, WIPE THEM OUT. You keep trying to act like it's NORMAL that "most" black men would prefer a woman who looks little like their own mothers and sisters....you keep trying to advance the idea that it's NORMAL that 90% of Black Men who become WEALTHY, SUCCESSFUL only choose "White" or Non-Black women as their wives. You expect me to buy the bullshit that "black women" simply have bad attitudes and "baggage"----in other words, black women, and the ones with DARK SKIN in particular, have some "INATE" gene that's fucked up that other women don't have.....and that other women are more accomodating than the black women who do cartwheels for black men, take extended abuse, share men and shoulder all kinds of humiliation-----only to have their man run to some woman like yourself and WHINE that "she's got so much attitude---oh, they're such bitches."
If anyone sounded White Supremacist, it was your stereotypical comments more than once about "Black women" and their share of the "Blame"----as if Black men who run to you TREAT BLACK WOMEN the same way they treat you in the first place. In this country...I can testify, that Black men treat black women almost TO A SCIENCE...according to their skin color and hair texture and facial features.
That's called....RACISM.
And the most discrimination, the most disallowment and mistreatment that I have EVER experienced in this country....was from BLACK MEN....not WHITE.
But I know who I am, therefore, I refuse to take part in the "colorist" bullshit and I realize that in America....I am put in a situation where I have to OVER-compensate for the fact that I do live in a racist, colorstruck society.....one in which most of the "yellow girls" calling themselves "BLACK" don't give a fuck about black women or how black women are treated.....because COLORISM is the insurance that they don't have to.
What you encounter in me...dear sister...is that I'm NOT A NIGGER.
I don't think so little of myself that just ANYBODY can be me.
I am proud to be black, intensely knowlegable and proud of my culture and my ancestors and am not a HYPOCRITE who praises them with words but then REFUSES to bring them back into this world.
When you speak to me....you are speaking to a Black Woman who TRULY, TRULY LOOOOOOVES black people.
That's what I am. And I am not "confused" about my race or what race is or what it means.
RACE is a social construct.
But COLOR...is not.
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Delores
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 02:20 am: |
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when I say women have baggage I do not mean black women only, I mean ALL women. but since we are talking about black women in this forum that is who I mention. But that doesn't mean I am blind to the baggage and attitudes that women of all colors have.I have never said "all" black women have baggage and issues and attititude.I have always stressed "SOME" because it is only SOME women who have these issues and SOME women who choose not to address these problems. This accounts for SOME of the "problem" of color choosing that SOME black men do. But I whole heartedly agree that white supremacy,self hate , etc. play the LARGEST role. But like i've said before I try to point out the problems that SOME individuals have and how they fit into the equation.
I also agree that there is extreme racism within the black community (how men treat women, vice versa,). I alsorealize that I get treated differentlyby some black men because of my color. I didn't mean my statements to say they run to white women etc.or people "like me" because we are "better". But i guess whatever I say will always be twisted to the extreme. So I am done for now. |
Delores
Unregistered guest
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 02:24 am: |
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oh.....color is not a social construct. but how the colors are treated is. so start blaming the structure and not the "yellow people".
~Delores |
abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: abm
Post Number: 2496
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 07:02 am: |
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Mah-Mah,
Far be it from me to wallow in semantics. But my dictionary defines “enterprise” as “a project or undertaking that is especially difficult, complicated, or risky”. It seems to me Kola’s attempt to abolish colorism qualifies as such.
Would you agree?
And who’s to say that what Kola is attempting to do won’t, in the long run, prevail? Because the core of what Kola asserts seems ennobled, even if her methods often appear unsavory. |
abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: abm
Post Number: 2497
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 07:07 am: |
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Correction: Regarding my “May 01, 2005 - 12:50 pm” post. Apparently, my math was “faulty” as well. I should have said, “...means 27% of ALL...”, not “...means 24% of ALL...”.
Sorry Kola. |
abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: abm
Post Number: 2500
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 07:47 am: |
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Ladies,
It is interesting that some of you criticize Kola because you feel she apparently attempts to, according to Cynique, “...dictate people's choices...” Because I wonder how is what she does any different that of almost ANYONE else.
Virtually everything we think, see and do – be it good, bad or indifferent - is a consequence of the dictates of others.
Our language, hairstyles, fashion sense, choice of college, etc. et. al. are ALL born from the overt or indirect urging or rebuttal of others.
It’s only just the relative styles, merits and degrees to which others influence us that may differ. |
mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 262
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 07:55 am: |
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ABM,
Cynique used the word "enterprise", not I. So perhaps your entire post was meant to be directed at her and not me?
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abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: abm
Post Number: 2502
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:29 am: |
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Mah-Mah,
You are correct. And I apologize for the error.
I guess my wife is right: It's time for me to see the optometrist. Hehe!
All,
I have continued part of this post at the “Beauty Is What Beauty Does?” thread (below). Please enjoy.
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/2152/5060.html?1115123055 |
mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 263
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:59 am: |
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ABM: It is interesting that some of you criticize Kola because you feel she apparently attempts to, according to Cynique, “...dictate people's choices...” Because I wonder how is what she does any different that of almost ANYONE else.
Mah: In saying you find this interesting, are you suggesting Kola is being singled out? I beg to differ.
It is interesting that you don't see the obvious answer to your own question/observation: no one posting here (except you, by implication) has suggested that Kola is unique in her efforts, and people's reactions to her "urging and rebuttals" aren't unique to her either. If it were, by your own example, we would all be dressed alike and wearing the same hairstyle.
In EVERY aspect of our lives--as you pointed out--conscience people are aware of societal dictates and reject and accept at will.
How is Cynique chafing at what she perceives as Kola "dictating" any different to Cynique chafing at low-rider jeans, for example? Her rebuttal (presumably) is to simply choose not to wear them. There's no need for her to call the folks at Old Navy (or The Fashion Industry) and tell them to stop trying to dictate what she wears, because they are not engaging her directly. She objects with her pocketbook. She might even talk to young women in her sphere of influence about how they choose to dress. This is where your analogy fails. Calvin Klein (to the best of my knowledge) doesn't have a message board in which he "dictates" the latest fashion trends. But if he did, and it was open to consumer feedback, would you say he was being singled out somehow if those of us who didn't want to follow those trends registered our disagreement on his message board?
I've had black people tell me I should go to a HBCU. I've had my mother tell me I should go to college in state. But I rejected those "dictates" too and didn't do either.
So, you're right. We're being dictated to all the time. And the free thinkers among us chafe until the cows come home at individuals and institutions who would seek to define or direct us in ways we find objectionable or limiting.
In terms of political and cultural matters, just because I disagree with your solution or methology, doesn't mean I don't agree that there's a problem. |
mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 264
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 09:07 am: |
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**Calvin Klein (to the best of my knowledge) doesn't have a message board in which he "dictates" the latest fashion trends. But if he did, and it was open to consumer feedback, would you say he was being singled out somehow if those of us who didn't want to follow those trends registered our disagreement on his message board?**
Let me clarify: not only register our disagreement with what CK thinks the new fall colors should be, but register objection to fashion industry dictates in general, to the emaciated models and such, for example. To talk apples and apples here, you would have to say that CK was being singled out by such objection. Not true, because if he puts his artistry out there for public consumption, he has to be willing to accept a myriad of responses--as does every designer.
You could argue that if CK was criticized but Hilfiger got a free pass for promoting the exact same trends that would be one thing. But I'm not aware of that happening in fashion, nor in the equivalent in this discussion. |
Cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
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"Dictating choices" is almost an oxymoron. If you make a personal choice, it's because you have resisted being dictated to. My complaint about Kola was that she wanted her choice to be the only option. So she is, indeed, trying to market her product.And what is her product? A remedy to eliminate race mixing. If people choose not to buy into this, it is their prerogative. |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 698
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 01:04 pm: |
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But this society ALREADY dictates choices.
That's just the point, Mother Cynique.
And you SUPPORT those racist/colorist choices as some form of freedom---because after 70-something years, the White Man's Way is the ONLY WAY .....you know.
As Thumper once pointed out----the most beautiful woman he ever laid eyes on was a deep, dark chocolate skinned Jayne Mansfield. However, he also pointed out that the media would NEVER...NEVER ALLOW that type of look to be glorified and promoted in this society on a daily basis. The RESULT would be....that men would become acculturated to an alternative CHOICE in beauty selection.
EUROPE IS THE PROOF.
Over in Europe, the blackest of black women are routinely featured as "Love Interests" in music videos, motion pictures, print media.....and the result is that the "mulatta/biracial" black woman inhabits a pretty EQUAL dating scene in Europe with the darker women. They both have virtually the same chance---and to be honest---because the darker women are more MEDIA-visible, they actually have a slight edge in France, Italy, Belgium, Sweden, Great Britain, Spain....when it comes to getting a man, getting a good job or getting a cab.
SO ALL OF THAT....blows your comments about "DICTATING CHOICES" right out of the water.
In the United States--the goal is White Supremacy and you are not supporting "choices"....you are actually supporting a LACK of choices.
BECAUSE you and Mahogany are "light skinned women"---it doesn't bother you that BLACK women are only portrayed in media as evil shrews, old matriarchal women or little girls. As the book "Don't Play In the Dark" so brilliantly points out---if a black woman is to be portrayed as beautiful, desirable and "human" on par with a white woman---then the RULE IS that she must be mixed, mulatto or biracial, ala Lena Horne, Halle Berry, Dorothy Dandridge----NOT Cicely Tyson. Even when they began casting the breathtaking IMAN in films--she ALWAYS was cast an "evil", non-producing but Beautiful THREAT---never a good woman. You claim to be fair---yet you don't seem to care that the "girlfriend" in the movie can never be played by a beautiful CHOCO-late skinned girl---the wife, the object of desire---is almost always RACIALLY SELECTED TO PROMOTE an ideal of "dilution" as a the ultimate state of beauty.
These dark chocolate men that ABM points out are so desired.....are becoming less and less black, less and less chocolate....because the playing field is UNEVEN. Lightskinned and mixed women BENEFIT from White Supremacist values in this society and they PROTECT those values....so they can keep benefitting, even at the cost of ERASING their ancestor's blood.
Cynique and Mahoghany continue to support "DICTATING CHOICES"---as long as those choices are the Status Quo. Calvin Klein certainly doesn't scratch the surface of this issue. They both act as though Dark Black women just aren't attractive enough to be presented in this society in any other FORM than the traditional ones that WHITE PEOPLE have created for them to occupy.
In other words---they're saying that it's NORMAL right now---the way that black men choose their mates based on color and hair texture. CHOOSING ANYTHING but Africa---which is their GOD GIVEN choice.
Kola has NEVER EVER said that she wanted her "choice" to be the only option.
****Mahogany is reading my books right now. Why would so many of the leading ladies in my books be LIGHTSKINNED WOMEN if I only wanted my choice to be the only option?
I don't know how anybody could read "Flesh" or "Long Train" and claim that I haven't represented/included LIGHTSKINNED WOMEN as my sisters. But yet, lightskinned women DO NOT in general return the favor, respect, love.....America teaches them that they don't have to.
What I am sick of....is BLACK BLACK WOMEN being made INVISIBLE or portrayed only in negative images.....and lightskinned women calling themselves "Black women" and then SUPPORTING those negative, colorist stereotypes and portrayals of dark black women.
APPARENTLY....by all the literature on the market supporting my complaint....I'm not nearly the only one who has noticed this.
And because I am not indigenous to America...I cannot tolerate this injustice. I am also glad to say that I notice MANY AFRICAN WOMEN who are becoming quite vocal and enraged by this AMERICAN color bullshit that DISALLOWS (as Toni Morrison says) the "black woman as herself".
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kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 699
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 01:15 pm: |
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oh.....color is not a social construct. but how the colors are treated is. so start blaming the structure and not the "yellow people".
~Delores
__________________
Has no one heard of the brown paper bag test? The Brown door? The pencil in the hair test?
Jack and Jill.
The Boule Society.
The Blue Vein Society.
I blame ALL PEOPLE who promote and PROTECT the "erasure" of MY PEOPLE through White Supremacist systems.
Many of those people who LIES and PROTECT THIS SYSTEM....because it benefits THEM......are yellow.
Huey Newton and the so called "Black Panthers"----another bunch of colorstruck, only marry "WHITE", "black-talking", "black-HATING" American phonies.
_______________
And what about your UNIVERSITY, Miss Delores?
Are you going to claim that MOST of the black teachers represent the LOOK of black America nationwide?
What about the TRADITION of lightskinned RULED and POPULATED "colleges/universities" and their very Strict Rules to keep "darkies" out.
You forgot about all that?
Just recently at HOWARD UNIVERSITY....they refused to allow Cheerleaders to wear their hair in its natural AFRICAN state. These were "high yellow" women--the women traditionally IN CHARGE, who wear African dashikkis over their yellow shoulders and then expelled all those cheerleaders who refused to weave or straighten their hair---which was so THOSE GIRLS could look like the majority of the mixed race, biracial YELLOW girls with "good hair" who populate HOWARD UNIVERSITY.
Yeah, talk about "choices".
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Cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 01:29 pm: |
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Well, you can say what you want, Kola Boof. But if people don't agree with your point of view that's your problem, not theirs. You keep going on and on, insisting that you know what's best for everbody. Sez who? You want to demolish everybody who doesn't conform to your criteria. Bullshit. |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 701
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 01:37 pm: |
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But that's just it, Great Mother....
MORE and MORE PEOPLE...."are" agreeing with my point of view.
Have you not noticed the AVALANCHE of Discussion on this subject and the phenomenal popularity of books like "Bluest Eye" and "Blacker the Berry"?
Have you noticed that the MAJORITY of Black Americans are much darker than a brown paper bag and that there is enormous pain and rage that is not being addressed?
