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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 692
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 10:54 pm: | 
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Did anyone see this program. This evening, actually presently, a program on PBS covering minority urban students in New Haven, conn. It is a charter school called Amistad Academy. The improvements were the result of (1)an intense curriculm, (2) student responsibility, and (3) parent responsibility.
This program is essential, for it demonstrates that it is not enough for kids to go to school, but for schools to create more efficient curriculm. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 563
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Yukio:
I didn't see the program but I hear stories like this all the time as though this is going to be some sort of panacea and all the kids are going to be college bound geniuses if only we could impliment these charter schools (which are often run by private companies whose interest in seeing people adopt these programs is financial).
There was just a report on the charter schools somewhere (could have been here in St. Louis) that found they ain't doing the job.
Face it--these schools have the pick of the litter. They don't take slow students, they don't take problem students, they don't take discipline problems.
A corporate exec had a meeting with a bunch of public school teachers once. May have already posted this story. His company, very successful, sold blueberry products. He was reaming the teachers out about how much better they would do if they used corporate methods.
A teacher asked him what he did if he got a load of spoiled blueberries. "Ship 'em back to the growers," he said.
She replied that she could not do that. She had to take all those students, no matter how they came to her, and work with them and do her best.
The inner city schools are screwed up because the inner cities are screwed up. That's the bottom line. Everybody keeps going back to before integration without mentioning that then EVERYBODY was living in the same neighborhood, and you didn't have whole communities made up of retirees, people on assistance, the working poor, and the various street denizens.
How you gonna make a parent responsible when they are in the pen or on dope or dead, or not there? How you gonna make a student responsible when he or she has the lights out at home, or is living in a shelter, or is living in a crack house or hasn't eaten, or to go to school is to take their lives in their hands?
Schools can create all the curriculum they want, what kind of teaching do you think you can get out of teachers that are frightened of their students or can't stand the sight of them?
No easy answers, mate. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 695
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 12:20 pm: |
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chrishayden: There are no easy answers, mate...this is indeed true. And I certainly don't see charter schools as a panacea. I'm not advocation charter schools in general. I was making the point that w/an efficient curriculm there could be improvements....and more importantly, its not just about kids attending school and children misbehaving...teachers are often underequipped and the curriculm ineffective and archaic!
This charter school did work; and these kids were not the "pick of the litter." And, personally, i don't care if these "private companies" are making money if the programs are working...
Part of the problem, i've learned, is that these schools aren't tailoried to the particular problems relevant to the population. A friend of mine who works in a charter school claimed about how these companies are trying to make many of the schools adopt the same curriculm...this will not work...
so it is not a question of charter vs. public or private schools...its about creating a curriculm that is effective....
I've studied w/the lights out and hungry...i used a candle...i used to do homework in front of my door b/c my sister didn't arrive and i didn't have keys...
So, don't confuse this, again, I'm just making the point that there are alternatives and folk have to be creative.... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 898
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 12:31 pm: |
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Chris,
You make several valid points. However, how do you explain that even Black kids from wealthy/educated/healthy 2-parent families STILL score consistently BELOW those of their non-Black peers on most standardized exams?
And you can't just blame the schools because many Black kids from privleged backgrounds attend the same schools as non-Blacks. And puleaze spare me the culturally-biased spiel. Because that just is not a valid excuse to use when you have the monies to access the same caliber of tutors, SAT-prep guides, afterschool study programs, etc. as others.
I DON'T in anyway think that we Blacks are intellectually inferior to anyone. But I do think that we, often, do not work as hard in school as we should, whether or not we have good family and/or social support systems.
And all the "public" vs. "private" vs. "charter" schools talk is really a bunch of vacuous form-over-function babble. There are public schools that run laps around private ones. And some charters are as good as Exetor and as bad as any other neglected/underfunded/dilapadated, rural/urban/suburban school. Like Chris said, the community begets the schools. Show me a great school and, more times than not, I'll show you caring, diligent parents/teachers/neighbors. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 699
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 01:11 pm: |
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abm: right...
among my middle class friends w/children...there are those who leave their childrens'education to the school, and there are those who actually participate in their education...through computer programs, there reading w/their children, etc...
It is interesting how unintellectual, traditionally speaking, many folk in our middle-class, and this is a reason for our middle-class students low scores...its the parents!
Like i said in response to cosby's rhetoric, parent is taught...and even our middle-class parents don't know how to educate their own children...i was educated at home and school...and grew up in the projects in the south bx and spanish harlem... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1103
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 01:22 pm: |
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As a side bar on this subject, the pressure for children to achieve in special programs sometimes creates a monster down the line. When they get to highschool the thing these students show the most ingenuity for is finding clever ways to cheat on exams. New Trier high school, rated as one of the best secondary schools in this country and located in a very upscale suburb of Chicago, did a survey and found that close to 75 percent of honor students admitted to cheating on exams. And, all of the praise lavished on highly-motivated Asian students aside, - observers noted that these students tend to by pass "useless" information in their study regimens. (Probably because so many of them go into scientific fields.) But, as a result, they are not well-rounded individuals. And I am inclined to think that this is a sign of the times. Our society has become very specialized. The day of a liberal education is passe. |
Crystal
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 80
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 02:30 pm: |
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You ask very good questions ABM. Some I’ve been asking myself for the last 3 years because you are describing my son. His father and I were always very involved in his education from the start. PTA members and officers, cub scout leaders, attended EVERY school function, open house, parent-teacher meetings, surprise classroom visits, regulated homework times, getting tutors, communicating with teachers, counselors and administrators on a regular basis and still . . . he got by on the minimum – except for english lit and history classes that he liked. He had a SAT prep class too and I can’t remember his scores but they weren’t good enough. He was in private schools with good reputations until high school and then he was in the school districts magnet school program at a newly built school. Because of all this I was angry with him during most of his senior year in high school [he almost didn’t graduate because he hated his P.E. teacher and wasn’t passing – he got out with a D]. Frustrated doesn’t even begin to describe how I felt.
So now he’s starting his 3rd year at a community college with no clue of what to do with his self. Although in the middle of this time is when his dad got sick and died and he had to drop some classes to help with caregiving. I’m very proud of how he handled all of that. But still . . .
Wow! Where did all this come from? Guess I needed to vent.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 911
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:11 pm: |
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Crystal,
I empathize with what you are going thru. And I wish your son well as he pursues scholastic enlightenment.
But I think the issue transcends both the society's familial and pedagogical apparatuses.
Other sociological factors are contributing to the troubles your son face. For example, I do believe that in many Black families/neighborhoods, the youth do not consider it to be particularly 'kewl' for young Black man to be considered to be especially studious. Even those who are smart and hardworking endure that duplicitous burden of wanting to do well in school, but not do SO well, work so hard that they make all of their homies look dumb. Moreover, I don't think Black females are especially appreciative of intellectual Black men (unless, of course, they have +$1M book/movie deals to back up their egghead status).
But let a brothah be 6' '9 and be able to hit a fadeaway jumpshot (which, by the way, the Olympic Men Basketball squad could use right now), and everybody, the girlies included, crawl all over'em like he crap's gold bricks.
By comparison, in up-n-coming Asian countries like South Korea, where kids attend classes 3 - 4 hours per day longer than Americans and there is no "Summer Vacation", learning is so honored, that people will hold doors open for you if you are considered a good elementary school teacher.
Face it: As an overall society, and particularly within the Black communities, we do not have a real, sincere appreciation for learning. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 700
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:18 pm: |
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cyn: right...in my experience...many of the asians students were not only not well rounded, but they often couldn't speak standard english...in other words, they were often formally illiterate.
crystal: I'm sure many parents, black, white, asian, hispanic, etc.., have experienced, unfortunately, what u have...but remember, you and your husband have been an amazing support system. You have done your best! So while u are frustrated, you are indeed a standard for others to follow.
Also, school is not for everyone...is there a particular trade he is interested in? One of my cousins was great w/computers...he did poorly in everything but computer science and math....english, history, etc....terrible!
Again, my experiences has been with middle class folk like yourself who do their part, but many DON'T...they work too many hours, over consume on extra bs(ironically,they have the same habits that the pop. that cosby referenced), are uninvolved in their childrens' education, and are really a few checks away from poverty. I say this to say, that class doesn't necessary determine parenting skills...
Crystal u are a model for other parents....also, if you're suggesting that your son is discouraged and uninspired, you could have him do community service in a poor community and help the kids w/reading, history, etc...perhaps through seeing those less fortunate work hard, it could encourage him to do similarly, if indeed that is the case...good luck! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 701
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:23 pm: |
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abm: I don't know...I think the study that evinced that blacks kids thought it was "unkewl" to be studious was in the mid-90s, and I really was suspicious of it when it came out...at any rate, i have anecdotes of both cases...anti-intellectualism and intellectualism...it would think the case is, as cynique suggests, about specialization... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 916
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:27 pm: |
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Yukio,
I don't know the dates of any such studies. But assuming what you say is correct, I'll ask you the following: Do you think there is any evidence that Black kids are endeavoring to become MORE intellectual than they did 10 years ago? If so, PLEASE direct me to THAT study. Cuz THAT's a keeper! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1112
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:37 pm: |
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Crystal, there's always the "late-bloomer" phenomenon. Don't give up. Education is never wasted. Once your son finds himself, he'll have a well of knowledge to draw from. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1113
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:45 pm: |
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Yukio, I agree that school/college is not for everyone because every child's brain is not wired to adjust the regimentation of a class room and "misfits" sometimes fall through the educatgional cracks. However, these non-conformists are usually very smart, original thinkers who become survivors. All they need to be are good readers. |
Crystal
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 83
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:52 pm: |
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Thanks for the encouragement everyone and just to be clear, during all this time we’ve been about 1 1/2 checks away from poverty too and live in the bucket-of-blood known as South Central L.A. And we weren’t the only parents doing these things. But as most of you know, the majority of lower-middle class folks in the hood are doing the best they can everyday and their children aren’t causing the problems. It’s just the few that do that get reported on a DAILY basis in the media that gives the neighborhood such a bad rap. I really don’t want to live anyplace else. I’ve tried living with the pale folks and didn’t like it.
As you’ve said Yukio, we did what we could and now it’s on him. Especially since he’ll be 21 in a few weeks [sniff-sniff, what happened to my baby?]. He started community college taking computer classes but has somehow lost interest. He feels that his math skills are not good enough to get him very far there although I’ve told him he doesn’t have to be a computer engineer to do well. right now I'm stressing him talking to a counselor at the college but they've cut the funding at the community college level so much that there's not many counselors left.
Well, the good news is he isn’t a stupid kid, doesn’t run the streets, seems to be keeping a rein on his zipper [let him tell it] and likes to read so I’m thinking he’ll be ok.
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 565
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:54 pm: |
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Crystal:
I have seen this same phenomenon--parents, often from blue collar backgrounds and often the first in their families to go to college have children to whom it does not seem to be a big deal.
I attribute it to different generations--the opening up of these opportunities to us was the opening of things we had only dreamed of. The night of graduation I thought I was on my way to the army when I was notified that I was admitted to the U of I--I would have followed the example of all of my uncles on both sides of my family, several of who did not even graduate from high school.
For one, I think this generation feels it less of a responsibility, less of a requirement that they go to college--they do understand that it is how much money you make or have, not necessarily how you make it. Also, since they are the children of more affluent parents, they don't feel the economic pressures to have to do it.
Also, college is not for everyone. The children of the college educated blacks also feel less pressure to meet people's expectations and want to pursue happiness--we must face it that they, like the children of middle class white people in the 60's, have seen up close that the rat race does not necessarily bring contentment.
And like Cynique says, he can always go back to school later if he wants. A lot of the better students in my classes were older people who were returning to school--they had got all the bs out of their systems and could get down to business.
Also think in terms of how else he could have wound up--dead, in jail, strung out, maimed physically and/or mentally--there are worse things to be than trying to find oneself--at least he still has a self to find. You can congratulate yourselves on bringing him along enough for that. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 921
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:29 pm: |
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I believe in the benefits of formal education as much as most college presidents. But Black people have had to rely too much on a very faulty/biased education system because we have not built many self-supporting systems of commerce/industry. If we had more control of the economic sectors, we could develop systems of employment and wealth building/maintanance that didn't rigidly require that one obtain (often arbitrary/useless) college degrees.
Moreover, we don't faithfully support those few businesses we have. Thus, our businesses fail and our kids must go hat-in-hand to competed in systems that are often grossly prejudice of them.
Conversely...
@ I know a Black guy in Florida who has an 6th grade education who has million's hauling trash.
@ I know another Black guy with an 8th grade education who's made a fortune selling skin/hair products.
@ And I know another brotha who's making a fortune owning/running a computer software company even though he himself has no degree in computer science.
So these relationships have caused me I wonder whether the problem is we lack knowledge or do we fail to make productive use of what little education we’ve received. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 703
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 04:36 pm: |
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cyn: right...thats why they need to go to trade schools/programs, shorter quicker...more hands-on.
abm: naw bruh. I don't know of such a study. I just have a few anecdotes, know the limitation of samplings based on very general questions. And believe, really, that kids are more sophisticated than we think, and they will both affirm the athlete and student.
crystal: U are very welcome...And he will be fine! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1116
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 06:11 pm: |
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Well, Yukio, can you believe all of us are discussing schools and agreeing? LOL Guess that's because education is an area where there are no absolutes. But I don't think anybody would under-estimate the power of motivation. Yet, it's the hardest thing in the world to motivate an unmotivated child. You have to find that one key that will strike a note with him. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 704
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 06:26 pm: |
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cyn: u aint never lie...about school and motivated an unmotivated child...i was the latter, and I just got by...school was boring, and though i passed all of my classes, I had poor writing skills, although I could speak standard english...what I eventually learned was that I didn't know the basics of grammar and punctuation...subj. verb agreement, how to organize sentences, epecially ensuring that pronoun followed the correct antecedent, etc...I fell in love w/reading and words...and since then I've been an advid reader, though I was always a thinker...this is really what the kids need to become critical thinkers...this is really the missing link! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 559
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 06:34 pm: |
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That is so true about critical thinking Yukio, which may be the reason why a number of schools, (even some elementary schools) have begun including critical thinking courses in the regular cirriculum. I think a lot of people are finally realizing that critical thinking is much needed in every area of our lives... |
Crystal
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 06:36 pm: |
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Yukio said: I just got by...school was boring, and though i passed all of my classes, I had poor writing skills, although I could speak standard english...what I eventually learned was that I didn't know the basics of grammar and punctuation...subj. verb agreement, how to organize sentences, epecially ensuring that pronoun followed the correct antecedent, etc...
Jon, is that you? LOL! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1117
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:15 pm: |
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I was never been a scholar either. Only an average student, just gettin by. I flunked out of the University of Illinois after 2 1/2 years because I spent all of my time partyin' and sleepin' and playin' cards. But - I did earn money writing themes for all of those dummys struggling with rheoric classes. When I finally ended up at the Post Office where I scored a high grade on their exam, I had ample opportunity to move up, but I stayed at my comfort level, settling into an easy desk job because I didn't want any responsibility. To this day, I remain lazy and self-indulgent, lounging around only doing what I want to do. But, what I have discovered is that I was learning and I didn't know I was learning. Things were apparently sinking in by osmosis. And this is never more clear to than when I complete a difficult crossword puzzle, or answer just about all of the questions on Jeopardy! I even passed the preliminary test for "Who Wants To
Be A Millionaire" when they gave it here in Chicago. (I was put on their rolls but I have never been called. Probably because I got a little uppity with smug white bitch who interviewed me.) So, what am I saying? Nothing. Except that I've always been an avid reader. |
Crystal
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 86
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:31 pm: |
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Dang Cynique I could have written this:
but I stayed at my comfort level, settling into an easy desk job because I didn't want any responsibility. To this day, I remain lazy and self-indulgent, lounging around only doing what I want to do.
That's why I'm where I am right now. No money but no stress either. How else would I be able to be at work and play with you guys like I have. Although I've overdone it a little this week and will have to pay later. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 705
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:59 pm: |
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Seriously. presently, i'm very conscious about gram & punc. (when I write short stories, essays, i spend excessive, perhaps, amounts of time editing and revising my work/no lambd, i don't do that here, though u may think i need to...lmao), because I know that it is only recent, maybe 5 years, that i've learned to really grasp and appreciate the logic of grammar and punctuation...
Also, regarding critical thinking, I was/am always curious...and I would ask questions...Like Merovingian and the Oracle in Matrix: Reloaded, I was always interested in the "Why," and I was always good at dissecting things..., ie analysis...this is why parents should push their kids to the encyclopedia, dictionaries, etc...when their kids ask them "why"...some parents will say, "Cuz i said so, take ya azz and do what ya told..."lmao!
Ok, thats enough of my auto...
abm: right...i think folk need to go to college, and if they find out its not for them, then they need to find alternative routes...my point, I guess, is that folk need to cultivate whatever skills or genius they have whether it is through college, trade school, or just jumping into whatever industry w/o formal education...
also: what do u mean by "self-supporting systems of commerce/industry" and "systems of employment and wealth building/maintanance"....
As far as wealth building/ maintanance, koreans and west indians practice "rotating credit"...do u mean banks, local businesses, etc chambers of commerce, etc...?
Crystal:...does ya son like to write? If he likes history, would he be interested in being a tour guide in a museum, he could be a researcher, editor, etc...w/ a little research and creativity he could use his love for reading, history, and english...a friend of a friend works for a marketing agency w/ a ba in english and makes aaaalotttt of money doing research... |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 186
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 07:01 am: |
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I like cheese. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 566
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:20 pm: |
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Yukio:
School is fine if they want to acquire a degree or some sort of skill, especially if it is licensed.
Face it, school teaches you nothing. If school taught you, why would you have to learn how to do almost any job you supposedly have a degree to do on the job?
School is a bottleneck, used to weed people out. The business of America is business. A young black man or woman who sought to learn business would do well apprenticing themselves or hiring themselves out with some other person, black or white, who ran a business and was open about showing them how it worked.
The small grocery stores in my neighborhood were run by Jews. When I'd go in there, they'd have their kids in there working, waiting on people behind the cash register.
Those kids were learning something you can't learn in any school--how to run a business. I see the Asian family that owns the chop suey joint around the corner doing the same thing.
Some of those Jewish kids have businesses of their own today. They have had a big head start over somebody coming out of a school in their twenties decided to start one. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1119
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:27 pm: |
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Thanks, Carey, I needed that. I know people get tired of me boring them with the details of my not so inspiring life. LOL
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1120
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:32 pm: |
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Good points, Chris. ("When you're good, you're very, very good. But when you're bad, you're horrid.") heh-heh. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 927
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:40 pm: |
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Chris,
I think you are being a wee-bit cynical about schools.
I agree few (if any) academic schools fully provides one with what one needs to earn a living. But such an education can - by exposing the mind to countless concepts, theories, people, places and things - provide one with much of the foundational wherewithal to consider and embark upon innumerable endeavors that one otherwise might never have the opportunity/inclination to engage.
Cynique,
Oh come now, My Love. I could enjoy your "boring [me] with the details of [your] not so inspiring life" all the live-long day.
Plus, I heard (from Crystal, or was it A_womon?) that you have a really cute butt.  |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 706
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:42 pm: |
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chris, no disagreement here...
I already wrote:
"my point, I guess, is that folk need to cultivate whatever skills or genius they have whether it is ... or just jumping into whatever industry w/o formal education..."
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 928
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:43 pm: |
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Yukio,
I agree S0ME kids do, to SOME degree, acknowledge academic excellence...SOMEtimes. But their appreciation for such utterly pales in comparison to that of their adulation for athletic prowess. And until this disparity diminishes, we will continue to breed legions of Blacks living fallacious and vacuous "Hoop Dreams". |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 707
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:58 pm: |
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well...here's the situation about education, of any kind....it has to be taught! Kids learn more about basketball through playing, competition, than they do about reading or writing...one is considered a task and the other a sport/leisure. So, if parents were able to make learning fun...kids would be as enthused as they are about sports...similarly, if kids excel in academics, as they do in sports, it will build their self-esteem to seek more education...again, this must be learned...in the charter school, amistad academy, the kids enjoyed reading and learned the significance of their education, and so it also became attractive and respectable... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 930
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:08 pm: |
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Yukio,
Preface: I don't intend to 'quarrel'...just expand/deepen/clarify the dialog a bit. K?
I agree that schools/students would benefit from applying fresher, more interesting teaching methods. But I have never bought the notion that teaching Algebra should be analogous to teaching a jumpshot. Those are very different types of skills that require different kinds of training. Moreover, it has been my observation, that kids who do well in their studies don’t mind the grind that it takes to succeed, provided they are shielded from a lot of the self-defeating peer pressure they are often haplessly made to endure.
Thus, I’ll repeat, if we all lauded academic excellence as much as athletic ability (or to exaggerate the point: If the National Spelling Bee had the same Nielsen Ratings as the NBA Final), our kids would work harder and do better in school. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 931
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:19 pm: |
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Yukio,
And I completely concur with your "...the significance of their education, and so it also became attractive and respectable..." The only problem with that is most of us will be in the school systems for 12 years before we get to observe even an inkling of what that really means. And if you grow up impoverished and isolated from the myriad wonders outside of dah Bronx, you receive even fewer opportunites to behold why knowing the Pythagorean Theory is so vitally important.
Again, that is why we must that is but one of the countless reasons why Blacks must grow/develop businesses in ALL economic arenas. Because when we can then hire our 15 years olds to ‘apply’ what they are studying in school in a way that suits their immediate interests, we will become amazed by how academically motivated our youth can be. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 932
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 02:21 pm: |
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I apologize.
In my zeal to lecture (okay, 'babble'), I failed to address your queries below:
"...what do u mean by "self-supporting systems of commerce/industry" and "systems of employment and wealth building/maintanance"....As far as wealth building/ maintanance, koreans and west indians practice "rotating credit"...do u mean banks, local businesses, etc chambers of commerce, etc...?"
My views are as follows:
I mean we must materially create, acquire, own, control, bequest, gift, sell/buy/trade in ALL of the world's major sectors of industry/commerce, especially where/when we Black consume and expend our money.
Here is an example of what I mean (Sorry Cynique. This is one of my "verbose" moments. So please indulge me, Mon Cheri. K?<wink!>).
In the late '80's, the then Prime Minister of Japan arrogantly made a series of disparaging remarks about Black/Hispanics being a drain/burden on America. Now, this was during the time when Japan's per capita GNP and economic productivity were the best on Earth (before their economy imploded in the early 90's). Therefore, although his comments were publicly rebutted, in private, many concurred with him. After all, who would know better than the creators of economic powerhouses such as Sony, Toyota, Honda and Subaru why American business lagged behind.
Now, of course, a lot of Black foks were pissed. But when Rev. Jesse Jackson was asked his opinion of the PMJ slights, he unexpectedly said the following (I’m paraphrasing.): The most interesting thing about what the PMJ said is that a billion Black people together throughout the world can't make 'one' Toyota.
That statement continues to stick in my craw because it is, alas, it so profoundly true.
All of these Toyota's, Honda's, Lexus', that we Black foks desperately scramble to pay Billions for and we receive virtually NO return on that investment. Consider this: The Camry is the most popular Japanese-made car sold in the US. And, believe it or not, Black people proportionately buy/own more Camay’s than almost any other Americans. Yet virtually NONE that Mt. Everest of 'Benjamins' flows back to us, save a few blue-collar, fewer (mostly token) white-collar gigs and justa handful of dealerships (and Rev. Jesse Jackson has had to extort some of those out of Toyota). The lionshare of that money is used to send the children of Japanese (and White American) executives to Harvard (not Black ones) to further perpetuate the socio-economic dominance of non-Blacks.
