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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 05:15 pm: | 
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Is the title of a book I'm currently reading. It is a short book full of anecedotes and to a lesser extent figures which relate to the story of being a Black man in America. Needless to say the issue of racism figured prominently in this book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743427157/aalbccom-20
Coincidently I came across the "Is Race a Given" post from Thumper's Corner: http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/173.html
I printed and read what turned out to be a 21 page thread and discovered we, Black people here in America, really need to discuss these issues.
One thing the Cose points out is there are circumstances where your own cynicism is a problem. Black people often have to ask, in effect, is this racism or am I paranoid?
This whole thought process, in my opinion, can be debilitating -- at the very least an unneccessary distraction. It is our reaction to this acutal or imaged racism which contributes to our lack of progress and our inability to reach our full potential as individuals.
Another problem we have is that we have become so brainwashed and cynical that we often see racism where it does not exist. Conversely we fail to see it where it does. Both conditions have yielded terrible consequences.
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L. Cohen
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 10:34 am: |
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Allow me to point out a wonderful biography of a free black man in Philadelphia. ""A Gentleman of Color: The Life of James Forten" written by Julie Winch tells about the life of a great black American hero. He fought in the Revolution and was a prisoner of the British. He returned to Philadelphia, where he made a fortune as a sailmaker and a businessman. Always, he struggled for the abolition of slavery. |
Beautifulwaterstar
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 08:53 am: |
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Hi, Troy. Interesting thread going on here..
Okay, you say: "Another problem we have is that we have become so brainwashed and cynical that we often see racism where it does not exist. "
As in which instances (examples)? Care to elaborate? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 12:25 pm: |
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Beautifulwaterstar, you seem to be a time-traveler, oblivious to anything as superficial as dates, proceeding with your posts as if "then" is "now". But no big problem, since thoughts and ideas exist in their own personal time zone. |
Beautifulwaterstar
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 12:33 pm: |
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Not so much "oblivious".. Time and space and Western man know them are of little interest to me. Anyway, are "then" and "now" not inseparable?
Can "now" be fully understood (or atleast 'better' understood) without first analyzing "then"? |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 12:45 pm: |
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Then and now are connected!
And "now" helps us understand "then," as "then" helps us understand "now," which is primarily the western way of understand time and space.....later...lmao! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 01:38 pm: |
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Of course these are all abstract issues, but it's very possible that what Troy said in a post dated March 3, 2003, may not be relevant to what you inquire about in a post dated August 24, 2003, the point being that I'm always a little suprised how lately you've revived threads that started months ago. But then, as I said, it's no big problem.And I certainly won't argue with the concept of now and then being simultaneous. I went out last night at midnight and stood in my back yard and gazed up at the planet Mars which is currently closer to earth then has been in thousands of years. Looking up at a dazzling sight that nobody on earth today has ever seen, and nobody on earth today will ever see again, I realized my place in the universe and just how insignificant it is. My mind was also boggled by the fact that there are things about this existence that I will never comprenhend. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 01:55 pm: |
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You ladies are swimming on the deep-end with your talk about what constitute "now" & "then". But do yur thang. One of my dreams is that a Black person dismantles Einstein Theory of Relativity, which is the genesis of much of the recent "Western" theories of space & time.
Beautifulwaterstar, I don't fully agree that black people see racism where it doesn't exist. I think racism/sexism/prejudice is so inbred into our culture/dogma/mindset, that you truly can find it everywhere. I, however, think that we often overemphasize certain manifestations of racism.
I, for instance, think the South Carolina Confederate flag issue, though important, has been grossly overblown by both Black & White people. I also recall hearing that Black Texas lawmaker nonsensically asserted that hurricanes should be giving more "Black sounding" names. Stormy monikers such as Shaniqua or Tyree would provide the desired "racial diversity", I suppose. And I even think the NAACP should focus less on adding Black faces to TV programs and more on encouraging and supporting Black education, commerce, science & technology.
But because there is too little solidarity among us, many of us waste precious time/energy ranting about cockamamie issues. This lack of focus distract us from discerning what are the most vital issues at hand and, thus, impede us from formulating strategies for effectively addressing those issues. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 02:20 pm: |
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This is very true. Unfortunately, we, like most people though it matters more to us b/c we're black, obfuscate and abate relevant issues to the point that they can become irrelevant.
