| Author |
Message |
    
Kola Boof
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 12:10 am: | 
|
Is Michael Jackson Guilty or Innocent?
  |
Kola Boof
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 12:12 am: |
|
I personally am not convinced that he's guilty.
PLEASE...hear me out.
On the one hand....I detest the man's White Supremacist image and everything he stands for (although I was a big fan of his back when he was black).......yet ON THE OTHER HAND, I still am not convinced that the man is guilty of the charges of Molestation that are being brought against him.
I am a person...who...when in doubt, goes by her gutt feelings.
Despite the seemingly overwhelming evidence against him, there is something in my INTUITION that does not quite believe these allegations.
What do you think??? Am I wrong???
 |
Grangran Hooper
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 01:14 pm: |
|
Right or wrong is subjective. Guilty of inappropriate behavior, yes, rape questionable, bad judgment definately. PEACE! |
kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 23
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 01:31 pm: |
|
Hi Grangran,
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR POSTING!!!
I'm trying to get some discussion going on up in here. LOL
I love you.
Kola
|
kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 24
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 01:32 pm: |
|
GranGran,
Be sure and leave a LINK to your poetry web site next time.
KOLA |
Jen
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 10:16 pm: |
|
My intuition tells me that a man who has exhibited mental illness by trying to turn himself into a white female, who prefers the company of pre-pubescent boys to women, and who is unable to sustain a relationship with mature women is a pedophile.
I wouldn't leave him alone with my son for 2 seconds! He's as guilty as hell if you ask me.
Jen
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 34
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 10:18 pm: |
|
LOL!
JEN thanks so much for posting and welcome to the KOOL ROOM.
|
Jen
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 10:24 pm: |
|
Kola,
Thank YOU for starting this great message board! You have some really great topics here!
Jen |
Nyibol
Newbie Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 04:18 am: |
|
Michael Jackson is guilty of changing his skin color, but I don't think that he is guilty of molesting children.
When I first came to the United States 9 years ago from Africa, he was the first American artist that caught my eyes. I admire this man so much regardless of what he has done with his skin. And he was beautiful when he use to be black and I regret so much that he erased that beauty. And as for those people who hate the color black, learning from Michael's experience trying to turn white may posibly change your mind. God does not appreciate people who hate their skin color. And in the end, after they change, they pay like Michael. Look at him now and how he is not the attractive figure at all. People call him wacko, jacko and all these names are just making him even more crazy. People are pushing him down the drain more instead of trying to help him. I think everyone deserves a chance and forgiveness, and I forgive Michael for being what he is not. But I hope he asked God and his people for forgiveness as well.
Something inside my heart tells me that this man is not the disgusting figure people think he is. I believe that he has a wonderful soul. The other reason that I believe that he's not guilty is because he praises children in some of his songs. He's a father of every child and any child. And I don't think a father who sleeps with his children is guilty of child molestation.
In this country children are left to sleep in their own bedrooms by the age of 2, 3 and they wonder why their children get kidnapped. I think that a father who sleeps in the same bedroom as his children is simply protecting them; incase there was a fire or even a kidnapper, he would be there to prevent his children from being taken away.
I just love Michael Jackson, and I am very sorry that some people think he is guilty, but in my opinion he is not. He has a great heart and extreme love for children. In the song below he sang for the children.
"THE LOST CHILDREN
We pray for our fathers, pray for our mothers
Wishing our families well
We sing songs for the wishing, of those who are kissing
But not for the missing
Chorus 1:
So this one's for all the lost children
This one's for all the lost children
This one's for all the lost children, wishing them well
And wishing them home
When you sit there addressing, counting your blessings
Biding your time
When you lay me down sleeping and my heart is weeping
Because I'm keeping a place
Chorus 2
For all the lost children
This is for all the lost children
This one's for all the lost children, wishing them well
And wishing them homeHome with their fathers,
Snug close and warm, loving their mothers
I see the door simply wide open
But no one can find thee
Chorus 3
So pray for all the lost children
Let's pray for all the lost children
Just think of all the lost children, wishing them well
This is for all the lost children
This one's for all the lost children
Just think of all the lost children
Wishing them well, and wishing them home"
-AfricanQueen
 |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 203
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Well now that the JURY SELECTION is over and there's not a single black on the JURY...how do you all think this will affect Michael Jackson's case?
Being that California people are so unpredictable--I'm just not certain.
|
butterlove20002003
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 12:32 am: |
|
Kola ,
I am undecided as well as confused in all the media jargen and how they portray evilness and blow everything out of porpotion in general.I am a firm believer in judge not lest ye be judged thyself and innocent until proven guilty,but how many alligations is it actually going to take to get the truth?As far as the previous comments above about him becomming a white female...I am a lesbian who thinks you should be you no matter what if that's who he is let him be himself without judgement.The color of your skin in reality isn't anything but a pygmantation difference anyways right?It's what is inside that counts. ~~~~Heather |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 219
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 02:56 pm: |
|
No, Heather----what's INSIDE Michael Jackson shows on the outside as far as I'm concerned and I completely loathe and detest him.
He does look like an ugly white bitch and that's all he's ever loved.
His children are PURE white.
He's a piece of non-pigmented shit in my book.
BUT....I'm still not convinced that he is a child molestor.
Some vibe inside me is not buying it yet.
Perphaps the trial will change my mind. I don't know.
|
butterlove20002003
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 08:24 pm: |
|
Kola,
once again i am going to debate ...I guess i don't understand how he is wrong for being what makes him cofortable,if he wants to get a bleach job and it makes him more comfortable looking how he does let him be,if the statement you sent back about him looking like a ugly white bitch is truely how you feel I am sorry for you.I am a butch white lesbian with short hair,I wear sean john and southpole does that mean i am trying to be a african male?I found it to be somewhat of a closed minded statement because if these are your feelings then i am ugly in your eyes also this offends me.I believe in being who you are and doing what makes you comfortable life is to short to be passing such derogitory judgements.
~~~Heather |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 224
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |
|
LOL
Heather, I apologize for hurting your feelings.
And no, I wouldn't consider you ugly.
You'd have to be BLACK to understand where my feelings about him removing the melanin from his skin and cutting up his face come from. And there are countless other blacks around the world who feel like I do....and there are many who feel like you do.
Most blacks, however, conceed that JACKSON is the walking billboard for self-hatred and are insulted how he tries to "align with blacks" only whenever he's in trouble.
But I am sorry that I offended you.
I love white butch lesbians.
But I truly believe that Michael Jackson HATES black women like me, who give birth to little chocolate sons like mines and this shit here is disgusting:
|
Nyibol
Newbie Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 12:30 am: |
|
Hi Kola!
Heather is one awesome white friend of mine, and I introduced her to this site because I thought she might be interested because like she said, she loves us black people but I don't think she was familiar with the racism among ourselves. I'm writing concerning her post because as you can see she was not happy with your previous reply.
I don't think that Michael Jackson is comfortable in his body now, as he was before; because now the entire race, black or white has turned against him for hating his skin color. And like I said before, I love Michael but I hate what he did and again, I'm sure he regrets what he did. Black people must learn from Michael and his results. And God has used many others among Michael also. There will never be another Michael because God used him so that this outraged self- hating and color changing would stop. Everything happens for a reason and we should try and love Michael after his mistake because he is still one of us.
I don't think that he is really himself now; in fact, if someone asked him, I'm hoping he will regret what he did. You know, that is what I want Michael to do is address to the black nation that trying to turn white is not the answer to our problems. The answer to our problems is to love ourselves. God is an artist and he sure well did a good job creating people differently.
And I don't think that he was trying to be a white female because he would have had a sex operation too. I've never heard of a black man whom loved the white woman so much enough to turn that way or a white male who loved the black woman so much enough to turn that way and so fourth. I am not against mixed marriages between black and white people, but I would hate the reasons if it's to have a light skinned, long haired children. Still we MUST welcome the mixed children into our world because it is not their fault; God had his reasons for uniting a black man with a white woman or a white man with a black woman, e.t.c. One cannot help whom he or she falls in love with. So I'm for love and not self-hating.
I'm only against Michael for hating his color because as you can see, he is now officially white and well Heather, Kola was right, he is not attractive , I mean to be honest, the operation turned him ugly, don't you think so? You must understand where she is coming from. I understand that one must be who or she wants to be; but Michael is not happy with himself at the present moment! If he were happy then I would believe this statement for him. I know that I would choose to die before skin color changing.
I think MJ would have been recognized as one of the most beautiful males in America if he was who he was. He was a beautiful black boy as a kid and his childhood makes me proud of him. I don't think one is who he or she is if for 1. Hates where he/she comes from (And from experience, allot of black Americans hate Africa). 2. Hates his skin color. 3. And worst of all acts on the following, as you can see, Michael acted on it. 4. I could mention sounding white (never act what you are not, "keep it real") but if Michael grew up with white people, then am sure that's where he might have picked it up from, then I don't blame him for sounding or in this case it wouldn't be acting white, but living the white culture. There is some things that we must judge on and there is some that we must leave alone, and leave it up to God. Michael is not the only black individual whom has hated where he comes from, his skin color, and acted on all of the above. I judge him and all the black people who do this---- Heather, that is not being oneself. Slavery is our history, it does not have to be our present.
When I was a college freshmen, I had an argument with a black girlfriend of mine about someone that was a light black actress; I told her that she was from Africa, and she freaked out, her eyes widened. Black Americans will not believe that light skin exists in Africa. They will not believe that since they think, "such beauty does not occur in such an ugly continent"---- is from my experience what they think. A white man though told me, "You are very different from the black American" and the reason he said this is because I embrace where I come from, I make it known and loved. Black people think white people are beautiful, but the white people think the same about us; it's suppose to be proportion but we make it uneven through continuous self-hate. Above example, Michael Jackson and many other black people have bleached their skin because they don't love the blackness. In the US, I'm turned down by the black race because I'm so much darker; and I have lived in the US 9 years and found that there's never been a white person making fun of me because I was too dark, even in a room filled of only white people. I have come to find out that most white people like what they see in my color and inside of me more than black Americans. Of course Kola I know you don't have to worry about that because you look like the rest of the black Americans. But thank you so much for standing out and bringing this out. I know and remember, praying that one day someone will stand out and make sure the world knows I am beautiful. You have done it already, I think people are more away now, so great job sister!
This color issue is something that deserves discussion among ourselves black people. If we hate ourselves, the white people will too and the rest of the world too. I believe in the saying that before one can love another; that he or she must love themselves first. Otherwise, slavery the white man never started will always exist. I use to hate white people so much because I thought they started slavery until I took American History. But I came to find out that slavery was started by the Africans. It was a trading business for money and guns. It was our mistake.
We must learn from our leaders and ancestors who embrace our continent and fought for our freedom worldwide. We wear jewelry like no other, cut our skin for beauty(that's our tattoos and I have one), we match for Jesus during Christmas. We don't celebrate birthdays, we are forever young regardless the number. We live longer, we don't pay attention to time, we enjoy life and God's creations. The Kenyans fought the white man invaders to liberate Kenya with swords and arrows vs. guns and as a result they won the war. White people love Africa and that is why they tried to invade some parts of it like they invaded America from the Indians. Of course South Africa is the other African nation that the white man invaded, but today we have black leaders like Nelson Mandela who fought for the freedom of black South Africans. And I am not very familiar with the history behind him, but he is the South African black president! We are strong and we must not destroy that. Slavery was a a business we started that we must be ashamed of and not live it. The Americans first purchased us from Brazil. And well, we all know that when we buy an item from somewhere, that we have right to treat it anyway we wanted, and the white men did exactly this.
One can imagine coming from Africa as a slave, having no idea how to speak the English language; it was not easy fighting for freedom then. But we learned and proved that we have knowledge equal to the white man, everything you can imagine, even going beyond the moon. I admire activists who fought to stop slavery, and this strength is African. And well there was also many many white people that protested and died to stop slavery, so I thank the Lord for those people. Heather, I know you would have been one of them. We are all equal and God continues to use people to show this fact. By the way Heather, Kola's father was a white man from Egypt who protested agaisnt slavery in my country the Sudan. I don't think that she is saying that white people are the enemy in her statement okay. In my opinion anyway, I think we're our own enemies when we hate ourselves.
No comment on the trial. There is not much to discuss and I don't watch the news much. I don't think he did it anyway. I will talk to you all later. God bless! |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 225
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 28, 2005 - 03:25 am: |
|
Hi Nyibol.
I have nothing against White people; I have loved many of them and can totally love and accept Heather--I just don't want to be white and I don't want my children white.
Surely, as an "equal" human being---anyone can understand that.
Heather is certainly welcome on this board and I've told her as much----but I doubt that she LOVES black people as much as she thinks she does.
Michael Jackson is a black person who deliberately turned himself into a WHITE person. He surgically removed all traces of Africa from his facial features and wears straightened hair.
He has 3 children--each one is PURE white, containing no trace of Africa or its people.
How you or anyone else can ignore this is a true testament to the power of the world's acceptance of White Supremacy and its hatred of black people.
Then a white woman like HEATHER (who claims to LOVE black people) comes along and has the gall to try and chastize ME about Jackson's right to feel comfortable in his own body, his own choice of color---because as she said---pigment doesn't matter anyway.
Well, it matters to me.
The JACKSON FAMILY (a black family) has 20 grandchildren. Only 2 of them are black.
You call that LOVE?
I don't see the WHITE PEOPLE of America being erased...but the BLACKS are being systematically turned into Mulattoes and maybe "THAT" is what white people in America feel more comfortable with.
The JACKSONS are some sick, colorstruck bastards and anyone who condones the ERASURE of another race of people does not "love" those people.
I could give a shit about yellow people coming from AFRICA to show signs of beauty to White People. They aren't the beautiful ones in my opinion.
As I said before....Heather is totally welcome here, and I'm sure that on many other issues, she and I would agree. But anyone who claims to love "BLACK" people and isn't aware of the intrinsic realities of colorism.....may as well get ready to LEARN about it.
|
Latorial
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:17 pm: |
|
What is up Kola? I hadn't planned on posting just yet, but MJ always sparks my attention.
I too have been a huge fan of Michael Jackson's since "when he was black." About these charges . . . I don't know. I'm not really sure. Why are all of these white people letting their kids spend time in Neverland anyway? I'm not saying it's their fault, but why? I think sometimes people like to get close to fame and fortune, and they don't realize the potential for mishaps like this.
I think that Michael Jackson is not only one of the biggest successes our world has seen, but I also think that he is one of the biggest "tragedies." He is what a person can become when the world tells them that how they look is not good enough! It's sad. I totally disagree with the lengths to which he has gone to "white-ify" himself, but if that's what floats his boat, what do I care. I'm not sleeping with him (smile).
His music is and always will be off the chain. Even when he's dead and gone the man will be a legend. I hate to see him go out this way, and I pray that he's innocent of raping kids. If he is, he should pay. But if he doesn't, I'll just think of it as one more for all the brothers who were convicted without just cause back in the day and even now. I don't think either one of my sons will be spending any time alone with MJ, but then again, he's not after little black boys. I think that if he makes it out of this one, we'll see a whole lot more color in his life (if you know what I mean).
Just another case, is it a black man's? I don't know. That's what it all boils down to.
Latorial Faison, Poet/Author
www.latorialfaison.com |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 237
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
|
Hi Latorial,
I agree with most of what you said.
But are you aware of the "Michael Jackson Skin-Lightening Pill" that is spreading across Africa now? (actually, it's been out for 10 years)
This German-made pill that is sweeping West Africa and Kenya and South Africa causes many people to die from kidney and liver failure, not to mention what it does to the flesh.
KOREA makes billions of dollars off Black Women's hair care products. Now Germany and Holland are going to make millions off the SKIN BLEACHING of our children.
Have you heard the term "brown'n" that is so popular in the West Indies now??? (It means a person who is bleaching their skin--usually a teenaged girl).
The MEDIA IMAGES that black people create are very powerful.
And it's sad that we don't look at Beyonce and Michael Jackson and Mary J. Blige and Snoop Dogg and recognize that whether they mean to or not---they are confirming White Supremacist Values and reinforcing them for MILLIONS of black children worldwide.
In every movie, video and most novels---the female heroine/love interest is almost always YELLOW, mulatto or bi-racial....and increasingly, these women's "WHITENESS" is promoted as a "cure" for blackness--in other words, blacks are programmed that it's virtually UNNATURAL to mate with other blacks. Just look at the continuing lightening of the Black Americans who were once so dark, proud and beautiful---so truly belonging to Africa.
I think that black adults need to stop brushing these serious issues aside and begin to realize that we are DOING NOTHING as even more brain washing is being done to a race that is already....thoroughly niggerized.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 238
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 10:55 pm: |
|
It's one thing to live in a White Supremacist world.
But it's quite another to have White Supremacy taught to us by blonde niggers and street pimps.
Sometimes...I am astonished that almost every single LEADERSHIP figure in the black community is someone who actually poisons the community.
This is no different than 500 years ago when black people stood on the shores of Africa....selling off their own flesh and blood for "gold trinkets" and "locks of blond hair".
You think Clarence Thomas and Snooop Dogg and Michael Jackson are any different than the African Kings who sold your people into slavery---which was COOOOL back then?
How many times does it have to happen?
|
ABC News
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 10:12 am: |
|
I think he's innocent too Kola
http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/wireStory?id=553277 |
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
|
Me too, I'm now even more convinced he's innocent, after reading an article from J. Randy Taraborrelli
Another article that also shows why Janet Arvizo(mother of Gavin) may well be the one who is sick in the head instead of MJ confirms this:
http://www.mj-case.net/part1.html
And I've always disliked that Bashir because of that damned interview he did with MJ.
It was obvious that the only thing he wanted, was portraying Michael as a pedophile and a total wacko. |
Yvette Perry
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 08:22 pm: |
|
If anything comes out of this case, I hope it is a recognition of "child exploitation" as a crime. Many seem fixated on whether or not he "raped" any of these children. If he only did what he himself claimed he did: "share a bed" with these kids, then that is totally inappropriate. And most likely, criminal.
It's unfortunate that the prosecution likely thinks it can only get a conviction by accusing him of sexual molestation. That obscures a more nuanced crime that is probably closer to the truth. People get sexual and intimate gratification in all sorts of ways: Some of those people use children to achieve that gratification, intentionally setting up situations and environments where they can engage in contact with kids. Note: "sex" may or may not be involved in these interactions. (For example, the sexual release may come later, after the children are no longer present.)
In my opinion, the key to exploitation is: who is the interaction for? If a child is scared, and calls out in the night, and the adult sleeps with the child to calm his fears, then that situation is for the child. If the adult designs "sleep-over" parties, and invites children to lay on his bed to play video games, and then "accidently" falls asleep with the child, then it is questionable whose needs are being met.
I do not know which camp this case falls into. But the pattern of these "parties" definitely seems to me to be closer to the latter. But the inappropriateness (and, again, possibly criminality) of this may not ever be discussed openly because our culture is too fixated on the "sex" part.
And as to him getting more "color" in his life if he get through this one: Many folks said the same thing about Clarence Thomas and about OJ Simpson... |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 244
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 08:50 pm: |
|
Yvette...Girrrrrl.
I never thought of it that way--but you are 100% correct.
I totally, totally agree with that.
And yes, it's sad that men like Clarence Thomas and O.J. and Michael Jackson really can't stand themselves and are virtual poster boys for "self-hate".
It's amazing that so many of us try to defend them. I think it's because the MAJORITY of us are deeply infected with this self-hate (and with self-destruction).
|
Nyibol
Newbie Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 03:56 am: |
|
Here I ago once more posting; but only to say that Michael is INNOCENT and I'm not skeptical about my decision as some of you here. I see a man free from all these trials. I have no feelings of him being guilty whatsoever. This man has a beautiful soul and screw the IDIOTS who take advantage of him. I have never seen this man YELL or felt that he could and I know that anyone whom is quiet and sweet and kind as Michael can be taken ADVANTAGE of extremely. So what he looks and talks like a woman; for goodness sake, not every man has the manly voice and not every man looks or has to look like a man. I guess he just dresses like a pop star as I have seen him in his 80s music videos and well no woman wears a mastache if that's what he's trying to become, lol. Evil would use anything to take someone down, and I think that he's using the "white" Michael. Pardon me, not being racist because I am not; but some know that the "white" Michael is steriotyped by the media with such names as wacko and Jacko. So the devil has found where he is most weak at and using those weaknesses to turn him down. In the end, the truth always comes and the truth always win. I know a good person when I see one; and Michael is an Innocent angel not a child molester. I know that he DESPERATELY LOVES CHILDREN and is not out to destroy them. Aside from his changes of his black features, I adore this man for his music and heart for the children. |
Nyibol
Newbie Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 04:20 am: |
|
People keep saying, "well he did say that he slept in the same bed with these children.." But this isn't enough evidence. An adult and "father figure" (to the children) sleeping in the same bed with his children doesn't mean he is doing anything inappropriate to them. The question you should all ask yourselves is what he was doing while sleeping with the children and not automatically thinking he was raping these kids. He could have just been singing to them, reading to them, doing loving stuff that a regular father would do to his children. If you would, read my first post and you would understand better what I mean. And well these children need to come out and say it for themselves with urgency.
|
Yvette Perry
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 41
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 09:06 am: |
|
Nyibol: I have no doubt that he "DESPERATELY LOVES CHILDREN." The key word here is, "desperate." Well-adjusted adults, who are able to have (relatively) well-adjusted relationships with other adults--of whatever gender and involving whatever mutually agreed upon activities--do not require with desperation the love of children to fulfill their intimacy needs. Please note my post above: I have no doubt that he did not "rape" any children. I also have no doubt that some people would like to see him prosecuted because of who he is/was or because his strangeness makes them uncomfortable.
But. Children are NOT responsible for "coming out" and defending this adult, who should have known better or at the very least who should have had people around him to tell him about himself. (Apparently Quincy Jones did just that, but he wasn't trying to hear it.)
He was not a "father figure." Fathers and father figures are always aware that they are the adult in the situation and that they must be responsible for drawing and maintaining appropriate boundaries. He, apparently, was unable/unwilling to do this.
Part of what is going on here is that many of us are hurting on many levels. Kola and others of you have talked about the reflection of some of our own self hatred that he reveals to us (and to the world). And many of us do remember a time when--we would like to think--he was whole and beautiful and talented. I may be dating myself, but my very first 45 was cut out of the back of a cereal box and I played that thing until the needle poked through the cardboard--and that song was the J5, "ABC." So what we are feeling is our own hurt. And maybe our own guilt: in wondering what must have happened to this man when he was a child to have made him turn out this way, and all we cared about was if he was going to put out another jam...
But I had to finally post on this subject because I think we are hurting for the wrong people. In our communities, domestic violence is maiming generations of young girls and boys. Child exploitation is maiming a generation of young girls and boys. Yet when cases such as OJ and this come out, we defend the powerful, instead of aiding the powerless. We are not able to abstract from OJ and MJ, who we may love and identify with, to what is going on in our own back yards with plain ole Otis and Malik Johnson.
Today, in 2005, what do you think is more common in everyday--not wealthy or famous--communities of color: an African American man being unfairly accused of molestation he did not commit or an African American child being the victim of incest or molestation?
|
Yvette Perry
Regular Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 42
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 09:12 am: |
|
I just saw again some of the photos upthread and had another thought: One thing people who exploit children are able to do extremely well is to identify those children who will be most suseptible to their explotation: children who are lonely, living in unhealthy family situations with adults who show them no affection, even children who have already been abused by other adults. In this way, it appears to the exploiter--and, unfortunately to many observers--that the child wants the attention and is benefitting from it.
Again, I do not know what the "facts" are in this case. But I think it gives an opportunity to talk about some things that seriously need discussing. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 249
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 11:10 am: |
|
Hey Nyibol!!
We all respect your opinion and it's very important that you continue to give it.
I admire that you stick to your guns, girl.
Love you.
Yvette--I'm more in line with your thoughts, and I think because you actually work in Children's Care so diligently, is why you have a deeper, more legal-minded perspective. If only we had more sisters like you in that field. Also, having two young sons (7 and 5) that I adore--I can't help but feel almost entirely concerned with the children's plight.
My heart breaks at the way our community supports R.KELLY and demonizes the 14 year old that he molested. I lost a lot of respect for Black People over that situation---and in Africa, it's far worse (child molestation) than over here.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 257
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 05:54 pm: |
|
WELL...now the little boy has ADMITTED that he LIED in the trial!!
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=4&u=/ap/20050308/ap_on_en_ mu/michael_jackson_32
What is wrong with the DA's office?
These people are a joke!
|
Nyibol
Newbie Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 15
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 08:37 pm: |
|
"Jesus Juice"????? LMAO... I read the artical, and it is hillarious, I'm just laughing in joy right now. This is seriously a story to live on and smile about. Can't wait to watch Jay Leno tonight ... see what he has to joke about now, lol. Michael is being taken advantage of through a bunch of lies. All lies, LOL. It's funny how people put him down even when he helped them... Michael helped these children trmendously; yet, they want to make money off of him by lying. The truth shall prevail. |
Medusa
Newbie Poster
Username: Medusa
Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 09:57 am: |
|
Because he's my childhood idol,I really don't want to believe those allegations. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 282
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 10:19 am: |
|
It's OBVIOUS to me that this whole thing is a lie.
These people are extortionists.
Look at all the lies the mother has admitted to telling...and all the lies the children have admitted to telling or been caught in.
They have EXCUSES for their lies.
The case should be thrown out TODAY!!!
And Michael should get a brain and keep his pastey white ass away from ANY and ALL children--except his own.
|
Medusa
Newbie Poster
Username: Medusa
Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 15, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
|
You sure right about that! lolol |
Yvette Perry
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 71
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 06:43 pm: |
|
Interesting Salon article about the case: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2005/03/26/jacko/index.html
Excerpt: But I'm here to tell you that Jackson's trial on charges of child molestation is more important than you think it is. The case presents us with a rich seam of American obsessions, a combustible cocktail of celebrity, sex, race, mass media and the administration of law and order in our society. It gives us an opportunity to understand the method to Jackson's apparent madness, to examine the ways in which he has, throughout his career, mined freakishness for its utility to him as a star. Here's a musician who hasn't recorded a great album in more than a decade and nevertheless remains, for better or worse, a cultural obsession, a national figure to be mocked or cried over, lamented or prized...
What do you all think?
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 363
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 26, 2005 - 08:16 pm: |
|
Great article, Yvette.
It's true, I think (the article--not the allegations).
What do you think?
|
My2Cents
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 27, 2005 - 03:19 pm: |
|
Haven't read the article but if nothing else if MJ don't serve time in prison, then he needs to be in a mental institution or years on a couch. If anyone else had as many allegations against him or her, with all those 'children,' they would've been committed long ago -- to prison or an institution. Even if he never touched any of those children inappropriately, he had no business having sleep overs, parties, etc., with all those children. Can't he find some friends or hanging partners his own age? What adult do you know hang around, and out, with that many who are under the age of 18? That's the main problem. Brotha got issues. And, yelling race, whether appropriately or not, won't make them go away.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 367
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 02:00 am: |
|
I agree with you My2Cents.
Implicitly.
|
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 07:18 am: |
|
I totally do not agree.
It's always easy to blame it all on the victim.
It's not because the majority shares the same opinion that they are right!
People like MJ who have a pure mind and always follow their HEART, do not conform to the rules, just because 'adults' believe that this is the 'good way'.
No, somebody who sticks close to his heart does not want to submit to the social rules made up by adults, because someone like MJ feels the distinction between right and wrong in his HEART and if the social norm implies someth else than what his heart is telling him, then he won't submit to that norm along with the crowd, because his pure intentions will not allow him to do so.
Moreover, adults don't even exist, because the true nature of a human being is that of a child. But since most people are cowards, as at one point in their life they give up their childhood and start living by society's social rules, they justify their manipulative behaviour by calling it 'adult'.
Maybe, these adults should rethink their social rules that they made up to justify their LACK of innocence and purity(which is the only true basis of real GOODNESS) and wonder why they are so obsessed with an 'adult' sleeping(read:SLEEPING, not 'molesting') with a child.
Recently I saw a documentary about MJ, 'what's going on in the mind of MJ?' the title already suggested what the underlying intention was (eventhough they claimed it was an 'objective' docu about him):breaking him off once again as the one who is sick in the head.
There was also this Diane Diamond that was interviewed; apparently a journalist..
I felt so angry after seeing and hearing her on the screen. (I read that site I inserted below, before seeing the docu and knew immediately it was THAT Diane already mentioned in the article) She's that typical parasite that injects her POISON into someone whom she knows has the whole world against him and is at his weakest moment, feeling defenseless because of all the shit he has been through and also because she KNOWS that he will never hit back like she does as he doesn't want to be that evil.
to get to know Diane D. a little better read this from http://www.mjfanclub.net/news/johnkarrys/dangerousliaisons.html:
..Is it not fascinating that no mainstream commentator has even dared to mention Diane Diamond’s suspiciously close relationship with Jim Thomas and District Attorney Tom Sneddon and her (World Wrestling Federation) spin- type of reporting? Like it or not, she has skilfully positioned herself as the key intermediary to the Michael Jackson case for those who believe he is guilty.
Now I have nothing personal against Diane. We all know of a Diane Dimond type in any work or social environment. The quintessential social climber, who is shrewd by serving the appetites of jealous and parasitic mentalities. And that’s okay, that’s her demographic, that’s the audience she is serving. But it is not legitimate journalism or a credible source of insight into the case against Michael Jackson.
However, this relationship has an uncanny resemblance with the relationship between mainstream media and ANY federal, state and/or local government. Most people know what to expect from a Fox News broadcast or a CNN Breaking News story. Their censors and editors, alike, give you just a little, so you come back for more. Sounds like a pusher, you say. What are we addicted to then?
Survey any show and it is Diane, wannabe Sawyer, Diamond who gives the initial account inside the court proceedings. From that point on, her account becomes the standard for the show or 10 minutes. It doesn’t matter whether it was the right account or the best one. It’s the first one. There is plenty of examples of traumatic historical precedence when there was an explicit self-serving relationship between the state and it’s press.
..
|
ABM
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 07:24 am: |
|
Would someone please wake me up when the prosecution manages to tender a scintilla of evidence that Michael Jackson is guilty of anything...other than being a great musician and a tragic human being? |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 369
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
|
Great post Asherah!!
Keep breaking it down---we need OPPOSING opinions to make people "think for themselves" and weigh all the dimensions.
ABM---
I have always maintained that Michael Jackson is INNOCENT of these charges. But I also agree with MY2Cents that his blatant and constant stupidity is going to be his downfall if he doesn't learn to live in the REAL WORLD with other people. He's totally self-destructive. Just look at his face and body.
If you keep sleeping with little children in your bed.....and you've already paid $20 million to another kid who accused you of "child rape"---then it stands to reason that people will eventually railroad your into prison, and at that point--you belong there for being a dumb ass.
Jackson should stay the hell away from people's children. HE HAS HIS OWN.
And the only reason that so many people in this country sympathize with him is that this is a nation that was literally built off the mutilation and hatred of Black People. Both Whites and Blacks ignore the fact that he has CASTRATED himself (turning white and producing FULLY WHITE children)....and that he has created a pathology of acceptance for white supremacy---just as Serena Williams and Lil Kim and Beyonce do with the images they create for "9-12 yr. old black kids" to aspire to, images that OPENLY reiterate the belief system that blackness is inferior "as itself" and can only be acceptable when mixed with whiteness, which is superior. No one values "black people" so Jackson goes unchecked and his destruction basically reflects the self hatred of the general black public. They stick up for him because they're wanna-be-white niggers just like he is.
|
My2Cents
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 11:01 am: |
|
If this was your child, and an adult held sleep overs with him or her and other children under the age of 18, as well as serving them alcohol, and God knows what else, then I am sure you would be singing a different tune. Just as I don't know if he's guilty of molesting that boy, you don't know for certain, that the opposite to be true. If this was the first case then my thinking would be different but this is third such case, that we know of, there could be more. Sometimes where there is smoke there is fire. He is a fool to consistently place in himself in such a position to have allegations to be made, in the first place. Adults learn from their mistakes. Obviously, it takes some longer than others. Obviously, MJ is the one adult who is obsessed with sleeping with children.
By the way, do you personally know MJ? You speak as if you do.
And, why you assumed that MJ is the victim, in this case, rather than the children? Sure, there's enough blame for everyone to claim their fair share but as they have to own up to theirs, then so does MJ. He doesn't get a bye because of his race (though he's bleached skin and distorted his face to look otherwise), his income, his star status, his singing and dancing ability, etc. |
My2Cents
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 11:06 am: |
|
Kola said: If you keep sleeping with little children in your bed.....and you've already paid $20 million to another kid who accused you of "child rape"---then it stands to reason that people will eventually railroad your into prison, and at that point--you belong there for being a dumb ass.
This is exactly my point. |
Nyibol
Newbie Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
|
Keep posting on MJ people:D I'm really hoping that this will be a topic on the University writing exam that I have to take in April:D I really need to pass this exam because it will determine whether or not I'll take courses next fall... I'm such a terrible writer, LOL. And all these exams to enter and leave a university are killin me. Anyway, I still think MJ is innocent... and am going to buy all his CDs:P |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 374
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 12:38 pm: |
|
Hey, Nyibol, if you need me to help you write anything just let me know.
_________________________
THIS ARTICLE is exactly why I can't stand Michael Jackson:
http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1268&storyid=2878717
MICHAEL JACKSON TURNS TO NELSON MANDELA
CHICAGO: Michael Jackson yesterday insisted he was innocent of child molestation charges – claiming he is the victim of a conspiracy involving his valuable catalogue of music copyrights.
The pop star revealed he looks to oppressed black men such as former South African President Nelson Mandela for strength during his court case.
"Please be patient and be with me and believe in me, because I am completely, completely innocent," Jackson told fans during a radio interview with famed civil rights campaigner the Reverend Jesse Jackson.
"But please know a lot of conspiracy is going on as we speak."
"Mandela's story has given me a lot of strength, what he has gone through.
"I know in my heart and in my experiences in life that I am totally innocent.
"It's very painful, but this has kind of been a pattern among black luminaries in this country."
The star said he also drew strength from the life stories of other great black Americans including boxers Jack Johnson and Muhammad Ali and the Reverend Jackson.
The singer added his troubles were part of a dirty tricks campaign involving his 50 per cent stake in back catalogues of songs by the Beatles, Elvis Presley and Little Richard.
"It's a huge catalogue, it's very valuable and it's worth a huge amount of money, and there is a big fight going on right now as we speak about that," he said, adding he was not broke, as has been rumoured.
"That's not true at all. That's just one of their many schemes to embarrass me and to just drag me through mud."
"It's like a feeding frenzy, just because of my celebrity. The bigger the celebrity, the bigger the target."
Jackson, who denies charges of molesting then 13-year-old cancer patient Gavin Arvizo, plying him with alcohol and holding him and his family against their will, also spoke for the first time about his recent health problems, which have resulted in him being late for court.
"I was coming out of the shower and I fell on my body weight," he said.
"I'm pretty fragile. All of my body weight fell against my rib cage and I bruised my lung very badly. I'm in immense pain. I'm in agonising pain."
Bizarrely, he went on to say how he was in perfect health.
"But I do my very best," he said.
"I am eating, yes I am. I don't want anyone to think I'm starving. I'm not. My health is perfect, actually."
The radio interview was conducted under strict guidelines after a gag order was made by the court.
The week, trial judge Rodney Melville will conduct hearings about whether to admit evidence about previous sexual molestation claims against Jackson as prosecutors try to show a pattern of alleged abuse.
______________________________
If he identifies so much with "oppressed" black men like Nelson Mandela....
....then why is he helping their Oppressors to breed them off the face of the earth?????
Why do his videos mainly show happy, dancing White Kids and Folks???
Why doesn't he publicly tell the African children to STOP taking the "Michael Jackson Skin Lightening" pill???
NO...like every other Black Mega Sellout he PIMPS and USES "black people" when it's convenient.
O.J. and Michael Jackson and Kobe Bryant need to shut the fuck up pretending they give a damn about "black men".
Shit, give birth to one, motherfuckers! I gave birth to TWO.
|
cynique
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 06:55 pm: |
|
MJ gives all indications of being a pedophile, and pedophilia is an incurable psychological aberration, one that is particularly tragic because people who have it are not to blame for their compulsive actions. That's why they are repeat offenders. Pedophiles, themselves, will admit that they can't be cured, and if left to their own devices, will molest again; some have even requested to be castrated in hopes of arresting this disorder. Michael was blessed with a great talent, but he is cursed with a terrible mental disturbance, one that makes him vulnerable to exploitation by those who know his weakness. |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2163
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 07:38 pm: |
|
asherah,
You kinda remind me of a nut…but, honestly, I mean that in a good way. |
Nyibol
Newbie Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 01:13 am: |
|
LOL Kola, you speak with such urgency and right to the point. It would be hillarious to see you go one on one with Michael himself, LOL. I'd like to hear what he really has to say... as far as going white and what his reaction is now. Yes he needs to stop makin excuses that aren't even true. This case has nothing to do with being black because after all he's really white, lol. His excuse is a failure. And Mandela should never be compared to such hypocrite. I still think he's innocent though. Man, they need to hurry up with this case so I can move on:P. |
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 08:26 am: |
|
My2Cents, I'm not 100% sure, but I am convinced that he is like what I believe he is.
And since when was it proven that he was serving the children alcohol?
Well, if you don't trust someone then you don't need to let your children hang out with that person in the first place.
But if I, as an adult for instance, goes babysitting and I sleep together with the children in the same bed because they like that, would it be justified then that people accuse me of pedophilia or blame me for possibly behaving like a pedophile? I would think they are just paranoid to make wild accusations like that.
MJ even says that he did not sleep together with them in bed, but he let them sleep in his bed, while he slept in a sleeping bag or someth.
He would be the dumbass, because of putting himself in this position everytime, but why do people need to assume that it is HE who is to be blamed for all of that? If the media, the bad-intentional people and that damned Bashir-interview didn't do him wrong by DEPICTING him as the total wacko and the big child molestor, then WE would not have this (to my conviction: FALSE )idea about him and wouldn't be making fun of him in the first place.
And I read that MJ is already angry enough at himself that he allowed Bashir to interview him.
Nobody seems to question the bully-minded media that wants to break him off, but instead they ascend in the wild gossip, not realizing the amount of bad energy they project on ONE SINGLE PERSON because of that.
It's no coincidence either, that they throw it all on Michael, because like I said, it's the easiest way; he stands alone at his weakest point and he has a face and a name, unlike any journalist that breaks him off.
I'm sure the media enjoys the power they have on the crowd, they can make them believe anything they want, they can manipulate the truth and have so much influence that they even can have someone dragged into court.
Most people don't know either what it feels like to be adulated by the whole world and then just be jeered at like a piece of garbage by so many people all over the world. I guess they will only learn from their mistakes when they experience the same as MJ.
It's safe for them to blame Michael, because they have the majority at their side and they don't stand in the spotlights like MJ does.
And no, I don't know MJ personally, but I do emphatize with him a lot.
I don't agree with everything that he stands for or does, but overall I support him as I don't stare myself blind on his flaws and I don't agree either with everyone just accusing him of this or that, making fun of him. I really don't think they REALIZE what they are actually doing.
Michael is right when he says 'the bigger the celebrity, the bigger the target.'
|
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 08:28 am: |
|
ABM,
you can't have respect for a nut, so you don't have to try manipulating me that you would mean it in the GOOD sense. Especially not, when you only dare to say it AFTER seeing that the majority disagrees with me. |
Yvette Perry
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 73
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 09:28 am: |
|
Reading back over these posts, I started thinking about Tevin Campbell. Anyone remember his case of soliciting an undercover outside of an elementary school a few years back? I can't remember the whole story, and obviously it did not get anywhere near the headlines MJ is getting.
Please note I am not equating pedophilia with being gay--the two are very separate things. And I do not know what the relationship is--if any--between people who are not free to develop their sexuality in a healthy way regardless of sexual orientation and people who prey on the weak for their sexual gratification.
But I am put in a mind of a kind of pattern here--I don't know if Tevin is gay, but if he is why is it that he figured it'd be safer (for his career, his life, etc.) to troll for sex from strangers and remain closeted than to just come out as a gay man and have normal relationships with other adult males though regular old dating? How would we (public, fans) have reacted to him then? Would we have supported him and his career? Has there ever been a Black, gay male who has had a successful career in R&B, hip hop, jazz, gospel as an out gay man?
Now, with MJ, I have made my views clear. I absolutely LOVE this man's talent (although I do feel Quincy Jones is not given enough credit for the success of his classic albums, but that's another story.) Like too many people in the entertainment industry, though, it appears that he put too much stock in the "adoration" of fans. By now anyone going into that business should know that any entertainer's time in the sun is going to be limited. I do not see people's "turning" on him being related to race, or some desire to hurt him personally. Elvis was probably the most beloved entertainer in White American history and look at how his public (besides a fan-atical core) turned on him in his later years.
Anyway, I've said all that I'm going to about folks' "support" of MJ now. Call me when you all get your personalized thank you card from MJ (and OJ, and Mike Tyson, and Kobe) in the mail. In the meeantime, like I said before, our prisons, foster care homes, homeless shelters, and crack houses are continuing to fill up with our sisters and brothers who have been victims of sexual abuse, rape, incest, and domestic violence. You want to feel sorry for and empathize with someone, consider thinking about them. |
Yvette Perry
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 74
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
|
ashera, I am not picking on you. I re-read what I posted above and I am sorry if the above post sounded that way. I try not to participate in the kind of combatative posting that typifies many on-line forums. I recognize the sincerity in what you write. Of course--You and anyone else has the right to empathize with Michael Jackson, or (quite rightly) judge him innocent until/unless proven guilty, etc. You obviously do not need me to "validate" that right for you.
Also: Hopefully the criminal justice process in this case will be fair and impartial--or at least as much as can be hoped.
BUT. As far as your statement: MJ even says that he did not sleep together with them in bed, but he let them sleep in his bed, while he slept in a sleeping bag... This is not what I recall him saying. I recall him admitting that he did, in fact, sleep in the same bed with some of these boys, and further saying he sees nothing wrong with that. In fact, I remember him saying something to the effect of "What can be more pure than sharing a bed with someone?"
My memory may be off, but that is my recollection.
As far as you or anyone else babysitting children and sharing a bed with them, I would strongly recommend against that. In your (I assume) hypothetical situation you say you'd be doing that "because [the children] like that." How would you know that? And even if you did know that the child wanted/initiated this contact, how would you know what is going on with that child that she or he is seeking/needing this kind of contact?
I remember a sexually abused 5 year-old girl that I used to work with. She was VERY manipulative and craved attention--including physical--because of the warped type of physical attention she had gotten up to that point. The (male) psychologist I was working for at the time was very aware of the potential for this child to see him as the type of man who had molested her in the past (just by his being a man) and acting towards him in the way that she had been forced to act towards previous men. That is why he brought me in (a female) to work with her.
The point is that there are various ways that children react following long-term abuse. And one of the main ones is in a very sexually advanced, almost flirtatious manner. This is NOT because the kids really "wanted it." I think it may be because their whole development as sexual beings is thrown severely off and they come to not recognize or even expect the kind of socially-accepted, appropriate touching between adults and children that most of us can likely easily identify.
If MJ really feels that this social norm is restrictive, or outdated, then he should use the system and advocate for a change in laws and perceptions...join the National Man-Boy Love Association or something. But this case really sounds off to me--If he were just a regular old Joe instead of Michael Jackson (who, again, I LOVE as an entertainer) then I wouldn't even hesitate to say so plainly and directly what Cynique did in her post above.
|
Yvette Perry
Veteran Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 75
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:11 pm: |
|
P.S., apologizing for name spelling: asherah |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 375
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:33 pm: |
|
Hi Yvette.
I wish you would post your BLOG address for us.
Very sadly...I have to agree with you about children's Heightened Sexuality following molestation.
Oprah Winfrey testified to it. Saying that after she was molested by a Cousin, she became overtly PROMISCUOUS and solicitous towards men. Ditto for ME----after my sister and I were molested together as 12 yr. olds (not penetrated, but fondled and ejaculated on repeatedly)...I became a kind of child-sized "flirtation" predator, while my sister became INTROVERTED, drab and "not-there" (formerly, she had been a happy, talkative, sweet girl). My sister became hateful of anything sexual....while I, as the more artist outgoing one, became sexualized in a flamboyant, SELF-HATING way........and TO THIS DAY....even after years of Psychological treatment.....I remain de-sensitized to overt sexuality (seeing sex as a source of punishment that I deserve for being female) and feel totally "alien" to the thinking patterns of other..."good, decent christian" women...when it comes to romance.
I have spoken often on these boards about my hatred for men during my 20's....and how I PREYED on them, using them for money and career gains. Seducing and bedding them for my own sexual wanderlust----but all the same----loathing them. Don't forget, at 17, I was a runaway living with a man after losing my virginity to a school tutor that year. From 17 to 28, I USED men and saw them as "the enemy" to be manipulated, milked and then ditched for the next one. I also learned that men FEAR a woman who laughs at their dicks, walking around naked in stilleto heels, demanding not to be touched--because the blood on her nails hasn't dried yet.
It's really quite tragic.
I was raped several times in my 20's and it wasn't until my children's father RESCUED ME....yes, saved me, by offering me LOVE and RESPECT and showing me that...IT WAS ACTUALLY POSSIBLE....for me to be LOVED.
People really don't understand that much of my FEMINISM started on the day that A BLACK MAN, Thomas, insisted that I was good enough to be loved and recognized as a fully developed human being. This is why I take up for him now that we are separated and going through confusion over his sexism. For although he is sexist, the LOVE he put inside me....transformed me and empowered me.
Because of him, I stopped seeking humiliation and degradation from men...and became the OWNER of my own sexuality----which is still Heightened out of the Stratosphere, intellectually and artistically---but at least now, I am no longer promiscuous (a self-hating behavior) and can now demand love---because Thomas pointed out to me that I am "VALUABLE" and DESERVE to be loved, not "cum" all over.
So you're very right about children's WARPED sexualities after being molested. In the black community, the levels of Child Molestation are STAGGERING to say the least....we not only have 70% of our kids with no father in the home---but many black men are now "chicken hawks" who swing in and out of the HOOD freely molesting and exploiting little children (both male and female) who desperately crave ANY KIND of affection and attention from any kind of black man---no matter what it is.