So, going back to the original topic here, I say the following:
I wish that when we talk, complain and ponder issues of education, we would, to be fair/honest, put what we discuss/desire within the context of how we ALL are living, what we are doing, buying, creating, investing, etc. Because I think one of the biggest reasons why our kids often underperform in school is we adults can provide them with scant direct (economic) incentive to believe that all of the reading, writing and math will amount to anything of benefit...at least of which to them. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 02:49 pm: |
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True, true, Abm. You know what they say: The Japanese will make it, The Jews will sell it, and the "niggas" will buy it. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 933
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 03:14 pm: |
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Cynique,
....and if we lack the dough, we'll steal it or, in the case of cars, jack it.
HEHE!
Thanks. We can always count on you to succinctly contribute the 'finer point' to any discussion. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 934
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:02 pm: |
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Yeah, I'm speedballing. But...
It is unfair of us to expect of our children to achieve in school what we ourselves didn’t or wouldn’t even remotely attempt to do.
I think it hypocritical that a parent who rarely if ever reads will decry their child's academic failure. If your child wants to be a Chemist the least your @$$ could do is acquaint herself with the basic of the Scientific Method.
But what is often the case with Black kids, you have parents were themselves academic laggards. So they now not-so-subtlety attempt to compel their kids to achieve to make up for what they themselves failed to do. This phenomenon is similar to that of a sports-obsessed father badgering his son to be a baseball star because he himself never learned to hit a curve ball.
And we parents often unfairly try to wield a form of "look how hard I struggle to feed you" spiel over our kids to try to coerce our children into doing better, which usually results only in our kids children resenting both us and school. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1130
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:55 pm: |
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Yes, Abm. I know. I was just waiting for someone to question how I could chide negligent parents when my history is less than exemplary when it comes to education. But the truth of the matter is, is that my folks didn't have great parenting skills. I was a victim of their benign neglect. And, not surprising, I ended up raising my kids pretty much the same way. But, - they all love to read and are all trivia buffs and all have a good set of values. What can I say? One of them even gave me a big poster of Aragorn for my birthday. We're all crazy. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 708
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:58 pm: |
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abm: the kids in the amistad academy hadn't reached high school; they appreciated the subjects as they excel...at the end of the day, kids like to learn, whether it is a sport, bad habit, or knowledge.
right: Jesse Jackson said that the final obstacle of "liberation" would be economic power...now, of course, black people dont even consider themselves a part of a community to even do something like this...those w/skills are employees rather than employers...also, i'm not really a believer in black capitalism...there really is no guarantee that black folk will give back...the way other groups do...
black folk are so bamboozled that they embrace an American identity(allegedly colorless) rather than an african american identity, the latter would suggest membership to an ethnic group and therefore interested in the welfare such group...the former is just an individual whose affliation is based on other shared elements...
I'm not gonna wait for blacks develop economic systems...and hope folk give back....so I think those who are interested and of the black community(rather than those who are phenotypically black), need to equip themselves economically, socially, and politically, so that if folk can develop a socalled black economy there will be a foundation there....ironically, blacks are discriminated as a group, but don't want to organize as a group....bamboozled! |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 03:59 pm: |
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as an educator, i just gotta jump in here. i'm new on the block, and i'm sending up much love for this fruitful and well-supported discussion.
i have been teaching for 10 years, 5 in high school, and 5 in college. i teach english. and i gotta say that MOST of my students DON'T SPEAK IT. but i digress. the closing the gap issue is the source of my dissertation and has recently become a national initiative. the research on this subject is vast, and there are as many researchers as there are theories. the problem seems to be that there are several factors that contribute to the achievement gap, and there are no pat answers. claude steel discusses the idea of stereotype threat and negative self-fulfilling prophecies. john ogbu, who died recently, discussed the idea of motivation and the fear of "acting white." katie haycock discusses the need for seasoned, veteran teachers and a progressive and engaging curriculum. many have written about the socio-economic issues that impact upon education. yet, there are instances that belie all of these theories:
some kids from abject poverty and neglect achieve really well.
some kids from affluent communities with 2 parent house holds don't achieve well
some kids are afraid of being stigmatized by acting white and doing well academically, but some seem to disregard this whole idea and do well inspite of their fear.
what i have found, in working with a predominately white faculty, is that we have MANY obstacles to overcome. we need AF-AM men in the classrooms. we need the support of community and parents. we need to make sure that our curriuclum is challenging, engaging and realistic.
mainly, though, we see this achievement gap happening across the board in every single discipline. i want parents and teachers to remember, then, that the common denominator here is LANGUAGE. our educational system is written in standard american english. to keep us from assimilating, we were never taught the language. and even if our parents were affluent, we can look back or sideways not too far and see where our other kin folk were not. because language is political, our dialect (which has a completely valid set of grammar), is not validated. and since our students don't always know or hear standard american english at home, they have a hidden curriculum in school-- deciphering not just the assignments but also the language used to communicate them.
as black folks, we have gotta be aware of all of the factors that contribute to this gap and be willing to work with the community and teachers as well as our children to combat it on every level.
phew! glad to get this off my chest. thanks for humoring me! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 576
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 04:46 pm: |
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...our dialect (which has a completely valid set of grammar), is not validated. and since our students don't always know or hear standard american english at home, they have a hidden curriculum in school-- deciphering not just the assignments but also the language used to communicate them.
Thank you for saying this Bluefreezy! I hope that you will be around for a long while!! A lot of older black folk do not believe in the "hidden agenda" of using language to sabotage tests,exams, and the SAT's and ACT's. Maybe some will be better able to hear this coming from and english teacher/professor.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 938
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 06:33 pm: |
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Bluefreezy,
First: Welcome! I like your moniker!
I agree there are MANY factors that cause the disparity in academic performance. And you provide fine synopses of all of them. But while I think there is something to your argument about "LANGUAGE" being a factor, I wonder how this can be a primary reasons for our struggles.
We African Americans all are taught and we learn and speak English from our birth. And, although there are some differences between "standard" and "Black" English, most are minor. A diligent/mindful person can easily bridge the gap between "the" and "duh".
Also, if "LANGUAGE" is the central issue, why is it that non-Americans, naturalized Americans and/or children born/raised by non-English speaking people are often among the nation's very finest students? Why should a first generation Korean American have a better command of "standard" English than one whose ancestry has resided here for centuries?
Respectfully, I think this issue of what brand of English we use is a conveniently fallacious argument used to rationalize our unwillingness to learn.
A_womon,
Who dat afraid of the big-bad SAT? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 578
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:01 pm: |
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This is exactly what I am speaking of abm. some of your generation assumes far too much, I don't have time to go into this now, but when koreans and asians come to this country, first generation or no, whose culture do they assimilate? Certainly NOT african american, so then why would they suffer any of the cultural duplicitous configurations of the English language, when white is what all of those type seek to comform to? Their ways their speaking their LANGUAGE ect..
And whether you acknowledge it or not, it has long been proved that rich and elite have not always passed the sat's with flying colors because they study hard, besides obvious advantages (your disbelief does not make those advantages any less valid by the way) some actually have had access to the questions before the sat's are given!
Now, this is NOT blaming white people for everything, but I would like to know why it is so difficult for you and those who think like you to accept that SOME things in this world are skewed to benefit white people and this COULD be one of those things. That in no way means that one should not attempt to overcome these obstacles and excel, but neither should we pretend that these type things don't go on.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1141
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:45 pm: |
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Why is it so difficult for you to understand, A-womon, that white folks don't give a damn about all of these intricate problems afflicting black language. They run the country, and they are not going to do a whole lot of adjusting in order to accomodate their minority populations. Yes, white people are just as flawed as anyone else. But they don't have to answer to anyone because they are the ones in power. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 579
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:47 pm: |
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My oH my! Cyn you just agreed with me!! You make my point perfectly! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1142
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:51 pm: |
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Well, act like it, a-womon, and stop fretting about the need for black people to adapt to standard English. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 941
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:58 pm: |
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A_womon,
Well, at the risk of oversimplying the issue, I'll ask this question: Why can't we simply speak 'our' English and 'theirs'? If the average European can functionally speak 3 languages, why can't Blacks speak 2 forms of essentially the same language?
Do you have friends who are first, second generation Americans? If so, you would understand/appreciate that they too struggle with issues of assimilating to the American (White) culture while maintaining some fidelity to their family's native culture/language. We are not wholly unique in that regard. Yes our troubles differ from theirs, but that don't mean they are any less valid and troublesome.
Much of this really isn't about language and culture. Much of it is a lot of sophistry generated to disguise the fact that some of us view speaking "standard" English as some indication of our selling-out to dah man (which is bizarre to me because if we really wanted to have our own language, we should create one entirely different/distinct from that which we decry).
I agree standardized exams don't tell one's ENTIRE education story. But they sure as heck tell a part of it. Also, the SAT does offer one a (albeit flawed) chance to see how they match up against students from around the country that any competitive person should relish. And irregularities/fraud are no more a legitimate reason to discard the SAT than is instances of illegal insider trading reason to discontinue the New York Stock exchange.
Frankly, a great SAT score can do as much to balance the scales in the favor a young/poor Black person's as almost anything they'll ever do.
Lastly, have you READ many of my prior posts? Because if you have, why would you direct the last paragraph to me? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 580
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 08:01 pm: |
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I hear you Cyn, I really do BUT
it's hard for me to stop fretting when black kids still struggle to make the grade, based on these out-dated standards... |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 581
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 08:37 pm: |
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ABM,
In trying not to oversimplify the issue you somehow managed to do just that. I can't explain something to you that you will never get any better than I have just tried to. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 943
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 08:43 pm: |
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A_womon,
Then what do WE do?
Everyone wants to complain about everything that's wrong, but where are the answers, where are the plans, the organization? As I "oversimply", I try to offer at least part of the solution to the problem.
What do you offer? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 582
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 08:50 pm: |
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Okay I must've missed your solution cuz even after going back and reading again, I see no solutions offered by you, just discussion as I am doing. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 944
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 09:10 pm: |
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A_womon,
LEARN TO SPEAK STANDARD ENGLISH!
It's that simple. Hey. We aren't talking about learning some ancient dialect of Klingon or something. We are talking about English...A language that we are ALREADY speaking (for Christ Sake).
As I said before, a lot of this isn't about having a WAY to do something. It's about having the WILL to do it.
I'm sorry, but you will NEVER convince me that Black kids can't speak/write English in any way/fashion/degree as anyone else. But we've gottah WANT to.
I don't wanna hear all of the slavery/racism spiel because there are A LOT of things Black foks have learned/unlearned over the centuries, not the least of which were how to read, write and count effectively. And many of us have had to do those things in places/situations that were a dang-sight more tumultuous than what most of us face now.
I don't place any special value of one dialect of English over another. To me, Ebonics is as valid a derivation of English as that which is spoken by Queen Elizabeth. But world is a game, and "standard" English is one of the tools one needs to effectively play it.
Now, we can either opt-out of playing the game. Or play it to win. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 712
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 11:43 pm: |
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abm: there is a huge difference between "standard english" and "black english." It is more than spelling--it is syntax, inflection, and meaning...
Nevertheless, you are right. It is not about not being able to because we can...and have. I see no reason why we can't be bilingual....
Language is really about class(we aren't taught standard english...it is forced down our throats)...many poor folk don't have, but the industrious will learn. Poor folk have to be bilingual...if u travel to other countries were there are several socalled "official" languages which are often european, and the various dialects and languages, such as Senegal for example, folk speak the "main" language as well as their own! Why do u think Africans speak so many languages...in their travels for trade, school, trade, they learn language to "play the game."
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 584
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 01:49 am: |
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LEARN STANDARD ENGLISH,
This only begins to touch the problem, as I said, trying to explain to someone who refuses to acknowledge that the problem exists, is akin to trying to explain to Cosby, why what he said was improper.
I'll give an example and then Im done because,as I said before there is no use wasting time trying to explain something you will NEVER get. This is a simplistic answer, but I think it sufficiently demonstrates what I mean.
In elementary school, if an inner city child takes a standardized test that has this question on it, how do you think they will answer
leaf is to shrubbery as grass is to:
garden lawn
tree reed
Now, this is not all inclusive, but there are black children who would never guess "lawn" because most kids when they are at home are told to go mow the grass, not the lawn, and shrubbery would commonly be referred to as "bush(es)" They may recieve good grades in STANDARD english, but cirriculum often dictates which words are to be taught and is not necessarily inclusive of every word in the language. In other words, because a child understands and is taught standard english, does not mean that standardized tests will not be slanted toward words that are commonly used by white people. This is one reason why simplistic answers like "learn standard english" do not properly address the issue.
When teaching black kids, do you think the teachers teach "hooked on ebonics?" or do you think they are teaching standard english? The answer to this question should further demonstrate that the problem is larger than what you suggest. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 714
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:17 am: |
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a_womon: It is more than learnin standard english....all inner cities aren't the same... mine wouldn't have any answers...cuz we don't mow nuffin! We'd pick "C"! ...lmao! It's culture!
ABM and A_Womon: Sees you 2 are talking about different, though related, points!
ABM addressed standardized english tests....he says, "I agree standardized exams don't tell one's ENTIRE education story."
A_Womon is talking about language, but more importantly cultural differences, that have to do with both language and environment....
ABM wrote: But I have never bought the notion that teaching Algebra should be analogous to teaching a jumpshot.
Clarification: I wasn't make the point that they are analogous. Instead, I was making that knowledge--basketball and algebra--and values must be taught...In other words, I was emphasizing the need for training, and how confidence is built through success in education...
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 945
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 12:34 pm: |
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Yukio,
I agree there are some differences in English dialects. But I think you would agree that it is a much shorter trip from Ebonics to Standard English than it is from Korean and Standard English.
I don’t think A_womon are arguing different issues. Rather, I would say let’s master the basics of Standard English so that bridging the cultural differences that A_womon cite could be more easily achieved. And I agree that will require effort and time. But, again, I think it is the WILL to achieve such is where we are most lacking.
A_womon,
I never said learning Standard English (SE) was a panacea for all of our academic ills. But many of them sure as heck start there. How can we effectively learn in this Western society if we refuse to master the language in which all school/business/research is conducted? Or simply, if you have no command of SE, you likely won’t ever be able to make the distinctions between a "lawn", "shrubbery" or "grass".
So, I ask you...again...what do we do: Not learn to speak/write SE? Because even if we accept the enormity of the problem you cite (which I don’t) we will STILL be faced with the same problems that ensue from our failure/reluctance to perform that task.
There are some cultural differences that affect our ability to learn certain concepts. Yes, for several reasons, the kid who grew up in Chicago’s Cabrini Green will likely have a tuffer time mastering Chaucer than will a kid who ‘summers’ in the Hamptons. But these differences are not insurmountable. Blacks have in myriad trying circumstances proven amazingly capable of getting/doing what whatever we sincerely want to get/do.
I’ll agree there are MANY obstacles that we face. And, like you, I believe the Cosby’s of the world are too apt to skirt acknowledging and handling some of them. But I don’t consider learning SE to be even remotely near our most troublesome impediments. We can learn how to distinguish "doze" from "those".
PS: And what happens when we apply for a job that requires we know what a "lawn" is? Should we tell our employer, "Sorry, this biased culture denied me the opportunity know what that is? Is a "lawn" anything like "grass"? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 716
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 02:17 pm: |
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abm: right...korean is further from standard english than socalled black english.
Considering your "P.S." question, I say that we, like non-standard english, non-culturally middle-class American, learn on the job. I was talkin to a white colleague, and ignorantly she assumed that since I am "American" I had the similar experiences to her...she was shocked, this is 2004, that blacks had their own cultural experiences....anyways, this is not to say that we are not "American," but to say that we are indeed different, at least many of us, and those differences needed to be accounted for...this is why, for example, folk can't be treated equally...but that is another story! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 717
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 09:56 pm: |
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abm: i don't think u're getting what A_womon is saying...Inner city schools teach "standard" english, but it is inferior/limited to the requirements that are taught at the suburban schools, which are usually parallel or even above what is required on the state examinations.... |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:49 pm: |
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a_woman: i feel you on this one. gotta jump in once more.
learning standard english was a PRIVILEDGE that many of us were not given until very recently. and even still it takes place in academia, mainly, not in our home lives.
if a korean or other esol student comes to school, they can take international sections of courses and have the curriculum and staff that they need to help them learn the content of their classes in spite of their language barrier. many of these students have learned english since they first started school. but they did't speak it at home or hear it in their home life, so they struggle with it in classes. and there is no stigma attached. we don't assume that they are unintelligent and incapable. and they are not expected to be fluent in english in the matter of 14 weeks just because they are exposed to it at school. not the case with us.
when an african -american kid doesn't speak standard english, there is a huge stigma attached. they think that if we don't speak standard english that we are less intelligent.
with our language (and i say language rather than dialect-- dialect has to do only with vocabulary and pronunciation; language includes grammar and structure) all of these other factors come into play:
stereotypes like blacks don't speak well
they're uneducated, they're poor
they haven't bothered to "learn standard english,"
they must be unmotivated and lazy
they probably won't do very well
and researchers have determined that these factors contribute to the achievement gap.
can't keep writing about this because the factors are too embroiled and, therefore, maddening. y'all have some really thoughtful ideas that imma be thinking about for a while! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 597
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 06:44 am: |
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AMEN BLue!
And furthermore, when you say that a child struggles with the biases in learning "Standard English" and the child is black, the responses you get are almost always things like, "how hard can it be to learn to say THESE instead of D'ese and other similar remarks that do nothing to acknowledge the problems that go WAY beyond the scope of enunciation or syntax!
And I feel your frustration on the convoluted nature of this problem as well. But as an educator, do you have any insight as to what an average citizen can do to affect real change in this system that consistently and continually affects our children on a conscious as well as subconscious level? Where do those of us who know that this is a real problem begin to help? The problem seems so insurmountable at times based on the very scenario that you have outlined above, and some of our own parents subscribe to the "they aren't motivated to learn standard english so they must be lazy" crap when you try to make them aware of this problem. I think that this surprises me more than anything!!! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 422
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 08:05 am: |
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Once again, A-woman, I am totally astounded by your post. You will go on for weeks with your craziness and we think, "Oh she is soooo young, she doesn't know any better." And then you come on with these truly well constructed ideas and they are so well thought out and delivered in a manner that makes us think a much older person is posting after all. |
Bleekindigo
Veteran Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 75
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 08:56 am: |
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A-Woman:
The wonder in your woman is showing gurl! I like reading your mind in motion this way!!! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 424
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:04 am: |
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Bleek, if she is twenty-three, then she's been here before! |
Bleekindigo
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 76
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:11 am: |
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Lamb, you ain't neva lied! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 599
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:28 am: |
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awwwwwwwwww yall makin me blush...
Thanks!
But these are issues that I struggled with as well |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 959
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:45 am: |
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I could go on and on here...
Engard!
Volley!
Touché!
Thrust!
Pare!
Bravo! You all have done a thorough job of rationalizing why our kids can't read/write in Standard English and why they fail in school. I don't agree with most of it. But I'll accept them to be worthy (if not flawed) offerings.
So I'll ask you ALL what I asked A_womon (several times) that I have yet to get an answer to: WHAT DO WE DO? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1163
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
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Maybe black schools should teach Standard English as a second language. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 965
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 01:28 pm: |
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Cynique,
I think that's what they tried to do a few years ago in Oakland by introducing Ebonics into the classroom. But I think that project fell thru due to pedagogical and political haggling. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 600
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 01:32 pm: |
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Lambd:
wait a second, what do you mean "You will go on for weeks with your craziness and we think, "Oh she is soooo young, she doesn't know any better"
I aint no crazier than the rest of yall! ESPECIALLY YOU MR SIR!!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1165
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 02:02 pm: |
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No, Abm. I meant teaching Standard English the way they would teach a foreign language class such as Spanish or French. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 967
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 02:39 pm: |
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Cynique,
Well, I think we could probably argue that that is what is informally being done in many schools. I mentioned the Ebonics curriculum because, from what little I gleaned from it, it appeared to attempt to provide a more structured/formalize method of accomplishing what you proffer. Because in order to teach a second or foreign language, it must be done via the bridge of a primary language. I think the Oakland administrators/teachers had considered using some form of Ebonics to be such a bridge. |
Crystal
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:36 pm: |
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ABM: I think the Oakland administrators were trying to tap into the pot of money set aside for english-as-second-language classes. At the time they didn't have as many spanish language students as in So. and Central Cal. That's probably changed by now though. Not that using Ebonics as you suggest doesn't have it's merits but I think it was mainly for the money. Which I'm not sure if they ever got or not. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 719
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:08 pm: |
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I liked what the amistad academy did, which was to raise the standards of math, english, etc to the state requirements..Both parents and students signed a contract of responsibility. For example, parents signed their children home work...and if something wasn't done...parents and student were responsible. Also, the school tested students every six weeks to determine improvements, problem areas, etc...and then alter the class to the needs of the students. Every 6months, they took a state exam, so that by the time students took the state example, they were already prepared and familar w/test taking....Also, students were required to read at home. Also, the students classes ended at 5:15 instead of 3pm....
In general, I think all parties need to be more responsible...parents, children, and the schools.... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 973
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:13 pm: |
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Crystal,
Thanks for the additional insight. It always comes down to the dollars, doesn’t it?
But, if what they were trying to do helped to improve education, they should still have been given an opportunity. After all, dumber ideas than that have been funded.
Can someone say "Iraq"? |
Bleekindigo
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 77
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:55 pm: |
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I agree with Cynique. Teach Standard English as a second lanquage.
Abm, do you think that there is a route other than "via the bridge?" I'm trying to think and I cannot really come up with anything except maybe teachers being more tuned in to the language of the children and making the necessary corrections relentlessly.
Then, that implies that the teacher understands the language of the child. I don't know-
My boyfriend and I do that even now. If I say something that is non-standard english while the two of us are speaking seriously of something, he corrects me and vice versa and that consistency keeps me sharp most times.
I was one of those children and so, "Ion't know where dey at" and "whatchu want" flow freely when i'm speaking amongst my folks--I just try to keep it separate from professional settings or inappropriate settings period. And my God! Maybe that adds to the problem! Maybe I should speak standard english always? No, I enjoy my grandmother's "lawd willin' da crik don't rise" and my girlfriends--"I know das right gurl"!!
What to do? What to do? siiiiiiigh.
Moving on:
The parents could be implicated, but i'm sure if the children are speaking in this manner, then the parents probably are too.
|
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 977
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 05:11 pm: |
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Yukio,
Sounds like you have some interesting ideas for a magazine. I whether there is a mass market for such. But I hope you will try to get something going.
I think most men will pick up a magazine if they think it includes some nice looking chicks. And they will by it if it includes A LOT of nice looking chicks, gadgets, etc. But when you start delving in to issue about the DWB, criminal justice system, why your woman makes more $ than you do, etc. most times we just toss dat stuff back unto the newstand shelf.
See, we are already, on a daily basis, LIVING that crap, and often not too well with little reason/hope that things will improve.