Consider, the commercial where Halle Berry walks into a restaurant and waves to white friends, as she passes them go sits in a segregated portion of the restaurant. Now, i appreciate the commericial, but then they say imagine if MLK didn't have a dream! Thats going toooooo faarrrr.....MLK was important but he wasn't the movement, and he only participated for 13yrs.....the freedom movement isn't even over...
Whats my point? The US has assimilated MLK's legacy and the Civil RIghts movement to such a degree that it all boils down to MLK and integration. |
Beautifulwaterstar
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 03:01 pm: |
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lolol @The Halle Berry/"MLK's Dream" thing. LOL
Cynique, the thing is.. I didn't know about this board until a couple of weeks ago. So what is old to everyone else is new to me in regards to threads.. And really, I can't help it. I really wanted to check out such a board, but did not know where in the world it would be.. When I was trying to order a book through Third World Press, I happened to go to the bottom of the page and see the link for this discussion board and have honestly been enjoying it eversince.
Hi there, ABM. (Hey, does that stand for ANGRY BLACK MAN!? :p Just buggin', eventhough it probably does. lol :D) Mmkay. I didn't um say that thing about black ppl seeing racism where it doesn't exist, Man. lol I was asking Troy to elaborate before I commented on it.. Plus, I almost totally agree with what you have said, especially with the point of our being too easily distracted. Even the whole "KILL WHITEY" thing is really a distraction when we think about it, because why focus on "killin' whitey" when we should first be focused on our upliftment?
But on the NAACP, what can we expect? I am in no way trying to ignore the positive that 'has' come from the association, 'but' for the most part, it's kind of like seeing a nothing but black people in a fish market; selling the fish, running the registers, cooking the fish, answering the phones.. At closing time, a couple of white people come by to check on how things have been going there business wise. Then you realize that none of the black people own it. The NAACP is not to far from this, so what can we expect? lol It is in no way UNIA.
Now about the whole Confederate flag deal, since I come from The South, I know how overexaggerated it really is not (in 'my' opinion still)... But then again, black people should no matter where they are from in America probably shouldn't feel too differently about the American flag if they have such a problem with the Confederate one.
Speaking of black education, what (if anything) do you feel should be done with the curriculum? |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 06:20 pm: |
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Yukio, I have not seen the Berry commercial that you refer to so I am unprepared to cite any similarities or congruencies between the commercial and the legacy of MLK. However, I agree that Dr. King's importance to the progression of Civil Rights, though vital, was not all-inclusive. And Black people are the biggest culprits behind the inane and counterproductive "deification" of Dr. King. We have (almost sinfully) made Dr. King into some godlike "idol" to be trotted out to boost our sagging egos and self-esteem and morally vanquish our would-be adversaries. But the difference now is White people have caught on to that game and have, by divulging info about MLK's personal indiscretions and citing segments of his speech that appear to be anti-Affirmative Action, cleverly begin to wield our hero worship of King against us.
That is why I have advocated a full and honest accounting of Dr. King, good/bad/ugly, so that, although we should still honor/recognize his achievements, we can perhaps begin to move away from investing all of our ethical and righteous efforts and energies into a man who sadly was killed over 30 years.
Beautifulwaterstar, I for one don't mind your re-igniting the discussion of a subject on this board that had not been inactive. Your new/fresh perspective might bring to lite some important aspect of the issue that we all heretofore were unaware of.
Your guess is correct concerning the BM, but not the A. I am not "ANGRY". The "A" in ABM just stands for "A".
And I am empathetic to the particular plight of Southern Black people. I was born, partly raised and educated in Mississippi. So I am personally (& often painfully) aware of how very backwards the South can be. But my point is how can we expend so much time/energy about a symbol, something that most people hardly even look at, when Black Southerners are arguably the most impoverished, undereducated, impoverished, underemployed, malnourished people in the US. When I consider those very real problems, I find all the rigmarole over that silly a$$ flag to be infuriating.
LORD, I could go on, and on....AND ON ad infinitim about what should be done about education. And much of what I say would likely confuse and enrage both White and Black people. But to address your question, I think much of the curricula should be radically altered to include much more real-world application of current/future concepts and methodology. And Black schools in particular must focus on more quickly inspiring and preparing entrepreneurs, scientists and engineers. Simply, I school should prepare every Black child by the age of 12 to run his/her own business and by the age of 15 to fully understand and adequately perform the Scientific Method. |
Beautifulwaterstar
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 11:42 am: |
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Yow, ABM, U ain't gotta lie tuh kick it, Mane. I know dat "A" really stands for "Angry", but it's okay.. :-D Just buggin'.