I definitely understand WHY you would want to bury your head in the sand on this one, Beloved Mother.
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Nadine Holden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 01:39 pm: |
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Kola, I saw this on the news a few months ago:
Just recently at HOWARD UNIVERSITY....they refused to allow Cheerleaders to wear their hair in its natural AFRICAN state. These were "high yellow" women--the women traditionally IN CHARGE, who wear African dashikkis over their yellow shoulders and then expelled all those cheerleaders who refused to weave or straighten their hair---which was so THOSE GIRLS could look like the majority of the mixed race, biracial YELLOW girls with "good hair" who populate HOWARD UNIVERSITY.
Kola the dark nappy girls took it to court and HOWARD U is still saying its about uniformity not hair texture. SMH
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Nadine Holden
Unregistered guest
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 01:50 pm: |
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Kola,
I agree with you, it is more evened out in Europe. All the different types of black are treated just about equal in the dating scene.
when my husband and I went to Amsterdam, that's all we saw were dark African women with wide noses and short nappy hair married to Dutch businessmen or African men married to white women. The mixed children of the unions were quite popular, too. I don't think we saw any black with blacks though.
You may not believe this but my first husband left me in 1971 because the Black Power movement came in vogue and he said I was too lite-brite. He even tried to say our daughter wasn't his because she had red hair and gray eyes. But my mother has red hair and gray eyes. So it can go both ways.
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 268
Registered: 01-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 01:53 pm: |
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Kola: BECAUSE you and Mahogany are "light skinned women"---it doesn't bother you that BLACK women are only portrayed in media as evil shrews, old matriarchal women or little girls.
Mah: I find it curious--no, let's use the King of the Board's word and call it "interesting"-- that you think I'm light-skinned. In fact, I have stated my skin-tone--brown--more than once on these boards, and my picture is up on my columns as well.
So now what? Now that I'm not conveniently light-skinned, please tell me what you are basing these wild assumptions on. Certainly nothing that I've written. And I'm not interested in discussions based on wild conjecture ABOUT ME. Hear me carefully. Your observations about the larger culture, hell, the world, may or may not be correct, but what you know about me and mine is most definitely limited.
Again, where *do* you get this false assumption that such media portrayals don't bother me? I invite you to read one of my previous Parents' Action for Children columns about media portrayals. It is not exactly the issue you define above, but it certainly shows that your statement about me is patently false. www.parentsaction.org Click on The Mom Journal. That's me.
This is precisely what I mean: you lump anyone who doesn't agree with you into the same pile. Who the hell has time for facts when there is a revolution to be fought and won, minds to be changed????!!!
Kola: You claim to be fair---yet you don't seem to care that the "girlfriend" in the movie can never be played by a beautiful CHOCO-late skinned girl---the wife, the object of desire---is almost always RACIALLY SELECTED TO PROMOTE an ideal of "dilution" as a the ultimate state of beauty.**
Mah: And what, exactly, makes you think I don't care? What? That I don't say amen every tiime you post about this here? Like the question about solutions, you never answer that question. Are you privy to every discussion I have, to everything I've ever written, to my childhood, to my 6 y.o. tears over not being pretty and liked like my light-skinned best friend Michelle, to the actresses and actors I love best who are almost exclusively dark-skinned and for whom I root to get the parts reserved for lighter-skinned blacks?
Kola: Cynique and Mahoghany continue to support "DICTATING CHOICES"---as long as those choices are the Status Quo.
Mah: And we are doing this how? Other than asking you questions you can't or won't answer, and not agreeing with you 100%, you don't know a thing else about what I do and don't do.
You are so blinded and one-note, you haven't even acknowledged the places in my post where I *have* agreed with you. Because it's not enough for you.
ABM: Calvin Klein certainly doesn't scratch the surface of this issue. They both act as though Dark Black women just aren't attractive enough to be presented in this society in any other FORM than the traditional ones that WHITE PEOPLE have created for them to occupy.
Mah: Of course he doesn't scratch the surface of the larger issue, but I didn't use him as an example for the point you raise above, but rather in response to a different point that ABM raised.
And I hope that "both" above refers to Calvin Klein and Tommy Hilfiger, because it sure doesn't refer to me (Cynique can speak for herself). Where have I said anything demeaning or limiting about dark-skinned black women? I'm considered medium brown by some, been called dark by others. My mother and great-grandmother are/were dark-skinned without a doubt and they are two of the most beautiful women I know.
Kola: In other words---they're saying that it's NORMAL right now---the way that black men choose their mates based on color and hair texture. CHOOSING ANYTHING but Africa---which is their GOD GIVEN choice.
Mah: I've never said any such thing. Don't put words in my mouth. I've said people can do whatever the hell they want to do. And not all black men choose their mates that way. I've asked you and ABM has asked you what you think the solution to the problem is--is it mating by color/hair texture?--and you refuse to answer. I am not being facetious or accusatory, but the arguments you make lead right up to that remedy. Is that what you advocate or not? Why is that question so perplexing or disconcerting to you?
I didn't want to draw this conclusion, but I can't help but think now that you prefer to make wild, personal, unfounded accusations than have discourse. Have it at.
Kola: Kola has NEVER EVER said that she wanted her "choice" to be the only option.
Mah: I didn't say that. Cynique did (maybe?). My point is that you haven't said AT ALL what the solutions and options are. But you certainly don't cotton to people disagreeing with you, so if you have many options available for us to choose from, by all means, speak plain, because that hasn't come through at all.
Kola: ****Mahogany is reading my books right now. Why would so many of the leading ladies in my books be LIGHTSKINNED WOMEN if I only wanted my choice to be the only option?
Mah: AGAIN, I didn't make this comment. But I can see why someone would make that assumption about you based on the way you rant on these boards.
Take responsibility for your words and actions here, Kola. Look at the cycle. You rant, you rave, your curse, you carry on horribly. And then you rant some more and refuse to answer questions asked of you, then you point to your books (and still refuse to answer questions asked of you), and then you apologize, and then you are devastated that people don't realize and accept how really sweet and loving you are. And then lather, rinse, repeat.
Kola: I don't know how anybody could read "Flesh" or "Long Train" and claim that I haven't represented/included LIGHTSKINNED WOMEN as my sisters.
Mah: You should that up with someone who has said such a thing.
Kola: But yet, lightskinned women DO NOT in general return the favor, respect, love.....America teaches them that they don't have to.
Mah: Yeah, you should take that up with a light-skinned woman. Sorry can't comment, except to say that my light-skinned friends and relatives are nothing like you describe. Hmm...could it be that there are good and bad in every batch? Nah, that would be too much like HUMAN.
Kola: What I am sick of....is BLACK BLACK WOMEN being made INVISIBLE or portrayed only in negative images.....and lightskinned women calling themselves "Black women" and then SUPPORTING those negative, colorist stereotypes and portrayals of dark black women.
Mah: And exactly how do they support these things? And what do you recommend they do instead?
Kola: APPARENTLY....by all the literature on the market supporting my complaint....I'm not nearly the only one who has noticed this.
Mah: No, you're not. In fact, in my post to ABM, I noted that you are not unique in your complaint nor your methodology, nor are you unique in being criticized for it. But I guess you were too busy writing me off as light-skinned to read the actual words I wrote.
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Cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:00 pm: |
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How do we know you are not the spokesman for the vocal minority, Kola. Especially since you and a lot of other people are saying there is an epidemic of interracial dating going on. Have you changed the mind of any black men who are exercising their choices??? And you can't convince me of anything because you are a colorist yourself. You don't have the best interest of everyone at heart. Only people who you deem worthy. You are blinded by your bitterness and resentment.
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kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 703
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:02 pm: |
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Mahoghany, forgive me. I'm confusing with you with the person on the Culture and Race board who said that she's lightskinned and was tired of dark women "complaining, nagging" about it.
Also, I had indicated that I was dropping this issue---and I did for a couple of days----only to come back and see NEW posts this morning declaring that I was "dictating Choices" and "Calvin Klein" etc.
So I decided to pursue the things about "CHOICES" and just how we make choices and form preferrences.
I apologize if I've made a personal attack on you, unfairly, and I did think you were someone else. I definitely thought you stated that you were "lightskinned" and something else along those lines.
I might also add, as Marita Golden pointed out, that many of the "WOMEN" who teach light is better....are dark skinned mothers themselves, usually the darkest, who want their children to marry as light as possible to escape suffering what they suffered. So in no way am I saying that "lightskinned" people are the only ones who have supported, protected this mentality. If anything, Dark Skinned plantation women (in both Africa and the U.S.) were the ones who FIRST coined the terms "good hair" and insisted their children marry lighter.
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kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 704
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:08 pm: |
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Nadine Holden Said:
You may not believe this but my first husband left me in 1971 because the Black Power movement came in vogue and he said I was too lite-brite. He even tried to say our daughter wasn't his because she had red hair and gray eyes. But my mother has red hair and gray eyes. So it can go both ways.
KOLA:
Nadine, I'm so sorry to hear that and yes I acknowledge that lightskinned women sometimes do not benefit, just as ABM's wife pointed out.
YES--I saw the same thing in Amsterdam.
I lived in London, Spain and Belgium, where every shade of black is basically treated equally, so I concur that it's jarring to deal with America's system, which is just leftover from the plantation. Thanks for bolstering what I have been trying to say.
That the PLAYING FIELD is not even and that....it can be.
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 269
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:10 pm: |
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Kola: Also, I had indicated that I was dropping this issue---and I did for a couple of days----only to come back and see NEW posts this morning declaring that I was "dictating Choices" and "Calvin Klein" etc.
Mah: I accept your apology, Kola.
Please note the context of the posts you read this morning. I was responding to ABM's post, and was trying to do so by steering clear of you in particular out of respect for your wishes to LET IT GO. So, I dealt with ABM's writing:
It is interesting that some of you criticize Kola because you feel she apparently attempts to, according to Cynique, “...dictate people's choices...” Because I wonder how is what she does any different that of almost ANYONE else.
Of course, I couldn't not mention your name at all, given that he had. But I did focus on comparing the discussion here to other areas of life where people reject being dictated, because I disagree with ABM that something NEW (and I suppose, suspect) is going on here.
Same with the Calvin Klein example. That had nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the dictates of the fashion industry--which yes, have to do with race, but for the purposes of ABM's analogy, it did not. Context. |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 705
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:17 pm: |
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Mahogany, one of the most painful things for me...in talking about this subject...is that so many of the Black Women that I'm close to and really, really love.....are lightskinned.
Many of them, because they know me so closely, really understand, because THEY KNOW ME.
But on these boards...as ABM pointed out....most of the others are doing the SAME THING that I'm doing. Ranting, dictating their choices and protecting their turf.
Cynique, Linda, Susan (who's not around), Moonsigns (white), Delores and many other women here that are LIGHTSKINNED have for years ranted and been very vicious in arguments with me about this issue. I am not the only one---but I am usually the only one representing the darker women.
And ANY QUESTION that someone asks me, I am happy to answer it.
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 270
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:25 pm: |
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Kola: And ANY QUESTION that someone asks me, I am happy to answer it.
Mah: I look forward to your answers then. |
mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 271
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 02:31 pm: |
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Kola: But on these boards...as ABM pointed out....most of the others are doing the SAME THING that I'm doing. Ranting, dictating their choices and protecting their turf.
Mah: That's not what I read his post to mean. I took it to mean that society as a whole, parents, friends, the fashion industry, etc. dictates (or tries to dictate) what we do and how we think and consume. And that's what I responded to. |
mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 272
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 03:01 pm: |
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Kola: Mahogany, one of the most painful things for me...in talking about this subject...is that so many of the Black Women that I'm close to and really, really love.....are lightskinned.
Mah: Kola, your considerable pain is evident. Which is all the more reason, imo, for discussions of these issues to be solution-oriented. People are in pain; they need change and healing. So what does that look like?
You've named the problem. And frankly, I don't respond to much of what you post here because it not new or news to me. The conversations I have about this in "real life" tend to be action-oriented. Collaborating with a friend on her media and culture class at Pittsburgh Filmmakers for 6th-12th graders, to come up with projects which address gender, race, and color issues. Or personal endeavors related to parenting and religion that affirm brown skin, dark skin, our hair, our culture.
Kola, your writing and public speaking matters. You know that, right?
I don't throw up my hands at the larger culture changing for the better, and certainly I do what I can to affect that change, but change from without is a much taller order than change from within. Change from within can be done anytime, anywhere, by anybody. And it should not be underestimated.
Individuals should strive to change the world, but we don't have to wait for the world to change in order to heal and help others to heal from the pain the world inflicts. |
Cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 03:02 pm: |
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You could save yourself a lot of grief, Kola, if you didn't feel that you had a license to attack light-skinned and mixed women and read them out of the race. Everybody knows that this is a color-conscious society and, ironically, most women don't really allow this to influence their choice of a mate. But what I am finding increasingly interesting is how careful you and others are to distance yourself from dark-skinned blacks, using all kinds of imaginative adjectives to describe what shade of BROWN you are... |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 706
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 03:28 pm: |
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Mahoghany---what questions did you ask me?
I only remember one...about what we should DO to change these dynamics.
One thing I did last summer, was to support a group of African women who BOYCOTTED the film "Hotel Rwanda", because of the obvious color-casting in that film of the female roles. Not just the LEAD role---but every female role of any size in the film was played by a mulatto. The film is supposedly about the genocide in Rwanda. The MALES and the CHILDREN in the film were PURE black, convincing looking as Rwandan people--including the American Don Cheadle. But every female was played by a "lightskinned" or "biracial" lead. The most insulting scenes to African women, were the ones inwhich we were asked to believe that the Bi-racial leading lady was the MOTHER of the pure blood Rwandans cast as her children.