And unlike women - save you academic types - men typically don't like to dwell/stew/confront in their troubles. That is part of the reason we get sick/die before women do. Thus, I feel, the only way a magazine featuring those kinds of issues can be effectively marketed is if it is done with a high degree of humor and irreverence...and a lot of 1/2 naikid women. HEHE! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 979
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 05:36 pm: |
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Bleekindigo,
Well, we all learn ANY language or dialect, some communication must occur, be it oral/symbol/writing. And we associated/learn/write about such via the manner of discourse that is most familar to us; be it Ebonics, Standard English, French, etc. Thus, perhaps we are in part struggling to teach/learn English because we fail to provide and/or cross such 'bridges'.
Again, I think an Ebonic curriculum could prove meritious if it is clearly defined and is strickly enforced that the primary objective is learn Standard English, not to validate Ebonics. Because I don't discount our children face unique hurdles to learning. I just question whether reinforcing what doesn't work in the world outside of the neighbor suits their long-term best interests.
My wife and I often correct each other's English. We do that mostly as a type of game as we are both fairly literate people and have little problem aping the "Queen's English" when appropiate. The one who REAL checks us all is my nine year old (lil' wunderkin geek ). |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 721
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 05:52 pm: |
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"Ah didn't pass the bar but I know a lil bit...nuff to you wont illegally search my sh*t"
|
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 722
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 05:58 pm: |
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abm: ironically, u are so passionate about black kids being able to perform like whites with a lil WILL, but that passion wanes when we're talkin bout grown men who are often responsible for partially or wholly raising these black kids...I do think there is a market for men interested in knowledge: fatherhood, building businesses, families, and wealth; criminal justice, politics, etc...i don't think thats limited to socalled "academic types"...i know bus drivers, postal workers, and other blue collar workers intellectually "doin da damn thing"! |
Bleekindigo
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 78
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 06:01 pm: |
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Jay-z. Is that really what he said Yukio?!?!? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 723
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 06:32 pm: |
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yeap...i'm sure S.Carter learned this from the hood...but i doubt if many of these younger brothas know their rights...(99 Problems)
Did anyone see that episode of Soulfood when Ahmad was wrongfully arrested and then harassed by the police for stealing? Good episode...I attended jr. h.s and h.s. w/one of the cats who was convicted, now released, for raping the white women in cental park!
Consider, the new black population...these young poor africans who are assimilating to african american and general US culture...they live in the tenements and projects, now...they are not the middle and upper class africans most are used to...where do they learn about this stuff? Look at what happened to amadou diallo... |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 102
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 07:00 pm: |
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My feelings on the standard English thing....
Standard English is the language of America, period. I don't care if the person at hand is a black kid from the projects, or a white hill billy kid from the mountains, ALL need to speak standard English. Successful survival in this country depends on it. Our country, decade by decade, has continued to lower it's standard of living (both morally and intellectually) by kissing the a$$es of people who refuse to assimiliate. If any American were to go to any other country in the world, if we didn't speak the standard language, we would be washing dishes, scrubbing floors and never dealing with the general public, regardless of the place of business. America needs to get with it!
And yes, I feel parents need to start giving a da*n about the children they bring into the world and in what manner they teach them! This issue transcends race!
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 724
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 07:41 pm: |
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moonsigns: Let me preface this first. This is nothing personal...I just disagree with you. And, I'm speaking in general...I don't have stats, so please don't assume that I'm making absolute statements.
With that said:
I agree that all need to learn standard english. NOt because, by the by, that "Our country, decade by decade, has continued to lower it's standard of living (both morally and intellectually) by kissing the a$$es of people who refuse to assimiliate." Hmmmm....I don't believe in assimilation...that is cultural suicide! Acculturation, yes.
Your point about immigrants is a bit overstated. Immigrants wash dishes, scrub floors, etc.. because they're immigrants not solely because they can't speak english or lacks skills...an Irish American friend of mine who went to school in Ireland, washed dishes and scubbed floors because she was a immigrant...and obviously, immigrant labor is cheaper...this is basic american history from slaves from 17th century to the mid. 19th, the Irish in the 1840s, Italians, Jewish, and Asians in the 1890s and hispanics throughout the late nineteenth, 20th, and 21st century...and as is the case now, the US had always enabled capitalist to use immigrant labor against its citizens...besides the jingoism and nativism during the US wars..
Also, what standards are you talking about? Remember, public education is a mid-twentieth century phenomena...nationally speaking...consider that the GI BIll enabled white working class vets. to enter college, before...it was the domain of the middling and upper classes...forget about black vets...and poor whites who didn't participate in the war...the white industrial class received good wages in factories...black unionized workers received lower wages and usually married black women worked to suppliment the black family income...white wives of industrial working didn't have to work. Instead, they were housewives Also, the deindustrialization process actually started in the 40s...and was mostly complete in the 80s, as well as the disempowerment of the labor movement...these folk and their children still don't speak standard english...
More likely, maybe 40% of Americans are functionally illiterate...and maybe 20% are plain ol' illiterate
So what standards, exactly, are you talking about? |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 103
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 09:17 pm: |
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Obviously, there was a high enough standard of communication that was established that has enabled America to become one of the most powerful and richest countries in the world. This standard is one that was spoken and unspoken. It is a standard of expectation --that people will be unified in language in order to make the country flourish. It is an expectation that makes people want to come here and live --this is a standard that created opportunity, and everyone wants an opportunity. There is nothing wrong with immigration (I'm that great-grandchild of immigrants), however, what is wrong is that nowadays we don't force people to assimiliate to our language, which is A part of our culture --an integral part at that. Immigrants don't have to lose their native culture/tongue in order to assimilate into American life either. My family has held onto to it's native language, as well as it's culture. That is what is great about America --we can have the best of both worlds, and have. My grandparents were given no choice (by their parents) but to learn standard English. I feel that American born children are no exception. All this talk of ebonics is bs. This form of slang has just been given a name. Just as I would expect a "surfer dude" to keep his slang at the door when he comes to work, I expect any other form of slang to be dealt with in the same manner (especially in a professional setting).
It is pointless and ridiculous to think that anyone, American born or not, should not be presented with the expectation that they speak English in order to successfully survive here. Effective communication is fundamental for business dealings and personal dealings. If we have no standard, we can't, and won't, achieve anything of great success. This is where America is now. We kiss a$$es and want to be so liberal and PC. America is paying a heavy price for enabling such mentalities.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 606
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 09:26 pm: |
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This is just the kind of IGNORANT and BACKWARD thinking that keeps the very real problems that have been mentioned before in this thread IN PLACE and part of the reason why it has persisted and mutated like a roach that spawns and spreads it's diseases unwittingly and no matter how many times you step on them and squash them they still continue to breed.... And this thinking will continue to mutate and permeate AMERICA until someone comes up with a formula to exterminate it once and for all!!! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 104
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 09:31 pm: |
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A_Womon,
The same can be said of your mentality/opinion as well.
|
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 607
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 09:40 pm: |
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Here's the thing that you don't want to face, your daughters are going to be considered black, so the very barriers and walls that you refuse to address are ones that one day may snare YOUR offspring, or your grandchildren. So you need to take a good hard look at how what you say will ultimately affect those closest to you... |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 608
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 09:45 pm: |
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And you might want to consider that the problems that face black children that have to navigate through this convoluted system are REAL and supersede any white person's opinion, mentatlity, or biased views on what needs to be done about it.
This is why I am not interested in your opinion on African American affairs--you don't now nor will you EVER get it. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 609
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:35 pm: |
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By the way MOONSIGNS,
You might want to print your little rant up and mail it to The Commander in Chief of this literate prosperous AMERICA you write about, since HE has yet to master STANDARD ENGLISH himself. HAH! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 105
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:38 pm: |
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A_womon,
I have stated more than once on this board that I fully acknowledge that my children are identified as black. I have also stated that while I don't walk in brown skin, I can sure teach children about love --which is the foundation of everything we see, hear, feel and touch --and ultimately, is the most important thing for the success of ANY human being. I have been with my husband so long. We have already confronted numerous walls and barriers, but love prevents you from being "snared" by evil, a_womon. Love is more powerful than hate. Love always wins. Being that my husband is black, they will always have family who can help if I can't. There are no issues with handling any challenges that come our way either, especially because we have always understood and respected the dynamics of our love/relationship.
I really don't give a shyt if you aren't interested in my opinion --it doesn't negate the fact that I'm a white woman raising black children. I could see if I was disrespectful, or held some outlandish view of black people in general, but your demons are so transparent when all you want to do is try to pick me apart because I'm being absolutely diligent about raising my children in an enviroment that will foster their self-esteem, spirituality, intellect, and creativity. I'm not raising more black men who will end up in jail, or disrespecting women, or shooting up other black men. I won't be raising black women who will just be another number in a stat. I, with the help of my husband and extended family members, am raising black children that are destined to become productive, happy and peaceful members of this world. As much as you hate it, my opinion does matter, especially since I'm raising "people" you say you love.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 431
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:17 pm: |
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I wasn't feeling that crap you were talkin' at first, Moonie. You startin' to make sense. Hmmm! You should take that show on the road and make a few bucks. "Come one, come all! Step right up! See the white broad making sense!" What a novel idea. Folks would probably pay to see that. You aint on 100% yet, but you are getting there. I still smell a faint smell of pork in the room, but I'll open a window and let some fresh air in.
You got a black husband and striped offspring...that should help you understand a little bit better, but you still off a little. You see, black folks have been raisin' men that don't end up in jail, disrespect women, and shoot up other black men for years. You just don't hear about that 80 or so percent of the population. Believe it or not, there are also a good portion of black women who raise black children that become productive, happy and peaceful members of this world, too. But I'm sure you'll do just fine.
Good luck, Moonrider. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 610
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:26 pm: |
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You are so delusional moonsigns. Do you even bother to read what you post before you post it? So what are you saying? That all other mothers who are black are raising young men to go to jail and their young women to be statistics? Your thinking is so preposterous, as I've told you before, it's laughable. You can't even conceive of how that remark in itself is racist! Let me clue you in ONCE again. There are just as many white people doing the same things as black children, teen pregnancy is NOT a black thing it is a Societal thing, and IF there are more young black men in prison, it is NOT due to the fact that they commit more crime, and NOT becuase white boys have more self control, it is because black young men get convicted at a higher rate for lesser offenses that their white counterparts. THIS IS A FACT.
And NO your birthing a black man's child does NOT preclude your racist arrogant views, which are obvious to everyone but yourself. You don't even realize that the views that you post ARE outlandish and OUTDATED!! That's why you are such a joke. You may be the mother of a black man's children, but if your views are any reflection, you haven't got a clue as to how to raise them!
And though I wish no ill on any innocent child, whether or not they become a statistic, well only time will tell.
Yes, you MAY be able to teach your children about love, but what can you teach them about self love? Can you teach them to love the black skin they are in? God forbid that they should ever read any of this horse manure you post.
Love always wins hunh? Is that why ROMEO and JULIET wound up dead? Is that why Sampson's love for Delilah caused him to end up losing all of his power AND his eyesight? What about the AFRICAN beauty Cleopatra and Marc Antony? did love conquer all for them...the list goes on my dear so take off your fantasy shades, sweetie LOVE is not THE panacea you spout for all things. YOU need a large dose of common sense, and the ablility to face reality with more than useless prose! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 980
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:06 am: |
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WOW!
Miss a lil', miss a lot! Somebody even drug Moonsigns back into the fray.
Yawl hafta give me a chance to catch-up. But don't worry, I will soon enuff.
WOW! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 981
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:40 am: |
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Yukio,
First, my prior post that related to this subject was intended for the " New York Times on New Magazines for Black Men" topic. All this hopping around the board is turning my (already woeful) sense of direction into Jell-O. But nonetheless, to avoid further confusion, I'll continue this thread here.
I agree that interest is the subject matter you mention does exist. I just think, to massmarket such a magazine, its format must be of an especially compelling type.
But don't believe. Believe your own eyes.
Look on the newsstands and compare the number of women mags to those of male mags. Then subtract from the male mags those that relate to scoring women, cars and stereo equipment. I wager what you will see the men mags are less than 10% of what is geared to females. There are reasons for that disparity. And people who are much more schooled in the art/science of selling periodicals than either you or myself have grappled with that for many years.
But, again, if you differ, prove me wrong...start your own magazine! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 725
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:02 am: |
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moonsigns: I don't know if u saw/read this before. I agree that everyone should learn standard english...there is no disagreement, here.
Also, I'll agree to disagree. There is really no way for us to talk on this particular subject, for you post(s) lacks any historical sensibility. I read passion in your words but your passion and opinions are ahistorical. Immigrants always forced themselves to learn US english...there were Americanization programs during the Progressive Era and 20s, but that was mostly for exploiting workers and enabling them to learn english inorder to brainwash and manipulate workers as well as usher them away from trade unions...
Ebonics is not "slang"...reread bluefreezy's post. MOst black don't even speak ebonics; they speak bad english...there is a differences among slang, ebonics and bad english...
Finally, your comments about raising black children sounds "disrespectful and outlandish." Not sure if you realize that...and I'm not saying that you meant this either...
Your post could be interpreted as suggesting that your whiteness would be responsible for "uplifting" these poor black children, and that black folk don't raise healthy children.
Just some thoughts.... |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 726
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:04 am: |
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abm: I don't even disagree with u about success...I just don't equate success w/what we NEED is all... |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 611
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:08 am: |
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MOst black don't even speak ebonics; they speak bad english...
DUDE, you tired or either you been hittin that pipe, cuz where you get that MOST black kids speak bad english @@@%$%$ don't you mean SOME? You musta got hit in the head with a Cosby quote!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 982
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:28 am: |
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Foks,
I guess I am somewhere in the center where Moonsigns is on one end and Yukio/A_womon are on the other.
Obviously, I think being fluent Standard English is essential to becoming a successful American citizen, irrespective of one's race/creed/religion. And I believe those who defiantly refuse to master Standard English court disaster of their own making. Because foks, we are "In Rome". So until a "Tyrone" is declared Emperor, we gottah "...do what Roman do!"
And I believe knowing Standard English is more achievable than many of us are willing to accept or indulge for the reasons I have previously stated (e.g., don't want to study hard, don't want to appear to be selling-out, etc.)
This, to me, knowing Standard English is not an issue of preference. It is one of practicality and survival.
Yay, Moonsigns!
I don't, however view any grade/type of English to be inherently superior/inferior to another. Nor do I think such connotes one's relative level of intellect/sophistication. The merits of any language/dialect can only be judged based on whether it permits one to effectively communicate where/when such is of the most immediate concern/import. Thus, I believe that Ebonics (and, yes, I am applying this term loosely, but please, for the sake of efficiency, indulge me) is in many situations as every bit as valid/useful an English dialect (or language) as Standard English.
Moreover, I don't think complete/utter assimilation to some vacuous/indeterminable ideal American is either necessary and, for most Black people, even possible. I don't equate perfecting Standard English with being assimilated.
Yay, Yukio/A_womon!
PS: A_womon, your line about Bush's illiteracy is both funny and profound.
PSS: I won't engage in the racism/childrearing turn this discussion has taken (not up to beating that dead horse this evening). But I do find it to be deliciously ironic that (apparently) the ONLY person engaged in this discussion who is the ACTUAL primary caregiver of Black children is...a White woman. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 106
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 07:18 am: |
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Yukio,
My whiteness has nothing to do with me raising black children that will succeed, it is the principles I live by that do. And as lambd stated, there are many black couples that raise successful black children. Would A_womon fault these black parents --these black women, of course not. My "whiteness" is made an issue by everyone else, not me. Abm made a good point about me being one of the only posters who happens to be raising black children --successful ones at that. I "get it" more than people want to believe.
I don't need a lot of historical backround to say that America, in general, has fallen away from traditional standards of what is acceptable and not acceptable. This is an issue that transcends race and class, and goes beyond language. In each of our communities we are seeing the backlash of the loss of values and morals. All people are suffering for it in some kind of way.
I speak standard English when I'm in a professional setting, but will use slang when I'm with my friends. We all do it. I'm no exception. I feel there is a time and place for everything. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 612
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 07:33 am: |
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Abm made a good point about me being one of the only posters who happens to be raising black children --
AND SO WHAT? We have no way to know for sure the state of your efforts at raising your children,now, do we? They could be buck wild and down at the JDC for all we know!
And why does one have to be a parent to KNOW about being a good one? That would be akin to saying I can't know what a good man is unless I am one! PUH LEEZE! I have sense enough to know what values I want to teach my children BEFORE I have them. What? do you all of a sudden grow good parenting skills when you drop a kid in the delivery room? Having children does not automatically mean you are a good parent, if dropping a baby was all that makes a good parent, then everyone who has a baby would be one. right? DUH!!! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 727
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:32 am: |
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abm: We have no disagreement about standard english...no one here is saying that it is not "achievable."...i don't no how more clear I can make this...
moonsigns:
1.Concerning your comments about childrearing...I know your whiteness has nothing to do with raising healthy black children. I made the comments to inform you of ONE way your post could be interpreted. Thats it! It was more of a heads up!
2. Comments about the US: I think your entire analysis is unfounded. As my post demonstrated, the US has NEVER been about ensuring that all its citizens learn standard english...if this is the case, then the "standards" you describe are more a figment of US mythology! You do NEED historical background, because your analysis of the present makes no sense w/o it!
I don't know what else you're talking about...because now your talkin about values and morals...what does this have to do w/standard english...your image of this country's past/present is wanting, but I guess you can do that...
Also, you keep saying such and such "transcends..." This is incorrect. This country has NEVER treated all citizens equally! Poor people have NEVER had the access to education that the middling and upper classes have had! Similarly, people of color haven't either...Your opinions are founded on hopes not what has or is happening!
3.Concerning standard english: I've said a gabillion times we have no disagreement here. I think everyone should learn standard english. The disagreement is calling "ebonics" slang. As it pertains to ebonics, you know not of what you speak. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 728
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:38 am: |
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Desegregation Study Spurs Debate Over Equity Remedies
By Peter Schmidt
In the wake of a national study showing that the campaign to desegregate the public schools continues to lose ground, education and civil-rights leaders have called for renewed efforts to improve the education of black and Hispanic children wherever they go to school.
The National School Boards Association's Council of Urban Boards of Education last month issued a report indicating that the segregation of the nation's black students now exceeds 1970 levels. Hispanic students, the report found, are even less likely to be educated in integrated settings.
Some analysts conceded that ending racial isolation no longer appears plausible in school systems that have few remaining white students. They called instead for more resources to be directed to the minority students left in such settings.
"We have to concentrate on the quality of education wherever students may find themselves, be that in an integrated setting or a racially isolated one,'' said Beverly P. Cole, the director of education and housing for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People.
At the same time, however, few appeared ready to abandon school desegregation as a goal. Many experts, including the study's authors, said the solution is beefed-up enforcement of civil-rights laws.
"Segregation inherently denies a quality education,'' asserted Karen N. Hanson, an education-policy associate for the National Council of La Raza.
Many of the report's findings echo the conclusions of several similar studies issued by the N.S.B.A. in recent years. The reports have attempted to document the results of what Gary Orfield, the studies' chief author, described as the Reagan and Bush administrations' retreat from enforcing civil-rights laws in schools. (See Education Week, Jan. 15, 1992, and March 29, 1989.)
Southern Resegregation
"The civil-rights impulse from the 1960's is dead in the water, and the ship is floating backward toward the shoals of racial segregation,'' Mr. Orfield, a professor of education and social policy at Harvard University, said in issuing his most recent report.
Confirming a trend noted in a 1989 N.S.B.A. study, the newest report finds that schools in the South grew significantly more segregated between 1988 and 1991.
The pattern of resegregation in the South is especially noteworthy, the report says, because that region previously had not experienced a reversal since the U.S. Supreme Court struck down school segregation in 1954.
Intensive civil-rights enforcement in the South, where blacks and whites tended to live in relatively close proximity, had left the region's schools the most integrated in the country as of 1970.
"Given recent changes in the law and a widespread debate among Southern school boards about ending desegregation plans, the increase in segregation shown here could foreshadow much larger moves toward racial isolation in the future,'' the study says.
The worst segregation of blacks and Hispanics occurs in the Northeast, where the practice was not established by statute and far less enforcement of civil-rights laws has occurred.
Intense in Older Cities
About half of black and Hispanic public school students in the Northeast attend intensely segregated schools, with enrollments that are at least 90 percent minority, the study notes.
The most segregated states tend to be those with large minority populations, such as New York and New Jersey. The states that are most fragmented into school districts also tend to be more racially segregated, unless they are under desegregation plans that cross district lines.
Examining segregation in relation to community size, the study found that racial isolation remains high in big cities, serious in middle-sized central cities, and problematic in some suburbs of the largest metropolitan areas. It is most intense in older industrial cities that were hemmed in by independent suburbs more than a century ago.
Small cities and towns, the suburbs of mid-sized cities, and rural areas tend to be more integrated, the report says.
Largely because of these factors, New York State was found to have the highest segregation of Hispanic students and was among the most segregated states for blacks.
A report issued by a New York panel last month contends that the state has two school systems--one urban, minority, poor, and failing, and the other suburban, white, affluent, and successful. (See story, page 14.)
U.S. Secretary of Education Richard W. Riley said in a statement last month that the N.S.B.A. report "raises serious questions about the disturbing trend toward racial and economic isolation of students in our public schools.''
Questions on Data
But J. Michael Ross, a researcher in the U.S. Education Department's office of educational research and improvement and a former research analyst at the Justice Department, criticized Mr. Orfield for basing his descriptions of certain trends on flawed analyses that Mr. Ross said failed to distinguish between intradistrict and interdistrict segregation.
The N.S.B.A. report also drew criticism for its statement that whites have stayed in the public school system and that the rising proportions of minorities in public schools are due primarily to birth rates and immigration patterns.
David J. Armor, a senior fellow at the Institute of Public Policy at George Mason University in Virginia, said his studies of school-enrollment data show desegregation efforts do appear to promote "white flight'' from the public system.
Citing the report's findings that racial and economic isolation are closely linked, most of the experts interviewed called for more money to be spent on schools with many low-income students. The Clinton Administration has called for more Chapter 1 resources to be directed toward the poorest schools.
The N.S.B.A. report, however, says that strategy would punish districts that have tried to become integrated and that evenly distribute poor and minority children.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 729
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:40 am: |
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Schools More Separate: Consequences of a Decade of Resegregation
By Gary Orfield
LEARN MORE
En Español
Lea este reporte en español: "La segregación en las escuelas está aumentando a pesar de la mayor diversidad entre los niños en edad escolar" por Gary Orfield.
CONVENINGS
The Resegregation of Southern Schools?
On August 30, 2002, CRP held the above conference on the resegregation of southern schools. Speakers were invited from major institutions all over the nation and research commissioned for this conference totalled 17 papers.
RESEARCH
Race in Public Schools
What Students Say
On January 29, 2002, we released one of a series of studies on public schools across the nation to determine what students in diverse and segregated schools learn in preparation for adult life and work.
Executive Summary
Almost half a century after the U.S. Supreme Court concluded that Southern school segregation was unconstitutional and "inherently unequal," new statistics from the 1998-99 school year show that racial and ethnic segregation continued to intensify throughout the 1990s. This resegregation is happening despite the nation's growing diversity, in particular the rapid expansion in the Latino student population, and is contributing to a growing gap in quality between the schools being attended by white students and those serving a large proportion of minority students. Although public schools in the South remain more integrated than they were prior to the civil rights revolution, they are resegregating at accelerating rates. In the decade between 1988 and 1998, most of the progress made toward increasing integration in the region during the previous two decades was lost.