And this is why I was so ENRAGED when grown ups (many of them BLACK women) blamed the 14 yr. old girl that R. KELLY was fucking/molesting/Pee-ing on for her own molestation.
How can they not see that if a 14 yr. old child is capable of such lasivious sex....then she must have been TAUGHT and at a very young age that she was worthless and could only be redeemed through it??? How can they not see that a 35 year old man is ACCOUNTABLE for what he does with a 14 yr. old child???
I remain bitter with these ignorant people who go around acting as though R. KELLY was seduced by this 14 yr. old child......totally ignoring that he has a PROVEN TRACK RECORD of sleeping with one underaged CHILD after the next. And yet our community will NOT stand up for a Black Girl.
As Thulani Davis wrote----no one values little black girls. Each day, these children turn on the radio to hear that they and the mothers they come from are "bitches and Ho's"...and that unless they look like Beyonce or Halle Berry--they're not loveable.
It doesn't matter what Alice Walker or Oprah Winfrey says---because when you have NO FATHER---you grow up only caring about what 50 Cent and Jaime Foxx and R. Kelly and Denzel thinks.
And therein lies the whole root of the cancer that is killing our race---both in Africa and in the WEST. Little black girls, and especially dependent on skin tone, are FOR SPORT and are unprotected and are not cherished.
And that's the damn truth.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 381
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 12:56 pm: |
|
Hey Ashera,
I totally appreciate your opinion and I think you raise some interesting points that are so SUTTLE that most of us never even think that way.
I do believe that this particular family is LYING to extort money out of MJ. And I believe that the boy in question this time is OBVIOUSLY GAY and may even have fancied being in love with MJ.
But I still say that MJ set himself up to be destroyed and really should have stopped this mess YEARS AGO------especially now that he has his own kids to sleep with and play camp with.
A public figure cannot take such stupid risks.
After what happened to Zora Neal Hurston, do you really think that "I" would be left alone with somebody's doting child????
When my boys bring other children to this house to play----those kids are not allowed INSIDE my home or anywhere near my underground ovens, which are outdoors. They have to play out at the horse stables or the field. I bring my boys lunch and lemonaid for their friends---but that's it.
I don't deal with other people's children.
|
Yvette Perry
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 76
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 03:16 pm: |
|
Here it is, Kola: http://blog.lib.umn.edu/perry032/impossible/
Mostly this is my on-line research diary and so may not be so interesting if you're not into reading about graduate school. (May not be interesting to you even if you are!)
I have a recent post reflecting about blogging, race and identity that might be of interest, though. You can find it here: http://blog.lib.umn.edu/archives/perry032/impossible/in_the_blogosphere_n.html Also, in my category listing on the sidebar you can find my archives from some posts I wrote during Black History Month, and ones I wrote during Kwanzaa.
If you're interested in reading stuff from African AMerican bloggers who have been at this for a lot longer than I have, start here at the Black Bloggers Association: http://blacklogs.com/ |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 383
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 03:30 pm: |
|
Hi Yvette,
The 2nd link with JIM was interesting and entertaining. You're a good writer.
I'm always envious of people who've been to college or are in it, because I never went.
Amazingly, the vast CORE of my reading/fan base are young black college girls. I have NO CLUE as to why that is. At UCLA and the Univ. of Louisville, Kentucky I am "major"---for some reason. Our poster Nyibol plays basketball for her University and comes from Sudan and I used to have a supporter named Daniecia who got me voted Favorite Woman Writer by the Student Union at HOWARD UNIVERSITY a few years ago.
Thanks for sharing those.
|
My2Cents
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 04:50 pm: |
|
asherah,
Just because I don't trust you, don't mean you should inappropriately touch my child, right? I don't quite get the logic. Yes, if you don't trust someone around your children, then by all means, don't leave them in their care, but still that doesn't excuse that person abusing them or give them carte blanche to do with them what you want. Besides MJ could have easily said to that boy's parents, if you don't trust me around your child, then don't bring him around me. Just as he claims these folks were out to get money from him, then why would he continue to have them over at Neverland or even keep contact with them. The moment he had a suspicion, that should have been the end of any contact. Period.
Should you take any blame for this? Should I? Why should anyone else other than the persons involved take any blame? I will say again, there's enough blame to go around but "everyone" has to be held accountable for their own actions, and that includes MJ. No one held a gun to MJ's head and got him in this situation.
And, you don't think MJ has been manipulative either? That was the entire point of the interview with Jesse Jackson, this weekend, and then having the audacity to invoke the name of Mandela, King, etc. MJ has used the media as much as you think they have used him. This is a double-edged sword. You can cut but you can also get cut. It seems just as some think the media has all this power, yet I think some folks are star stuck and think these celebrities can do no wrong or don't have to answer for actions, no matter how bizarre or illegal.
I am more concerned about MJ learning from *his* own experiences (and mistakes) than anyone else. I know it's not proper to sleep in the bed with children, especially those who aren't related to me, and I knew this long ago. I didn't need all these allegations against MJ to teach me that.
Personally could care less about the majority. I can access a situation, form an opinion and make up my own mind. I for one am not blinded by all of MJ's gold records, shining socks and moon-walking. Like most, I have enjoyed his music, concerts, etc., but that don't have a thing do with what's he's on trial for now. The same held for Martha Stewart, I like her magazine, have seen her TV show, and brought a few items from her home collection at Kmart, but when she lied to the grand jury about that stock sale, none of that other stuff that I admired about her mattered because she was wrong. See, I am an equal opportunist. (smile)
And, finally you says: Michael is right when he says 'the bigger the celebrity, the bigger the target.'
Maybe but if you go around messing with other folks children, then you’ll basically hanging a bull eye’s on your back.
|
Nadine Holden
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 01:04 am: |
|
I feel that Michael Jackson is guilty.
He has a long history of pedophilia, he wears makeup and I have heard many stories by people who used to work for him about his sexual interest in young boys. I agree with Yvette that even if he wasn't having sex with these boys, he had no business sleeping in the bed with them.
|
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 08:15 am: |
|
Yvette, I believe that you mean everyth sincerely and good as well, but I just like to point out a few things:
"As far as you or anyone else babysitting children and sharing a bed with them, I would strongly recommend against that. In your (I assume) hypothetical situation you say you'd be doing that "because [the children] like that." How would you know that? And even if you did know that the child wanted/initiated this contact, how would you know what is going on with that child that she or he is seeking/needing this kind of contact? "
Here you are again putting a social norm on a type of situation based on fear due to a sort of professional deformity, though good-intentional , but not necessarily right and ideal.
You may think you can PREVENT possible pedophilia situations by setting up a social rule like that, but at the same time you heighten the risk of accusing innocent people of pedophilia, if they did not stick to YOUR (or societal/more in particular imposed by priests/psychiatrists for ex.) social rules.
Also, no matter how many of those social rules that are imposed onto people (which will not necessarily lead to a better world as it is predestined to collapse when it does not come from the purity of the heart, because any 'good intentions' not coming from the heart has it's basis in fear that can only lead to MANIPULATION), a pedophile will always find new ways to proceed with his crimes, which doesn't mean that pedophilia shouldn't be condemned or that clear signs for pedophiles should be held.
I can also assure you that I sense other people very well and I defenitely would see the difference between a child just wanting to sleep in the same bed with me, because it's cosy or because of being afraid of some nightstorm, the darkness or whatever and a child who has other (unconscious) intentions/desires due to trauma's ..
If it were the first case and I see no harm in it, i could as well refuse to do it, because I could sense that it would confuse and upset the parents, (in some cases it could also be that I feel it's ok with the parents and do it anyway)
So you might say that even if MJ is innocent,he is partly the cause of making other people feel disturbed and frightened about pedophilia unnecessary, because of not adapting to the social rules, but here the sword also cuts from two sides. If he is innocent, then other people are also the cause of disturbing his life unnecessarily and in a big way, BECAUSE of adapting to THEIR rules. So you see, the social norms aren't always the best and they always come at a cost for a minority.
And why would someone not adapt to every rule of society which would seem the best way of living to the majority?
Because those few feel that the social norm in some cases is nonsense and restrict them from living according to the IDEAL and most purest way that their heart evokes within them. When they conduct to the social norms, they feel that they will lose their purity and not be the beautiful soul as they want to be and feel they are becoming actually more ugly and less good when they do what society thinks is appropriate. (>this is the whole problem with the term 'adult' I'm trying to explain and why it is a form of cowardice)
If everybody just sticks to the LAWS OF NATURE which you can understand through intuitive logic, instead of every social or religious norm that is often based on fear, then every problem is erased.
Of course this is an ideal, but I believe that those who don't care about the minority of good-willed people that stick to their ideals, but despite have become the victim of society, will get their karma back and come to realize that NATURE(=GOD/ESS)'s laws are the only rules that are universal and dominant over the ever changing, temporary social norms.
I don't want to impose you my vision, but I explain it to show you why I wouldn't necessarily adapt to every social rule and why MAYBE MJ wouldn't either. |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2183
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 08:26 am: |
|
All,
Thinking MJ has pedophilic tendencies and proving in a court of law that he’s molested the person in question are two separate things.
asherah,
HAHA!
Your response to my prior post about you sort of validate my thoughts about you.
HAHA! |
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 08:34 am: |
|
My2cents said: "Sometimes when there is smoke there is fire"
Yes, and what if it were not? I believe, because you are aware of this and do not want to hold yourself responsible for the possible false allegations and damage you(and others like Kola) could have made to a possible innocent person, you preventively put yourself out of shot, shoving all the responsibility off yourself and passing it on to Michael, by saying that HE is the DUMBASS and hold him fully responsible for the shit he's in, as you don't want to be the dumbass yourself ofcourse.
I'm just showing you another point of view that might very well be Michael's truth, which shouldn't be less valuable than anybody else's truth.
"Yes, if you don't trust someone around your children, then by all means, don't leave them in their care, but still that doesn't excuse that person abusing them or give them carte blanche to do with them what you want."
Of course not, I didn't say that either. But now you're assuming again that he CERTAINLY did molest them.
You don't get my logic, because we are on total different wavelengths. I can't get through to you, because you see in everything I say something suspicious and wrong, because of a cloud of fear hanging in front of your eyes, which I can't blame you for, because I can react similarly in other situations, but I also know it's not ideal and I feel in this case I need to defend Michael's basic rights, because I see a lot of injustice projected onto him. |
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 08:50 am: |
|
And I certainly do not underestimate the consequences of the situations about abused children that you described, Yvette.
As I believe that being sexually abused as a child(especially by the parents or anyone else that the child looks up to) is one of the most SEVERE trauma's to overcome.
But also, loading society up with fears and threaths about pedophilia, eventhough i totally agree, that pedophilia should be strongly condemned, will not be the solution to cure society from it. People can become obsessed and paranoid with it, and it also leads to more of those little social rules which also makes more innocent people the victim of it.
Also I feel that these molested children need help from people who are able to really HEAL.
I haven't been molested as a child, though i have been in a pastlife(not sexually) and have been traumatised because of other stuff in this life and therefore seen psychiatrists and psychologists whom were not able to help me and frustrated me all the more. A lot of psych. have studied a lot, and may have seen a lot of similar 'cases' though have not experienced themselves what they are trying to cure and therefore aren't really able to truly help these children.
I'm not always into the 'logic' of psychiatrists and think they can often be on the total wrong track with their rational reasoning which they better should replace by EMPATHY if they are capable of that at least (not that I mean that ALL psych. are the same)
Here is a good example of the typical nonsense reasoning of a psychiatrist who was debating with the famed pediatrician Robert Mendelsohn about the 'family bed':
the psychiatrist said, "It's a terrible idea, I'd never sleep with my children. It fosters dependency, it confuses them sexually, it's just plain wrong." The moderator asked Dr. Mendelsohn to respond.
"I agree,” Dr. Mendelsohn said. "Psychiatrists should not sleep with their children. But for everyone else, it's just wonderful. It gives infants the warmth and security they seek. It enhances emotional health and it brings the family closer. When a baby’s dependency needs are satisfied, they will be more independent and secure adolescents and adults."
|
Yvette Perry
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 77
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 08:54 am: |
|
I do not know what else to say. I will ask this: Has MJ admitted to/been accused of "sleeping in the same bed" with any female children? If no, why not if he just has this pure heart to want to comfort children?
And my comments about babysitting were meant to suggest how adults might protect themselves against false allegations, not to suggest ways to prevent pedophilia.
IF MJ is purposefully going against the grain in order to stay true to his higher calling, then that is his choice: he will just have to suffer whatever consequences of doing so in the context of our current social norms.
In this case, too bad he has felt the need to enlist these children in his choice.
clear signs for pedophiles should be held: I don't know how clearer the signs would have to be in this case.
ABM: Thinking MJ has pedophilic tendencies and proving in a court of law that he’s molested the person in question are two separate things. You are right about that. I wonder whether this kind of "armchair legal analysis" like we're doing ultimately does any good?
Kola: I keep forgetting about R. Kelly. (Maybe purposefully!) And thanks for the compliments about the blog. As far as college, the doors are always open. My mother (60+ years old) recently returned to school and is having the time of her life. |
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 08:55 am: |
|
So does your response ABM!
You totally confirm my idea about you being an unsensitive, egocentric pig which you don't need to come and confirm all the time here! |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 406
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:22 am: |
|
ASHERA said:
I'm just showing you another point of view that might very well be Michael's truth, which shouldn't be less valuable than anybody else's truth.
KOLA SAYS:
Good point, and because of the pain in my own life from trying to be HEARD and UNDERSTOOD....I think this is a valid concern Ashera raises.
YVETTE SAYS:
Has MJ admitted to/been accused of "sleeping in the same bed" with any female children? If no, why not if he just has this pure heart to want to comfort children?
KOLA SAYS:
WOW.
You really hit that on the head, and I SOOOOOO agree with you.
Why does Michael have so much love and compassion for young Non-Black Boys and none for girl children? That is VERY, VERY ODD.
It's like these White Feminist women who come to SUDAN looking to do magazine stories about "The Lost BOYS of Sudan"-----but totally ignore the LOST GIRLS of Sudan. I never understood the concept of "saving a man", but deliberately not saving the WOMB from which he comes. Which is VERY TELLING in my opinion.
|
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
|
YVETTE SAYS:
Has MJ admitted to/been accused of "sleeping in the same bed" with any female children? If no, why not if he just has this pure heart to want to comfort children?
ASHERAH: I don't know Yvette,(and I don't know if he did or not sleep with girls) but maybe because he never (wanted to)grew older than the young boy he was, or is in search for that lost boy(because he was never allowed to be a child) and therefore identifies with boys of that age, to be that boy again that he could not be and maybe also uncounsciously wants to heal his inner child by nurturing those boys whom his inner child identifies with.
Also, if he tempt to choose more lighter-skinned boys than he was himself, might be because he wanted to look like that, because of not loving his blackness (which is due to his upbringing).
If this is not the case, well than you could be right he chooses those boys and boys only because of sexual preferences.
But, we don't know for sure and because I still tend to feel that MJ did not molest children, I pick up explanations like the first one here above or maybe I picked that up because it is the truth, I don't know.
I did not want to interfere in this case in the first place, because of not being 100% sure of anything, but still I guess this is what my intuition always leads too(but still not sure) and then I want to defend MJ's case because others make allegations based on suspicions and not evidence either from which I feel that it's not right either when possible opposite explanations from another side of the case are in proportion far less defended, when nobody knows for sure what the truth exactly is. So when we do go speculating, it's better to avoid that one of the sides is overtly accused. Therefore, I'm playing MJ's lawyer when others are pleeding against him, to keep it balanced. And I don't mean this as a game of who will win the case here, but out of sincerety.
"clear signs for pedophiles should be held: I don't know how clearer the signs would have to be in this case." I still don't think that sleeping together in the bed with kids of friends should be seen as a sign of pedophilia and made to a social rule by picking up on it everytime. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 407
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:03 pm: |
|
Aherah, forgive me...I keep leaving the "H" off your name, because when I write it---I'm sounding it rather than seeing it.
ASHERAH
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 420
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 08:54 pm: |
|
MICHAEL JACKSON: A Virgin until 32, Hated his "n****r" Hair
_______________
From ANTONELLA LAZZERI
in Santa Maria
TAPES of phone calls during which Michael Jackson revealed he was a virgin at 32 and lusted after women are set to be unveiled today.
He also said he hates his hair — which he calls “n****r” hair — and he talks about a battle with anorexia.
The sensational tapes were made by the family of a nine-year-old boy from Utah — whom the star befriended in 1985.
PR agent David Hans Schmidt, who now has the tapes, said: “There is some dynamite stuff on these tapes. They will demonstrate that Jackson is, or was, heterosexual.”
PR agent David Hans Schmidt, who now has the tapes, said: “There is some dynamite stuff on these tapes. They will demonstrate that Jackson is, or was, heterosexual.”
Jackson’s defence was dealt a blow yesterday when his child sex abuse trial in Santa Maria was told that his accuser’s mum rejected an offer from a mystery millionaire to buy her anything she wanted.
The evidence by comedy charity boss Jamie Masada, who introduced Jackson to his accuser, counters the defence claim the boy's mother was trying to fleece the star.
Masada said “a particular person” was so moved after watching the boy, a cancer sufferer, - now 15 - on a TV documentary that he offered cash help and a free house.
He said the boy's mother rejected the offer and only asked for “friendship and prayers”.
Masada — who ran a comedy club and took stars to meet sick children — said he arranged for the boy to meet Jacko after he said he was his favourite star.
Meanwhile, the newly-permitted testimony of Jackson’s previous accuser, Jordy Chandler, reveals patterns in how the star “groomed” his alleged victims.
Jordy’s 1993 claims seem to tally with the testimony of Jackson's accuser during the current trial.
His signed and sealed statement, leaked on to the internet, reveals similarities in the way Jackson befriended the boys.
PHONE CALLS: The singer rang the star-struck boys direct and talked to them for hours.
SEDUCTION: Jackson appears to move first to gain the trust of the boys’ mothers and selects families with problems.
Jordy’s mum June had a rocky relationship with her new husband Dave, while the mother of Jackson's current accuser claims her husband beat her.
GIFTS: He let the cancer sufferer's mother use his credit card for shopping sprees and gave June expensive jewellery and other presents. He also showered the boys with toys.
NEVERLAND: Both boys were invited to Jackson’s ranch, first
with their parents, then alone.
ABUSE: Both used virtually identical language to describe alleged molestation.
SECRET: Both say Jackson told them to keep the relationships quiet.
CONFESSIONS: Both told a psychiatrist Jackson abused them — but still said they loved him.
LOOKS: Both boys are good looking with dark hair and olive skin.
Jackson, 46, denies all ten charges, which include child molestation.
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2188
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 09:46 pm: |
|
asherah,
I think if you slow-your-roll a bit, you might discover that I am almost in complete agreement with you on the Michael Jackson issue. As I said before, I've yet to see ANYTHING evidencing Jackson has molested the boy in question. But I also understand that ours might be a minority opinion. That's why said you "remind me of a nut" in a "good way". Because, at least on this issue, you remind me of myself.
I hope that doesn't offend you...too much. |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2189
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:08 pm: |
|
Kola,
The things you say about Michael Jackson ENRAGE me to no end. Not that I disagree with ANY of it. Because, in truth, no rational person could. But, well...it's Michael Jackson you're ranting about.
I mean, this is Michael Motherfucking Jackson you're insulting.
And that shit fucking pisses me off!
You had to have been here.
See. Unlike you, I was around in the late 60's and early 70's when the Jackson 5 hit the scene. And, I'm telling, baby...it was like a dream!
Here you had a brothah who could sing with the beauty of a Stevie Wonder and a maturity of Ray Charles, could dance like James Brown and was ever bit at charismatic as Jackie Wilson or Marvin Gaye.
And he was 12 FUCKING years old!
I mean, Mike and his brothahs were SO BAD, white guys basically created the Osmond Brothers just to eat some of their cheddah. Donny Osmond proudly ADMIT to that.
Fuck THRILLER or BAD or any of that other schmaltzy dreck that followed. The pre-teen Michael Jackson was supernatural!
Yeah. Mike's self-perception is TOTALLY jacked up. But, man, growing up during the Jackson 5 era, Michael made me feel IMMINENTLY proud to be a young Black person. Because he in MANY ways was a sterling example of our beauty, our artistry...our potential.
So I admit to having an irrational feeling about him and what's going on with him. Part of me wants him to exonerated and left alone to figure out how to try to begin to live as a normal human being...assuming at this stage of his life that that is even remotely possible. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 422
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
|
Michael Jackson hates his "nigger" hair.
That means he hates MY nigger hair.
And my SON'S nigger hair.
And the NIGGER HAIR of 850 million African people that I deeply love.
And the nigger hair of ALLLL the ANCESTORS who caused him to have "nigger hair".
You think DONNY OSMOND or GEORGE BUSH calling my hair "nigger hair" is any worse than some Clip-nosed White Bitch from Gary, Indiana with a brown spotted dick?
Do you EVER, ABM...think about all the children in Africa who ingest "The Michael Jackson Skin Lightening Pill" each and every day---because you think he's SYMBOLIC of nostalgia?
Is there a single BLACK AMERICAN who genuinely gives even one OUNCE about Black People enough to be insulted and outraged that the whole lot of us is being PISSED ON by some tragic self-hating Cracka-Bitch who ONLY CARES ABOUT HIS OWN NARROW ASS AND NOBODY ELSE?
The TRUTH IS.....most so called "black people" in THIS COUNTRY have deep seated Like-Minded Hatred for AFRICANS, for our Blackness and their blackness and therefore....they don't really care about what this man is actually saying and how he is actually being LOVED for HATING us. It goes right over their heads.
Fuck that son of a self-hating nigga bitch!
Fuck HIM!
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 423
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:22 pm: |
|
I hope that IVORY bastard ROTS in prison!
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2192
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
|
Kola,
Babe. I gottah go here witcha.
How the hell are you going to make Michael Jackson...ONE FRAIL HUMAN being...responsible for BACKWARDASS AFRICA?
HOW?
If over half a MILLENIA, Black foks have been serving up ASS to White foks, how the hell you expect Michael Jackson to do anything different?
You, Africa, African Americans, West Indians, Austrialian Aborigines, etc. have got to WAKE THE FUCK up an stop blaming EVERYBODY for our troubles.
I'm tired of this race/color bullshit!
Ain't a motherfucker been born - White, Black, Blue, Gray or Green - who's better than I am. And FEW of them are my equal. I'd kill and drink the warm blood of some White (or other) son-of-a-bitch who'd try to assert otherwise.
Michael Jackson can turn into a GOTDAYAM turnip for all I care. That don't mean shit to me!
And if the entire continent of Africa is so DAYAM stupid that it can't see that this man has been mentally disturbed for 20 years, then maybe yawl deserve to bleach yourselves into oblivion! |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 425
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:38 pm: |
|
Here's Jermaine Jackson....and HIS son.
No "nigger hair" on this 100% LATINO looking child.
ABM--you shouldn't have gotten me started.
____________
I think out of the ENTIRE Jackson family and 20 grandchildren they've got what......TWO....black grandchildren?
But this is CUTE, because they're so TALENTED and Exciting----and I'm sure that a nice white girl like ASHERAH doesn't see any reason that a nice "nigger-haired" black lady like me should just ABSOLUTELY ADORE these "progressive, futuristic, sensitive" Jacksons.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 426
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:47 pm: |
|
Well, you know what ABM.
We may be dumb, uneducated, stupid "nigger haired" Africans whose only Model of Success to LOOK UP TO is the media images created by YOUR selfish, backwards, white supremacist asses.
But DISEASE is DISEASE...now matter how many excuses you make....and our people are dying from NIGGER-BRAIN disease worldwide.
And if you don't give a shit, what can I do.
BUT I DO GIVE A SHIT....and 100 years from now, they will not claim that Kola Boof was sitting on the plantation not even KNOWING she was a slave with the masses of the people...LIKE YOU...who don't care and don't know noth'n and can't see any reason why you should do anything.
OH...and R. Kelly's a GENIUS and yet another role model that we should DEIFY.
I love my "nigger hair" and every dot of MELANIN that it takes to create it and whatever SUPPORT I've been trying to give Michael Jackson for the last few weeks.....is OVER WITH.
I hope he rots.
I'm tired of my children being insulted.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 427
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:49 pm: |
|
I'm tired of MY WHOLE BEING....being insulted by this twisted white puppet.
I am a HUMAN BEING. Shit!
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2194
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
|
Kola,
Obviously they have some MAJOR self-image issues. And I would NOT advise anyone to pattern themselves after them...at least concerning non-music issues.
And I NEVER once thought about what "Jemaine Jackson" thought about whom I should marry. Actually, I've rarely thought much about him at all. |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2195
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:56 pm: |
|
Kola,
You know when things will get better for Blacks:
@ When a African woman cures AIDS
@ When a Black man invents and mass produces an efficient non-patroleum based automobile
@ When a West Indian wins the Noble Peace Prize for completely obiterating Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity
@ When the percentage of NBA team Black OWNERSHIP matches that of its players.
See where I'm headed? |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2196
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
|
and...@ When a Michael Jackson - a crazy @$$ singer - is NOT expected to save ALL the Black foks on earth...for CHRIST SAKE! |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2197
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
|
Oh...in case there's any confusion...I still LOVE Micheal Jackson! |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 428
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:02 pm: |
|
AND YOU......Mr. ABM......are not trying to self-destruct and neither is every single African person.
But we do have MILLIONS of children like Lil Kim and others who INTERNALIZE these images and become OBSESSED with "acceptance" and "conformity"-----they just want to be loved, and Michael Jackson was like that---HE JUST WANTED THE WHOLE WORLD TO LOVE HIM.
Millions of Black Kids have this internalized self-hated.
They are the ones who buy the skin lightening pills, they are the ones who tease my sons at school for being "black" and having "nigger hair"-----not GOOD HAIR like Michael Jackson's wig---they are the ones who only want to date WHITE or "light" UNTIL they can snag a white---they are the ones who don't eat fried chicken "In Public" and are embarrassed by Redd Foxx. They are the ones who PERM their pubic hair.
WE PARENTS ARE THE ONES...supporting, condoning and INFECTING our communities and our children with this disease of self-annihlation by not condemning it and not creating ALTERNATIVE images for our children.
The JACKSON FAMILY is "REPRESENTATIVE" of the fantasy and dream of MILLIONS of black people who WISH they could be "whiter"-----because Whiteness is ACCEPTED.
In the Black Community...the closer you are to WHITE, the more accepted and loved and better treated you are.
THIS IS ALL CONNECTED and MICHAEL JACKSON is a SYMBOL of something so big and so evil that I cannot CONDONE and MAKE EXCUSES FOR IT.
I love my kids. They're black....LIKE ME.
I love Africa. It's a black paradise like God intended---until the devil arrived.
Michael Jackson....to me....is the KKK Grand Wizard.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 429
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
|
And I don't LOVE nobody that don't love me.
But more than likely, ABM....Michael Jackson is a SYMBOL of something that's in you, too. So you see nothing wrong with it.
Hell.
There's nothing wrong with Drug dealers and T.V. Video PIMPS either...long as they got talent and real cool.
It's ALL GOOD.
None of us are.....RESPONSIBLE.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 430
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:12 pm: |
|
But I take one thing back, ABM
I really don't want to see him go to prison.
And looking at this picture.....I do feel compassion for him. He is truly a VICTIM.
The only problem is....he (and other blacks like him) are willing to destroy me and my kids...in order to get that White love and validation.
It's GRAVELY serious to me....when I look at this picture.
ABM,
I LOVE MICHAEL JACKSON, too.
My heart is very heavy with sadness for what has happened to him.
This picture breaks my heart and makes me realize.....that I DO love him.
But as Audre Lord said: "Our silence will not save us."
We need to SPEAK UP....and LOUDLY....and QUICKLY......to save MILLIONS of other children who "Hate" their "nigger" hair.
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2198
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:13 pm: |
|
Kola. My wife distributes holistic beauty products. She's accredited to perform beauty/esthetics services throughout the US, Europe, Asia and Africa.
So I am PROFOUNDLY familiar with the hair/skin issues you cite.
But the biggest offenders of the issues you cite are venal African's themselves!
My wife has over the years been HOUNDED by African distributors to export skin bleaches/lighteners to Liberia, the Congo, Sierre Leone, etc. She has on principle staunchly refused to in spite of some very LUCRATIVE offers to the contrary...again...from AFRICANS.
So, I say again...YOU foks need to begin to clean-house for your DAYAM selves if you're to ever expect other foks to take you seriously.
And we won't have to worry about lil' Kim much longer. Because her stupid ass will doing time for lying to the Feds soon enough.
"~One less...one less...[bitch] we've got to worry about.~" (NWA) |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2199
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:21 pm: |
|
Kola,
Yeah. I suppose to some degree, I'd LIKE to see some of Michael Jackson within myself. He's been an remarkably talented, skilled, stout and even savvy professional entertainer and business person
I mean, this dude slicked a major part of the Beatles' catalog right from under the nose of one of it's prime author's Paul McCarthy. Say whatchu will. But for a time, dude sure weren't no punk!
There are MANY thing about his career that one would be well-served by researching and, to some degree, imitating. So although you may consider it an insult, I would consider it profoundly flattering to in part be compared to Michael Jackson. |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2200
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 11:25 pm: |
|
I'm sorry. I've been listening to Rossini's William Tell Overture. And I can't help but get juiced whenever I hear the theme music from "The Lone Ranger".
"Hi Ho Silver!...and AWAY!" |
Yvette Perry
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 78
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 08:10 am: |
|
Well, I totally lost the thread of this thread, but a couple points:
(1) You had to have been here.
I was there. The Jackson 5 was my first concert ever. I think I mentioned upthread that my first 45 was a Jackson 5 song cut from the back of a Super Suger Crisp cereal box. Later I bought the vinyl 45s and lps. I watched the Jackson 5 cartoon religiously...
I was there.
It is sad that some of us who love MJ and what he meant to us, the entertainment industry, and African American culture are willing now to give him a "pass" for what he may (stress: may because legally he is innocent unless proven otherwise) have done to children.
We are no better than Whites (and others) who apologize for slaveholding founding fathers or wife beating artists or marry-your-defacto-step-daughter film directors. The message being that if you are wealthy enough, or famous enough, or talented enough, or have provided us with enough entertainment, or have done enough good in the world--then it's OK to do some bad...it all washes out in the end.
Here you had a brothah who could sing with the beauty of a Stevie Wonder and a maturity of Ray Charles, could dance like James Brown and was ever bit at charismatic as Jackie Wilson or Marvin Gaye. And he was 12 FUCKING years old!
Yes, that about says it all. He was a child. A child. Whatever other maturity we may have perceived, whatever pleasure we might have obtained from him, he was a child. He was exploited and we participated in that exploitation. Yes, he also becaome wealthy through that exploitation. But had he been abducted and killed as a beautiful, talented child star instead of growing up to be the adult he is now we would be able to clearly see how his "career" was probably not the best thing for him.
I am not saying only precocious talented children are exploited, abused, abducted, killed. But our willingness to turn children into tools for our money-making and entertainment shows how little we really value children--despite all our talk about them being our "future" and "most important natural resource."
I can imagine the reaction I'll get to this, so I'll just shut up now. I guess I will just add a 3rd point before I do. As far as: exonerated and left alone to figure out how to try to begin to live as a normal human being...assuming at this stage of his life that that is even remotely possible, I would not assume that is possible. Whatever problems MJ has, "being left alone" to reflect on them is not going to solve it. What he's got runs deep. And I guarantee you that if one of those problems is pedophilia, such folks generally do NOT seek out help on their own and they are NOT able to change their behavior without help.
So, barring death or severe impairment of the offender, it will happen again.
"Don't stop till you get enough..." |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2214
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 08:46 am: |
|
Yvette,
Do you remember the Jackson 5 cartoon? Do you remember their colorful clothing?
They were all such a beautiful family.
Do you remember their variety show? Remember Janet's and Randy's Mae West and WC Fields imitation? Janet could have made the racy original herself blush.
And remember the superb dancing/singing? Man! Hey. If there had been an American Idol back then, a 12 year old Michael Jackson would have won it in such convincing fashion they would have had to have cancelled the show because no one else who came along would have appeared a credible entertainer.
Yeah. I have VERY nostalgic feelings about Michael Jackson (and the Jacksons as a whole I suppose). So I'm glad that I've not been asked to be his judge/juror, because in truth I'd probably have to recuse myself as I'd likely sway decidedly on the side of acquitting him.
STILL...
Where's the PROOF that he molested this boy?
Whether he is or isn't a pedophile is not really the issue. (Just because someone has committed A murder does not mean he's commited EVERY murder.)
The issue is whether he molested this particular boy.
And all I seen and heard thus far is unproven rumor, innuendo and hearsay being generated by people of dubious backgrounds/behavior who have a vested interest in proving his guilt.
I don't know if you recall. But this criminal trial was precipated by the accusers initial attempt to sue Michael. It was the California State law/prosecutors who elected to charge MJ with a crime. I surmise were it entirely by the leave of his accuser and his family, Michael would NOT be on trial. Thus far, that's really only HINDERED, not aided, their primary objective.
So, again, is this about crime...or cash? |
Jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:59 am: |
|
C'mon everybody take off the rose colored glasses and sell'em at the swap meet. Michael Jackson is guilty ! Out of 8 children(referring to the Jacksons) Somebody's going to be gay...that's just genetics. That's Michael. He didn't even father any of his children the old fashion way...ARTIFICIAL INSEMINATION !(red flag red flag alert) He don't want no woman, and he doesn't want a BLACK woman either. If I wasn't guilty on something I'm sure not paying some 20 million dollars or whatever it was to make the case go away. Hell no Fuck that.And now the judge is allowing other allegations to be heard by the jury. Something freaky deaky is going on at the Nevah Nevah land and it ain't between a man and a woman.
ABM-the African stores that I shop at here in California, Ghanian and Nigeria sell those skin bleaching tubes too ! Hundreds of them . One time I asked the owner why was he stocking the product. He said "this is what the women want" |
Lily
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 12:22 pm: |
|
But "WHY" do the women want bleaching creams, Jackie?
What makes them want to bleach their skin?
I hate to step into Kola's formidable shoes, but seems to me she makes a valid argument that more than a few of us would like to ignore. Where are African people in California getting these ideas about going blonde and lightening their skin and why do you and ABM seem to be happy about it?
Ditto me Jackie about MJ's guilt. I'm with ya, girlfriend. Sorry Kola, Asherah and ABM, but you guys is wrong. LOL. MJ may not have molested this current accuser, but I believe that he has molested some of these boys, somewhere down the line. Most child molestors are straight men who molest boys. Yvette Perry should have studies about that fact.
|
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 01:10 pm: |
|
ABM, if you would have explained me what you really meant by calling me a 'nut' in the first place, you wouldn't have me responding to you like that either.
so, sorry.
Kola, does this MJ lightening pill really exist in Africa? That's crazy. I'd think the manufacturers of this pill are more responsible of promoting MJ's whiteness than Michael himself, as in the rest of the world, I don't think there's anybody that believes MJ really looks good with it.
I find the more subtle images of mainly bi-racial women representing 'black' women a far more dangerous and upsetting trend for fullblack women than Michael's skin is for Black's in general.
As everybody talks about his looks in a negative way, I don't think there's much to feel threatened about it.
Besides, I believe that MJ wouldn't even recommend another black person to bleach his/her skin. As he seems to ventilate his frustrations and anger onto himself instead of projecting it onto other people(like you're doing now). It's not a good example either,to be so self-destructive, but why should he be held responsible for all those Black people who refuse to think for themselves?
Because if THEY would, you wouldn't feel so threatened about him either and stopped hating him.
Again, because he has a name and a face, he get's all the blame.
I understand your frustration about this all, Kola, but in reality everybody is as responsible as anybody else, only not everyone wants to carry the same responsibility.
Maybe we should start exploring Joe Jackson's mind for a change, instead of his famous son all the time.
|
Nyibol
Newbie Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 25
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 02:36 pm: |
|
Asherah,
I'm with you on that one too. I don't think MJ is responsible for all the people bleaching their skin color because there's more than MJ product worldwide for bleaching the skin. They're as cheap as a dollar so they're very affordable. MJ with his money, just had the ability to go beyond skin color changes, as you can see with the surgery on his nose.
These people should understand by now the consequences in skin color changing. It is not pretty as we have seen MJ's experience from it.
MJ's afro was cute, but I guess he wanted it straightenned and more easy to handle since the combing probably gave him great pain.
After he had it straight, he looked half black, half white, having his hair straight and his skin brown. So he decided, "ok, I like the hair, but the skin doesn't go with it. I must keep my hair and when I'm white, I would look more sexy and equal."
We Africans must stick to our own, what God made us to be, black. The afro matched his skin color perfectly. It would have been nice if he had it braided instead of straightenned like any other black males. But I guess he thought, "I would look like a black female! and the black males would make fun of me! I'd rather just go white!". And he turned white.
I wish people loved and accepted what God made them to be you know. I'm black as the night and I love myself and my skin. I couldn't dare try to be light. Some people hate it and some love it. I get compliments all the time that I have the most beautiful skin. My skin is as soft as a baby's and I love it. I couldn't dare try to scrape that beauty off. Anyone out there who hates this blackness can hate it all they want, but I'd rather walk alone loving who I am than become the hypocrite MJ made himself to be. As we all know, it is impossible to be accepted by another before we can accept ourselves.
You're right, skin bleaching has always been there and it's not MJ's fault many out there are doing it. He should be telling them not to do it, but he's silent about it as you can see. It would really put a smile to my face if that happens, but I'm only dreaming:P
His move from black to white was a mistake cause that's just saying that white people are better and more beautiful than black people. It would have only been fair if he went green or purple instead; and I'm saying this for people who think people should be who they want to become. I'm sure an African child doesn't have the money to afford this so their parents buy it; although, it's less than a dollar in Africa. And they sell it in the American dollar stores and wal-mart. MJ can be whom they look up to as a singer, but really no one should have to want to look like him because he is not a good role model for loving oneself. |
Nyibol
Regular Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 26
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 02:45 pm: |
|
No one should ever have to look like him, not even white people! |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 02:53 pm: |
|
Why do women want bleaching creams? To lighten their skin, just as black women were taught in the thirties & forties to use Nadinola, Palmers, black & white etc bleaching creams & was assured that a clothes pin on the nose, over time, would make it less broad. Ask your grandmother, she knows. |
Jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 02:59 pm: |
|
Yvette,
The "WHY" has been answered all over this freakin board. I was just pointing out the fact that it's not hear say. I've seen the tubes for myself. And what makes you think I was happy about it ? African women have issues too. Dammit we're all fucked up in the head...
|
Jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 03:01 pm: |
|
oops I meant Lily not Yvette |
Nyibol
Regular Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 27
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 03:21 pm: |
|
Lily, black people in California want to bleach their skin color because they think blackness is ugly and that white people are more beautiful with their straightenned blond hair, and blue, green or hazel eyes, and pointed noses, all together. |
Nyibol
Regular Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 28
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 03:31 pm: |
|
I think MJ is gay too from Jackie's opinion. And like Kola wrote, the guy lost his virginity at 32. Considering his popularity he should have had a line of women wanting to marry him.
I am Christian and I believe in virginity until marriage, and I'm hoping these were his reasons. But if not, then I have to say too that he's probably gay. But he's gona have to confess that himself.
And Jackie, you should have told that black Ghanianm male in the store to go screw himself for selling those skin lightenning products. |
Lily
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 04:11 pm: |
|
Where is KOLA?
Let me make my point Jackie, Asherah and Nyibol. It took me one hour to compose these thoughts, so yall better read it! LOL
When I was teen around 12, 13, 14, 15 my idol was Mary J. Blige. I loved her and looked up to her as a kind of role model. Unfortunately, when I turned 16, I started to dye my hair blonde like Mary J. Blige. I even made my mother buy me a pair of blue contact lenses that I rocked just like my idol Mary. Around the same time, I was liking Prince and Michael Jackson and one thing I liked about them was their light color. To me, because I was brown and regular brown girls wasn't in, they seemed special. I'm not blaming them. But I am pointing out the valid points that Kola makes.
I did go blonde because of Mary J. Blige. I did notice that all the brothers at school was into lighter skin and white girls. If you were brown with natural hair, you got zero attention. If I had known about a skin lightening pill or fade cream, I probably would have taken it back then, because when you are young and you want to be popular and to be liked, you will do crazy things.
Jackie--I am almost done with Kola's novel "Flesh and the Devil" right now. This is a really unique black love story, but I noticed that in several parts of the book, she shows African women bleaching their skin and telling their children to marry white to have lighter babies. I don't think her attack of Michael Jackson is letting the Africans off the hook. What she is saying is that black people in the media, like Michael Jackson, produce harmful images that other black people copy and imitate. Millions of children do look up to him, just look at ABM's posts. Even adults look up to this man.
I agree with Kola when she points out that everything about Michael Jackson is in praise of white people, white society and white beauty standards. His kids, his wives, his flesh and his hair is totally white.
Kola Boof has two young sons. She would like for her sons to have black men as role models that she can trust so that her sons will not turn out like this.
What do we have yall? 50 Cent, Michael Jackson, Tiger Woods. Are there even five black men in the media that we can count who love black looking sisters and promote blackness as natural and normal? Seriously, I see where Kola is coming from.
Kola wrote:
The only problem is....he (and other blacks like him) are willing to destroy me and my kids...in order to get that White love and validation.
It's GRAVELY serious to me....when I look at this picture.
I'm tired of my children being insulted.
I know damn well Kola Boof preaches non stop on this topic. But I agree with her about Michael Jackson. I think that our support of him and people like him is a huge part of the problem.
Jackie and ABM says that Africans do it too.
I say so what. We're not in Africa, Kola is not in Africa and most people in Africa have no power of the media and really are trying to be cool and beautiful like the African-Americans they see on t.v. and in magazines. Black men in America have made the White Woman into a Prize, so now the African men want one which causes the African women to have to bleach their skin. The truth hurts, but that's the truth.
O.K. yall. Peace. I'm done. I love you. I'm not coming back to take up for Kola no more. I said my peace.
One love.
|
Jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 05:48 pm: |
|
that's why I say we're all fucked up in tha head. |
Lily
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 06:42 pm: |
|
LOL Jackie!!
You got that right.
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2217
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 09:50 pm: |
|
asherah,
Had you given me a little time RATHER than instantaneously assuming the worse, perhaps we could have saved each other the detriment of any misunderstanding.
And I DID say I meant that “in a good way”.
I’m MOSTLY harmless. I play. And expect the same. “Have fun!” is my motto here, as in most thing I say/do.
And I seldom insult anyone (well, at least I seldom intend to). In fact, I’m MUCH more inclined to flatter than disparage.
Jackie,
I’m repeating myself. But none of what you say proves Mike molested that boy. It may mean one should NOT leave their children with him. But it does NOT prove he committed a crime.
Still. You are, of course, entitled to believe otherwise.
Nyibol,
No offense. But I struggle to divine whether/how Mike’s relative religiosity applies here. Because I guess there are on earth some +30 virgin Christian Black men. But I’ve never in all my years known a single one.
Lily,
If “White women” are “the prize”, they were made into such LONG before we had anything to say about it.
My being a fan of Michael Jackson does NOT mean I’ll excuse his crimes or bleach my skin (any more than my being a fan of Michael Jordan will inspire me to shave my head).
The problem with what you/Kola appear to assert is it implies that people – especially BLACK people - can NOT think/act on their own behalf when it comes to witnessing the rich/famous. And I think that THAT kind of thinking is at least as dangerous as ANYTHING a Michael Jackson says/does.
Because anyone who looks to MJ, Tiger, Fitty, etc. for all of who/what they should be was destined to get f@#$ed over to begin with. |
Nyibol
Regular Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 29
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 09:50 pm: |
|
LOL Lily:P Way to go girl, way to see where Kola is coming from. I'm glad you didn't know about these products when you was 16 girl. Stand up for yo color, it's beautiful:D I'm the darkest chocolate can ever be and I love it. LOl, my friends around me get crazy when they get in the sun like, "I'm gona get dark like Nyibol" But just joking around, they never mean for it to sound effective or anything, lol; at least not violent like it use to be in middle and high school.I still praise my skin color and let em know that being dark is just as beautiful as being light. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 435
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:08 pm: |
|
Hi all.
Lily---I had a lot of rehearsals today. Thanks so much for your post, I couldn't have said it better myself.
ASHERAH---yes, there is a "Michael Jackson Pill" in Africa, however, it's manufactured in Belgium, Holland and Germany and like the hair extentions of KOREA is yet another way that millions are made off the self-hatred of black people. The pill is named "Michael Jackson Pill" by those who DON'T USE IT, as a put down to those who do. But the very use of the name is testament to the SYMBOL that Michael Jackson has allowed himself to become in the Black world. A black man who uses his LIFE to tell the world that it's better to be White and that Whiteness is Superior....as evidenced by his children, his wives and partners, his playmates and the physical media images he creates.
As a BLACK WOMAN living in California with Black Sons, I find it impossible not to be a lot more than just "frustrated", and I can't tell you how it irks me when white women like yourself comment so nonchalantly on issues inflicted by your group-- but issues, nonetheless, that you can deal with or not deal with--depending on how you feel that day. Once again, you really are FREE from the PAIN and CONSEQUENCES of it. Whether MJ is "personally responsible" or not----he is a LIVING SYMBOL of both our people's sickness and the root of the problem, because he uses his image and his work to promote White Supremacist images and ideals, regardless of whether he's a victim or even aware of it or not. I would rather my children be exposed to BIRTH OF A NATION and GONE WITH THE WIND.....than to Michael Jackson, and that's the truth.
I would be far less critical of Jackson if he would at least come out and DENOUNCE colorism and White Supremacy and Self-hatred....at least SAY the right thing, even if you can't LIVE IT.
For those of us whose lives are adversely affected moment to moment by the reality COLOR and African Hair and African features, there really is no choice.....many Black people, ASHERAH, are weaker than I and choose to live in DENIAL about this situation, because THEN they would have to do something about it---or they don't know WHAT TO DO about it.........and whether anyone realizes it or not, I speak for huge numbers of black women who tell me that they either don't have the courage to talk about this issue in public or aren't very good at expressing themselves with words.
Trust me....it is NO FUN being the one to speak out on this issue and to challenge people and to get in their face and DEMAND something different for our black children. THIS ISSUE---does not make me popular, liked or welcomed.