Okay. You said:
**"But my point is how can we expend so much time/energy about a symbol, something that most people hardly even look at, when Black Southerners are arguably the most impoverished, undereducated, impoverished, underemployed, malnourished people in the US. When I consider those very real problems, I find all the rigmarole over that silly a$$ flag to be infuriating."**
I DEFINITELY feel U, don't get me wrong, BUT I still feel where a lot of southern blacks are coming from with their greatly wanting that flag to be taken down.. See, the thing is (and I remember your saying that you were born/partially educated in Mississippi and all still) for many, many years that symbol was used in The South almost everytime blacks were terrorized via KKK/lynchings and such.
Now while it has no power whatsoever over me (because I know that the fear behind it works both ways), I understand that the only reason I feel this way is because I do not "allow" it to have any power over me.. I know that without "my" power, it is powerless, just like I know that without the collective power willed over by blacks, it is powerless. Only "then" is it but a mere symbol, but symbols are just road maps for the psyche and unless the individual/collective reprograms the application/retrieval of the program symbols can activate, they (symbols) will keep helping to lead the individual/collective down the same path, regardless of how unproductive this all might be.
Now as I have said, the main reason it has no power over me is because I do not give it power over me.. I used to get really pissed off when I was younger anytime I saw caucasions with their Confederate flag t-shirts and stuff like that, but as I got older and saw that the primary energy behind their behavior was fear, I recognized that I was no longer in the box. However, look how many black southerners are still in that particular box. You know 'why' they are still in this particular box? Well.. How can one take him/herself "out" of the box when they do not even know that "the box" exists?
And by all means, YES, we DO need to focus on the things that are really affecting us, but I feel that there are just so many boxes that we have to bring to light (so that they can then be removed if necessary) before any real progress is made.. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 12:49 pm: |
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Beautifulwaterstar,
Well then, after having said all that, I ask you a simple question: What will eradicating ALL such Confederate regalia do for enhancing the lot of Black people?
NOTHING!
Black folks need to stop getting played, especially by those who pretend to be their allies.
All the hubbub over the flag was done to create an easy and convenient rally point for opportunistic Blacks and liberal Whites (many of whom are political carpetbaggers from the North) to gather and wield the political and financial fidelity and support of Southern Blacks. Frankly, all of the marching, protesting, jousting and arm-twisting would have been MUCH BETTER applied toward urging improved educational and economical opportunity and access for Black South Carolinians.
Consider: Many slave raids, lynches and crossburnings were also accompanied by the US flag and the Holy Bible. So where's the call for tossing the Stars & Stripes and the Good Book?
And really, I am not at all ANGRY about much of anything. "A" does just mean "A". I feel I am the most blessed Black man that I know.
BTW: How would YOU improve our trouble educational systems? |
Beautifulwaterstar
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 02:33 pm: |
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Hi again there, ABM. Hey, remember what I initially said in response to the issue of the Confederate flag? This is what I said:
**"Now about the whole Confederate flag deal, since I come from The South, I know how overexaggerated it really is not (in 'my' opinion still)... But then again, black people no matter where they are from in America probably shouldn't feel too differently about the American flag if they have such a problem with the Confederate one." **
So basically, I was saying the same thing you just said in regards to both of the flags, because both of them are crappy and basically represent the same things.
LOL@the holy bible. Oh yes, of course. Killin'/rapin'/enslavin' ppl in the name of GAWD.. But of course; it's the righteous path! lol
No, you don't particularly strike me as a little angry soul or anything like that, I'm just a playful lil' spirit.
Now I agree with you on many of the things you said about redirecting our energy towards other things and in other ways, but you know something I've come to acknowledge (just my perceptions still)? Everyone and everything plays their/its own part. I really used to only admire ppl like Malcolm, Fela, Huey, Che, George Jackson etc. I used to feel that Martin Luther King (and I was relatively young with these feelings) was just a butt kisser and stuff like that. But not every individual is reached in the same way..
Let's take Martin and Malcolm for example. U see, there were many people that would not think twice about listening to Malcolm because of his seemingly more aggressive approach.. And guess what? There were many people who would not think twice about listening to Martin because of his seemingly more passive approach. But it's all about balance for the most parts and the realization that one cannot know left without knowing right; one cannot know health without knowing illness and so on, nah mean?