The steady resegregation of schools in the South is noteworthy because, between 1964 and 1970, this region witnessed the nation's greatest increase in racial integration. Prior to 1964, the intense segregation of schools in the South effected the nation's largest number of black students. However, as a result of the remarkable transformation that took place in its schools for almost a quarter century--between 1964 and 1988-the South boasted the highest level of integration of its schools in the nation, and the most substantial contact between black and white students. Even today, despite the rapid pace in which schools are resegregating, the South remains the only region of the country where whites typically attend schools with significant numbers of blacks.
National school segregation trends parallel these patterns. More than 70% of the nation's black students now attend predominantly minority schools. Yet, the most dramatic and largely ignored trends affect Latino students. While intense segregation for blacks is still 28 points below its 1969 level, it has actually grown 13.5 points for Latinos. In 1968, only a little more than 20% of Latino students were enrolled in intensely segregated schools. In 1998, more than one-third of Latino students attend intensely segregated schools.
According to the data, white students remain the most segregated from all other races in their schools. Whites on average attend schools where less than 20% of the students are from all of the other racial and ethnic groups combined. On average, blacks and Latinos attend schools with 53% to 55% students of their own group. Latinos attend schools with far higher average black populations than whites do, and blacks attend schools with much higher average Latino enrollments. American Indian students attend schools in which about a third (31%) of the students are from Indian backgrounds.
The report also charts the rapid growth of minority populations in the nation's suburbs, which have traditionally been described as overwhelmingly white. Yet, despite the growing diversity of these areas, suburban schools remain segregated, particularly in the large metropolitan areas. The high level of suburban segregation reported for African American and Latino students in this report suggests that suburban communities must address a major set of challenges to achieve greater integration and equality in its schools.
National and Regional Trends
National:
The U.S. is now in the midst of its largest immigration ever in terms of numbers (not percentages) of newcomers, with the overwhelming majority of new immigrants being Hispanic and Asian. In the three decades between 1968 and 1998, the number of black and Latino students in the nation's public schools increased by 5.8 million; while the number of white students declined by 5.6 million. The number of Latino students grew by an extraordinary 245%, from just 2 million in 1968 to 6.9 million thirty years later. In l968 there were more than three times as many blacks as Latinos in our schools, but in 1998 there were seven Latino students for every eight blacks, and soon there will be more Latino than black students. Our schools will be our first major institutions to experience non-white majorities.
The Asian growth is even more rapid than the Latino expansion but started from a much lower base. Asian students are concentrated in the West where they make up 8% of the students, and in Hawaii, where they account for 72% of total enrollment. American Indian students are also concentrated in the West and in Alaska, where they account for 2.5% of all students.
South and West:
Maps showing minority enrollment across the U.S. indicate that the South and West have far higher concentrations of non-white students than the rest of the nation, where minority enrollment tends to be heavily concentrated in the big cities and some of the older suburbs. Although no major region had a majority-minority student enrollment by the 1998-99 school year, the West-encompassing a vast region including the Pacific coast states and the Rocky Mountain States as well as the desert Southwest--had only 52% white students. The South-identified as the states from Virginia to Texas that made up the old Confederacy--had only 55% white students. Both of these regions are likely to have white minorities in their schools within the next few years.
The West is the only region where blacks are now the third largest of the minority populations, with just 7% of total enrollment. In the West, there are four Latino students for every African American. The Asian population is larger than the black enrollment and growing much faster.
The Northeast and Midwest:
The other major regions of the country, stretching from Maine to Maryland, and from Oklahoma to the Dakotas to the East Coast, have from two-thirds to three fourths white students. These are experiencing less dramatic change, in part because they are growing more slowly and receiving fewer of the new minority immigrants.
The Implications
The implications of these trends are significant, because research consistently shows that segregated schools are usually isolated by both race and poverty, and offer vastly unequal educational opportunities. Moreover, convincing evidence exists that desegregated schools both improve test scores and positively change the lives of students. A 1999 study of two elite law schools shows, for example, that almost all of the admitted black and Latino students who were admitted into those schools came from integrated educational backgrounds. Minority students with the same test scores tend to be much more successful in college if they attended interracial high schools. In fact, racial differences in achievement and graduation have begun to expand again in the 1990's, in concert with growing segregation of schools, after closing substantially between the 1960s and the mid-1980s.
In today's economy, the consequences of unequal education have become more severe because employment and income are more sharply linked to education than in the past. Post-secondary education is essential to significantly share in the benefits of economic growth, and the availability of well-paying manufacturing jobs with low educational requirements has declined greatly. High school graduates with no college or technical training have also experienced serious economic decline as educational requirements are increasing. High school dropouts find themselves in jobs that pay only half as much as a quarter century ago, in spite of the greater wealth in society. Those who drop out are also far more likely than graduates to end up in the ever-expanding prison population with staggering costs to the economy. Dropout rates are by far the highest in a few hundred segregated high-poverty high schools; about half of the high schools in the largest cities were graduating less than half of their students in the mid-1990s, and there were overwhelmingly segregated minority schools.
American Attitudes toward Desegregated Schools
Surprisingly, poll data reveals that, by huge majorities, Americans of all races express a preference for integrated education and believe it is very important for their children to learn to understand and work with others of different racial and ethnic backgrounds. Yet, there has been little or no positive political leadership on this issue for a generation, from any branch of government, and the courts have made a dramatic turn around in decisions about desegregated schools. They have moved from requiring desegregation in the late 1960's and early 1970's to, in many cases, pressing for the elimination of desegregation plans or even forbidding voluntary action that communities wish to undertake on their own. There has been little public discussion outside local communities about the return to segregation that has been occurring on throughout the 1990s. Citizens in some communities, such as Charlotte, NC, have elected school boards committed to integration only to have their will blocked by a federal court forbidding any conscious effort to achieve or maintain desegregation. Just this month a federal District Court terminated a desegregation order in one of the nation's largest districts, Dade County, Florida.
Why then are schools returning to segregation in the face of mounting evidence that Americans support diversity in their schools and that desegregated schools are more beneficial to all students? We believe that the answer lies in a combination of several factors: 1) a dramatic reversal in policy by the U.S. Supreme Court and a number of lower courts; 2) the overall failure to develop a policy a quarter century ago that could deal with the realities of metropolitan communities, and 3) the large demographic transformation the country now faces. It is a crisis of law, policy, and demography.
Policy Recommendations
The census data shows that, increasingly, there will be entire metropolitan areas and states with either no majority group or where the majority group will be Latino or African American. This will be a new phenomenon in American educational history. In terms of policy, we can proceed in one of two directions: 1) we make a far more concerted, aggressive and pro-active effort to create pluralistic, integrated schools, or 2) we risk increasing serious racial and ethnic polarization, probably reinforced by educational inequalities, and the possibility of excluding the majority of students from any reasonable access to educational mobility.
The report recommends that we pursue the first option, through the following steps:
expansion of the federal magnet school program and the imposition of similar desegregation requirements for federally supported charter schools;
active support by private foundations and community groups of efforts to continue local desegregation plans and programs, through research, advocacy and litigation;
creation of expertise on desegregation and race relations training in state departments of education;
documentation through school district surveys of the value (in legal terms, the compelling value of interracial schooling experience in their own cities;
creation of many two-way integrated bilingual schools in which students of each language group interact, learn, and help each other acquire fluency in a second language;
provision of funding for better counseling and transportation for interdistrict transfer policies;
promotion and funding of teacher exchanges between city and suburban school districts, and training of teachers in techniques for successful interracial classrooms;
exploration of school and housing policies to avoid massive resegregation of large sections of the inner suburbs;
sponsorship through federal and state funds and universities of integrated metropolitan-wide magnet schools;
launching of serious new scholarship focusing on the most effective approaches to effective education and race relations in schools with three or more racial groups present in significant numbers and two or more languages strongly represented;
careful documentation of the impact on students in districts that restore segregated neighborhood schools. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 730
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:51 am: |
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what is more clear, one could surmise from this information, is that there is a resurgence of the US standards of jingoism, nativism, racism and inequality. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 984
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:13 pm: |
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A_womon,
First, are YOU a parent as well? If so, then I suppose one of my prior comments is erroneous.
I believe I was the first here to say to Moonsigns that her Black children likely has been and/or will be faced with issues of color that she likely can not prepare them for. Still, I do respect the fact that Moonsigns IS a parent of children whom as she says the world will consider to be Black.
And parenthood is not a kind of ‘funk’ that one can easily ‘fake’. When it cuts to the quick, you either ARE one or your NOT. Because opinions/philosophies/theories about parent/child-hood, no matter how well-reasoned, are often rendered meaningless versus the inexorably relentless joys/burdens of parenthood.
I don’t wholly discount or discard the views about children from non-parents. But all other things being equal (and in many cases, not "equal"), I am going to side with those who have endured a colicky 2 month-old, 2:00 AM emergency room visits and an emotionally spastic teenage daughter.
Skin color be damned!
A_womon (and All),
It is interesting how you interpreted parts of what Moonsigns said to be racist. I understand HOW you could draw those suppositions. But I don’t fully share them.
Moreover, our frequent (and often convenient) urge to tab others as being racist often inhibits productive discourse. Because to me, the word "racist" connotes active, willful conspiracy to sabotage and prohibit those of another race/nationality from progressing/prevailing. I simply do not see how/where what Moonsigns has done here equate to that.
Now, does some of what Moonsigns say carry tings of prejudice? Perhaps? But in all honesty, she could truthfully express similar thoughts about what WE ALL regularly express here. Should WE stop saying/thinking as we do about White people because many of THEM consider such to be prejudice? I’m sure we would all plead a resounding NAY to such a notion.
I know you probably think I am kissin’ tail with the local White girl. (And, okay a probably would..if she lemme. Hehe!) But frankly, part of what I enjoy about communicating with Moonsigns she is one of the few White people I have met (in person, letter, email or website) who has managed to (quite earnestly/effectively) continue to assert her views on race and related subject matter amongst a majority of Blacks. Most of them simply can’t hang. Even a format as anonymous as this, they often weasel out because they can’t bear to be placed in the position of a ‘minority. So gottah give dah Moony Momma her props fer dat. And I think it does her, us and anyone else who might spy these threads good to here/see what she says, even (perhaps ‘especially’) when/where we disagree.
I don’t pretend to know the HOW we should talk to each other. But perhaps we should, at least at times, try to cut each other some slack and allow others to express themselves without (unless there is SERIOUS support for the contrary) attributing the scourge of "racism" to what they have to say.
Yukio,
JEEZUS, Man! You got an Executive Summary of all of that you can send to a brothah. Cuz I don’t know if my ADD will allow me to make it thru all dat.
I apologize for mischaracterizing your views about Standard English.
Moonsigns,
For Black people, the problem with asserting "tradition", "values" and "morals" (or the ‘past’) over what is currently done (or the ‘present’) is those practices often harbored/buttressed A LOT of EVILS, many of which have been most onerously exacted upon Black people. So when you start championing some fabled days of yesteryear, often things like "sharecropping", "separate but equal", "segregation", "redlining", "poll tax", etc. come to OUR minds.
And even though we may complain about much of the current socio-cultural apparatus, most of us would on balance agree that what we do now and in future offer us much more promise than the burdens bore by our ancestry.
So, I would suggest than rather focus on "tradition" and etc., we should instead highlight what WORKS. That may, of course, include much of what was done in generations past and a lot of what is done today (which, coincidentally, include Black men and White women being free to birth/raise raise a family together). |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 985
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:17 pm: |
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A_womon,
I know the prior post appears as though I seek to 'pick on' you. Believe me I don't. It's just that you touched on a couple of issues that have, I guess, been struck in my craw. Truly, I likely would/have directed these same views to MANY other Black people I know.
So please don't take what I wrote personally. K? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 613
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:27 pm: |
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I'm not raising more black men who will end up in jail, or disrespecting women, or shooting up other black men. I won't be raising black women who will just be another number in a stat. I, with the help of my husband and extended family members, am raising black children that are destined to become productive, happy and peaceful members of this world. As much as you hate it, my opinion does matter, especially since I'm raising "people" you say you love.
Now you tell me ABM how you can even remotely assert that you don't see the covert racism in that paragraph? It assumes that there are mothers out there raising kids to shoot and kill one another and get pregnant! I am done beating this dead horse. I am sick of your cheerleading this person on and co-signing the very views that keep the status quo functioning broken though it is! And most of your cheerleading is so that you can continue persuing your moribund fantasies! fantasize on my brother cause at the end of the day IT IS WHAT IT IS!!!
Im not taking anything personally, believe that. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 614
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:29 pm: |
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And NO I'm not a statistic!!! I don't have a baby and am not having any unless Im married!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 615
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 12:30 pm: |
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Yukio,
I apologize for my earlier remarks. They weren't warranted. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 731
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:04 pm: |
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abm: You are silly...
Also, as i said to moonsigns, I was giving her a heads up(ie help, though she may not have wanted or sought it)...I neither called her a racist nor suggested that she was one...
Regarding her "race": It is irrelevant; if i disagree w/u it is because of what is written not the mythology of "race." Of course, I think we often disagree because of the convenience of her socalled 'race.' But I disagree w/many folk for a variety of reasons...what u are doing is a form of "affirmative action"! lmao! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 732
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:21 pm: |
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The paragraph that A_womon quotes SOUNDS racist as hell, because if Moonsigns is not "raising more black men who will end up in jail, or disrespecting women, or shooting up other black men," WHO IS?
Again, it seems that wasn't her intent, so becare people that communication is a two-way street...we read for tone, multiple meanings, etc...so it is always better to ask the author! Though one should always listen to their gut feelings...
The WORD CAN BE A KILLA...but INTERPRETATIONS KILL!
Rather than being patient w/moonsigns, people need to be patient in general...
Since we come to the table w/different class, cultural, regional, ethnic, and "racial" experiences, these same differences are often inherent/embedded in our words, phrases, and general language.
This doesn't mean that we can communicate, but socalled "complete" or "full" understanding is impossible!
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 733
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:23 pm: |
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damn the typos...I meant "beware people that communication is a two-way street...." |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 988
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 01:49 pm: |
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Yukio,
I did not say that YOU referred to her as a racist. And actually, I didn't post those comments solely for A_womon (though her comments inspired them) and us who regularly post here. Rather, I was making statements that I hope the countless others who spy our words, even if they who might never post their own commentary.
And I wholeheartedly concur that we all could benefit from AVOIDING attributing (often) negative/controversial intent upon the words of others without giving said others the courtesy of clarifying their meaning.
A_womon,
Help me.
Because I endeavor to respect what you think/say (that's of course when I am not totally BS#@+ing). But, I don’t know how to response to you.
Are you serious or being sarcastic? Is this our "generation gap"? Or you don’t like me vibin’ with the White girl?
I don’t know. But I do know we have traveled this troublesome road before. And I have grown weary of its boring scenery.
In spite of what you apparently think, I would sincerely rather converse, not quarrel, with you. But I guess what I desire is moot, as you appear to be firmly inured within both the substance/tone of what you think/believe. So I will leave it to YOU to determine a way in which we might understand and more comfortably enjoy each other's company. (Assuming we can do that at all.)
Because although I like to ‘play’ with girls, I’d rather not ‘fight’ with them.
Cynique,
Okay. It's time I admit: You have REALLY ‘spoiled’ us guys. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 432
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 02:09 pm: |
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That $hit sounded rascist as hell to me too, Yukio! It's just that I went the route to bring it to her attention so that she could save face and rephrase. A_woman took the, "We should whip that white, rascist, bit(%'$ ass!" approach. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 107
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 04:14 pm: |
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This is good stuff, definitely good stuff. I don't have much time to write now, but want to add a small bit.
Yukio,
You're a complete brain and I've always told you I respect your point of view, although I tend to disagree. I will respond to your points when I have more time.
Abm, also some good points. Again, I'll respond later.
To all,
I can see how my comments could/or do offend some people. However, I think that what I have to say is not offensive, just that a white woman said it. I don't mean to step on folks toes, but reality is reality --just as subtle and overt white supremacy is a reality --a reality most white folks don't like to face, especially when they hear it from non-whites. This issue is much the same but vice versa. I don't like to look at the ugly things people of my race do, however, some things are true and in order to change them I must be willingly to confront them. I compare this to how the average white person behaves when confronted about the subtle, but ever present, realities of white supremacy. They take offense because it's "airin' dirty laundry" --it stinks. I fully understand that there are many dynamics that influence our society, unjust and just. I know the offense primarily is that people don't like to talk about such issues in the presence of "outsiders" --it's not as comfortable. It is a touchy subject because people generally have the tendency to take it personally. I'm not at all saying that any of you are shooting up other blacks, or running around with a bunch of kids, however, there are blacks doing this --and it IS a problem. That I won't even discuss.
If a black mother or father were to say what I said about raising their black children to not be part of "the system", they would be appaulded. It is hypocritical to think that based on the merit that I'm white, I shouldn't be able to verbalize my hope for my children --and the plan of action we are taking to ensure they have opportunity to flourish. I'm damned for making sure I do everything and anything to prevent them from becoming a stat, and I would be damned if I wasn't teaching them that they are considered black in this world. It is not the principle that people take issue with, it's with me being white --"how dare that white gurl say that"
I love my family with a fervent passion. For very obvious reasons, what concerns them will naturally concern me. I should be able to verbalize those issues without some ridiculous accusation that I'm a racist! What name do you call blacks who want the same thing for their black children?
I can't wait to hear this answer!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1180
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 05:09 pm: |
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Here's something you might consider, Moonsigns. You keep classifying your children as "black." But in reality they are not. They are mixed, and there is a whole community out there of mixed-raced children who have started identifying themselves as "other", and these ranks are growing by leaps and bounds. Your children might grow up and decide that they don't want to totally embrace their father's "race." You might be raising them to be something they don't want to be. This whole thing about race is very complicated. Ten years from now the whole dynamic of it may have changed drastically, and new rules might apply. I think that the problem with you is that you are trying too hard. Just be white. Stop trying to change people's minds. Only time can do that. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 108
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 06:50 pm: |
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Cynique,
To me, they will always be biracial. However, socially, my experience has proven that the average person considers them black. I have confronted the ignorance from every angle imaginable regarding their race. While they also look very much biracial, they will never look into the mirror and see white skin. Ultimately, I think the average biracial person ends up indentifying themselves as black --my opinion though.
We, as parents, have never forced one or the other on them and it has never been a major issue. Our family is also amazingly chill (our marriage was never an issue), therefore, they have never had to deal with the drama that they are half white, or half black from immediate/extended family members. Humaness, above all else, has always been at the forefront of our rearing. Just as important as it is to teach them they are human above all else, they must also be socially aware. It is a fine balance because it is indeed complicated --only because of prejudice on the part of ignorant people.
I don't know how they will feel when they are young adults. Time will only tell. Regardless of whatever, I'm not concerned in the least. They will always care about justice and peace.
Hopefully, ten years from now race won't have the power it does. Race, the way it is devalued rather than celebrated, is but used as a tool of oppression. I would love to see the social construct of race eradicated.
I don't view myself as "trying too hard", I just have walked this walk long enough to know better than to try fool myself, or anyone else.
On a side note, I want to talk to you about some things regarding various faiths and spirituality. I'll post something later.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 616
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 06:51 pm: |
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If you were just making a general statement, moonsigns and weren't being racist, then why didn't you use a non race specific comparison or choose some white negative imagery to demonstrate how you're not raising your kids? Why didn't you say, "I'm not raising more serial killers, like Ted Bundy or murdering cannibal Jeffery Dahmer? Why did YOU choose to list black male stereotype as your example?
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 734
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 07:04 pm: |
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cynique...interesting post...What do mean when u say just be white?
moonsigns:
Those are parents who love their children.
You have some points, and I'm sure your post does characterize some black people, but all black folk don't hold the same beliefs...You wrongly assume that if u were black your comments would be applauded! NOT!
In my opinion, the real issue is about what u meant...I have grown up with the saying, sorry abm i've learned this long ago, "Its not what you say... its how u say it"! And HOW u/we say what we say gives our words as much meaning as the words do...as well as the identity of the speaker!
The issue is MEANING and interpretation! IF you or anyone MEANT that black people generally raise delinquents then your identity would only be part of what contributes to the interpretation---and on the other hand, your identity would be irrelevant--you would just be wrong!
The question, then, would be: WHY are you wrong?
Are you wrong because you're stereotyping black people or because you're both stereotyping black people AND saying that Whites only raise productive citizens.
Again, the issue is MEANING and INTERPRETATION!
In this regard, if black parents said what u said, I would NEED to find out what they meant!
If they meant that black parents, unlike themselves, raised delinquents then I would have a problem with them...because they are projecting the untruism that black people generally/typically raise delinquents...this was my and others problem with Bill Cosby(as you know, a respected black man).
Since these hypothetical parents are not white, their comments probably wouldn't be interpreted to mean that they believe that whites only raise productive citizens....but nevertheless, their comments DO INDEED stereotyping black people--this is irresponsible and incorrect.
POINT: YOU can say that you're going to raise responsible productive citizens WITHOUT SIMULTANEOULY saying that black people generally raise delinquents!
What is clear NOW through your clarification, is that you believe that SOME black people raise delinquents and others raise productive citizens....as I said, its always helps when the author is available to ask questions! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 110
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 07:41 pm: |
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A_womon,
Your point is justified. However, that is not the issue we are discussing.
We are at this point in conversation only because when I made my initial post regarding this topic (an opinion you differ with), you told me (paraphrasing) that I need to consider the barriers and walls that I refuse to address because they may one day "snare" my offspring. You also stated that you don't care about my opinion on "African American" issues...I will never "get it"....and the problems my black children face will supersede my opinion, mentality and my biased view. Basically, in a nutshell, you render my parenting ineffective based on the fact I don't agree with 95% percent of the shyt you say, as well as the fact I'm white and have a black husband (which, btw, makes you "puke"). Your argument is so dam* tired!
The comparisons I have made are to dispell your overemotional, ignorant rants about how I can't teach my children anything that will be of importance to their life experiences (regarding racism/prejudice) just because I'm white. You, on the one hand, want to say I refuse to accept that they are considered black, and in the next breath, call me a racist because I have always acknowledged they are black and am ensuring a positive future for them. Again, if what I said was coming from a black woman or man, you'd be on it --just talking about how "strong" they are --how they are "keeping it real". It is straight hypocrisy.
When you want to start making some general statements that don't involve my race and your insecurity regarding black male/white female relationships, then you won't need to ask me such stupid questions about why don't I use "non-race specific comparisons" to make my points. On a side note, this always comes full circle to you and your problems. You make race an issue, not me. Don't get that shty twisted!
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Miss_wysteria
First Time Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:08 pm: |
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Moonsigns
#1..while "race" is a social construct...COLOR is not. And it's always been about color anyway. This whole issue of "race as social construct" and Black Intellectual Men SUDDENLY claiming that race doesn't exist--is mainly because they married white women and felt compelled to convince themselves that they weren't destroying their own seed and selling out their own people. In other words, they could have their STATUS SYMBOL and be immune to "social responsibilities" of the immediate black community and diaspora at the same time. I'm not sickened by your marriage to a black man or your obvious love for your black-perceived children..but I am TIRED (to borrow your shitty phrase) by your own white supremacist comfort zones--in particular your decision to frequent a BLACK VENUE and talk about the black experience to black people as though you own the place.
#2--I agree with you that you are being UNFAIRLY picked on here because you're "white" and for no other reason. But still, there's an arrogance about your attitude that bleeds more than it milks. You should
#3--A WOMAN is right. Your comments about what type of mother you won't be were informed by both social racism and by negative stereotypes that Black Males (probably such as your husband) have fostered and spread about black mothers--and typically, black men came to your defense, denying that your comments were totally disrespectful and uncalled for.