But the emerging national discourse about this subject, COLORISM, has really just begun....so it's too bad for people like ABM and so many others who are TIRED of hearing about it and wish that people didn't have to talk about it---all the time.
Lily said a very true thing. I don't want my sons to grow up and be niggerized by the CULTURE created by people like Michael Jackson, etc.---therefore I make sure to teach them WHY this exists and WHY it is out of control and IGNORED by the majority of people. I also try, to the best of my ability, to instill an intrinsic self-love and self-acceptance in them....while at the same time fostering love and acceptance of people of other races----but as the anger and rage at the realization that this society wants my sons to ERASE themselves and any trace of me and their father-----it becomes very hard not to be paranoid and to despise other races (the ones that are accepted as themselves). Malcolm X called this reaction: "The HATE that HATE created".
I refuse to feel as though I'm being a party pooper just because I'm COMPETENT and RESPONSIBLE enough to speak out when the very existence of my children is being threatened.
One only has to look a Photo Books of the Black People in this country over the last 135 years to see that every 10 years, they become less and less Black---their features more neutral, their hair less African and their skin less rich.
There are FAR MORE AFRICANS who think like I do....than there are who bleach their skin.
But as Lily pointed out, anyone who knows my work KNOWS that my focus has been placed on the self-hatred of AFRICANS far more than on the Black Americans. You and ABM simply haven't read my work---because they (and my own adoption, the Sudan) are the models that I use in attacking this Colonial Slave disease we have.
But still, thanks for your opinion, because that's the only way that people come to know each other----by communication.
TO ABM:
I'm glad Lily brought up the fact that the self-hating behavior of Africans is NOT SEPARATE from the same issue in Black Americans. ALL BLACK PEOPLE are suffering from this psychosis--worldwide----and she's right, I DON'T LIVE IN AFRICA. I live HERE and am responsible for the messages/images that I bring to the Black people...over HERE. Anything I do here will get back to Africa.
We may be all fucked up...but SOMEBODY has got to set in motion...a CHANGE for our people. And since Michael Jackson is so Backwards, we need to agree that it won't be him.
We can't keep accepting this self-destruction as part of our identity.
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 436
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:22 pm: |
|
ABM you are so full of it (and I truly am not angry at you or shouting at you---but you are really playing possum now).
You know damned well that ALL PEOPLE of every race....are INFLUENCED by the general society's "images", "role models" and "ideologies".
Why do white girls suffer ANOREXIA and BULLEMIA, ABM?
What is it...in this society that causes this, ABM?
What is it ABM that makes so many little black boys identify with PIMPS and G-Niggaz?
Just their own idea?
Lily just TOLD YOU POINT BLANK....WHY she dyed her hair blonde and why she wanted to be Light Skinned. And yet you totally ignored her experience.
Black kids are human beings. They want to be like and immulate those people from THEIR GROUP who are successful, famous and rich.
If every Black HERO is saying that you're nothing until you have a White Wife (white husband), mulatto Kids and own a mansion in a white neighborhood----then that resonates with little black boys AND girls.
WHY IN HELL...did women in Africa suddenly start wanting Skin Bleaching Cream??? Nyibol and I can both tell you that they sure as hell didn't want it 20 years ago.
ABM...you are NOT going to sit up here and try to claim that the images that we worship and adore don't SHAPE what is considered beautiful, desirable and IMMULATED by our children!
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2220
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:26 pm: |
|
Kola,
I won't contradict a single thing you say. But all of THAT's why foks need to concentrate on raising, nurturing and loving their children.
Because sure all those those things can cause problems. But their effectiveness can be PROFOUNDLY reduced if/when parents...PARENT! |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2221
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:29 pm: |
|
Michael Jackson is a REMARKABLE entertainer. But I imagine there are MANY things that I can do better than he. So why we must worship everything he does simply because of his wealth/celebrity is much more a resounding indictment of US than it is of him. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 438
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:32 pm: |
|
Don't most children who have witnessed Domestic Violence grow up to be abusers or victims of the same?
Are you claiming, ABM...that little black girls are NOT AFFECTED by seeing most of the black men on t.v. paired up with whites, latinas and bi-racials?
You think this makes them proud to be black---rather than regretful that they aren't lighter?
YOU REALLY....for 2 seconds...BELIEVE THAT?
____________
You think they're going to grow up wanting Black Men?
|
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 439
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:34 pm: |
|
I AGREE WITH THIS ABM:
Kola,
I won't contradict a single thing you say. But all of THAT's why foks need to concentrate on raising, nurturing and loving their children.
Because sure all those those things can cause problems. But their effectiveness can be PROFOUNDLY reduced if/when parents...PARENT!
_________________________
But 70% of our children are raised by Single Mothers, many of whom have to work long hours and have little education or self-knowledge themselves, ABM.
Black children watch more T.V. than any other group of people in the country.
THAT....is WHY these media images are even MORE IMPORTANT, my King.
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2222
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:36 pm: |
|
Perhaps...'Course, they could - AMAZINGLY - decide to think for themselves.
Kola, had I allow what I saw/heard as a child determine what I was going to do, I wouldn't be here to be having this conversation with you right now.
And, ironically, were you NOT likewise, neither would you. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 440
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
|
O.K.
I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER ABOUT MJ's SELF-HATRED.
__________________
Because of ABM....I do realize that MJ is a victim, too, and that he deserves compassion and understanding from me. Inside myself, I too love Michael Jackson...and I try to remind myself that he is STILL a child of our bloodberry. I know that this is where Nyibol is coming from with her support of him. No matter what--he is our bloodberry.
Now as far as his innocence---I'm not so sure anymore, but in my gut, I don't believe the original accuser in this trial.
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2223
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
|
Kola: But 70% of our children are raised by Single Mothers, many of whom have to work long hours and have little education or self-knowledge themselves, ABM.
ABM: You can count Yours Truly within that demographic. Yet, AMAZINGLY, I managed to get a degree, business, home loan, etc.
Kola: Black children watch more T.V. than any other group of people in the country.
ABM: Same here. There was no more a TV junkie as I kid than I was. Yet, somehow, I learned to read, write and figure pretty darn good.
Kola: THAT....is WHY these media images are even MORE IMPORTANT, my King.
ABM: The 'devil' is only as potent as we permit him to be, love. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 441
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:44 pm: |
|
ABM---we posted at the same moment.
Read my last post.
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2224
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:46 pm: |
|
I've never said he was innocent, primarily because I just don't know.
In my most objective mind, I'm sort of split down the middle. Could MJ molest a kid? Probably. Did he molest THIS particular kid, given what what's been said thus far? Now THAT's where things get murky.
I've only really argued that I've seen scant sufficient evidence to convict him of a crime in a court of law. |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 442
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:50 pm: |
|
I totally agree, ABM.
This trial sucks ass. They're even making me doubt the earlier accusers now that I see how they're so obsessed with pinning something on this man and how OILY the "boys" all are. Little opportunist assholes.
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2225
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
|
I'm sorry for blowing up about MJ last night. Like admit, I have a strange sort of soft spot for the Jacksons. It's not just some crazy star-struck thing. Rather, I guess it's because thinking about them invokes such vivid memories of my childhood, that, well...(DAYAM! I hate this SHIT happened to Michael Jackson!  ) |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 444
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
|
It's OK handsome, I understand.
And disagreeing goes with steak and salad and light pasta. Shame I can't feed you like I want to.
|
Nyibol
Regular Poster
Username: Africanqueen
Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:16 pm: |
|
I'm with you there ABM. I've never known a single virgin Christian man either; but it's nobody's busines who's a virgin and who isn't. That's just my opinion, that's the respect people need to have for each other. But as you can see people in America are ashamed of virginity. Young girls loose it by 11, 12, get pregnant and abort their babies. So yeah, it's almost impossible to find virgins in America. ABM, I just would like to tell you in that there is no reason to be afraid God loves you! |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 446
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:19 pm: |
|
You tell him Nyibol!
LOL
I'm loving it.
____________________________
*Nyibol, ABM is a close friend of mines over the years--away from the board. We joke around and flirt a lot, because we had mid-life crushes on each other. In my fantasies, I make him dinner and in his fantasies, he...well. LOL
|
asherah
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 05:06 am: |
|
ABM, I'm not going to nag any longer about our little misunderstanding here. I basically agree with what you said on this issue anyway.
Neither do I want to repeat my opinions about this topic as it has become an endless back and forth pulling around MJ's person, which I still think he doesn't deserve and I didn't want to make myself guilty about that in the first place, so I should have known to better shut my mouth from the beginning.
But I just want to let you know, Kola and any other black person around the world suffering from this, that I'm not taking off ANYTHING from your experience and truth about all this(and I don't shut my eyes for it, nor do I blame you for showing your anger about this). Even if that seems to be irreconcilable with both my support for MJ as a PERSON.
PEACE TO ALL   |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 447
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 09:20 am: |
|
Asherah, girl, you are so sweet.
Thank you.
|
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2235
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 02:09 pm: |
|
Kola,
Within my fantasies, I do the cooking...and YOU are the “dinner”. *wink* |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2236
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 02:13 pm: |
|
Nyibol,
And I have no qualms about virginity. But, respectfully, I place no special value upon it either.
I view sex to be a vital, beautiful part of human expression. And so long as sound, consenting adults engage in lovemaking in a pleasurable, healthy, safe and respectful manner; I see nothing but GLORY within people sharing their bodies. |
Mivhar Meni
Newbie Poster
Username: Mivharmeni
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 08:34 pm: |
|
I just have one question........
Would you let your child sleep in the bed with Michael? |
ABM
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2254
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 03, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
|
Mivhar,
No. But then, there are FEW if ANY people I would allow my children to sleep with.
So what’s your point? |
Jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
|
ABM you need to study the patterns and MO's of pedophiles. Oh please baby Please let me sleep in the bed with your son (sob sob). You're starting to worry me ABM. You and Michael Jackson are going to be the last men standing on this one. And YES that boy's mother was wrong for pimpin her son...but hey Michael Jackson knows that MONEY will make ya do anything.
pervert |
Xosha
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
|
Amen sister.
MJ is going to prison.
|
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 143
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 11:49 am: |
|
I have a question. How quickly can charges be brought against these ADULTS now testifying that they witnessed MJ abusing other kids in the past?
Watch, they will claim he was tyrannical employer and were afraid for their jobs if they confronted or reported him. And further, they'd be blacklisted all over Cali and couldn't get a job elsewhere. And he threatened to have them killed if they told. And then he'd kick their cat...
Sigh.
Still, though MJ clearly ain't quite right, I'm all for due process.
ABM...great answer to Mivhar's question. |
Jackie
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
|
This mofo flew all the way to New York to sleep in the bed with this boy. And tell me what child molestor is going to leave the door open, or let his clandestine activities known. My only concern is for the children, the parents and adults can take a long walk off a short pier for all I'm concerned. True parents and child advocates go through extraordinary means for the welfare of their children. This predator found a way to get to all these teenage BOYS and some instances 10 year olds to satisfy something he cannot control. Suck it up everybody (no pun intended)
Michael Jackson is GOING DOWN |
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 144
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
|
Jackie: And tell me what child molestor is going to leave the door open, or let his clandestine activities known.
Mah: One who is so twisted and delusional that he thinks he's above reproach.
That said, I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to.
Jackie: Suck it up everybody (no pun intended)Michael Jackson is GOING DOWN
Mah: Jackie, the comment above would seem to suggest that someone here wouldn't want to see a guilty Michael Jackson go down. Perhaps you can clarify as to what you are referring to, because I haven't seen that sentiment expressed.
Personally, I hope he's NOT guilty, only because I don't want to him to have hurt children. I don't want anyone to hurt children. But if he's guilty, let him go down.
Of course, if he's innocent, that would mean something else for the parents and children involved. Either way, children are being horribly served.
|
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 145
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
|
Jackie: And tell me what child molestor is going to leave the door open, or let his clandestine activities known.
Mah: One who has gotten the child's mother so thoroughly cowed into submission that he makes her listen as he is violating her child.
One who has the parent's permission to violate said child, in exchange for money, drugs, or just for kicks.
Sadly, it happens.
|
Mahogany Anais
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 146
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 12, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
|
If any adults witnessed MJ abusing a child and didn't report it when it happened, they should be charged for that. I'm not speculating on whether this did or didn't happen. |
Bobby
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2005 - 11:00 pm: |
|
MJ is innocent! He's a victim of the white man's oppression! So much so his own skin even turned white! |
Lily
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
|
Where were Michael's own children while he was doing all this stuff with the cancer kids and their mom?
It doesn't seem like they were even on the premises for months.
Couldn't he have played with and slept with his own kids? What was the need for all this "love" and "sharing" with other people's kids?
Why does a 46 year old man need this?
|
MichaelosthisMind
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 01:56 am: |
|
Just wanted to mention the tapes that claim Michael is talking about his "nigger hair"... they probably don't exist. Haven't come across a source yet that has the audio so it could be a lie. Google only turns up a few results for the story so that makes it that much less credible (the media would have a field day on it, otherwise).
Another thing I wanted to add about Michael... if MJ is so interested in helping children then, it's obvious that, the help should start with the parents (particularly the mother). You can't help a child by having ridiculous/expensive sleep overs. If Michael really wanted to help kids then his campaigns would be launched towards helping the parents of the children whom raise them. Instead, Michael campaigns to get unrelated and complete stranger kids into his private life (and bedroom) -- which is definitely something to be very suspicous of. The amount of money that he spends on such a "perverted" acts could easily help thousands of needy children in the ghettos, etc.
As a huge fan of Michael (...I can do all of his dance moves, for example), there's no denying that he has crossed the line of "role model". How do you expect people to look up to someone who thinks he is a ridiculous fairy tale creature named Peter Pan?
Viewed objectively, there is absolutely nothing a grown and busy man can get out of repeatedly making arrangements of sleeping with children -- physically sexual or not, it could very well still be "sexual." If true, Michael certainly would not be the first to hide molestation under the name of goodwill and God (as many priests have/are doing).
Also, MJ has indeed told straight-faced lies or bending truths on camera before. Examples being... the amount of plastic surgery he's had, an earlier interview with Lisa Presley on Diane? where he said that the amount of money paid to the first accuser wasn't any where near as much as rumored, and his persistent speaking in a meak, shrill voice that is acted. MJ's true, deeper speaking voice can be heard on the making of ghosts where he's talking about having a lot of fun doing the project. It's noticeably deeper and more man-like than his public persona ruse.
.....still, having said all of this, I'm still not convinced he is doing anything to kids. But it certainly wouldn't surprise me giving the other MJ eccentricities.
Because of the racial issues surrounding people like MJ, I've have to give myself a new designation....
Sincerely
Black Supremacist
Jon
I'll show you how its done! |
kola@aalbc.com
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 577
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
|
THIS THREAD
HAS BEEN MOVED HERE:
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/2152/4931.html?1114360714
BECAUSE IT HAS GOTTEN TOO LONG.
PLEASE POST ON THE "NEW" M.J. trial THREAD.
|
arkeni
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:00 am: |
|
The Untold Story
By
Mary A. Fisher
GQ, October 1994
The untold story of the events that brought down a superstar. Before
O.J. Simpson, there was Michael Jackson -- another beloved black
celebrity seemingly brought down by allegations of scandal in his
personal life. Those allegations -- that Jackson had molested a
13-year-old boy -- instigated a multimillion-dollar lawsuit, two
grand-jury investigations and a shameless media circus. Jackson, in
turn, filed charges of extortion against some of his accusers.
Ultimately, the suit was settled out of court for a sum that has been
estimated at $20 million; no criminal charges were brought against
Jackson by the police or the grand juries. This past August, Jackson
was in the news again, when Lisa Marie Presley, Elvis's daughter,
announced that she and the singer had married.
As the dust settles on one of the nation's worst episodes of media
excess, one thing is clear: The American public has never heard a
defense of Michael Jackson. Until now.
It is, of course, impossible to prove a negative -- that is, prove
that something didn't happen. But it is possible to take an in-depth
look at the people who made the allegations against Jackson and thus
gain insight into their character and motives. What emerges from such
an examination, based on court documents, business records and scores
of interviews, is a persuasive argument that Jackson molested no one
and that he himself may have been the victim of a well-conceived plan
to extract money from him.
More than that, the story that arises from this previously unexplored
territory is radically different from the tale that has been promoted
by tabloid and even mainstream journalists. It is a story of greed,
ambition, misconceptions on the part of police and prosecutors, a lazy
and sensation-seeking media and the use of a powerful, hypnotic drug.
It may also be a story about how a case was simply invented.
Neither Michael Jackson nor his current defense attorneys agreed to be
interviewed for this article. Had they decided to fight the civil
charges and go to trial, what follows might have served as the core of
Jackson's defense -- as well as the basis to further the extortion
charges against his own accusers, which could well have exonerated the
singer.
Jackson's troubles began when his van broke down on Wilshire Boulevard
in Los Angeles in May 1992. Stranded in the middle of the heavily
trafficked street, Jackson was spotted by the wife of Mel Green, an
employee at Rent-a-Wreck, an offbeat car-rental agency a mile away.
Green went to the rescue. When Dave Schwartz, the owner of the
car-rental company, heard Green was bringing Jackson to the lot, he
called his wife, June, and told her to come over with their 6-year-old
daughter and her son from her previous marriage. The boy, then 12, was
a big Jackson fan. Upon arriving, June Chandler Schwartz told Jackson
about the time her son had sent him a drawing after the singer's hair
caught on fire during the filming of a Pepsi commercial. Then she gave
Jackson their home number.
"It was almost like she was forcing [the boy] on him," Green recalls.
"I think Michael thought he owed the boy something, and that's when it
all started."
Certain facts about the relationship are not in dispute. Jackson began
calling the boy, and a friendship developed. After Jackson returned
from a promotional tour, three months later, June Chandler Schwartz
and her son and daughter became regular guests at Neverland, Jackson's
ranch in Santa Barbara County. During the following year, Jackson
showered the boy and his family with attention and gifts, including
video games, watches, an after-hours shopping spree at Toys "R" Us and
trips around the world -- from Las Vegas and Disney World to Monaco
and Paris.
By March 1993, Jackson and the boy were together frequently and the
sleepovers began. June Chandler Schwartz had also become close to
Jackson "and liked him enormously," one friend says. "He was the
kindest man she had ever met."
Jackson's personal eccentricities -- from his attempts to remake his
face through plastic surgery to his preference for the company of
children -- have been widely reported. And while it may be unusual for
a 35-year-old man to have sleepovers with a 13-year-old child, the
boy's mother and others close to Jackson never thought it odd.
Jackson's behavior is better understood once it's put in the context
of his own childhood.
"Contrary to what you might think, Michael's life hasn't been a walk
in the park," one of his attorneys says. Jackson's childhood
essentially stopped -- and his unorthodox life began -- when he was 5
years old and living in Gary, Indiana. Michael spent his youth in
rehearsal studios, on stages performing before millions of strangers
and sleeping in an endless string of hotel rooms. Except for his eight
brothers and sisters, Jackson was surrounded by adults who pushed him
relentlessly, particularly his father, Joe Jackson -- a strict,
unaffectionate man who reportedly beat his children.
Jackson's early experiences translated into a kind of arrested
development, many say, and he became a child in a man's body. "He
never had a childhood," says Bert Fields, a former attorney of
Jackson's. "He is having one now. His buddies are 12-year-old kids.
They have pillow fights and food fights." Jackson's interest in
children also translated into humanitarian efforts. Over the years, he
has given millions to causes benefiting children, including his own
Heal The World Foundation.
But there is another context -- the one having to do with the times in
which we live -- in which most observers would evaluate Jackson's
behavior. "Given the current confusion and hysteria over child sexual
abuse," says Dr. Phillip Resnick, a noted Cleveland psychiatrist, "any
physical or nurturing contact with a child may be seen as suspicious,
and the adult could well be accused of sexual misconduct."
Jackson's involvement with the boy was welcomed, at first, by all the
adults in the youth's life -- his mother, his stepfather and even his
biological father, Evan Chandler (who also declined to be interviewed
for this article). Born Evan Robert Charmatz in the Bronx in 1944,
Chandler had reluctantly followed in the footsteps of his father and
brothers and become a dentist. "He hated being a dentist," a family
friend says. "He always wanted to be a writer." After moving in 1973
to West Palm Beach to practice dentistry, he changed his last name,
believing Charmatz was "too Jewish-sounding," says a former colleague.
Hoping somehow to become a screenwriter, Chandler moved to Los Angeles
in the late Seventies with his wife, June Wong, an attractive Eurasian
who had worked briefly as a model.
Chandler's dental career had its precarious moments. In December 1978,
while working at the Crenshaw Family Dental Center, a clinic in a
low-income area of L.A., Chandler did restoration work on sixteen of a
patient's teeth during a single visit. An examination of the work, the
Board of Dental Examiners concluded, revealed "gross ignorance and/or
inefficiency" in his profession. The board revoked his license;
however, the revocation was stayed, and the board instead suspended
him for ninety days and placed him on probation for two and a half
years. Devastated, Chandler left town for New York. He wrote a film
script but couldn't sell it.
Months later, Chandler returned to L.A. with his wife and held a
series of dentistry jobs. By 1980, when their son was born, the
couple's marriage was in trouble. "One of the reasons June left Evan
was because of his temper," a family friend says. They divorced in
1985. The court awarded sole custody of the boy to his mother and
ordered Chandler to pay $500 a month in child support, but a review of
documents reveals that in 1993, when the Jackson scandal broke,
Chandler owed his ex-wife $68,000 -- a debt she ultimately forgave.
A year before Jackson came into his son's life, Chandler had a second
serious professional problem. One of his patients, a model, sued him
for dental negligence after he did restoration work on some of her
teeth. Chandler claimed that the woman had signed a consent form in
which she'd acknowledged the risks involved. But when Edwin Zinman,
her attorney, asked to see the original records, Chandler said they
had been stolen from the trunk of his Jaguar. He provided a duplicate
set. Zinman, suspicious, was unable to verify the authenticity of the
records. "What an extraordinary coincidence that they were stolen,"
Zinman says now. "That's like saying 'The dog ate my homework.' " The
suit was eventually settled out of court for an undisclosed sum.
Despite such setbacks, Chandler by then had a successful practice in
Beverly Hills. And he got his first break in Hollywood in 1992, when
he cowrote the Mel Brooks film Robin Hood: Men in Tights. Until
Michael Jackson entered his son's life, Chandler hadn't shown all that
much interest in the boy. "He kept promising to buy him a computer so
they could work on scripts together, but he never did," says Michael
Freeman, formerly an attorney for June Chandler Schwartz. Chandler's
dental practice kept him busy, and he had started a new family by
then, with two small children by his second wife, a corporate
attorney.
At first, Chandler welcomed and encouraged his son's relationship with
Michael Jackson, bragging about it to friends and associates. When
Jackson and the boy stayed with Chandler during May 1993, Chandler
urged the entertainer to spend more time with his son at his house.
According to sources, Chandler even suggested that Jackson build an
addition onto the house so the singer could stay there. After calling
the zoning department and discovering it couldn't be done, Chandler
made another suggestion -- that Jackson just build him a new home.
That same month, the boy, his mother and Jackson flew to Monaco for
the World Music Awards. "Evan began to get jealous of the involvement
and felt left out," Freeman says. Upon their return, Jackson and the
boy again stayed with Chandler, which pleased him -- a five-day visit,
during which they slept in a room with the youth's half brother.
Though Chandler has admitted that Jackson and the boy always had their
clothes on whenever he saw them in bed together, he claimed that it
was during this time that his suspicions of sexual misconduct were
triggered. At no time has Chandler claimed to have witnessed any
sexual misconduct on Jackson's part.
Chandler became increasingly volatile, making threats that alienated
Jackson, Dave Schwartz and June Chandler Schwartz. In early July 1993,
Dave Schwartz, who had been friendly with Chandler, secretly
tape-recorded a lengthy telephone conversation he had with him. During
the conversation, Chandler talked of his concern for his son and his
anger at Jackson and at his ex-wife, whom he described as "cold and
heartless." When Chandler tried to "get her attention" to discuss his
suspicions about Jackson, he says on the tape, she told him "Go fuck
yourself."
"I had a good communication with Michael," Chandler told Schwartz. "We
were friends. I liked him and I respected him and everything else for
what he is. There was no reason why he had to stop calling me. I sat
in the room one day and talked to Michael and told him exactly what I
want out of this whole relationship. What I want."
Admitting to Schwartz that he had "been rehearsed" about what to say
and what not to say, Chandler never mentioned money during their
conversation. When Schwartz asked what Jackson had done that made
Chandler so upset, Chandler alleged only that "he broke up the family.
[The boy] has been seduced by this guy's power and money." Both men
repeatedly berated themselves as poor fathers to the boy.
Elsewhere on the tape, Chandler indicated he was prepared to move
against Jackson: "It's already set," Chandler told Schwartz. "There
are other people involved that are waiting for my phone call that are
in certain positions. I've paid them to do it. Everything's going
according to a certain plan that isn't just mine. Once I make that
phone call, this guy [his attorney, Barry K. Rothman, presumably] is
going to destroy everybody in sight in any devious, nasty, cruel way
that he can do it. And I've given him full authority to do that."
Chandler then predicted what would, in fact, transpire six weeks
later: "And if I go through with this, I win big-time. There's no way
I lose. I've checked that inside out. I will get everything I want,
and they will be destroyed forever. June will lose [custody of the
son]...and Michael's career will be over."
"Does that help [the boy]?" Schwartz asked.
"That's irrelevant to me," Chandler replied. "It's going to be bigger
than all of us put together. The whole thing is going to crash down on
everybody and destroy everybody in sight. It will be a massacre if I
don't get what I want."
Instead of going to the police, seemingly the most appropriate action
in a situation involving suspected child molestation, Chandler had
turned to a lawyer. And not just any lawyer. He'd turned to Barry
Rothman.
"This attorney I found, I picked the nastiest son of a bitch I could
find," Chandler said in the recorded conversation with Schwartz. "All
he wants to do is get this out in the public as fast as he can, as big
as he can, and humiliate as many people as he can. He's nasty, he's
mean, he's very smart, and he's hungry for the publicity." (Through
his attorney, Wylie Aitken, Rothman declined to be interviewed for
this article. Aitken agreed to answer general questions limited to the
Jackson case, and then only about aspects that did not involve
Chandler or the boy.)
To know Rothman, says a former colleague who worked with him during
the Jackson case, and who kept a diary of what Rothman and Chandler
said and did in Rothman's office, is to believe that Barry could have
"devised this whole plan, period. This [making allegations against
Michael Jackson] is within the boundary of his character, to do
something like this." Information supplied by Rothman's former
clients, associates and employees reveals a pattern of manipulation
and deceit.
Rothman has a general-law practice in Century City. At one time, he
negotiated music and concert deals for Little Richard, the Rolling
Stones, the Who, ELO and Ozzy Osbourne. Gold and platinum records
commemorating those days still hang on the walls of his office. With
his grayish-white beard and perpetual tan -- which he maintains in a
tanning bed at his house -- Rothman reminds a former client of "a
leprechaun." To a former employee, Rothman is "a demon" with "a
terrible temper." His most cherished possession, acquaintances say, is
his 1977 Rolls-Royce Corniche, which carries the license plate "BKR
1."
Over the years, Rothman has made so many enemies that his ex-wife once
expressed, to her attorney, surprise that someone "hadn't done him
in." He has a reputation for stiffing people. "He appears to be a
professional deadbeat... He pays almost no one," investigator Ed
Marcus concluded (in a report filed in Los Angeles Superior Court, as
part of a lawsuit against Rothman), after reviewing the attorney's
credit profile, which listed more than thirty creditors and judgment
holders who were chasing him. In addition, more than twenty civil
lawsuits involving Rothman have been filed in Superior Court, several
complaints have been made to the Labor Commission and disciplinary
actions for three incidents have been taken against him by the state
bar of California. In 1992, he was suspended for a year, though that
suspension was stayed and he was instead placed on probation for the
term.
In 1987, Rothman was $16,800 behind in alimony and child-support
payments. Through her attorney, his ex-wife, Joanne Ward, threatened
to attach Rothman's assets, but he agreed to make good on the debt. A
year later, after Rothman still hadn't made the payments, Ward's
attorney tried to put a lien on Rothman's expensive Sherman Oaks home.
To their surprise, Rothman said he no longer owned the house; three
years earlier, he'd deeded the property to Tinoa Operations, Inc., a
Panamanian shell corporation. According to Ward's lawyer, Rothman
claimed that he'd had $200,000 of Tinoa's money, in cash, at his house
one night when he was robbed at gunpoint. The only way he could make
good on the loss was to deed his home to Tinoa, he told them. Ward and
her attorney suspected the whole scenario was a ruse, but they could
never prove it. It was only after sheriff's deputies had towed away
Rothman's Rolls Royce that he began paying what he owed.
Documents filed with Los Angeles Superior Court seem to confirm the
suspicions of Ward and her attorney. These show that Rothman created
an elaborate network of foreign bank accounts and shell companies,
seemingly to conceal some of his assets -- in particular, his home and
much of the $531,000 proceeds from its eventual sale, in 1989. The
companies, including Tinoa, can be traced to Rothman. He bought a
Panamanian shelf company (an existing but nonoperating firm) and
arranged matters so that though his name would not appear on the list
of its officers, he would have unconditional power of attorney, in
effect leaving him in control of moving money in and out.
Meanwhile, Rothman's employees didn't fare much better than his
ex-wife. Former employees say they sometimes had to beg for their
paychecks. And sometimes the checks that they did get would bounce. He
couldn't keep legal secretaries. "He'd demean and humiliate them,"
says one. Temporary workers fared the worst. "He would work them for
two weeks," adds the legal secretary, "then run them off by yelling at
them and saying they were stupid. Then he'd tell the agency he was
dissatisfied with the temp and wouldn't pay." Some agencies finally
got wise and made Rothman pay cash up front before they'd do business
with him.
The state bar's 1992 disciplining of Rothman grew out of a
conflict-of-interest matter. A year earlier, Rothman had been kicked
off a case by a client, Muriel Metcalf, whom he'd been representing in
child-support and custody proceedings; Metcalf later accused him of
padding her bill. Four months after Metcalf fired him, Rothman,
without notifying her, began representing the company of her estranged
companion, Bob Brutzman.
The case is revealing for another reason: It shows that Rothman had
some experience dealing with child-molestation allegations before the
Jackson scandal. Metcalf, while Rothman was still representing her,
had accused Brutzman of molesting their child (which Brutzman denied).
Rothman's knowledge of Metcalf's charges didn't prevent him from going
to work for Brutzman's company -- a move for which he was disciplined.
By 1992, Rothman was running from numerous creditors. Folb Management,
a corporate real-estate agency, was one. Rothman owed the company
$53,000 in back rent and interest for an office on Sunset Boulevard.
Folb sued. Rothman then countersued, claiming that the building's
security was so inadequate that burglars were able to steal more than
$6,900 worth of equipment from his office one night. In the course of
the proceedings, Folb's lawyer told the court, "Mr. Rothman is not the
kind of person whose word can be taken at face value."
In November 1992, Rothman had his law firm file for bankruptcy,
listing thirteen creditors -- including Folb Management -- with debts
totaling $880,000 and no acknowledged assets. After reviewing the
bankruptcy papers, an ex-client whom Rothman was suing for $400,000 in
legal fees noticed that Rothman had failed to list a $133,000 asset.
The former client threatened to expose Rothman for "defrauding his
creditors" -- a felony -- if he didn't drop the lawsuit. Cornered,
Rothman had the suit dismissed in a matter of hours.
Six months before filing for bankruptcy, Rothman had transferred title
on his Rolls-Royce to Majo, a fictitious company he controlled. Three
years earlier, Rothman had claimed a different corporate owner for the
car -- Longridge Estates, a subsidiary of Tinoa Operations, the
company that held the deed to his home. On corporation papers filed by
Rothman, the addresses listed for Longridge and Tinoa were the same,
1554 Cahuenga Boulevard -- which, as it turns out, is that of a
Chinese restaurant in Hollywood.
It was with this man, in June 1993, that Evan Chandler began carrying
out the "certain plan" to which he referred in his taped conversation
with Dave Schwartz. At a graduation that month, Chandler confronted
his ex-wife with his suspicions. "She thought the whole thing was
baloney," says her ex-attorney, Michael Freeman. She told Chandler
that she planned to take their son out of school in the fall so they
could accompany Jackson on his "Dangerous" world tour. Chandler became
irate and, say several sources, threatened to go public with the
evidence he claimed he had on Jackson. "What parent in his right mind
would want to drag his child into the public spotlight?" asks Freeman.
"If something like this actually occurred, you'd want to protect your
child."
Jackson asked his then-lawyer, Bert Fields, to intervene. One of the
most prominent attorneys in the entertainment industry, Fields has
been representing Jackson since 1990 and had negotiated for him, with
Sony, the biggest music deal ever -- with possible earnings of $700
million. Fields brought in investigator Anthony Pellicano to help sort
things out. Pellicano does things Sicilian-style, being fiercely loyal
to those he likes but a ruthless hardball player when it comes to his
enemies.
On July 9, 1993, Dave Schwartz and June Chandler Schwartz played the
taped conversation for Pellicano. "After listening to the tape for ten
minutes, I knew it was about extortion," says Pellicano. That same
day, he drove to Jackson's Century City condominium, where Chandler's
son and the boy's half-sister were visiting. Without Jackson there,
Pellicano "made eye contact" with the boy and asked him, he says,
"very pointed questions": "Has Michael ever touched you? Have you ever
seen him naked in bed?" The answer to all the questions was no. The
boy repeatedly denied that anything bad had happened. On July 11,
after Jackson had declined to meet with Chandler, the boy's father and
Rothman went ahead with another part of the plan -- they needed to get
custody of the boy. Chandler asked his ex-wife to let the youth stay
with him for a "one-week visitation period." As Bert Fields later said
in an affidavit to the court, June Chandler Schwartz allowed the boy
to go based on Rothman's assurance to Fields that her son would come
back to her after the specified time, never guessing that Rothman's
word would be worthless and that Chandler would not return their son.
Wylie Aitken, Rothman's attorney, claims that "at the time [Rothman]
gave his word, it was his intention to have the boy returned."
However, once "he learned that the boy would be whisked out of the
country [to go on tour with Jackson], I don't think Mr. Rothman had
any other choice." But the chronology clearly indicates that Chandler
had learned in June, at the graduation, that the boy's mother planned
to take her son on the tour. The taped telephone conversation made in
early July, before Chandler took custody of his son, also seems to
verify that Chandler and Rothman had no intention of abiding by the
visitation agreement. "They [the boy and his mother] don't know it
yet," Chandler told Schwartz, "but they aren't going anywhere."
On July 12, one day after Chandler took control of his son, he had his
ex-wife sign a document prepared by Rothman that prevented her from
taking the youth out of Los Angeles County. This meant the boy would
be unable to accompany Jackson on the tour. His mother told the court
she signed the document under duress. Chandler, she said in an
affidavit, had threatened that "I would not have [the boy] returned to
me." A bitter custody battle ensued, making even murkier any charges
Chandler made about wrong-doing on Jackson's part. (As of this August
[1994], the boy was still living with Chandler.) It was during the
first few weeks after Chandler took control of his son -- who was now
isolated from his friends, mother and stepfather -- that the boy's
allegations began to take shape.
At the same time, Rothman, seeking an expert's opinion to help
establish the allegations against Jackson, called Dr. Mathis Abrams, a
Beverly Hills psychiatrist. Over the telephone, Rothman presented
Abrams with a hypothetical situation. In reply and without having met
either Chandler or his son, Abrams on July 15 sent Rothman a two-page
letter in which he stated that "reasonable suspicion would exist that
sexual abuse may have occurred." Importantly, he also stated that if
this were a real and not a hypothetical case, he would be required by
law to report the matter to the Los Angeles County Department of
Children's Services (DCS).
According to a July 27 entry in the diary kept by Rothman's former
colleague, it's clear that Rothman was guiding Chandler in the plan.
"Rothman wrote letter to Chandler advising him how to report child
abuse without liability to parent," the entry reads.
At this point, there still had been made no demands or formal
accusations, only veiled assertions that had become intertwined with a
fierce custody battle. On August 4, 1993, however, things became very
clear. Chandler and his son met with Jackson and Pellicano in a suite
at the Westwood Marquis Hotel. On seeing Jackson, says Pellicano,
Chandler gave the singer an affectionate hug (a gesture, some say,
that would seem to belie the dentist's suspicions that Jackson had
molested his son), then reached into his pocket, pulled out Abrams's
letter and began reading passages from it. When Chandler got to the
parts about child molestation, the boy, says Pellicano, put his head
down and then looked up at Jackson with a surprised expression, as if
to say "I didn't say that." As the meeting broke up, Chandler pointed
his finger at Jackson, says Pellicano, and warned "I'm going to ruin
you."
At a meeting with Pellicano in Rothman's office later that evening,
Chandler and Rothman made their demand - $20 million.
On August 13, there was another meeting in Rothman's office. Pellicano
came back with a counteroffer -- a $350,000 screenwriting deal.
Pellicano says he made the offer as a way to resolve the custody
dispute and give Chandler an opportunity to spend more time with his
son by working on a screenplay together. Chandler rejected the offer.
Rothman made a counterdemand -- a deal for three screenplays or
nothing -- which was spurned. In the diary of Rothman's ex-colleague,
an August 24 entry reveals Chandler's disappointment: "I almost had a
$20 million deal," he was overhear telling Rothman.
Before Chandler took control of his son, the only one making
allegations against Jackson was Chandler himself -- the boy had never
accused the singer of any wrongdoing. That changed one day in
Chandler's Beverly Hills dental office.
In the presence of Chandler and Mark Torbiner, a dental
anesthesiologist, the boy was administered the controversial drug
sodium Amytal -- which some mistakenly believe is a truth serum. And
it was after this session that the boy first made his charges against
Jackson. A newsman at KCBS-TV, in L.A., reported on May 3 of this year
that Chandler had used the drug on his son, but the dentist claimed he
did so only to pull his son's tooth and that while under the drug's
influence, the boy came out with allegations. Asked for this article
about his use of the drug on the boy, Torbiner replied: "If I used it,
it was for dental purposes."
Given the facts about sodium Amytal and a recent landmark case that
involved the drug, the boy's allegations, say several medical experts,
must be viewed as unreliable, if not highly questionable.
"It's a psychiatric medication that cannot be relied on to produce
fact," says Dr. Resnick, the Cleveland psychiatrist. "People are very
suggestible under it. People will say things under sodium Amytal that
are blatantly untrue." Sodium Amytal is a barbiturate, an invasive
drug that puts people in a hypnotic state when it's injected
intravenously. Primarily administered for the treatment of amnesia, it
first came into use during World War II, on soldiers traumatized --
some into catatonic states -- by the horrors of war. Scientific
studies done in 1952 debunked the drug as a truth serum and instead
demonstrated its risks: False memories can be easily implanted in
those under its influence. "It is quite possible to implant an idea
through the mere asking of a question," says Resnick. But its effects
are apparently even more insidious: "The idea can become their memory,
and studies have shown that even when you tell them the truth, they
will swear on a stack of Bibles that it happened," says Resnick.
Recently, the reliability of the drug became an issue in a
high-profile trial in Napa County, California. After undergoing
numerous therapy sessions, at least one of which included the use of
sodium Amytal, 20-year-old Holly Ramona accused her father of
molesting her as a child. Gary Ramona vehemently denied the charge and
sued his daughter's therapist and the psychiatrist who had
administered the drug. This past May, jurors sided with Gary Ramona,
believing that the therapist and the psychiatrist may have reinforced
memories that were false. Gary Ramona's was the first successful legal
challenge to the so-called "repressed memory phenomenon" that has
produced thousands of sexual-abuse allegations over the past decade.
As for Chandler's story about using the drug to sedate his son during
a tooth extraction, that too seems dubious, in light of the drug's
customary use. "It's absolutely a psychiatric drug," says Dr. Kenneth
Gottlieb, a San Francisco psychiatrist who has administered sodium
Amytal to amnesia patients. Dr. John Yagiela, the coordinator of the
anesthesia and pain control department of UCLA's school of dentistry,
adds, "It's unusual for it to be used [for pulling a tooth]. It makes
no sense when better, safer alternatives are available. It would not
be my choice."
Because of sodium Amytal's potential side effects, some doctors will
administer it only in a hospital. "I would never want to use a drug
that tampers with a person's unconscious unless there was no other
drug available," says Gottlieb. "And I would not use it without
resuscitating equipment, in case of allergic reaction, and only with
an M.D. anesthesiologist present."
Chandler, it seems, did not follow these guidelines. He had the
procedure performed on his son in his office, and he relied on the
dental anesthesiologist Mark Torbiner for expertise. (It was Torbiner
who'd introduced Chandler and Rothman in 1991, when Rothman needed
dental work.)
The nature of Torbiner's practice appears to have made it highly
successful. "He boasts that he has $100 a month overhead and $40,000 a
month income," says Nylla Jones, a former patient of his. Torbiner
doesn't have an office for seeing patients; rather, he travels to
various dental offices around the city, where he administers
anesthesia during procedures.
This magazine has learned that the U.S. Drug Enforcement
Administration is probing another aspect of Torbiner's business
practices: He makes housecalls to administer drugs -- mostly morphine
and Demerol -- not only postoperatively to his dental patients but
also, it seems, to those suffering pain whose source has nothing to do
with dental work. He arrives at the homes of his clients -- some of
them celebrities -- carrying a kind of fishing-tackle box that
contains drugs and syringes. At one time, the license plate on his
Jaguar read "SLPYDOC." According to Jones, Torbiner charges $350 for a
basic ten-to-twenty-minute visit. In what Jones describes as standard
practice, when it's unclear how long Torbiner will need to stay, the
client, anticipating the stupor that will soon set in, leaves a blank
check for Torbiner to fill in with the appropriate amount.
Torbiner wasn't always successful. In 1989, he got caught in a lie and
was asked to resign from UCLA, where he was an assistant professor at
the school of dentistry. Torbiner had asked to take a half-day off so
he could observe a religious holiday but was later found to have
worked at a dental office instead.
A check of Torbiner's credentials with the Board of Dental Examiners
indicates that he is restricted by law to administering drugs solely
for dental-related procedures. But there is clear evidence that he has
not abided by those restrictions. In fact, on at least eight
occasions, Torbiner has given a general anesthetic to Barry Rothman,
during hair-transplant procedures. Though normally a local anesthetic
would be injected into the scalp, "Barry is so afraid of the pain,"
says Dr. James De Yarman, the San Diego physician who performed
Rothman's transplants, "that [he] wanted to be put out completely." De
Yarman said he was "amazed" to learn that Torbiner is a dentist,
having assumed all along that he was an M.D.
In another instance, Torbiner came to the home of Nylla Jones, she
says, and injected her with Demerol to help dull the pain that
followed her appendectomy.
On August 16, three days after Chandler and Rothman rejected the
$350,000 script deal, the situation came to a head. On behalf of June
Chandler Schwartz, Michael Freeman notified Rothman that he would be
filing papers early the next morning that would force Chandler to turn
over the boy. Reacting quickly, Chandler took his son to Mathis
Abrams, the psychiatrist who'd provided Rothman with his assessment of
the hypothetical child-abuse situation. During a three-hour session,
the boy alleged that Jackson had engaged in a sexual relationship with
him. He talked of masturbation, kissing, fondling of nipples and oral
sex. There was, however, no mention of actual penetration, which might
have been verified by a medical exam, thus providing corroborating
evidence.
The next step was inevitable. Abrams, who is required by law to report
any such accusation to authorities, called a social worker at the
Department of Children's Services, who in turn contacted the police.
The full-scale investigation of Michael Jackson was about to begin.
Five days after Abrams called the authorities, the media got wind of
the investigation. On Sunday morning, August 22, Don Ray, a free-lance
reporter in Burbank, was asleep when his phone rang. The caller, one
of his tipsters, said that warrants had been issued to search
Jackson's ranch and condominium. Ray sold the story to L.A.'s KNBC-TV,
which broke the news at 4 P.M. the following day.
After that, Ray "watched this story go away like a freight train," he
says. Within twenty-four hours, Jackson was the lead story on
seventy-three TV news broadcasts in the Los Angeles area alone and was
on the front page of every British newspaper. The story of Michael
Jackson and the 13-year-old boy became a frenzy of hype and
unsubstantiated rumor, with the line between tabloid and mainstream
media virtually eliminated.
The extent of the allegations against Jackson wasn't known until
August 25. A person inside the DCS illegally leaked a copy of the
abuse report to Diane Dimond of Hard Copy. Within hours, the L.A.
office of a British news service also got the report and began selling
copies to any reporter willing to pay $750. The following day, the
world knew about the graphic details in the leaked report. "While
laying next to each other in bed, Mr. Jackson put his hand under [the
child's] shorts," the social worker had written. From there, the
coverage soon demonstrated that anything about Jackson would be fair
game.
"Competition among news organizations became so fierce," says KNBC
reporter Conan Nolan, that "stories weren't being checked out. It was
very unfortunate." The National Enquirer put twenty reporters and
editors on the story. One team knocked on 500 doors in Brentwood
trying to find Evan Chandler and his son. Using property records, they
finally did, catching up with Chandler in his black Mercedes. "He was
not a happy man. But I was," said Andy O'Brien, a tabloid
photographer.
Next came the accusers -- Jackson's former employees. First, Stella
and Philippe Lemarque, Jackson' ex-housekeepers, tried to sell their
story to the tabloids with the help of broker Paul Barresi, a former
porn star. They asked for as much as half a million dollars but wound
up selling an interview to The Globe of Britain for $15,000. The
Quindoys, a Filipino couple who had worked at Neverland, followed.
When their asking price was $100,000, they said " 'the hand was
outside the kid's pants,' " Barresi told a producer of Frontline, a
PBS program. "As soon as their price went up to $500,000, the hand
went inside the pants. So come on." The L.A. district attorney's
office eventually concluded that both couples were useless as
witnesses.
Next came the bodyguards. Purporting to take the journalistic high
road, Hard Copy's Diane Dimond told Frontline in early November of
last year that her program was "pristinely clean on this. We paid no
money for this story at all." But two weeks later, as a Hard Copy
contract reveals, the show was negotiating a $100,000 payment to five
former Jackson security guards who were planning to file a $10 million
lawsuit alleging wrongful termination of their jobs.