So my thing is.. I do not agree with everyone's method, as many of them might not agree with mine, but I think that the most important thing is a common goal, no.. That is not enough. I think the most important thing is to be "passionate" and "dedicated" to actually working towards/realizing/achieving that common goal.
Now there will be some of us that simply will not
work towards our upliftment, but make them stay where they are. (It also helped me to realize a long time ago that not everyone has the same path and that only the individual can walk it anyway, no matter how you buy him/her new shoes.) But for those of us who "will", I feel that we must all define our areas of specialty, our individual paths so that we can all come together and walk our path as a collective.
As far as the curriculum (for black education)is concerned, the first thing I would do is work towards giving black children a darn reason to "want" to come to school.lol I mean who wants to sit up all day and learn about everything and everybody else except "Self"? I certainly did not, but then again, I had parents that made sure my education did not stop when I left school grounds. I feel that young black students should be required to learn about African (continental and Diasporan) history (yes, I know that "Africa" is a "continent", but I am basically speaking in general terms for right now)as well as the current events in regards to the aforementioned.
I think that these students' personalities should be better assessed so their teachers better understand their learning styles. It's quite ridiculous how many students (no less intelligent than their classmates) have been thoughtlessly shoved into "Special Ed" classes or drugged up with "Ritalin" just because noone took the time to look deeper. Then what happens to these students? Unless a teacher with half a heart and ears that are willing to actually listen comes along (which is very rare these days. I think my mother might be the last one.lol) to suggest his/her placement and whatnot be reexamined, they usually end up down Crap Creek, regressing more and more, their little minds just collecting dust and their will eventually becoming nonexistent.
Okay, there's alot more I would like to say about that, but I think that that is just a glimpse of the 'beginning' of educational reconstruction.
Also, I am a firm believer in black autonomy, and I am in no way saying that our children should chant "Kill Whitey" for the school's national anthem (lol As many ppl seem to think about blk autonomy), but I "am" saying that black people here must (from a young age)start to learn to be able to do their thing within but without White America and this different (in my eyes) more productive/sensible (atleast at this point in time) mindset starts with a different type of programming. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 11:49 pm: |
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I think we need to have literacy programs for everyone, children and parents. I think the secret to a solid education is instilling good study and learninig habits early. If ya children see you read, they'll want to read. If they see you use the dictionary, they'll want one too....parents need to be more conscious about the educationaly process, so that they can ask the right questions to teachers, principals, etc....i guess, i'm saying that parents need to be re-educated and respect what education means and can do for a child.... |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 08:01 pm: |
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Beautifulwaterspirit & Yukio,
Your suggestions for sound worthy and useful.
But whenever I hear and read about possibly adding literacy programs, diversity studies, teachers paying special attention to differences in learning styles and capacity, etc. to improve schools, I can't help asking the same critical series of Yes/No questions:
1) Do I trust the current school management and administration to make those programs operate effectively & efficiently?
2) Can those added programs & activities be created/executed within the schools' current legal, social, political & economic constraints?
3) And [which is dictated by my answers to 1) & 2)] am I willing to PERSONALLY cut a check to help fund those programs?
Invariably (& regrettably), my answer to each of those questions is an emphatic NO! |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 12:01 pm: |
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ABM:
My proposals, i assume since i'm know nothing about educational management, would require the current school management and administration to change. I believe that changing the program will not work effectively without changing the institution.
Diversity Programs:
Although my I believe in diversity, again, i really don't believe that this country would really be willing to train teachers and create curriculms to do this. I like, and agree with, beautiful's suggestion but it'll never happen. This country and therefore this educational system is about producing loyal Americans not africanized african americans, so we must do this at home.
Literacy Programs:
Literacy programs, however, are something this country will/could advance. It is something all children need, regardless of race and ethnicity. In fact, i've seen on BET how some churches and black organizations have literacy programs in the public libraries. I proposed a literacy program for children and adults. As my last post illustrated, i believe that children learn much of their habits and skills from their parents, though some children will with their own initiative develop different skills and habits. Nevertheless, i believe that if parents are literate and they understand the significance of education then they'll have their children reading at a young age and especially reading for enjoyment. Obviously, a person like you wouldn't need to take such a program, but a couple both barely completing high school and working at taco bell and wall mart more than likely will not read the newspaper, have time magazine laying around, etc.....