And this is a recurring "image" in films about Africa....our MOTHER'S IMAGE is "disallowed"---black men and black children are shown as coming from yellow, western-looking women (for instance in the film "AMISTAD"---there is NO WAY that Cinque's Wife would have looked in PRE-Colonial Royal Quarters like the woman they cast as his wife---Alek Wek or India Arie should have been cast)....but White Supremacy dictates that in order to kill the NEST...you must first kill the queen.
So they ERASE our real mother....and put a WOMB that is WHITER in her place and CONDITION US to this image.
Eventually, the yellow womb is not even good enough after we've been niggerized----we need it WHITER.
That's the purpose of these images. To dilute and ERASE us.
BECAUSE of this BOYCOTT....
Raul Peck's HBO film about the exact subject, entitled "Sometimes in September"----was casted with real African women, and even the Tutsi "mulatto" were shown how they actually look in Africa---which is BROWN, not yellow, with thick African features and African hair. In this film, "Black women" were not disallowed from representing themselves.
Another thing....my children's father never allowed TELEVISION for our sons, which I quickly became to appreciate.
Thomas would tape programs---usually from the DISCOVERY CHANNEL, PBS and certain cartoons like "The Prince of Egypt" or movies like "The Wiz" or "CHITTY CHITTY BANG BANG" for our sons to watch...but we MONITOR and "homogenize" the images and messages that our children receive.
We would never say "don't marry this person or that" (because it may be MEANT for them to marry white)....but we definitely DICTATE images that teach them to cherish their own images and to want to reproduce those images in the world.
Portrait art of beautiful chocolate fudge African women are not only placed throughout the house....and throughout their grandmother's house....and in their father's Work Office in town...........but their father DELIBERATELY praises the looks and dispositions of "black women" whenever he and the boys are watching a program or out and about. He points out to my sons---"Look at the pretty skin on that black girl over there."
In other words...the REVERSE of what American culture does.
It works, because my sons, after YEARS of their father doing this----are now quick to do it. We can walking in the mall, and they will point out the "pretty women" in the mall-----and those women are ALWAYS women who look somewhat......LIKE ME.
SORT OF LIKE WHITE PEOPLE RAISE THEIR CHILDREN...which I maintain, is infinitely more thoughtful and strategic than the way that Blacks raise theirs.
Notice how WHITE KIDS may adopt HipHop and copy Black culture.....but they still end up AFFIRMING WHITENESS. They create Justin Temberlake and EMINEM and Mariah Carey and Elvis and Marilyn Monroe to them their Blackness. Whites "tan" in the sun---but still have White babies.
They could easily have "Tanned" babies if they wanted.
Blacks do not. Blacks eradicate their own image to aquire the Whiteness they covet. Blacks usually mate with the CAST OFFS of the White Race---the poor white trash.
Technically...I, Kola, am bi-racial. My father is CLEARLY not a black man. But when people speak of AFRICAN mulattoes and bi-racial people, they forget that our African mulattoes are a dark yellow color---in Sudan, MOST Bi-racial people (half-Arabs) are the color of Naomi Campbell and Mario Van Peebles.
You do not have huge numbers of pure, Cushite CHARCOAL black people in America.....so Americans think that someone like Whoopi Goldberg and Don Cheadle and Tracy Chapman are really "black". I've heard BROWN WOMEN like Diahann Carroll and Dorothy Dandridge and Eartha Kitt referred to as "dark skinned".
Those people are not that dark.
This is what Cinque's "Wife" would have looked like in real life:
WHY CAN'T SHE BE SHOWN IN A FILM????
HERE....is a Rwandan "Tustsi" couple:
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 273
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 03:33 pm: |
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Cynique: But what I am finding increasingly interesting is how careful you and others are to distance yourself from dark-skinned blacks, using all kinds of imaginative adjectives to describe what shade of BROWN you are...
Mah: Oh, fercryinoutloud, can we stop with the "interesting" already, lol!?
Why do you find this *gag* interesting, Cynique?
I'm not making any value judgments, just being descriptive. When I called myself "medium brown" here, it was in the given context (re: how dark-skinned women are treated, etc.). One, I did so in anticipation of any "but you don't understand...you're not REALLY dark." Two, to illustrate how darkness really is in the eye of the beholder--some people don't consider me dark-skinned, others do.
Darker compared to what? I'm lighter than Wesley Snipes but darker than Nicole Kidman. And yet I *know* I'm not light-skinned.
But you raise the issue of how light-skinned people are just that, but the rest of us get to be all these fancy colors. Dare I say it? Interesting. |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 707
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 03:34 pm: |
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And exactly WHY CYNIQUE....should I NOT describe what shade of brown I am?
My father was a beautiful Pineapple Sunshine color.
My mother was a divine Kohl Sapphire Charcoal Black.
When I met CRYSTAL---she was a vivacious Pecan Brown with a hint of orange solar.
My children's father is a Cake-baked delicious Fudge color.
Halle Berry, with her makeup on, is a radiant baked PEACH color with raspberry glaze and pecan eyes.
Lonette Mckee, one of my favorite actresses, is a rich Egg Nog and Cinnamon blend with a light sprinkling of confectioner's sugar and barely sun-baked.
COLOR is to be noticed and APPRECIATED and CELEBRATED....not to be made invisible.
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kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 708
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 03:45 pm: |
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And ONE of my two NANA's in America....who I love DEVOUTLY.....could pass for a white woman.
She comes from GEORGIA.
She has pale ivory skin and gray eyes and reddish hair----but her hair is nappy and her nose is West African ("Tukolor" to be exact) and her cheekbones are "Denkinyira" and her lips are "Coolo". She has the hips and walk of the West Africans---but calls it "frisky-tail".
I love my GRANDMA, SUPREMELY and her white skin is beautiful to me---because she LOVED ME and PROTECTED ME.
---------
What I believe....is that in people's desperation to DISMISS the kind of discourse that is "uncomfortable", they change the argument into something that it's not.
For instance---whites will call you a "reverse racist" if you want to have Black History Month and such. They fail to see that their DOMINANCE of the culture makes it necessary.
"SOME" lightskinned people fail to see that there is a growing need for Dark Skinned folks to DEFINE THEMSELVES and to create some kind of NEXXUS that celebrates their beauty "seperately"----because---we are not treated and appreciated the same, even if they do consider us ALL "Black".
And because I am a BEAUTIFUL black African woman...."MY CHILDREN" will simply have to create a form of MEDIA, PUBLIC DISCOURSE in which "MY" IMAGE is celebrated, recognized and payed homage to. I am not a Mammy, not a slave, not a little colored girl------I cannot accept the rules over here.
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 274
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 04:04 pm: |
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Kola: Mahoghany---what questions did you ask me?
I only remember one...about what we should DO to change these dynamics.
Mah: There were several others. I can't recall everything, but the posts are there. Some you address below; some I reiterate below.
Kola: One thing I did last summer, was to support a group of African women who BOYCOTTED the film "Hotel Rwanda", because of the obvious color-casting in that film of the female roles.
Mah: And this is one reason why your angry words hurled at light-skinned people are problematic. What do you say to a light-skinned sister who also boycotted that film? What should she make of your accusations and insults about light-skinned people not caring, and so forth? When you hurl insults and accusations you do not always call Cynique and others by name. You more often than not speak in generalizations.
Given that you have light-skinned friends, who presumably share at least some of your sentiments in these matters, why aren't you willing to extend the same benefit of the doubt to light-skinned people you don't know? Just by looking at the color of your skin, how would I ever know you boycotted Hotel Rwanda? Likewise, merely by looking at a light-skinned sister, how can you assume with any confidence that she didn't?
You wrote that your light-skinned friends really understand you because they know you. If you require every light-skinned person to be your friend in order to be insulated from your wrath, that's asking a bit much. This is what came to my mind when Delores asked you to direct your anger at the larger culture and not individual light-skinned folks.
Kola: Thomas would tape programs---usually from the DISCOVERY CHANNEL, PBS and certain cartoons like "The Prince of Egypt" or movies like "The Wiz" or "CHITTY CHITTY BANG BANG" for our sons to watch...but we MONITOR and "homogenize" the images and messages that our children receive.
Mah: And so do *many* other black parents, of all skin tones. So, again, when you accuse people of not caring (and I'm not talking about me; we cleared that up) about the issues you raise, how exactly do you know?
Kola: We would never say "don't marry this person or that" (because it may be MEANT for them to marry white)....but we definitely DICTATE images that teach them to cherish their own images and to want to reproduce those images in the world. Portrait art of beautiful chocolate fudge African women are not only placed throughout the house....and throughout their grandmother's house....and in their father's Work Office in town...........but their father DELIBERATELY praises the looks and dispositions of "black women" whenever he and the boys are watching a program or out and about. He points out to my sons---"Look at the pretty skin on that black girl over there."
Mah: Wonderful! And yet I say again, others do this as well. So what else would you have folks, light and dark do?
Not enough people are raising there kids with that level of thoughtfulness and vigilance, I will say. But maybe the issue here is that you are preaching to the converted. To my knowledge this is the first time you've posted such specifics, and I'll be the first to have your back if someone came along and said that what you were doing with regard to your sons was harmful or not necessary. But no here has said that, that I'm aware of. So who, truly, is the enemy?
Kola: SORT OF LIKE WHITE PEOPLE RAISE THEIR CHILDREN...which I maintain, is infinitely more thoughtful and strategic than the way that Blacks raise theirs.
Mah: I disagree. Poor parenting is an equal opportunity dysfunction. Of course, black people often pay a higher price for it, than whites. |
Cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 04:23 pm: |
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Little testy, there, aren't you Kola. And I really didn't find my observation "interesting". I found it out right funny, especially since you had to write one of your marathon essays to justify yourself. And for my next act, - I find it even more hilarious when light-skinned women who can be mistaken for white, are extremely millitant, secretly enjoying the empowerment derived from having all the dark folks being impressed and shocked upon finding out such a person is actually "black." Whoooo. (What a coward you are, Cynique. You'd never say any of this to anybody's face.)ROTFLOL |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 709
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 04:30 pm: |
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If the media would SHOW our mothers beauty in "ratio" to their population----
-----then people like me would not be annoyed by the images of "yellow" women.
But ONLY light, biracial, mixed women are really shown or glorified. Everywhere you go.
The love interest (of child bearing age) is NEVER dark chocolate and beautiful, desirable. They won't allow that image SHOWN other than......very occasionally.
Dark women are portrayed by Whoopi, Monique, etc. ON PURPOSE---to advance the notion that dark skinned women are just unattractive, comical, homey, FAT, Mammy or....little girls.
This becomes CONDITIONING to the point where many dark women don't even try to be pretty. They put on fat and become bitter and give up altogether, because the society marks them FROM BIRTH to be "invisible".
HERE ARE SOME "EUROPEAN--created" IMAGES....of "Dark" BLACK WOMEN IN THE MEDIA:
SO LETS BE HONEST
..........since we do know that there are BEAUTIFUL DARK WOMEN in the world.....
......how come we don't have any Black Movie Actresses or Sex Symbols who look as dark and "BLACK" like THESE WOMEN?????
WHY IS THEIR IMAGE NOT ALLOWED?
According to SCIENCE.....GENETICALLY....these women are the strongest chromosones are earth. ALL OUR "DNA"---whether you're in Sweden, Brazil or Anartica---comes from these women.
The DNA of these women....is 4 times stronger genetically than Dark Skinned Black Males.
SO THINK ABOUT IT.
There's a REASON that these women's BEAUTY is not allowed to be presented to SOCIETY....a reason that our SONS are only allowed to see LIGHT-MIXED-BIracial Women and encouraged that the WHITER they can mate....the more STATUS, the more MAN they are.
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 275
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 04:36 pm: |
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Kola: There's a REASON that these women's BEAUTY is not allowed to be presented to SOCIETY....a reason that our SONS are only allowed to see LIGHT-MIXED-BIracial Women and encouraged that the WHITER they can mate....the more STATUS, the more MAN they are.
Mah: Yes, and that reason is racism and colorism. I'm not trying to be flip, but I wasn't aware that this was a point of disagreement here. |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 710
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:06 pm: |
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Mahogany, I have answered your question about the "anger" directed at lightskinned women in my other two posts----you were probably writing your post and didn't see those.
LET ME ADD----"many whites" are AGAINST racism, but that doesn't stop the victims of Racism from seeing "Whites" in General as their oppressor and enemy.
Whether SOME lightskinned people (like my idol-mentor Malcolm X) fought/fight against colorism or not is besides the point. The point is that "I" do something, even if that includes making GENERALITIES and then having to point out, as I have countless times, that much of my support COMES FROM lightskinned people who are against these color codes as well.
And as far as being insulated from my WRATH.....in a PUBLIC setting, it's impossible for many INNOCENT lightskinned people not to be attacked, just as many INNOCENT white folks get their feelings hurt listening to Nikki Giovanni talk or James Baldwin talk---right?
But you see Nikki and Baldwin sitting up there with their WHITE friends after they just called "white people" a bunch of evil rednecked cracker bastards. Don't you?
And Black People have no problem with EVERYBODY ON EARTH "castigating" the White Race, the White Man-----but let us point out the colorist societies of "Lightskinned Blacks" or the "Dark Skinned Black Man's Hatred of Black Women"----then it comes to the light that BLACKS do not have any Moral Superiority in racism.
Blacks are part of the problem.
It's not possible for me to spare people from my wrath.
I'm a Lioness trying to save my cubs---I'm going to bite some innocent animals by mistake.
I wrote posts about my Grandmother and others that address your questions.
_______________________
when you accuse people of not caring (and I'm not talking about me; we cleared that up) about the issues you raise, how exactly do you know
KOLA: I go by the vibe of people's replies.
AND YES...in your case, I am preaching to the CHOIR, Mahoghany.
There is also a woman writer named KATHLEEN CROSS who could pass for "white"----who used to come here often and she SUPPORTED ME 100% and was able to argue on my behalf.