On December 1, with the deal in place, two of the guards appeared on
the program; they had been fired, Dimond told viewers, because "they
knew too much about Michael Jackson's strange relationship with young
boys." In reality, as their depositions under oath three months later
reveal, it was clear they had never actually seen Jackson do anything
improper with Chandler's son or any other child:
"So you don't know anything about Mr. Jackson and [the boy], do you?"
one of Jackson's attorneys asked former security guard Morris Williams
under oath. "All I know is from the sworn documents that other people
have sworn to."
"But other than what someone else may have said, you have no firsthand
knowledge about Mr. Jackson and [the boy], do you?"
"That's correct."
"Have you spoken to a child who has ever told you that Mr. Jackson did
anything improper with the child?"
"No."
When asked by Jackson's attorney where he had gotten his impressions,
Williams replied: "Just what I've been hearing in the media and what
I've experienced with my own eyes."
"Okay. That's the point. You experienced nothing with your own eyes,
did you?"
"That's right, nothing."
(The guards' lawsuit, filed in March 1994, was still pending as this
article went to press.)
[NOTE: The case was thrown out of court in July 1995. Read the details
above..]
Next came the maid. On December 15, Hard Copy presented "The Bedroom
Maid's Painful Secret." Blanca Francia told Dimond and other reporters
that she had seen a naked Jackson taking showers and Jacuzzi baths
with young boys. She also told Dimond that she had witnessed her own
son in compromising positions with Jackson -- an allegation that the
grand juries apparently never found credible.
A copy of Francia's sworn testimony reveals that Hard Copy paid her
$20,000, and had Dimond checked out the woman's claims, she would have
found them to be false. Under deposition by a Jackson attorney,
Francia admitted she had never actually see Jackson shower with anyone
nor had she seen him naked with boys in his Jacuzzi. They always had
their swimming trunks on, she acknowledged.
The coverage, says Michael Levine, a Jackson press representative,
"followed a proctologist's view of the world. Hard Copy was loathsome.
The vicious and vile treatment of this man in the media was for
selfish reasons. [Even] if you have never bought a Michael Jackson
record in your life, you should be very concerned. Society is built on
very few pillars. One of them is truth. When you abandon that, it's a
slippery slope."
The investigation of Jackson, which by October 1993 would grow to
involve at least twelve detectives from Santa Barbara and Los Angeles
counties, was instigated in part by the perceptions of one
psychiatrist, Mathis Abrams, who had no particular expertise in child
sexual abuse. Abrams, the DCS caseworker's report noted, "feels the
child is telling the truth." In an era of widespread and often false
claims of child molestation, police and prosecutors have come to give
great weight to the testimony of psychiatrists, therapists and social
workers.
Police seized Jackson's telephone books during the raid on his
residences in August and questioned close to thirty children and their
families. Some, such as Brett Barnes and Wade Robson, said they had
shared Jackson's bed, but like all the others, they gave the same
response -- Jackson had done nothing wrong. "The evidence was very
good for us," says an attorney who worked on Jackson's defense. "The
other side had nothing but a big mouth."
Despite the scant evidence supporting their belief that Jackson was
guilty, the police stepped up their efforts. Two officers flew to the
Philippines to try to nail down the Quindoys' "hand in the pants"
story, but apparently decided it lacked credibility. The police also
employed aggressive investigative techniques -- including allegedly
telling lies -- to push the children into making accusations against
Jackson. According to several parents who complained to Bert Fields,
officers told them unequivocally that their children had been
molested, even though the children denied to their parents that
anything bad had happened. The police, Fields complained in a letter
to Los Angeles Police Chief Willie Williams, "have also frightened
youngsters with outrageous lies, such as 'We have nude photos of you.'
There are, of course, no such photos." One officer, Federico Sicard,
told attorney Michael Freeman that he had lied to the children he'd
interviewed and told them that he himself had been molested as a
child, says Freeman. Sicard did not respond to requests for an
interview for this article.
All along, June Chandler Schwartz rejected the charges Chandler was
making against Jackson -- until a meeting with police in late August
1993. Officers Sicard and Rosibel Ferrufino made a statement that
began to change her mind. "[The officers] admitted they only had one
boy," says Freeman, who attended the meeting, "but they said, 'We're
convinced Michael Jackson molested this boy because he fits the
classic profile of a pedophile perfectly.' "
"There's no such thing as a classic profile. They made a completely
foolish and illogical error," says Dr. Ralph Underwager, a Minneapolis
psychiatrist who has treated pedophiles and victims of incest since
1953. Jackson, he believes, "got nailed" because of "misconceptions
like these that have been allowed to parade as fact in an era of
hysteria." In truth, as a U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
study shows, many child-abuse allegations -- 48 percent of those filed
in 1990 -- proved to be unfounded.
"It was just a matter of time before someone like Jackson became a
target," says Phillip Resnick. "He's rich, bizarre, hangs around with
kids and there is a fragility to him. The atmosphere is such that an
accusation must mean it happened."
The seeds of settlement were already being sown as the police
investigation continued in both counties through the fall of 1993. And
a behind-the-scenes battle among Jackson's lawyers for control of the
case, which would ultimately alter the course the defense would take,
had begun.
By then, June Chandler Schwartz and Dave Schwartz had united with Evan
Chandler against Jackson. The boy's mother, say several sources,
feared what Chandler and Rothman might do if she didn't side with
them. She worried that they would try to advance a charge against her
of parental neglect for allowing her son to have sleepovers with
Jackson. Her attorney, Michael Freeman, in turn, resigned in disgust,
saying later that "the whole thing was such a mess. I felt
uncomfortable with Evan. He isn't a genuine person, and I sensed he
wasn't playing things straight."
Over the months, lawyers for both sides were retained, demoted and
ousted as they feuded over the best strategy to take. Rothman ceased
being Chandler's lawyer in late August, when the Jackson camp filed
extortion charges against the two. Both then hired high-priced
criminal defense attorneys to represent them.. (Rothman retained
Robert Shapiro, now O.J. Simpson's chief lawyer.) According to the
diary kept by Rothman's former colleague, on August 26, before the
extortion charges were filed, Chandler was heard to say "It's my ass
that's on the line and in danger of going to prison." The
investigation into the extortion charges was superficial because, says
a source, "the police never took it that seriously. But a whole lot
more could have been done." For example, as they had done with
Jackson, the police could have sought warrants to search the homes and
offices of Rothman and Chandler. And when both men, through their
attorneys, declined to be interviewed by police, a grand jury could
have been convened.
In mid-September, Larry Feldman, a civil attorney who'd served as head
of the Los Angeles Trial Lawyers Association, began representing
Chandler's son and immediately took control of the situation. He filed
a $30 million civil lawsuit against Jackson, which would prove to be
the beginning of the end.
Once news of the suit spread, the wolves began lining up at the door.
According to a member of Jackson's legal team, "Feldman got dozens of
letters from all kinds of people saying they'd been molested by
Jackson. They went through all of them trying to find somebody, and
they found zero."
With the possibility of criminal charges against Jackson now looming,
Bert Fields brought in Howard Weitzman, a well-known criminal-defense
lawyer with a string of high-profile clients -- including John
DeLorean, whose trail he won, and Kim Basinger, whose Boxing Helena
contract dispute he lost. (Also, for a short time this June, Weitzman
was O.J. Simpson's attorney.) Some predicted a problem between the two
lawyers early on. There wasn't room for two strong attorneys used to
running their own show.
From the day Weitzman joined Jackson's defense team, "he was talking
settlement," says Bonnie Ezkenazi, an attorney who worked for the
defense. With Fields and Pellicano still in control of Jackson's
defense, they adopted an aggressive strategy. They believed staunchly
in Jackson's innocence and vowed to fight the charges in court.
Pellicano began gathering evidence to use in the trial, which was
scheduled for March 21, 1994. "They had a very weak case," says
Fields. "We wanted to fight. Michael wanted to fight and go through a
trial. We felt we could win."
Dissension within the Jackson camp accelerated on November 12, after
Jackson's publicist announced at a press conference that the singer
was canceling the remainder of his world tour to go into a
drug-rehabilitation program to treat his addiction to painkillers.
Fields later told reporters that Jackson was "barely able to function
adequately on an intellectual level." Others in Jackson's camp felt it
was a mistake to portray the singer as incompetent. "It was
important," Fields says, "to tell the truth. [Larry] Feldman and the
press took the position that Michael was trying to hide and that it
was all a scam. But it wasn't."
On November 23, the friction peaked. Based on information he says he
got from Weitzman, Fields told a courtroom full of reporters that a
criminal indictment against Jackson seemed imminent. Fields had a
reason for making the statement: He was trying to delay the boy's
civil suit by establishing that there was an impending criminal case
that should be tried first. Outside the courtroom, reporters asked why
Fields had made the announcement, to which Weitzman replied
essentially that Fields "misspoke himself." The comment infuriated
Fields, "because it wasn't true," he says. "It was just an outrage. I
was very upset with Howard." Fields sent a letter of resignation to
Jackson the following week.
"There was this vast group of people all wanting to do a different
thing, and it was like moving through molasses to get a decision,"
says Fields. "It was a nightmare, and I wanted to get the hell out of
it." Pellicano, who had received his share of flak for his aggressive
manner, resigned at the same time.
With Fields and Pellicano gone, Weitzman brought in Johnnie Cochran
Jr., a well-known civil attorney who is now helping defend O.J.
Simpson. And John Branca, whom Fields had replaced as Jackson's
general counsel in 1990, was back on board. In late 1993, as DAs in
both Santa Barbara and Los Angeles counties convened grand juries to
assess whether criminal charges should be filed against Jackson, the
defense strategy changed course and talk of settling the civil case
began in earnest, even though his new team also believed in Jackson's
innocence.
Why would Jackson's side agree to settle out of court, given his
claims of innocence and the questionable evidence against him? His
attorneys apparently decided there were many factors that argued
against taking the case to civil court. Among them was the fact that
Jackson's emotional fragility would be tested by the oppressive media
coverage that would likely plague the singer day after day during a
trial that could last as long as six months. Politics and racial
issues had also seeped into legal proceedings -- particularly in Los
Angeles, which was still recovering from the Rodney King ordeal -- and
the defense feared that a court of law could not be counted on to
deliver justice. Then, too, there was the jury mix to consider. As one
attorney says, "They figured that Hispanics might resent [Jackson] for
his money, blacks might resent him for trying to be white, and whites
would have trouble getting around the molestation issue." In Resnick's
opinion, "The hysteria is so great and the stigma [of child
molestation] is so strong, there is no defense against it."
Jackson's lawyers also worried about what might happen if a criminal
trial followed, particularly in Santa Barbara, which is a largely
white, conservative, middle-to-upper-class community. Any way the
defense looked at it, a civil trial seemed too big a gamble. By
meeting the terms of a civil settlement, sources say, the lawyers
figured they could forestall a criminal trial through a tacit
understanding that Chandler would agree to make his son unavailable to
testify.
Others close to the case say the decision to settle also probably had
to do with another factor -- the lawyers' reputations. "Can you
imagine what would happen to an attorney who lost the Michael Jackson
case?" says Anthony Pellicano. "There's no way for all three lawyers
to come out winners unless they settle. The only person who lost is
Michael Jackson." But Jackson, says Branca, "changed his mind about
[taking the case to trial] when he returned to this country. He hadn't
seen the massive coverage and how hostile it was. He just wanted the
whole thing to go away."
On the other side, relationships among members of the boy's family had
become bitter. During a meeting in Larry Feldman's office in late
1993, Chandler, a source says, "completely lost it and beat up Dave
[Schwartz]." Schwartz, having separated from June by this time, was
getting pushed out of making decisions that affected his stepson, and
he resented Chandler for taking the boy and not returning him.
"Dave got mad and told Evan this was all about extortion, anyway, at
which point Evan stood up, walked over and started hitting Dave," a
second source says.
To anyone who lived in Los Angeles in January 1994, there were two
main topics of discussion -- the earthquake and the Jackson
settlement. On January 25, Jackson agreed to pay the boy an
undisclosed sum. The day before, Jackson's attorneys had withdrawn the
extortion charges against Chandler and Rothman.
The actual amount of the settlement has never been revealed, although
speculation has placed the sum around $20 million. One source says
Chandler and June Chandler Schwartz received up to $2 million each,
while attorney Feldman might have gotten up to 25 percent in
contingency fees. The rest of the money is being held in trust for the
boy and will be paid out under the supervision of a court-appointed
trustee.
"Remember, this case was always about money," Pellicano says, "and
Evan Chandler wound up getting what he wanted." Since Chandler still
has custody of his son, sources contend that logically this means the
father has access to any money his son gets.
By late May 1994, Chandler finally appeared to be out of dentistry.
He'd closed down his Beverly Hills office, citing ongoing harassment
from Jackson supporters. Under the terms of the settlement, Chandler
is apparently prohibited from writing about the affair, but his
brother, Ray Charmatz, was reportedly trying to get a book deal.
In what may turn out to be the never-ending case, this past August,
both Barry Rothman and Dave Schwartz (two principal players left out
of the settlement) filed civil suits against Jackson. Schwartz
maintains that the singer broke up his family. Rothman's lawsuit
claims defamation and slander on the part of Jackson, as well as his
original defense team -- Fields, Pellicano and Weitzman -- for the
allegations of extortion. "The charge of [extortion]," says Rothman
attorney Aitken, "is totally untrue. Mr. Rothman has been held up for
public ridicule, was the subject of a criminal investigation and
suffered loss of income." (Presumably, some of Rothman's lost income
is the hefty fee he would have received had he been able to continue
as Chandler's attorney through the settlement phase.)
As for Michael Jackson, "he is getting on with his life," says
publicist Michael Levine. Now married, Jackson also recently recorded
three new songs for a greatest-hits album and completed a new music
video called "History."
And what became of the massive investigation of Jackson? After
millions of dollars were spent by prosecutors and police departments
in two jurisdictions, and after two grand juries questioned close to
200 witnesses, including 30 children who knew Jackson, not a single
corroborating witness could be found. (In June 1994, still determined
to find even one corroborating witness, three prosecutors and two
police detectives flew to Australia to again question Wade Robson, the
boy who had acknowledged that he'd slept in the same bed with Jackson.
Once again, the boy said that nothing bad had happened.)
The sole allegations leveled against Jackson, then, remain those made
by one youth, and only after the boy had been give a potent hypnotic
drug, leaving him susceptible to the power of suggestion.
"I found the case suspicious," says Dr. Underwager, the Minneapolis
psychiatrist, "precisely because the only evidence came from one boy.
That would be highly unlikely. Actual pedophiles have an average of
240 victims in their lifetime. It's a progressive disorder. They're
never satisfied."
Given the slim evidence against Jackson, it seems unlikely he would
have been found guilty had the case gone to trial. But in the court of
public opinion, there are no restrictions. People are free to
speculate as they wish, and Jackson's eccentricity leaves him
vulnerable to the likelihood that the public has assumed the worst
about him.
So is it possible that Jackson committed no crime -- that he is what
he has always purported to be, a protector and not a molester of
children? Attorney Michael Freeman thinks so: "It's my feeling that
Jackson did nothing wrong and these people [Chandler and Rothman] saw
an opportunity and programmed it. I believe it was all about money."
To some observers, the Michael Jackson story illustrates the dangerous
power of accusation, against which there is often no defense --
particularly when the accusations involve child sexual abuse. To
others, something else is clear now -- that police and prosecutors
spent millions of dollars to create a case whose foundation never
existed.
Mary A Fischer is a GQ senior writer based in Los Angeles. |
arkeni
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:01 am: |
|
JUDGE DISMISSES GUARDS' CASE AGAINST MICHAEL JACKSON
Dateline: Los Angeles Word Count: 0189
The Associated Press Date: July 22, 1995
A lawsuit by four ex-guards who claim Michael Jackson fired them
because they knew about his alleged trysts was thrown out of court on
Friday.
The men sued in 1993 despite the fact they had signed a release after
they were fired in which they promised not to.
They claimed the release was invalid because they signed it under
duress, but Superior Court Judge Richard C. Neal dismissed the case.
The guards' lawyer, Charles T. Mathews, said he would appeal.
''If we'd been able to get to a jury, I'm quite confident they'd find
the charges we alleged were true,'' Mathews said. Jackson's lawyer
disagreed.
''Michael has said from day one he never did anything inappropriate
with any minors,'' Howard Weitzman said. ''This was (the guards') way
of getting their 15 minutes in the limelight.''
Jackson settled a sex abuse lawsuit filed by a 13-year-old boy in
1994, reportedly for as much as $15 million. No charges were filed.
Jackson denied wrongdoing and called the boy's claim an extortion
attempt.
JUDGE DISMISSES CASE AGAINST MICHAEL JACKSON
North American News Report DATE: July 21, 1995 18:06 E.T.
LOS ANGELES (Reuter) - A judge Friday threw out a a lawsuit against
Michael Jackson by five of his former security guards who said they
were fired for knowing too much about nighttime visits with young
boys.
After a three-day trial, Los Angeles Superior Court Judge Richard Neal
dismissed the case on the grounds that all the guards had signed
releases providing for severance pay when they left Jackson.
''Michael Jackson is thankful for the court's ruling,'' Jackson's
attorney Howard Weitzman said in a statement.
''He has consistently maintained that he has not engaged in wrongful
conduct with any minors. The stories told by these guards on various
tabloid shows, for which they were paid, were false.'' The security
guards had brought the case against Jackson in 1993, alleging they
were spied on and harassed by a private investigator hired by the pop
superstar to impede the investigation into charges he sexually
molested young boys.
At the time, Jackson was being sued by a 13-year-old boy who charged
the singer had molested him, and was also under criminal
investigation. Jackson denied the allegations of the boy, whose family
later settled the lawsuit for millions of dollars, and prosecutors
decided not to pursue the charges.
The security guards had alleged they had firsthand knowledge of
Jackson's personal life, and had witnessed him fondling young boys and
keeping them in his bedroom for days at a time.
They also alleged Jackson attempted to discredit potential witnesses
and destroy incriminating evidence, at one point instructing one guard
to retrieve a photo of a naked boy left in the singer's bathroom.
Jackson maintained that the dismissal of the guards was related to a
decision to hire an independent security firm rather than employ
guards on an individual basis.
THE END
From: www.mjnewsonline.com - The Very Latest Michael Jackson News
|
Arkeni
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:06 am: |
|
MJEOL BULLET : Pt 4: 1993 Investigation Not a Problem for Defense? – MB #254
Posted by admin on 2005/4/4 2:34:09 (559 reads)
Pt 4: 1993 Investigation Not a Problem for Defense? – MJEOL Bullet #254
Tabloid reporter Diane Dimond’s “suspicious” involvement with current and past allegations has drawn the attention of many people
Part 4 | Part 3 | Part 2| Part 1
APRIL 4 2005 – Part 3 of this special MJEOL Bullet discussed a number of issues including the prosecution’s relentless search for phantom “victims” of Michael Jackson.
Not one to let a tabloid story go unchecked, the prosecution seems absolutely beyond desperate to bring in every piece of unconfirmed and un-cross-examined garbage they can find; attempting to kick up enough dust wishing that the jury can’t see through it.
Never mind that the therapist who talked to this accuser, Stan Katz, was also involved in the notorious McMartin Preschool case that quickly became a witch-hunt (see article). Never mind that the prosecution’s witnesses-come-lately have almost no credibility even before the defense has asked them one question. Never mind the cozy relationships between William Dickerman, Larry Feldman and Stan Katz.
Throughout all of nonsense, there remains at least one person of the media, allegedly on the outside looking in, who appears to be too close for comfort. This person was a fixture in the media around the first allegation back in 1993, and emerged from obscurity riding the tabloid-Jackson gravy train. And to obscurity she may return when all is said and done.
When tabloid reporter Diane Dimond isn’t lying in wait for her next “scoop” from her “highly placed sources”, she seems to be actually going out to actively help the prosecution shore up their “case” against Jackson.
Some say her meddling is certainly not a lofty journalistic act in service of the greater good, but rather, her trying to protect future book earnings. She, and the other ‘sentinels’ (think Matrix Revolutions) stand to make more money if they can get – or help the prosecution get – a conviction against Jackson; truth be damned.
I guess someone should have told them that Jackson’s innocence does not rest with one-sided presentations, or unfounded tabloid stories, or proven liars, or bitter ex-employees who had to file for bankruptcy after they sued (and were sued by) Jackson and lost.
Most people first became familiar with Dimond on the now defunct tabloid TV show Hard Copy. That show never met a nut they didn’t like and provided a platform for every crackpot, hack, ex-employee, and money-grubbing shyster around the Jackson investigation in 1993. The more sordid the tale, the higher the paycheck. Just as the Quindoys. Anyway, back to the issue at hand.
It is Dimond’s….uh….closeness to both the prosecution and law enforcement of Santa Barbara County that has raised more than a few disapproving eyebrows. A whisper, a phone call, a few drinks, a kiss on the lips in the parking lot after court with a former law enforcement official….hey, it’s called networking….or keeping in touch with your “sources”.
__Dirty Dimond?__
Seemingly, the prosecution’s favorite reporter has incredibly suspicious involvement with these allegations. Possibly attempting to further her career – which doesn’t seem to exist to any high-profile extent sans Jackson -- some observers call it “obvious” that she has been too close to these types of allegations for too long.
And that this closeness could come back to bite her in the ass…and whatever “source” is unlucky enough to be attached to her at that time.
Dimond is reported to be the one who broke the 1993 story. Well, not exactly. She’s just one of the most visible to glom onto it and ride it to her personal type of “fame”. “Fame” that she can’t seem to keep without a negative Jackson story.
She is not alone, but her overreaching in trying to bring allegations against Jackson to fruition is long past gone over the line. With a non-existent stream of garbage and wild tales of what “former employees” had to tell, true or not, Dimond became the go-to person for Jackson stories on the tabloid show Hard Copy back around the 1993 investigation.
Recent reports have started to look into Dimond’s…..“close” relationship with the DA and law enforcement both then and now.
Dimond, who has been sued by Jackson before, doesn’t seem to have any business giving allegedly “unbiased” reports about this “case” in the first place. But there she is on Court TV pushing the DA’s arguments and doing her best to explain away why their allegations simply don’t add up.
Who can forget her going on Larry King Live talking about what turned out to be non-existent stack of “explicit love letters” allegedly written from Jackson to the accuser. Her “sources” told her that was one of the things the prosecution was looking for when they raided Neverland Nov 18 2003.
Nancy Grace, who also appeared on that show, of course didn’t question Dimond’s reporting at all and just lapped the false information up like a dog. As did a few other people.
Her comments on Larry King Nov 24 2003 came off as if she was stating this as a fact. From a transcript of that show:
DIMOND:….He[Jackson] remembered love letters -- that's how they're described, love letters -- that he had written to this 12-year-old boy that were in the boy's home. At the time, the boy, the mother, the family was up at Neverland. Someone somehow was dispatched, I'm told, by the Michael Jackson camp down to their Los Angeles-area apartment, and suddenly, those letters disappeared.
KING: Could that have been this...
DIMOND: That's what Mr. Sneddon and the sheriff were looking for when they went into Neverland, that stack of love letters.
(see Larry King Live: Dimond talk about " love letters " (Nov 24 2003))
And she didn’t stop there. The intent seemed to be to spread this story even though she had absolutely no evidence of its truthfulness. Continued from the official transcript of that show:
KING: Wait a minute! Hold it!
NANCY GRACE: ... love letters to a 10-year-old boy...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Do we -- hold it! Does anyone here -- does anyone here -- anyone -- know of the existence of these letters?
JOHNNIE COCHRAN: I don't. I mean, I think that's...
DIMOND: Absolutely. I do.
COCHRAN: ... again, speculation.
DIMOND: I do!
COCHRAN: I don't know of this.
KING: Hold it!
COCHRAN: I've never seen them. The only...
DIMOND: I absolutely know of their existence!
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Diane, have you read them?
DIMOND: No, I have not read them, but I absolutely know that that...
COCHRAN: So how do we know?
DIMOND: ... was tops on the list of the DA and sheriff's department, things to look for inside Neverland. Listen, Larry...
KING: But you don't know what they say.
DIMOND: ... these are letters that are written in Michael Jackson's hand. They are said to be -- no, I've not read them, but...
KING: OK. Well, then...
DIMOND: ... they -- they went after them because they're said to be so sensational and so salacious in nature...
KING: Yes, but how...
DIMOND: ... that this could be a key to the prosecution...
KING: I see. Now, let me...
DIMOND: ... if and when this goes to trial.
(see Larry King Live: Dimond talk about " love letters " (Nov 24 2003))
So, she never saw them and never read them, but claimed on live television to KNOW for a fact that they exist. Well another reporter at Fox news did a little digging of his own and found out that this “explicit love letters” story may have originated in a London tabloid by way of “law enforcement sources” feeding them false information.
Or worse, the accusing family could have made that story up to, thereby sending the prosecution on yet another wild goose chase.
But the point is that she was pushing this story heavily at the time. And it turned out to be false. Why the need to push this story at that time? Why the need to absolutely convince people that the story was true? This same behavior got her into financial trouble with Jackson in the past. More on that later.
The NY Daily News started to delve into Dimond’s relationship with her “sources”. In a report dated March 14 2005, titled “Did Jax reporter brief DA?”, they spell out some of her recent involvement with this current case; specifically her helping the prosecution search for alleged “evidence”.
Another example is Dimond meeting with Henry Vaccaro – another person being sued by Jackson – at his memorabilia collection. For the record Vaccaro was only allowed to sell things belonging to other family members, not materials belonging to either Michael or Janet Jackson. He did so, and that’s why he’s getting sued.
Among those materials was a pair of unidentified, old underwear. They had no way of even knowing if these draws belonged to Jackson. But that didn’t stop Dimond’s mind from immediately going there.
She reportedly alerted the Santa Barbara authorities. From that NY Daily News report:
The morning after Dimond's visit, Vaccaro told me yesterday, Sneddon personally phoned Vaccaro, said that Dimond had informed his office about the underwear and other potential evidence, and asked to borrow the items for use in the investigation.
(see Did Jax reporter brief DA? - NY Daily News)
Journalistic ethics professor Tom Rosenstiel was asked about such involvement and his comments were published in the article. From the report:
Yesterday, journalistic ethics expert Tom Rosenstiel, director of the Pew Research Center for Excellence in Journalist, told me: "The standard is that journalists should try to avoid becoming an extension of law enforcement or any government agency."
If Dimond did so, "that would be very unusual," Rosenstiel added.
In her Court TV report last March on Vaccaro's collection, Dimond is shown daintily lifting the soiled briefs and speculating that they might contain "DNA evidence." When the camera was turned off, Vaccaro recalled, "she told me she was going to call the prosecutor about this."
(see Did Jax reporter brief DA? - NY Daily News)
One wonders what Tom Rosenstiel would have to say about another incident where Sneddon was instrumental in helping her get out of a vicious slander lawsuit filed against her and others by Jackson.
Again, the NY Daily News detailed Sneddon’s involvement in a March 16 2005 article titled “DA helped Dimond out of a 'Hard' spot”.
The back-story: Dimond publicly reported on her tabloid Hard Copy show and to KABC radio, around that 1993 investigation, about a non-existent tape of Jackson allegedly molesting a kid. She claimed Sneddon was searching for that tape. She, too, claimed to know of the tape’s existence.
Of course there was no such tape, and an unbelievably furious Jackson sued the hell out of her and Hard Copy for that malicious reporting. To help Dimond get out of that lawsuit, however, Sneddon filed a Declaration in support of Dimond. From the NY Daily News report:
Sneddon soon concluded that no such video existed, but not before Dimond appeared on L.A.'s KABC radio and her Paramount-produced tabloid show to trumpet the imagined X-rated details.
…Sneddon, in an unusual instance of a prosecutor involving himself in a civil suit, signed a declaration supporting Dimond's version of events. The trial judge dismissed the suit, saying Jackson couldn't prove malice or false reporting.
(see DA helped Dimond out of a 'Hard' spot)
This is simply TOO close for comfort. Thus, everything she says – every report where she’s damn near kissing the prosecution’s ass – is tainted. How does the public know emphatically whether she’s telling an unbiased truth or whether she’s looking out for the person that seemingly helped her get out of an enormous financial jam with Jackson in the past?
According to sources, one of the other ways Hard Copy and Dimond got off was to give up the source of that vicious videotape rumor: Victor Gutierrez. Gutierrez, himself, was successfully sued by Jackson. But instead of paying the $2 million+ in damages the jury awarded Jackson in that slander lawsuit, Gutierrez fled the country (see Michael Jackson's Victory (April 10 1998)).
If you think the journalistic ethics were tested in that reporting, wait until you find out what she did after the 1993 investigation.
Dimond flew to Canada in search of another accuser. An accuser who turned out to be an impeccable liar and was being fed very detailed information from a reportedly obsessed Jackson “nut”.
She does have a well-documented history for seeking out alleged “victims” of Michael Jackson. When she was still working with the tabloid show Hard Copy, Dimond was chasing that story, and it completely blew up in her face.
There was a “street kid” in Canada claiming to have been “molested” by Jackson sometime after the 1993 investigation. Instead of going to the police, his alleged guardian, reported to be Rodney Allen, wrote a letter to Dimond.
Dimond flew all the way to Toronto to get this kid’s very elaborate, very detailed and highly researched story on camera. Like the current family now, he too claimed he only wanted “justice.”
Dimond, of course, took the bait. It was only after she got his “confessions” on camera that she personally took him to the authorities herself so he could “tell his story”. I kid you not. It’s all documented in the report aired on Hard Copy.
Rodney Allen, the alleged “guardian”, admitted on camera he fed the information to the kid, who lied over and over again to both Dimond and the authorities at first. Sound familiar?
After the kid was questioned for hours by the Toronto and Santa Barbara police --away from Allen and not solely by the Santa Barbara sheriffs-- he finally admitted he lied about the entire situation from beginning to end. The following is an excerpt from that stunning report:
(begin videotape)
Diane Dimond, Hard Copy: I care about this one kid who gave me all sorts of information about Neverland, about Havenhurst, about Disneyland, about Michael Jackson’s body. Where did he get all that information?
Allen: He got it from me.
Dimond: You planted all this stuff in this kid’s head?
Allen: I didn’t plant it in his head. He was asking questions. I answered them the best I can. I told him what I could tell him about the place because I want Michael to face it.
Dimond: So this kid is an A-1, number one liar?
Allen: Professional.
(end videotape)
Dimond voiceover: The whole story was a scam. A Toronto street kid meets a man obsessed with the Michael Jackson case, and the results could have been an international scandal.
Meanwhile, back at the police station the boy finally broke down. He admitted that he and Rodney Allen had made up the whole story.
(begin videotape)
Dimond: The young boy was lying?
Det. Darryl Campbell: That’s my belief. And as a result of that, he was charged, yes.
Dimond: Can you tell us what he was charged with?
Campbell: Public mischief.
(end videotape)
Dimond: Well the boy is still in custody tonight. And police continue their investigation of Mr. Rodney Allen.
(see http://www.cmjfc.ca/scam.rm | or | http://site.mjeol.com/dimondscam.rm)
Now, think about the 1993 allegation and see if this doesn’t sound familiar: an adult feeding very specific lies to a kid to make allegations against Jackson to either get back at him or to get into his pockets. Uh huh.
And in the mix is Dimond. In what appeared to be an effort to save face, she may have pretended to be a victim as well in that entire scam when she turned in her report to Hard Copy.
But her involvement in actively seeking out and trying to bring about allegations against Jackson is simply creepy beyond belief and, some say, incredibly unethical.
Again, you don’t have to take my word for it. See for yourself:
>> http://www.cmjfc.ca/scam.rm
Oh, but the questions don’t stop there. As reported in MJEOL Bullet #141, Dimond was also…..uh….. “lucky” enough to be at Neverland laying in wait for the police to raid Jackson’s Neverland ranch.
The Associated Press’s David Bauder reported that Dimond told Henry Schleiff, CEO of Court TV, that she was “working on a great story” and asked him to provide “money and manpower to help dig it out” (Bauder article). “Dig it out”, indeed.
In an article from The HollywoodReporter.com, dated Nov 20 2003, Andrew Wallenstein reported that Dimond was the first to report news of the raid. In fact, she was the first reporter at Neverland even before the police made it there; with her camera crew to catch the scene. The report states:
Dimond flew from New York to Santa Barbara on Tuesday [Nov 18 2003], arriving at 2 a.m., enough time to get three hours of sleep and have one of her two camera crews stationed at Neverland when the police arrived at 6 a.m. She was at the local police station with the other crew when the raid commenced just in case Jackson was arrested, but she soon sped back over to Neverland.
(see Court TV coup: Dimond lands another scoop )
Not only was she apparently tipped off by someone in either the district attorney’s office or the sheriff’s department, but she was given so much specific information that she executed a plan to have two camera crews ready: one to catch the raid at Neverland, and another for when Jackson was supposed to be arrested and taken to the police station.
No one in the media has publicly asked one question about how she knew to be there at that time, who gave her this information, and for what purpose was it given to her. Matt Drudge would probably call this a “weird merger of government and media” (see Drudge Report: Blasts Sneddon March 6 2005).
Dimond has also been spreading false information about the 1993 settlement agreement, which was illegally leaked to her. When she got her hands on it, it was a court sealed document that some “source” leaked to her. Hum…I wonder who?
She continues to claim that Jackson admitted to some form of illicit touching in that agreement, which is both ridiculous and wrong. Not to mention that would be an illegal obstruction of justice. But instead of questioning Dimond’s report, some who don’t know any better have accepted her bogus information.
Jackson attorney Tom Mesereau actually addressed this issue when the prosecution ran their asses to the judge trying to get Jackson cited for breaking the gag order last year. From the transcript of that hearing:
There was never any admission by Mr. Jackson that he ever did anything negligent or anything wrong at all.
There was public comment in the media, again, about this 11-year-old case to the effect that somehow he admitted negligence, which was completely false. It was a technical legal way of settling a case so insurance companies could fund a settlement and he could get on with his personal life and his business life.
(see 1993 : Excerpts From the Transcript of the July 9, 2004 Hearing)
One of the prosecution’s witnesses around that 1993 investigation, Blanca Fancia, was interviewed by Dimond in that now infamous Hard Copy interview for which Francia was reportedly paid $20,000. Dimond has publicly tried to distance herself from who was paid for which interview. But the stench is still there.
Francia was later caught in a deposition retracting what she told Dimond during that interview. That deposition was cited by Mesereau during the 1108 hearing.
And if all of this wasn’t ridiculous enough, the rag reporter reportedly has either been shopping a book around or already has a book deal. MTV News actually quoted excerpts from the alleged proposal; completely with more disgusting and as yet unfounded garbage (see Dimond Shopping a Jackson book around (Jan 12 04) - MTV ).
__Wrap up__
With that said, why do some reporters think the defense is worried about whatever the ’93 accuser would say in court? Jackson has been very good at keeping a lid on whatever exonerating information they found back during the 1993 investigation.
Thus, prosecutors will have no chance of changing their “case” to nullify Jackson’s exonerating material like they attempted to do with this 2003 “case”. Remember the changing charges? Changing number of counts? Changing timeline?
Some observers argue if the ’93 accuser continues to assert that Jackson did any wrongdoing, the defense may seriously want to cross-examine him themselves anyway. If they dispose of the claims of 1993 and show that accuser is/was lying, it would have a crippling affect on the prosecution.
Others, however, have suggested an entirely different scenario. They assert that prosecutors may not be able to get the ’93 accuser to cooperate with this “case” because he, an adult now, is no longer going along with the plan to falsely accuse Jackson. Intriguing concept.
They say this may be the ultimate reason why prosecutors couldn’t get him to testify in front of the grand jury earlier this year, nor involved in any other aspect of this current “case”.
This type of outcome certainly isn’t uncommon. Recently in an unrelated case, four children—now grown men—admitted they were never molested by a man named John Stoll. Stoll spent 20 years in prison based on the false accusations of those children coupled with alleged massive misconduct of police and prosecutors in Stoll’s case.
The young men grew up and finally had to admit they lied under oath as children because of threats, lies, and badgering by police and prosecutors. They testified at a hearing in support of Stoll and told the truth of what happened.
Not that Jackson’s “case” and Stoll’s case are comparable in any way other than false allegations, but it would be interesting to hear what the ’93 accuser has to say.
One could bet that the media, the public and the prosecution would have a collective nervous breakdown if the ’93 accuser ended up being a witness for Jackson’s defense in this current “case”. Or if attorneys show that Jackson was in fact innocent in 1993 through his cross-examination.
By all accounts, Jackson’s attorneys—outside of making sure prosecutors follow the law—seem ready for whatever prosecutors think they have from 1993…if anything at all…and possibly a whole lot more evidence of extortion and exculpatory value than the public has yet seen.
Stay tuned.
-MJEOL
Newfeeds
/
More info
Innocence
|
Arkeni
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:07 am: |
|
Michael Jackson: Why We Love the Brotha
Posted: February 29 2004 8:00PM
There has been much talk about Michael Jackson: who he is, his mindset, how he thinks, etc. But it's time to have a serious discussion about why we love the brotha. The major reasons for that love are his depth of thought, his unflinching ability to be himself in the face of every nonsensical attempt to change him and his survivor mentality. And, dear reader, don't dare attempt to dismiss the following points by claiming they are coming from "some crazed fan". Truth be told, I couldn't care less how you feel about me. If you want to argue, argue over the points being made not the person making them.
Had anything remotely like this happened to me-although I doubt it because females don't seem to have the burden than men do and had this been Janet Jackson instead of Michael Jackson, it wouldn't even be an issue-I would say to hell with all of these lying losers and their dying children too. If you responded with silent outrage while reading that line, you better pray that Jackson is a much better person than I am. But that's why we love the brotha.
This brotha is so deep that he would take on all of society's insanely disgusting fears of what's appropriate and inappropriate if that means he can positively affect a child's life; give a child some time where they don't have to see their parents crying over their beds in a hospital room; time when they don't
have to worry about how their parents will be able to pay their bills; time when they can see beautiful things and be amazed by how wonderful life is; time when they can be treated with the kind of love they deserve. If you wanted to know why he STILL would let children stay at his house even after the 1993 set-up, this could be one possible reason.
What someone should do is impress upon the brotha not to hesitate in calling people out on their bull*hit. It's ok to challenge someone who is questioning his honesty, his words, and his actions. It's ok if everyone doesn't have a profound understanding of what he's trying to accomplish so long as they respect his right to do so. It's ok if people don't feel "sorry for" him either because of their own hang-ups, or because they thought he was suppose to be psychic and see this coming, or because they simply don't get it, or because they secretly feel guilty by not reaching out to him before.
This brotha is on a level that many people can't even fathom. I'm not talking about economically, although he is. I'm not talking about socially, although he is as well. I'm speaking about the unbelievable level of love, respect, and understanding he has for humanity; in particular, our collective selves before we have our goodness ruined by corrupt adult society. That time is called childhood. The
charge by some is that he needs to "grow up". Mind you, this misplaced criticism is about someone who has had to be, essentially, a grown-ass man since the age of 6. He's been grown since before he was grown. It is not he that needs to grow up. It is we who need to get out of that high school-like mentality where one has to "fit in" or else be relegated to the "geeks, nerds and losers" section of society.
It's not even that he needs to change what he is in order to fit into some schizophrenic definition of what's "appropriate" and what's not, what's "black" and what's not, or what's "popular" and what's not. It is the coexistence of disparate AND antagonistic mores in society that makes his very existent so absolutely necessary.
It may not even be that he needs to be more aware of when people are trying to take advantage of him.
He may know when people are trying to use him. He just may be hoping somehow that their conscience would kick it and make it impossible for them to take advantage of him, or that they'll use the opportunity to change their behavior.
I respect him because he has actually bought into all of the things we love to preach about, but never follow ourselves: "Be loving to one another", "be affectionate and caring for those who need you", "Honor your children because they are our future", "Respect the beauty
of childhood for it is fleeting", "Give of your best at all times", "If someone stays with you, give them your best as if giving them the very bed on which you sleep or the clothes off your back", "If someone comes under your roof, they are to be protected and respected at all costs", ETC. These are things we all love to espouse…in theory.
But when it comes to putting the money where the mouth is, society's actions read more like "Take what you can get", "Look out for #1", "Do onto others before they can do onto you", "Your best isn't good enough", "Show a child who's boss", "Childhood is only something to be tolerated, not cherished", "If someone stays with you, make sure you check their bag before they leave because they've probably stolen something", "Don't let people in your house because they'll have your business all out in the street", ETC. Is that behavior schizophrenic or is it "survival"? Regardless of the answer, one is not meant to only "survive" but to thrive as a part of a community.
It's idiotic to think that this brotha should not be able to be who he is and change the lives of people just because we may not understand the level he's on. Whether our collective mindset "gets it" or not, we should realize that he's not owned by anyone. He is not to be beholden to anyone but God. He's not owned by a corporation. Symbolically, he's not "Toby" (Jacko), he's Kunta Kinte (Michael Jackson).
In trying to squash him, those very people are helping/forcing him to become the exact thing they were so afraid he'd become: a powerful, successful, wholly independent entity onto himself not controlled by any hierarchy, who follows the laws of the land but who isn't afraid to call society out on it's stupidity and hypocrisy, and who is unashamed of his past and who he is.
To be "bad" by this brotha's definition, is not to take anyone's mess; to be secure in oneself and one's ideals. And it is those ideals that have helped shape him in my opinion. These same ideals are what all the rest of us have had thoroughly and soundly beat out of us as we've grown up in "normal" society. He has managed somehow to sustain that level of basic goodness which should guarantee that his life is peaceful and filled with love, right? Wrong.
Our society says a grown man can't possibly sleep in the same "bedroom" as a child without it being sexual. Let's break that down. When I posed the question to a regular 42 year old man, who has gone on record insulting Jackson, whether it was possible that he, himself could simply sleep in the same bedroom with a child without wanting to sexually molest him/her, that person exclaimed with insulted outrage "Of course! I ain't no damn child molester!" Without realizing it, he just said exactly what Jackson has said.
Jackson has said during the 60 Minutes interview that "if you're going to be a child molester, if you're going to be Jack the Ripper" one should NOT be sleeping anywhere near a child. Jackson is neither a child molester nor Jack the Ripper. Neither is the 42 year old man to which I posed the question. They're on the same side. But of course, the "boogy-man" syndrome is pervasive in this society and in Mr. 42-year-old-Normal-Guy's head. And someone like Jackson, even with all his idealistic and basic goodness, is forced into that boogy-man category by those who make themselves feel better by reveling in his tribulations.
Maybe if this brotha started to defend himself in an insulted and outraged manner, people would start to "get it". It is asinine to think that "we" (collective society) can sleep in the same room with a kid without it being sexual, but Jackson can't; that he can't possible feel that form of insulted outrage when "we" attack him for his so-called "inappropriate behavior"; that he can't possibly have the same visceral reaction when the question is posed to him.
It is that unflinching ability to be himself that has helped to get him this far. So why, then, is it not ok for this brotha to live his life without running his decisions by "us" first? No one can satisfactorily answer that question.
This brotha has to go through hell and back just to get some form of respect; just to get some of society to ask the question whether or not he's being made to struggle unjustly. He has to go to hell and back just to get people to question whether or not his way is the right way, and our way is the corrupt way. He has to go to hell and back just to shake some sense into "us"; to wake "us" up from this 'do it my way or you're crazy' type of selfishness inherent in "us" all. It is this feigned moral superiority in having a "normal" life that seems to keep tripping him up as he repeatedly attempts to pull some form of that normality into his existence.
So my advice to him as a member of "normal" society: Brotha you ain't missing nothin' here. I'm still trying to pull some form of your idealistic existence into my own. And so much the better I would be because of it.
|
Arkeni
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:11 am: |
|
1 SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA
2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES
3
4 DAVID SCHWARTZ, AN INDIVIDUAL, )
5 PLAINTIFF, ) CASE NO.
6 VS. ) SC 031 774
7 EVAN CHANDLER, AN INDIVIDUAL, AND )
8 DOES 1 THROUGH 50, INCLUSIVE, )
9 DEFENDANTS. )
10 ----------------------------------------------------------- )
11
12
13
14 TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO CASSETTE MARKED
15 EXHIBIT NO. 10
16 D. SCHWARTZ AND E. CHANDLER
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 FILE NO. TPA81793.MK
1
1 I N D E X
2 CONVERSATION BETWEEN: PAGE
3 1 DAVE SCHWARTZ AND EVAN CHANDLER 4
4 2 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 37
5 3 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 41
6 4 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 43
7 5 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 45
8 6 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 49
9 7 SALESMAN AND MAN; and
10 DAVID SCHWARTZ AND MAN 51
11 8 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 57
12 9 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 61
13 10 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 63
14 11 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 64
15 12 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 68
16 13 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 71
17 14 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 72
18 15 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 76
19 16 WOMAND FRIEND 78
20 17 WOMAN AND MOTHER AND CUSTOMER 80
21 18 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMERS 1 AND 2 99
22 19 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 103
23 20 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 107
24 21 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 109
25 22 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 110
2
1 I N D E X (CONTINUED)
2 CONVERSATION BETWEEN: PAGE
3 23 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 113
4 24 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 116
5 25 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 118
6 26 SALESMAN AND CUSTOMER 119
7 27 SALESMAN AND RESTAURANT MAN 122
8 28 SALESMAN AND (NO RESPONSE) 123
9 29 SALESMAN AND BETH MEYER 124
10 30 DAVE SCHWARTZ AND EVAN CHANDLER 126
11 31 DAVE SCHWARTZ AND EVAN CHANDLER 149
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
3
1 CONVERSATION 1
2 between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:
3
4 MR. CHANDLER: -- discuss why it might
5 be harmful.
6 Suppose I'm right? I mean if Michael
7 loves [tape irregularity] Lisa at least want to
8 hear my opinion about why what's going on could be
9 potentially harmful? If you love somebody, you
10 don't want them to get hurt.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want to talk it
12 in front of Jordy, about that?
13 MR. CHANDLER: Huh?
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want to talk
15 about that in front of Jordy?