You raise the point that if a black female had said the same words, she would get a pass....and OF COURSE she would...because it's like a white person using the "N" word.
Just because your husband is BLACK, it doesn't give you cart blanche to (indirectly) insult black parents, whether you meant to or not.
You're still a white woman and IN MY PRESENCE you would not be allowed to call black people "nigger" without getting knocked square in your nice, liberal mouth.
#4--My only sympathy and LIKING for you up to this point had been that you seem to me like a sensible, loving, caring parent who struggles with the dual difficulties of raising "racialized" children and of being a WHITE woman in that predicament.
I really respect and commend you for that.
But I find your arrogance towards AWOMAN distasteful (considering that this is a Black Venue where Black women should feel comfortable and welcomed MORE than you should--don't you already own planet earth thanks to White Supremacy???)...and considering that the "White Supremacy" you mentioned earlier is exactly what makes it possible for you to throw your WHITE weight around and be shitty....as you well know that Black Males are the biggest DUPES of white supremacy and will support you and Appreciate your STEREOTYPES about the black mothers that they never appreciated in the first place.
As a black mother--I really don't like your tone with AWOMAN and like her, I didn't appreciate your analogy.
I would agree that you should be more concerned about raising SERIAL KILLERS and SELF-HATING Brats of Confusion than you should be...the other stereotypes you mentioned.
And since COLOR is not a social construct, my sister, then be advised that it's your white coloring that makes me say these words to you.
Don't come in here and get too carried away.
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Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:18 pm: |
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And next up...you speak of AWOMAN's "insecurities" about Black men's relationships with white women.
In a WHITE SUPREMACIST society that BLOATS you (via racism) to the Status of "Supreme Being"....why in the hell would she and other black women NOT BE insecure???
In fact, it's those "insecurities" and "inequalities" that Arrogant, two faced white women like yourself THRIVE on and COUNT on.
God knows that if your "Black Husband" (Somebody get this skank a cookie) really wanted to pro-create his own IMAGE and was man enough to do so...you wouldn't dare be on a BLACK message board tossing your "I'm WHite and RIGHT" attitude around with such abandon and insensitivity.
Whatever Black Women FEEL about white women's relationships with black men...they have every right to feel it, own it and honor it. After all, it was THEM to gave birth to these black men, fought for these black men to be FREE and made it possible...over 4 centuries...for those men to attain what little respect and honor they do have.
Black men have basically and practically betrayed Black women.
That is an issue that is between them and one that you have no way of judging or taking part in. And especially...YOU will not silence black women and neither will black men any longer.
If you don't want to hear about black women's insecurities--if you're TIRED of black women's drama--then don't bring your white ass in here.
It's as simple as that.
YOU chose to marry into black people's drama. So take the good with the bad.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 618
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:27 pm: |
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HA HA! How FUNNEE! YOU got more jokes than Def Comedy Jam reruns! I gotta give to you, you do know how to keep me laughing with your beyond weak attempts at TRYING to cut me!
Sweetie, You are the one that's twisted! When it comes to ISH you are just "CHOCK FULL"of it. You think you can bounce on and off the topic at will, but when it comes to something you don't want to answer you camoflage it with some old off the wall bulls$%&!
Typical of people like you.
You think the rules of engagement apply to everyone but you. Here is what the topic was about before you butted in with your (unwanted) 2 cents.
We were discussing how the educational system is slanted to benefit white people like you. And what we could do to equalize the playing field so our black youngsters wouldn't be at a disadvantage because of all of the advantages THAT white people like you enjoy.
It had nothing to do with that specious drivel you interjected and I quote:
"ALL need to speak standard English.(because) Successful survival in this country depends on it."
Now, who got off topic? unh hunh YOU of course.
It had NOTHING to do with my comments that you sited. And EVERYTHING to do with your relentless need to ATTEMPT to correct Black people. Talk about Tired, girl, let me tell you, you passed tired and rolled over to snoring loudly 109 posts ago! Let's not even talk about that.
But please, don't let that slow ya roll, you do have your (2) supporters who seem to love your moonshine so let your one ring circus continue. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 619
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 08:32 pm: |
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Miss WYsteria,
AMEN Girl!!!
My last post was meant for Moonsigns, not you. You make VERY Good points!!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 620
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:09 pm: |
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You, on the one hand, want to say I refuse to accept that they are considered black, and in the next breath, call me a racist because I have always acknowledged they are black and am ensuring a positive future for them
Moonsigns you are confused and getting it twisted as usual. Let me clarify something here.
No I said you were racist because all of the comparisons you made were of stereotypical images of black people, and since you are white, I found it STRANGE that you would not use white negative imagery, such as the serial killer example I gave earlier. Of course, you won't admit that your comments are racist, so you throw up a smoke screen to avoid answering a direct question with a direct answer. AS USUAL. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 993
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:37 pm: |
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WHEW!
You know, Charles Barkley recently said that after seeing Beyonce, he don't understand how a man can be gay. But after ALL DIS, I think I'm beginning to understand how some guys might consider going in that direction.
JEEZ! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 111
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 09:46 pm: |
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Miss Wysteria,
#1 What you are saying is true for some black men. However, not all. My decision to be here is by chance. I love poetry and stumbled across this site. I have no walls and enjoy sharing. Being around Blacks, interacting with Blacks and sharing ideas with Blacks is nothing new to me. The world is full of various cultures and races, something I like, as well like to learn about. I like some black authors, and respect the work of many black poets. Please tell Troy to make a "Blacks Only" sign at the door. It would've kept me out.
#2 You thinking I'm arrogant is opinion --we all have one.
#3 Being that you don't know us as a couple, especially him as a man, it would be silly to be so presumptious. My husband has nothing but respect for black women and issues that concern the black community. He can care about these things and also love who he wants to love. Anytime a man and woman procreate, regardless of race, they create their own image.
By marrying a black man, a white woman gets a window into a world that is unlike her own, as does he. There is the good, bad and ugly within each. It shouldn't be taboo to talk about all aspects, both good and bad, of each community. I have my remedy for handling the good, the bad and the ugly within both of our respected races. Just as I'm not raising kids who will shoot up other black people, I'm not raising serial killers or brats. I am equally concerned about both. My husband being black has nothing to do with me thinking I can share such stuff. Peoples actions speak for themselves, be it negative or positive. People commenting on such behavior is only a reflection of what they see.
I have always maintained that issues of human nature transcend race.
#4 I'm not in any "predicament"
A_womon has been more than comfortable miss wysteria. You don't like my tone with her and I don't like overemotional rants --I guess we are even. She isn't one to hold back and either am I. About me owning planet earth......miss wysteria, I know you've met a whole lot of white women who have superiority complexes (I have too and it sucks), however, I'm not one of them. I respect and care for all women. I'm not throwing my "white" weight around, just sharing my opinion, just like everyone else.
I disagree with your assertion that black males are the "biggest dupes" for white supremacy. Males, in general, are socialized to be sexist. Mothers, as the primary care givers need to free themselves first, and then free their children from such mentalities (all races included).
I will say that not all women have adequate resources for birth control, which IS unfair. Usually, regardless of race, it is poor women who suffer the most. However, ANY mother must take responsibility for her behavior, conduct and who she lets between her legs. ALL women are suffering for playing house and opening their legs to men who don't give a dam* about anything but themselves --and then want to cry foul. I have no sympathy and don't have to pretend I do to pacifiy ANY woman who wants to justify the mess we've made (collectively and individually as women) --especially in the US!
You're right, there is white supremacy and I'll be the first to admit it. However, just as there are black parents who aren't raising kids who will shoot other black people, there are white women who don't subscribe to the notion that other women are beneath them. It is horrific what has been done to black women throughout the world. My heart bleeds for some women. However, I must also live my life as well, especially because I don't consider myself better than any other women. Again, it is more than presumptious, simply based on the merit that I'm white, that I count and thrive off of someone elses persecution. If someone desires equality for themselves, they must allow others to live freely as well. If people want to treated like a human, treat others like they are human. It is extremely ironic to me that SOME black women take such serious issue with women they don't even know, however, want to be seen as individuals themselves --and respected. It just doesn't work that way.
You're right, black women have every right to feel, own and honor whatever emotion they carry for interracial relationships, however, it doesn't mean it is right or that it will change such pairings --especially when you don't know the couple personally.
I don't feel that black men have betrayed black women. They continue to date/marry black women more than non-black women. But you're right, if you feel so, it is an issue that needs to be reconciled between them --I just don't appreciate other women trying to shyt on me because they THINK they know what's going on.
I never said I was tired of black women's insecurities or drama --those are your words. What I did say is that A_womons argument was tired --within the context of our postings to one another. Like I said, I've been dealing with this as the day is long. Nothing new. One poster, among many others who are delightful, won't stop my "white ass" from coming here --unless that is, they put a "Blacks Only" sign at the door.
And you are correct, we marry into peoples drama --regardless of race. I have always taken the good with the bad and continue to remain optimistic.
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Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 3
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:10 pm: |
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Well then, ABM, you should understand...EVEN MORE....how so many women can become LESBIAN...having men like yourself and Charles Barkley to choose from.
And I'm pissed at your ass anyway, so you shouldn't talk to me.
Moonsign...I have nothing else to say to you. I had actually really appreciated and felt "warmed" by your input..up until now.
Your arrogance is beyond opinion...it's arrogance and entitlement, mainly derived from your whiteness, but ofcourse, you don't feel you have to acknowledge that...because after all.....only Black Women are calling you on it and therefore, you continue to breeze by and ignore so much of the other truths that were pointed out to you.
As I said before, I will not be silenced by Black men's cynicism (ie. ABM) and especially by your cavalier way of SUDDENLY...and I mean SUDDENLY....rubbing me (and quite a few other black women on this board) the wrong way. We email each other.
Your comments were insulting to me as a black mother--because you're WHITE.
Therefore, my level of trust for you takes time to develop. Much longer than you've given.
And if you were a white male on this board rubbing ANYONE AT ALL the wrong way...these twerps like ABM would be calling you on it and would have probably escorted you out of here by now.
However, because it's only us that feel the ire of your shittiness...the bad feelings simply stew and go hidden by silence and withheld honesties. You claim to care about "all women"--but you've basically come here where your whiteness has WORTH to black males and to make yourself feel better at the expense of others.
In no way are you interested in any connection or sharing of "motherhood" with black women. That's become quite obvious.
I feel very confused that I ever liked you so much.
I do respect your opinion, but I don't want you and I to speak any further.
I'm with AWOMAN all the way.
You're just another two faced White bitch who benefits from the spoils of white supremacy and then has the nerve to give speeches about how self-righteous your husband is and what a well rounded woman you are.
Shove it. And ABM and any other black men who don't like MY OPINION can shove it as well.
As Lauryn Hill said----"When people like you talk...I don't listen."
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Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 4
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:14 pm: |
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And for the record....IN THIS COUNTRY....black men have killed their own mothers (because of color) and have BETRAYED their black women and their mothers....and anyone but a fool can see that.
That's MY OPINION and BELIEF....as a black woman.
You believing otherwise will never solve the problem of what "I" believe to be fact.
And the day will come, surely as the Sun, when you will find out that what "I" believe...has merit with my own children.
You don't honor me and I don't honor you. And so be it.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 735
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 10:40 pm: |
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Miss_wysteria: strong points...serious, even... Particularly, the reasoining behind: "(indirectly) insult black parents, whether you meant to or not." This is something to think about! I generally agree with your sentiments, which is why older black women often cringe and grab their bags when they see me on an elevator, on the subway--as if my skin(as you say color) is a sign of criminality!
Moonsigns: I don't think u got a_womon's points!
She really only made two: (1) If you don't address black folks' barriers as it regards education then you wont ever "get it"! (I agree. Because, implicity, if you don't address their barriers you are arguing that one's life chances are determined by the individuals efforts. This reasoning is demonstrated when u talk about the US illustrustrious standards and how the US' morals and values have depreciated...the US' past and present smack of racism and jingoism. In addition, the studies I've cut and pasted demonstrates that segregation, the american past you speak of, is ever present...regards of how u equip your children, if they turn out to be poor, they will be underserved because of their race and class. Of course, these issues transcend race and class, but that fact doesn't rule out/or change the fact that blacks and latinos particularly are discriminated against).
(2) She believed your comments were racist, because you made criminality implicit to black people.
Lambd and I must also be stupid, because we both believed that your comments SOUNDED racist! Now, you stated that that was not what u meant, and that delinquency is not inherent to any racial group...if you're lying...only GOD knows! I'm not a mind reader!
In General: You have to admit that your posts, as is anyones, is liable to multiple interpretations. And considering the phrasing of your post, it is reasonable, not stupid, to believe your comments were racist...AGAIN, you can't limit this to your "race," because if a black person meant what you seemed to say, that black person would also be stereotyping! So in this case, being black doesn't make what u say applaudable IF you were stereotyping black people! Whether you be black, asian, white person, stereotyping is wrong! You shouldn't all black folk think alike!
For example, Thomas Sowell, a black conservative, argues that african americans culture, in particular, not black people, is a detriment to their life chances...He is also wrong, as Bill Cosby was generally wrong, in my opinion and others!
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 112
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:09 pm: |
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miss wysteria,
You say that I don't have to challenge my arrogance because only black women are calling me out on it --who? You and A_womon? Two women who carry similiar beliefs about interracial unions. Ironically, you and A_womon are just as fiery as me when it comes to sharing opinions that you are passionate about. Very much a double-standard --but anyway.
I am in a relationship with one man, and will protect the integrity of this relationship. However, I refuse to fight with ANY woman for the affections of a man, or men in general. Sexism needs to be resolved in order to fight racism. Women, under this world patriarchal system, are socialized to believe they need to fight for mens approval. It's hard for women to break this cycle, but I believe it is neccessary for our own peace to do so. I love my husband, but I won't be defined by everything he is and is not, nor will I fight to keep him if he ever wants to leave. Men are not the end all to be all. When this entire conversation is completely naked, all it is, is a result of sexism.
You are confused by what you have felt for me initially (which was warmth) because you, for whatever reason, did not expect me to be as outspoken as you --or as forward. What you initially felt for me was your intution speaking to you regarding the truth about my nature. I would advocate for your rights, just as I would my own and deep in your being you know it, and have known that. You say you don't honor me and I don't honor you. Please speak for yourself. I do honor all women.
Now, if other women, other than A_womon are emailing you saying they don't like me and want me off the board, please tell them to post it here. I have no problem staying and I have no problem leaving. Just be honest. As quickly as I came, I will go.
Whoever wants me to go --just say the word!
I don't give any speeches, but I have shared what's in my heart. Some will agree, others won't, and some will remain indifferent. I'm not self-righteous, just striving to live a life of light. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 621
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:12 pm: |
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Wysteria,
Thank you for your comments they were much needed and Soooooooooooo LONG overdue!!!!!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 622
Registered: 05-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 01, 2004 - 11:19 pm: |
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And who has given you support other than Cynique??? and ABM moonsigns 2 people And even Lambd has kicked you to the curb, and told you to take ya show on the road! But of course you never hear the men diss you though, cause in your arrogance you think that all of them are like ABM! NOT.
HOW SOON CAN YOU LEAVE?? THAT'S MY VOTE! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:33 am: |
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Wastastar likes Moonsigns. tee-hee. Why don't you folks give it a rest. It would be different it you were accomplishing something by all of this one-ups-manship, but nobody's mind has been changed. It's just an exercise in futility. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 736
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:39 am: |
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cyn...how u gonna tell folk to stop, and still throw wood into the fire! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1183
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:43 am: |
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I dunno. But I did. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 623
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 01:22 am: |
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You don't know that cynique, you can only speak for yourself. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 624
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 01:26 am: |
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and you are wrong about no one's mind being changed, moonsigns mangaged to change miss_wysteria's mind about having liked her in the beginning. Lambd liked her in the beginning too. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 440
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 09:17 am: |
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A_woman, I still like Moonie. I like everybody. I'm one of those people who can't find it in my heart to dislike people...I think she's a racist, moonlovin' weirdo. I don't dislike her though. I do, however like the controversy she brings. Besides watchin' the two of you go at it makes my shorts tight. You could attack my family and I would still like you...I gotta shoot you in the face with all 2000 rounds of .40 calibre, hollow pointed ammunition I got in my closet...but I'll still come to your funeral with a suit on...I'd be drunk as hell and I'd probably have to piss on the casket, but I'd be there. I would be praying to God the whole time that someone at the funeral would look at me funny just one time, JUST ONE TIME, so that I could beat the hell out of them...But I'd be nice about it. Besides, now you got your patnah, Miss-hysterical, helpin' out. I don't mind one bit if the three of you continue beatin' the shyt out of each other with these brilliant arguments you bring. It is indeed entertaining. I'm not like Cynique. I love it! I wouldn't be mad if you and Histarikyl went over to the stringy head's house and pulled every racist hair from her cross-burnin', ni$$a lovin' head! I don't give a shiite one way or the other. What you need to do is go on over there and find out how in the hell could her husband continue to stay married to such a racist pig! Then come on back and tell me who's side I'm on, because I can't tell if I'm being totally sarcastic about this whole thing or not. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 113
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 09:56 am: |
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Yukio,
You're right, people have multiple interpretations. However, in asking the author, as you have done, I think any person with reasoning, especially with the clarification I provided, understands my point clearly --it's not racist. I know Lambd doesn't want to touch this. You asked for clarification --you, and how you asked, weren't attacking who I am. We found common ground by being willing to discuss the matter --not by becoming completely hysterical accusing one another of things we truly don't know. However, A_womon goes on a rampage about what kind of parent I am and what will happen to my offspring. That just isn't right. As you said (paraphrasing), "It's not what you say, but how you say it." I can understand how and why you felt that way. Thank you for asking for clarification. On the other hand, when a person with an admitted hate for the relationship I'm in, attacks everything about my parenthood and lifestyle, and then thinks they are going to try to be so innocent and ask questions (being fake), I'm not having it. Regardless of what I say and do, people who think like A_womon don't want anything but to fight with me because they have a fundamental belief my life/mate/love is not right. Until the A_womons of the world find peace within themselves and peace from sexism (and the racism it produces) women like myself will always be the scapegoat for their anger.
Now, I will apologize for offending the people who have a rational mind and are willing to accept my apology (regardless of gender). Yukio has made several good points as to why my words/phrasing could be offensive. I think that the people who are willing to look at both "sides of the fence" understand it was never my intent to be malicious or hurt anyones feelings.
My children, regardless of opinion, are identified in this world as being black. Being married interacially has allowed me to see, hear and be exposed to things that the average white person doesn't care about, and won't care about. God as my witness, I care about the success of all people and the equality for all people, especially my own. This is something I was raised to believe --it is not just something that happened because I married a black man. My children are a huge part of my life and I will do anything possible to ensure that they have successs, as well as the lives they touch, regardless of the race, culture, faith and traditions of people they encounter. This means that I must take responsibility for the manner in which I raise them. It is not one of paranoia, but of viligence. Otherwise, the DIS-ease of america and the world will infect their own hearts. I can't be afraid to tackle the good, bad and ugly that are within all people --to make it more personal, I won't be afraid to confront the good, bad and ugly within the white and black races.
The experiences I have had could make me equally hate both blacks and whites. However, the world doesn't need anymore haters and anymore violence, especially against women and the poor. That is why I speak of love, light, humaness and spirit so much. Some days are hard than others, but I will remain optimistic. When optimisim dies, so does the strength and vision of divine purpose.
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Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:40 am: |
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Apology accepted, Moonsigns.
I truly did like you and felt a lot of empathy for your children and your honest interjections of your opinions.
I think you are sincere in that you didn't INTENTIONALLY mean to insult anyone or imply that you will be a better mother than black mothers have traditionally been (which we naturally assume is because you're WHITE)--or that your "mixed" children will come out better than "real black children" just because they're mixed (Which has been part of White Supremacist Pathology for centuries and is often typical of WHITE MOTHERS with colored babies).
I still agree with A_WOMAN, but I also feel that people should be given the chance to explain and to show what's in their heart--and I'm not convinced that you're the enemy at all.
I also apologize for calling you out of your name, although I do agree with LAMBD that you have some issues and denial about this "arrogance" that seems to be smearing the board like a Snail's Goo whenever you post. STILL...the same could be said about me.
Finally...all in all....I really don't have anything against you and your black husband being together and trying to raise decent children. In fact, regardless of my personal opinions about such unions in the U.S. and about your "idealism" regarding race, color and black men's motives....I still feel compelled to support you and to give you the benefit of the doubt, mainly because I don't want to support PREJUDICE by helping to tear down the self-esteem and "belonging" of your colored children or your contribution to our community, no matter how much your presence makes me feel "betrayed", "devalued" and is a constant reminder of it--because you're WHITE and therefore a SYMBOL of that history.
As we know...Black women are OPPRESSED...White women are SUPPRESSED.
There-in lies all the difference in the world.
Let's all please move on and focus on the issue raised (which---I won't be back to post, I ONLY surf the board)...and let's try to have understanding and compassion for each other.
I hope that the black women here don't have to feel anymore "talked down to" and "disrespected" in a VENUE that is made possible by their presence and support...anymore than they already have been.
My sister.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 441
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 11:26 am: |
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That was really, really cool Wysteria. By the way, I love your name. No disrespect, I always try to find different ways to spell peoples usernames on this site...Anyway, I thought your post was cool. I'm bout to vote on it right now.
Please peep in again, often. You came out with some serious fire and then turned it down when you felt like you should give ole paleface a chance...I like that. Ole paleface, you should say something meaningful now, because her post might keep that sign off the door. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 625
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 11:38 am: |
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Miss_wysteria,
I'm so sorry to disagree, but as long as moonsigns continues to attempt to instruct black people on "how to be black" she and I will forever lock horns. My dislike for her "transcends race", I just plain don't like her and she don't ever have to like me, I AM FINE WITH THAT. But if she steps to me with some BS she is going to get it back to the NTH power!! I will continue to bring correction to her. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 996
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:16 pm: |
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Oh LAWD where o where do I begin...? |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 116
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:35 pm: |
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Miss wysteria,
I don't think of you as arrogant, or as myself as arrogant, just confident. If I had no humility, or you had no humility, I would consider the strength of our natures to be arrogant --however, we both have proved this theory wrong.
I appreciate that we can meet on a common ground and that you understand my truest heart --I know that you always did. I think it is beneficial for women to dialogue like this. Race is a very touchy subject for black women and white women. Black women need their voice to be heard, white women need to listen. Both races of women have to be willing to understand the dynamics of oppression and work to change these things, not just for us, but for all women. What has happened mostly in my experience is that I will be the scapegoat for the pain some women have felt, however, most have never wanted to move beyong that point. Like I said, when hope dies, so does the strength and vision for divine purpose. And we all have a divine purpose. I can be here and chat, not because I'm white, but because I am willing to accept that white supremacy has hurt millions of women. However, I want to be part of the solution, not the problem. When people can't talk, shyt just stews and women are the ones who suffer --as we fight for the approval of men who aren't taking the lead in reconcilation. You have every right to feel what you feel, as do other black women. However, when we all want to be free to love, live and worship as we choose (all women want this), we must be willing to identify inner sexism, outer sexism and all the unGodly repercussions it has caused, especially for women of color. I have opened myself to you and hoping that in meeting in this venue you will come to find peace for the things you have been made to suffer unjustly simply for being the woman God created you --from the emotional, spiritual, and physical. While there are white women who wouldn't give a shyt, please know that there are ones that do. Like I said, I would advocate for your rights just as I would for my own. Sisterhood transcends race. At the same time I absolutely respect your right to honor, gather, and strengthen your respected community. All people should have a sense of community, tradition and culture that is respected, nurtured and celebrated. While I am white and a "symbol" of history, that is not what I am to God. I hope you will have seen the God in me as well. We are all human. Just as you fight to be seen as human, I do too. I accept your apology and will pray for your mental and spiritual emancipation from the pain caused by the things you have been made to endure.