So fundamentally, i'm really talking about making parents more active in their childrens' education. Similarly, these parents, if they are so inclined, could also teach their children about their culture, ie Africa and the diaspora. Part of parenting is educating the children on their culture, tradition, and daily living; we have forgotten all three, leaving most of this to the failing educational system. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 06:47 am: |
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I agree ALL AA's should be encouraged to learn more about our own culture. But if we materially supplant the current pedagogical methods with more Afrocentric programs without building surrounding communities where possessing AA-based knowledge and skills can be effectively utilized, then, no matter how psychologically & emotionally fulfilling such activities may be, we are ultimately still preparing the children to fail as many of them sadly already do.
The direction of the society dictates the direction of the schools, not the reverse. Schools are economically, politically, socially, moral/ethically, and in many instances, religiously supported via their surrounding communities. There is no more the reflection of magnificent successes and utter failures of a community than are its schools. Yet, it often seems as if we expect our schools to be almost magically endowed with salvational powers that transcend even our own failings and adequacies.
Yukio, you are correct when you suggest that true school reform has begun and must continue to occur outside of the formal educational construct with parents and local churches, civic groups, business assuming primary roles/duties. How do we encourage more communities to acquire the desire and the skills to be as responsible as those to which that you briefly eluded? |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 30, 2003 - 09:33 pm: |
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ABM:
I think the encouragement would be through educating the black population of what it means to have a h.s. degree, a college degree, the money it takes, the loans, the increase opportunities, etc...This "re-education" would illustrate how folk remain in the "ghetto" and especially what literacy has to do with all of this; how they need to participate in the civic arena, and how their participation could change their social and political economic status. The basics of the specific relationships between parents, children, education, and the future of the community could be discussed. Much of this goes on with some churches, WOrlD Changes does similar work, i've been told.
I think it could be done by ol' fashon organizing....holding lectures, workshops, etc...churches community centers...the substance of these lectures, workshops, etc...would be the basics of learning, literacy, school curriculms, school management, etc...
basic questions like, what does literacy have to do with my day-to-day life would be answered...from writing checks, reading newspapers, completing applications, understanding what u sign, your rights as a citizen, etc...... |
Gene_6pack
Newbie Poster
Username: Gene_6pack
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 03:35 pm: |
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As a white man who risked social standing to oppose segregation and Jim Crow, because I recognized they were machines to oppress whites as well as Blacks [what do you mean, a raise? I got hald a dozen darkies ready to do your job for half what I pay you>]
I would have selected Adam Clayton Powell for a hero if you needed one, but you don't. Rosa Parks rode to fame on a bus, not a limosine.
Bussing was a disaster for blacks and for society in general, because it empathized the difference rather than the comonality. |
Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 03:36 pm: |
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More and more this society is celebrating the diversity rather than the commonality of people. And, back in the day, busing was a tactic blacks used to dramatize a grievance. |
Yukio
Newbie Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 04:34 pm: |
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Hmmmm.....
I'm not sure how busing was a disaster because ht emphasized difference rather than commonality.
Busing was a last resort. It was used because urban public schools, which once educated white kids, were underfunded and poorly equipped to educate blacks kids. Public schools are paid for by property taxes, no property owners, then no new books, valuable facilities, etc....When the white middle class left to escape black folk, the question of integration had to be re-evaluated. Black leaders and the community, therefore, sought redress through going to better schools, which were often in white neighborhoods.
Where does diversity and commonality fit into this? Or perhaps, I'm unclear of what yall are talking about. If so, excuse me. |
Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 05:05 pm: |
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OK, Yukio, I should've said that busing was the end result of demonstrations which were staged as a tactic to dramatize the inequities in the public school systems.
And, Gene 6-pack seemed to be lamenting the fact that blacks and whites have lost their commonality and I pointed out that appreciating diversity seems to be the trend nowadays,
I guess my ambiguous responses to Gene 6-pack were caused by my being anxious to respond to someone who seems anxious to show black folks the error of their ways. |
Yukio
Newbie Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2004 - 06:22 pm: |
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Cynique, my reply was to both of you and anyone who wanted to answer.
Gene_6 pack:
If you are talking about jim crow and using busing as an example of how the movement went wrong then it is a poor one.
The movement was about having equal access to economic, political, cultural, and social institutions and being equally protected under the law, ie...all the rights and privileges of an US citizen. The movement used the strategy of integration and humanity as a tool for change...this was only commonality that blacks have ever been interested in.
Now, we are infact different and similar culturally, but this should not cause problems?
