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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 09:29 pm: | 
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I read this book called No Excuses: Closing the Racial Gap in Learning http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743204468/aalbccom-20
I would recommend this book to any educator or person with a vested interest in our public school system (which should really include eveyone).
The books describes how Black students are essentially four years behind their white counterparts and futer behind Asians. Interestingly enough the authors (persumably white) immediatesly dismisses an innate reason for this gap -- despite showing that this gap is consistent in large sububan schools and middle class surburban schools.
An easy read (from a wording perspective) and throughly referenced this book is chock full of graphs and statistics which illustrates this problem.
The books really gets into why Black lag whites in learning. Sure, poorly run schools contribute, but WE are big part of the problem as well. 70 percent of our children grow up in single parent households. Your children watch upwards of 5 hours a day of TV (including school nights). We have, in general, a much lower expectation of grades we are satisfied with C's & B's. Blacks enroll into advanced placement courses in a much lower rate than whites, etc, etc.
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Teach One
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 10:19 pm: |
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One statistic that really proves you correct Troy is the fact that in the United Kingdom, "West African" students dominate the University Level G.P.A. over there in the same way that Asians do in the U.S.
White British are constantly astounded and confounded as to why, try as they might, they can't seem to match or surpass the high grades and intellectual dominance of the West African kids. The Asian kids come in 3rd in Great Britian Academia.
**Smile**
So there's definitely, as you said, a problem with US and with the mentality of our communities.
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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:42 am: |
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I'll have to check this out. Sounds like a similiar effect here in America with our West Indian Brothers and Sisters dominating University's and the job market to their American born counterparts.
Henry Louis Gates said when he started Yale almost all of his Black classmates had 4 grandparents born in America. Today 70% don't have 4 American born grandparents.
The funny thing is that Black American made real progress up until the 60's then things tailed off and reversed such that the net effect is that we've made no progress narrowing the gap here in the past 30 years. (The exact year may be slightly off, but you see my point).
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MF Jackson
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 11:20 pm: |
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For a group oppressed and prevented from learning or advancing for OVER 400 years, African-Americans are actually doing as well as any other group of people would if they had been placed in the same situation. Why is it that some people think that 400+ years of negative effects on our people can be FIXED in 140 years? Well, that's approximately how long it has been since we have been able to enter the educational systems, and not surprisingly, we are still behind our white and Asian counterparts.
I personally believe the school environment plays a big part in whether African-American children actually are even motivated. Were you aware that a longitudinal (done over many years with a very large sample) research study showed that african-american and white children are equal in abilities during the beginning of kindergarten but something happens during kindergarten, where they actually lag behind whites by the end of the year? And the lag continues and increases from then on. If environment was TRULY the culprit, as Troy asserted above, wouldn't you expect for the children to be behind the whites during the beginning also? This is an area that I am currently conducting research in (effects of racial composition of class and teacher on african-american students' behavior) as a psychologist and I would be interested in any further comments on this matter from others. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 12:36 am: |
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You seem to have a pretty good handle on the subject. But it always seems to boil down to the nature or nurture debate, doesn't it? So, you might also consider that middle income is not middle class and the reason that even black kids from better neighborhoods lag behind in their white counterparts is because their parents may have decent incomes but they don't provide an environment that emphasizes the right priorities. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 04:44 pm: |
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Excellent points, Cynique. And to build on what you say: Many good Black families "...don't provide an environment that emphasizes the right priorities." perhaps because many of them are themselves undereducated and may only be 1 - 2 generations removed from illiteracy.
So in you studies Dr. Jackson, perhaps you should consider the trajectory of the educational progression of Blacks to other Black and Whites of both similar and differing socio-economic backgrounds.
It might be worth reviewing or performing studies that compare a White kids 1 - 2 generations removed from the foothills of Appalachia to a Black kids 1 - 2 removed from the cottonfields of the Mississippi Delta. Then I might contrast the Black kids to another Black kids who are from +2 generations of affluence/education and then do the same with a White kids borne from families of similar privilege.
But the ‘cynic’ within me can’t help thinking the educational disparities between Blacks and Whites will disappear only when Black people begin to value education as rapaciously as we do pro-basketball, the latest fashion 'gear' and Hip Hop Music.
Teach One,
Please reference to any book/article that highlights the remarkable academic performance of West Indian Brits. For in their success may lie the pathway to help their American brethren. |
MF Jackson
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 07:33 pm: |
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You guys made a lot of great points! Thanks and I will definately consider looking further into the issues that you mentioned. |
Teach One
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 10:10 pm: |
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ABM...it's not West "Indian" Brits that dominate British academia.