16 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
17 He has to be there.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: He has to be there, and
20 one of the reasons that he has to be there is
21 because he's always gonna remember it. Somebody
22 has to be the -- there's gotta be some one person
23 that later on in life he can look back on and kind
24 of pattern himself after someone or have some
25 structure for his own existence, based on -- he'll
4
1 look at me, and he'll say, "Yeah. He was honest,
2 he had integrity, he had respect. I could trust
3 him. He never lied to me," all that kind of stuff.
4 He may hate me now. He may not be able
5 to articulate all of those things in his own head
6 right now, but when he sees it, it'll be in his
7 head, and when he's old enough there will be those
8 things that will be important to him. Hopefully
9 I'll be able to portray those things to him,
10 because I think they're important.
11 I also think it's incredibly important
12 to have somebody else in your life that really
13 loves you and you really love them because if
14 you're [tape irregularity] happy.
15 I've never seen a single solo, isolated
16 human being who was truly happy --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- and that's what's
19 going to happen to Jordy.
20 I think that's June's situation.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: June has nobody. You
23 tell me who June has. You tell me who June has who
24 really loves her, who she really loves back, you
25 can't think of one person.
5
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I can.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Who?
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Gloria.
4 MR. CHANDLER: Gloria.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Really.
6 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
7 inaudible.)
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Gloria, Nadine or Florence.
9 She's pretty close with her friends.
10 MR. CHANDLER: Nah, she's --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: She's -- wait.
12 MR. CHANDLER: She believes that --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: She's close with you.
14 MR. CHANDLER: -- four or five cups of
15 caffeine in the morning and gets on the phone and
16 yaps (inaudible) all day, you commiserate about
17 their miseries --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: But, you know, here's
19 the whole thing. We can't, you know, I can't put
20 her down that all she's doing is hanging out. It's
21 not so horrible.
22 MR. CHANDLER: That what?
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: That, you know, I mean,
24 she's into hanging out.
25 MR. CHANDLER: Hanging out is okay.
6
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. She's --
2 MR. CHANDLER: Hanging out's kind of a
3 benign thing. She's not hanging out anymore. When
4 she stopped hanging out --
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: -- and became actively
7 destructive in Jordy's life is when I stepped in
8 and when I decided I have to do something about it.
9 I tried to talk to her about it, Dave,
10 on several occasions.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we know she's hard
12 to talk to.
13 MR. CHANDLER: Well, if you could -- if
14 you could -- yes. I mean, that's unquestionable.
15 She is impossible to talk to. And I've never
16 really -- I mean, I've gotten angry with her many
17 times and --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: -- [tape irregularity]
20 long as you've stepped in --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- the issue has never
23 involved potentially harming Jordy for the rest of
24 his life --
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: [Tape irregularity.]
7
1 MR. CHANDLER: -- issues over Jordy
2 before that I've backed down --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: -- because you asked me
5 to or whatever the reason was --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: -- and I've never
8 been -- I've never been that set on pursuing it
9 until now because I truly believe this will damage
10 him for the rest of his life. And she will
11 not -- and I've told her that, and I've tried to
12 talk to her about that --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: -- and she's not willing
15 to talk to me about it.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: She doesn't even want to
18 hear what might be harming him.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: She doesn't want to
21 even know -- she doesn't want to hear any words.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: What if --
23 MR. CHANDLER: "Get out of my face.
24 Don't even mention that." That's not an issue for
25 her.
8
1 I mean, what kind of person is that?
2 If -- I stopped taking that personally.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, we all have
4 different ways of coping.
5 MR. CHANDLER: You see, as an adult,
6 coping's no excuse. That's like driving drunk and
7 saying, "I'm sorry, but I didn't realize there was
8 a law against driving drunk" and you just ran on
9 the sidewalk.
10 The fact is you're a responsible adult.
11 You're supposed to have some sense and judgment,
12 and that's how it's going to go down.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. How about if you,
14 June and I get together?
15 MR. CHANDLER: No. Why do you keep
16 doing that?
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don't -- I
18 don't want to subject Jordy to this until -- I
19 mean, I feel very uncomfortable --
20 MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you
21 this way: I have a set routine of words that I'm
22 going to go in there that have been rehearsed and
23 I'm going to say.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Because I don't
9
1 want to say anything that could be used against me.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: So I know exactly what I
4 can say. That's why I'm bringing the tape
5 recorder.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: I have some things on
8 paper to show a few people --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- and that's it. My
11 whole part is going to take two or three minutes,
12 and I'm going to turn around [tape irregularity],
13 and that's it. There's not going to be anything
14 said, other than what I've been told to say --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- and I'm going to turn
17 around and leave, and they're going to have a
18 decision to make.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: And based on that
21 decision, I'll decide whether or not we're going to
22 talk again or whether it's going to go further.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
24 MR. CHANDLER: I have to make a phone
25 call. As soon as I leave the house, I get on the
10
1 telephone.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: I make a phone call.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Say "Go" or I say,
6 "Don't go yet," and that's --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: -- the way it's gonna to
9 be.
10 I've been told what to do, and I have
11 to do it.
12 I'm not -- I happen to know what's
13 going to be going on, see? They don't have to say
14 anything to me. [Tape irregularity] "you have
15 refused to listen to me. Now you're going to have
16 to listen to me. This is my position. Give it a
17 thought."
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: "Think it over."
20 I'm not saying anything bad about
21 anybody, okay? I've got it all on paper.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: I'm going to hand out
24 the paper so that I don't inadvertently [tape
25 irregularity], handing out the paper, "Michael,
11
1 here's your paper. June, here's your paper."
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: "Compare papers. Read
4 this whole thing. This is my feelings about it.
5 Do you want to talk further? We'll talk again."
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: "If you don't" [tape
8 irregularity] -- but, see, all I'm trying to do
9 now, they have forced me to go [tape irregularity]
10 on paper and give it to them to read --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- because [tape
13 irregularity]. I mean, isn't that pitiful?
14 Now, why would they want to cut me out,
15 to go this far, spend this much money, spend so
16 much time in my life crying, being away from my
17 practice, not paying [tape irregularity] everybody
18 else? Why would they want to put me through that?
19 And I made it very clear to June that she was
20 putting me through that because I didn't want any
21 misunderstandings. I've done everything I could to
22 appeal to her. (Inaudible) is cold and heart- --
23 absolutely cold and heartless. That's all --
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, maybe on the
25 surface it appears like that, but I --
12
1 MR. CHANDLER: I know on the surface
2 June is charming --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: No, no. I think on the
4 surface it might appear cold, but I don't -- I
5 don't agree with that.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Dave, "Go fuck yourself"
7 is not a surface reaction.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Have you
9 ever -- you mean you have never done that, right?
10 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
11 inaudible) and they say "Go fuck yourself," that's
12 not a surface --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: You've never done it?
14 MR. CHANDLER: -- sorry.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: You've never done it? I
16 mean, have you ever got pissed at a friend and
17 gotten in an argument for three weeks?
18 MR. CHANDLER: No, no, no.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Never, ever?
20 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
21 inaudible) -- like that, Dave, not consistently
22 like that.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
24 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
25 inaudible) -- so far as to go to say, "Okay.
13
1 Forget about me. This is what's going on with
2 Jordan. This is my concern," and have her say "Go
3 fuck yourself" again. So [tape irregularity] there
4 I said, "This is not a human being I'm dealing with
5 anymore."
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask you
7 this -- I mean, did you give Jordy any ultimatums?
8 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Because, see,
10 that's how he feels trapped, I think.
11 MR. CHANDLER: Too bad.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why -- I mean --
13 MR. CHANDLER: All he has to do is talk
14 to me about it.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but how can
16 you -- I mean, you know what you could do -- I
17 mean, couldn't you approach it like saying, "Jordy,
18 this is how I feel. This is why communications is
19 important. We gotta discuss this."
20 MR. CHANDLER: This is what I said to
21 Jordy. I said, "What if I asked you not to do
22 something?" That's how I put it.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
24 MR. CHANDLER: He said, "I wouldn't
25 care."
14
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: That's what he said.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what's wrong with
4 that?
5 MR. CHANDLER: What's wrong?
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I mean, what is
7 wrong with that?
8 MR. CHANDLER: Well, let me ask you
9 this: Never in his life, ever, would he
10 have -- did he ever respond that way or would he
11 have ever responded that way --
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
13 MR. CHANDLER: -- which means that
14 something has happened inside of him and in his
15 life that is now making him respond to me in a
16 totally different way. What has happened to him?
17 His mother's changed, and Michael's in his life,
18 and you weren't there to balance it out. And
19 that's it.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, and I wasn't
21 there, and you're right.
22 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: I wasn't there to
24 discuss it with him.
25 MR. CHANDLER: So the whole thing
15
1 happened.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
3 MR. CHANDLER: And that's it.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: So blame me.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, I'm not blaming you.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: But it is my fault.
7 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
8 inaudible).
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: It's my fault. I wasn't
10 there to --
11 MR. CHANDLER: No, no. You don't
12 understand. We're gonna see whose fault it is.
13 And I'm gonna tell you: It isn't up to you to
14 decide whose fault it is or up to me to decide
15 whose fault it is. Other people who are trained to
16 [tape irregularity] whose fault it is are going to
17 make that decision, and I'll bet you anything that
18 they don't decide that it's your fault. You're not
19 going to get blamed, and you can go and say
20 whatever you want. No one's [tape irregularity]
21 they may say, "That's very nice. Get the fuck out
22 of here, and let's get down to the real issues,"
23 but that's it. That's what's going to happen. I'm
24 not getting blamed and you're not getting blamed.
25 And that's -- I mean --
16
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: But no one should get
2 blamed. I mean --
3 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
4 inaudible) talking about bottom line because that's
5 what it's really going to come down to --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: -- bottom line, no one's
8 gonna give a shit about you in this issue.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: So when you tell me that
11 I should blame you, that's not the bottom line.
12 That's not how it's going to be seen (simultaneous,
13 inaudible).
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: But does there have to
15 be where someone's at fault? Can't it be where we
16 just work it out?
17 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you see -- yeah.
18 That's why I tried to get in touch with them, to
19 (simultaneous, inaudible) work it out --
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well, but
21 that's -- wait.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- but they don't want
23 to talk to me.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Well, that's not
25 true. That is not true.
17
1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
2 inaudible) till tomorrow --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Have you ever gone
4 through a period where you just didn't -- wait. Of
5 course you have. Of course you have.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Dave --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: When I screamed at
8 Monique to get you to call me.
9 MR. CHANDLER: So what? That was one
10 day. Two days.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: But it didn't
12 matter -- it can't count the days.
13 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I have to count
14 the days because I can't let it go on forever.
15 By the way, they're going on tour on
16 August 15th. They're going to be gone. They're
17 going to be out of the country --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: -- for four months.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Is that bad?
21 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I'm not going to
22 be able to communicate with them about this when
23 they're gone, am I?
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, but you think
25 that --
18
1 MR. CHANDLER: By the way, they're not
2 going.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: They don't know that
5 yet, but they are not going.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: So, I mean, especially
8 if they don't show up tomorrow, they're definitely
9 not going. They'll be lucky if Michael even --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you -- let me
11 ask you this --
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- tour (inaudible) get
13 canceled.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me -- let me
15 ask you this: I mean, why can't you meet -- why
16 can't we meet after I get off work?
17 MR. CHANDLER: Because --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, why not? What's
19 the difference?
20 MR. CHANDLER: Seems to me it's not
21 important enough for you to take off work to be --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: It is important enough,
23 but I still --
24 MR. CHANDLER: Fuck your job.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.
19
1 MR. CHANDLER: It's still going to be
2 there at 8:35. This whole thing's going to take
3 five minutes.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: I've already told you I
6 have -- I'm not allowed to say anything more --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: -- than I've already
9 prepared. It's on paper.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it your --
11 MR. CHANDLER: I'm not going in to --
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Is it because of your
13 attorney?
14 MR. CHANDLER: What?
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because of your
16 attorney?
17 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why don't we meet at
19 your attorney's office?
20 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that's something
21 we can do if we get past tomorrow.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: He's willing to meet
24 with them. Right now he'd like to kill them all.
25 I picked the nastiest mother-fucker I could find.
20
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: The only reason that I'm
3 meeting with them tomorrow is, the real fact of the
4 matter is --
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: -- because of Monique.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: Monique begged me to do
9 it.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: She said, "You're out of
12 control" --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Can Monique be there?
14 MR. CHANDLER: Tomorrow?
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: She wanted to be there,
17 but --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I want her to be there.
19 MR. CHANDLER: I wouldn't let her.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why? Why not?
21 MR. CHANDLER: Because June hates
22 Monique.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: That's not true.
24 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know
25 something?
21
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: That is not true --
2 MR. CHANDLER: Now --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: -- at all.
4 MR. CHANDLER: Well, really! Well,
5 then that makes Jordy a liar, and that makes
6 Michael a liar.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?
8 MR. CHANDLER: They both told me that
9 Monique -- that June --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. You can't see
11 that whole thing?
12 MR. CHANDLER: What?
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: That's woman jealousy.
14 MR. CHANDLER: I don't care what --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn't matter --
16 MR. CHANDLER: The problem is you're in
17 love with her so you keep on making excuses.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.
19 MR. CHANDLER: I'm not in love with her
20 anymore. I don't even like her anymore.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don't know about
22 female jealousy?
23 MR. CHANDLER: I don't care about that.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: That has nothing --
25 MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible) Dave.
22
1 That's pathologic. I don't want that affecting --
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: That's not pathologic.
3 That is the bottom line.
4 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
5 inaudible) pathologic. I don't care what the
6 reason is. I don't care. I'm not playing
7 psychiatrist and analyzing.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why wouldn't you
9 want Monique there? I would feel much more
10 comfortable.
11 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
12 inaudible), that's why.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?
14 MR. CHANDLER: Because June hates her,
15 so I don't want to --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: She does not hate her.
17 MR. CHANDLER: Of course she hates her.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: She totally respects her
19 and doesn't hate her.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, Jordy is a
21 liar and Michael (inaudible) --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait, wait.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- because they told me
24 verbatim, together --
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?
23
1 MR. CHANDLER: -- that June hates
2 Monique.
3 In fact, they went even further and
4 told me several of the things that June said about
5 Monique.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? Now, maybe they
8 went back and told June that Monique said things
9 about her and --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: -- (inaudible) lied.
12 Maybe they're lying. I don't know. But knowing
13 June, I don't think that they lied. I think
14 they're telling me the truth.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: And I want Monique out
17 of this completely.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: Because all that will
20 happen is that June will convince Jordy that
21 Monique's a bad person and by her presence there
22 she must have put me up to this whole thing --
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
24 MR. CHANDLER: -- and June will
25 fabricate some great lie --
24
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Ahhh.
2 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
3 inaudible) I'm only going there because of Monique,
4 because, to tell you the truth, Dave, it would be a
5 lot easier for me and a lot more satisfying --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: -- to see everybody get
8 destroyed --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- like they've
11 destroyed me, but it would be a lot easier.
12 And Monique just kept telling me, "You
13 don't want to really do this," and she finally
14 [tape irregularity] for the sake of everything that
15 we've all had in the past --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: -- to give it one more
18 try, and that's the only reason, because this
19 attorney I found -- I mean, I interviewed several,
20 and I picked the nastiest son of a bitch --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- I could find, and all
23 he wants to do is get this out in the public as
24 fast as he can, as big as he can --
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25
1 MR. CHANDLER: -- and humiliate as many
2 people as he can, and he's got a bad [tape
3 irregularity] --
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that's
5 good?
6 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
7 inaudible) he's costing me a lot of money.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that's
9 good?
10 MR. CHANDLER: I think that's great. I
11 think it's terrific. The best. Because when
12 somebody -- when somebody tells you that they don't
13 want to talk to you --
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: -- you have to talk to
16 them --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- you have to get their
19 attention. It's a matter of life and death.
20 That's how I'm taking it. I have to talk to them.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: This is life and death
23 for my son. I have to get their attention. If I
24 don't get it, if I haven't gotten it on the phone
25 and I don't get it tomorrow --
26
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: -- this guy will
3 certainly get it. That's the next step. And you
4 want to know something? I even have somebody after
5 him if he doesn't [tape irregularity]. But I don't
6 want [tape malfunctioned]. I'm not kidding. I
7 mean what I told you before.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
9 MR. CHANDLER: It's true. I mean, it
10 could be a massacre if I don't get what I want.
11 But I do believe this person will get what he
12 wants.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: So he would just really
15 love [tape irregularity] nothing better than to
16 have this go forward. He is nasty, he is mean --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- he is very smart
19 [tape irregularity], and he's hungry for the
20 publicity [tape irregularity] better for him.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: And that's where it'll
23 go --
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don't think everyone
25 loses?
27
1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
2 inaudible) totally humiliate him in every way --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: That -- everyone doesn't
4 lose in that?
5 MR. CHANDLER: That's not the issue.
6 See, the issue is that if I have to go that far --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: -- I can't stop and
9 think "Who wins and who loses?"
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: All I can think about is
12 I only have one goal, and the goal is to get their
13 attention --
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: -- so that [tape
16 irregularity] concerns are, and as long as they
17 don't want to talk to me, I can't tell them what my
18 concerns are, so I have to go step by step, each
19 time escalating the attention-getting mechanism,
20 and that's all I regard him as, as an
21 attention-getting mechanism.
22 Unfortunately, after that, it's totally
23 out of [tape irregularity]. It'll take on so much
24 momentum of its own that it's going to be out of
25 all our control. It's going to be monumentally
28
1 huge, and I'm not going to have any way to stop it.
2 No one else is either at that point. I mean, once
3 I make that phone call, this guy's just going to
4 destroy everybody in site in any devious, nasty,
5 cruel way that he can do it. And I've given him
6 full authority to do that.
7 To go beyond tomorrow, that would mean
8 I have done every possible thing in my individual
9 power to tell them to sit down and talk to me; and
10 if they still [tape irregularity], I got to
11 escalate the attention-getting mechanism. He's the
12 next one. I can't go to somebody nice [tape
13 irregularity]. It doesn't work with them. I
14 already found that out. Get some niceness and just
15 go fuck yourself.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: Basically, what they
18 have to know, ultimately, is that their lives are
19 over, if they don't sit down. One way or the
20 other, it'll either go to the next step or the
21 [tape irregularity]. I'm not stopping until I get
22 their attention.
23 Do I [tape irregularity] the only goal
24 is right now I have to do what I think is best for
25 Jordy --
29
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: -- and I think what's
3 going on now is bad for Jordy, and therefore any
4 alternative is better.
5 If I'm wrong, they should sit down, and
6 they should tell me why I'm wrong.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: But --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: So wouldn't you sit down
10 with me, and we could discuss it first?
11 MR. CHANDLER: No, because you don't
12 know the issues.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but you could tell
14 me.
15 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
16 inaudible) totally ignorant of all the issues.
17 No. There's really no way you could
18 relate these to somebody, you know.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah? Well, sure you
20 could.
21 MR. CHANDLER: Like it'll get related.
22 It'll get related, you know. You'll see it.
23 You'll see it, and it's not going to be up for me
24 or you to decide.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Can you meet him here at
30
1 work?
2 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, no. I'm going to
3 meet at the house.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why can't you meet here?
5 MR. CHANDLER: Well, for one thing,
6 Michael has to be there.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Michael will
8 come.
9 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
10 inaudible) won't be at Rent a Wreck.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Michael would come here.
12 MR. CHANDLER: Well, how do you know
13 that?
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'll see. I mean, if
15 he'll come here, will you do it here?
16 MR. CHANDLER: No. Why?
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because it's easier for
18 me.
19 MR. CHANDLER: So you could be at work?
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. So I don't have to
21 leave.
22 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
23 inaudible) signals.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?
25 MR. CHANDLER: You keep giving me
31
1 these --
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: It's not crossed
3 signals. I'm telling you it's -- I'm here every
4 second. It's difficult to get away.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you have to get
6 your priorities --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but my priority is
8 this, but, I mean, you can compromise for me.
9 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
10 inaudible) tell me this is very difficult choice,
11 you know, your children or your work.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Hey, it's not a
13 difficult choice.
14 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: But it's just --
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- the issue, then. Be
17 it --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: It makes it -- wait.
19 What's the difference --
20 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
21 inaudible) work by 9:00 o'clock.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: What is the difference
23 for you? I mean, it makes it easier for me. Is it
24 different for you?
25 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.
32
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Why is it
2 different?
3 MR. CHANDLER: What if I told you their
4 house was wired?
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Does that make a
7 difference?
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
9 MR. CHANDLER: I'm not saying it is.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: I'm just saying, "What
12 if it was?"
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, well --
14 MR. CHANDLER: Would that -- would
15 you -- could you see the [tape irregularity].
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Then you want to
17 record it.
18 MR. CHANDLER: Let's just say that it
19 is.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: Let's just say that.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
23 MR. CHANDLER: I'm not saying it is.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
25 MR. CHANDLER: But let's just say that
33
1 it was. Okay? That would make a difference.
2 (Inaudible)?
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. You got to do me
4 one favor.
5 MR. CHANDLER: What?
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. The way we've
7 just talked is completely -- the way you've sounded
8 is completely different than when I talked to you
9 the first time. I mean, you gotta be --
10 MR. CHANDLER: Well, (inaudible)
11 talking tomorrow, Dave.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?
13 MR. CHANDLER: I told you, it's all on
14 paper.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: That's why I'm bringing
17 a tape recorder.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but are you going
19 to be calm like this?
20 MR. CHANDLER: I have nothing to say.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: I'm not going to be
23 calm. I'm not going to be anything. I'm not going
24 to be -- I'm going to be totally void of anything.
25 I'm just going to say, "Look. Here's something for
34
1 you guys to read. You read it. You think it
2 over."
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: "If you want to sit down
5 and talk, we can all meet in my attorney's office."
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: "If you want to tell me
8 to go fuck myself, then just let me know that" --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- "and I'll let him
11 know that's what your feelings are."
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why do you --
13 MR. CHANDLER: -- and that has
14 to -- that has to happen before 12:00 o'clock
15 tomorrow. They have to make that decision --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And let me ask
17 you this --
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
19 inaudible) don't hear from them about it, then the
20 wheels start --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why do you have to have
22 Jordy there, if all we're going to do is read it?
23 MR. CHANDLER: I tried to explain that
24 to you.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. If we have to read
35
1 something.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Because I explained that
3 to you. I want him to see how I'm behaving.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: I want him to see how
6 I'm acting.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you
8 have to have Michael there?
9 MR. CHANDLER: What's that beeping
10 going on? Do you hear that?
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: Are you recording this?
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: No.
14 MR. CHANDLER: Do you hear the beeping?
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: Well, let's hang up.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
18 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Bye.
20 ---o0o---
21 ///
22 ///
23 ///
24
25
36
1 CONVERSATION 2
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 CUSTOMER: This is for a -- how do you
5 guys do -- a mid-sized --
6 SALESMAN: Well, what is it you need?
7 CUSTOMER: I would just like to rent.
8 SALESMAN: But I mean do you need a
9 particular size car?
10 CUSTOMER: No.
11 SALESMAN: No? Okay.
12 CUSTOMER: Affordable one.
13 SALESMAN: Okay. When do you need it?
14 CUSTOMER: For next week.
15 SALESMAN: All right. And do you know
16 how many days you need it for?
17 CUSTOMER: Probably would be a week or
18 two.
19 SALESMAN: Okay. Are you going to
20 travel just in L.A. or --
21 CUSTOMER: Yeah, just L.A.
22 SALESMAN: -- all over the place?
23 All right. We would have -- well, the
24 price starts weekly at 139 per week. If you want
25 something bigger or newer, the price would go up a
37
1 little bit.
2 CUSTOMER: Uh-huh.
3 SALESMAN: And you're under 25, so
4 there is a charge of $10 per day --
5 CUSTOMER: Okay.
6 SALESMAN: -- in addition to the rate.
7 CUSTOMER: Okay. And what kind of cars
8 do you have?
9 SALESMAN: All different kinds of cars.
10 Basically what we do is we let you select from
11 what's available, but the price does start at 139
12 per week.
13 CUSTOMER: For every car there, or --
14 SALESMAN: No, no. That's -- the price
15 starts at 139. If you want something, like I said,
16 a little newer or bigger, then the price would go
17 up.
18 CUSTOMER: Okay. So, like, you guys
19 are right here on Pico --
20 SALESMAN: Right, uh-huh.
21 CUSTOMER: Okay. Now, I thought that
22 you guys had like a Lincoln Continental, the old --
23 SALESMAN: We're selling that one.
24 CUSTOMER: Oh, you're selling that.
25 SALESMAN: Right.
38
1 CUSTOMER: Okay. What about the big
2 Cadillacs that you have out there? How much --
3 SALESMAN: We have those, but they're
4 about $500 a day.
5 CUSTOMER: $500 a day?
6 SALESMAN: Yeah. And you got to be 25
7 to rent them, too.
8 CUSTOMER: Oh yeah?
9 SALESMAN: Yeah.
10 CUSTOMER: So what will be the car that
11 I will be --
12 SALESMAN: Oh, something -- looks like
13 a regular car, like a Chevy Cavalier or something.
14 CUSTOMER: Oh, okay. And that will go
15 for 139?
16 SALESMAN: Yeah. They start at 139 per
17 week, right.
18 CUSTOMER: Okay. All right.
19 SALESMAN: Plus $10 a day.
20 CUSTOMER: Yeah. Fine. $10 a day.
21 That's cool. That's cool. And is it unlimited
22 miles or --
23 SALESMAN: Each week you get 500 miles
24 free.
25 CUSTOMER: 500 miles free?
39
1 SALESMAN: Right.
2 CUSTOMER: Cool. Cool. Okay. Well,
3 cool.
4 SALESMAN: Let us know if we can help
5 you, though, okay?
6 CUSTOMER: All right. Thank you.
7 SALESMAN: Thanks. Bye-bye.
8 CUSTOMER: Bye.
9 ---o0o---
10 ///
11 ///
12 ///
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
40
1 CONVERSATION 3
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help you,
5 please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yes. David?
7 SALESMAN: This is Salesman. Dave is on
8 the other line right now.
9 CUSTOMER: Oh, (inaudible) on the other
10 line. Okay. Well --
11 SALESMAN: Can you hold on, please?
12 CUSTOMER: Sure.
13 (Music playing.)
14 SALESMAN: Yes. Can I take a message and
15 have David call you back?
16 CUSTOMER: Yeah. Could you please tell him
17 to call me at 310-000-0000?
18 SALESMAN: 000-0000?
19 CUSTOMER: Yeah. My name is CUSTOMER.
20 SALESMAN: Okay, Customer. I will have him
21 call you. He knows what it's about, Customer?
22 CUSTOMER: I suppose so. Yeah. It's
23 about -- it's about the Chrysler convertible.
24 SALESMAN: Okay. Is that 213, Customer?
25 CUSTOMER: No. 310.
41
1 SALESMAN: Okay. I'll have him call you.
2 CUSTOMER: Okay.
3 SALESMAN: Thank you, sir.
4 CUSTOMER: Bye-bye.
5 SALESMAN: Bye-Bye.
6 ---o0o---
7 ///
8 ///
9 ///
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
42
1 CONVERSATION 4
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Right. I was wondering how old
7 you had to be to rent a car --
8 SALESMAN: Is it for you?
9 CUSTOMER: Yeah.
10 SALESMAN: How old are you?
11 CUSTOMER: I'm 18.
12 SALESMAN: 18. Do you have a credit
13 card of your own?
14 CUSTOMER: Yes.
15 SALESMAN: You do?
16 CUSTOMER: Yes.
17 SALESMAN: How about car insurance?
18 Are you covered on anyone's insurance policy right
19 now?
20 CUSTOMER: I believe I am.
21 SALESMAN: Okay. When do you need the
22 car?
23 CUSTOMER: Today.
24 SALESMAN: Today? Let me do this:
25 Give me your name and number, and I'll have the
43
1 manager, Dave, call you right back. Maybe we -- I
2 think we probably can work it out for you, though.
3 CUSTOMER: Okay.
4 SALESMAN: What's your name?
5 CUSTOMER: Customer.
6 SALESMAN: Okay, Customer. Your phone
7 number is?
8 CUSTOMER: It's seven -- oh, it's 213 --
9 SALESMAN: 213.
10 CUSTOMER: 000 --
11 SALESMAN: 000.
12 CUSTOMER: -- 0000.
13 SALESMAN: Okay. Dave is going to call
14 you back in just a few minutes, okay?
15 CUSTOMER: Okay.
16 SALESMAN: Thanks, Customer. Bye-Bye.
17 ---o0o---
18 ///
19 ///
20 ///
21
22
23
24
25
44
1 CONVERSATION 5:
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help you
5 please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yeah. Can you give me some
7 rental information, please?
8 SALESMAN: Yes.
9 CUSTOMER: On a one-week rental for a
10 budget car?
11 SALESMAN: Sure. Starting when did you
12 need it?
13 CUSTOMER: For today.
14 SALESMAN: For local use right here in
15 the city, or are you taking a trip someplace?
16 CUSTOMER: No. It's around the city.
17 SALESMAN: Okay. Are you at least 25,
18 sir?
19 CUSTOMER: I'm 25, but I don't have a
20 credit card. My girlfriend does, and she's 23.
21 SALESMAN: She's 23. She's -- do you
22 own a car right now?
23 CUSTOMER: Do I own a car?
24 SALESMAN: Yes.
25 CUSTOMER: No, sir.
45
1 SALESMAN: Because for me to --
2 CUSTOMER: (Inaudible) I.D.'s --
3 SALESMAN: I can rent a car to your
4 girlfriend, but I couldn't put your name on the
5 contract unless you had car insurance or a credit
6 card.
7 CUSTOMER: Okay. Could you rent it to
8 her?
9 SALESMAN: Yeah. Being that she's under
10 the age of 25, it's an additional charge of $10 per
11 day for the car. The car itself will start at $119
12 a day, plus the $10 charge per day. That would be
13 for a little compact or a mid-sized used car.
14 CUSTOMER: Okay. Can you work out what a
15 weekly rental --
16 SALESMAN: Yeah. The 119 charge plus
17 sales tax makes it -- plus seven days -- 198.
18 CUSTOMER: 198?
19 SALESMAN: Yes, sir.
20 CUSTOMER: That's with the $10 and
21 everything, right?
22 SALESMAN: And the sales tax, yes.
23 That's everything in there.
24 CUSTOMER: 198 per week.
25 Okay. How do I get to you? I'm
46
1 at -- I'm on -- what is the street? I'm on Lincoln
2 close to Pico.
3 SALESMAN: You're on Lincoln close to
4 Pico? Are you calling from a residence, or where
5 are you calling from?
6 CUSTOMER: (Inaudible) from a pay phone.
7 I'm at a motel here.
8 SALESMAN: Okay. Is your girlfriend
9 there with you?
10 CUSTOMER: Yes, she is.
11 SALESMAN: Okay. Because (inaudible) we
12 can pick you guys up free of charge.
13 CUSTOMER: Oh, you could, eh?
14 SALESMAN: Yeah.
15 CUSTOMER: And we'd come down there for
16 the paperwork?
17 SALESMAN: Yeah. We come down. We'll
18 show you a few used cars and put you right back on
19 the road again.
20 CUSTOMER: What kind of cars are they?
21 SALESMAN: They're used cars in the early
22 '80s and the mid-'80s. Could be Chevys, Hondas,
23 Buicks, Toyotas. They don't look all that great.
24 They're kind of average looking, nothing fancy, but
25 they're all clean and reliable and run fantastic
47
1 for you.
2 CUSTOMER: There's no problem her being
3 23?
4 SALESMAN: No, sir.
5 CUSTOMER: Okay. Let me grab her, just
6 take a shower and stuff. How long will it take you
7 guys to come down?
8 SALESMAN: Five minutes we'll be there.
9 Tell you what. Let me give you my 800
10 number here. Are you calling me on that number?
11 CUSTOMER: Okay. I don't got a pen or
12 nothing. Could I call you back on this 478 number?
13 SALESMAN: Yeah. You'll probably just
14 have to pay for it. That's all.
15 What's your name?
16 CUSTOMER: Customer.
17 SALESMAN: Okay, Customer.Give me a call
18 back. We'll come get you.
19 CUSTOMER: All right.
20 SALESMAN: Okay?
21 CUSTOMER: Thanks.
22 SALESMAN: Bye.
23 ---o0o---
24 ///
25 ///
48
1 CONVERSATION 6
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yeah. What would be the
7 cheapest convertible that you would have available
8 today and tomorrow?
9 SALESMAN: I can't answer that, but I'd
10 be glad to have David call you right back. He
11 handles all of our convertibles.
12 CUSTOMER: Fine. Okay.
13 SALESMAN: Yeah. What's your name,
14 please?
15 CUSTOMER: Customer.
16 SALESMAN: Okay, Customer. And your phone
17 number is?
18 CUSTOMER: 310.
19 SALESMAN: Yes.
20 CUSTOMER: 000 --
21 SALESMAN: Whoops. Hold on. I got a
22 problem with my phone cord here.
23 Let's see. 310.
24 CUSTOMER: Don't hurt yourself.
25 310 --
49
1 SALESMAN: Yes.
2 CUSTOMER: 000.
3 SALESMAN: 000.
4 CUSTOMER: 0000.
5 SALESMAN: 0000. Okay. I'll have
6 David call you right back. Thanks.
7 ---o0o---
8 ///
9 ///
10 ///
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
50
1 CONVERSATION 7
2 between Salesman and Man and
3 between David Schwartz and Man:
4
5 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
6 you, please?
7 MAN: Yeah. My name is
8 Man. I was speaking with someone there
9 a few days ago. I'm working on a movie, and I'm
10 looking for a van.
11 SALESMAN: Certainly. Can you hold on,
12 Mr. Man?
13 MAN: Sure.
14 SALESMAN: Thanks.
15 (Pause in proceedings.)
16 SALESMAN 2: Hello?
17 MAN: Hi. My name is
18 Man.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, sir.
20 MR. MAN: And I spoke with someone
21 there a couple of days ago.
22 Anyway, I'm working on a movie, and I'm
23 looking for a van to rent for one month, and --
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: What you want it to look
25 like?
51
1 MR. MAN: Well, what I need is I
2 need one of those passenger vans.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Uh-huh.
4 MR. MAN: With most of the seats
5 taken out.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Uh-huh.
7 MR. MAN: So we can put camera
8 equipment in the back.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I see. You want it
10 to shoot out of. Uh-huh.
11 MR. MAN: Yeah. We don't -- yeah.
12 I mean --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: It's not for the movie?
14 MR. MAN: What's that?
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: It's not for the movies.
16 You just need the windows.
17 MR. MAN: Yeah. We need it for
18 equipment.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm. Okay. It's
20 going to be for a trip or local driving?
21 MR. MAN: Well, it will be one trip
22 up to Bakersfield, and then that's where we're
23 filming for one month. I need it for one month.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, okay. You're going
25 to be in Bakersfield.
52
1 MR. MAN: Right.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
3 MR. MAN: Now, do you have anything
4 like that?
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. MAN: Okay. How much? What's
7 the rate?
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, see, we just have
9 daily rates on those.
10 MR. MAN: Well, I was hoping we can
11 cut a deal for a month. I'm sure we could.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I'll tell you --
13 so what did you guys have budgeted for that?
14 MR. MAN: Not very much. We're a
15 student film.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I see. Yeah.
17 MR. MAN: But --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: See, my situation is
19 that those vans go out almost every day.
20 MR. MAN: You can get a better rate,
21 right, if you -- but, I mean, we can pay -- we're
22 paying cash, if that makes any difference to you.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn't.
24 Let me tell you where I think you might
25 be able to get a good weekly rate.
53
1 MR. MAN: Okay.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you this:
3 How much did you have in mind that you wanted to
4 pay?
5 MR. MAN: Around $600.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: For this whole time,
7 yeah.
8 MR. MAN: Yeah.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Call this number.
10 000-0000.
11 MR. MAN: And who is that?
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Sam's U-Drive.
13 MR. MAN: Sam's U-Drive?
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Also, I'll tell you what
15 you could do. We have a Rent a Wreck in
16 Bakersfield.
17 MR. MAN: Yeah, I know. I've talked
18 to them, and all that they have, though, is a
19 station wagon.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I see. They don't
21 have the others?
22 MR. MAN: No. They're cool guys up
23 there, John and Tom.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: John, right.
25 MR. MAN: Yeah . I've been dealing
54
1 with them quite a bit, actually. We haven't rented
2 from them yet, but --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: See, I'll tell you my
4 situation. See, I'd have to look, because most
5 likely -- see, I only have two of them like that --
6
7 MR. MAN: Okay.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: -- and my problem is we
9 book them in advance, you know, the passenger vans?
10 MR. MAN: Yeah.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: So the chances are I
12 won't have it available for a whole month.
13 MR. MAN: Now, do you have anything
14 else that you could shoot out of?
15 Yeah. We don't even need to shoot out
16 of. We just need to put the camera in it and drive
17 it to the set. That's all we need.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I see. So you don't
19 need the windows?
20 MR. MAN: No, we don't need windows.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. You don't need a
22 passenger van?
23 MR. MAN: No, not necessarily.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Don't they have vans
25 there?
55
1 MR. MAN: Where?
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: At -- oh, up in
3 Bakersfield?
4 MR. MAN: No, they don't.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: I would try Sam's
6 U-Drive. They might work some deal out with you.
7 MR. MAN: Okay.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
9 MR. MAN: Okay. I appreciate it.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. I do too.
11 MR. MAN: Thanks. Bye-bye.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Think about it.
13 ---o0o---
14 ///
15 ///
16 ///
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
56
1 CONVERSATION 8
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yes. I had called you
7 earlier about renting a 15-passenger van to go to
8 Knott's Berry Farm, and you quoted me a rate of
9 59.95 for a 12-passenger with 100 miles free.
10 SALESMAN: Okay.
11 CUSTOMER: Do you -- what kind of van
12 is that? What year is it?
13 SALESMAN: It's a late '80s. I don't
14 know the exact year.
15 CUSTOMER: Late '80s. But it is --
16 it's a more recent van, then?
17 SALESMAN: Yeah. When do you need it,
18 though?
19 CUSTOMER: Sunday, the 21st.
20 SALESMAN: Let's see -- did you reserve
21 it already or you didn't --
22 CUSTOMER: No, I didn't. I just was
23 getting information on it.
24 SALESMAN: Okay.
25 CUSTOMER: I wanted to double-check on
57
1 that with you.
2 SALESMAN: Okay. Yeah. The exact
3 year, I don't know. It's somewhere between '87 to
4 '89.
5 CUSTOMER: Okay. So is it like a Ford
6 or something like that?
7 SALESMAN: It's a Dodge.
8 CUSTOMER: A Dodge?
9 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
10 CUSTOMER: Okay. And it's 59.95 with a
11 hundred free miles, and that's a 12-passenger,
12 right?
13 SALESMAN: 12-passenger.
14 CUSTOMER: Do you have a 15-passenger?
15 SALESMAN: No. We don't carry anything
16 that large.
17 CUSTOMER: Okay. I'm still trying to
18 (inaudible) what to do here between a 15- and a
19 20-passenger.
20 SALESMAN: How many people are you
21 going to move?
22 CUSTOMER: We've got 15 people, and
23 I've got a couple other people that will drive, so
24 I'm debating whether to go with a 12- or 15-
25 passenger.
58
1 SALESMAN: Oh, I see. Yeah. It's --
2 some people try to make mistake of cramming too
3 many people in the van, so --
4 CUSTOMER: I know. I don't want to --
5 SALESMAN: It's just not a very safe
6 thing to do.
7 CUSTOMER: No. I realize that. But it
8 has seat belts and all that kind of thing?
9 SALESMAN: Yeah, it does. I think that
10 Avis at the airport carries 15-passenger vans,
11 though.
12 CUSTOMER: Oh, do they?
13 SALESMAN: I'm pretty sure.
14 CUSTOMER: Okay. Let me give them a
15 shot. Thank you.
16 SALESMAN: And another place is
17 Marathon Rent A Car over in Culver City, over on
18 Washington Boulevard. They have 15-passenger vans
19 too.
20 CUSTOMER: Okay. I'll give them a try,
21 then.
22 SALESMAN: Okay?
23 CUSTOMER: Thank you very much.
24 SALESMAN: All right. You're welcome.
25 Bye-bye.
59
1 CUSTOMER: Thank you very much.
2 SALESMAN: All right. You're welcome.
3 Bye-bye.
4 ---o0o---
5 ///
6 ///
7 ///
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
60
1 CONVERSATION 9
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Hi. I'm looking to rent a
7 compact car. Do you have one available today?
8 SALESMAN: Well, sure, I can get you
9 one. How long do you need one for?
10 CUSTOMER: Just for today.
11 SALESMAN: Today, and you're age 25 and
12 older?
13 CUSTOMER: Yeah.
14 SALESMAN: With a major credit card?
15 CUSTOMER: Yeah.
16 SALESMAN: Do you plan on driving
17 locally around here with the vehicle?
18 CUSTOMER: Just (inaudible), yeah.
19 SALESMAN: Okay. We'll get you a car.
20 We have as low as 22.95 a day.
21 CUSTOMER: Okay. Fine. I'll be there in
22 about a half an hour, then.
23 SALESMAN: Sure. What's your name?
24 CUSTOMER: Customer
25 SALESMAN: Customer?
61
1 CUSTOMER: Customer.
2 SALESMAN: Customer.
3 CUSTOMER: Customer (inaudible).
4 SALESMAN: Okay.
5 CUSTOMER: Okay?
6 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
7 CUSTOMER: Thank you, then.
8 ---o0o---
9 ///
10 ///
11 ///
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
62
1 CONVERSATION 10
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Dave Schwartz.
7 SALESMAN: David is outside, sir.
8 Would you like to leave a message for him?
9 CUSTOMER: No. He just called me.
10 I'm just returning his call.
11 SALESMAN: Okay. What's your name?
12 CUSTOMER: Customer.
13 SALESMAN: Okay, Customer. I'll tell him
14 that you called.
15 CUSTOMER: Thanks.
16 SALESMAN: Okay.
17 ---o0o---
18 ///
19 ///
20 ///
21
22
23
24
25
63
1 CONVERSATION 11
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please? Hello?
6 CUSTOMER: Hello?
7 SALESMAN: Yes, sir.
8 CUSTOMER: Yes. Good morning.
9 SALESMAN: Good morning.
10 CUSTOMER: May car was stolen
11 yesterday, and the insurance company will pay up to
12 $10 a day, and I wanted to find out what kind of a
13 car that I can rent from you which will be close to
14 that.
15 SALESMAN: Starting today?
16 CUSTOMER: No. It would be starting
17 tomorrow, Monday.
18 SALESMAN: Tomorrow, Monday. Okay.
19 Hold on a second, please.
20 (Music playing.)
21 SALESMAN: Okay. Hello?
22 CUSTOMER: Hello.
23 SALESMAN: Okay. What we can do is
24 (inaudible) the information from your insurance
25 company. We can direct bill them. We just need to
64
1 see proof of insurance.
2 CUSTOMER: Yeah.
3 SALESMAN: And you're age 25 and older?
4 CUSTOMER: Excuse me?
5 SALESMAN: You're age 25 and older?
6 CUSTOMER: Yes.
7 SALESMAN: With a major credit card?
8 CUSTOMER: (Inaudible.)
9 SALESMAN: So we can work that out. We
10 can get you a car for $10 a day. It would be
11 something like a early '80 vehicle that doesn't
12 look the greatest but it runs spectacular.
13 CUSTOMER: Well, what kind of a car is
14 that? I mean --
15 SALESMAN: Well, we have -- just
16 depends what we have available tomorrow, but like I
17 say it would be an older vehicle, and it doesn't
18 look the greatest, but it's, you know, runs great.
19 CUSTOMER: Yeah. Is it unlimited
20 mileage?
21 SALESMAN: No. We'll just give 50
22 miles a day free with that.
23 CUSTOMER: (Inaudible.)
24 SALESMAN: Do a lot of driving?
25 CUSTOMER: It's all over, yeah.
65
1 SALESMAN: Hum?
2 CUSTOMER: Yeah.
3 SALESMAN: Well, are you like a
4 salesperson, sales rep?
5 CUSTOMER: No, but I'm doing driving.
6 So you don't have anything with
7 unlimited mileage?
8 SALESMAN: No, we don't, sir.
9 CUSTOMER: Okay. So I'll just have to
10 come tomorrow down and take a look at those cars.
11 SALESMAN: Sure. We could do that.
12 Yes.
13 CUSTOMER: You're going to have
14 something tomorrow?
15 SALESMAN: We should -- we could get
16 you something. Just make sure, you know, like I
17 say, bring proof of your liability insurance and
18 everything with your --
19 CUSTOMER: Yeah, yeah, no problem.
20 SALESMAN: Okay.
21 CUSTOMER: Now, where are you located
22 at?
23 SALESMAN: My address is 0000 Bundy.
24 CUSTOMER: 0000 Bundy.
25 SALESMAN: Bundy.
66
1 CUSTOMER: Which is on the corner of
2 what?
3 SALESMAN: Bundy and Sunset. And we
4 open up at 10:00 o'clock tomorrow. Be here between
5 10:00 and 1:00 o'clock.
6 CUSTOMER: Oh, okay.
7 SALESMAN: Okay, sir.
8 CUSTOMER: Thank you. Bye-bye.
9 ---o0o---
10 ///
11 ///
12 ///
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
67
1 CONVERSATION 12
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yes. I just called you a
7 little earlier about the renting a car tomorrow.
8 SALESMAN: Yes.
9 CUSTOMER: I want to find out how much
10 is the mileage.
11 SALESMAN: I beg your pardon?
12 CUSTOMER: How much is the mileage?
13 SALESMAN: How long are you keeping the
14 car for?
15 CUSTOMER: Well, it might be a month
16 or --
17 SALESMAN: By the month we give you
18 enough to cover you. You get 1500 miles every
19 single month.
20 CUSTOMER: Oh, okay, because, yeah, it
21 depend how long they gonna find my car.
22 SALESMAN: Of course.
23 CUSTOMER: If they find my car
24 (inaudible) but the insurance will pay, like I say,
25 $10 a day, up to a month. So (inaudible).
68
1 SALESMAN: Well, on the cars for the
2 $10 a day, those are the insurance cars that we
3 have. They don't look all that great at all.
4 They're a little bit ugly-looking cars. On the
5 insurance cars you get 50 miles free every single
6 day with the car. So let's say 50 times 30 days,
7 it would be -- yeah, it's 1500. Yeah, that's
8 correct.