And for YEARS, I have posted all kinds of "solutions" and so have others----you're NEW Mahoghany.
______________
FINALLY....I really do get tired of this "subject" and because so much of my work is dedicated to it.....I have been trying to get OFF of it.
One HUGE problem is that Black American women, although they look like and ACT just like African women----often have totally different priorities, they no longer have the responsibilities that a Mother/Wife would have in an African society, therefore things that are of the UTMOST importance to me (the planting and preservation of the SEED)----are often things that they rarely ever think about.
In America, Blacks do not have the cultural strength or the CORE IDENTITY that we have.
So I come off as being "paranoid" to them. But what I really feel.............is that I value myself more and that I have stronger roots.
Black American women are often not willing to acknowledge that they have been ABUSED MORE and "programmed".....they will say it to a WHITE woman....but not to an African woman, because tragically----black women worldwide see themselves in competition with each other. So therein lies a barrier as well.
NOTICE that Mother Cynique and I do not agree about ANYTHING.....but because she is my bloodberry, I LOVE HER NO MATTER WHAT.
I love each and every Black Woman who comes to this board, NO MATTER WHAT.
Even when I TRIED to reject Delores as my own....something in her words and something in my INSTINCTS reached out to her and offered myself to her, because....I FEEL HER and feel that she NEEDS something from me.
It's a PRIMAL INSTINCT. I have to be there for her----because in a strange way I can't explain-----I AM HER MOTHER.
I don't know how I know, but I know I felt GOD tell me---"don't you turn your back on her, Naima!"
So I looked in my bowl of snap beans and I said, "DRATS!"
She's mines, too. (You see, it's the HUMAN part of me that's been mistreated that doesn't want her).
But the thing is...I can't rest until the thing itself...the purity of it.....is ALLOWED to exist and to be cherished and loved.
NOTICE...the only people I fight with, are the ones I love.
Notice the ones who mean something to me, like CYNIQUE and LINDA----I will fight them for YEARS.
Because I love them and I just want them to love me and accept me and understand me.
But you saw me cuss out the others and move on, refusing to debate with them. Like the White woman, MOONSIGNS.
She's not mines.
Let her own goddamned mother look after her.
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 276
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:25 pm: |
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Kola,
While you and I still have our points of disagreement, your last post answered a lot of my questions, asked and unasked. Thank you. I felt your heart in that one.
I totally agree that we must be constructively critical of our own, and we are too slow to do that. Which is in part why I responded to what seemed to me to be ABM's suggestion that you were being singled out for disagreement. You know, it wasn't really his comment about "dictating choices" this morning as much as it was a prior comment about ganging up on you and high school crap (something to that effect). To me, he was inflaming a situation that didn't need to be inflamed. So I got inflamed.
To me, whether I'm participating here or elsewhere, I think no one is above challenge or questioning. That's not ganging up or "high school." I should have directed my irritation at him at that moment.
So truly, nothing personal, and I apologize for the snappish personal nature of my comments to you. |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 711
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:41 pm: |
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LOL---
ABM just tries to take up for me.
I agree with you Mahoghany. It's important to challenge, question----and I see us all here as like a family, so that's especially why EVERYONE should be able to say what they want to not have others take it "too personally".
That's why I reiterated how much I love the people here and that after years---I don't think Cynique is truly offended by what I say. She KNOWS that I adore her, despite our total disagreement about EVERYTHING. I'm like a daughter who ANNOYS HER because she sees so much potential and yet I dress like a bum, won't wear a Bra and won't use her NEIMAN MARCUS card. That kind of thing.
Linda and I used to CUSS each other/fight horribly.....but then she found herself and her book mentioned in my book "LONG TRAIN" on the acknowledgements page---lovingly.
In your case, Deesha...I try to avoid spats with you....because I read a few things you've written and I remember how incredibly kind and caring you were towards me when we first met and I want you to LIKE ME, so I try hard to avoid making you mad. I also like Yvette Perry and I'm the say way with her.
I want to be liked by you---because you're a Black American and having you like me gives me "Validation". It's very important to me.
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 277
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 05:49 pm: |
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Kola, girl, you make me want to shake you, quote you, and protect you, all at the same time!
Like you said: family.
But like family, we gotta be real with each other. We'll make each other mad at times, it's inevitable. You dance with somebody long enough, and you're bound to get your toes stepped on. But how sad is the alternative: going through life never getting close enough to tango...
@D-->--- |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 712
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 06:09 pm: |
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Plus you went to YALE!!!!
Wasn't that you?
I never went to school.
I'm so honored to be talking with a black woman who went to YALE.
It just sends shivers down my spine!
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mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: mahoganyanais
Post Number: 278
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 06:12 pm: |
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Yep, that's me. First person in my family to go to college.
But as far as sending shivers down your spine...we gotta get back to that "Pleasing Mr. Johnson" thread! ;-) See you there later! Off to feed my young... |
Cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 06:28 pm: |
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Well, Kola, as is your custom, you place people in the roles you want them to play. But for the record, I do not think of you as a rebellious daughter. I regard you as an adversary whose contentions I frequently feel compelled to contest. When it comes to the subject of color, you have a one track mind, and I have a penchant for trying to de-rail you. This perhaps would not be so, if you were not guilty of the very things you accuse others of. |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 715
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 06:38 pm: |
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Cynique,
Beyond our disagreement with "color" politics----why do you think of me as your adversary?
I'm asking, because quite frankly, Beloved Mother---I don't believe you.
**Cue organ music
Announcer: "Tomorrow Is Not Promised" will continue in a moment.
COMMERCIAL BREAK
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Cynique.
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 06:59 pm: |
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When not opposing you, I think of you as a very intelligent, but high-strung woman, Kola. You are also child-like in many ways. I like you OK but I don't really have maternal feelings toward you or anyone else on this board. I regard everyone as my equal. |
Delores
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 07:34 pm: |
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KOLA: I might also add, as Marita Golden pointed out, that many of the "WOMEN" who teach light is better....are dark skinned mothers themselves, usually the darkest, who want their children to marry as light as possible to escape suffering what they suffered. So in no way am I saying that "lightskinned" people are the only ones who have supported, protected this mentality. If anything, Dark Skinned plantation women (in both Africa and the U.S.) were the ones who FIRST coined the terms "good hair" and insisted their children marry lighter.
Delores: This is the problem I had with your previous posts in other threads. I felt like you were ONLY blaming "light-skinned" people because they were the "manifestation" of White supremacy. Now I know you didn't mean it that way.
Kola: Cynique, Linda, Susan (who's not around), Moonsigns (white), Delores and many other women here that are LIGHTSKINNED have for years ranted and been very vicious in arguments with me about this issue. I am not the only one---but I am usually the only one representing the darker women
Delores: The only reason I may have sounded "vicious" is because in previous posts your statements seemed so exclusionary and similar to white supremacy. But you cleared that up already.
Also I think you have a right to be angry at "light skinned" people that think they are better than "dark skinned" people and use this to have an advantage over "dark-skinned" people. But like you said in Europe this isn't the case. So without the white supremicist culture there would be no ideology to tell "yellow people" they are better than the rest and no structure in which they recieved priveleges for their color. So as I've said before I feel the structure and culture should be the focus of your anger, along with those who support it (media, etc.) but that's my opinion.
And my university? Suprisingly altough it is predominately white, the black professors are almost all DARK-SKINNED WOMEN. A few wear dreads and their hair natural. In fact I have not had or seen one light-skinned black professor at my school in my four years here. And it's sad that this is "suprising" but at least it is not like the other stories on this thread of only "light-skinned" professors advancing at other colleges.
But talking about these issues is so emotional and tiring, like trying to run a marathon that never ends. So I think I'll try to take a break from here for awhile. But I make no promises. Talking here is becoming an addiction! |
kola
Moderator
Username: kola
Post Number: 716
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 08:16 pm: |
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Delores,
I would really like you to come back here and to be "family" with us.
I don't think you read my later posts on this thread.
KOLA BOOF
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 190
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
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Boyoboy--I am away from home for a few days, trying to get "caught up" on email and discussions and such on a borrowed 'net connection and THIS THING IS SOOOO SLOW!!! When my husband talked me into getting broadband I thought: "Oh, what a waste of money. I've gotten along so far with dial-up, why do I need anything different now?"
But now I see how SPOILED I have been. Are you guys using dial up on these boards? How do you do it?
Anyway, nothing to add to any discussions since it is taking me forever to download all these messages. Plus I see Kola is at it again with the large-file pics LOL!
Hope you all have been well! I'm not gonna come back here again until I get back home to my broadband connection!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2515
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 07:40 am: |
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Mah,
My point was that choice is in the grandest sense a mirage; that we all are someway succumbing to the influences of others.
Because I’ll bet SOMETHING short of divine intervention – namely, having YALE on your resume - swayed your collegiate pick.
So why should we be anymore perturb by Kola attempting to sway our view of ourselves than, say, Walmart, the NAACP, Tommy Hilfiger, Evangelical Christians and the countless other entities that attempt the same?
But then I guess if you're capable of getting as pissed about Kola's colorism essays as you are Calvin Klein's fall collection, I stand corrected.
And I don’t know whether or not Calvin and Hilfiger have “message boards”. But I do know they have +$100 million advertising budgets. And THEIR messages are very much one-sided.
At least here Kola offers others the chance for rebuttal.
I suppose, it seems to me Kola’s views are being singled out or ganged up on because I’ve seldom witnessed others propose any persuasive alternatives.
What mostly occurs here is Kola provides a detail explanation of the problem and a solution (though, until recently, with ambiguous details) and others enjoy picking apart her argument.
That’s what I meant about the “high school” thing.
Or, worst, others propose a casual sort of ‘let it be’ status quo that can logically only serve to perpetuate the current condition.
You’ve said just because you disagree with Kola doesn’t mean you don’t agree there’s a problem. Well then, what solutions would YOU propose instead?
Delores,
I find it “interesting” (*wink* Mah) when people attempt to segregate the actions of individual people from those of “institutions”, “cultures” and “structure”. Because, in the end, ALL those things come from individual people.
All,
Everyone can think/do what they want.
I guess, though if you’re especially concerned about authentically African people maintaining a presence on this planet, you might think/behave as Kola does. But if that’s not especially important to you, you might do otherwise.
This discussion/debate can be distilled into 3 simple questions:
1) Can’t and shouldn’t being authentically Black be considered as beautiful and valuable as being non-Black?
2) If your answer to 1) is “Yes”, HOW then is 1) to be achieved?
3) Since what we currently decry is the product of ardent persuasion, how can we change those views other than via some equally potent counteractive form of persuasion (as Kola often appears to allude to)?
4) Or should we continue to think/do as we've done and pray we'll miraculously evolve into something 'better'?
Kola,
Don’t get too excited about where Mah went to school. ‘Cause our current president is a Yalie too. And look at the mess he’s gotten us into. HEHE! (Sorry Mah…I couldn’t resist.)
I think the HBO film you were referring to is “Sometime in April” (not "September"). My wife and I also enjoyed seeing so many beautiful African girls and women, even though the film was about the most horrific of circumstances.
It's difficult to overstate how biased the cinema/TV is against Black women when you see “April”. We in the US so seldom (if ever) see African femininity sans some type of perversion and caricature that when you finally see such, its quite startling.
The woman who played the tragically brave wife of the lead character in “April” sort of looks like you. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2516
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 07:41 am: |
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Yvettep,
These days on the web, it’s either broadband or bust. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2520
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:07 am: |
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Correction: That of course should have been "4, not 3, simple questions". ("Gottah remember to get a cup of coffee before I start playing with the computer.) |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 284
Registered: 01-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 11:25 am: |
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ABM: Mah, my point was that choice is in the grandest sense a mirage; that we all are someway succumbing to the influences of others.
Mah: I got that.
ABM: Because I’ll bet SOMETHING short of divine intervention – namely, having YALE on your resume - swayed your collegiate pick.
Mah: In part, yes.
ABM: So why should we be anymore perturb by Kola attempting to sway our view of ourselves than, say, Walmart, the NAACP, Tommy Hilfiger, Evangelical Christians and the countless other entities that attempt the same?
Mah: I am not perturbed by Kola attempting to sway. What doesn't resonate with me is when she comes across as "my way or the highway" or that she's the only enlightened one among us. And some of that sense is perpetuated when she doesn't clarify or offer up something TANGIBLE, when what I consider key points of my posts to her go ignored, just repeating the problem ad nauseum, and not answering questions asked of her. You asked Kola for such clarification yourself, ABM, so my motivations are really no different than yours.
A positive outcome of this thread is that now I have a clearer of sense of where Kola is coming from, even though we still don't see eye to eye on everything.
I don't have these kinds of experiences with WalMart or Tommy Hilfiger or Calvin Klein, but if I engaged them as directly as I've engaged Kola, and they reacted similarly, I would have a similar reaction as well. This is not about Kola per se.
And how do you know that the same people who go rounds here with Kola don't boycott WalMart or write advocacy letters, wield influence by holding public office or participating in local politicals or throwing blood on fur coat wearers (a la PETA). Do you, like Kola, also go by "vibes", or are you psychic? ;-)
ABM: But then I guess if you're capable of getting as pissed about Kola's colorism essays as you are Calvin Klein's fall collection, I stand corrected.
Mah: That's ridiculous of course, but why is it so hard for you to believe that people can be just as "perturbed" or in passionate disagreement about something or someone other than Kola trying to influence them? Since you are so all-knowing, I need to call you at Powerball time!
It may not be Calvin Klein (remember, you mentioned fashion first as a parallel), but there are a plethora of other issues that might become one life's work and passion. Participation on this board is only one facet of everyone's life.
ABM: And I don’t know whether or not Calvin and Hilfiger have “message boards”. But I do know they have +$100 million advertising budgets. And THEIR messages are very much one-sided.