It's WEST AFRICANS. Mainly from Ghana.
I watched a PBS documentary that had a rather brief reporting of the "phenomena", which has been going on for three decades now. I had also heard of this from teachers and from African students in the U.S. but I was not aware of the "dominance" of the West Africans at say--OXFORD--until I saw this documentary.
Another point made in the documentary was that African Americans traveling to Senegal should bring "pencils". The children of that country, for some odd reason, will gang up and kill for pencils. Schooling is 50 cents a week in that country, and the children desperately crave learning. African students, on the whole, seem to take "education" Extremely serious and are usually Top students in the U.S. as well.
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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Of course y'all are talking about the cream of the crop West Africans-- |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:59 pm: |
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THAT is a VERY relavant point, Chris. Wealthy/aristocratic West Africans students would like best MOST White students of ANY country. |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:04 pm: |
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MF Jackson: do me a favor read the book http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743204468/aalbccom-20 I'll even buy it for you if you would be willing to share your toughts about it after you read it.
MF Jackson, there are people who were ACTUALLY slaves that did better and were more literate than many of the children coming out of schools today.
No disrespect intended, but if we continue to tell out kids, in essence, that they can not be expected to learn in school or succeed because their great-great-great-great grand parents may have been slaves; then we are stunting their growth prematurely -- perhaps permanently.
Are you saying we need another 260 years to reverse the effects of slavery? Are you saying that 140 since slavery was abolished is not enough time for us to expect our kids to be literate after graduating from high school?
We -- the folks running around today -- have the ability to impact the lives of our children so much more than some white people who died 400 years ago.
ABM the authors of this book site studies which look at some of the things you describe aa well as the racial composition of the class and teacher on african-american students that MF is researching.
If I time to summarize the book in more detail I would, but it is such and accessible book people would be better served if they simply read it.
Chris, ABM regarding your points about the "cream of the crop" and "Wealthy/aristocratic" respectively, are you assuming that the performance of West African in the UK or the thirst for knowledge of students in Ghana are based solely/primarily on these things? Or is this just a convenient way to excuse our dismal performance and lack of desire for education, relative to these West Africans?
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Organized Lady
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:35 pm: |
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Teach One is right about the academic superiority of West African students, but I would like to add some interesting facts about a similar study that we read years ago when I was at Spelman.
1) The study pointed out that West African students DO NOT excel as much in the U.S. system--because they are "intimidated" and "obsessed" once put in physical proximity to African Americans. I found this fascinating, because they harbor all kinds of unresolved emotions and issues of "rejection" (yeah, beats me too) when it comes to interraction with their OFFSPRING--African Americans. Apparently the females feel a need to bond and be close to African Americans, but are usually rejected (even by AA females) based on differences in "acculturated LOOKS"--while the African males are more aloof and judgemental of AA's, although they are the ones the AAs wish to bond with. The study cited this as the reason West Africans dominate British, Russian and Middle European academia, but not the U.S.
2) Chris and ABM you're wrong about "wealthy/aristocratic". A great portion of West African students thrive on Scholarships. They are from very poor families. You should read Maya Angelou's books about when she lived in West Africa. She goes into detail about the poverty that those kids overcome just to go to school. In many cases, an entire village will work like crazy to send the one single most promising male to "university".
3) There's also a rather shocking film from Senegal called "Geelwaar" that shows young African girls working as LEGAL prostitutes to pay for their older brothers college tuition. Apparently, it's a common practice, sanctioned by the parents and the community. The (darkest skinned) or most disfavored daughters of a family are "rented out" as young as 12 to begin culmulating a College Fund for the brother. They receive a "Legal" prostitution identity card from the government while their lighter more favored sisters are sent to school or trained in "wifery" camps.
4) The study showed another fascinating fact--students from South Africa perform very poorly, and have almost identical study and knowledge gathering habits to African American students. The only African nation that tops South Africa for the "lazy dunce" prize--is Egypt. Both countries produce very bad students, but in the case of the Egyptians, it's the rigid social religion of Islam that keeps them from excelling in Eurocentric academia.
5) The highest achieving African students are 1)Ghana 2)Senegal 3)Nigeria 4)Benin 5)Kenya 6) Ethiopia 7)Mali and after that, I forget the rest. South Africa, Ivory Coast and Egypt are at the bottom.