In fact, blacks did not want to lose their churches, their literature, their cuisine, their music, in other words, manifestations of their culture. Those who socially and culturally integrated did so because they believed that their own culture had little value?
In this context, if we have something in common what is the standard/basis for this commonality? |
Gene_6pack
Newbie Poster
Username: Gene_6pack
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 10:52 pm: |
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Go look at East Palo Alto and tell me that bussing kids out to Woodside High, where they all sat at their own tables and stood in their own spot on the playground and rode home did them any good.
Bussing was to punish whites but it missed there, and yet the burden fell on blacks and hispaics because it doesn't take thought to buy a bus. Because blacks left home for high school, the other institutions of culture suffered. |
Yukio
Regular Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 01:10 am: |
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gene_6pack:
you're making the assumption that the purpose of busing was for social integration. Black folks wanted the resources!
There is a fundamental difference between economic and political integration and social and cultural....
I can imagine kids saying something like this:
"We don't need or necessarily want to sit with white kids, but we do want better books and skills! Our schools don't have the facilities dem white kids schools have...I wonder why?" |
Gene_6pack
Newbie Poster
Username: Gene_6pack
Post Number: 12
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 06:56 am: |
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I know what the theory was, I just don't buy it. a half hour more education time rather than riding time, and a bus worth of teaching aids instead of a bus would have been far more beneficial to the students. Bussing was to punish whitey and like most such actions, like burning Watts, mostly harmed blacks. Kinda like how "every day is push day" makes it difficult to get a pizza or a cab in Hunter's Point. |
Yukio
Regular Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 10:16 am: |
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forget theory, i'm talking about money and the role of state in providing services to the black community....instead of bitching about busing you should think about why some thought it was necessary.....think first...your comments are reactionary.....to put it plainly....the isssue was about the relationships between civil society and the state....the state gave to some citizens and not to others....simple! |
Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 37
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 12:48 pm: |
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Tell em, Yukio! I think our friend Gene is just short of a 6 pack. How can anybody who can't even spell the word "busing" speak with authority on this subject. LOL |
Yukio
Regular Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 34
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 02:46 pm: |
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don't know, but he is! I did notice the misspelling, but i've been guilty of myself.... |
Gene_6pack
Newbie Poster
Username: Gene_6pack
Post Number: 13
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 11:08 pm: |
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If you are happy with sugar tits, go with it, but an education [a real education, not some Kumbaya crap] is a pearl beyond price. California was never Mississippi, and by the time Ravenswood High School in East Palo Alto [My daughter's school] was abandoned in favor of scattering kids to the four winds they would have qualified for far more special funds that, instead, went to the whitey schools where it might trickle down to some blacks, but not likely. They have their bus, so we can forget about them.
Later, we can troll them through some university and then camp them in some sinecure.
And you bought it. Suckers! When blacks love their own kids more than they hate whitey, perhaps they will arrive.
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Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 01:09 am: |
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You need to come into the 21st century, Gene 6-Pack. When did what you're griping about happen? It's hard to relate to your grievance because your frame of reference is an isolated situation in a remote school district in the huge state of California. Furthermore, busing black kids to white schools is no longer a priority on Black America's agenda. BTW, I can't remember the last time I heard someone use the term "whitey". And your use of the term "darky" in another of your posts was almost an insult. That word went out way back when, even before "colored" and "negro." Actually, I'm surprised you haven't referred to blacks as "You people." Get up to speed, buddy. |
Gene_6pack
Newbie Poster
Username: Gene_6pack
Post Number: 14
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 09:15 am: |
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How undefeatably racist you are. You can not get beyond our differences to examine the evidence.
I'm out of here. |
Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 39
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 11:24 am: |
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What does my not being able to distill a salient point out of all of your vague contentions have to do with racism? If you can't come up with a better rebuttal than that, then you don't have much of an argument. What I wrote to you will have no impact on all the privileges that accrue to you solely because you have white skin. And it might interest you to know that I never agreed with school busing. I have always been into the neighborhood concept of schools. I'm out here, too. In Chicagoland. |
Yukio
Regular Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 35
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 08:41 am: |
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Gene_6pack:
You're comments are too particular; you're using one example to make a point, but the questions is, is your example representative of the busing situation? Also, besides telling us what happened, you should consider WHY? you saying nothing about the WHY....you keep talking about what we did as a last resort...as if we really had that much power.....