Mah: That's never been a point of dispute. But people cannot engage CK and TF as DIRECTLY as they can Kola, so you can't say that just because I'm not up in CK's grill that I'm singling Kola out somehow because I'm in hers.
ABM: I suppose, it seems to me Kola’s views are being singled out or ganged up on because I’ve seldom witnessed others propose any persuasive alternatives.
Mah: Well, that's faulty logic. Someone is ganging up on Kola because they don't offer an alternative? Kola said you feel the need to stand up for her. Great. But know that doing so at times seems to cloud your judgment.
Others HAVE shared how they live their lives, how they work in their homes, communities, and neighborhoods. I know I have.
Other than writing, boycotting, engaging the political process, and public speaking, most solutions, imo, are smaller, personal, localized, even though the problem (colorism, racism) is of global proportions. I've stated in another post in this thread that I believe change comes from within as well as, if not moreso, from without. Many black women I know are in a different place than Kola is with regard to colorism and racism and how it affects them personally. It's a global problem, but also a personal one, and not everyone is going to relate to where Kola is coming from or her methodologies, and yet they are just as capable of working to eradicate the same problems she is.
Many people work tirelessly to address these issues, but they choose to do so quietly or in ways that are under the radar. Neither they nor Kola are doing it the "right" way; they are simply doing it "their" way.
ABM: What mostly occurs here is Kola provides a detail explanation of the problem and a solution (though, until recently, with ambiguous details) and others enjoy picking apart her argument.
Mah: I've never done that, so I can't speak to it. But what's wrong with picking apart her argument if it's faulty? If I have an argument that I take to a public forum, to the world at large, I WANT opportunities to tighten that shit up as much as possible, and how better than to get constructive criticism?
Now, of course you are referring to people who "enjoy" picking apart Kola's argument, so perhaps the criticism isn't always constructive, but this doesn't happen in a vacuum, ABM. Imo, that has less to do with Kola's message than it does her methods.
My biggest gripe with Kola is the ambiguity you mentioned, and the "how", not the "what" of her stance. And as she and I both agreed, with me (and no doubt others) she is preaching to the converted--actually that's not a the gripe but rather an observation about the dynamic that plays out here.
ABM: That’s what I meant about the “high school” thing.
Mah: I appreciate your clarifying.
ABM: You’ve said just because you disagree with Kola doesn’t mean you don’t agree there’s a problem. Well then, what solutions would YOU propose instead?
Mah: I've referenced them in other posts, but briefly: solutions lie in healing ourselves WITHIN from the effects of racism and colorism; raising our kids to be conscience and aware of their history and culture, to love themselves, black people, and blackness; to effect change on a larger skill whenever possible: voting, voting with our dollars/boycotts, other political participation, community cultural programs, mentoring programs to affirm and guide our children, THE ARTS, financial stewardship among the more fortunate of us to help those less fortunate...
Nothing new under the sun, right? Right. So...the real issue is reaching the unreachable. But sometimes here it's apples and oranges. Kola strives to convert the unconverted, but I suspect her audience here is comprised mostly of the converted who, for various reasons, chafe at her METHODS. That then gets misconstrued as a rejection of her MESSAGE. That's what I think happens. And Kola addressed her methods, anger, and such yesterday. But explanation doesn't change the dynamic that plays out. I think this will remain the nature of the beast.
Kola, I hate talking about you as if you are not here in the room. My apologies.
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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 286
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:00 pm: |
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ABM's questions:
1) Can’t and shouldn’t being authentically Black be considered as beautiful and valuable as being non-Black?,
YES.
2) If your answer to 1) is “Yes”, HOW then is 1) to be achieved?
Boycott Barbie, in all her forms. She comes into our homes under different names, and guises, you know.
Okay, I'm being somewhat facetious, but that's one example.
3) Since what we currently decry is the product of ardent persuasion, how can we change those views other than via some equally potent counteractive form of persuasion (as Kola often appears to allude to)?
Yes, the times call for ardent persuasion. But there is also something to be said for walking softly and carrying a big stick. It's "both/and" not "either/or."
Now what we haven't discussed is HOW one ardently and *effectively* persuades, as opposed to alienates. This is key.
St. Francis of Assisi said, "Preach the Gospel at all times. When necessary, use words."
4) Or should we continue to think/do as we've done and pray we'll miraculously evolve into something 'better'?
There's a universe of possibility between doing the above and taking the culprits out with AKs. I too am interested in hearing others' suggestions.
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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 287
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 12:05 pm: |
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ABM: Don’t get too excited about where Mah went to school. ‘Cause our current president is a Yalie too. And look at the mess he’s gotten us into. HEHE! (Sorry Mah…I couldn’t resist.)
Mah: LOL! Thanks to his ass, I need to start answering the college question, "Uh, I went to school in Connecticut." |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 729
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 02:03 pm: |
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Well, Mahogany---
if one goes back and really studies people like Harriett Tubman----illiterate, gun-toting people like TUBMAN whose speeches to Slave folk who DID NOT believe they were slaves and who rebelled against anything being done to change their status-----if someone studies this, they will see that Tubman's plan of action was even more "Wobbly, un-planned, unapologetic and Gut-born, knee-jerk" than my own pathological work in this NEW FORM of the same old shit.
I believe that the MAIN THING...is that anybody do SOMETHING....
....I really am not concerned with people approving of my methods (I don't have any methods--I come straight from the heart...I REACT).....and there's enormous truth in what ABM said about different people having different values.
What is URGENT and worth Pannicking over to me as a Nilotic person----is often something that is NOT URGENT to a Black person from Philly or Atlanta, and I believe that is because....THEY ARE USED TO THINGS AS THEY ARE. On an "intellectual" level most blacks DO AGREE with me---just as you said----but my fire and nagging (my VIGILENCE) comes from the fact that they are DOING NOTHING about it.
I use my entire LIFE, my books, my speeches, my tours, my money, my relationships---EVERYTHING---to save my seed.
If black people can fight to save trees, to save whales and throw paint on people's coats to save Chinchillas.....then I don't see why I can't do the same for BLACK CHILDREN. And do it with just as much insanity and abandon. ULTIMATELY---because I am swimming so against the tide---I really do HAVE TO BE "insane" to take on such a mountain as overwhelming as this one----which is Cynique's point when she says that I'm fighting a "Losing cause". So my methods...I KNOW IN MY HEART....are actually the "right" methods, by virtue that in 200 years from now-----people will remark and give credit that I was on the RIGHT SIDE.
I also reject the American notion that I don't have the right to IDENTIFY my own children---to DECIDE, as an African, WHAT IS BLACK and who my children are. That is a big RED LIGHT that makes me ignore Black American People's arguments, because constantly in this discourse....they PROVE that they do not value "blackness" itself---but would rather see themselves as simply "people"----which is a kind of ZOMBIE-state that comes from slavery and from having NO IDENTITY and from being disconnected from their own natural world.
A lioness does not ask permission to protect her children...or permission to be impregnated....or permission to bite and attack anything that shes as a threat to her children's well being.
I do not accept the idea that Black Americans can become a MULATTO race and still be worthy of respect and noble standing in the eyes of their ancestors and Africa. It's MY RESPONSIBILITY to "attempt" to enlighten them and to "attempt" to STOP THEM from committing suicide. I am---in the historical, spiritual sense---a "Representative" of their mother, their REAL mother. And I have every right and responsibility to dissuade them from going.....the wrong way.
Assimilation is wrong.
Anytime that people cannot accept you as you are-----and take you as you are------then they will NEVER accept you, NEVER take you. You are just chopping away bits and pieces of yourselves---for nothing.
And yes, IN THIS CASE---the subject of assimilation and ERASURE of my race----it certainly "IS" my way or the highway. No different from the tenets of White Supremacy---which makes the same claim.
There is no way for me to WIN and save my children.....if I do not set ABSOLUTE goals.
And these are my ABSOLUTE rules:
(1) That Black Human beings---MUST SURVIVE "as themselves".
(2) That Black Children----MUST BE BORN.
(3) That the Black Race, which was created FIRST and in the image of GOD and who are the REAL HEBREWS, the actual chosen people that the world mocks and sullies, must not perish---and that Black Hair (the PROOF as we Nilotics call it) and Black Skin and Black looks, must not perish and be asunder the might of other races.
These are "ABSOLUTE"----because I am not a slave nor a black slave trader, I am not the "sidekick" of the Caucasoids, I am not a maid, I am not inferior and I am not LESS LOVED "God" than anyone else.....I am truly EQUAL, and therefore, I demand my complete and whole existence------as MYSELF-----and this cannot be COMPROMISED.
I am NOT trying to PERSUADE anybody about anything---I am TELLING THEM what I want in this world...just like they told me.
I am bringing a MESSAGE to "MY PEOPLE"-----to KILL, to DESTROY and to ANNIHILATE anyone who is against the birth of our people.
I am a very important person...I am the MOTHERSEED....
I don't have to be right/What I have to do---is be a MOTHER.
Make decisions and give guidance and leadership...right or wrong.
I agree with Malcolm X. You cannot have real true persuasian in this war against White Supremacy without BLOOD.
After all the BLACKS that Whites have MURDERED to "persuade" you to be what you are now----I don't understand why blacks have failed to pick up on that one lesson of their MASTER whose every action they usually COPY and EMULATE.
And since Malcolm X is one of those rare people who will NEVER DIE--whose WORDS have proven that he could not be KILLED--I think he is a good husband to listen to.
The good thing about being an African woman...is that I have many brave husbands to call on from the other world.
The Gods Love Africa.
So goeth he, goeth I.....and in the stolen WORDS of my ancestors, the ancient NUBIANS:
"so as my foot decree---so let it be done"
____________
OR...in the words of a gun-toting Harriett Tubman:
"It's my way...or the highway."
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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 289
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 02:45 pm: |
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Kola: if one goes back and really studies people like Harriett Tubman----illiterate, gun-toting people like TUBMAN whose speeches to Slave folk who DID NOT believe they were slaves and who rebelled against anything being done to change their status-----if someone studies this, they will see that Tubman's plan of action was even more "Wobbly, un-planned, unapologetic and Gut-born, knee-jerk" than my own pathological work in this NEW FORM of the same old shit.
Mah: Kola, I do understand and appreciate that you are working in this same spirit.
Kola: What is URGENT and worth Pannicking over to me as a Nilotic person----is often something that is NOT URGENT to a Black person from Philly or Atlanta, and I believe that is because....THEY ARE USED TO THINGS AS THEY ARE. On an "intellectual" level most blacks DO AGREE with me---just as you said----but my fire and nagging (my VIGILENCE) comes from the fact that they are DOING NOTHING about it.
Mah: Your fire and nagging doesn't keep me from seeing the honor and passion in your work.
But you mentioned, for example, wanting validation from me as a Black American woman, and I think that's the part that is confusing. You want to build bridges with Black Americans, but at the same time you've got your "fire and nagging." Not absolutely incompatible, and both have their place, but they can certainly get in the way of each other.
You mention Harriet Tubman, Nikki Giovanni, and James Baldwin. In spite of their nagging, they got slaves to follow them and white people to grin and listen to them call them out, respectively. I think this was possible because when they stopped running (in HT's case) and when the speech was over (in NG and JB's case), they all sat down and broke bread together. Therefore, I find it INTERESTING (there ya go, ABM), that you often say you wish you could feed people a meal and such. I think this makes a real difference. Not to say that the fire and nagging has to be tempered, but rather complemented. |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 730
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 03:51 pm: |
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Mahoghany:
But you mentioned, for example, wanting validation from me as a Black American woman, and I think that's the part that is confusing. You want to build bridges with Black Americans, but at the same time you've got your "fire and nagging." Not absolutely incompatible, and both have their place, but they can certainly get in the way of each other.
KOLA:
But Black American women.....eventually.....will have no choice but to validate "ME", otherwise they cannot validate themselves. The come from me and the "river"----once you come from Africa; there is no place else to come from.
What I meant earlier....is that I love you so much (Black American women; Carribean women)....that it hurts me to fight with you. I am not in any way AGAINST your way of life---just because we don't agree on some things.
And I cannot be "too soft"...or the ones like CYNIQUE and the Hip Hop gang "niggaz" will slaughter me. I have to be BAD ENOUGH...to take on an entire gang....BY MYSELF.
________________
IN THE END....
I would love to all bake bread together. But not in the way that Martin Luther King Jr. espoused. His way places too much value on whites and patronizes them.
I want to feed, entertain and LOVE the people who acknowledge that I am ALREADY in the body that God intended...that I am already.....a perfect representative of humanity.
WE AFRICANS (meaning all of us BLACK FOLK) are already "hospitable, friendly, INCLUSIONARY people". That is who we are. WE WHO ARE AFRICANS (worldwide, the blacks)....already LOVE everybody.
Our race...never had a problem with that.
SO the most IMPORTANT "bread-breaking" is between one African......to another. And that is the essential strength...that we do not have right now. We have not maintained our own Village---so the WORLD eats us alive.
Again---I know you and I are of the same fabric, Mahoghany. I'm not telling you anything that you don't already know.
I'm just chatting while I wait for the cranberry-lemon juice to DRY into the rhubarb shell for my peach cobbler.
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Babygirl
Regular Poster
Username: Babygirl
Post Number: 41
Registered: 04-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 06:13 pm: |
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Kola,
How do you do your rhubarb shell? I haven't had anything rhubarb since my Nana passed away. |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 734
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:18 pm: |
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Hi Babygirl.
When I make Peach Cobbler---my Nana (the one from North Carolina) taught me to make the "crust" into a kind of separate Rhubard desert.
First...I have my sons make me up a bowl of DOUGH from Half-Wheat flour and half Maslim flour (a brown African flour) and put in refrigerator that same afternoon for 2 hours.