**Kenya also has a "prostitution" program for young girls to accumulate tuition for their older brothers.
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Organized Lady
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 12:38 pm: |
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One more note.
Nigeria is the only nation that sends an almost equal number of male and female students to university.
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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 03:30 pm: |
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Organized Lady: Deep.
The book I reccomended falls short by only addressing the American situation. It is clear we can learn a lot by examining the successes and failures across the Diaspora and Africa.
Can you point to on-line resources that speak to the issues you raised?
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Troy
Regular Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 05:08 pm: |
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More about this book No Excuses: Closing the Racial Gap in Learning
I was just speaking with a very well respected academic (I won't mention the name but they are profiled on this web site) about the authors of this book. This particular professor felt one of the authors Abigail Thernstrom was racist.
I also understand Abigail Thernstrom was on C-Span's Book TV recently and came across as rascist there as well. Did anyone see this?
While I read the book and recommended it. I felt I had to share this opinion from a prominent source. Something to consider if you read the book.
As I reflect back on the book it seemed the authors really went out their way to emphasize there were no innate difference between blacks and whites. The biggest contributor to the education gap was effectively our actions.
Critics site an myriad of other factors which the Thernstroms seemed to have ignored or discounted (read: excuses).
I have to catch that C-Span interview
peace |
Blkmalereading
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkmalereading
Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 10:58 pm: |
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This is a very interesting post and I often wonder what will it take?
I wonder if we can dig up any research as to when this changed. Africans-Americans were also known for excellence. It could be argued that we also sent the best of our best to schools, so the same thing could be happening with the comparison of the West Africans. But I believe that people from other countries are forced and understand that education is VERY important it's the way 'out' for many who come from poor countries.
Have you ever watched a classroom in other countries compared to ours? I'm very surprised with the statistics of South Africa. I'm sure they suffer directly from the recent effects of racism and still reeling and dealing with that. They are also probably the most westernize country in Africa, could this be the reason?
It's an interesting debate. The stasts about the West Africans in America. Where are you gettng these stats? Could you let me know? I'm quite surprised. It's also interesting that African-Americans who are close friends with Africans, Caribbeans and Asians are known to fare better in school that other African-Americans who are not friendly with others outside of that group.
I don't think that economics plays a part in this equation. As many immigrants who can barely speak English and who struggle to survive seem to do better. I also wonder how many of the white kids are also Jewish, who also seem to have a higher standard when it comes to educating their children. |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 03:03 am: |
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I think once slavery was over, african americans had a particular respect for education, but since they have mostly assimilated, though they(we), aren't still treated as first class citizens, education has in some cases taken a back seat to many social maladies....part of getting an education is the importance that parent instill in their children....and if folk don't do then these kids will not make it a priority....but i think this is an US issue, broadly, not just a "black" issue....
But as usual, I don't accept position that limit or primarily account for ones' life based upon their efforts....I always think it is about what we do as individuals and what the state does that enables us to live under certain conditions......to me, just making everything about one's individual effort simplifies and erases the responsibility of state.....any real and clear analysis of history will make clear that regardless of race, class, gender, and ethncity the parameters in which people can do what they do is often dictated by the state....ie same sex marriages....the need for the civil rights act of 1964, voting 1965....different services that are provided in different communities and neigborhoods...all these variables are related to one's education in addition to individual effort.... |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 03:08 am: |
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otherwise....all that is being said is that africans are lazy....in no society is everyone citizen gonna have a college degree...so folk will be poor....but the question is, is that povery poorly about class or is also race and gender....i would say all of these categories are at work.... |
Cynique
Veteran Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 65
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 01:03 pm: |
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Do you believe in the concept of luck, Yukio? Considering that we are all at the mercy of the restraints placed upon us by society, does the reason some people randomly circumvent these restraints and achieve great success have anything to do with the metaphysics of luck? |
Yukio
Veteran Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 59
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 02:39 pm: |
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Yeah....i think it is luck, personal effort, and the ties that you make that allow folk to succeed, which is why i say that you bust yo azz in school and build networds that place you reach of your goals AND confront political, economic, social, issues that limit and/or prevent you from achieving your goals. It is a two front war--better yourself and better society!
I've been extremely lucky....if we consider the antwon fisher story....we can say that luckily he happened to chose the navy after a night of living off the streets and met this black therapist...he could have chosen the army...now, none of this "luck" I think takes away that the perservered, that he educated himself, etc.... |
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