It may take time, but as I said, love always wins --it's divine principle. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1184
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:48 pm: |
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Yes, Cynique was off-base. Especially since she, herself, has been known to go on and on and on about other subjects. I guess I was just wishing that there had been more dialogue and less diatribe. Since everybody's making up, I'll add my apology to the mix and join the group hug. Squish. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 627
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
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We shall see... |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 628
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 01:03 pm: |
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Miss Wysteria,
I do hope that you will drop in again and add your voice to other threads. I would love to hear some of your views on other topics. Your voice adds a different flavor, not because of what you said (although I must admit I was smiling ) but the manner in which you said it. And I'm not speaking about matters of race alone but the state of affairs in our community.
So I hope you will reconsider leaving for good, and drop in whenever it pleases you!
Peace. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 442
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 01:08 pm: |
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What happened to the fight? Just as fast as it reared its ugly head... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 997
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 02:52 pm: |
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Oh no! This THANG ain't HARDLY over...
WHITE = RACIST?
Yukio make some compelling points about what affects the interpretation of Moonsigns words. I, however, don't believe that she should be excluded from expressing her TRUE/HONEST views about a real situation that exist with the Black community that she herself, by way of her own parenthood, might be and/or are directly being made to endure. Because the truth is A LOT of Blacks are struggling as she cited. Does her meekly avoiding stating such make the conditions any less real? No.
I think what Yukio mentioned that the "identity" of the speaker is important to interpreting what they mean is crucial here. See, I expect that it hardly matter for many of us HOW Moonsigns says much of anything that pertains to race around here. I think her being White is such an indelible part of how many of us view what she says, she would likely have to qualify/explain/euphemize EVERYTHING she posted. And after all the self-editing, there will be nothing left for her to say (of course, I imagine that THAT would in fact be what some of us want).
Now, if I were going to preach some politically correct mantra at Moonsigns (which I really wouldn't), I might say perhaps her views should be more balanced to reflect more 'positive' elements of African American culture/history. Perhaps then she might appear less like one of the legion of Whites who enjoy citing our many ills. Mind you, I personally don't require such backslapping because I am blessed to know the truth of how wondrous Black people are. But some of the rest of us might need to hear it.
But I'd bet my right arm that A LOT of them (hell! a lot of US) have/would express comments that are wholly IDENTICAL to what Moonsigns said. Yes, there are all kinds of Black parents who have all kinds of thoughts about raising their kids. But I agree with Moonsigns that were she Black, her comments would have HARDLY registered a blip on our "racism meters". Thus, I for one DON'T think that Moonsigns should have apologized because I did not find her comments to be racist.
Nonetheless, I respect the fact that she thought enuff of the thoughts/feelings of others to make that gesture. That says A LOT about her. And how we respond to her going forward will says A LOT about us.
STEREOTYPES AND JEFFREY DAHMER
To me, for us to say here that someone is wrong because they are using stereotypes is laughably convenient. Because we deal stereotypes around in here about Black men, Black women, White men, White women, old, young, Democrats, Republicans, Americans, Africans, foreigners, straights/gays/others, etc. like there's a clearance sale going on them or something.
And how many White serial killers (100) are there in comparison to the number of brothers who are/have done prison time (+1,000,000)? Where the sense of scale/proportion? See. Some of this kind of intellectual sophistry just doesn’t do any of us any good. It mares the way to any productive (hell! even rational) discussion.
I do, however, think that referring to White children as possibly becoming "SELF-HATING Brats of Confusion" is both relevant...and funny! HAHA!
PS: Moonsigns, I don't think you'll EVER see anything even REMOTELY close to a "Blacks Only" sign anywhere around here. Because everything I can glean about Troy suggests he is FAR too smart/classy to even suggest doing something as senseless/tacky as that. Some of the rest of us, however, I don't know...<?> |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 998
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:02 pm: |
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All,
See. I told yawl before this Moonsigns chick weren't no punk.
Dat's why dat brothah can't shake her pale tail loose. He told me he was trynah leave. Buttah chick dis stubborn would probably kill'em as he walked out the door. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 630
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:28 pm: |
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Maybe you should think about changing your screen name to IBM (IGNORANT BLACK MALE) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1000
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:34 pm: |
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A_womon,
"Sticks and stones may break my bones but c@@c#ie will always heal me." |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1001
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:40 pm: |
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A_womon,
You know? Now that you mention it, IBM may indeed be apropos: "Intelligent Black Man"!
HAHA! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 631
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:45 pm: |
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HAH! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1002
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:52 pm: |
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Miss_wysteria,
I find it interesting you would say that you have received email complaints about Moonsigns. Because I recall having read similar sentiment expressed about ANOTHER former frequenter of this site. And, ironically, that woman was Black.
Bias is bias. And a hater will ALWAYS find someone(thing) ELSE to hate. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1003
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:55 pm: |
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Oh. And if I recall correctly, our friendly-neighborhood gen-X'er A_womon was partly the cause of THAT mess as well. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 03:59 pm: |
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Okay, you know what, I should not have even done that. I let a stray thought take control of my fingers.
A_womon please ignore my last post. I tried to delete it myself, but I couldn't.
I am sorry. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1006
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 05:12 pm: |
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Lambd,
It's amazing how drastically things changed here between Miss_wysteria and Moonsigns. At this emotional burnrate, by this time next week, the two of them will have left their men, become lesbian lovers and move in together into a funky/cozy San Francisco apartment. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 118
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 05:44 pm: |
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Abm,
I know you are joking around, but I have to let you know --my man knows I will never go to jail for ANY dyck, literally and figuratively. If he wants to leave, so be it. I may cry and feel sorry for myself a bit, however, I'll be da*ned if I lose my freedom for some man! I care about myself more than I will any man!
And about the lesbian stuff --wishful thinking Abm! This chick here is "strictly dyckly"
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 737
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 06:58 pm: |
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Since moonsigns says she is not stereotyping black people there is no problem...
But if a black person said what she said and meant to stereotype black people, then that person would be WRONG!
abm, you should speak for yourself...I do not consciously stereotype folk, and if i'm told, then i will fix it...I consciously qualify what I state. In my opinion, when u rely on stereotypes then there is nothing to talk about, because according to your statement abm, it seems, everything is correct...if stereotyping is acceptable, then what is the basis for debate..how do we identify what is accurate and/or wrong?
It seems that we have lost the way...lets address A_womon's analysis:
I think it is disrespect to treat a_womon like her analysis had no points, no substance. As much as many of you have labeled a_womon a "hater," it is hard to find a moment when anyone has addressed her analysis...even with her venom and socalled "emotionalism," she has had a point--which was, as i read it, the need for folk to address the barriers that poor black children face as it regards education....I agree w/a_womon.
It seems to me that moonsigns, as usual, focuses on the individual--in this case her children! This is where the drama of her comments started...but if we look behind the drama, we see moonsigns discussing the down fall of american morals, values, etc...and her raising healthy children....but what do these children do w/o institutions fighting for viable and competitive educational curriculms and facilities....
The civil rights movement was not about integration, it was about desegregation...it was about changing institutions....black folk have always been intelligent, hard working, and innovative, but institutions prevented them from procuring wealth, not individuals!
And these institutions, moonsigns, are your glorious past of high american standards, and they are also many children of color present, according to the studies...
|
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 119
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 07:16 pm: |
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Yukio,
The point about people addressing "the barriers that poor black children face as it regards education." Very simple solution, complicated by the fact that all parties involved tend to be irresponsible in committing themselves to do the work to change.
The government needs to get their shyt together and ensure equal opportunity within the educational system and SOME parents need to get their shyt together.
Now, as far as how this will happen, I really don't know. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 632
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:06 pm: |
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Hey Yukio,
About a certain person, YOU WERE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT! FA SHO!! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 738
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:27 pm: |
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moonsigns: no disagreement, here concerning the final analysis. If only things were that simple... |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 121
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:51 pm: |
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Exactly Yukio. The solution is simple, getting people to work to change it is not. |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 8
Registered: 08-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 10:43 pm: |
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wow. a lot goes on up in here in a few days, huh?!
i gotta agree with miss wysteria and a_woman, as usual. isn't this a funny thing? we started out talking about closing the achievement gap between whites and af-am's in school, and somehow we also ended up having a debate about racism, interpretation and tone. i rest my case. words, as a rule, don't have lives of their own. they are infused, by the receiver, in addition to the giver of these words, with meaning. and we use our experience, our schemata, our baggage to interpret these words. then, language and culture are inextricably linked. if that weren't so, then a_woman and wysteria wouldn't have had to set moon straight.
language and academia: academia is a place of priviledge that poor people were not supposed to be entitled to. same thing with "standard english." who set the standard for standard english? rich white people. some of you (who shall remain nameless), have suggested that everybody should learn standard english so that they can assimilate and be successful.
the whole thing is, standard english is meant to SEGREGATE people, not to assimilate them! remember, moon, and others, that black people were purposefully not taught standard english for the specific purpose of making sure that they COULD NOT ASSIMILATE. we have two strikes against us: our skin color makes us stand a part from every one else, and our language makes us stand out, as well.
i don't think there are a lot of people who "refuse" to learn standard english. i think most people would learn it if they were given an adequite opportunity. but as soon as students get into the school system, they encounter this idea of language, and the gap begins to develop in elementary school, partially because of it. we don't necessarily speak standard english in our homes. the people who set the standard imply that their use of language is more "worthy" than that of others. and it has nothing to do with "the queen's english" any more. i live in london half of the year every year, and yu can believe that, even as an english professor, the british natives LAUGH at our interpretation of standard english.
for af-am's, this standard english is not, in most cases, tied to our experiences or our culture. quite the opposite. it has been a symbol of our oppression. so, when we use standard english, and, mainly, when we interpret it when used by white people, we come up with all kinds interpretations, some that the giver of the words meant, some that he meant but didn't want us to know, etc.
and, the thing is, we know our history, and we know YOURS, as white people, and we don't trust you. at all. even in what you say. especially in what you say. so there's a barrier right there. plus we know what our position, socially, has been, and know that, in your use of language, you are furthering your own value system while, sometimes inadvertantly but sometimes purposefully, undermining our own.
moon (ironic name, as many of her comments come off like she lives there rather than here on planet earth) makes comments about raising her children and somehow offends the af-am readers on this board. because OUR experience shades our interpretation of HER words. later, moon ties together language and the concept of morality and values. once again, this is a jugdement that is informed by HER culture and HER experience. the implication seems to be that teaching standard english and raising kids that do not end up in jail are somehow a. synonymous and b. morally correct.
the thing is, we can teach our students the "standard language," even if they will never speak it or hear it any where but in school, but we cannot give our students soomebody else's cultural experiences. no matter what, i am going to use my experiences to interpret what others say, and i am af-am. moon, and many of my white colleagues where i teach, uses her experiences to interpret what others say. and we have hours of discourse on these view topics and can't half understand each other and agree.
imagine what happens in a classroom, with text books that are written, mainly, by european males, that use examples and analogies to explain new concepts that are tied to their cultural experiences. imagine what happens when students of color try to express learning of the informatin in these books? it's... sketchy. and none of it has a thing t odo with intelligence so much as language and experience. but there are some strategies that we as a community and as parents and teachers can do to help our students to be successful....
and the thing about ebonics is... let me save that stuff for another entry.
ps i wish i had folks like a-woman and wysteria teachinig in the classrooms next to mine! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 739
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 11:20 pm: |
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bf:
"the implication seems to be that teaching standard english and raising kids that do not end up in jail are somehow a. synonymous and b. morally correct."
Insightful!
As a tool/weapon within a colonial/racialized space "standard english" is a must, but never to the point where we assimilate...as i said, above, thats cultural suicide! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 633
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 11:40 pm: |
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Bluefreezy says:
ps i wish i had folks like a-woman and wysteria teachinig in the classrooms next to mine!
a_womon says:
Thank you! I would be honored to be counted as your peer anytime!!!
Though I don't ever mind being the lone voice of descent on a topic most days, how REFRESHING to hear from someone like yourself on matters of race and teaching and the often obscure world of American "standard" english!!
Bluefreezy, I would love to hear your thoughts on this:
what kind of thinking/dynamics do you suppose come into play when SOME black people, even in this limited arena, continually bow and scrape, seek to garner the approval of, and even go way above and beyond the call of duty, to defend a white person who insults openly and blatantly black, mothers, black children, and black men? What would cause a black male to do this, even at the expense of further impugning the reputation of and furthering stereotypes of his own black brothers who continually suffer at the hands of a justice system so unequally weighted against them, and even going so far as to negate the backhanded apology bY sayin that IT WASNT NECESSARY!!(which by the way, was only given when it looked like the odds were stacked against her to suit her own purposes)
What causes SOME black women to overlook, such blatant racism?(oh, I forgot, she explained that she didn't MEAN it THAT way, so it's alright that she said it??!!) SOME of them seem to say, "oh its ok to walk into my home, talk trash about me and my mother, litter it with trash(Y and you think covert)enuendo and THEN tell me how lucky I am that you choose to grace my home with your presence, proceed to instruct me on how to clean up your mess and on what type of behavior is acceptable in MY home--so long as you befriend me and give me your approval, its ok sweetie." I ask WHY are back people always bending over backward not to be viewed (by whom is unclear to me)as prejudiced, especially when they are not given the same basic RESPECT!
AND THEN the offending party TRIES to hide behind GOD,and spirituality and their marvelous inner stregnth to justify their actions. My question then becomes, where does all that GOD given spirituality go right before she launches her diatribe?
Bluefreezy, can you PLEASE offer any insights into WHY ANY black person would behave this way, because I can't wrap my mind around, nor can I accept this type of behavior/justification. If that makes me in the mind of SOME irrational--THANK GOD for irrationality!!!
I'm so glad you are here! I'M SMILIN !!!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1007
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:40 am: |
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Moonsigns,
Moonsigns says: "I'll be da*ned if I lose my freedom for some man!"
ABM says: Yeah. I'll bet a lot of chicks who are doing time for offing their husbands had previously said similar things.
Moonsigns says: "This chick here is "strictly dyckly."
ABM says: Kewl! But hey, I haven't given Miss_wysteria the ol' crotch check. So who knows? Maybe 'she' can accommodate you in 'that' regard.
BTW: WE, you, me, Yukio, A_womon, etc. ARE the government. Thus, it is all of us who've got to get our shyt together if we are all going to make it.
Yukio,
We see what we want to see and hear what we want to hear. In my view, A LOT of what we ALL deal around here is stereotypical prejudging of some sort. Only difference is we Black foks are so accustomed to calling out others dirt, we conveniently ignore the fact that we often sweep our own under the rug. But if you think that you don't do stereotyping, that's cool. I ain't out to prove ANYTHING pertaining to what you think you are (or 'are not' for that matter).
And I did not say/infer/imply that stereotyping was appropriate. I simply said it is something we all engaging in. In fact, making prejudgements of others is so endemic to our culture that it is virtually involuntary.
Now regarding A_womon's analysis:
Since you are her self-appointed mouthpiece, I shall ask you what I asked her (that, BTW, she STILL has refuse to even answer): WHAT DO WE DO? I have expressed my views about what must be done. I got the impression that some of you differed, which is fine. I am though disappointed that no one else really tried to proffer any solutions.
For clarification and to avoid redundancy, I'll ask you and whoever else is interested to read/re-read my prior posts under this topic.
Look, if you are a poor Black kid coming up in the hood, it is going to be more difficult for you to excel academically than it would a White/rich kid. And ain't no educational/social program, no matter how clever/earnest, is going to balance the odds (and even if they could, many of us will avoid using them). Because ain't no one (Black/White) is especially interested in spending the additional time/effort/money.
So the ONLY way those kids are going to break even is to chose on their own to work harder than their White/affluent peers. That has ALWAYS been the burden of the African American in this country. And, until we own, operate and manage more of the world's centers of commerce, education, science/technology, media, etc. that will CONTINUE to be the case.
I leave it for you and others to decide for yourselves whether what A_womon does is 'hate'. Because I have pretty much spoken my peace on that.
Bluefreezy,
The history of the American school system, though interesting is yesteryear's news. WE ALL can improve our schools RIGHT NOW if WE all choose to. In fact, that is happening all over the country. So I don't think it helps to reverb a lot woebegone cant about how/why the 'system' dooms Black kids.
Real estate contracts, textbooks, the Constitution of the United States, Employment Agreements, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera are ALL written in some grade of "Standard English". Your students should be coldbustin' their @$$ reading/writing every chance they get. And they could get more of what they need if they turned of that rancid BET for Christ Sake!
So the idea that we could be having a conversation that in anyway equivocates on asserting the grave importance of garnering that skill defies all reason. This $#@+ ain't about "assimilation". As far as I'm concern, you can go f@#% a mofo "assimilation". It's about SURVIVAL.
Hey Black people. Newsflash: Don't trust White people! Moreover, don't trust most of the Black ones too! Instead, trust your own eyes and hears. Observe who manages to garner freedoms and opportunities and who don't. Those people often fall within very distinct patterns of behavior, starting with how they WRITE/SPEAK.
And all this stuff about the restrictions/intentions of "Standard English" don't mean diddly when somebody REALLY wants to have something for themselves.
Personal Story:
A_womon, recently said that I'll "never get" it? Heck, Baby Gurl I was born/raised in and near it: ghetto, fatherless, projects, food stamps, medicaid, roaches/rats, illiteracy, etc. But, with encouragement from mother/teachers/friends, I 'chose' to want to speak/write in a manner that would expand my opportunities.
And it wasn't easy. I chugged around with me dictionaries/thesauruses/spelling guides ALL THE TIME. I read grammar/composition books for leisure. I even listened to cassette tapes in public libraries about English, grammar, composition, rhetoric, essay/thesis, etc.
And I did most of that WITHOUT the urging of mother/teachers. In fact, I learned to LOVE building my command of English. And, yeah, I endured 'you sound White', 'brainiac', 'egghead', 'nerd', etc. jokes (though most of it was just youthful, goodnatured ribbing) as I was coming along. But that was kewl because when the time came around to take the SAT and to apply for college, I was the one who laughed hardest.
And that command of the written/spoken word has granted me unnumerable favors and advantages that I might never even thought possible when I was a kid.
Lastly, it's is profoundly ironic to me that a bunch of seemingly educated people can quibble over whether/how one can/should use "Standard English"...when HERE we are ALL mostly using "Standard English". Because the truth is, if we all lack command of "Standard English", it is improbable that we would even be having this discussion about..."Standard English".
A_womon,
One day you are going to grow up. And then you are going to be some kinda 'dangerous'. I hope I am still around to see that. Because I imagine that that will be a sight to see.
Cynique,
I guess would be an example of my tendancy to be "verbose", huh?
PS: The more I read all of this scapegoating and equivocating about why our kids can't read/write, the more I understand why they can't...read/write. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 637
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:09 am: |
|
"...I decided long ago
NEVER to walk in ANYONE'S shadow
If I fail if I succeed
At least I've lived as I BELIEVE
No matter what they take from me
They CANT take away MY DIGNITY..."
AT THE END OF THE DAY
IT IS WHAT IT IS!!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1008
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:42 am: |
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A_womon,
I don't know why should spin lyrics from that song (Do you?).
But I have ALWAYS found THAT song to be one of the dumbest ever! Anyone who's ever succeeded has at some point and to some degree walked in the "shadow" of another.
Oh, and what the f@#$ is that trite "IT IS WHAT IT IS" you use anyway? It reminds me of some crap kids say in high school when they are trying to pretend that they are kewl. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 638
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:15 am: |
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"...I believe the children are our future
treat them well and let them lead the way
show them all the beauty they possess inside
give them a SENSE OF PRIDE to make it easier
Let the children's laughter remind us of how
We used to be..."
AT THE END OF THE DAY
IT IS WHAT IT IS!
HAH! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 445
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:32 am: |
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You and A_woman need to kiss and make up. I'll call old Sarge up and tell him to get a big hefty bag and huge piece of cardboard. He can put "It is what it is" and that word Abm uses, "kewl" in the trash bag and he can write, "Coloreds Only" on the cardboard and hang it on the door. That way
we can be segregated and ignore another point of view, thus splicing our already skewed peripheral even further, and we can free ourselves from two of the idiotic diatribes that keep showing up on this site! Caarrreeyyyyyy! I don't give a $hiite how much A_woman likes Dr. Bluefreezy, but if Blue bashes Biggie again, BigLamb's bashin' his brains! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 639
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 08:12 am: |
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Lambd,
You and A_woman need to kiss and make up.
NO!!!!
And since you are for freedom of speech and all, why don't you pay a visit to any KKK designed website and try instructing them on why their thinking is wrong and how they should change it to make the world a better place, and how it would benefit them to listen to your views on how their views are flawed and without merit cause you have a better way!
Go ahead, trip on over there and try it and see how much they embrace your azz and see if ANY of them offer a defense for YOUR right to be there! Come back and let me know what kind of reception you got.
HAH! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 640
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 08:36 am: |
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and Lambd,
Bluefreezy aint a man, though for the sake of balance, I wish she were. Then we would have had a rare treat, a black man vigorously AND unapologetically defending the right of a black womAn to express her point of view just as freely as anyone else around here.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 123
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 09:38 am: |
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Blue,
I know what happens when all these differences aren't appreciated. My mother is an educator, as is one of my syblings, as well as many of my extended family members. They also have diverse careers within education. The stories I hear are endless. Are there problems with public/private education? Sure. Are there problems with the way people parent nowadays? Sure.
I look at the stories similiar to the one Abm shared and what I find is a common denominator, choice and strong, strong parenting! I grew up in a diverse, middle class area. The schools are pretty good around here. I don't know what it is like to struggle in that respect (poor, rats, fatherless etc.), however, I knew kids who did, and they made the decision to rise above their circumstance. Some have gone on to have incredibly successful lives. Then there are the kids who didn't take the opportunity and are still doing nothing with their lives --the same as their parents. Then there are those who didn't have the strong parenting, but the strong will, and still made it. As in Abm's story, again the common denominator is choice, and the strength of the family members that encouraged him and required he live by a higher standard. There is proof it can be done. The situation may not be fair, I'm not debating that, but I know it can be done.
My mother works in a nice school that is fully equipped to teach it's students. The problem they have is that the rich kids (regardless of race) have too many choices (are spoiled) and the poor kids (regardless of race) aren't sent to school fed, dressed properly and don't have a decent/safe environment to go home to. Either way, the teacher is screwed, then blamed for the irresponsibility of the parent/(s). Teachers could do their job if parents did their job.
There are many, many more opportunities educationally, than ever before. I totally disagree with you that standard English is taught to seperate --back in the day, yes, now, no way! We have people coming to this country speaking hardly a lick of English and throwing up businesses every where we turn --and becoming very wealthy. Americans are lazy and consumers. We are much more into commercialism and being entertained, than we are education. It sucks, but true. If we cared so much, children wouldn't be so dam* out of control. Unfortunately, a majority of parents are out of control (regardless of race) and in turn, producing some of the laziest, fattest, most selfish and brainwashed youth. We poison them in almost every way possible and then want to point the finger at someone else --how shameful! It is a shame, because America has so much opportunity, yet, people aren't succeeding. Seems to be in the parenting.