Also, it seems that you're wallowing in the fact but not understanding it! Again, black people werent' concerned about going to school with white kids, they wanted resources, which the state wouldn't provide....but they would provide a bus....so talk to your state legislature and stop crying! Don't confuse what happened with what most black people want or ever wanted....
if you consider that many of the socalled educated black people live in a middle class black neigborhood with a middleclass black school...why? cuz they want to be with their own, and now they can get the education without going to white communities.....
Cynique: check Thomas J. Sugrue, The Origins of the Urban Crisis: race and inequality in postwar detriot....interesting analysis, i'm sure some of the info. applies to chitown! |
Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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School busing was a phase of the civil rights movement. And I think it can be considered a failure because it fell short of its goal. It was not only about better resources but about racially balancing schools to achieve diversity in the class room. When the civil rights movement progressed to the stage wherein it was acknowledged that integration didn't really work because it called for blacks to white wash themselves, then the enthusiasm for school busing got lost in the transistion. Unfortunately, black students are still lagging behind their white peers whether they attend an all-black school or a mixed one. This situation will prevail as long as a preoccupation with rap music and the bling-bling life style continue to stunt our youth, and as long as black parents don't instill a better set of values in their children. Of course, this is a simplistic evaluation of a complicated situation but if these 2 hurdles could be cleared the battle will be half won. |
Yukio
Regular Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 37
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 02:50 pm: |
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hmmmm....i don't know cynique. I'm not sure what the national position of the naacp was, but i'll check, but from a the few monographs and informal interviews i've done, most of what i was told and read pertained to resources...material issues not the goal for diversity.
Also, i'd have to slightly disagree with you about the hip hop music. It is really the parents' failure and i guess the family in general to provide the child or children with certain values. I know black and white youth who excel and love and embrace themselves in hip hop and the socalled bling, bling.....you can listen to the music w/o allowing it to consume your way of life and values. If this happens, it is because the parents have done their job!
3 more points: (1) i don't see the difference between the bling, bling (jewelry) and similar symbols of one's finances that black and white middle classes are preoccupied with, such as traveling certain places(though not for cultural refinement), owning certain cars, living in certain neigborhoods, belonging to certain clubs, etc.....
whether bling bling or clubbing in europe (but not visiting the museums or what ever it is that make europe what it is)both are ostentatious...this is the American way, in fact.
(2) also, regardless of race, class, ethnicity...if you're schools have shitty teachers and resources...how valuable is your education?
(3)also, again regardless of race, class, ethncity, it is normal for most societies to have a segment of the populations that is both poor and uneducated....everyone can enter the middle-class..... i do believe that even when you're poor if you use the library you can supplement what you lack in schools, though this method is not one many chose to follow....hubert harrison did this as well as james baldwin...and i'm sure others but all of us don't have it in us.....white or black....some of us are just regular, average folk....doing lower service sector work..... |
Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 41
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 07:20 pm: |
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The NAACP was just one organization under the broad umbrella of the civil rights movement, and its involvement was with the legal aspect of it. School busing ended up being a political football at local levels. Blacks may have been inspired to demand busing in order to have access to better resources, but some whites also wanted it so their children could be exposed to a school environment that mirrored the real world. In the end, everybody became disenchanted.
In regard to your other comments, we just can’t keep justifying what blacks do by saying that whites do it too. What we are concerned with is the black problem, not the white problem. And, yes, "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy", but a balance has to be struck. This is where conscientious parenting comes in. Too many black youngsters want to grow up to be Rap or basketball stars so they can afford the bling-bling lifestyle. White kids, on the other hand, compartmentalize their affinity for hip hop and go on to pursue viable avenues to finance their materialism. If blacks could just bottle the secret formula that makes one youngster rise above adversity and succeed, while another lags behind and falls through the cracks. But motivation is a very elusive entity.
No denying America is in the midst of an educational crises and what’s worse, I just read where a high school diploma now has little value in the work place. I am not optimistic about the future. George Bush may be putting the pieces in place for a global empire but this country’s domestic failings will be its downfall.