9 CUSTOMER: And but if I go over that,
10 how much would it be? I mean --
11 SALESMAN: If you happen to go over
12 that, it's 20 cents a mile. But that would have to
13 be a lot of driving.
14 CUSTOMER: Oh, okay.
15 SALESMAN: I mean, a lot of driving.
16 CUSTOMER: Yeah, because I have to go
17 to Mojave.
18 SALESMAN: To the Mojave Desert?
19 CUSTOMER: Yes, next weekend.
20 SALESMAN: Because these cars
21 are -- remember when you called earlier I asked if
22 you were local use or a trip?
23 CUSTOMER: Uh-huh.
24 SALESMAN: These cars are for local use
25 only. They wouldn't be allowed to go to the Mojave
69
1 Desert.
2 CUSTOMER: Okay. Well, I can still
3 rent it and --
4 SALESMAN: Yeah.
5 CUSTOMER: (Inaudible) rent maybe for
6 that weekend.
7 SALESMAN: Yeah.
8 CUSTOMER: Okay. So I'll see you
9 tomorrow, then.
10 SALESMAN: Okay. Great.
11 CUSTOMER: Thank you.
12 SALESMAN: Thanks.
13 ---o0o---
14 ///
15 ///
16 ///
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
70
1 CONVERSATION 13:
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yes. Hi. Could you tell me
7 if the Customers have picked up the van yet?
8 SALESMAN: Oh, let me see --
9 CUSTOMER: It was a white van, and they
10 were supposed to pick it up between 10:00 and
11 11:00?
12 SALESMAN: Someone named Customer just
13 picked it up about a quarter to 11:00.
14 CUSTOMER: Quarter to 11:00. Okay.
15 Thank you.
16 SALESMAN: Okay. Bye-bye.
17 CUSTOMER: Bye-bye.
18 ---o0o---
19 ///
20 ///
21 ///
22
23
24
25
71
1 CONVERSATION 14:
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Hi. Can you tell me how old
7 you have to be to rent a car?
8 SALESMAN: How old is the driver?
9 CUSTOMER: The driver is 20.
10 SALESMAN: 20. With a major credit
11 card?
12 CUSTOMER: Uh-huh.
13 SALESMAN: When do you need the
14 vehicle?
15 CUSTOMER: Excuse me?
16 SALESMAN: When do you need the car?
17 CUSTOMER: Today.
18 SALESMAN: Today? Okay. Well, we can
19 rent a car to you.
20 CUSTOMER: Okay. Great.
21 SALESMAN: How long do you need the car
22 for?
23 CUSTOMER: Just today.
24 SALESMAN: Just today.
25 CUSTOMER: (Inaudible) we turn it in.
72
1 We're leaving tomorrow.
2 SALESMAN: Okay. Okay. (Inaudible)
3 town driving locally here around Los Angeles?
4 CUSTOMER: Uh-huh.
5 SALESMAN: Okay. Well, yeah. We also
6 provide a free pickup service if you're in the
7 area.
8 CUSTOMER: Okay.
9 SALESMAN: Where are you located right
10 now?
11 CUSTOMER: (Inaudible) we're near
12 Venice.
13 SALESMAN: Near Venice? We can come
14 over and pick you up. Only thing, we have to
15 charge an underage charge because you're under the
16 age of 25. It's a $10 a day underage charge.
17 CUSTOMER: Okay.
18 SALESMAN: Renting a car would be
19 $49.95 a day. Like I say, we can come over and
20 pick you up.
21 CUSTOMER: Okay. And what time does it
22 have to be back in tomorrow?
23 SALESMAN: Oh, it's a 24-hour rental.
24 What time do you want to turn it in?
25 CUSTOMER: 24-hour rental?
73
1 SALESMAN: Yes. Depends on what time
2 you pick it up as the time as to the time usually
3 it's due in the next day.
4 CUSTOMER: Okay. Hold on for a second.
5 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
6 (No voices on tape for several
7 seconds.)
8 CUSTOMER: Okay. I had to find out
9 what time we have to be at the airport tomorrow.
10 Can we be picked up in an hour and a
11 half?
12 SALESMAN: Sure. Just call us when
13 you're ready.
14 CUSTOMER: Okay.
15 SALESMAN: Can I have your name,
16 please?
17 CUSTOMER: Yeah. I'll give you the
18 person who is going to be driving it. Ms.
19 Customer
20 SALESMAN: Customer?
21 CUSTOMER: Uh-huh. It's C-u-s-t-o-m-e-r.
22 SALESMAN: Customer?
23 CUSTOMER: Customer, C-u-s-t-o-m-e-r.
24 SALESMAN: You have the phone number?
25 CUSTOMER: I'm sorry. We're staying at
74
1 a friend's house. Let me see if I can find a phone
2 number here. Hold on.
3 (No voices on tape for several
4 seconds.)
5 CUSTOMER: Sir?
6 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
7 CUSTOMER: I'm sorry. She didn't leave
8 us -- they just left the house and they didn't --
9 SALESMAN: That's okay. That's okay.
10 Just give us a call before you want to get picked
11 up.
12 CUSTOMER: Okay. Great.
13 SALESMAN: Okay? We'll come over and
14 get you.
15 CUSTOMER: Okay.
16 SALESMAN: All right.
17 CUSTOMER: Bye-bye.
18 SALESMAN: Bye.
19 ---o0o---
20 ///
21 ///
22 ///
23
24
25
75
1 CONVERSATION 15
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: How you doing? You got any
7 cars rent (inaudible)?
8 SALESMAN: Yes, sir. For how long?
9 CUSTOMER: Oh, just for the day.
10 SALESMAN: Local use here in L.A. or
11 are you taking a trip someplace?
12 CUSTOMER: I'll be taking it out of the
13 county.
14 SALESMAN B: Oh. Where are you headed
15 to?
16 CUSTOMER: Out to Joshua Tree.
17 SALESMAN: And then back again.
18 Are you at least 25?
19 CUSTOMER: Yes.
20 SALESMAN: And you have a credit card
21 in your name?
22 CUSTOMER: Someone else will be doing
23 the renting for this.
24 SALESMAN: Okay. Are they at least 25.
25 CUSTOMER: Yes.
76
1 SALESMAN: You sound like you might
2 need something with free unlimited miles. All of
3 my cars get 100 miles free per day, and after that
4 it's 20 cents a mile.
5 CUSTOMER: Ah, I see.
6 SALESMAN: Which I don't have.
7 CUSTOMER: All right. Well, I need
8 something with completely unlimited mileage.
9 SALESMAN: Yeah. That we don't offer.
10 CUSTOMER: All right. Thank you very
11 much.
12 SALESMAN: You're welcome.
13 ---o0o---
14 ///
15 ///
16 ///
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
77
1 CONVERSATION 16
2 between Woman and Friend:
3
4 (Phone ringing.)
5 (Inaudible voices.)
6 WOMAN: $3 worth of gas (inaudible).
7 FRIEND: Hello?
8 WOMAN: Hi. How you doing?
9 FRIEND: Oh, fine. I'm on the other
10 line. How is it going?
11 WOMAN: I'm fine. I'm at the Rent a
12 Wreck.
13 FRIEND: Yes.
14 WOMAN: And I just put $3 worth of gas
15 in the truck. It's not half full.
16 FRIEND: Yes.
17 WOMAN: When you get off the phone,
18 can you come over?
19 FRIEND: I'll come over in -- as soon
20 as I finish my phone call.
21 WOMAN: Okay. I'll wait for you.
22 FRIEND: At Rent a Wreck.
23 WOMAN: Yeah.
24 FRIEND: Yeah. Wait for me.
25 WOMAN: Okay.
78
1 FRIEND: Bye.
2 WOMAN: Bye.
3 ---o0o---
4 ///
5 ///
6 ///
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
79
1 CONVERSATION 17
2 between Woman and Mother and Customer:
3
4 OPERATOR: AT&T. This is Lenora with
5 AT&T. How may I help you?
6 WOMAN: Collect call from Woman.
7 OPERATOR: Thank you for using AT&T.
8 WOMAN: You're welcome.
9 (Phone ringing.)
10 OPERATOR: This is the AT&T operator
11 with a collect call.
12 Who is calling, please?
13 WOMAN: Woman.
14 MOTHER: Woman (inaudible).
15 OPERATOR: All right.
16 MOTHER: Thank you.
17 WOMAN: Hi, Mother.
18 MOTHER: How you doing, Darling?
19 WOMAN: I'm doing fine. Doing fine.
20 MOTHER: Did you get everything taken
21 care of?
22 WOMAN: Yep.
23 MOTHER: That's great.
24 WOMAN: I'm at the Rent a Wreck right
25 now returning the truck.
80
1 MOTHER: Oh. That's fantastic.
2 WOMAN: Yeah. Mitch and --
3 MOTHER: (Inaudible.)
4 WOMAN: Huh?
5 MOTHER: Who got the truck?
6 WOMAN: Frank.
7 MOTHER: Oh. That's excellent.
8 WOMAN: And Mitch and Bob helped me
9 move all the stuff.
10 MOTHER: Yeah. It's all moved now?
11 WOMAN: Yeah. Everything.
12 MOTHER: You like your new place?
13 WOMAN: Yep. Love it.
14 MOTHER: That's great.
15 WOMAN: It's beautiful. It has
16 beautiful cabinets in the kitchen.
17 MOTHER: What I wanted to say was this.
18 WOMAN: What?
19 MOTHER: I want you to get another
20 phone.
21 WOMAN: I am.
22 MOTHER: Listen to me now.
23 WOMAN: Okay.
24 MOTHER: And I want no long-distance
25 calls.
81
1 WOMAN: Okay.
2 MOTHER: When you order it, tell them
3 you don't want any long distance calls.
4 WOMAN: Okay.
5 MOTHER: You don't want to be able to
6 even put any on there.
7 WOMAN: Okay.
8 MOTHER: Okay?
9 WOMAN: Yeah, that's the best way to
10 do.
11 MOTHER: That's the way -- 'cause
12 that's the way Amanda does it.
13 WOMAN: Okay. How's she doing?
14 MOTHER: I haven't talked to her today.
15 WOMAN: Okay.
16 MOTHER: But I'm sure she's doing fine.
17 WOMAN: I haven't called there in -- I
18 haven't even called Boston at all.
19 MOTHER: Oh, you don't need to.
20 WOMAN: Unh-unh.
21 MOTHER: It's not necessary.
22 WOMAN: No, it's not.
23 MOTHER: You don't need to make a lot
24 of long-distance calls with (inaudible). That's
25 what I want you to do. Get your phone where you
82
1 can't make long-distance calls. Somebody wants to
2 call you, let them call you. That way you'll be
3 able to take care of your bills because that will
4 get you all behind, all the different (inaudible)
5 stuff, you know?
6 WOMAN: Yeah.
7 MOTHER: So Frank's still there with
8 you?
9 WOMAN: He's going to be coming over
10 in a few minutes to pick me up.
11 MOTHER: Oh. You're -- he's over --
12 WOMAN: I'm at the truck place. I
13 just called him because I called him earlier but he
14 had stepped out, so I let him know that I was here.
15 The truck is not due back until 12:00, but I
16 brought it back 11:15.
17 MOTHER: Yeah. That's fantastic,
18 Norma. I'm glad --
19 WOMAN: Yeah. The place is nice.
20 It's really nice.
21 MOTHER: (Inaudible) today yet, have
22 you?
23 WOMAN: Uh-huh.
24 MOTHER: Oh, have you?
25 WOMAN: Yep.
83
1 MOTHER: Okay, because I was out
2 exercising. I went to work out.
3 WOMAN: You did?
4 MOTHER: Yeah.
5 WOMAN: Yep. So, anyway, (inaudible)
6 playing this game you drive.
7 MOTHER: Who?
8 WOMAN: Me.
9 MOTHER: Okay. Did you have enough
10 money?
11 WOMAN: Yeah, yeah.
12 MOTHER: Good.
13 WOMAN: Actually, what I did is I gave
14 Mitch and Bob $15 apiece for helping me move.
15 MOTHER: Why?
16 WOMAN: Because. That was a lot of
17 stuff. Mike, he cut his arm on the refrigerator.
18 MOTHER: I know what you're saying. I
19 know it's work, but at the same time do you have
20 something left?
21 WOMAN: Yeah. We had everything we
22 needed.
23 MOTHER: Okay.
24 WOMAN: We had everything we needed.
25 MOTHER: Because I know what --
84
1 WOMAN: What?
2 MOTHER: I know what's going to happen
3 now is when you get your other money you got to
4 send it to me because I go to court on Wednesday.
5 WOMAN: Right.
6 MOTHER: So as soon as you get it
7 Monday, put it in the mail.
8 WOMAN: I'll put it right -- I'll put
9 it on the Western Union.
10 MOTHER: Hum?
11 WOMAN: You want to -- well, I better
12 put it in the mail, huh?
13 MOTHER: Yeah, because it costs -- I
14 mean, I know you --
15 WOMAN: They have a thing called
16 Moneygram. They have a thing called Moneygram
17 that's less than Western Union, and it only takes
18 like five minutes. Somebody told me about it
19 yesterday.
20 MOTHER: Uh-huh.
21 WOMAN: It's only like $6 every $50.
22 MOTHER: Well, still, that's just as
23 high. That's just as high. That's what it
24 cost -- because once you sent $200, I only paid $29
25 to send that.
85
1 WOMAN: Oh, really?
2 MOTHER: Yeah. So that's the same
3 thing.
4 WOMAN: Okay. Well, I'll make sure I
5 get that rate.
6 MOTHER: Okay. (Inaudible) I go to
7 court Wednesday.
8 WOMAN: Okay. Okey-dokey.
9 MOTHER: So are your buddies doing,
10 Mike and your other friend?
11 WOMAN: Fine.
12 MOTHER: (Inaudible).
13 WOMAN: Yep. I have to --
14 MOTHER: You ever talk to Eunice.
15 WOMAN: Unh-unh, I didn't talk to
16 Eunice..
17 MOTHER: Is Mitch there with you?
18 WOMAN: Not here right now.
19 MOTHER: Oh, okay.
20 WOMAN: Unh-unh. He's going to go out
21 of town tonight.
22 MOTHER: Oh, is he?
23 WOMAN: Yeah.
24 MOTHER: Well, it was nice of him to
25 help you. That's the reason it's good that you
86
1 have good friends.
2 WOMAN: Yep. I know who my real
3 friends are.
4 MOTHER: Uh-huh. And how is John
5 doing?
6 WOMAN: He's doing great. His show
7 was really fabulous the other night.
8 MOTHER: Oh, he had a job?
9 WOMAN: Yeah. Yep, and a week before
10 that, too. It was jammin'. I didn't go to the
11 first one, but I went to this last one, and he got
12 off.
13 MOTHER: I know he did.
14 WOMAN: Yep. And then his manager and
15 the people that's supposed to pay him ducked out
16 the back door.
17 MOTHER: What?
18 WOMAN: That's the second time, the
19 second show on the road they didn't pay him.
20 MOTHER: Oh, my God!
21 WOMAN: And the kind of show that he
22 put on, he's worth a lot of money.
23 MOTHER: He's (inaudible).
24 WOMAN: Yeah. And the band. They had
25 a live band, and they was tight. They were real
87
1 tight. Yep.
2 Well, anyway, I'm on this business
3 phone up here at the Rent a Wreck, but I can call
4 you back if you want.
5 Hold on. Hold on just a second. Hold
6 on just a second, okay?
7 MOTHER: Okay. Customer get to talk to
8 me?
9 WOMAN: Hold on. Yeah. Hold on just
10 a second.
11 Is it okay if I talk to my mom for just
12 a few more minutes? It's on her phone (inaudible).
13 Hello, Mother. They said I could talk
14 for a few more minutes.
15 MOTHER: Okay.
16 WOMAN: Yep. So, anyway -- I'm making
17 sweet and sour chicken for dinner.
18 MOTHER: What did you say?
19 WOMAN: I'm making sweet and sour
20 chicken for dinner.
21 MOTHER: Oh, I'm standing here eating
22 pickles.
23 WOMAN: Are you?
24 MOTHER: I had sweet and sour pickles.
25 WOMAN: Do you want me to tell you how
88
1 to make some real good sweet-and-sour chicken, real
2 quick?
3 MOTHER: Oh, I don't cook much chicken,
4 because I don't like touching raw chicken.
5 WOMAN: Huh?
6 MOTHER: I don't touch raw chicken.
7 WOMAN: Huh?
8 MOTHER: I don't touch raw chickens.
9 WOMAN: Garage? Oh, okay.
10 MOTHER: I don't cook chicken.
11 WOMAN: Well, what you could do is go
12 to Kentucky Fried Chicken.
13 MOTHER: Uh-huh.
14 WOMAN: And get you -- whatever kind
15 of piece you want. Go to the grocery store. Look
16 over by the spaghetti sauce, and they have sweet
17 and sour sauce in a bottle, and get you some orange
18 honey --
19 MOTHER: Uh-huh.
20 WOMAN: -- and put it in the sweet and
21 sour sauce.
22 MOTHER: Yeah.
23 WOMAN: And take some pineapple, some
24 chunk pineapples in their own juice.
25 MOTHER: Yeah.
89
1 WOMAN: And put them in the sweet and
2 sour sauce, and cut up some green pepper and some
3 onion. Put it in the sweet and source sauce and
4 get it hot.
5 MOTHER: Yes.
6 WOMAN: And then dip the chicken down
7 in it.
8 MOTHER: You can tell me about that
9 later on when you get home, when you get your
10 phone.
11 WOMAN: Okay.
12 MOTHER: But what I wanted to ask you
13 about now is this guy that ran off with
14 what's-his-name's money, I'm glad you're not
15 working for him.
16 WOMAN: Yeah. Me -- that's a crime he
17 did that, but he won't do that again.
18 MOTHER: Yeah. That's ridiculous.
19 WOMAN: It really is.
20 MOTHER: And then you got Wally
21 working with you.
22 WOMAN: Yep.
23 MOTHER: And at least he's honest. Do
24 you know what I mean?
25 WOMAN: Um-hmm.
90
1 MOTHER: Yeah. So it won't be long
2 your music will be going, and I hope it will be
3 going pretty soon because last week we had a guy
4 with 25 years get fired, for almost no reason at
5 all. He didn't even do anything.
6 WOMAN: Really?
7 MOTHER: Yeah. But you got to really
8 get yourself and your music --
9 WOMAN: Everything is rolling right
10 along.
11 MOTHER: That's right, and, you know,
12 the music -- you put it into the movies and stuff
13 and everything.
14 Oh, and what is -- no, don't tell me
15 the -- well, I guess you could tell me.
16 WOMAN: Um --
17 MOTHER: No. Don't tell me his name
18 right now.
19 WOMAN: Okay. All right.
20 MOTHER: That's better.
21 WOMAN: All right.
22 MOTHER: You don't even (inaudible) --
23 WOMAN: Okay. Well, I guess I'll get
24 on off this phone. I love you so much.
25 MOTHER: Oh, I love you too, Darling.
91
1 I'll be here the rest of the day.
2 WOMAN: Okay.
3 MOTHER: All day tomorrow, because it's
4 going to be real cold here with the high winds up
5 to about 30, 40 miles an hour.
6 WOMAN: Oh, okay.
7 MOTHER: And about 5 degrees.
8 WOMAN: All right. They're gonna --
9 MOTHER: (Inaudible) the ones
10 (inaudible) --
11 WOMAN: Okay. They're gonna put my
12 mail at the post office, so I'll pick it up. As
13 soon as I can get it, I'll put it in the mail.
14 MOTHER: (Inaudible) resolve your --
15 WOMAN: Excuse me. Unh-unh. On
16 Monday it'll come.
17 MOTHER: Okay.
18 WOMAN: Customer, can you come here,
19 Precious? Mother wants to talk to you.
20 MOTHER: Well, call me and call me
21 later on, too, if you --
22 CUSTOMER: Hello?
23 MOTHER: Hello, Darling. How's
24 Mother's baby?
25 CUSTOMER: (Inaudible.)
92
1 MOTHER: How's mother's baby doing?
2 CUSTOMER: What you at?
3 MOTHER: How you doing, Darling? How
4 are you?
5 CUSTOMER: Fine.
6 MOTHER: I love you.
7 CUSTOMER: I do too.
8 MOTHER: You know who I talked to? I
9 talked to Rachael (phonetic) the other day, your
10 baby sitter.
11 CUSTOMER: Uh-huh.
12 MOTHER: Remember Rachael?
13 CUSTOMER: Uh-huh.
14 MOTHER: And Paula?
15 CUSTOMER: Uh-huh.
16 MOTHER: They came over to work the
17 other day and they asked me about you.
18 CUSTOMER: Oh.
19 MOTHER: And they want to know if you
20 can come home for the summer.
21 WOMAN: Hello. Mother?
22 MOTHER: Um-hmm.
23 WOMAN: Okay.
24 MOTHER: Yeah. Rachael her baby
25 sitter, came over to the plant the other day with
93
1 her mom.
2 WOMAN: Um-hmm.
3 MOTHER: And she wanted to know if
4 Darla could come home for the summer.
5 WOMAN: Oh, really?
6 MOTHER: Yeah. She wanted to take care
7 of her for the summer.
8 WOMAN: Oh, really?
9 MOTHER: For you, but things will work
10 out, you know.
11 WOMAN: Yeah. That's up to you,
12 Mother.
13 MOTHER: Huh?
14 WOMAN: That's up to you, if you do.
15 MOTHER: Yeah, I know. You know, you
16 can do -- have your business, I think, better with
17 her out there, right now, but, like I say, like I
18 told Rachael, I want to come out there in May if I
19 can, but --
20 WOMAN: Yeah. I wish you would.
21 MOTHER: You know, and then that way --
22 WOMAN: We have --
23 MOTHER: -- bring Darla back with me
24 (inaudible) I can.
25 WOMAN: Okay.
94
1 MOTHER: But I gotta have money yet to
2 get out there yet. I don't have money -- I haven't
3 (inaudible) money to pay my taxes yet.
4 WOMAN: Mom, you know, I can get you a
5 plane ticket?
6 MOTHER: Huh?
7 WOMAN: I can get you a plane ticket.
8 MOTHER: A what?
9 WOMAN: I can get you a ticket.
10 MOTHER: Oh, yeah. Well, that will be
11 great.
12 WOMAN: Okay.
13 MOTHER: That would be fine.
14 WOMAN: Let me work on that.
15 MOTHER: Okay, Dear. You do that.
16 WOMAN: Okay.
17 MOTHER: And that's the week of November the
18 9th.
19 WOMAN: That would be for your
20 birthday.
21 MOTHER: Yeah. Novcember the 9th through
22 the -- that's my birthday.
23 WOMAN: Yeah. (Inaudible).
24 MOTHER: That will be fine.
25 WOMAN: And then you don't have to
95
1 drive, either.
2 MOTHER: Yeah.
3 WOMAN: Okay. I'll work on that.
4 MOTHER: Okay. But Eva (inaudible)
5 needs a ticket and I need one for her, too.
6 WOMAN: Yeah, I know. Well, I'll have
7 to just work on that --
8 MOTHER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) will
9 need one with her (inaudible) she's --
10 WOMAN: Yes, you would, because when I
11 had brought her back before, I had to pay four
12 fifty, but that was just because it was --
13 MOTHER: But even so, if I get out
14 there even --
15 WOMAN: -- last minute.
16 MOTHER: -- (simultaneous, inaudible)
17 will be good, but I still would like to get out
18 there because I could still get to come back again,
19 and that's another thing too.
20 WOMAN: What?
21 MOTHER: I'll get to come back again in
22 July if I have money.
23 WOMAN: Yeah. I hope so.
24 MOTHER: I'll get my pay, and I'll come
25 back in July.
96
1 WOMAN: Yeah. Hopefully
2 (simultaneous, inaudible) --
3 MOTHER: (Simultaneous, inaudible)
4 then, I could bring her back with me and
5 (simultaneous, inaudible) --
6 WOMAN: I wish you could bring
7 (inaudible).
8 MOTHER: That would be excellent,
9 wouldn't it?
10 WOMAN: Huh?
11 MOTHER: That would be excellent,
12 wouldn't it?
13 WOMAN: Yep. Okay. Well --
14 MOTHER: Just be two months, keep her
15 here, and then bring her back.
16 WOMAN: Yeah. That would be perfect.
17 MOTHER: Yeah, but I gotta have money
18 to do things like that.
19 WOMAN: Okay. Well, let's work on
20 that.
21 MOTHER: Okay, then.
22 WOMAN: I told you they called me back
23 for Sony Pictures.
24 MOTHER: Yeah. That's excellent,
25 honey. That is fantastic, because, I'm telling
97
1 you, things are getting rough up here.
2 WOMAN: Okay. Well --
3 MOTHER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) this
4 job 25 years. I said to myself, "I lose my job,
5 and Sam hasn't even made it yet, we won't have
6 nothing."
7 WOMAN: Yep.
8 MOTHER: You know what I mean? I can't
9 lean on you right now, and you won't be able to
10 lean on me then.
11 WOMAN: Okay. Hey, Mother --
12 MOTHER: (Simultaneous, inaudible) now.
13 WOMAN: All right. Well, we'll do
14 that, then.
15 MOTHER: All right --
16 WOMAN: I love you so much.
17 MOTHER: Don't forget to put it in the
18 mail. I love you too.
19 WOMAN: Okay. I'll talk to you later.
20 MOTHER: I'll talk to you later,
21 Darling.
22 WOMAN: All right. Bye.
23 MOTHER: Bye. Kiss Darla for me.
24 ---o0o---
25 ///
98
1 CONVERSATION 18
2 between Salesman and Customers 1 and 2:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER 1: You speak Spanish?
7 SALESMAN: No.
8 CUSTOMER 1: I no speak English. And
9 you --
10 CUSTOMER 2: Hello?
11 SALESMAN: Hello.
12 CUSTOMER 2: Do you speak Spanish?
13 SALESMAN: No.
14 CUSTOMER 2: Well, I have a rent a car
15 the Friday before.
16 SALESMAN: Okay.
17 CUSTOMER 2: The number is 00000.
18 I'm -- I want to stay with the car for
19 another days.
20 SALESMAN: Oh, okay. One minute,
21 please, okay? Okay. One second. Thank you.
22 (Music playing.)
23 RADIO ANNOUNCER: Good afternoon, and
24 thank you for listening. I'm Don Barley --
25 SALESMAN: Is this for -- hello?
99
1 CUSTOMER 2: Hello.
2 SALESMAN: Yes. Is this for Mr.
3 Customer?
4 CUSTOMER 2: Joaquin Estes.
5 SALESMAN: Yeah. Okay. So for one
6 more day?
7 CUSTOMER 2: I don't know how many
8 days. How do you charge for a day?
9 SALESMAN: Well, how much longer does
10 he need it?
11 CUSTOMER 2: Well, you charge 169 for a
12 week.
13 SALESMAN: Yes, um-hmm.
14 CUSTOMER 2: It's the same?
15 SALESMAN: Yes.
16 CUSTOMER 2: And if I don't rent for a
17 completely week, it's the same?
18 SALESMAN: Oh, I understand. It's
19 49.95 for the day.
20 CUSTOMER 2: 49.95 for a day?
21 SALESMAN: Yes.
22 CUSTOMER 2: But it's too expensive.
23 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
24 CUSTOMER 2: Well --
25 SALESMAN: How much longer does he need
100
1 it?
2 CUSTOMER 2: Sorry?
3 SALESMAN: How many more days does he
4 need it?
5 CUSTOMER 2: I don't know but have two,
6 three, four. I don't know. I call you again.
7 SALESMAN: Okay. Because if -- I'll
8 tell you what. If he has it --
9 (No voices in tape for several
10 seconds.)
11 SALESMAN: If he keeps the car for four
12 days --
13 CUSTOMER 2: For four days?
14 SALESMAN: Okay? Then it would be 169.
15 CUSTOMER 2: 169.
16 SALESMAN: For four more days or a
17 week.
18 CUSTOMER 2: Four days for --
19 SALESMAN: Say four days or a week is
20 the same.
21 CUSTOMER 2: For four days and one week
22 it's the same?
23 SALESMAN: It's the same, yes.
24 CUSTOMER 2: Well, I talk to my
25 husband, and I call you again.
101
1 SALESMAN: Okay.
2 CUSTOMER 2: Thank you.
3 SALESMAN: Thank you. Bye-bye.
4 CUSTOMER 2: Bye-bye.
5 ---o0o---
6 ///
7 ///
8 ///
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
102
1 CONVERSATION 19
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help you,
5 please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yeah. Hi. Who is this?
7 SALESMAN: This is SALESMAN. Who's this?
8 CUSTOMER: Salesman, this is Dion
9 Smith in -- I don't know if you know. It would be
10 a tan Honda.
11 SALESMAN: Yes, Dion.
12 CUSTOMER: You know me?
13 SALESMAN: No, I don't, but I can help
14 you.
15 CUSTOMER: Okay. I just rented the
16 car last month on the 13th.
17 Hello?
18 SALESMAN: Yes, Dion.
19 CUSTOMER: Okay. And today's the
20 13th, and I have to return the car.
21 SALESMAN: Yes, sir.
22 CUSTOMER: Okay. And there was a
23 question that I wanted to ask you.
24 One guy over there that I (inaudible)
25 the car, rented the car from, he told me that the
103
1 second month, if I should want to keep it, he'll
2 charge me $300 for it.
3 SALESMAN: Okay, and who was that?
4 CUSTOMER: I really don't know. I
5 think Tom?
6 SALESMAN: Okay. Tom. Tom is off today,
7 I'm afraid.
8 CUSTOMER: Is David there?
9 SALESMAN: David's here, but he's with a
10 customer.
11 I'll tell you what. Can I have David
12 give you a phone call right back?
13 CUSTOMER: No. I'm calling from a
14 pay phone here.
15 SALESMAN: Well, he's with a customer
16 right now. You want to call him back in about ten
17 minutes?
18 CUSTOMER: If -- you have to get an
19 okay from him in order for that?
20 SALESMAN: Yeah, because I've never heard
21 of that.
22 CUSTOMER: Yeah, because I rented
23 the car for $400, and then he said $300.
24 SALESMAN: Okay. Well, I believe what
25 you're saying, but, you know, to verify that, Dave
104
1 would have to --
2 CUSTOMER: Why don't you do this.
3 Why don't you, in case I call back and David's
4 still not around, why don't you run out and ask
5 him, and I'll call back in ten minutes.
6 SALESMAN: Sounds good.
7 CUSTOMER: Okay. Who am I speaking
8 to?
9 SALESMAN: Salesman.
10 CUSTOMER: Salesman. Okay.
11 SALESMAN: Do you have the car keys
12 nearby?
13 CUSTOMER: The car keys? Yeah.
14 SALESMAN: Yeah. Give me the three-digit
15 number on the key ring, please.
16 CUSTOMER: Okay. Number 287.
17 SALESMAN: Okay. I'll find out for you.
18 CUSTOMER: Okay. Find out --
19 SALESMAN: Thank you.
20 CUSTOMER: -- tell him that the car,
21 this car, if I should --
22 SALESMAN: Pardon me (inaudible).
23 CUSTOMER: Hello?
24 SALESMAN: I'm here.
25 CUSTOMER: Yeah. If I should want
105
1 to keep a car from you guys, this one I have to
2 exchange because this one has a bad oil leak.
3 SALESMAN: Okay. We'll work it out. Oh,
4 it's an oil leak.
5 CUSTOMER: Oil, leak, yeah.
6 SALESMAN: Okay.
7 CUSTOMER: And I've spotted in the
8 last four days. I brought it in last week --
9 SALESMAN: Okay. Just give us a call
10 back in about ten minutes and we'll get it worked
11 out for you.
12 CUSTOMER: Thank you.
13 SALESMAN: Thank you.
14 ---o0o---
15 ///
16 ///
17 ///
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
106
1 CONVERSATION 20
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help you,
5 please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yes. Hi. Do you have any vans
7 or pickups available for this afternoon?
8 SALESMAN: I have a cargo van.
9 CUSTOMER: Okay. How much is that?
10 SALESMAN: That runs 39.95, and it's 20
11 cents a mile.
12 CUSTOMER: Where are you located?
13 SALESMAN: 12333 Pico.
14 Do you plan on driving locally around
15 L.A.?
16 CUSTOMER: I want -- yeah. Just Santa
17 Monica.
18 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
19 CUSTOMER: Okay. And that's -- okay, so
20 it's empty. It doesn't have seats in it or -
21 SALESMAN: No. Yeah. It's empty van.
22 CUSTOMER: Oh. What I have to do to move
23 a small couch (inaudible) here. Will that do it?
24 SALESMAN: That would do it, um-hmm.
25 CUSTOMER: Okay. Would you hold it for
107
1 me? I'll be over to pick it up.
2 SALESMAN: What's your name?
3 CUSTOMER: CUSTOMER, D-a-b-n-e-y
4 SALESMAN: D --
5 CUSTOMER: a-b-n-e-y
6 SALESMAN: Okay.
7 CUSTOMER: All right. And, again, you
8 said you're at 1233 Pico?
9 SALESMAN: 12333 Pico.
10 CUSTOMER: Okay. And what's your cross
11 street?
12 SALESMAN: Centinela, right on the
13 corner.
14 CUSTOMER: Okay. What (inaudible).
15 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck (inaudible).
16 CUSTOMER: Fine.
17 SALESMAN: Okay.
18 ---o0o---
19 ///
20 ///
21 ///
22
23
24
25
108
1 CONVERSATION 21
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help you,
5 please?
6 CUSTOMER: Hi. What (inaudible) you
7 located?
8 SALESMAN: My address, 12333 Pico.
9 CUSTOMER: 12333 Pico?
10 SALESMAN: Correct.
11 CUSTOMER: And what's the nearest cross
12 street?
13 SALESMAN: Right on the corner of
14 Centinela, sir.
15 CUSTOMER: Centinela. Thank you, sir.
16 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
17 ///
18 ///
19 ///
20
21
22
23
24
25
109
1 CONVERSATION 22
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yes, sir. I'm
7 interested -- I want to get some rates for renting
8 a car in Los Angeles towards the end of July.
9 Be picking up July 25th and returning
10 August 1st.
11 SALESMAN: Okay. Is it local driving
12 or long distance?
13 CUSTOMER: Local.
14 SALESMAN: Okay. And your --
15 CUSTOMER: We might go to San Diego,
16 but I don't know how --
17 SALESMAN: That's fine.
18 Now, you're at least 25 and you have a
19 credit card of your own?
20 CUSTOMER: Yes.
21 SALESMAN: Okay. Let's see. Hit me
22 with that date, that July date?
23 CUSTOMER: July 25th and return
24 August 1st.
25 SALESMAN: All right. Let me see how
110
1 many days in August here.
2 CUSTOMER: It would be seven days.
3 SALESMAN: Seven days? Okay.
4 What size car do you need?
5 CUSTOMER: You know, I don't -- there's
6 just two of us, so probably a small car.
7 SALESMAN: Okay. No problem. I would
8 have cars at $149 per week, and if you're flying
9 into L.A. we provide free local pickup service from
10 the airport too.
11 CUSTOMER: Oh, okay. Oh, you guys
12 don't have an office at the airport?
13 SALESMAN: Not at the airport. We're
14 about five miles north.
15 CUSTOMER: And is that mileage, no
16 mileage?
17 SALESMAN: You get 500 miles free for
18 the week.
19 CUSTOMER: All right.
20 SALESMAN: And San Diego is about 120
21 miles from L.A.
22 CUSTOMER: Right. Okay. Great. Okay.
23 We're just trying to --
24 SALESMAN: Okay.
25 CUSTOMER: (Simultaneous, inaudible)
111
1 right now. Thank you.
2 SALESMAN: Thanks for calling.
3 Bye-bye.
4 ---o0o---
5 ///
6 ///
7 ///
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
112
1 CONVERSATION 23
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yeah. I need to know what
7 your rates are. I need to rent a car for about a
8 week.
9 SALESMAN: Starting when, please?
10 CUSTOMER: Well, possibly starting
11 today.
12 SALESMAN: Okay. No problem.
13 Are you going to be the only person
14 driving?
15 CUSTOMER: Yes. Well, I'm really
16 calling for my boyfriend.
17 SALESMAN: Okay.
18 CUSTOMER: His car blew up.
19 SALESMAN: Oh, I see.
20 CUSTOMER: And he needs it for a week,
21 and he'll be the only one driving it.
22 SALESMAN: Okay. That's great. Now,
23 he's at least 25?
24 CUSTOMER: Yes. He's much older than
25 that.
113
1 SALESMAN: And he has a credit card of
2 his own, I guess, right?
3 CUSTOMER: Yes.
4 SALESMAN: Okay. Do you know what size
5 car he wants?
6 CUSTOMER: I think probably your
7 cheapest model.
8 SALESMAN: Okay. We would have them
9 starting at $129 per week.
10 CUSTOMER: 129 a week.
11 SALESMAN: Yeah. And if he needs to be
12 picked up, if he's not too far, we do provide free
13 local pick up service, too.
14 CUSTOMER: Oh, great. And what time do
15 you close?
16 SALESMAN: We close at 4:00. We can
17 pick him up as late as 3:30.
18 CUSTOMER: As late as 3:30.
19 SALESMAN: Yeah.
20 CUSTOMER: And --
21 SALESMAN: Do you know what area he's
22 going to be in?
23 CUSTOMER: We live in Santa Monica.
24 SALESMAN: Oh, that's okay.
25 CUSTOMER: Where are you located?
114
1 SALESMAN: I'm just on the other side
2 of Santa Monica, Pico and Centinela.
3 CUSTOMER: Pico and Centinela.
4 SALESMAN: Yeah. That's three blocks
5 west of Bundy.
6 CUSTOMER: Three blocks what of Bundy?
7 SALESMAN: Three blocks west of Bundy.
8 CUSTOMER: Oh. West of Bundy
9 SALESMAN: On Pico. Yeah.
10 CUSTOMER: Okay. That's not too far
11 from us.
12 SALESMAN: Did you want us to hold one
13 for him?
14 CUSTOMER: He wanted me to check the
15 prices.
16 SALESMAN: Okay.
17 CUSTOMER: And I guess they go from 129
18 a week up.
19 SALESMAN: Yeah. Um-hmm.
20 CUSTOMER: Okay. I will get back to
21 you within the hour or so.
22 SALESMAN: No problem. Thanks for
23 calling.
24 CUSTOMER: Thanks a lot. Bye-bye.
25 ---o0o---
115
1 CONVERSATION 24
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help you,
5 please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yes. Do you all rent to
7 persons under 25?
8 SALESMAN: How old are you?
9 CUSTOMER: 21.
10 SALESMAN: 21. Do you have a credit card
11 in your name?
12 CUSTOMER: Yes, sir.
13 SALESMAN: Yeah, we can help you.
14 CUSTOMER: Okay.
15 SALESMAN: Starting when did you need
16 that?
17 CUSTOMER: On Tuesday.
18 SALESMAN: For how long?
19 CUSTOMER: Just the day.
20 SALESMAN: Local use right here in L.A.,
21 or are you taking a trip out someplace?
22 CUSTOMER: I'm taking it out of town,
23 San Luis Obispo.
24 SALESMAN: San Luis Obispo and then back
25 again? Sure, I have a car available.
116
1 Being that you're under the age of 25,
2 it's an additional charge of $25 per day for the
3 rental car. The car itself will be 29.95 a day.
4 CUSTOMER: Okay.
5 SALESMAN: Plus the $10 charge.
6 CUSTOMER: Okay.
7 SALESMAN: You get 100 miles free per day
8 with the car.
9 CUSTOMER: Okay. And what is the
10 excess charge for --
11 SALESMAN: Beyond that will be 20 cents a
12 mile.
13 CUSTOMER: Okay. And what is your
14 insurance policy?
15 SALESMAN: The cars come with liability
16 free of charge. The collision damage waiver is
17 optional. It's $9 a day.
18 CUSTOMER: Okay. Great. Thanks so
19 much.
20 SALESMAN: You're welcome.
21 ---o0o---
22 ///
23 ///
24 ///
25
117
1 CONVERSATION 25
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Hello. Rent a Wreck. May I
5 help you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: Yeah. Hi. I just called
7 and you gave me a rate of $129 a week.
8 SALESMAN: Yes, ma'am.
9 CUSTOMER: Is that unlimited mileage or
10 do I have to pay for miles?
11 SALESMAN: We'll give you 500 miles a
12 week free.
13 CUSTOMER: 500 miles a week?
14 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
15 CUSTOMER: Thank you very much.
16 SALESMAN: Okay.
17 CUSTOMER: Bye.
18 ---o0o---
19 ///
20 ///
21 ///
22
23
24
25
118
1 CONVERSATION 26
2 between Salesman and Customer:
3
4 SALESMAN: Hello. Rent a Wreck. May I
5 help you, please?
6 CUSTOMER: I'm calling to see if you
7 guys happen to have any cars available.
8 SALESMAN: Today?
9 CUSTOMER: Yes.
10 SALESMAN: Sure. We have a few.
11 CUSTOMER: What's the cheapest ones
12 you have available?
13 SALESMAN: Okay. And when would you need
14 one? How long would you need one for? I'm sorry.
15 CUSTOMER: Actually, (inaudible)
16 probably until Monday.
17 SALESMAN: Monday. Okay. And you just
18 plan on driving locally and around Los Angeles with
19 the vehicle?
20 CUSTOMER: Yes, yes.
21 SALESMAN: And you're age 25 and older?
22 CUSTOMER: 23.
23 SALESMAN: 23. Okay. That's fine. Do
24 you have a major credit card (inaudible) your name,
25 sir?
119
1 CUSTOMER: Yes.
2 SALESMAN: Okay. When you get your car,
3 just the only thing, we have to charge you a $10
4 per day underage charge. We can get you a car.
5 What we have is 24.95 per day.
6 CUSTOMER: Really.
7 SALESMAN: Plus $10 a day underage.
8 CUSTOMER: All right. Because my car
9 is in the shop.
10 SALESMAN: Oh.
11 CUSTOMER: That's why.
12 SALESMAN: We can pick you up. Where are
13 you located right now?
14 CUSTOMER: Actually, see, I had a
15 U-Haul truck.
16 SALESMAN: Um-hmm.
17 CUSTOMER: And I have to return that,
18 and it's kind of near you guys.
19 SALESMAN: Okay.
20 CUSTOMER: I'll just walk over there.
21 I have to go to U-Haul on Olympic and -- what is
22 it? Centinela? I have to go over there, so you're
23 just down the block, right?
24 SALESMAN: We're not far.
25 CUSTOMER: Yeah.
120
1 SALESMAN: You want to book a
2 reservation, sir?
3 CUSTOMER: Yeah.
4 SALESMAN: Okay. Well, actually we can
5 pick you up there from the U-Haul place.
6 CUSTOMER: That's all right. I'll
7 walk.
8 SALESMAN: What is your name, please?
9 CUSTOMER: John.
10 SALESMAN: Your last name, John?
11 CUSTOMER: Starge, S-t-a-r-g-e
12 SALESMAN: And your phone number?
13 CUSTOMER: 310-316- --
14 SALESMAN: 316?
15 CUSTOMER: 5075.
16 SALESMAN: Okay. I'll have you set up.
17 And you know exactly where I'm at? I'm on
18 Centinela and Pico.
19 CUSTOMER: Okay. What kind of car is
20 this?
21 SALESMAN: Well, we got a few here that
22 you can choose from.
23 CUSTOMER: All right. Thanks.
24 SALESMAN: Okay.
25 ---o0o---
121
1 CONVERSATION 27
2 between Salesman and Man:
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help you,
5 please?
6 RESTAURANT MAN: It's ordered, sir.
7 SALESMAN: What -- okay. You ordered it?
8 MAN: Yeah.
9 SALESMAN: So what did you order?
10 MAN: Sandwiches.
11 SALESMAN: Okay. How many? I'm trying
12 to get a monetary figure here.
13 MAN: Okay. We got one -- quarter
14 sandwiches and a salad (inaudible) -- five things.
15 Could be like around 25 bucks.
16 SALESMAN: All right. That's cool. All
17 right.
18 Later.
19 ---o0o---
20 ///
21 ///
22 ///
23
24
25
122
1 CONVERSATION 28
2 between Salesman and (No response):
3
4 SALESMAN: (inaudible). May I help
5 you?
6 (Dial tone.)
7 ---o0o---
8 ///
9 ///
10 ///
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
123
1 CONVERSATION 29
2 between Salesman and Beth Meyer
3
4 SALESMAN: Rent a Wreck. May I help
5 you, please?
6 BETH MEYER: Yes. I called about an
7 hour ago and reserved a car, I guess --
8 SALESMAN: Okay.
9 BETH MEYER: -- under Beth Meyer.
10 SALESMAN: I'm sorry. What was that?
11 BETH MEYER: It was under Beth
12 Meyer
13 SALESMAN: Okay.
14 BETH MEYER: And can you come pick us
15 up now?
16 SALESMAN: Sure. Let me just get your
17 reservation out, okay?
18 BETH MEYER: Okay.
19 SALESMAN: One second, please.
20 We rented a car (inaudible) -- I mean,
21 I called her --
22 RADIO ANNOUNCER: Preliminary and the
23 wind. The two one fast ball again outside, high
24 and outside --
25 BETH MEYER: (Simultaneous,
124
1 inaudible) and pick up the car.
2 RADIO ANNOUNCER: -- and (inaudible)
3 ahead of the count, three balls, one strike.
4 SALESMAN: Okay, Liz. Where are you?
5 (End of Tape 1, Side A.)
6 ---o0o---
7 ///
8 ///
9 ///
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
125
1 (Tape 1, Side B begins
2
3 CONVERSATION 30
4 between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:
5
6 (Dial tone.)
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Hey, Ev.
8 MR. CHANDLER: Hi, Dave.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: How you doing?
10 Thanks for calling me back.
11 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. I'm in the car.
12 I'm on the way home.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
14 MR. CHANDLER: Where are you?
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'm at work.
16 MR. CHANDLER: You're at [tape
17 irregularity].
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: You want to come by
19 here?
20 MR. CHANDLER: No. I'm wasted, Man.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I'm -- we
22 gotta talk this out.
23 MR. CHANDLER: Nothing to talk about.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Of course we can talk it
25 out.