I take the Rhizomes of the Rhubard plant (the fleshy leaf like part) and blanche them hot water. Then I pound those lightly and then Puree' those with light Brown Sugar and honey, about a Quarter Jar.
I take the long, thick stalks of the Rhubard---which is the part that really tastes GOOD----I take those and boil those, but in "little water" to retain the juices. I boil it with sugar, cinnamon and Vanilla Extract. Then I mash those up real good until it's like a good paste.
THEN...take the Rhizome Puree and take your bowl of DOUGH and mix that Rhizome in..fold it in real good. After that, you mix in your STALK PASTE----by now your DOUGH is just a big Rhubarb ball.
You take that Rhubarb ball and make you a few good aprons and then you CUT IT however you want your slices for your peach cobbler.
Most people don't make a "BOTTOM" for their cobbler----I like to make a Rhubarb bottom with NO SIDES and then layer the Rhubard Strips over the top of my Cobbler filling.
MARINATE:
But I marinate my Rhubarb APRONS in cranberry and lemon juice, a bit of Baking Powder, Rum Extract and sugar for like 8 hours. Let that absorb, soak in and dry. You can put walnuts all over the BOTTOM of the cobbler.
I bake it a good 1 hr. 15 min. on 250--but my oven is out in the wilderness, so you may should do 350 in the city.
I just took it out the oven before I came in to see what you all were doing.
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Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 735
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:32 pm: |
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I gave you the recipe ABOVE
*********
Best way to cook Rhubarb
----get yourself the actual "plant".
I only cook it from the plant. That way, you got both the Stalks and the Wedges and you can do A LOT of stuff with pies and deserts and you get the full FLAVOR.
I don't put Rhubarb in my sweet potato pie crust, though, like some of these white women do their pumpkin pies.
They really don't understand that Rhubarb and Yams, Pumkin or Squash DO NOT go together for your "system". It makes you SICK. They get heartburn and "headaches" and cramps in their feet and wonder why.
Rhubarb goes with fruits like Peaches, Apples, Pears, Apricots-----you want to put either a SAUCE (with LEMON juice acid) or some Ice Cream over top it to cut out any chance of HEARTBURN or use RUM extract and brown sugar to....stop Constipation.
Girl, I had to stop trying to help them cook. Black American women and ASIAN WOMEN are the only ones I met in California who got any real "science" to cooking, I found out. These white women don't know about "nature" and what goes with what for Health Reasons. For instance when they make Caramel----they put NO LEMON JUICE in it. They just let the sugar burn until it's gooey---this is why they retain fat in their thighs.
I stay to myself.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2524
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 12:59 am: |
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Mah,
I’ve gottah admit. I’m getting a bit lost with the Kola vs. Calvin Klein comparison. So I’ll just give you that one and move on.
But, do you really find Kola to be especially dogmatic?
Then perhaps you should (re)read some of the things Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, Frederick Douglas, W.E.B. DuBois, Booker T. Washington, Marcus Garvey and Malcolm X said to/about others – especially Blacks – who disagreed with them.
The castigations between DuBois and Washington are a part of Black folklore. And didn’t DuBois once become so enraged by Garvey that he referred to him as a “Black monkey”?
I’d say by, historical standards at least, Kola’s in pretty august company.
I don’t feel a need per se to defend Kola. She appears to do a bang-up job in her own right.
I concede Kola’s methods often make her an easy target.
And I agree Kola often appears be high on policy and short on procedure. Although, as I think back, to be fair to Kola, she has often been specific about what she thinks should be done.
Perhaps we’ve focused on the more sensational aspects of her presentation or, maybe we simply disagree with and/or ignore it (in particular the African traditions she cites that we AA’s may have trouble relating to).
But what I’ve observed is often the merits of what she says become lost amid a deluge of squabbling that’s only tangentially related the main point.
For instance, I for one think your being light, brown or dark is hardly relevant to whether you present a valid argument.
Now I agree that Kola more often than you picks that scab. But it seems that many here, yourself in particular, will then expend abounding dialog of the “You don’t even know NOTHING about me.” variety.
Again, no offense: Whether or not that’s true doesn’t really matter. Because I personally have no idea whether you are as light as Lonette McGhee or as dark as Alek Wekk. That doesn’t factor into the how I view your arguments.
I disagree with you about the degree to which others aspire to eradicate colorism. I think we both individually and collectively do very LITTLE to address that issue.
Yes. We may do many other things. But I’ve seldom seen ANYONE confront that issue with the verve/vigor/depth/breadth to which Kola does. Now, if you think otherwise, then I’ll ask that you please enlighten me.
And I always find it “interesting” (just no getting ‘round that trite adjective, is there?) how we brag about what we individually do to cure problems that are simply to big for any one person to hope to thwart.
Seriously, can one hope to eradicate racism, colorism, etc...”quietly”?
The solutions you refer to seem fine (if not a bit canned) for some things. But I’m not sure how they’ll specifically address the colorism issue. Because, in truth, our communities are already replete with celebrations of “blackness” programs.
Are they working? (Rhetorical question)
I can hardly imagine who Kola’s most ardent supporters/audiences are, though I doubt they can be easily pegged.
Because no matter one’s history, background, geography, there’s one thing that’s metaphysically certain: Black foks across the globe are on the *$$-end of almost EVERYTHING. And Blacks of most any stripe might consider it hightime that something must radically occur to change that...even if it’s initiated via some tata-bearing Sudanese chick.
Maybe, as Kola suggest, the turnaround will start with us loving our ownselves enough to want to ‘be’ Black.
I agree there can be a fine-line between ardent persuasion and alienation. I don’t have the formula for achieving the optimal balance. But I think it probable that one must risk the latter to achieve the former.
Btw: You probably should have tried to keep the Yale-thing under wraps. Because the “self-righteous po’ Kneegrow from the wrong side of the tracks” element within me will be compelled to f*$% with that from time-to-time! Hehe!
Kola,
Truly, I mean no disrespect to them. But what’s sadly ironic is the more people like Cynique and Mah speak, the better I understand and appreciate what you say...and HOW and WHY you say it.
But then, maybe I’m turning crazy too. Hehe!
Stay encouraged My Brave Sister. And remember: Jesus was quite a pest to A LOT of fok. He caught hell for it too. But he turned out okay in...the end. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 291
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 02:39 am: |
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ABM: But, do you really find Kola to be especially dogmatic?
Mah: No, and I never said I did. I find many more people--Calvin Klein not among them--to be far more dogmatic. Like the Religious Right and many evangelical Christians, for example.
ABM: I’d say by, historical standards at least, Kola’s in pretty august company.
Mah: Of course you would. ;-) But again, my criticism of Kola hasn't included such broad commentary as her standing among her historical counterparts. I feel as if I'm being SINGLE OUT (ha!) as a spokesperson for Everyone Who has Every Disagreed with Kola or Picked Apart Her Arguments--a job I hardly relish, mostly because I'm not even one of her harshest critics. There is much about Kola to be admired.
ABM: I don’t feel a need per se to defend Kola. She appears to do a bang-up job in her own right.
Mah: I think so too. That was her observation, not mine.
ABM: And I agree Kola often appears be high on policy and short on procedure. Although, as I think back, to be fair to Kola, she has often been specific about what she thinks should be done.
Mah: Kola and I have discussed this here.
ABM: Perhaps we’ve focused on the more sensational aspects of her presentation or, maybe we simply disagree with and/or ignore it (in particular the African traditions she cites that we AA’s may have trouble relating to).
Mah: Or maybe I'm just new here, like Kola observed. But while her presentation, in my observation, is sensational more often than not, when she is specific, I am much more likely to find myself nodding my head. And when she cites African traditions in particular, I take note. Always learning...
ABM: Now I agree that Kola more often than you picks that scab. But it seems that many here, yourself in particular, will then expend abounding dialog of the “You don’t even know NOTHING about me.” variety.
Mah: Context matters. If Kola's entire premise is based on skin color and she's wrong about even the skin color, that's worth a bit of dialog. Further, Kola wouldn't appreciate it if someone looked at her and made negative judgments and assumptions about her based solely on her skin color, and yet she has done the same to others [and yes, she has spoken to this issue]. Given this is at the heart of what she speaks so passionately about, I find this problematic.
And as far as the discourse spiralling into actual irrelevancy (the vulgarity, name-calling, etc.), Kola gives as well as she gets.
ABM: Again, no offense: Whether or not that’s true doesn’t really matter. Because I personally have no idea whether you are as light as Lonette McGhee or as dark as Alek Wekk. That doesn’t factor into the how I view your arguments.
Mah: No offense taken, however, your original statement about skin color (that fact that Kola picks that scab) is not to be taken lightly, imo. I think that really sets the stage for a lot of what follows next. I really don't appreciate being told "You look like THIS, so obviously you MUST think and act like that." The dialogue which follows wastes energy, I agree, because one shouldn't have to deal with such drivel before getting to the meat of the matter.
But given Kola's Baldwin/Giovanni connection, that's a conscious choice she's making, to, for example, step on light-skinned people's toes as she goes. Some, as she noted, like Kathleen Cross, get over it. Others may not.
[Giovanni digression: I saw her speak and read here recently and she was phenomenal. I gave her my card for an interview, but alas... Anyway, I did enjoy looking at the white folks grinning faces drop ever so slightly when she started breaking down the Middle Passage for them.]
End digression...
It takes two: Kola put me on the defensive with her presumptions, but I allowed her to. Touche. But as I said, I was already irritated by you, ABM, so really this is all your fault. Ha!
ABM: I disagree with you about the degree to which others aspire to eradicate colorism. I think we both individually and collectively do very LITTLE to address that issue. Yes. We may do many other things. But I’ve seldom seen ANYONE confront that issue with the verve/vigor/depth/breadth to which Kola does. Now, if you think otherwise, then I’ll ask that you please enlighten me.
Mah: I agree with you with regard to Kola's verve, etc. But to the degree that she or anyone sets Kola as the standard--if you're not operating like this then you're doing nothing--then I find that problematic. Yes, we all could and should do more. It is not that I disagree with Kola about the magnitude of the problem or the apathy of MOST black people. But I suppose I have the good fortune (or not, for the sake of this discussion) to live and work amongst people who are very conscious of these issues and work for progress. It's that whole preaching to the converted thing, I suppose. *shrug*
ABM: And I always find it “interesting” (just no getting ‘round that trite adjective, is there?) how we brag about what we individually do to cure problems that are simply to big for any one person to hope to thwart.
Mah: Brag? So, in response to YOUR question about what I do...it's bragging???? I give up.
ABM: Seriously, can one hope to eradicate racism, colorism, etc...”quietly”?
Mah: Nope, that's why Kola and others who aren't quiet are so necessary. But others who *are* have a role and a voice in the struggle too. Both/and, not either/or.
One of Kola's own solutions is how people raise their children. I think that speaks volumes, but I see that as a "quiet" solution. Not always, but sometimes. Maybe it's just semantics.
I am not trying to silence Kola, or quiet her down. Absolutely not.
ABM: The solutions you refer to seem fine (if not a bit canned) for some things. But I’m not sure how they’ll specifically address the colorism issue. Because, in truth, our communities are already replete with celebrations of “blackness” programs. Are they working? (Rhetorical question)
Mah: Not as well as they should, and I acknowledged that: the continuing need to reach the unreachable. It's the *HOW* of any program/initiative, not just the existence, I agree. My point was that some of us pursue such endeavors and with an eye (and heart) to issues of colorism.
I haven't said that Kola's work was irrelevant or unnecessary or doomed to fail. Please note.
ABM: I can hardly imagine who Kola’s most ardent supporters/audiences are, though I doubt they can be easily pegged.
Mah: Hell, that's an easy one. Among Kola's supporters are young women, like I used to be, hungry for affirmation, moved to tears by someone who knows and can articulate their pain regarding what it feels like to be considered "less than."
ABM: Because no matter one’s history, background, geography, there’s one thing that’s metaphysically certain: Black foks across the globe are on the *$$-end of almost EVERYTHING. And Blacks of most any stripe might consider it hightime that something must radically occur to change that...even if it’s initiated via some tata-bearing Sudanese chick.
Mah: By all means, Kola should do her thing.
And I have no problem with her ta-tas. My 6 y.o., however, had some questions about them from the book jacket though.
"Mommy, how come your breasts don't stand up like this lady's???"
"Sweetie, that's an old photo..."
[KOLA: I'm JUST KIDDING]
ABM: Maybe, as Kola suggest, the turnaround will start with us loving our ownselves enough to want to ‘be’ Black.
Mah: I couldn't agree more.
ABM: I agree there can be a fine-line between ardent persuasion and alienation. I don’t have the formula for achieving the optimal balance. But I think it probable that one must risk the latter to achieve the former.
Mah: You're probably right.
ABM: Btw: You probably should have tried to keep the Yale-thing under wraps. Because the “self-righteous po’ Kneegrow from the wrong side of the tracks” element within me will be compelled to f*$% with that from time-to-time! Hehe!
Mah: F*$% away, but I'm a po' Kneegrow from the wrong side of the tracks too. LOL. I dated this brother who asked where I went to school. I told him and he said, "Oh, so you from Bel-Aire or some shit?" *shaking head*
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Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 739
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 04:12 am: |
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ABM said:
I can hardly imagine who Kola’s most ardent supporters/audiences are, though I doubt they can be easily pegged.
KOLA:
What really shocks me ABM...is that the #1 group I receive letters, emails from....are Bi-racial people.
For instance, there's a bi-racial girl in Toronto that I'm sort of afraid of. She writes me EVERY DAY. She's 19 and she wants to be a "vampire" because she says she doesn't fit anywhere. She WORSHIPS me to the point of nausea. She got me in big trouble 18 months ago when I said on the radio that the "Knowledge Bookstore" in Toronto refuses to carry my books---which they do. Well, this Bi-racial girl went down there and threw bottles at the black men standing around outside the store.