I know I'm just rambling. Should'nt have drunk that glass of wine. Hummmmmmmmmmm
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Yukio
Regular Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 02:06 am: |
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cognac would've have done ya better..lol!
i make the point about all americans not to justify, but to state the fact that it is an american problem, which needs needs to be addressed throughout the society, and then we can gear certain issues in particular ways. In my oppinion, framing these issues as "black problems" when they're societal problems make it seem like there is something wrong with us rather than something being wrong with BOTH people and society. Finally, these "problems" should be conceptualized into both class and race, since i know many PWT who want to be rappers too and will probably live most of theirs lives working at the mall and from their girl friends public assistance. In other words, individuals and the state need to address these issues; u can't do one without the other! |
Yukio
Regular Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 39
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 09:01 am: |
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also, GWB is fortifiying an empire that begun with the colonization of north america......then the phillipines, hawaii, puerto rico, haiti(15yrs or so), and others throught the early and mid 20th century... |
Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 43
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 12:41 pm: |
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Yukio, I just hope Gene-6pack read your comments because you set him straight. He was gettin on my nerves with his presumptuous attitude, thinking he could just bust in here, sounding like some plantation owner talking about sugar tits and darkies, telling black folks what was wrong with them, and I just wanted to unnerve him! He was probably used to getting on his soap box and sounding off to a bunch of people who all agreed with his point of view. It's guys like him who comprise Bush's constituency |
Yukio
Regular Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 04:37 pm: |
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cynique: yes, his commentary was a departure of his personal life, which may be interesting but not necessarily representative of a national movement....his comments only meaning something to him....not people who know better!....i think in general, there is a poor unstanding of power in these conversations, since folks are quick confuse moral values with social and political economic...my ten cents.... |
Cynique
Regular Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 16, 2004 - 05:37 pm: |
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In all of Gene-6 pack's other posts there were certain comments that were red flags to an anti Bush person like me. I think you can profile Bush supporters. Political pundits do it all the time |
Theprophetess
Regular Poster
Username: Theprophetess
Post Number: 33
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 05:47 pm: |
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ABM'S STATEMENT:"I, for instance, think the South Carolina Confederate flag issue, though important, has been grossly overblown by both Black & White people."
MY REPLY: Hello ABM, my handle is TheProphetess. I just had to stop reading and comment on the above comments of yours. I could not disagree with you more on the 'flag' issue. The fact is friend, black people's tax dollars are going to pay for that damnable flag to fly over government buildings.
Whoever heard of a such an evil, a nation the U.S. warred against flag flys proudly over U.S. buildings, and black people are forced to support it via our tax dollars. Well, we warred against the Germans, Japanese, Iraq, Afghanstan so let's fly their flags over U.S. buildings. All hell would break loose at the thought of such a thing.
Yet, the demonic spirit of white racism allows for their southern WHITE brothers to do just that, fly a enemy flag of the U.S. over government buildings of which ALL taxpayers, including blacks pay for.
Well, as some disgusting specimens have in vainly sought to justify, 'well, this war was fought on American soil, so it doesn't count.' Well, so was the Spanish/American wars so let's fly Mexico's flag over U.S. buildings. What of the Indians? Do they have flags, let's fly their flags over U.S. governmental buildings.
If we will not fly those flags then it is demonic racism that exalts the white man as one with the constitution and able to do that which we wouldn't even fathom to do for foreigners. It is a major 'fuck you' insult to blacks to fly that flag and make black's tax dollars (automatically taken out) to go to pay for it.
It is an abominable, arrogant, act of white demonic defiance and thus, a veeeeeeeery big deal. Do not ever forget that, ABM...we are dealing with a demonic, ruthless, filthy, abominable, arrogant, defiant lot and the 'flag issue' oh so well, represents that ungodly reality. Do not forget it...and do change your disposition.
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Abm
Newbie Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 04, 2004 - 06:42 pm: |
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Theprophetess,
I too find it "abominable" that the insignia of a defeat enemy of the US can proudly wave above one of our state capitol buildings. And I am surprised that some of our "patriotic" Americans haven't charged those responsible for such with treason. But there are MANY more grave and grievous offenses that have been committed via the misappropriation of "black people's tax dollars" than some crappy flag (see the current fallacious war in Iraq as a prime example). So while I empathize with and share some of your resentment towards SC's flag, if I am sincerely interested in helping Black South Carolinians, I should focus more so on the state's woeful economic, educational and healthcare systems. |
Theprophetess
Regular Poster
Username: Theprophetess
Post Number: 38
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 12:56 pm: |
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Hey you're entitled to your opinion for sure, but all issues affecting blacks are important issues. There is no either/or....deal with all issues as all issues come up. The flag is a insult to ALL black people not just S.C's. It is gutter defiance of whites and the sooner our tax dollars cease being allocated to pay for that damnable flag the better off all will be. |
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