126
1 MR. CHANDLER: Just be there tomorrow
2 if you want to hear what I want to say. That's
3 all. And if they're not there, then there's
4 nothing that anybody has to say, and that's the end
5 of it.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask you
7 this:
8 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: What if like, say, June
10 and I are there?
11 MR. CHANDLER: No good.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?
13 MR. CHANDLER: They all have to be
14 there.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: They all have to be
16 there.
17 In fact, if anybody were missing, it
18 would be June that I wouldn't care the most.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Who?
20 MR. CHANDLER: June. The one that I
21 car the most about --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. How about if
23 Jordy and I go?
24 MR. CHANDLER: No. Jordy and you?
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
127
1 MR. CHANDLER: And me?
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: No.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?
5 MR. CHANDLER: That's silly. No.
6 Michael has to be there. Michael has to be there.
7 He's the main one. He's the one I want.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think
9 he's a bad guy?
10 MR. CHANDLER: Michael?
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: He's an evil guy. He's
13 worse than bad.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you
15 believe that?
16 MR. CHANDLER: Huh?
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why do you believe that?
18 MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence to
19 prove it.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: You'll believe it, too,
22 when you hear --
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Let me ask you
24 something. I mean, you trust me, right?
25 MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you
128
1 this way, Dave. Nobody in this world was allowed
2 to come between this family of June, me and Jordy.
3 That was the hard [tape irregularity] be the
4 opposite. That's evil. That's one reason why he's
5 evil.
6 I spoke to him about it, Dave. I even
7 told him that [tape irregularity] the family.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: When did you talk to
9 him?
10 MR. CHANDLER: About that?
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: Months ago. When I
13 first met him I told him that.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: That's the law. That's
16 the first thing he knew. Nobody's allowed to do
17 that. Now there's no family anymore.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: I mean
20 Jordy's -- Jordy's my life. Period.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: How does this help it.
22 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
23 inaudible) my life.
24 What?
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: How does this help it?
129
1 MR. CHANDLER: It doesn't. It doesn't.
2 I don't know how it'll help it. It can't hurt it
3 anymore. It's -- I have -- that's why I have
4 nothing to lose.
5 I made this really clear to them. If
6 they're all there, we could all sit and talk. If
7 they're not there --
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, let me ask --
9 okay.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- taking it out of my
11 hands, and there won't be any talking anymore.
12 They have a chance. They have a chance to talk it
13 out.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: If they're not in a
16 calm, peaceful manner --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- even said you can be
19 there. You could be there. I'm not going to do
20 anything with you there. Michael can come with 20
21 bodyguards and all with guns if he wants to. He
22 can even come there with his [tape irregularity].
23 I don't care. All I'm saying is everybody who's a
24 party to this (inaudible) sit down and talk about
25 it.
130
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I don't disagree
2 with that.
3 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: No, we're not. See,
5 now --
6 MR. CHANDLER: -- don't want to be
7 there, then they have made it to the point where I
8 can't talk to them about it --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: No.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- so I have to force
11 them to the table --
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, no. I don't
13 disagree with everyone sits down and talks about
14 it.
15 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that's what I'm
16 calling -- that's what I called him about. Hello?
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean, that was the
18 message on the machine?
19 MR. CHANDLER: No. The man -- yeah.
20 That was the message on the machine. It said
21 they'd better be there, because on the other times
22 they tried -- hello?
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
24 MR. CHANDLER: The other times I tried
25 to tell them that I needed to talk to them, all I
131
1 got was, "Go fuck yourself. We're not talking to
2 you."
3 So now I had to let them know and make
4 sure that they know they'd [tape irregularity]
5 they're gonna get hurt by it, so (inaudible) -- I
6 had to make [tape irregularity] if they don't sit
7 down and talk to me they're gonna get hurt. They
8 can't keep telling me to go fuck myself anymore.
9 They have to talk. I want to talk to them. I
10 don't want to hurt anybody. They're forcing me to
11 do it. They're forcing me to do it by refusing to
12 sit down and talk to me. That's all I ask for.
13 "You sit down and you talk to me [tape
14 irregularity] side of the story, I'll listen to
15 yours, we all sit down and see how it could be
16 resolved."
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So that's
18 there --
19 MR. CHANDLER: That's all I ask for.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but --
21 MR. CHANDLER: Michael can come with
22 all his bodyguards and his lawyer if he wants to.
23 I don't really care, as long as everything gets
24 aired out. That's it. And if I walk away
25 dissatisfied, then I'll take it to the next step.
132
1 That's all. If they walk away dissatisfied, they
2 have the right to do that, too. At least [tape
3 irregularity] nothing will get resolved except for
4 the fact that we'll agree to meet again and talk
5 about it.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: I don't know where it'll
8 go, but I'm saying is that when people -- when
9 you -- when people cut off communication totally,
10 you only have two choices: To forget about them,
11 or you get frustrated by their action. I can't
12 forget about them. I love them. That's it. I
13 don't like them. I still love Jordy, but I do not
14 like them because I do not like the people that
15 they've become, but I do love them, and because I
16 love them I don't want to see them [tape
17 irregularity]. That's why I was willing to talk.
18 I have nothing to gain by talking. If
19 I go through with this, I win big time. There's no
20 way that I lose. I've checked that out inside out.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: But when you say
22 "winning," what are you talking about, "winning"?
23 MR. CHANDLER: I will get everything I
24 want, and they will be totally -- they will be
25 destroyed forever. They will be destroyed. June
133
1 is gonna lose Jordy. She will have no right to
2 ever see him again.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: That's a fact, Dave.
5 That's what --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that help --
7 MR. CHANDLER: -- Michael the career
8 will be over.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Does that help Jordy?
10 MR. CHANDLER: Michael's career will be
11 over.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: And does that help
13 Jordy?
14 MR. CHANDLER: It's irrelevant to me.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but I mean the
16 bottom line is --
17 MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line to me
18 is, yes, June is harming him, and Michael is
19 harming him. I can prove that, and I will prove
20 that
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- and if they force me
23 to go to court about it, I will [tape
24 irregularity], and I will be granted custody. She
25 will have no rights whatsoever.
134
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Now, I'm willing to sit
3 down and talk to her. If she wants to tell me to
4 go fuck myself after that, she's welcome to do it,
5 and then she'll either be right or wrong. [tape
6 irregularity] I'll win, maybe I'll lose. I have
7 the [tape irregularity]
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: [tape irregularity] for
9 custody?
10 MR. CHANDLER: Forget the custody
11 thing. It's gonna go further than that.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: But what's the
13 bottom -- I mean, what is the bottom line, though?
14 MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom line is, I
16 mean, your responsibility and my responsibility --
17 MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line
18 (simultaneous, inaudible) what I want?
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: No --
20 MR. CHANDLER: Is that what you're
21 saying?
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I mean --
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- what I want?
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, what's our
25 responsibility in life, really?
135
1 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you don't have any
2 right --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: The kids is the number
4 one --
5 MR. CHANDLER: -- to discuss that.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: What?
7 MR. CHANDLER: You don't have any right
8 to discuss that.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?
10 MR. CHANDLER: You're a negligent
11 father. You don't have a right, by your own
12 admission before. You told me that you were
13 negligent.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: You were negligent to
16 Jordy, and you've been negligent to Kelly.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: In a court -- in a court
19 of law, June could prove you negligent in one flat
20 fucking second.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. So?
22 MR. CHANDLER: You don't have any right
23 to all of a sudden decide that you're going to be a
24 good father or have a conversation about what's
25 right to do. I've never condemned you for it. I
136
1 know what you're going through [tape irregularity]
2 that. I understand you have to stay away in order
3 to be a normal human being. I understand that, but
4 no one's gonna give a shit about that in court.
5 You and I live [tape irregularity] but
6 I'm still living through it every day at my office,
7 and it's just bad for me too, believe me, and I
8 understand you really well, and I know why [tape
9 irregularity] she'll make you look bad in one
10 second.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I don't disagree
12 with that.
13 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, this time
14 it's gonna be the other way around because
15 she -- you see, I love him so much that I'm willing
16 to destroy my own life to protect him --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- to do what I think is
19 the best thing to do, not just -- it's not what I
20 think. I've gotten professional [tape
21 irregularity] everybody agrees that the only thing
22 that was insane is that I didn't step in a long --
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: This is --
24 MR. CHANDLER: This is --
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: -- detrimental to him?
137
1 MR. CHANDLER: Extremely harmful to
2 him.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: Everybody agrees with
5 that. I mean, they -- it's their opinions that
6 have convinced me to not stay away.
7 You know, I'm not confrontational.
8 I've got an [tape irregularity] inclination to do
9 what you do, say, "Okay. Go fuck yourself. Go do
10 what you want to do, and, you know, call me some
11 day. I'll see you then. I got a [tape
12 irregularity]," but I've been so convinced by
13 professional opinions that I have been negligent in
14 not stepping in sooner that now it's made me
15 insane. Now I actually feel [tape irregularity] --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, I do, and I --
17 MR. CHANDLER: -- [tape irregularity]
18 more important than the money, if the kid's more
19 important that you are, and they're more important
20 than I am --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: And they are.
22 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Then --
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: But let me ask --
24 MR. CHANDLER: -- by action, Dave.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay, but --
138
1 MR. CHANDLER: Staying away from the
2 family is not a good way of indicating that you
3 care about your family. It's a copout, and you --
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I don't know if
5 it's a copout. It might be the --
6 MR. CHANDLER: My feeling is, Dave, my
7 feeling is that when you have really good
8 communication with somebody, you don't have to stay
9 away from them.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what happens when
11 you --
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- agree, but at least
13 you could talk. You know, as long as you're
14 talking, nobody's gonna get hurt. When the talking
15 stops, that's when people get hurt.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And that's what
17 happened with you?
18 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, that's what
19 happened with me. They won't return my phone
20 calls. June called me once last week.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: She told me to go fuck
23 myself. Not in those words.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: But you don't have to
139
1 say it in those words.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: But you know June.
3 MR. CHANDLER: I --
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know her
5 thing is that she has to get the last word in.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Well, she isn't this
7 time, Dave, and you want to know something --
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but you put her
9 down for that?
10 MR. CHANDLER: Do I put her down?
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: For that?
12 MR. CHANDLER: I never did before, but
13 when her getting her last word is now going to be
14 harmful to Jordy, yes, I am going to step in, and,
15 again, I'm not telling you this is my -- my opinion
16 was formed by --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- but this is my
19 perception of [tape irregularity] professional
20 opinions to make sure I wasn't going off the deep
21 end here.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: And all I'm telling you
24 is -- I've always said this to June, and I've said
25 this to Monique also, and I'll say this to anybody
140
1 I can. No matter what I do, you're wrong
2 automatically if you don't sit down and talk about
3 it, because my feeling is [tape irregularity] and
4 you [tape irregularity] talk anything will be
5 worked out. But as soon as you cut off
6 communication you only frustrate the other person.
7 And that makes -- and that makes you wrong [tape
8 irregularity] worse that way.
9 You say to them, "I don't care enough
10 about you to sit down and talk."
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't disagree with
12 that.
13 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that's all I was
14 asking. I've asked them for a month to sit down
15 and talk to me, and I'm very disturbed and very
16 concerned. I want them to hear my concerns.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: Let them just tell me
19 why I'm wrong. Let them just tell me that [tape
20 irregularity] detrimental, et cetera. Let them
21 just tell me that. And maybe I'll disagree with
22 them, and then we'll take it from there.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: But at least you can
24 talk about it.
25 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I mean, they will
141
1 not talk.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
3 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
4 inaudible) forced me --
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
6 MR. CHANDLER: What do I do? I mean,
7 in the opinion of these experts, I would be a
8 negligent father if I did not do what I am now
9 doing.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: In fact, in their
12 opinion I have been negligent not to put a stop to
13 [tape irregularity] opinion.
14 I happen to agree with them now. I
15 didn't agree with them at first.
16 Michael [tape irregularity] nice [tape
17 irregularity] --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: So why do you think he's
19 not nice?
20 MR. CHANDLER: Why? Because he broke
21 up the family, that's why.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: And he was put on notice
24 from the first sentence out of my mouth was,
25 "Michael, I think you're really a great guy.
142
1 You're welcome into the family, as long as you are
2 who you seem to be, but don't take anything [tape
3 irregularity]." I mean, that to me was the worst
4 thing anybody could do to me.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think he did it?
6 MR. CHANDLER: Well, Dave, if he wasn't
7 in the picture, everything would be as it was.
8 I'm not --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: But that's sort of --
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- saying that he did it
11 premeditatively, and I'm not saying he did it on
12 his own.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: I'm saying that he might
15 have -- it might have just evolved that way, and it
16 might have evolved that [tape irregularity] desire,
17 so I'm blaming all three of them, but when I come
18 to that [tape irregularity], it really makes me
19 hate June because the family was inviolate, [tape
20 irregularity] felt about it. There was nothing I
21 had.
22 I mean, you came in this family and
23 made it better. It was great. Someone else comes
24 along and breaks it up.
25 You know how [tape irregularity].
143
1 Okay. So do I [tape irregularity] coming into the
2 family who's going to do good things for the
3 family.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: But, I mean --
5 MR. CHANDLER: Michael divided and
6 conquered, Dave.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: He what?
8 MR. CHANDLER: He divided and
9 conquered.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
11 MR. CHANDLER: He did, Dave. He did.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh --
13 MR. CHANDLER: June and I agreed on the
14 issue, whether it was her side or my side. If we
15 both thought the same way [tape irregularity] any
16 frustration. The fact is we both do not think the
17 same way, and he -- and I sincerely believe that he
18 either consciously [tape irregularity] manipulated
19 that. I think he consciously manipulated that
20 because Michael Jackson [tape irregularity] the
21 smartest streetwise people --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- that I've ever met,
24 and if you sit down and have any long conversations
25 with him, [tape irregularity] that guy is extremely
144
1 bright.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: So is that good or bad?
3 MR. CHANDLER: That he's bright?
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: I think that if you use
6 it for bad then you're evil.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, do you think he's
8 sensitive?
9 MR. CHANDLER: Do I what?
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know him a
11 lot better than I know him. I don't know him. I
12 mean, I've talked to him a couple times, but --
13 MR. CHANDLER: I thought I knew him.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think he's
15 sensitive?
16 MR. CHANDLER: I think he's totally
17 insensitive. I think he's sensitive -- I think
18 he's an extremely selfish person.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that he
20 knows what was going on?
21 MR. CHANDLER: Of course he knows that.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, this is the
23 bottom line. The bottom line is I abandoned the
24 family.
25 MR. CHANDLER: What?
145
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: The bottom line is I
2 abandoned the family. That's the bottom line.
3 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
4 inaudible) line --
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: -- so this is --
6 MR. CHANDLER: The bottom line
7 is -- the bottom line is he took Jordy out of the
8 family with June's help.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, yes and no, but, I
10 mean, there's a lot of things, and I -- I mean,
11 you're bright, you're sensitive --
12 MR. CHANDLER: Why don't I put it this
13 way, Dave. If you were there all the time, living
14 in that house --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: It wouldn't have
16 happened.
17 MR. CHANDLER: That's right. It
18 wouldn't have even had a chance to happen.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: It wouldn't have
20 happened, and I -- it's all my fault.
21 MR. CHANDLER: No, it isn't all your
22 fault.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: It is definitely a
24 hundred percent my fault.
25 MR. CHANDLER: I'll tell you what.
146
1 Whenever you have an argument with somebody, when I
2 have an argument with Monique, when you have an
3 argument with June, if I have an argument with you,
4 it's rarely one sided. There's almost -- you know,
5 there's always two sides to every --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. There's ten sides
7 to every --
8 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
9 inaudible) you can't tell me, realistically, that
10 June didn't frustrate the hell out of you so many
11 times that you finally left the house just to be
12 sane, just to be alone and come back to your own
13 sanity to get anyplace with her.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I agree
15 with that completely, but the only thing is
16 what -- see, I haven't only done it with June. I
17 do it in every other relationship and in my work
18 relationships.
19 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then --
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: So it's my hangup.
21 MR. CHANDLER: -- problem with that,
22 then that problem has ultimately ended up bringing
23 the family to this point. But you're not solely to
24 blame for it. It doesn't mean that June was
25 still -- I didn't do anything that -- they didn't
147
1 have the right to take my kid away from me, to
2 break up the family.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
4 I'm in my garage. Can I call you back
5 from the house?
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: At the same number?
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
9 MR. CHANDLER: If I don't call you back
10 in five minutes it means it's off my pager. Call
11 me at the house.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
13 MR. CHANDLER: I'm in the garage right
14 now.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
16 MR. CHANDLER: Bye.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Bye.
18 ---o0o---
19 ///
20 ///
21 ///
22
23
24
25
148
1 CONVERSATION 31
2 between Dave Schwartz and Evan Chandler:
3
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Hi.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Hi. I'm on a cordless
6 phone, so let's not use --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Don't you have a regular
8 phone?
9 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, but it's in the
10 kitchen, and I don't want to go upstairs.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
12 MR. CHANDLER: I'm still wasted, Man.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Not as tired as me. Oh,
14 you're probably as tired as me.
15 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I mean, we just
16 don't -- we don't have to mention any names.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. If we could do
18 this: If -- I'm telling you, and you know
19 I -- just talking it out, I mean, I have a definite
20 communication problem in my -- I mean, what happens
21 is when I get frustrated or I -- I mean, I just
22 withdraw. I've been doing it forever. I mean,
23 I've done it forever with everything, and it works,
24 you know, for -- it works for me. I mean because I
25 get through it and it just works and then I'm back
149
1 and it's no --
2 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, except do you want
3 to know something? That can also be -- you think
4 that that's the best way to do something, but if
5 you look at it closely, I mean, I've always been
6 that way too. Nothing's really worked (inaudible)
7 confrontation, and nothing's as big a deal as it
8 seems [tape irregularity] --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Oh, yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- except -- and so you
11 back off, and everything sort of takes care of
12 itself --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, in time.
14 MR. CHANDLER: -- except in this time
15 my looking the other way and my failing to deal
16 with the issues have harmed my son greatly. I
17 believe that.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, are you talking
19 about harmed him in the relationship with you?
20 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that's for sure.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: But --
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- (inaudible) forever.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, I think
24 he's frustrated about me and maybe taking it out on
25 you.
150
1 MR. CHANDLER: No.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because -- no. He has
3 said a few things in the past. You know, I've
4 disappeared for, you know, long periods of time.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you have.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. And he has
7 mentioned -- you know, he's a real sensitive kid --
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you take
9 total blame for it? It's never one person's fault.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Now I'm telling you it's
11 my fault. I know it's my fault, and --
12 MR. CHANDLER: You see --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: -- whatever --
14 MR. CHANDLER: -- you think by doing
15 that you might be -- you might be doing a lot of
16 harm.
17 How many times can an [tape
18 irregularity] -- when there's two human beings
19 involved, there's two sides to the story. I mean,
20 it's automatic. Two people could witness the same
21 story in two different ways. What I'm saying is
22 that I was married to June. I've known June
23 since --
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. For a long time.
25 MR. CHANDLER: -- '71 or something like
151
1 that, so what I'm saying is that I know her really
2 well. I think I do. Maybe I don't. I guess I
3 don't because I suddenly saw a part of her -- a
4 side of her which I really hate.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they're into
6 survival.
7 MR. CHANDLER: What do you mean?
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: They're into survival --
9 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
10 inaudible) are you talking about? What do you mean
11 "survival"? Because why? What makes it -- what do
12 you mean?
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, they don't
14 know what's going on. I have made them -- June's
15 real macho --
16 MR. CHANDLER: That's exactly right.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: -- on the surface, and
18 underneath she's just insecure like all of us.
19 Everyone is.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Dave --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Everyone's insecure.
22 JFK was insecure. Everyone is.
23 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: That's the bottom line.
25 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Let's say they
152
1 are.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Now, I haven't
3 really analyzed this until we're just talking right
4 now.
5 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: I put the blame on me a
7 hundred percent.
8 MR. CHANDLER: You put the blame on
9 you --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely a hundred
11 percent.
12 MR. CHANDLER: I'm sorry. I --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Completely.
14 MR. CHANDLER: Let me put it to you
15 this way, okay? You put all of -- you put the
16 three of them on the stand (simultaneous,
17 inaudible) --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: -- any questions, and
20 they will all be asked questions, and they will all
21 have psychological examinations --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
24 inaudible) given lie detector tests.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
153
1 MR. CHANDLER: I'm going to tell you
2 what. There is no excuse in law for June having
3 done what she does. Despite the fact that you
4 might say it's your fault --
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: -- whatever you say is
7 going to [tape irregularity] capable of making her
8 own decisions --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- and she made those
11 decisions to the harm of her son, despite the fact
12 that, yeah, maybe she's insecure, maybe she's macho
13 on the surface, and maybe you fucked her over.
14 Maybe you did. Maybe you didn't.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: Nobody's gonna give a
17 shit about that. I know what you're saying.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
19 MR. CHANDLER: And I agree with you,
20 and I think that had you two had a really good
21 [tape irregularity], maybe she wouldn't have had to
22 do what she did.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
24 MR. CHANDLER: And I know what you're
25 saying, and it breaks my heart, but I truly believe
154
1 my son is being harmed greatly and that his
2 life -- he could be fucked up for the rest of his
3 life [tape irregularity].
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: You gotta tell me why
5 you think he's being screwed up.
6 MR. CHANDLER: I have the evidence.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know, but what -- I
8 don't know what evidence. I don't know what you're
9 talking about.
10 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you'll see.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why can't you tell
12 me? I swear --
13 MR. CHANDLER: You show up in court and
14 you'll see it on the big fucking screen --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: But what --
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- and then you'll know
17 what I'm talking about.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: And you'll hear in on
20 tape recordings.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: You'll hear it all.
23 You'll see it all, just like I have.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: It cost me thousands,
155
1 tens of thousands of dollars --
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: -- to get the
4 information I got, and I -- you know I don't have
5 that kind of money --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: -- and I spent it, and
8 I'm willing to spend more, and I'm willing --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- to go down
11 financially to --
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that's
13 going to help Jordy?
14 MR. CHANDLER: Dave, Jordy's -- I
15 believe that Jordy's already irreparably harmed.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: That's my true belief.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think
19 that he's fucking him?
20 MR. CHANDLER: I don't know. I have no
21 idea.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: But harmed in -- in just
23 been spoiled?
24 MR. CHANDLER: No.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Just tell me --
156
1 MR. CHANDLER: You know, you gotta
2 forgive me for one thing, but I have been told by
3 my lawyer that if I say one thing to anybody --
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Okay.
5 MR. CHANDLER: -- don't bother calling
6 him again. He said this case is so open [tape
7 irregularity] "You open your mouth and you blow
8 it," he said, "just don't come back to me."
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. I respect that.
10 Okay.
11 MR. CHANDLER: Not that I don't trust
12 you or anything --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know. I respect it.
14 MR. CHANDLER: You have a vested
15 interest in it --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
17 MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you
18 this, by the way: What harm would it be to you,
19 what harm would it be to your relationship to June,
20 if Michael wasn't around anymore?
21 You say that you [tape irregularity]
22 your fault. You say that you made her insecure.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait.
24 MR. CHANDLER: So if he wasn't around
25 anymore --
157
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?
2 MR. CHANDLER: -- what do you think
3 she's going to do? She's going to come back to
4 you.
5 She doesn't need you anymore. She
6 doesn't even want you around anymore. She's told
7 me and she's told you -- I'm sure she's told you
8 that if [tape irregularity] Michael she'll get rid
9 of you. She's told me that. She means it.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
11 MR. CHANDLER: She means --
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: The only thing I told
13 you before is I told her I didn't want him buying
14 her things in Europe. I gave her some money. And
15 then when he did buy her things and she told me, I
16 got pissed off at her. And that's it, and that's
17 really the whole thing. That's all we ever talked
18 about.
19 MR. CHANDLER: How do you feel about
20 her going off on tour with him? You told me when
21 you were there the other day that everybody's been
22 calling you saying "Your wife's been [tape
23 irregularity]" --
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: It does [tape
25 irregularity] --
158
1 MR. CHANDLER: And let me tell you
2 something, by the way. That's the best thing that
3 could happen to him, is that people think he's
4 interested in June.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: The fact is, he has no
7 interest in her whatsoever. The fact is he doesn't
8 even care about her. He doesn't even like her.
9 He's [tape irregularity] --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don't think he likes
11 her?
12 MR. CHANDLER: I know he doesn't. He
13 told me he doesn't. He can't stand her. He told
14 me that when --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Huh! He can't stand
16 her?
17 MR. CHANDLER: No. He told me that
18 when he was in my house.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. At that point he
21 liked us better than -- Jordy too. Jordy's the
22 same as Michael. It was a simple divide and
23 conquer. They felt us both out.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: They saw who was going
159
1 to let them do what they wanted to do, and then
2 they made their choice.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: And until I had a talk
5 with Jordy one day at [tape irregularity] --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: -- they were gonna come
8 live with me. They were gonna pack up, leave
9 June's house, and come here.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: That's what they were
12 going to do, because they were getting more
13 resistance from her than they were getting from me.
14 You cannot tell this stuff -- you cannot -- I'm
15 confiding in you, okay, Dave?
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
17 MR. CHANDLER: Right? That's --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Absolutely.
19 MR. CHANDLER: Nobody's to know this
20 conversation --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
23 inaudible) except you and me; is that right?
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
25 MR. CHANDLER: You promise me?
160
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I promise you.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What I'm telling
3 you is that Jordy and Michael are users.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: They had -- they were
6 gonna -- they had their own relationship.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: They want to carry it
9 out the way they want to carry it out. They don't
10 want anybody getting in the way [tape
11 irregularity] -- least resistance, and that's the
12 way they're going. They simply divided and
13 conquered, and June went along with it. And she
14 was wrong because she did it to the detriment of
15 Jordy.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: Jordy is not old enough
18 to make these kind of [tape irregularity] that he's
19 making.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: But is that a huge life
21 decision?
22 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, you bet it is.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you -- were
24 you -- let me ask you this: Did you ever pull away
25 from your parents when you were a teenager?
161
1 MR. CHANDLER: I hated my parents.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think Jordy hates
3 you?
4 MR. CHANDLER: If he doesn't, he's
5 gonna hate me tomorrow.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why do you --
7 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
8 inaudible) to --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you want that?
10 MR. CHANDLER: It doesn't matter what I
11 want.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why would you want
13 him to hate you, and why would you want to put him
14 through that --
15 MR. CHANDLER: Because all I care about
16 is what happens to him in the long run.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, the long run, is
18 that going to be healthy in the long run?
19 MR. CHANDLER: According to the
20 experts?
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: Absolutely.
23 According to the experts, if it goes on
24 the way it is, he's doomed. He has no chance of
25 ever being a happy, healthy, normal human being, no
162
1 [tape irregularity].
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: So what happens if you
3 force him not to see him?
4 MR. CHANDLER: Not to see Michael?
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Nobody's saying for sure
7 what will happen. Most people's feeling is that
8 he's gonna go on and hate me for a long time and
9 then some day when he gets older he'll thank me.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And why do you
11 think he hates you now?
12 MR. CHANDLER: I said I think
13 he'll -- I said he may or may not hate me now --
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: -- but he'll definitely
16 hate me tomorrow.
17 He'll hate me, why? Because I'm taking
18 Michael away from him. That's why.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: And that's a --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: So you really think
22 Michael's bad for him?
23 MR. CHANDLER: I know Michael's bad for
24 him.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
163
1 MR. CHANDLER: You know how I know
2 that?
3 Why would somebody, Dave -- if you tell
4 me this, think of this logically. What reason
5 would he want us split up -- [tape irregularity]
6 would he want me out of the way? What would be the
7 reason, unless he has something to hide?
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: But --
9 MR. CHANDLER: I know what he has to
10 hide. I happen to know what it is.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: But I can't tell you.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
14 MR. CHANDLER: I'm just asking you in
15 terms of logic. You know me. I'm not -- I'm a
16 pretty liberal guy.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: I don't get in anybody's
19 way, okay? So, I mean, what reason would he want
20 me out of the way to such an extent that neither
21 one of them will take my phone calls, neither one
22 of them will talk to me?
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: I think Jordy's taken my
24 route of just withdrawing.
25 MR. CHANDLER: Well, one of the lessons
164
1 he's gonna learn is that that route doesn't work.
2 See, you just learned that lesson yourself. By you
3 withdrawing, as you said in your own words, you're
4 the cause of this whole problem.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, I think I am.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. So that's what
7 withdrawal does for you.
8 My approach to the whole thing is that
9 the one person -- the person who doesn't talk is
10 the one who's wrong, period --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- no matter what the
13 action was, I believe everything is preventable,
14 every bad action that anybody takes is -- unless
15 you're truly pathologic --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: -- is probably
18 preventable if you just found somebody who would
19 sit [tape irregularity] you know what? They don't
20 even have to talk back and give you [tape
21 irregularity] if you get it out, everything will be
22 okay, you know, but that's my approach. My
23 approach is that the people who don't talk are the
24 ones who are wrong.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: And I agree with that,
165
1 totally.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then you're wrong.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. I --
4 MR. CHANDLER: You (inaudible) --
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: I just said I am wrong,
6 but here is the other -- I mean, the thing is
7 Jordy's 13 years old. I'm talking about adults. I
8 mean, I don't know if he -- I mean, you're his dad.
9 You're his role model.
10 MR. CHANDLER: No, I'm not his role
11 model.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes, you are,
13 definitely --
14 MR. CHANDLER: Not anymore.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: You are, positively, in
16 the long run, you're his role model.
17 MR. CHANDLER: There is no -- there
18 isn't gonna be a long run if things went on like
19 this.
20 Don't you see? As long as I go along
21 with whatever they want to do --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- everything's okay.
24 As soon as I say you can't [tape irregularity]
25 anybody --
166
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Did you go through that?
2 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, I went through
3 that.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: And how old were you?
5 MR. CHANDLER: Why do you -- oh, with
6 my parents?
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: No, I didn't go through
9 that with my parents. I never had any outside
10 influence on me --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- was more powerful
13 than my parents were.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, Michael is
15 very seductive, without even trying.
16 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, he's trying, believe
17 me. He just looks like he's not trying because
18 he's so damn good at it.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I mean, it's --
20 MR. CHANDLER: Dave, he fooled me --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- I'll tell you that.
23 He fooled me, for a while.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think
25 this is --
167
1 MR. CHANDLER: There's no reason why
2 they would have to cut me out unless they -- unless
3 they need me to be away so they can do certain
4 things which I don't think are good to be doing.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: And I -- and not only
7 that, but I don't even have anything to say about
8 it, okay? [tape irregularity] I think what they're
9 doing and it isn't bad, and so maybe I'm wrong --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: -- but I'm not even
12 getting a chance to express that.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: I think that's all -- I
14 think it's all fair because --
15 MR. CHANDLER: I had a good
16 communication with Michael.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: We were friends, you
19 know. I liked him.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: I respected him and
22 everything else for what he is, you know. There
23 was no reason why he had to stop calling me. He
24 could have called me.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
168
1 MR. CHANDLER: In fact, Dave, I -- you
2 ask Jordy. I sat in the room one day, and I talked
3 to Michael and told him exactly what I want out of
4 this whole relationship, what I want [tape
5 irregularity], okay, so he wouldn't have to figure
6 me out.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: And one of things I said
9 is we always have to be able to talk to each other.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: That's the rule, okay,
12 because I know that as soon as you stop talking
13 weird things start going on and people [tape
14 irregularity] --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Imaginations take over.
16 MR. CHANDLER: Imagination will just
17 kill you.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
19 MR. CHANDLER: It causes all kinds of
20 problems, and so, I mean --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, can you do
22 this --
23 MR. CHANDLER: Do you think
24 you -- look. Do you know what it's like? You go
25 out with -- listen. I -- just that old expression,
169
1 you know. It came from some movie. How does it
2 go? "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean
3 somebody isn't [tape irregularity]."
4 You know that expression?
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. What it really
7 means is that you may think I'm crazy --
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
9 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
10 inaudible) I'm thinking is actually right, but what
11 I'm saying to you is that I've had every single
12 girl -- and I am not kidding you -- every [tape
13 irregularity] ever gone out with, from the very
14 first girl to the very last, has cheated on me, and
15 I have never cheated on anybody.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: I would never.
18 Now, if I wanted to, based on that
19 history, I could be so fucking paranoid about
20 girls, I would never --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- be able to [tape
23 irregularity] relationship. I wouldn't be able to
24 [tape irregularity] was like, I couldn't have a
25 family. I'd be a fucking raving lunatic. Okay?
170
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: But what's my point? My
3 point is that the only thing that keeps me from
4 getting that way is that I can talk about it and be
5 reassured [tape irregularity] on it in my
6 imagination -- I mean, my wife's not home tonight.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: She's gonna be at a
9 meeting until 2:00 o'clock in the morning.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
11 MR. CHANDLER: Right? This has
12 happened many times.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: She's going to go away
15 to Cannes Film Festival next year --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: -- right? Do you know
18 what that's like?
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: That Film Festival's a
21 fucking sex party.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: Next year, without me,
24 okay? Now, if I didn't have a chance to talk to
25 her about my fears, my [tape irregularity],
171
1 probably shoot her, or I'd divorce her.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: And I'm not saying her
4 as an individual. Wouldn't matter who -- I could
5 be married to Mother Teresa and I'd have the same
6 feeling. It's just because of what [tape
7 irregularity] that I've been -- my finger's been
8 stuck in the electric socket so much that I don't
9 want to get stuck in there again, so I keep -- and
10 girls do that to me, you know? They keep fucking
11 me up, so --
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: So what was --
13 MR. CHANDLER: -- bothers me. I might
14 be totally irrational --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- but you want to know
17 why I'm not crazy about it at all and I have a
18 great relationship and I trust her and everything
19 is fine?
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: Because she'll sit down
22 and she'll talk to me about it.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: And she's wildly in love
24 with you.
25 MR. CHANDLER: She tells me she is.
172
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: She is.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, it's very
4 obvious.
5 MR. CHANDLER: And you want to know
6 what I told her? I told her this. I said
7 June -- "Monique," I said, "if you ever want to sleep
8 with somebody else or if you don't love me anymore,
9 if you come to me and you tell me that [tape
10 irregularity] out of the house and fuck his brains
11 out, I'll love you forever, I'll support you and
12 wish you well. But if it's the other way around,
13 you fuck him first and then you [tape
14 irregularity], I'll kill you, period." I said,
15 "Those are the rules. If you want to stay with me,
16 you gotta understand that's the only way I can
17 survive. That's how I live.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: It's all comes -- that's
20 what really relationships --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, trust is real
22 important.
23 MR. CHANDLER: When you get down to
24 relationships like we -- like really intimate ones,
25 okay?
173
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Like you and I. I trust
3 you with my life.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
5 MR. CHANDLER: And I know you trust me
6 too.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
8 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? And with Moniquw, I
9 said, "That's all I'm after."
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: What does she say?
11 MR. CHANDLER: She said, "I understand.
12 That's fine." She said, "It'll never happen. I
13 don't know why you're bringing it up, but if you're
14 bringing it up, I won't do it. Trust me. It won't
15 happen."
16 I said, "Okay. I'm just -- I'm telling
17 you now ahead of time" --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: That's good
19 communication.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I mean, I'm not
21 being embarrassed by it --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- I'm not keeping it
24 inside. I want to have a good marriage and a good
25 relationship
174
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: -- and I know this is
3 one issue that bothers me, no matter who that girl
4 would be.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Okay? I'm not --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: In any --
8 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
9 inaudible) personal against her.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
11 MR. CHANDLER: It's just with me. It's
12 my problem, and so I'm letting her know that I have
13 a problem. I'm not hiding anything. I'd not
14 trying to be macho cool dude about it.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
16 MR. CHANDLER: And so if I wasn't able
17 to talk to her, this marriage would have been over
18 a long time ago.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Because [tape
21 irregularity] --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Don't we learn like
23 that?
24 MR. CHANDLER: Because of my
25 imagination, Dave.
175
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but don't we learn
2 through experiences --
3 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
4 inaudible) want to know what I really think? I
5 really think most people don't learn. I think at
6 some point in our lives we develop behavior
7 patterns, and even if we know that they're wrong we
8 just can't break them.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: You know --
10 MR. CHANDLER: Most people can't change
11 their behaviors.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
13 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
14 inaudible) they are at a certain --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yes and no, but I think
16 you get --
17 MR. CHANDLER: Look at you. Are you
18 going to change now because of what happened here?
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, interesting --
20 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
21 inaudible) be different? Is your marriage going to
22 be better? Are you going to -- you know, you guys
23 have no right to be married. I told June that
24 myself many times. She would call me all the time
25 and say, "Did Dave call Kelly? Did Dave call
176
1 Jordy?"
2 No.
3 What kind of fucking marriage do you
4 guys have? Why don't you guys just split up so he
5 could see his kids, at least --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: You know, if he doesn't
8 want to come over to the house because of you, then
9 get divorced so he could see his kids. There's
10 nothing wrong with that. You know, you might be
11 better friends. She and I were better friends when
12 we [tape irregularity], and what I'm saying to her
13 is that if there's no -- if there's no
14 communication, there's no sense in being together
15 with anybody, whether it's a marriage or a
16 friendship or a business relationship. If you
17 cannot sit down and talk [tape irregularity]
18 ultimately gonna destruct, and that's what happened
19 here. They shut me out from the most important
20 thing in my life. In fact, I don't have a life. I
21 don't want to have a life [tape irregularity].
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: I understand it, too,
23 but I gotta tell you, in just talking to you this
24 time, see, Jordy's copying me.
25 MR. CHANDLER: Well --
177
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, he's positively
2 copying me. I mean, he's been with both of us
3 since -- I mean, I've had him since he's -- almost
4 as long as you have.
5 MR. CHANDLER: That's right.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: And he's --
7 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
8 inaudible) had him as long as he's been cognizant
9 of the fact of who's around him --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, so --
11 MR. CHANDLER: -- learned a lot from
12 you.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and one of the
14 things he learned, probably, was just to withdraw,
15 because I do it, but, you know, I'm not chastising
16 myself for it. I'm just looking at it objectively.
17 I mean, realistically. I mean, I would say --
18 MR. CHANDLER: You haven't (inaudible)
19 and in some way it's resonated throughout the
20 family --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- and partly been the
23 cause of all this happening.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right, but I mean he's,
25 you know, he's learned a lot of good things from
178
1 me.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, I'm sure he --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: But, you know, I mean,
4 everyone's not perfect.
5 MR. CHANDLER: No. Everyone's not.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I think --
7 MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible) expect
8 everyone to be, but you gotta expect people that
9 claim to love you to communicate with you because
10 if there's communication there's nothing.
11 What's the sense of having your
12 relationship? People don't even care enough about
13 you to -- you tell them -- I actually told June how
14 much I was hurting. I said --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- "I'm hurting, June.
17 I'm crying every day. I'm dying."
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but they're going
19 through every --
20 MR. CHANDLER: Do you know what she
21 said to me?
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: What?
23 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that's just too
24 bad.
25 Fuck that.
179
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but you can't -- I
2 mean, you know June.
3 MR. CHANDLER: I can't make excuses for
4 June.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: There's no way to
6 make -- there's nothing to make an excuse. I mean,
7 we all have our good points and our bad points, and
8 we all have things that --
9 MR. CHANDLER: I think, you know, her
10 bad points [tape irregularity] gone too far. I
11 really do.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: I think you gotta look
13 at the overall picture. I mean, now we're
14 talking --
15 MR. CHANDLER: I am looking at -- I'm
16 looking at Jordy's picture. That's the only
17 picture I'm looking at. I -- June's not part of
18 it.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: But do you think that --
20 MR. CHANDLER: I know that after
21 tomorrow -- in fact, not even after tomorrow. It's
22 already happened. I don't ever want anything to do
23 with June anymore because June is not part of my
24 family. In my mind, she's died. I don't ever want
25 to talk to her again. [tape irregularity] sitting
180
1 on the stand being totally humiliated or at the end
2 of a shotgun. That's the only way I want to see
3 June now. She's gotta [tape irregularity] do this
4 to kid. Again, it's not right. Can do it to me.
5 Can't do it to my kid. It's not right.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think
7 that whatever's happening, if you think it's bad
8 for him, she's done, you know, out of malice?
9 MR. CHANDLER: You want to know
10 something? You don't even have to ask me. You
11 could -- as you said before, you want to sit down
12 and talk to the people I spoke to --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: -- you're going to have
15 a chance to do that if you want to. You go and ask
16 the experts --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- and you won't have to
19 ask. They will be there anyway.
20 There's not one person in this world
21 [tape irregularity] can't find a person --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- disagree with me.
24 I'm the one that disagreed with -- I
25 didn't even want to know about it.
181
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: I kept saying, "No, this
3 is okay. There's nothing wrong. This is great."
4 It took experts to convince me [tape
5 irregularity] that by not taking action --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: -- my son was going to
8 be irreparably damaged for the rest of his life
9 [tape irregularity]. That was what I heard.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because his friend is
11 older, or because of all the seduction?
12 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know, age in
13 and of itself is not a harmful thing.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: But it could have been
16 used to advantage, and in some ways Michael is
17 using his age and experience and his money and his
18 power to great advantage to Jordy. The problem is
19 he's also harming him, greatly harming him, for his
20 own selfish reasons. He's not the altruistic, kind
21 human being that he appears to be.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think --
23 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
24 inaudible) selfish motives here.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean, harming Jordy
182
1 because it's taken him out of reality?
2 MR. CHANDLER: It's not so much really
3 what he's taken him out of. It's what he's brought
4 him into.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I don't mean to
7 be devious. I just can't be --
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: You can't tell me.
9 MR. CHANDLER: -- specific about it,
10 but I tell you that, again, it all comes down to
11 one thing. They don't want to talk to me.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
13 MR. CHANDLER: Jordy -- yeah, he's 13
14 years old. He's only [tape irregularity], hoping
15 that the problem will go away by itself, but June's
16 old enough to know better.
17 June's the one that's frustrated me.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know, this is
19 the deal: I talked to Jordy about it today, about,
20 you know, his not contacting you and not calling
21 you on Father's Day and not sending you anything.
22 He's confused June -- and this is the truth and
23 from him. June did everything to get him to send
24 you a card, to call and everything. He's just
25 frustrated, you know, and I don't know about what
183
1 or -- you know, it's just like he's scared or
2 doesn't know what to do or --
3 MR. CHANDLER: (Inaudible).
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?
5 MR. CHANDLER: June didn't do a thing
6 to have him call me or send me a card by her own
7 admission to me last time. She didn't give a shit,
8 is what she told me.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but I don't
10 believe that because, I mean --
11 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
12 inaudible) told me.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because, I mean --
14 MR. CHANDLER: I --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: With June and -- I
16 talked to them today.
17 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, she's lying
18 to you, Dave.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, but would Jordy
20 lie?
21 MR. CHANDLER: Now they're scared shit.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. Would Jordy -- no,
23 because they don't know anything about it. I
24 didn't even tell them that I had talked to you this
25 morning, okay?
184
1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
2 inaudible) them know you heard the message.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: And what are you going
5 there all of a sudden? You haven't been there --
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Last night's the first
7 night I've been there.
8 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. By accident?
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, it's Kelly's
10 birthday. I mean, you know, I got -- it's tough
11 for me too. It's not easy. I mean, you don't
12 really know what's going on with me, but, I mean,
13 it's very, very, very difficult times for me.
14 MR. CHANDLER: So what?
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Very.
16 MR. CHANDLER: So what you're saying is
17 that because of your problem you sacrifice the
18 kids.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I did it --
20 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
21 inaudible) money all during --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. I just -- I
23 fucked up, but --
24 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, you fucked up.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but --
185
1 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
2 inaudible) I'm not fucking up --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: -- when you're trying to
4 survive --
5 MR. CHANDLER: Hey, Dave, it doesn't
6 matter. You want to know something? When my
7 father was dying of cancer --
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
9 MR. CHANDLER: -- and he had -- and he
10 got in a car crash that crushed his leg and his
11 spinal cord --
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
13 MR. CHANDLER: -- at the same time and
14 he was in incredible pain --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- I used to talk to him
17 about it --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: -- and he would say,
20 "You know what?"
21 I'd say, "Why don't you -- you never
22 talk -- you never talk about it, you never complain
23 to anybody."
24 He said, "You know what? Because
25 everybody's got their own problems, and nobody's
186
1 gonna think that my problem's any worse than their
2 problem."
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: And so as bad as your
5 problem is [tape irregularity] it may not be on the
6 same scale, but emotionally, financially,
7 psychologically, it's devastating me as much as
8 [tape irregularity].
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: And I accept that.
10 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I -- let me --
12 MR. CHANDLER: I'm telling you this:
13 That as bad as my life is, I'm willing to let it
14 get a lot worse --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- and sacrifice
17 whatever it is -- and I don't even consider it a
18 sacrifice -- give up whatever it is so that my son
19 won't be damaged.
20 You're not willing to do that. You
21 fall apart just to save one of your kids [tape
22 irregularity] away from my practice, from my
23 family, from my wife, from Cody, from everybody
24 else, do whatever I have to do --
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think that'll
187
1 save Jordy? I mean, don't you think there's a
2 happy medium?
3 MR. CHANDLER: No. We're not gonna
4 save him. June's not gonna save him. Who's gonna
5 save him? Gotta be me.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you really
7 think he has --
8 MR. CHANDLER: -- one.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: You don't think it's
10 just gonna run its course?
11 MR. CHANDLER: Dave . . .
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, you know more
13 than I know, so I'm at a disadvantage.
14 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then, I will tell
15 you without question. It's gone way too far.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: Jordy is never going to
18 be the same person he was.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: It's never -- by the
21 time it runs its course --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- if it does, he will
24 be so damaged he'll never recover --
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
188
1 MR. CHANDLER: -- and that's not my
2 opinion. I mean, I happen to be believe it now
3 because my eyes have been opened --
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: -- but I'm not the one
6 that first [tape irregularity], so what I'm saying
7 to you is that I'm acting because [tape
8 irregularity] I'm going to cause him great harm,
9 and you tell me if maybe it's gonna cause him harm
10 right now. I think he'll be harmed much greater if
11 I do nothing, and besides now I'm convinced that if
12 I do nothing I'm going to be, from doing nothing,
13 causing him harm, and I couldn't --
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Did you discuss that
15 with Monique?