She's gotten about 50 young girls in Toronto to purchase my books!!! It's amazing.
Another Bi-racial fan who disagrees with everything I say----it's a GUY---and who is a very KNOWN journalist is so hung up that I aborted my first baby by the white man....that he just stays ON ME. Writes me, tries to come up with new ways to have the same argument---offers to fly me to N.Y. for dinner and conversation. Offers to fly to L.A. and take me out to concert.
It's amazing. But I get the biggest responses, CONTACTS from people like "DELORES".
NOW...
the next group.....is dark skinned, short haired girls in the south and inner cities.
But THEIR LETTERS---break my heart, haunt me and are what cause me to be so vigilant and determined to do something. It's their letters that really make me need a drink sometimes. I feel so responsible, as an African woman to save them---yet I feel so helpless. And yet I MUST do something.
________
Next....I get a LOT of White people from my two biggest markets.....Australia and Belgium. I have no idea why I have these cult followings over there, but I do. Especially one very sweet White Woman who writes me from New Zealand...I just love her!!!
Because of being topless.....I get a lot of Celebrity Black Men who have never read my books. They just saw the cover photos and heard Bin Laden fucked me---so they wanna hit what Bin Laden hit.
Mike Tyson gave me $7,000 to put my son in private school when the big event happened with the media a few years back:
http://breaking.tcm.ie/2003/01/07/story83361.html
But I have NEVER ONCE met Tyson in person. He has not ever POOF---shown up----to see me or tried to hit. So I have a new respect for him.
______________
I tell you one thing.....if Michael Jordan ever comes calling.....his wife has my condolences.
Because I would fuck that man silly.
Now that's one man, I could not resist.
And my true DESIRE of ALLLLLL DESIRES.....is Evander Holyfield.
I would take daily ass beatings and public humiliations with white women just to be his wife. I am CRAZY for that man. Now Evander Holyfield could BREAK ME ALL THE WAY DOWN.
But does his ass call?
NO!!!
I get fucking retired Dallas Cowboys (I HATE that team!) and journalists and shit. Fat toothless ass Chicago Bears with fucking Knee Injuries--wanting some Kola pussy.
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Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 740
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 04:14 am: |
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Ed Gordon on BET NEWS is another one.
Why doesn't he ask me for a DATE?
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2530
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 08:53 am: |
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Mah,
BRAVO!
I enjoyed your provocative response. It provides several things to consider. (“And I thought I was verbose. Hehe!”)
I don’t think I meant that YOU were bragging about what you do. But that’s certainly how it appeared.
And I mostly kidding about the Yale stuff.
Kola,
I’m not surprised of the variety of people who appreciate you. Because once one get past all the heat you emit, they can appreciate the light.
And you don’t have to be some po, dark, inner city Black woman to do that (that certainly doesn’t describe ME).
As I said before, I think a person with a rational mind, no matter their background, might conclude we’ve GOT to do something different from what we’re doing. And that includes even the rich, educated, multiracial amongst us.
But be VERY VERY careful with all the Kola worship. Because we human beings have a history of killing our deities.
Gordon would scare me if I were a woman. He seems a good guy and all. But he’s so polished, he often appears gay.
As a kid, I was HUGE fan of both the Cowboys and Bears. When we played sandlot football, guys wanted to be either Tony Dorsett of the Cowboys or the Bears late-great Walter Payton.
"How 'bout dem Cowboys!!!"
You may have to struggle to get to MJ. I hear he prefer his pune of a lighter variety. I recall hearing a guy say on sport radio say that the local media could always tell when Jordan and the Bulls were visiting a town. ‘Cause every pretty White and Asian chick in the general area would be walking gapped-legged.
And I think the biggest problem you might have out of Holyfield wouldn’t be his beating you. If would instead be fighting through his +100 baby mamas and +1,000 chillens.
Dude’s laid more pipe than combined membership of the National Plumbers Association. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 193
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 09:15 am: |
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All y'all are too too much!
Not much to add--still catching up. But Kola, regarding Jordan, I'm from Indiana and for years folks there have known about his southern Indiana white women. From what I have seen they are typical of that area: some would say "PWT" some would say "trailer trash," but you know the big-hair, cheap-looking type.
I just don't understand that. Julia Roberts or Nicole Kidman or some women of that sort, maybe, but why these budget-groupies?
ANYhoo... |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 294
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 09:22 am: |
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Kola:
I think we are attracted to the same kind of men, for the most part (see "Ed Gordon exception" below). I think Evander is hot, Ving Rhames, Morris Chestnutt, Don Cheadle, Mekhi Phifer until he disrespected his child's mother in a national magazine (unforgivable), Courtney Vance, Denzel, Sam Jackson, LL (but I think he's had plastic surgery), Wesley Snipes (in spite of himself).
About Tyson's generosity...Wow. Whole new respect, indeed.
ABM wrote: I enjoyed your provocative response. It provides several things to consider. (“And I thought I was verbose. Hehe!”)
Mah: Yeah, that's why it takes me forever to finish my SHORT stories.
ABM: I don’t think I meant that YOU were bragging about what you do.
Mah: Ah. Got it.
ABM: And I mostly kidding about the Yale stuff.
Mah: It's cool, really. I've had people say far worse...and they weren't kidding. Ah, life.
ABM: Gordon would scare me if I were a woman. He seems a good guy and all. But he’s so polished, he often appears gay.
Mah: See, I was just talking to my hairdresser about this. We were saying how we never had to worry about running up on the same guy. I like 'em preferably tall, preferably dark, and preferably somewhere along the "okay" to "handsome" range. She likes 'em short, light or dark, and "pretty." I don't like a pretty man like Ed Gordon, if only because I'd have to fight him for time in front of the mirror in the morning. ;-)
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2534
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 09:31 am: |
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Kola/Mah,
Funny.
It's been my observation that ALL women either overtly or secretly LOVE darkskinned men. Because there's something that seem more innately masculine, strong about being darkskinned (or, at least that how we've been bred to view such).
I suspect that's partly why the beauty of darkskinned women is not appreciated as much.
Perhaps many men view their darkness mean that you have a strength that they can't quite managed. Thus, they degrade it in an attempt to diminish the potency of your persona.
That may also explain why Blacks in general are treated badly. Maybe, at the core of all of this racism is an almost unspeakable, unrecognizable form of jealousy that has seldom been fully acknowledged, much less addressed. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2535
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 09:34 am: |
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Yvettep,
The answer to your question about budget-groupies is simple: For some brothahs, the dumber and Whiter, the better.
Prime Example: Didn't Montell William's (who was an INTELLIGENCE officer in the freakin' NAVY) marry a White stripper? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2536
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 09:39 am: |
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Addendum: "...dumber and Whiter, the better. Because you have the dual benefit of having a White woman who (they presume to be) easier to control, than, say a "Julia Roberts". And let's be REAL, how likely is it that Roberts would marry ANY Black man? Not very (though, I think were the guy Denzel Washington, she's make an exception ('cause that chick LOVES her some Denzel!)." |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 741
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 10:49 am: |
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ABM---
"Darker men" are OVER-Represented in the media...to portray the "stereotypes" that White Supremacy EXPECTS of dark, black swarthy athletic men----Stereotypes that WOMEN DO lust after in men, and as a consequence, the MEDIA (once again) has created an ARCH TYPE....one that ALL black men measure themselves against and try to live up to.
I have never seen Ed Gordon as "pretty" or "gay". I once met him in person in D.C. where he was giving a speech (I was only in the audience)----he seemed very intelligent, EXTREMELY masculine and very suave without being the least bit pretentious. I have ALWAYS been in love with him. I believe his WIFE was with him---a pretty light skinned woman, although, she was "darker" than him.
He is DEFINITELY fine as hell and he really likes black women---there was no mistaking his rejection of the white women who rushed him after the event----he was constantly scoping us black women.
One thing I like----are smart handsome men with GLASSES, the intellectual, sort of bookworm type----I find these men are VERY OFTEN more studly in bed than the athletic ones.....and one thing that I found out about THOMAS, who is very muscular and insecure about his "Beligian" looks.....is that he was a SMART GUY BOOKWORM....using his dark chocolate athletic looks to PASS as the "hot bad boy" that women want. He felt PRESSURED to be that image.
But what won me...was his ability to conversate and his stunning intelligence----something I had not expected in HIS PACKAGE. But being dark, he had to act like a dark boy.
MANY of our choices are dictated by MEDIA CREATED IMAGES that inform Michael Jordan (and other black boys) what he's SUPPOSED TO BE.....while leaving a high yellow version of him in the lurch, because although the high yellow Michael Jordan is pretty much the same type of guy (RICK FOXX)....the FEMALES are programmed to reject him as a "pretty boy" etc. just because he doesn't have the prerequestite darkness that GOES with the "phantom image" we internalize.
I would LOOOOOVE to fuck Rick Foxx's yellow self---although, he's really an asshole.
DEESHA---you're right. I do prefer deep dark black men. However, it is more from an African standpoint than a Media-created one. I still maintain that MOST Black people in Africa, WITHOUT exposure to media conditioning, would BOTH (male and female) choose the Darkest, Blackest MATE they could find. Just as WHITES in Sweden, Norway, Finland choose the blondest, whitest they can find. The entire notion of "light skinned" beauty comes from BEING CONDITIONED by a dominant White culture that in order to be beautiful---we must have white or OTHER blood.
Without that conditioning----Black African people (for instance in South Sudan, the Congo, Ethiopia) are "repulsed" by very light skinned people. OR rather---those people are invisible to them. Just ask women who look like Halle Berry who've traveled to the REAL Africa.....they will tell you how the people wouldn't respond to them (other than with pity)..because they are considered "white".
And ABM you are right. As I pointed out earlier with the PHOTOS of gorgeous dark women-----they, just like their high yellow MALE counterpart-----are simply rendered INVISIBLE, which automatically sends out the message that they don't exist....and that when you encounter them in real life....you are to regard them as DEFECTIVE, because they are not SHOWN being "chosen" in the arena where it counts.
MOST colorstruck Black Men would agree that many of those "dark cocoa" women are very beautiful.......but the women still lack STATUS and are still not ORDAINED as "beauty" by the powers that select STATUS. THEREFORE, those black men would prefer to "fuck/exploit" those dark beauties....but present/choose the White, Light one in PUBLIC. Just as women like MAHOGANY very often will sex/kill time with a cute High Yellow guy----but dump him in a minute for Morris Chestnut.
STILL.....I maintain that High Yellow men are still not NEARLY as marginalized, scorned and "dis-allowed" as the authentically Black, deep dark woman is. There's a whole nother set of REASONS that she is dis-allowed that go far beyond social standards and have more to do with racial genetic power. As I said----to kill the nest, you must first kill the Queen. And WHITES do this by making us incapable of even identifying who is the QUEEN.
Of course...the QUEEN is always the one who is the "MOST PURE" of her people. But Whites NEUTRALIZE "blackness" by teaching us that MIXED WOMEN are the "Queen" of our people-----and through those mixed women we constantly dilute and loose "acculturation", because those women by virtue of their genetic makeup can never completely succomb to the will of the Black people. Inside them, ALWAYS...is another reality, another world of which they belong.
95% of Black Americans could not even IDENTIFY The Black Man's Mother. That's how thoroughly successful our "enslavement" has been.
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Cynnique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 02:03 pm: |
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So, Kola, why do you keep trying to morph yourself into Greta Garbo with her ivory, sculptured, Nordic, square-jawed face with its deep-set eyes, thin lips and acquiline nose?? You resemble her in no way, not even when it comes to being mysterious because you spill your guts on a regular basis... I figured this was a good post in which to inject my comments because you are always pointing the finger at others. heh-heh |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 746
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 02:09 pm: |
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Actually, Beloved Mother.
It's the NEW YORK TIMES and NEW YORK OBSERVER and other media outlets who keep calling me "the African Garbo".
I asked people on here WHY they think that is??
I agree with you. I don't look a damned thing like Garbo---although, I do love her films-----and I think as one black scholar told me....
Garbo and I are both "androgynous looking" with husky voices and supposedly MYSTERIOUS women.
I think the VIDEO coming up will change the idea that I'm "androgyous looking". I really have tried to down play my looks to be taken seriously in LITERATURE....
but people will see that I look a LOT BETTER on "moving film" than I do in still pictures.
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Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 747
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 02:10 pm: |
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Especially since I've lost about 12 pounds.
But DRATS---my breasts, at last, are "sagging".
"DIARY" will be my last topless back cover.
MAYBE
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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 301
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 02:32 pm: |
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IS TRUTH LIBERATING?
by Haki R. Madhubuti
if it is truth that binds
why are there
so many lies between
lovers?
if it is truth that is liberating
why
are people told:
they look good when they don't
they are loved when they aren't
everything is fine when it ain't
glad you're back when you're not.
Black people in america
may not be made for the truth
we wrap our lives in disco
and sunday sermons
while
selling false dreams to our children.
lies
are refundable,
can be bought on our revolving
charge cards as
we all catch truth
on the next go round
if
it doesn't hurt.
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Cynnique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 02:58 pm: |
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Truer words were never spoken than these by my Chicago home boy. |
Cynnique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 04:12 pm: |
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Kola says:
"It's the NEW YORK TIMES and NEW YORK OBSERVER and other media outlets who keep calling me "the African Garbo"....and I think as one black scholar told me Garbo and I are both "androgynous looking" with husky voices and supposedly MYSTERIOUS women.
Cynique comments:
Well, beware of babyboomer members of the media and the labels they put on people, expecially since a lot of them aren't that up on the finer points of our yesteryears, as evidenced by one who had apparently only heard of a lengendary jazz musician and referred to him in an article as "the lonliest monk" instead of "Theolonius Monk." I don't think either you or Garbo look androgynous; she was considered a great beauty in her day because of her long-lashed, long-haired, glamourous femininity. Her voice was low, but not husky and she spoke with a very guttural accent. From what I've heard of your voice, it's high and modulated, not husky. And rather than appearing masculine and mysterious, you actually have a look of wide-eyed, girlish innocence. |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 749
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 04:57 pm: |
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BELOVED MOTHER!!!! You actually said something NICE to me!!