You're right, I'm completely about doing the "right thing". Everything, in my opinion, is interconnected --from language, to vision, to culture, to faith. I ensure my kids aren't going to be fu*k ups and that means I teach them how to respect people, teach them to effectively communicate and teach them the value of their freedom to do so. BTW, this has nothing to do with being a white woman either. My girlfriends who are black and married to black men think the same way I do. It's about wanting the best for your children and being responsible enough to see your plan of action through --not sitting around waiting and thinking somebody else is, or should do it for you.
On a side note, I agree that the public schools, schools in general, teach history from a euro perspective, which it shouldn't be. Personal story --within the school district we belong to, my husband and I have taken issue to how the 4th grade curriculum teaches about slavery. We got involved with people who develop the curriculum and are working to change it. It is a long process and something worthwhile to us. It isn't the easiest thing to (lots of loopholes), however, it is possible to change such things. We can take about this stuff, but I want to know who has the answers and is willing to work for it. To me, if a mother/father can do all the calling and "checking around" to find out how their son/daughter can win the latest concert tickets to see Usher, Britney Spears, Beyonce, or any other favorite "entertainer" they have, they sure enough can do some "checking around" to find out how to work to change the curriculum.
For the parents who are earnestly trying to improve the lives of their children despite their circumstances, I commend them. I have respect for them. But the parents who bytch and provide no structure for their offspring, they can stick it -- I don't want to hear their whiny bs! |
Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 09:49 am: |
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ABM...your desire has been to hurt me.
You have.
You've brought me to tears and hurt me deeply.
You've won.
So now you can stop mentioning my name and stop insulting me.
God bless and goodbye.
|
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 641
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:20 am: |
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sorry to see you go miss W. But I truly understand. I couldn't sleep last night, I woke up deeply sad today. I am still very sad, disappointed, and disillusioned. And I can't shake this feeling either. This thread has left me with many many questions that I probably will never get answered here.
God bless you too. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 446
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:01 pm: |
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You can't possibly be crying about the crap that is spouted here, Wysteria. Gimme a break! Sheesh! You people are taking yourselves way too seriously. Abm didn't meant to hurt your feelings and your feelings shouldn't be hurt. A_woman, I love you to death, but you are way to dramatic. There is no way you should lose sleep over anything said in this forum. I know I'm not. Nothing, either here or on a KKK board can possibly be said that can effect me in any negative way. We already know that Moonsigns is a closet racist, you don't hide the fact that you are racist. BlueFreezy, be he man or be he woman, has spouted some racist things, too. Lawd knows I got some racist bones in my body. But too let that get in the way of free-flowing dialogue between intelligent people is nonsense. And to let it effect your sleep or make you cry is just foolish. Now I am not trying to insult you in any way shape or form. I like you and I enjoy reading your posts more than any others on the board because of your fiery spirit and iron backbone, but don't start up with this sensitive crap, now. |
Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:20 pm: |
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LAMB, I was referring to the relationship that ABM and I have ....AWAY....from this board as "friends".
And to his comment about me having a "dick". And to his overall snideness and his desire to pit me against this white girl (who really has no value or importance to me), so that he can root for HER and continue with his unexplained and sudden nastiness towards me, which--because I adored him so much--most definitely hurts, and very deeply at that, especially since there has been no explanation for it.
I could give a shit about the comments/discussions on this message board.
ABM knows where I'm coming from, and before he throws anymore BLOWS...I just wanted to give him the satisfaction of knowing that he has already hurt me just as he intended and there's no need for further interaction between the two of us.
I'm mad at myself, quite frankly, for continuing to come back and lurk here, when I know that I shouldn't be here.
And as for A_Woman feeling what SHE FEELS...and being sad/confused/disillusioned....I totally understand what she's saying, and all I have to say is TRUST what you feel, A_Womon, recognize the truth in it and be aware from now on....just how things really stand.
Don't talk about it. Don't obssess over it. Just know it and DETACH yourself.
Save your loyalty and your defense for yourself--because they're not worth it...and how many centuries now have they been SELLING out and selling us?
I know exactly what you felt.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 642
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:30 pm: |
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Lambd, OUCH! I think I just got spanked--again!!
You say I am too dramatic SO WHAT? Maybe I'm destined to be an actress!
and SOME of the things said on this thread BY black males. HAVE left me disillusioned and CONFUSED.
On the other hand, maybe you're right. ONE person's negative thoughts on a board, albeit a public one, should not color my images of other STRONG BLACK MEN who DO NOT share the views of a black male expressed on this board. ALthough I wish they would show up and tell me this themselves.
And you may also be right that a black male has the right to express his views the way he wants. That aint how the men in my world see things. I guess I lost perspective for a second. These are DEFINITELY not the views of the men who are in my world. So why should I let the anonymous opinions of an unknown someone affect me? hmmmmmmmmm... Yes, Lambd, I see your point.
BUT Please don't try to tell me how to feel though.I can be sensitive if I feel like it!
And if people's views/black males views,on this board cause me grief, I have a right to express that grief without you trying to make me feel there is something wrong with it.
aND just cause I said you are right this time, don't think you are going to make a habit of bossin me around!!!!
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 643
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:43 pm: |
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Oh and let me dispell another myth on this board that if a black person had used the racial stereotypes that moonsigns did, they would get a pass...
Has everyone suddenly forgotten that when MR BILL COSBY hurled epithets that were very similar, WE DID NOT GIVE HIM A PASS. I believe MR Cosby is black, NO? So much for that lame excuse! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 448
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:54 pm: |
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Cosby didn't get a pass and neither will Moonie! Reread your posts, sweetheart. I was the first to call her on it I believe. Furthermore, I will continue to boss you around because I have it like that and SOMEBODY has to. IT MAY AS WELL BE ME!!!!!!! If you don't like it, do something about it, Youngun!
Wysteria: Accept my apologies. I was out of line. I didn't know you were talking about you and Abm's relationship outside of the site. I should have minded my own business and shut the hell up. I'm sorry for that. You can go back and finish crying now.
Back to A_woman: I still got ya back most of the time whether you like it or not. I won't have anyone silenced here, though. I don't believe in it. More than once I have been edited here, I don't like it but I continue to roll. Free speech is just what it is. You of all people know that. I'm with you on everything else up to that point...You may speak. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1198
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:24 pm: |
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Oh no! Could it be true? Are Miss Wysteria and Tall Girl and Snake Girl and Passion and "you-know-who" one and the same???? I should've suspected when she subjected me to that long lecture about the term "African" American in another post. I was right the first time when I called her "Miss Hysteria." |
Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 11
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:26 pm: |
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Well, LAMBD, I've been in your strong Pythonic arms--so I would LOOVE to be bossed around by your fine ass.
A-Womon and Cynique don't know what a treat they're in for.
(Wink)
He's cuddly, tall, chocolate and puppy-eyed ladies. And SOOOOOO strong and warm fleshed like a baby boy after you bathe and dry him off.
Uhm.
I love LAMBD.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 451
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:40 pm: |
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Yeah, CEE-Cee, I suspected a couple of posts back. Wysteria kind of reminded me of Tall Girl in the beginning, but I wasn't sure. The Tall Girl username threw me off of Wysteria's scent for a minute but the crying thing was what pinned it down for me.
Thanks for all the compliments Tall One. That last part about it being a job for a Queen was a total give-away. I would never have blown your cover, though. As far as you loving me, baby, I could see it in your eyes the whole time.
Cynique: I called her "Hysterical" long before you so I get credit for the name change.
QueenTallGirl: You'd be surprised at the nice things my woman says about you in private. She's not so bad. And A_woman is also my inspiration, whether she likes it or not. She's young and fiery, like you. She doesn't realize it, but she needs someone to keep her straight. Carey has been MIA.
When you come back to the East Coast, you realize you'll have to do as I say. Heheheh!!! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 741
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:42 pm: |
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abm:
first:
"To me, for us to say here that someone is wrong because they are using stereotypes is laughably convenient."
second:
"And I did not say/infer/imply that stereotyping was appropriate. I simply said it is something we all engaging in."
SOunds like an inference to me, but I'm no mind reader...so if u say that is the case, then it is the case.
At any rate, to suggest that we engage in stereotyping is questionable, for I would argue that we generalize rather than stereotype. In my exchanges, if I think a person is "engaging in stereotypes" then I'll call them on it, as others have done to me...and I have respectfully nuanced my analysis.
In your role as an affirmative action enforcer(for moonsigns), you virtually remove moonsigns from debate and simultaneosly affirm her behavior, whether it be racist or not.
She should be taken to task like everyone else. Let her defend her self. Or agree with her analysis and defend her ideas, but you're being an ambassador and she seems to have free reign, here.
When it was suggested that her comments were racist, she sought to clear the air...and thats all to the good. This is how it has always been. If folk question you, you clear things up...so let her do her thing...Ironically, as much as you suggest that she is holding her own, I haven't really been able to determine so, because you and others swiftly save her by telling her adversaries that they are haters or overreacting.
I've already answered your question:Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:08 pm:
"I liked what the amistad academy did, which was to raise the standards of math, english, etc to the state requirements..Both parents and students signed a contract of responsibility. For example, parents signed their children home work...and if something wasn't done...parents and student were responsible. Also, the school tested students every six weeks to determine improvements, problem areas, etc...and then alter the class to the needs of the students. Every 6months, they took a state exam, so that by the time students took the state example, they were already prepared and familar w/test taking....Also, students were required to read at home. Also, the students classes ended at 5:15 instead of 3pm....
In general, I think all parties need to be more responsible...parents, children, and the schools...."
In general, my point was that all involved must become more responsible.
Concerning your "ironic" comment:
"Lastly, it's is profoundly ironic to me that a bunch of seemingly educated people can quibble over whether/how one can/should use "Standard English"..."
That is a mischaracterization of this discussion...the thread is called "closing the gap"! NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT BLACK FOLK SHOULDN'T USE STANDARD ENGLISH!
ABM and ALL:
FInally, these anecdotes are nice. I have a happy one against all story too! But I'll never use a horatio algiers story as a panacea for the irresponsibility of private organizations, government, public school curriculms, parents, children, etc...All must be responsible...there are many stories that point to the value of will and self-determination, but i'm sure there are just as many as those who worked hard and have not had as much success...
There are students who graduate and they're not competitive! A friend of mine who had a A- average in h.s was not able to compete w/ students w/lower averages...she said that they had taken classes that weren't offered at her school...read books that she didn't read...has writing skills that she didn't have...but she still had an A- average in h.s...they told this woman that she is bright, and she is, but they held her to lower standards....unlike moonsigns, for example, they weren't knowledgeable about education to the degree that they would know to ask questions about the schools curriculm...they just knew she went to school, received good grades, etc....they went to parent teachers night...and received good reports, etc...
Anyways, you guys love to tell these cute anecdotes, but don't want to look at the big picture...read the damn reports! Don't accept them, but question them like anything else, but at least base opinions on some evidence(though one should also listen to their heart). |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1199
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:44 pm: |
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Oh-oh. Somebody just got punked! I can't figure out whether it was Lambd, or Abm. (Why does the phrase "menage a trois" keep running through my mind. Wheeeeeee!) |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 452
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:50 pm: |
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How could I have possible gotten punked, Cynique?
My name wasn't even mentioned. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 742
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 01:50 pm: |
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I should have said, "unlike moonsigns, for example, her parents weren't knowledgeable about education to the degree that..." |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 644
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:24 pm: |
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Miss W
I gotcha! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1200
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:24 pm: |
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I assume you are familiar with the MTV program entitled "Punked," Lambd. I used that term because you were participating in a thread where you were misled by Miss Hysteria - for a minute. And, you know, I wondered why Abm didn't have a lot of suggestive remarks to make in response to "tall girl's" thread detailing her chocolate-city encounter with you. Now I know. Man! Somebody call me a vendor. You can't tell the players without a score card! Or should that be "playas." |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 126
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:37 pm: |
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I have read the archives a bit and her writing style is easily recognizable. When I read her first post to me, I had an inkling that, that is who I was chatin' with (these many identities rolled into one). It is good to have confirmation of what my intuition told me from the jump.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 645
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:37 pm: |
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Ms W! I must admit that someone else on this board told me who you were on your first answer to moonsigns, I thought you were sisg, though, you sounded more like her.
I don't care, we had our clashes but your thoughts on race and things match mine pretty closely! I wish you would have displayed more of this side of you on the boards and that I had not allowed other people's view and our fiery head on collisions to make to jump to conclusions about who you might be.
I like this side of you! And I even understand your saavy ways of getting publicity via this board! You are indeed a VERY SAAVY business woman!
Isn't funny how you can misjudge people? I may not use your tactics, but I sure have learned some things that will help me once my deal is finalized with certain people. YES I am getting closer and you will ALL be shocked!!
Anyway, I am GLAD that you crashed the gates this time! I am SMILING! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 646
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:42 pm: |
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AND I find it so odd that on an AA board, that the views, rantings, and racists ramblings of a white girl are tolerated and accepted here, and yet you were not honored in the same way when you tried to express your views.
Please accept my apologies for taking a one dimensional view of you!
But....I don't apologize for the clashes we had...That ISH was FUNNEEEE AS HELL !! I wish it was still on here so we could have some more laughs!!!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 647
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 02:45 pm: |
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In your role as an affirmative action enforcer(for moonsigns), you virtually remove moonsigns from debate and simultaneosly affirm her behavior, whether it be racist or not.
She should be taken to task like everyone else. Let her defend her self. Or agree with her analysis and defend her ideas, but you're being an ambassador and she seems to have free reign, here.
AMEN YUKIO!!!!!!
I wondered why ABM would call you my mouthpiece when that is ALL he has been doing for moonsigns since she landed here!! HOW odd! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 649
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:03 pm: |
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Concerning your "ironic" comment:
"Lastly, it's is profoundly ironic to me that a bunch of seemingly educated people can quibble over whether/how one can/should use "Standard English"..."
That is a mischaracterization of this discussion...the thread is called "closing the gap"! NO ONE IS ARGUING THAT BLACK FOLK SHOULDN'T USE STANDARD ENGLISH!
Right AGAIN YUKIO
ABM and Moonsigns were the only ones screaming that the discussion was about promoting illiteracy or making excuses for black youths not to achieve through their VERY HARD and CONSISTANT work ehics. They were the ones who continued to imply that it was laziness and not being motivated to learn that was causing the learning gap. BECAUSE both refused to read and see that the conversation has ALWAYS been about the disparities in cirriculum and other communal issues that cause Black childred, who DO STUDY hard to continue to have problems with so called standard english! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1009
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:09 pm: |
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Isn't it GREAT to watch Black foks who have a strong command of..."Standard English"?
It makes me feel so good I can justabout BURST! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1010
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:12 pm: |
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Lambd,
HAHA!
Man. Do you TRY to say what you say? Or is it part of some stran of epilepsy? |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 453
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:30 pm: |
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A_woman: Why do you think Abm took that point of view during the discussion? Do you not think that is the way he truly feels? Or do you think there was some ulterior motives for his arguments?
Cynique:You have me totally at odds. I have no idea what you are talking about. I guess I must still be getting 'punk'd', cuz I am lost as far as trying to figure out what got me 'punk'd'. I guess being silent is equal to being ignorant. If that is the case then I am an ignorant MF. However, how I see things clearly differ from how you seem to view them. I think you are trying to find fault where there is none and that is fine by me. I still stand where I stand and therfore it is what it is. I find no fault in you because you found it necessary to 'out' someone, if that's what makes you happy, fine. A_woman is crazy but she's also very much right in everything she has stated thus far. Moonie said some racist shytt. She shouldn't have said it, but she did. Wysterical is now hysterical because Abm said something he probably shouldn't have said. You think I got punk'd because I didn't say something you think I should have said. You pop in and out and say things about Viggo you shouldn't say...but you do. I say a whole lot of things that I shouldn't say but I say them anyway because I don't care. I don't apologize either...Except to Snake Eyes, because she's tall and warm and busty and smart. Sorry again KB for gettin' in ya beezwax. Never happen again. And if you punk'd me, so be it. I'm still gonna boss you around when you get back in town.
I wanna stand up and be Black, dagnabbit! No more racist white chicks for me! They're all the same!
Put the sign up, Carey! Out with the Moon! In with the Sun! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1202
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:43 pm: |
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Why does it infuriate you so much when people express views that don't substantiate what you believe to be true, a-womon? This is a discussion board. Everybody should be welcome to offer their input whether you agree with it or not. In the past, I frequently got into it with Kola, but I never wanted her gone. We clashed because when it came to the subject of blackness, she was about exclusiveness instead of inclusiveness. You and I seldom agree on anything but I never hoped that you would get lost, and that's because I feel I can always learn something from my opponent. You can't mold the world over in your image. You don't have that power, so you might as well get used to people challenging your strong convictions. BTW, if Kola was been banned from this board it was because she had a personal vendetta with Thumper. But she's apparently free now to come and go under her various aliases. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1203
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:55 pm: |
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Good grief, Lambd. I wasn't trying to find fault. But when Kola comes out a bag, saying Abm made her cry in an off the board e-mail, and she then proceeds to schmooze with you, I find it rather intriguing. Sorry if you're offended. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 651
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 03:56 pm: |
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A_woman: Why do you think Abm took that point of view during the discussion? Do you think that is the way he truly feels?
YES |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 652
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:08 pm: |
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I don't know cynique it just does. and if one person's views are tolerated and allowed free reign to discuss and say whatever comes into thier mind to say, however they choose to say it and to run rampant on the board then so should EVERYONE.
and regardless of what KB was saying, why didn't anyone get up on a soapbox and defend her right to say whatever just as vigorously??? I am not by any means defending everything she said or how she chose to say it, but why are her rights to speak out any less valuable than another's??????
But in reality, what makes me angry is how some people cover up and make excuses and allowances for some but not others to the point that they never have to defend the things that they say that may be viewed by others as wrong because they have other people doing it for them. The same thing happened with Evilgoon. |
Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:23 pm: |
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A_Womon:
I ALWAYS...ALWAYS...liked you and wanted to be sisters. Glad we put all that crap aside, although, tomorrow I begin traveling to Oakland, San Diego, Tuscon and Texas...so finally, I will be forced to stop dropping in.
I agree with you and understand you and I like you a bunch, sister. You stay tough and keep your head to the sky.
*******
I also like "Moonsigns", and I don't think she's flat out racist--I don't.
I just think she is trying to function in a black atmosphere and totally remain herself and present herself as herself...which is admirable and respectful of us. One thing I hate about American society---everything is too Politically Correct. No one is allowed to be honest, to be tied to their traditions or beliefs. I don't value or consider Moonsigns an important voice here...but I do appreciate her bravery, her standing up for her life choices and her sassiness. Reminds me of me, because it takes ENORMOUS courage and love for human beings to tell them what's really inside you and what you really think. I don't agree with her sometimes--but I really, genuinely like Moonsigns and contrary to some people's perceptions--I don't hate or want to be separate from WHITES---I just want to give birth to my own image and to continue the heritage of my own people, as my non-Black Arab father raised me to do and as I believe Africa NEEDS me to do. I would love to see blacks survive (as themselves) and have good relations with Whites. But I don't want my children to BE white or to be separated from African-ness.
*********
Cynique--I try not to take your stuff "personal" and I try to remember that YOUR VIEWS are what originally called me here--in agreement. You said very often--what I would have said.
I know that the last time I was here I claimed that I don't like you--but that's NOT TRUE.
I really like you (not that you care) and I really, really admire you and think you're a very gifted writer and a very intelligent woman. As African women, we are two totally different breeds--but still: "We are much of the same muchness, you and I". I envy your ability to be NON-emotional, because I am so emotional--so passionate that my skin is like lava to the touch.
I have been reading your Opinions and Thoughts....FOR YEARS...and I really mean it when I say that I love you. I feel that I know you after all these years, and I love who you are.
Please don't dislike me, just because you don't understand my responsibilities to my people and to my experience.
Few Humans have been put in my position.
********
LAMBD--I just adore you, because you were kind to me and you supported me at a vulnerable moment when you could have LAUGHED and heckled me to fall on my face--as so many black men who HATE black women like me have done. You didn't. You stood up for me and you HELD ME up that day without even knowing it--because you accepted me as myself.
I don't KNOW YOU really...but I love your eyes (they're so wet and full of warmth, compassion and sensitivity), they offset your Big Football player body and they make your handsome face very approachable and non-intimidating.
I am MARRIED and have NEVER EVER cheated on my man (or any man I was with)...but if I was single, I would love to go to bed with you (and would plot, beg and carry it out)--just to vibe with your spirit and feel as protected and as safe as I did that day. I sleep with men to get their energy and to put love inside them--you saw what an emotional hurricane of a woman I am. I love men and I've always WISHED that I could BE ONE, because it's so painful being a woman, especially a woman in black skin. So I want you, my brother. But...Thomas is my master and my life. I guess I'm such a big TEASE. Please forgive me. His penis is like a sceptor that fastens my eyes to his stare until we are like two dead bees falling off the edge of the earth. I love him "insanely".
ABM--I don't have a CLUE as to what I've done against you or why you turned on me, but I loved you as my friend, and although I spent months crying over you, I am assuming that it's because you, too, are hurt somehow.
I am sorry, I love you and I have nothing bad to say about you. Please don't hurt me either--because any other man I can fight, but not you. I want your approval and understanding...so desperately.
Yukio: I respect you so much and I wanted us to be close, but because you're NOT a woman..you can't understand my responsibilities to the place that I come from. We have like-minded feelings about what to FIX for lunch, but CLASH on the "ingredients". You Americans are a strange breed, because you don't seem to come from ANYWHERE or to belong to anything greater than your own desires, your own will.
If you had the ability to really understand my "obligations" and my purpose...then you would not shy away from me or misunderstand my devotion to my children, racially.
I respect you so much, Yukio and I think you are brilliant and sort of wise--for where you stand.
This board is a wonderful place filled with wonderful people who have very important things to say.
I'm just grateful that I have the courage to say my own piece, no matter how foreign and bizzare I sound to people.
Without our own language--we forget how we really laugh.
I will be lurking, as usual.
God bless yall, my ones.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 128
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:26 pm: |
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Well dam* lambchop!
I thought you'd invite me to "Chocolate City" to see an Ice Capades show with you!
*just kidding*
Anyway, too bad you think I'm a racist --you're more than wrong.
btw, I have been intrigued by the compliments "miss" gave you (in regards to when she met you). Interesting stuff.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1204
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:28 pm: |
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Kola did have advocates on this board, a-womon. Several of her Howard university fans came to her defense and Yukio frequently took up for her as did Abm. But she would turn some people off when she'd get into her name-calling thing. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1011
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:42 pm: |
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A_womon,
Isn't it ironic that you have become quite friendly with the very person that I tried IN VAIN to encourage you to listen to a while ago?
And WHO defended said person more vigorously than I did?
See. That's why sometimes you've gottah slow it down a bit. Observe. And THEN make your move.
Play chess, baby girl. Play chess. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1012
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 04:56 pm: |
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Lambd,
There's no 'beef' between me and A_womon (2 bad for her). We (and Bluefrenzy and others) just have a different point a very on an important subject that affect our people. And I don't think you should disparage her for expressing her genuine feeling about what is being communicated here. Because I disagree that what happens here is not to be taken seriously. It should be. What we express in this cybernetic world does in fact reflect reality. Certainly it does not typify all, perhaps not even most, of it. But what is being expressed here is genuine and it should, at times, be respected as such.