16 MR. CHANDLER: Not really.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I don't want her
19 involved. I mean, she would just like the whole
20 thing to go away.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: But we've had a nice
23 little relationship and a great new marriage and a
24 nice little family --
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
189
1 MR. CHANDLER: -- and everything's
2 terrific over here.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: And, you know, I've
5 tried to explain to Cody why his brother doesn't
6 call him and he doesn't come over here. You know
7 [tape irregularity] whole world, and I'm not
8 exaggerating.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: (Inaudible) Jordy.
10 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. You ask Monique
11 when you speak to her if he doesn't bring it up
12 every conversation --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: -- (simultaneous,
15 inaudible) out during the day.
16 Cody spent about two weeks crying his
17 eyes out. He'd have nightmares about Jordy. He'd
18 get up in the middle of the night and come crying
19 into our bed.
20 I'd listen to him talk, and I would
21 break down --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- and I couldn't
24 even -- I mean, I couldn't even -- I couldn't -- I
25 didn't know what to say to him, you know? What can
190
1 you say?
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: It was the saddest thing
4 I [tape irregularity]. I mean, how do you do that?
5 13 years old. There's no -- you know, and a [tape
6 irregularity] just come into it?
7 I ask you this: If Michael Jackson
8 were just some 34-year-old person, would this be
9 happening? No. He's got power, he's got money,
10 he's got seduction. [tape irregularity] happening
11 [tape irregularity] they've been seduced away from
12 the family by power and by money.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: And by this guy's image.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: He could be the same
17 person without the power and the money, and they
18 wouldn't even be talking to him. You know it and I
19 know it. So for power and money and his image,
20 June and Jordy have broken up the family, and even
21 though [tape irregularity] a lot better, because
22 I've sat down and talked to him, and I've told him
23 long before it came down to going this far --
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: -- that Cody was really
191
1 hysterical about him.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: And what does he say?
3 MR. CHANDLER: He said that he would,
4 you know, he would call him and he'd talk to him
5 and stuff, and he tried, you know.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: As time went on, the
8 times between when he did call or see Cody got
9 longer and longer and longer and longer until [tape
10 irregularity] anymore.
11 And you know what? He would do the
12 same thing to Kelly. Kelly just happens to have to
13 come along because June has to happen to come
14 along --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- but if [tape
17 irregularity] now, June wouldn't be in the picture
18 and neither would Kelly, any more than I am.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: They would have dumped
21 her a long time ago. They even told me [tape
22 irregularity]. They can't stand her.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. Jordy can't stand
24 June?
25 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. Neither one of
192
1 them like her. They don't like anybody but each
2 other.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: They don't like you, and
5 they don't like me and they don't like her. They
6 don't want anybody coming between them. [tape
7 irregularity] got to be eliminated.
8 You go ahead and you see -- you tell
9 June. You tell June to start saying "No" to
10 everything they want --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- and see what happens.
13 The only reason she's there is because
14 she says "Yes" [tape irregularity] favorite as long
15 as I was saying "Yes."
16 Trust me. I don't know what's happened
17 to Jordy except he doesn't care, literally does not
18 care, if he would ever see him again. He hopes I
19 would go away and not bother him. That's [tape
20 irregularity].
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I know that's not
22 true.
23 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
24 inaudible) Michael.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: I know that's not true.
193
1 MR. CHANDLER: I'm telling you. But
2 that doesn't matter, you know. I'm not taking it
3 personally. I'm just trying to do what I have been
4 led to believe is the right action to take so that
5 he's not harmed.
6 I mean, Unfortunately, June and [tape
7 irregularity] because in order to protect Jordy
8 certain things are gonna have to come out, and
9 those two are not going to have any defense against
10 it whatsoever. They're just going to be [tape
11 irregularity] violently destroyed.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that it
13 helps Jordy?
14 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah, it'll help Jordy
15 because he won't -- he'll never see Michael again.
16 That's --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, do you think
18 that --
19 MR. CHANDLER: And he's probably never
20 gonna see June again if I have to go through with
21 this.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think --
23 MR. CHANDLER: Unless I'd let him.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Do you think that would
25 affect him?
194
1 MR. CHANDLER: What?
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: That he was -- that this
3 was done by force?
4 MR. CHANDLER: You mean that Michael
5 did this to him?
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: No, that you, like, are
7 forcing him not to see someone or take him away
8 from his mom?
9 MR. CHANDLER: Well, I am gonna force
10 him not to see --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but do you think
12 that's the right way to do it?
13 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. I've been led to
14 believe that it's the right thing to do.
15 In fact, it's the right thing to do
16 because how do you know? You don't know what --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't have a clue.
18 MR. CHANDLER: Suppose you were to find
19 out what they're doing and you were to agree with
20 me that these things that they're doing are harmful
21 to Jordy or --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'd like to know.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- be harmful.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, in my wildest
25 imagination I can't figure out what it is.
195
1 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. But suppose --
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Unless it's sex, and I
3 don't know, you know.
4 MR. CHANDLER: Suppose that you were to
5 find out that there were things going on that you
6 believed were harmful to him? Would you say to me,
7 "Hey, look. You know, I got things to do here
8 [tape irregularity], but, you know, time will go by
9 and everything will be okay"? I mean, that's --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: No. What I would
11 do -- I'm not disagreeing with you.
12 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, they won't
13 talk to me about those things. They won't talk to
14 me about anything.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Even about what you
16 think they're doing or about what you know they're
17 doing?
18 MR. CHANDLER: What I know they're
19 doing.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I've tried to
22 talk to Jordy. Jordy -- Jordy does not talk to me.
23 This stopped long before I told him he couldn't
24 [tape irregularity]. He just does not talk to me
25 anymore. In fact, when he talks to Michael on the
196
1 telephone, he goes in another room because I'm not
2 allowed to hear what they're talking about except I
3 taped [tape irregularity] they're talking about.
4 Ha ha ha.
5 Anyway, all I'm saying is that [tape
6 irregularity] that I would be negligent to continue
7 to do nothing [tape irregularity] gonna be because
8 nobody really knows how Jordy will be affected one
9 way or the other.
10 I know for a fact that he's going to be
11 affected adversely if I do nothing.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
13 MR. CHANDLER: So I have nothing to
14 lose.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Would you do me a big
16 favor?
17 MR. CHANDLER: What?
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Could you and I go to
19 one of these shrinks and talk it over?
20 MR. CHANDLER: No.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why not?
22 MR. CHANDLER: Because it's too late,
23 after 8:30 tomorrow.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: But why not? Why
25 couldn't we go talk it over --
197
1 MR. CHANDLER: Because the thing's
2 already -- the thing has already been set in
3 motion.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: It's happening at 8:30.
6 8:36 tomorrow --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: -- it's out of my hands.
9 I do nothing else again --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: -- after 8:36 tomorrow.
12 It's all been automatically set in
13 motion.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: I'm not even in contact
16 anymore --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: -- with this person.
19 This thing is --
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Let me ask you this,
21 then.
22 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
23 inaudible) 8:36, unless I call in --
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: -- and tell him not to
198
1 do it.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: So why don't you call
3 and say not to do it?
4 MR. CHANDLER: Because I'm not going
5 to.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why? Why wouldn't you
7 go with me? I mean, we trust each other. We
8 respect each other. Why couldn't you go with me
9 and we'd decide together?
10 MR. CHANDLER: Because I don't want to
11 talk to you about it.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?
13 MR. CHANDLER: I want to talk to June
14 and Jordy and Michael --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but why can't you
16 talk to me? I mean, I'm -- I could be very --
17 MR. CHANDLER: -- be there tomorrow
18 and --
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Pardon me?
20 MR. CHANDLER: You can be there at the
21 meeting tomorrow, and you can get a chance to talk
22 to him --
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
24 MR. CHANDLER: -- if you want to, but
25 if they don't say, "Well, there's not going to be a
199
1 meeting" --
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay.
3 MR. CHANDLER: -- I want to talk to
4 them. I don't want to talk to you.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Because you have had
7 your head buried in Rent A Wreck, and you have no
8 idea what's going on --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- and just because you
11 all of a sudden decide to have some interest in
12 [tape irregularity] I don't [tape irregularity]
13 going on. It will take you weeks to catch up --
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: -- you'll never know
16 what's going on by explanation.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
18 MR. CHANDLER: You'd have to have lived
19 it. You'd have to have witnessed it. Myself would
20 never have believed it --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- if I didn't live
23 through it, see it and hear it.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: I would not have
200
1 believed it. And that's all. I cannot take this
2 [tape irregularity] over to you because that's the
3 only way you're gonna know it.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: The evidence is already
6 locked up in a safe place --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: -- and it's gonna come
9 out only [tape irregularity] let it come out, and
10 that's it. If they don't talk to me tomorrow, out
11 it comes.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Okay. Well, but let me
13 ask you this- -
14 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
15 inaudible) Michael Jackson -- Michael Jackson's
16 career, Dave. This man is gonna be humiliated
17 beyond belief. You'll not believe it. He will not
18 believe what's going to happen to him.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Beyond his worst
21 nightmares. [tape irregularity] not sell one more
22 record.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
24 MR. CHANDLER: That's for sure. And I
25 mean I'm [tape irregularity] it just has to happen
201
1 in order to get -- to keep [tape irregularity] and
2 it doesn't have to happen if they show up tomorrow.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
4 MR. CHANDLER: But if they don't show
5 up -- and I've made it very clear -- I've tried to
6 make it really clear on that answering machine,
7 "This is the last chance to talk. If you talk, we
8 have a chance. If we don't talk, it's all over."
9 It's out of my hands. I mean, what
10 else can I do?
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: I don't -- you know, I
12 don't --
13 MR. CHANDLER: What's the disadvantage
14 to you if Michael Jackson's destroyed and out of
15 the family? What good is he doing you?
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: What harms it -- well,
17 it has nothing to -- I'm only thinking of Jordy.
18 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
19 inaudible) come over to talk to you, you seemed
20 pretty damned upset that everybody was telling you
21 that Michael Jackson has taken your family away
22 from you. You even went so far as to tell me you
23 couldn't get bank loans because of that [tape
24 irregularity] turn around completely 180 degrees.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: It's not turning around
202
1 180.
2 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
3 inaudible) for Michael Jackson.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'll tell you what I'm
5 concerned about.
6 MR. CHANDLER: What?
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'm concerned about
8 Jordy.
9 MR. CHANDLER: Well, if you were
10 concerned about Jordy, you should have been around
11 a long time ago, because I have been.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
13 MR. CHANDLER: Where have you been?
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I've been there
15 plenty for him. I mean, in the 13 years I've been
16 there a lot.
17 MR. CHANDLER: I agree --
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: I would say --
19 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
20 inaudible) day --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: I would say this: So I
22 made a few mistakes, but --
23 MR. CHANDLER: Why --
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: I can't condemn myself
25 for it.
203
1 MR. CHANDLER: Well, why all of a
2 sudden do you not want to be there?
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Did I not want to be
4 there?
5 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I've been in a
7 survival mode.
8 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, okay.
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: And, you know --
10 MR. CHANDLER: The fact of the matter
11 is --
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: You know, you do what
13 you have to do, and sometimes you make the wrong
14 move, and sometimes your emotions make you do it,
15 and sometimes it's just -- it's the way that you
16 face it. Sometimes you --
17 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
18 inaudible) survival mode, and so you're doing what
19 you're doing, and I'm not in a survival mode. I'm
20 trying for him to survive --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, what I --
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- doing what I think --
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: I'll tell you what. I
24 would die for that kid. I mean, I have -- you
25 don't know what I've done for that kid.
204
1 MR. CHANDLER: Easy to say that, Dave,
2 but when you tell me you're in a survival mode so
3 you can't pay attention to your children, it
4 doesn't jive with "I would die for that kid."
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Wait. I'm ashamed of
6 that. I'm not proud of that, but when you --
7 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, how do you -- I
8 mean, which of those two statements should I choose
9 to believe, because they're both entirely opposite
10 each other?
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well --
12 MR. CHANDLER: "I would die for that
13 kid" or "I'm" --
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: If I had --
15 MR. CHANDLER: -- "in a survival mode
16 and I" --
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: I would do anything for
18 Jordy. I would lose everything. I would die for
19 Jordy. That's the bottom line.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Then why don't you just
21 back me up right now and let's get rid of Michael
22 Jackson.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Because I don't know the
24 facts.
25 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. Well, when you
205
1 know --
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, I don't --
3 MR. CHANDLER: Okay. When you know the
4 facts, when you see the facts come out, then you'll
5 make a decision at that point.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right. That's fair.
7 MR. CHANDLER: Okay.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, that's more than
9 fair, but this -- let me --
10 MR. CHANDLER: It's unfortunately gonna
11 be too late, then, and nothing's gonna matter at
12 that point.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?
14 MR. CHANDLER: Because the fact is so
15 fucking overwhelming --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah?
17 MR. CHANDLER: -- that everybody's
18 going to be destroyed in the process.
19 The facts themselves are gonna -- once
20 this thing starts rolling --
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: -- the facts themselves
23 are gonna overwhelm. It's gonna be bigger than all
24 of us put together, and the whole thing's just
25 gonna crash down on everybody and destroy everybody
206
1 in its sight. That's [tape irregularity]
2 humiliating, believe me.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. And is that good?
4 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. It's great.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why?
6 MR. CHANDLER: Great, because --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: I mean, is that how
8 you're --
9 MR. CHANDLER: Because June and Jordy
10 and Michael --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- have forced me to
13 take it to the extreme --
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: -- to get their
16 attention. How pitiful, pitifuckingful they are to
17 have done that. I've tried to get their
18 attention --
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: -- I've cried on the
21 phone, I've talked on the phone --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: -- I have begged on the
24 phone, and all I get back is, "Go fuck yourself" on
25 the phone, and so now I'm still trying to get their
207
1 attention until 8:30 tomorrow for their [tape
2 irregularity], and I will know that even having
3 gone this far they won't talk to me, then I know
4 that I'm absolutely right in doing what I'm doing
5 because they have left me no other [tape
6 irregularity]. I am not allowed to talk to [tape
7 irregularity], and so since they're sending me that
8 message and telling me that --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- they leave me no
11 choice. They will not let me say to them, "This is
12 what's bothering me, and this is what I'd like to
13 do about it. What do you think?"
14 They're saying, "We don't care what you
15 have to think -- say about [tape irregularity]."
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: You mean by no
17 communication?
18 MR. CHANDLER: Am I supposed to just
19 bury my head? No. Not when my kid's involved.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: I can't. So it's their
22 fault. Everything's their fault, one hundred
23 percent, and the reason it's their fault [tape
24 irregularity] try to communicate, and they have
25 time after time frustrated my attempts to talk by
208
1 telling me, "Go fuck yourself."
2 And when you do that to somebody,
3 consistently, you drive them to do something [tape
4 irregularity]. I'm not an evil person. I don't
5 want to do this.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: It's their fault because
8 they won't talk. They have one more chance. I've
9 told them this. That's why I left that message.
10 The message was very harsh [tape irregularity] and
11 it was very true, and it was to let them know that
12 I am not kidding around.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: I'm begging them. That
15 message was begging, one more time --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: -- to sit down and talk
18 and saying basically, "I don't want to hurt you,
19 but you're not leaving me any choice."
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: And, you know, if they
22 choose to ignore it, for whatever their
23 motives -- June doesn't ignore things for the
24 same -- she doesn't bury her head in the sand and
25 make believe it's gonna go away.
209
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: June usually will call
3 you up and say, "Go fuck yourself and drop dead" --
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: -- and she'll get
6 violent and all that, maybe even punch you in the
7 face.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, that's not so bad.
9 MR. CHANDLER: That's right, and yet
10 she's not calling me --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- she's not doing
13 anything. She's not talking either. So Michael's
14 not talking either. The three of them, completely
15 different personalities --
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
17 MR. CHANDLER: -- handle situations in
18 three completely different ways, and yet none of
19 the three of them is calling me.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: You can tell me that
22 Jordy's burying his head in the sand and that's his
23 reaction [tape irregularity]. What's the other two
24 excuses? I don't know. They won't even tell me
25 what their excuse for not talking to me is. I
210
1 don't even -- I can't make an excuse for --
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Michael, I can't tell
3 you. June, she doesn't know what's going on.
4 MR. CHANDLER: Well, of course she
5 doesn't know what's going on. She wouldn't let me
6 tell her.
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: But she doesn't going
8 on -- know what's going on --
9 MR. CHANDLER: I did tell her once.
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: I did tell her once what
12 my thoughts were about it.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
14 MR. CHANDLER: And she said, "Go fuck
15 yourself," basically.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Does this --
17 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
18 inaudible) she said -- I do remember 'cause I wrote
19 it on a piece of paper.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: It shocked me so much
22 coming from her mouth that I actually wrote it
23 down, verbatim, in quotes.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: That this human being
211
1 would say something like that about her own kid,
2 and so now that I know that she feels that way
3 about [tape irregularity] no reason why I should
4 assume that she gives a shit about me, so --
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, you know she cares
6 about you.
7 MR. CHANDLER: Well, you know, that
8 doesn't matter anymore. June is nonexistent.
9 If -- I have no -- I have nothing for her anymore.
10 I will never talk to her again, ever. Never.
11 She's a horrible human being, and it's all gonna
12 come out, and I don't even have to say that [tape
13 irregularity]. I'll let everybody make their own
14 decision.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: June is a horrible,
17 selfish human being. [tape irregularity], and now
18 I find this out about how [tape
19 irregularity] -- it's all over. And if they're
20 stupid enough not to talk to me tomorrow, well,
21 they're going to have --
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, I think they want
23 to talk to you, and I want to talk to you.
24 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then they
25 should --
212
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: But when it comes with a
2 threat, I mean, that's what's upsetting to me.
3 MR. CHANDLER: Well, that's too bad.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Well, why?
5 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
6 inaudible) supposed to do to get someone's
7 attention? I say, "I am begging you to talk to
8 me."
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: That doesn't work. So
11 then you cry hysterically on the phone, "I'm in so
12 much pain because I'm losing" --
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: Who did you say
14 that -- who was that to?
15 MR. CHANDLER: To June.
16 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, and how long ago
17 was that?
18 MR. CHANDLER: Oh, three weeks, maybe.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: And then you call up and
21 you say, "I demand to talk to him."
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: None of that works.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
213
1 inaudible) get the same response. I mean, no
2 emotion from the other side whatsoever.
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: Uh-huh.
4 MR. CHANDLER: Nothing.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: Except the coldest
7 response you can possibly imagine, okay?
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
9 MR. CHANDLER: And maybe it's because
10 she's insecure. I don't care anymore --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: I cared at the time. I
13 mean, I was totally shocked that she would respond
14 that way to me. I couldn't believe it. Okay? So
15 I know that I have tried in every way. I've
16 appealed to her in every way I know how. I've
17 appealed to her intelligence, I've appealed to her
18 emotions, and so I've done every -- I've gotten on
19 the ground and I've groveled in front of her. I've
20 gone so far as to tell her that her son is in
21 danger.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: None of it made a
24 difference, none of it, and so what else am I
25 supposed to do to get their attention?
214
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: I --
2 MR. CHANDLER: If I didn't care, Dave,
3 I wouldn't have left that message.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Right.
5 MR. CHANDLER: I just would have gone
6 and done whatever I wanted to do --
7 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
8 MR. CHANDLER: -- and they'd have
9 gotten the shock of their life --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: -- that all of a sudden
12 would have appeared out of nowhere, and then their
13 whole lives would be forever different and forever
14 bad.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: I have nothing to gain
17 by talking to them tomorrow. All that can happen
18 tomorrow is that I'm gonna look at their faces and
19 I'm gonna feel bad --
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
21 MR. CHANDLER: -- and I'm gonna
22 mitigate my position. I'm gonna give in somewhat
23 [tape irregularity] I just went ahead and did what
24 I was gonna do, I don't ever have to see them
25 again --
215
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: -- they're automatically
3 gonna be destroyed and I'm gonna get what I want.
4 That's a given [tape irregularity], so --
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: But, I mean, is that the
6 way to get Jordy?
7 MR. CHANDLER: -- talk to them -- I'm
8 talking to them for their sake --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- mine. This is my
11 fourth, fifth and last attempt to communicate.
12 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
13 MR. CHANDLER: So when I leave a
14 threatening message, I am threatening them --
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: -- because nothing else
17 works. Crying didn't work. Begging didn't work.
18 Intelligence didn't work.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: Appealing to the
21 motherly [tape irregularity] nothing worked. So
22 what else is left? You threaten. If that doesn't
23 work, you've basically tried everything there is
24 that you could possibly try.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
216
1 MR. CHANDLER: I didn't threaten him
2 physically. I didn't say I was going to kill them.
3 Michael can show up with all his bodyguards with
4 guns and surround me if he wants to.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
6 MR. CHANDLER: I'm not killing anybody
7 tomorrow. It's not the next step. His death is
8 not the next (inaudible), so I mean I will talk to
9 them tomorrow, but that's for their -- they can't
10 possibly feel threatened.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: That's bullshit. I
13 didn't threaten them physically in any way, and
14 certainly Michael's got enough [tape irregularity]
15 lawyers (inaudible). He has Burt Fields, who's a
16 big hotshot, if he wants to, sit right there. I
17 don't give a shit.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
19 MR. CHANDLER: Whatever, you know, is
20 going to make them protected from my great threat.
21 I'm showing up all by my little self, and they can
22 show up with an entire army if they need to protect
23 themselves from me, but there's nothing that they
24 can do to convince me that they're not showing up
25 because they're afraid for their lives.
217
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: They could show up [tape
3 irregularity] surrounded by bodyguards. He could
4 certainly have them come over to June's house, so
5 [tape irregularity] threat was obviously the last
6 (inaudible).
7 I've never punched anybody. I've never
8 shot anybody. I've never done anything violent in
9 my life. There's no reason why they should feel
10 physically threatened. Never ever given them any
11 indication that I [tape irregularity] Jordy, so,
12 you know, they know that that threat's [tape
13 irregularity] to be fearful of that. They know
14 that that [tape irregularity] and they know that I
15 left it because there's no other way to get ahold
16 of them.
17 MR. SCHWARTZ: That's fair.
18 MR. CHANDLER: I mean, I think it's
19 fair.
20 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah. Let me ask you
21 this question. I mean, I definitely want to be
22 there.
23 MR. CHANDLER: That's fine.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Can we do it at night?
25 MR. CHANDLER: No. Has to be --
218
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Why not? Why does it
2 have to be in the morning?
3 MR. CHANDLER: Because it's too late at
4 night.
5 MR. SCHWARTZ: It doesn't have to be
6 late --
7 MR. CHANDLER: I have to have the
8 regular business hours. I need as many business
9 hours --
10 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
11 MR. CHANDLER: -- if it doesn't go my
12 way to get the wheels going.
13 MR. SCHWARTZ: But what time are you
14 ready to -- what time are you through work
15 tomorrow --
16 MR. CHANDLER: The wheels roll at 8:36
17 if they're not there.
18 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but can you do
19 that for me, make it later?
20 MR. CHANDLER: (Simultaneous,
21 inaudible) do it. I can't. You don't have to be
22 there.
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I want to --
24 MR. CHANDLER: -- tape record it. You
25 can hear it all.
219
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: But I want to be there.
2 MR. CHANDLER: Well, then you have to
3 be there at 8:30. It's already set.
4 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
5 MR. CHANDLER: There are other people
6 involved that are waiting for my phone call that
7 are intentionally going to be in certain
8 positions --
9 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
10 MR. CHANDLER: -- [tape irregularity].
11 I paid them to do it. They're doing their job. I
12 gotta just go ahead and follow through on the time
13 zone.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Um-hmm.
15 MR. CHANDLER: I mean the time set out.
16 Everything is going according to a certain plan
17 that isn't just mine. There's other people
18 involved --
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: How about 8:37?
20 MR. CHANDLER: Nope. 8:31 is not even
21 going to work.
22 I mean, they're going to
23 have -- they're going to have to be there or not be
24 there. It's up to them what happens now. I mean,
25 it's not going to be [tape irregularity] whether
220
1 they're there or not.
2 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
3 MR. CHANDLER: But if they are there,
4 it's going to be far better than if they're
5 not -- I mean, they're going to have a chance to
6 make things a lot better if they're there.
7 My instructions were to kill and
8 destroy [tape irregularity], I'm telling you. I
9 mean, and by killing and destroying, I'm going to
10 torture them, Dave.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: Because that's what June
13 has done to me. She has tortured me --
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: -- and she's gonna know
16 that you can't [tape irregularity].
17 I'll tell you one thing that Jordy has
18 no idea about, and that's what love means. He
19 doesn't even have the remotest idea. He can't
20 learn it from June. She doesn't know what it
21 means. She has no conception of what it means.
22 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
23 MR. CHANDLER: So maybe, you know, I
24 can get (inaudible) teach him that. I don't know.
25 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah [tape
221
1 irregularity].
2 MR. CHANDLER: Part of it [tape
3 irregularity] other people and communicating, and
4 those are three things that must be in place in
5 order for a loving relationship to exist, because
6 all of those things show that you care about that
7 other person. Not one thing [tape irregularity].
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah, but it was there.
9 MR. CHANDLER: No, I don't think it
10 ever was, now that I --
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: -- look at her behavior,
13 I'm just saying that June is a brilliant and
14 pathologic personality.
15 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
16 MR. CHANDLER: What you see on the
17 surface ain't even remotely related to what's
18 really going on underneath.
19 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
20 MR. CHANDLER: And I believe that that
21 will come out in lie detector [tape irregularity]
22 psychological evaluations --
23 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
24 MR. CHANDLER: -- which they're all
25 gonna have to do.
222
1 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
2 MR. CHANDLER: So --
3 MR. SCHWARTZ: And you think that's
4 good for Jordy?
5 MR. CHANDLER: I think that in the long
6 run would -- of course it's not the best thing for
7 Jordy.
8 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
9 MR. CHANDLER: The best thing for Jordy
10 would be for everybody to sit there and peaceably
11 resolve amongst themselves [tape irregularity], but
12 because they're not willing to do that, I'm not
13 allowed to have a say in what the best [tape
14 irregularity]. I'm not even allowed to [tape
15 irregularity] Jordy is. I'm not allowed to have a
16 say in anything about Jordy. So when you ask me
17 that question [tape irregularity] I would welcome
18 them to do that, but they don't care. They don't
19 care about what I think, so they don't ask me that
20 question. Do I think -- I mean, just to answer
21 your question, I think that [tape irregularity] for
22 Jordy either way in the short [tape irregularity],
23 in the short term.
24 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
25 MR. CHANDLER: I think in the long term
223
1 he's got a [tape irregularity] a chance of being a
2 happy human being if I do what I have to do than if
3 I let things go the way they are.
4 Could a compromise be worked out?
5 Possibly.
6 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
7 MR. CHANDLER: Yeah. Let them convince
8 me as to why [tape irregularity] tell me I'm wrong.
9 Let them show me how Jordy's benefitting and not
10 being harmed. They got their chance.
11 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
12 MR. CHANDLER: If they don't want it,
13 they haven't wanted to take it before.
14 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
15 MR. CHANDLER: They've had four or five
16 times that I've called them [tape irregularity]
17 haven't wanted to get in a conversation with me
18 about it, and I believe they don't want to get in a
19 conversation with me about it is because they know
20 they can't defend their position.
21 MR. SCHWARTZ: Yeah.
22 MR. CHANDLER: [tape irregularity] to
23 cut -- I mean, I'm young, I'm really liberal. As
24 far as I'm concerned, anybody could do anything
25 they want. That's my philosophy. You guys can do
224
1 whatever you want. Just be happy. Don't get hurt.
2 So . . .
3 (End of Tape 1, Side B.)
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
|
Arkeni
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:30 am: |
|
The Extortion Investigation
Extortion on the part of an attorney warrants disbarment. Barton v State Bar of California (1935) 40 P.2d 502, 2 C.2d 294.
Anthony Pellicano stated repeatedly to the news media that the entire child molestation allegation was an elaborate extortion scheme by Mr. Rothman [the 93 accuser’s first attorney] and Dr. Chandler [the 93 accuser’s father] to extort money from Michael Jackson. Throughout the entire ordeal Mr. Pellicano never changed his opinion. In a declaration filed by Mr. Pellicano in opposition to a Motion for Trial Preference and in support of Michael Jackson’s Motion for Stay of Discovery and Trial, he stated that Dr. Chandler and Mr. Rothman demanded twenty million dollars in the form of four—five million dollar payments for writing deals for Dr. Chandler’s services. Mr. Pellicano further stated that Dr. Chandler said he would ruin Michael Jackson if he didn’t get what he wanted and that he believed Dr. Chandler, directly or indirectly, found a way to make his claims public in retaliation for Michael Jackson not meeting his demand.
Michael Jackson’s attorneys filed extortion charges against Dr. Chandler and Mr. Rothman. Dr. Chandler and Mr. Rothman took the extortion charges seriously; each hired criminal defense attorneys. The extortion investigation made both of them very nervous. The investigator called Mr. Rothman, wanting to meet with him separately regarding the case. Mr. Rothman tried to reach Dr. Chandler all day concerning the meeting with the investigator.
When Dr. Chandler finally called to speak to Mr. Rothman, he took Dr. Chandler’s call in the associate attorney’s office located near my desk. I overheard Mr. Rothman tell Dr. Chandler that they needed to meet over the weekend and talk before speaking to the investigator to make sure their stories were the same. Mr. Rothman reiterated to Dr. Chandler that they needed to make sure they were both saying the same thing.
Mr. Rothman insisted that Dr. Chandler meet with him over the weekend before the meeting with the investigator which was to take place, I believe it was that coming Monday. After hearing Mr. Rothman make this statement to Dr. Chandler, there was no question in my mind that Michael Jackson was the innocent victim of an elaborate extortion scheme.
Although the extortion investigation did not generate the same media attention as the child molestation allegations did, underneath the surface, Mr. Rothman and Dr. Chandler were sweating bullets. Mr. Rothman began to let his guard down and was not being as careful as he had previously been. It appeared as if he was starting to lose control of his temper.
The media, on the other hand, did not give the extortion charges the same intensity, air time, and news attention as it did the child molestation allegations. The investigation of the extortion charges was not handled in the same manner as the child molestation allegations. No witnesses were subpoenaed…at least it wasn’t reported. There was no attention given as to whether or not search warrants were issued to search Dr. Chandler’s and Mr. Rothman’s home and office. They did not travel out of the country to investigate the extortion charges. All they did was investigate locally. Had the investigation of the extortion charges been as thorough as it was for the child molestation allegations, I would not be writing this book, giving the public information that should have already been reported.
(pgs 102-103)
|
Arkeni
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:33 am: |
|
Pellicano – The Investigator
…Convinced of Michael Jackson’s innocence, Mr. Pellicano worked around the clock, collecting evidence to be used at the trial which was scheduled for March 21 1994. It was Mr. Pellicano that produced a tape recorded conversation between Dr. Chandler and Mr. Schwartz [the 1993 accuser’s stepfather] in which Dr. Chandler admitted he was getting ready to execute a master plan which was going to destroy Michael Jackson if he didn’t get what he wanted.
The media played the tape recorded conversation all over the world. Even with this critical piece of evidence in Dr. Chandler’s own voice, the police did not take the extortion charges seriously. Even in the face of this, Mr. Pellicano continued to compile evidence to aid in Michael Jackson’s defense.
…At a press conference on August 24 1993, Pellicano stated that the allegations of child molestation were the result of a failed twenty million dollar extortion attempt. He specifically stated that because Michael Jackson refused to pay the twenty million dollars, his refusal resulted in child molestation allegations being launched.
I documented the last meeting between Mr. Pellicano and Mr. Rothman [the accuser’s first attorney] in my diary, which took place in Mr. Rothman’s office on Friday, August 13 1993. Mr. Pellicano stormed out of the office saying, “no way.” That following Tuesday, August 17 1993, Dr. Chandler took his son to see the psychiatrist who reported the child molestation allegations to the authorities.
What if Michael Jackson had agreed to pay the twenty million dollars? Would Dr. Chandler not have taken his boy to the psychiatrist? Could the visit to the psychiatrist in some way be a part of their plan? Make a mental note about this point which will be discussed in detail later on.
…The highlights of the extortion case were the sophisticated investigation work done by Mr. Pellicano’s office. It was Mr. Pellicano’s office that secured the audio taped conversation between Mr. Schwartz and Dr. Chandler and later the recorded conversation between Mr. Pellicano and Mr. Rothman.
Mr. Pellicano also interviewed numerous child witnesses that were close to Michael Jackson and who had spent time at his ranch. They included children that had also spent the night at sleep-overs and had also shared Michael Jackson’s bed. None of whom reported any wrongdoing by Michael Jackson -- only good clean fun, which included pillow fights, food fights, and pajama parties, and other childlike games.
Mr. Pellicano was later criticized for his efforts and accused of, “trying this case in the media.”
…I telephoned Mr. Pellicano and asked why he left the case. He told me he did not agree with the direction in which Mr. Weitzman was taking the case. He vehemently disagreed with the idea of settling with Dr. Chandler. He was angry at the thought of settlement and was fully convinced that if Michael Jackson would fight this out in court he would be exonerated. He further stated that he would have nothing to do with the settlement of this case. It was obvious that Mr. Pellicano was extremely angry and somewhat dismayed at the new direction in which the case was heading. He was genuinely upset that Dr. Chandler might get away with these charges and not be held responsible for his actions. Mr. Pellicano blatantly refused to pay what many felt was an extortion demand.
Mr. Pellicano never backed down from his opinion that this case was about extortion. He stated for the record in court documents that, “I have made statements to the effect that Dr. Evan Chandler and Barry Rothman are extortionists, because in my opinion that is exactly what they are.” (pgs 59-61)
from Redemption: The Truth Behind the Michael Jackson Child Molestation Allegations by Geraldine Hughes
|
Arkeni
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:37 am: |
|
View the tape here
http://site2.mjeol.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1565
DA Got Conned with LeMarque 'Witness' Story? -- MiniBullet #17
MARCH 31 2005 -- Did the District Attorney get conned during the first 1993 investigation with a story reportedly from one of his current witnesses-come-lately? Again, reportedly, the 9 witnesses the prosecutors want to call as a result of this 1108 "evidence" could include one or both of the LeMarques: Stella and Philippe LeMarque.
The LeMarques are ex-housekeepers who worked at Neverland. They also sold their story of allegedly "witnessing" molesation for tens of thousands of dollars.
An explosive documentary broadcast overseas includes some shocking on-camera admissions by former porn star turned "private investigation" Paul Barresi. By the way, you may recognize Barresi in some of the Diane Dimond "reports" about this "case". She uses him as a source in some of her reports; reports often broadcasted during Court TV's Crier Live.
But Barresi confesses that it was inconsequential to both him and the LeMarques whether or not Jackson was innocent or guilty. They had their hand out and he helped them sell their story. He also took his cut, of course.
The following is a video except from that program followed by a transcript of what was said:
*Requires the Flash 7 Player
Transcript:
(showing photographs)
PAUL BARRESI: These photographs were taken by a photographer who I had in place outside of the Lemarques' attorney's office. We're having cappuccino, coffee. They're discussing the money that they'd like to make off of this deal.
(voiceover translation): Stella and Philippe LeMarque were brought forward as key witnesses in the Jackson case. Their stories about Jackson abusing kids 'accidentally' ended up at the desk of the DA who handled the case, through a story in the tabloid press.
The French couple worked for Jackson for two years, until 1991. When the scandal broke, they turned to their friend, former porn star Paul Barresi. He told them he once sold a story to the National Enquirer for $100,000.
BARRESI: My interest in helping them was that they promised me a percentage of what they got. I was not on any kind of crusade to bring anyone to justice. And whether Michael was guilty or innocent at that point was inconsequential. My interest was strictly for the money, as was their interest too I might add.
KEVIN SMITH: Our job was to go to our various markets around the world and say, look, we have this couple, they are willing to say this, how much are you prepared to pay?
(voiceover translated to English): As a reporter, Kevin Smith tried to buy the story of the LeMarques. He had to do abroad to get more sources for money.
SMITH: Say Australia will say 'We've got $20,000'. For them, it's quite a cheap story and they've got a cracking story for $20,000. But that's not enough alone to tempt someone like the LeMarques to sell their story. So then you go to Germany, you get another $20,000. Go to Italy, another $20,000. Before you know it, you're up $100,000, $200,000 dollars. And that is enough for a family to, uh, come forward and talk.
I think they must have thought 'well if that's so easy, let's try for a bit more. And then it kept going like this until it got to $500,000 dollars.
BARRESI: We met Stella and Philippe, myself and a correspondent for Inside Edition. By then, I had heard the story probably a half a dozen times. And the only difference is, is this time I had a tape recorder in my belt. I wanted to seize an opportunity to sell their story myself.
Monday morning, I got up and I realized what I wanted to do with the tape. I wanted to take it to the District Attorney's office and turn it over to them as evidence.
I knew that the DA would be happy to receive this information with open arms. And, two, I knew how to play the tabloids like a harp.
(voiceover translated into English): By brining the tape to the DA, Barresi would not be charged with illegally taping a conversation. Also, it made the story even more juicy: if the DA and his department [were] dealing with the story, it would become 'inside information'.
BARRESI: That was the edge that worked well. If my story appeared in the slightest innocuous, they would throw it out the window. So this is one way to do it with grand style certainly.
So I called the editor at The Globe and I said 'I have a tape. I'm on the way downtown to hand it to the District Attorney'. And his words were 'Let us come with you'. And then I knew I had 'em.
The next thought in my mind was I'm gonna ask for $30,000. You always ask twice as much as what you hope to get. He put me on hold and within less than a minute, he came back and he said, 'well, we can't give you 30 [thousand dollars], we'll give you 10 [thousand dollars].
I said 'make it 15 [thousand dollars]'. He said, 'you have a deal'.
INTERVIEWER: Could you see the headline coming?
BARRESI: Oh yeah, sure. I could see that money coming too.
(voiceover translated into English): In the end, the DA decided that the stories of the LeMarques and that of the Quindoys (who also sold their story to the tabloids) could not be used. Hear Paul Barresi about the Quindoys…
BARRESI: The first time I heard the story about Jackson, his hand was outside the kid's pants. They were asking $100,000. As soon as their price went up to $500,000, the hand went inside the pants. So, come on.
(unidentified female): When you buy a story, there's always a shadow of doubt that -- are they telling you the truth or are they telling you what you want to hear.
(voiceover translated to English): Paul Barresi ended up making $30,000 on the Jackson story. Proof that everyone who wants to, can be a player in this field.
BARRESI: It's not unusual to find a former employer or a friend or even a family member coming forward with a story. But to have someone like me, who's completely detached from it all, is unusual. It's brilliant.
If the prosecution is going to call people like the LeMarques, they'd be practically writing the defense's cross-examination for them. It is ridiculous and it may show that the DA's office is/was being hoodwinked by these people. Or they simply couldn't care less about whether or not these peoples' stories are accurate.
Stay tuned.
-MJEOL
|
Arkeni1
Unregistered guest
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:45 am: |
|
In 1992, Michael Jackson met and befriended the Chandler family, becoming particularly close to 12-year-old Jordan, his half-sister Lily and their mother June Schwartz. Jackson often travelled with the family and they were frequent guests at his Neverland Ranch in Santa Barbara.
- According to June Schwartz's former divorce attorney Michael Freeman, the boy's father and June's ex-husband Evan Chandler "began to get jealous of their involvement [with Jackson] and felt left out."
- In June 1993, Evan Chandler hired attorney Barry Rothman to represent him in his custody case against June Schwartz. Rothman was not a family lawyer but he had recently handled a custody case that involved child molestation allegations.
- At Jordan's 8th grade graduation that month, Evan Chandler confronted his ex-wife with his alleged suspicions of sexual misconduct on Jackson's part. Freeman says that June Schwartz "thought the whole thing was baloney" and announced that she and her children still planned to accompany Jackson on his Dangerous world tour. According to Freeman, Chandler then threatened to go to the press with his suspicions.
- Chandler's behaviour prompted Jackson to hire lawyer Bert Fields and Private Investigator Anthony Pellicano. Taking Pellicano's advice, Jordan Chandler's stepfather Dave Schwartz recorded a telephone conversation that took place between him and Evan Chandler. On the tape, Chandler said:
"I had good communication with Michael. We were friends. I like him and I respect him and everything else for what he is. There was no reason why he had to stop calling me. I sat in the room one day and talked to Michael and told him exactly what I want out of this whole relationship. I've been rehearsed about what to say and not to say."
"[Jackson] broke up the family. [Jordan] has been seduced by this guy's power and money."
"I am prepared to move against Michael Jackson. It's already set. There are other people involved that are waiting for my phone call that are in certain positions. I've paid them to do it. Everything's going according to a certain plan that isn't just mine. Once I make that phone call, this guy is going to destroy everybody in sight in any devious, nasty, cruel way that he can do it. And I've given him full authority to do that."
"And if I go through with this, I win big-time. There's no way I lose. I've checked that inside out. I will get everything I want, and they will be destroyed forever. June will lose [custody of the son] and Michael's career will be over."
"[Jordan's welfare is] irrelevant to me. It's going to be bigger than all of us put together. The whole thing is going to crash down on everybody and destroy everybody in sight. It will be a massacre if I don't get what I want."
"This attorney I found, I picked the nastiest son of a bitch I could find. All he wants to do is get this out in the public as fast as he can, as big as he can, and humiliate as many people as he can. He's nasty, he's mean, he's very smart, and he's hungry for the publicity."
- Upon hearing the taped phone conversation between Evan Chandler and Dave Schwartz, Pellicano immediately interviewed the boy in question. According to Pellicano, Jordan Chandler denied any wrongdoing on Jackson's part.
- In mid-July, Evan Chandler convinced his ex-wife to allow him a one-week visitation period with their son. From that point on, the boy was isolated from his friends and family members.
- According to Rothman's former legal secretary Geraldine Hughes, Chandler was receiving advice from Rothman on how to report child abuse without liability to the parent.
- Taking Rothman's advice, Chandler contacted psychiatrist Mathis Abrams and presented him with a hypothetical situation (i.e- my son spent time alone with an adult male- is it possible that sexual abuse might have occurred and if so, what are the various ways that it can be reported to authorities?). In a written response to Chandler's phone call, Abrams wrote that if a child were to come out with sexual abuse allegations during a therapy session, the therapist would be required by law to report it to the police.
- Chandler took this letter and, according to Pellicano, attempted to blackmail Jackson with it. In a meeting that took place in early August 1993, Chandler allegedly made a demand for a $20 million screenwriting deal in return for his not going forward with the child abuse allegations.
- Several days after the meeting, Pellicano tape recorded a conversation that took place between him, Barry Rothman and Evan Chandler. On the tape, Rothman and Chandler can be heard negotiating the amount of money it would take to keep Chandler from going forward with the child molestation allegations. Chandler restated his demand for $20 million and, according to Geraldine Hughes, was later told by Pellicano that Jackson would not pay him any money. Keep in mind that if Jackson had paid Chandler at that point, the entire criminal investigation would have been avoided.
- According to an investigative reporter from KCBS-TV, Evan Chandler then gave his son a controversial psychiatric drug known as sodium amytal. It has been widely documented that you can easily plant false memories into a person's mind when they are under the influence of this drug.
- Evan Chandler claimed that he only used sodium amytal to pull Jordan's tooth and that while under the drug's influence, the boy came out with the allegations. According to Mark Torbiner, the anaesthesiologist who administered the drug: "If I used it, it was for dental purposes." Numerous medical experts have agreed, however, that the use of sodium amytal to pull a tooth would be a highly questionable practice at best.
- During an interview with a psychiatrist, Jordan Chandler recalled the first time that he told his father about the alleged sexual abuse. His story corroborates the allegation that his father used sodium amytal to extract a confession from him: "[My father] had to pull my tooth out one time, like, while I was there. And I don't like pain, so I said could you put me to sleep? And he said sure. So his friend put me to sleep; he's an anesthesiologist. And um, when I woke up my tooth was out, and I was alright - a little out of it but conscious. And my Dad said - and his friend was gone, it was just him and me - and my dad said, 'I just want you to let me know, did anything happen between you and Michael?' And I said 'Yes,' and he gave me a big hug and that was it." [Note: The transcript of Jordan Chandler's interview with the psychiatrist was made public by the boy's uncle Ray Chandler]
- On August 16th, 1993, June Schwartz's attorney filed an ex-parte motion on her behalf to assist her in getting her son back. While in court the next day, Chandler never made any mention of child abuse allegations. If Chandler had told the judge about the supposed suspicions he'd had for the past three weeks, the judge would have immediately ordered for the boy to be taken away from his mother. But Chandler said nothing, presumably because his plan was to report the abuse using a third party (the psychiatrist). By filing the ex-parte motion, June Schwartz had thrown her ex-husband a curveball. The court ordered Evan Chandler to return Jordan to his mother immediately.
- On August 17th, 1993, the same day that Jordan Chandler was supposed to be returned to his mother, Evan Chandler took him to see Dr. Abrams. While there, the boy came out with the sexual abuse accusations against Michael Jackson and so began the police investigation into alleged misconduct on Jackson's part.
|
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2528
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 01:49 am: |
|
Arkeni,
Mind drafting an executive summary of ALL OF THESE posts? Otherwise, I doubt you'll receive much feedback (other than eyerolling). |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 196
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 06:00 pm: |
|
LOL, ABM!
Yeah: summary, bullet points, headlines, Powerpoint, something! |
Kola
Moderator
Username: Kola
Post Number: 751
Registered: 02-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 06:06 pm: |
|
THIS THREAD
HAS BEEN MOVED HERE:
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/2152/4931.html?1114360714
BECAUSE IT HAS GOTTEN TOO LONG.
PLEASE POST ON THE "NEW" M.J. trial THREAD.
But not you Arkeni. You keep your behind over here with this boring technical crap that nobody's going to read.
OR....just give us your own OPINION. Flat out.
|
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 2601
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 02:43 am: |
|
Yvettep,
HAHA!
No joke: I’m a presentation junkie!
Whenever I see fancy bulletpoints, headings, titles and light pointers, things inside me tingle something right awful. |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 204
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 08:49 am: |
|
ABM, WE'RE GOING TO GET YELLED AT BY KOLA IF WE KEEP POSTING HERE. SHE TOLD US THIS BOARD HAS MOVED!
(LOL!) |
|
Email This Page