God. I'm going to cry...and my fingers are now WITHERING from the keyboard.
I'm just TOOOOOO HAPPY!!!!
Thank you.
Now I go cry with joy.
NOTE:
I have received some small piece of the APPROVAL I have been seeking from one I admire and who is...painfully HONEST.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2541
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 08:02 pm: |
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Cynique paid what appeared to be a compliment to Kola.
Mark this here as the day that the Apocalypse hath begun! |
Cynnique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:09 pm: |
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Was what I said a compliment? Or was it just some observations???? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2549
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:18 pm: |
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'Cynnique',
I think your saying kola "...have a look of wide-eyed, girlish innocence." might be consider by some a compliment...especially to someone who dreads aging as much as Kola does. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2550
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
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Here's an anecdote that supports some of what Kola often complains about:
I was recently watching the "Fat Albert" movie with my youngest daughter. What I found bizarre was Fat Albert's 'love interest' in the move was some Hispanic girl.
Now, it's not really a big deal and all. But why the f*$% would they feature a non-AA girl in what has been a pretty positive Black American artform UNLESS somebody's trynah confuse SOMEBODY?
I admit, watching that as a father of young Black girls, that kinda pissed me off. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 307
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:41 pm: |
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Start of a trend, ABM? Look at the love interests of the new Kojak (Ving Rhames) and Will Smith in "Hitch." |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2559
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:15 am: |
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Mah,
Yep. Noticed those to. And Smith's "Hitch" made a mint.
So we can expect a LOT more of these Choco latte combinations. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2560
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:17 am: |
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In fact, the chick with Will was Denzel's honie is both "Training Day" and "Out of Time".
It's like there's a Latin punanny envasion on the brothahs. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 309
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:20 am: |
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That's RIGHT! Eva Mendes. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2562
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:25 am: |
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Yeah. Eve Mendez, aka 'Brothah Killah'.
And I think Will hit it too.
Cause when the movie came out, there were these pics of him swapping spit with her. And then there was the talk of him/Jada having an 'open ("Babe. Can I PULEAZE bone other women?") marriage. |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 761
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:27 am: |
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500 years after the transatlantic slave trade...
and 1,000 years after the East African slave trade...
Black People are just as DUMB as they ever were.
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Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 762
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:30 am: |
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You reap what you sow.
This new "trend" is just evidence that we will ALWAYS be the slaves and niggerstock of the Free World.
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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 312
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:35 am: |
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Yeah, I've heard for years that Jada and Will "swing." |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2565
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:45 am: |
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Kola: "500 years after the transatlantic slave trade...and 1,000 years after the East African slave trade...Black People are just as DUMB as they ever were.
ABM: Yeah. But, well, at least we can still dance, sing and shoot hoops.
Mah,
Will playing a dangerous game with the swinging. Because all he's got to do is find out some Fitty Cent type of MOFO is destroying Jada's stuff while she's digging every minute of it and he ain't NEVER gone be able to handle that $#*+. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 316
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:50 am: |
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ABM,
You don't think that works both ways? |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 317
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:51 am: |
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And what makes you think Will isn't a destroyer? I figure he must have it like that if he's cool with her running around. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2569
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:12 am: |
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Mah,
I don't know whether Will's a "destroyer". But even the greatest gunfighter can get gundown...especially if he get's into too many showdowns.
And guys are dumb.
He probably figure she won't do it. She's got kids. This great public image, etc. And she wouldn't want to be caught booty-up on the cover of the National Enquirer.
And even if she does, it won't be that serious. Little sex, just some googly eyed attention.
But women can be more evil than 100 men put together.
I have no doubt in my mind that she's done some things out of revenge that Will don't know about that might straight-up SHOCK his @$$ into a mental institution.
And she's probably done them in their bed. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 321
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:14 am: |
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Dang, ABM! What makes you so certain Jada gets down like that? Just 'cause she was close to 'Pac? What??? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2572
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:25 am: |
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Mah,
I've ALWAYS been suspicious of that Tupac thing too. 'Cause when ever she talks about him she get's that 'look'. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 324
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:29 am: |
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Yes, she does! They went to high school together, but I think there's more there.
And did you read where she called trifling thug wannabe rappers OUT in the wake of his death? "Where ya guns now? Why you not out shooting people and avenging and going for bad NOW? When it's real?" The interviewer asked her if she was advocating violent retaliation for Pac's murder, and then she kinda backed down, if memory serves. I think this was in Essence a few years back.
She's not the most media savvy, which is often a good thing, imo, in a celebrity. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2575
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:39 am: |
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Yeah. She's actually probably more candid than I'm sure her PR people appreciate.
'Cause SHE was pretty upfront with the swinging thing. My wife thinks, though, that was her attempt to embarrass Will into curb his extramarital exloits.
Perhaps.
And I don't quite get all of what Kola says on the Black female thing. But I think its straight booty for a married Black man to bust-slobs with Latina women while his Black wife and kid are at home watching the whole thing on TV. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 327
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:43 am: |
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ABM: And I don't quite get all of what Kola says on the Black female thing. But I think its straight booty for a married Black man to bust-slobs with Latina women while his Black wife and kid are at home watching the whole thing on TV.
Mah: With Denzel in particular this is interesting. For years, he didn't want to do nudity and such because of his kids. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2577
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 01:46 am: |
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Mah: With Denzel in particular this is interesting. For years, he didn't want to do nudity and such because of his kids.
ABM: Yet when they break out the Cubana punanny, dude's gungho fo' dat $#@+! |
jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:15 pm: |
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Kola, I was gonna ask you about that manuscript Virgin in The Beehives...you told me about that a few years ago. Anyhow, you mentioned you like Greta Garbo's films...have u seen her in the silent film "Flesh And The Devil" 1927 ? |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 771
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:21 pm: |
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Yes, Jackie, I own "Flesh and the Devil" ---from 1926.
I named my novel after it.
But the media was calling me "The African Garbo" for 2 years before that book was released in the U.S.
And although I love Greta....she's not one of my TOP favorites from the old days: Bette Davis, Joan Crawford, Clara Bow, Katharine Hepburn, Barbara Stanwyk, Marilyn Monroe, Gary Cooper, Montgomery Clift, Gloria Swanson.....THOSE....were my favorites.
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jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:24 pm: |
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Well, I hope u can find a publisher for Virgin In The Beehives...That's a bad ass title. The title alone is intriguing. |
jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:32 pm: |
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I just watched a Bette Davis film today The Dead Ringer and last month I watched "What Ever Happened To Baby Jane ?" Hilarious but wicked. Bette Davis is one of my all time favorite actresses from that era. I also liked crazy Shelly Winters. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2604
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 04:09 am: |
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Kola,
I agree darker men are more represented via media than lighter brothahs. And I can buy that this may be my design.
I still think, though women of all types innately prefer darker men.
‘Black’ just straight looks better when bald, muscled and in motion.
(For instance: I defy anyone to describe a more splendid expression of physical human power and grace than that 10 Black men running in the Championship round of an Olympic 100 meters race.).
And the reason why the NBA remains so popular, in spite of its troubles, is you have all the long, muscular BLACK men flexing, running, jumping and sweating(...all over each other). In fact, when you REALLY think about that. Then contrast it with the almost-totally WHITE stadium audiences; the whole thing seems obscenely pornographic.
Also, the sunlight reflects more beautifully upon Black skin. There’s some quite divine about that. And white teeth contrast so blissfully versus Black skin that I can almost see why jealous non-Black foks would want to defile and kill smiling Africans.
I like Gordon too. And BET lost a lot of class and esteem when he left for NBC(?) a few years ago.
It’s just that when I see him on TV, he appear to delicately groomed and coiffed, I can’t help thinking he’s swordfighting with other guys.
But I’m sure you’re more right about him than am I.
And I agree the Gordons and Shemar Moores of the world are in NO WAY as marginalized as dark Black women. ‘Cause I don’t know very many lightskinned guys who can’t get laid. |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 775
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 04:16 am: |
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(For instance: I defy anyone to describe a more splendid expression of physical human power and grace than that 10 Black men running in the Championship round of an Olympic 100 meters race.).
______________
BUT I feel the same exact way about viewing the FEMALE form.
Nowhere have I ever...and I mean EVER...seen it more athletic or better represented than by SHINY pitch black Naked African women walking across the plains or along the Nile or in the desert. But, of course----the image of women THAT BLACK are "not allowed" and never shown this way.
My anger and frustration is that it's DELIBERATE.....the way the blackest of black women are not allowed to be represented....unless in a negative way or unless the most unattractive of the bunch is singled out (as Hollywood and Media does). It really pisses me off, because TO ME.....the deepest pitch black women of Africa are infinitely more beautiful, striking and intriguing than Halle Berry, Angelina Jolie, Beyonce, Gabrielle Union.
It's really unfair that REAL, Authentic Black women are NEVER even shown.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2605
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 04:27 am: |
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Mah: And did you read where [Jada Pinkett Smith] called trifling thug wannabe rappers OUT in the wake of his death? "Where ya guns now? Why you not out shooting people and avenging and going for bad NOW? When it's real?"
ABM: I don’t in principle advocate vigilantism. Because even if the cause seems just, you never know where or even IF it’ll end or if the most vulnerable and innocent of people won’t be mistakenly consumed via a fury of self-righteous fire.
HOWEVER...
I TOO find it (Oh come on. I gottah say it!)...INTERESTING that in spite of the ubiquitous mourning, eulogies, soliloquies, books, magazine articles and documentaries over ‘Pac and Biggie (and Run DMC’s Jam Master Jay, for that matter) over the last 10 years, there’ve been NO meaningful efforts by ANY within the rap community to either determine who murdered them or avenge their deaths.
I just can’t help thinking that the great ‘silence’ in this area means that CERTAIN foks have LONG SINCE discovered and accepted what happened...OR never really gave the dayam to begin with. |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 778
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 04:47 am: |
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The reason I try to have handsome light skinned men in my books is because if a film is ever made....I want them to get roles.
That blue eyed reddish guy on CSI could play "Shane". Although, I can't stand his ass. He's really not a "black" man, mentally. But he could play Shane I bet.
Although, I had a lighter guy in mind. I guess Shemar Moore could play him, too. He's just boring to me.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2607
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 05:10 am: |
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Kola: "Nowhere have I ever...and I mean EVER...seen it more athletic or better represented than by SHINY pitch black Naked African women walking across the plains or along the Nile or in the desert. But, of course----the image of women THAT BLACK are "not allowed" and never shown this way."
ABM: Alas, I've yet to behold such a sight, perhaps in part for the reason you cite. But if I'm blessed to, I imagine I'll enjoy it as do.
Kola: "It really pisses me off, because TO ME.....the deepest pitch black women of Africa are infinitely more beautiful, striking and intriguing than Halle Berry, Angelina Jolie, Beyonce, Gabrielle Union."
ABM: Now, of course you know when you say such things, you're essentially kicking mud on the Prada shoes of people who look like them, thus inciting further debate and consternation. Perhaps some form of such is necessary to counteract the tumult of colorism. But I fear you'll be CONSTANTLY ravaged by detractors (and even some supporters) on that point. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2608
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 05:13 am: |
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The CSI guy would be better. He seems to have much more depth/charisma than Moore. Honestly, Moore only real asset is he looks great barechested. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 342
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:21 am: |
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ABM: I just can’t help thinking that the great ‘silence’ in this area means that CERTAIN foks have LONG SINCE discovered and accepted what happened...OR never really gave the dayam to begin with.
Mah: Oh, I believe folks definitely know whodunit. And while I too am no fan of vigilantism (sp?), I agree with Jada that so-called gangsta rappers showed themselves for the punks they really are by not even trying to get to the bottom of these murders. We all know that the killers could have been handed over the next day if someone had been willing to drop dime. That's why all this posthumous LOVE for Biggie and Pac sickens me (a la Puffy's song). It ain't all about the benjamins; it's all about self-preservation. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 343
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:24 am: |
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Don't get me started...
It is infinitely easier to pay tribute by spinning around in a white suit doing a semi-Holy-Ghost dance than it is to make a true sacrifice and seek justice on behalf of one's friend.
Not to single out Puffy, but he's as good a symbol as any. |
Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 344
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:35 am: |
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And taking a wide tangent...
I wish Li'l Kim believed that she was much cuter pre-surgery than she is now. Now she looks like The Joker.
She and Foxy Brown are far more attractive (well, past tense in Kim's case) imo than Faith Evans (whom someone needs to school: Disagreeing with your critics--on wax no less--that you "can't control" your drug use, um, sorta makes their point).
Speaking of these chicas, there are two sayings that bug the hell out of me:
1) "She's dark BUT she's pretty" (as if the 2 are mutually exclusive; my mother STILL says this, and whenever I challenge her, she says, "Oh, girl, you know what I mean!" And unfortunately, I do.)
2) "Light-skinned ugly" to describe usually women, as if light-skinned pretty is the norm. It's like saying, "male nurse." |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 794
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 11:48 am: |
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Rain Pryor.
"Wasted Yellow".
Yeah, I know the sayings.
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Mahoganyanais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 360
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
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"Wasted Yellow"??? I hadn't heard that one.
Ugh. |
Cynnique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:46 pm: |
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Nobody ever laments how women who wear glasses are discriminated against. If contact lenses hadn't come along, pity all of us near-sighted women. And has a leading lady in any kind of movie or play or TV drama ever worn glasses???? No, spectacles are a "prop" alway reserved for secretaries, boring intellectuals, or hapless nerds. |
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