Now. Honestly, I doubt that any of us a utterly right or wrong here. Because there are mountains of empirical and anecdotal evidence that would support both of our perspectives. That is why I ask her and others...WHAT DO WE DO?
~"WHAT DO WE DO? OH, WHAT DO WE DO? HI HO THE MARRIO OH WHAT DO WE DO?"~
See we can cry, wrench and b@#$% and about it 'til Judgment Day. But in the end, we've gottah DO something about it.
Look around you, foks.
Look at the jobs you have, the schools your kids attend, cars you drive and the homes you own. If we don't do something REAL SOON about the education thing, all of those things are going to be owned/occupied by Chinese (2 BILLION PEOPLE!) and Eastern Indians (+1 BILLION PEOPLE!) inside of a decade. Cuz guess what, they are learning "Standard English" and a WHOLE LOT MORE. In fact, the Indians are learning "Standard English" so damn well, they are talking services jobs (which a lot of young Blacks used to get) by the 100,000's.
See. I don't see this issue as one of some difference in pedagogical philosophy/practice. To me, it is much more urgent than that. Yeah, all these impediments you cite exist. But I honestly believe they would/could be more adequately addressed by us if we had a true/abiding appreciation for the imminent gravity of what is occurring.
But I think we Black Americans have in many ways been lured into a false sense of security. Since no one's burning a cross outside our front door, we feel we can relax when in truth the game, though different, is every bit as perilous as it has ever been.
You tell me. How long do you think this country will tolerate Black kids who can't read/write when they can score 50X our number of highly trained/motivated humanstock from countries that are structuring their entire governments and social systems about competing at the highest possible level?
And to take it back to another issue we have discussed recently, why you think there are +2X the number of prisons being built/renovated that schools? What will happened to people who are permanently being denied the right to vote (+million of Black ex-cons)? Will they be able to elect people who defend their best interests? No.
We all have provided very articulate recitations of the PROBLEMS. I wish we would train your braintrust upon the SOLUTIONS.
PS: You made a bizarre comparison between us and the Ku Klux Klan. Then tell me. Should we be doing HERE the equivalent of what the Klan does?
See. In our rage to prove our point, sometimes we can sound just plain CRAZY! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:02 pm: |
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Yukio,
I apologize for not recognizing your response to my request. The Amistad Academy program does appear to offer an effective method of improving education. And actually I have witnessed similar programs being executed elsewhere. Thanks for attempting to help move the dialog toward solutions.
Can you provide any statistical support of the effectiveness of Amistad? (Okay, I'm a stat geek.)
And, yes, even a good student can fail if their schools are inadequate. I witnessed friends of mine suffer from that when they went to college. That is why parental involvement is KEY. Because parents should know whether what their children is receiving is competitive with others. That is also why, I know some of yawl don't wanna hear it, Standardize Exams are important. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1014
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:09 pm: |
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All,
In spite of the opinions of some, I have no special allegiance to Moonsigns.
Go back to my initial responses to her. I doubt you'll find anyone who debated her more vigorously than I did. To me, this WHOLE thing turned when some of us chose to use her race to discount the merits of what she had to say. I am sorry. But I will not actively espouse the very pathology that we relentless and rightfully accuse White people of. Blindly supporting/discarding someone's views primarily because of their skincolor is CRAZY. It just doesn't do us any good.
Yes, race is a factor in words/interpretations. But some of what Moonsigns says, particularly about raising and educating children is wholly consistent with what I believe. Hell! It is consistent with what I DO. And it WORKS. So I am backing her views, I am doing so, ironically, because I feel it would be in the best interest of BLACK PEOPLE to consider adopting. Were she Black, I would think/say no less.
See. If a doctor gives to me medicine that works, I don't stop to quibble about whether she has stringy or kinky hair. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 744
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:21 pm: |
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abm: wise ol man...calm down! don't get excited!
YOu didn't address my post, but I'm gonna agree with some of ya points here, anyway!
Black folk are taking things for granted...There are many variables, but generally we bs or we think only economics matters, and it only matters for one's individual family unit rather than the community.
This is why I can appreciate your point about the need for black economic enterprise for the community. I even believe in community involved public schools....imagine if you could talk to uninformed men and women about questions of standard english...if this was a prerequisite of public school enrollment!
Of course...the black poor are in jail, and ironically these prisons replace the factories(that the US moved to countries w/o labor parties) that once hired the white working classes(though they discriminated against black folk), so now you have a huge white welfare pop. and most of the guards in these prisons are poor non-standard english speaking white folk. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 454
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:28 pm: |
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Moonsigns may or may not be a racist, Abm. But that was some racist-azz, shytt she said out of her mouth on an African-American forum. That's all I have to say about that.
Moonie: I don't do ice capades. I do go-go. This is Chocolate City, baby!
Abm: The KKK thing was just in response to something A_woman said earlier. See if the doc can get you another pill...And you still haven't apologized to Snake-eyes for making her cry. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 455
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:30 pm: |
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Snake-eyes: too bad we have to respect your marriage, cuz there's a sceptor in CC with your name on it. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 456
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:32 pm: |
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Did I just say that after you so humbly apologized for flirting with me? ...sorry. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 130
Registered: 07-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:44 pm: |
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Abm,
I'm glad you said this. I have always known that you have no special allegiance to me --that is purely ridiculous.
I have to share a story to prove my next point. My husband and I once went to a party years ago, where he, and a few other black people were the only blacks attending. Of course there were some other non-white folks, however, just a handful of black people. I was mortified when I introduced my husband to this one white guy and he said something to the extent that he met his (my husbands) family in the other room. The man was really humilited and embarassed, and moreso because my husband, in a sarcastic tone replied, "No, that's not my family, we all don't look alike" (he isn't one to hold back AT ALL). I'm glad he did that because people need to be informed of their ignorance.
Now, I can make my point. In situations like this, as we've experienced a few more similiar to this, I find myself wanting to say this to some black people when they attack other blacks for not feeling the EXACT same way. Blacks have a collective struggle, but they are also individuals. I have been a witness to this on several occassions, where blacks will be discussing things and will disagree (conservative and liberal views) and turn around and call one another all sorts of names. Just as all blacks don't look alike, they don't think alike.
Recently, my husband was talking with this young guy (early 20s) at a social gathering. My husband was suggesting that black communities really work together to clean up their neighborhoods. He suggested that they start (he willing to help) by picking up the litter/garbage and how people need to clean their homes up. The kid started freaking out saying he wasn't black and all sorts of crazy stuff. Again, not all black people think alike. (this situation really saddened me)
Again, Abm and I have gone at it debating various issues, always respectfully. He has never, ever kissed my a$$ and I wouldn't expect him to on the merit that I'm white --that is just stupid! I would think by this time people would have understood my heart better, as well as his.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 458
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:51 pm: |
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I have absolutely no idea why she just said what she said or what it has to do with anything. Is this another one of your supremacist tricks? Close your eyes everyone! |
Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 13
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:53 pm: |
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It's OK Lambd. I feel the same way.
And I AM such a big tease--because I'm very insecure about my height and my looks. I started as a model and actress you know. Even in the intellectual world of literature--I find myself POSING and being so..."insecure".
Maybe that's why ABM has disowned me--because our bantering couldn't go any further than the net???
I've been with Thomas 9 years off and on. Both my boys look just him. Their eyes watch everything I do.
At this stage in a relationship, you don't always get the ATTENTION that you were used to....and for goodlooking men like Thomas, there's a GANG of women out there waiting to take my place--they proposition him everyday I'm certain. They see he has money, nice cars--and they're young and perfect.
So I use men like you and ABM to flirt with--to have that "feeling" for that moment--that even though I'm aging and I'm spoken for and basically live as a housewife cum writer, I'm still SEXY and still WANTED.
Please forgive me, because it's not right to kiss your ear like I did at UDC and then giggle and run away shaking my Booty in your face like I did and not....put out.
Please forgive me, LAMBD.
Or even writing you all this stuff. It's so frothy, but...It's just my way of explaining that it's ...ME.... who is at fault---for teasing----and that I hope you'll forgive me and still be there for me as a brother.
I'm just a little insecure is all.
I shouldn't use the internet like this, to delude myself...or to delude you.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 745
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:00 pm: |
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abm: right...you may have "debated her vigorously," but in this thread you did not...and it is only recently, that you have said that you agree with her parenting analysis. You only commented on the stereotype of the bickering and b#tching women, by the by. And then you took off your sexist hat, and placed your affirmative action suit on...lmao!
No one used her race to discount her arguments, and no one even disagreed about the need to parent...black folk already believe that they need to raise productive, educated denizens of the black community.
The disagreements were: (1) Concerned whether good parenting could address institutional problems. A_WOMon and I say NO!
It is only recently that she has agreed that closing the gap would require all involved...schools, gov't, etc...not just "responsible" parents.
Before this, she talked about "love" and the socalled downfall of US values, morals, and standards....another issue she never addressed! In fact, a_womon didn't even say anything about acknowledging her children as black, but that moonsigns kids may have to endure certain barriers because of their color, regardless of how successful them become.
Since her views are consistent w/what u believe, it would be "black" of you to tell POOR WHITES to also adopt good parenting too!
(2) Folk respectfully asked her about her comments...and when a_Womon made the point that moonsigns word choice suggested that she was making crime and delinquency particular to black folk, A_womon was called stupid!
Now, should moonsigns walk on eggshells, NO! But should she be treated differently, NO! She has been as "emotional" and has wobbled on as much haterade as a_womon allegedly has! ANd considering her mythological understanding of the past...one has to wonder if her colorblind comments acknowledge that black folk endure/endured life differently...and more importantly, that life is always the clash between the structural/institutional and human behavior. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:01 pm: |
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Yukio,
In my prior post to you, I acknowledged and concurred with the merits of some of your comments. I'm am sure if you direct me to what part of your prior comments I failed to address, I would do so again. |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 11
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:09 pm: |
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a_woman: i have no pat answer for your questions about black men, black women, and the positions each take about each other. it takes all kinds, i guess. some people go out of their way to prove that they are being fair and objective. some people don't want to stick their necks out. some people always jump into a fire or dispute to defend or attack. i don't know the answers to your questions, and, since it isn't a topic that i often reflect on, i don't have much to add to the line of questioning. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:12 pm: |
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Yukio,
I disagree with your "No one used [Moonsigns] race to discount her arguments". Man. Most of what has ensued from the moment Moonsigns mentioned her race has centered along those lines.
Here is an example of something your favorite co-signer A_womon said to Moonsigns:
"And you might want to consider that the problems that face black children that have to navigate through this convoluted system are REAL and supersede any white person's opinion, mentatlity, or biased views on what needs to be done about it....This is why I am not interested in your opinion on African American affairs--you don't now nor will you EVER get it."
Isn't THAT an example of what I refer to?
Hell! A_womon said the mere notion of her being married to a Black man disgusted her. Is that the mentality of someone who is interesting in engaging in a fair/impartial discussion? |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 459
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:14 pm: |
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QueenKB: I don't mind you kissing my ear. I don't mind you running off. I don't even mind the fact that you are tall...but the not putting out part you gotta work on! Oh. and you can shake your booty anytime you want. I don't mind that either. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:18 pm: |
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Now I know A_womon would say I am singling her out, which to some degree I am. But I am not doing so to do harm to her personally. Rather, I focus on her because I feels she often articulates an earnest but flawed viewpoint/mentality. Now, I suspect that she will evolve beyond those limitations to the point that a Moonsigns will hardly be worth her bother. But to do that, she's got to learn to separate her emotions from the truth. And I seek to help her to move forward.
After all, I love A_womon. She is my daughter. She is my future. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 460
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:22 pm: |
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Hey_woman is petite, and pretty, and twenty-three, bro! I got a Victoria Secret credit card with her name on it! What you gonna do, Abm! You wit it, or no? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 653
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:23 pm: |
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I beg to differ with you abm. I DO have beef with you so speak for yourself! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 461
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:25 pm: |
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Party at my house! Did I mention that she's a sister? Go to the party, bro. It'll get you outta hot water with the rest of the chicks. You know. On account of that whole "you and moonrider" thing. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1018
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:37 pm: |
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Yukio,
If you READ my prior posts, you would see I TOO differed with Moonsigns about the relative importance of maintaining "traditions", "values" and the like.
But agree with her that parenting is a part of the formula of correcting institutional problems. Because institutions are built/maintained by people. And if/when people decide they no longer want said institutional issues, they will go away.
If it is not individuals and families who will bring about the changes we want, who PRAYTELL will?
Man. Don't bring po' White foks into the discussion. Don't we have enuff on our plate right now.
JEEZ!
See. That's what drives me freaking mad.
We are so afraid to call out our own devils we've gotta go pokin' 'round doze of other foks. Of course there are poor, ignorant White foks. But tell me: Are YOU especially interested in and motivated by helping them? Of course not. So let's try to keep it all real.
K?
And I'll let you and Moonsigns ponder her "mythological" interpretation of history. Because I don't even know what THAT means. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1019
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:45 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
You are right that there are ALL KINDS of Black foks with ALL KINDS of views. One of my best friends is so conservative she would make Condelessa Rice look like Maxine Waters. However, some of my views border on radicalism.
So of course we argue ALL the time.
But we still love and respect each other enuff to remain friends in spite of our differing views.
I guess that's why I am somewhat taken about about some of the reaction to some of what I post here. Because I guess I inherently assume that even though we disagree, we still respect/care about each other. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1020
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:48 pm: |
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A_womon,
Well then, Darling. You are going to have to get in (a long) line to buy a ticket. Because I average about 3 Black women being angry with me everyday. |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:52 pm: |
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abm:
"The history of the American school system, though interesting is yesteryear's news."
no it isn't. and this comment is so... misinformed that it is difficult to give any energy to it. when we talk about "closing the achievement gap" in public schools, we are talking about a nationwide initiative that is sanctioned by the president and, therefore, federal law. this idea of "no child left behind" has specific strategies for assessment, tracking of data, RESEARCHING PAST PRINCIPLES, and a component of teacher/ school accountability. the whole idea is that educators are being forced to look at the history of public school practices with the intention of figuring out what parts of the institution have worked and which have not. and we don't just want to know what hasn't worked, but we also are trying to figure out WHY it hasn't worked.
"Observe who manages to garner freedoms and opportunities and who don't. Those people often fall within very distinct patterns of behavior, starting with how they WRITE/SPEAK"
oh please. i totally disagree with you here. i was never one of those who said that assimilating by learning standard english would necessarily lead to success OUTSIDE of school. having a diploma helps people outside of school, and getting one is easier for those who have mastered standard english. and there's a difference.
i don't see freedoms and opportunities necessarily "garnered" by people who speak or write well. all kinds of successful af-am's, and people in general, can't write or speak their way out of paper bags:
mike tyson
tim duncan
r. kelly
macie gray
eric brooks
my grandaddy
i can go on and on and on...
i see people who have money as the ones who have freedom and opportunity. that, and some people who are exceptional or extraordinary in some way. like being especially good at a craft, business, or trade, or working exceptionally hard, even if not as talented as someone else, or being in the right place at the right time, and sometimes all of these things together. and, yes, sometimes because they express themselves well.
you, abm, are the exception rather than the rule. period. the idea, though, with this move toward education reform (supposedly) is to revisit the very foundation on which public school was built. what are public schools supposed to be giving our children, do they give it, and how well does it work? are we supposed to make sure that all students have the opportunity to do their best, or are we just obligated to ensure that they see some academic success?
mainly, though, for every af-am student who, as you claim, ignores reading in favor of that *&^% b.e.t, as you say, there are 4 or 5 white kids who do the same thing. and they still pass. what we are finding out is that ordinary, lazy, or only slightly motivated white kids can pass through this system far more easily than even extraordinary black kids. to say nothing of our children that are not extraordinary in terms of academia.
how can we stop looking at and trying to change instituions that have racisim built into their systems? you're saying the way to do it is to make sure that every single person works as hard as you did, that every single parent work as hard as moon does. and i agree that doing this would make a HUGE difference. but it's never going to happen.
so, while we encourage our students to be as hard-working as you, we also analyze the system we have built to figure out what parts of it we can change to the advantage of more of our students.
sad as it is, most people, white or black, are not extraordinary in a way that will serve them in academia or anywhere else. the question becomes, should a student have to be extraordinary to pass their classes and get a diploma? and if this is the case, then the implication is that white kids are extraordinary and af-am kids are not.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:53 pm: |
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Lambd,
Thanks for the invite. But sorry. I think I'll haftah pass. I wouldn't want A_womon's 'beef' with me put the c@#$block on whatchu trynah get into.
So go'on and "Knock it out the box, Rick!" |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 654
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 06:56 pm: |
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Here's the thing, I DON'T now give a *uck about moonsigns or her state of mind except for a few things: One of them is that YOU refuse to let her defend her own remarks.
Secondly, I don't HAVE to like her and I DONT. I hate that she can come in here like she owns the place use words and taunts and fling insults that others would have been deleted for and kicked off the board! and I am supposed to do what. tie a rag around my head and start screamin "Mz scahlett I don' know nothin bout nothin lessin you tells me to. I sho does appri she ate yo tellin me about de crimnals in mah fambly cawse yall white foks sho in de *uck don got none in yoase! I sho is sorry that I brung up ser'al killaz and thangs, cuz its only a few hundred of yall that we's been tol' bout and dat don compah to de crimnal that we got no suh not at all thank you missy white azz fa settin me straight on the flawz in my famly Caws I do declare yall white folks iz widout sin yessah yaw is as guiless as us black foks is flawed. you sho issssssssss." HAH
You have NO idea how much restraint I have used not to go off on that chick for calling me out my name--but checkit dont EVER git it twisted--she getz NO MORE free passes on that tip, so if yall think I was blazin that azz of hers before stick around, cuz that ish that I told her before was just a soggy cookie for her to chew on. BELIEVE that. Trust and Believe aint NONE of yall seen me act Crazy up in here YET.
If I want to puke when I see an inter-racial couple so what? Is moonsigns the only one allowed to voice her true and honest feelings???? See that right there, THAT'S the ish right there that I'm talkin about! If YOU abm can't see that you are practicing some type of reverse discrimination against me because you are so HELL bent on protecting moonsigns' rights to free speech then OH WELL.
What I don't understand is why you want to TRY to check Yukio when he merely makes certain points clear that I said. When you stand on a soap box and defend some bs remarks that she made???
But as I said, I don't take instruction well from a white girl that aint got a clue. But if you and others on this board want to be instructed, do da damn thang! But don't you dare expect me to be silent on the truth of my views in the meanwhile allowing her to spew hers!! I don't want or need her advice PERIOD. NOW is that plain enough for you??? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1022
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:15 pm: |
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Bluefrenzy,
I was prep to make what would have likely been a very lengthy response to you last post. But when I consider that you chose to cite R. Kelly and Mike Tyson as reasons for why people don't have to "SPEAK/WRITE" well, you have, alas, succinctly help me to see (yet again) why our kids are struggling. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 655
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:17 pm: |
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If you love me, then give me, my words, and my thoughts, the same respect and value that you do others. It's not enought to say it with words when other words you are saying don't bear you out!!! |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:20 pm: |
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oh, now this is just silliness. and mean spirited besides. if you read what i wrote and understood it (is there a problem, once again, with standard english???), you will note that i use these two as examples of the idea that people DO NOT HAVE TO WRITE OR SPEAK WELL, as you suggest, to "garner freedom." |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1023
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:20 pm: |
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A_womon,
My darling. You made similar criticism about someone 'else' (we both know who THAT is) whose opinions you now enjoy. So, as vigorously as you now criticize her, I haftah wonder if 6 months from now will you and Moonsigns will be bosum buddies. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 656
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:26 pm: |
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You are SICK ABM!!! Why don't you GET OVER IT!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1024
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:34 pm: |
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Bluefreezy,
Why would you include those as examples if they don't represent you viewpoint? Were you joking? Trying to be ironic. Sarcastic.
Speak up woman! Say whatchu mean, then mean whatchu say.
I consul teachers from grade school through college professor ALL THE TIME. I lecture in schools. I know what the f@#$ I am talking about.
So if you stick around here long enuff. And don't let your attitude get the better of you, you may learn a lil' something.
A_womon,
Growing can be painful.
I have spoken what I find to be the truth. Unfortunately, it differs from that of your own. Just because I love you don't mean that I am to concur with everything you say and do. I am raising 2 Black daughters. Everyday I must correct their behavior, even chastise them.
But at the end of the day, I do what I do for what is best for them. I know it may not appear like it, but I do what I do to you here in that same spirit.
I, however, will review how I have responded to you lately and modify that behavior that might unfairly treat you.
Yukio is a Black man. As am I. There are things that happen between Black men that women should stay out of. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 462
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:48 pm: |
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Oh yeah, Abm. With that last statement, no party I could ever throw can get you out of this mess. Sorry, dude. I tried to help you out. Peez! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 131
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 08:41 pm: |
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A_womon,
This is the same 'ole "blah-blah" you've always been talking.
I have been defending myself from the jump and don't need anyone to defend me. To prove my point further, next to no one agrees with me on this forum and I have still maintained my own. But most don't show the blatant disrespect you have. You and Yukio think Abm has been my "mouthpiece". You have got to be kidding. He agrees with me on ONE freakin' issue and all of a sudden he's speaking for me --whatever! You and Yukio aren't hearing from me what you want to hear and how you want it phrased. Is Abm now your new scapegoat because he agrees with me on ONE issue? LOL "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" --get over it already! You can hardly control yourself when anyone disagrees with you. I wasn't the first person to bring this to your attention, either. Obviously, there IS a problem. Being that I'm white infuriates you even more(because you sure hate white women), add to that a black person who disagrees with you, and agrees with me, and we are eating haterstew made by A_womon. I recall in one of your posts stating that you have white friends --what you have are aquaintances who don't know how you really feel --but funny how you let it all out here. Kind of sounds like whites who have black friends to cover up their prejudices. It's pathetic to say the least! I don't dislike people like that, I dislike their mentality. I don't dislike you, I don't even know you, but I dislike your mentality --huge difference!
A_womon, you let everyone know what is on your mind, whenever you want and however you want. For you to cry censorship is comical! Don't act as if you have these sweet intentions and you just want "honest" answers from me. Say what you have to say about my relationship, indulge in your right to free speech, just know, I will too. I can handle it. Who is the one in tears?
Go off, go the "f" off, would you?! Enough of the tough cookie thing. "Blazin azz" --that's absurd. You think you're "blazin" my "azz" because you tell me what YOU think is going on in my life --from how you know but a slice of who I am from the internet? I'm embarrassed for you! You wouldn't be saying anything I haven't heard already and you are indeed a loose cannon! Knock yourself out!
Initially, I extended my hand to you, you're hate (not the truth of what the Divine has put within your heart) refused. You have a long road ahead of you and I hope you find peace. As a woman, regardless of race, I still have to wish you well. You are still a female and I care about all females. You fight with me because it is your personality (as others here have pointed out) and you haven't healed from sexism and it's repercussions (that shyt is hard, I know). One day you will remember me and maybe "get" what I'm talking about today. If you "get it", you will be one powerful woman. If not, you will be an emotional "bag lady" for the rest of your life and continue to regurgitate the hate of your soul all over yourself and others. You will ONLY be self-destructive.
Lastly, if you need reply, do so. If you must save face, do so. However, just a heads up, I will read nothing from you from this point on, regardless of topic. Don't waste your time.
I am done with your energy.
Peace be.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 132
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 08:56 pm: |
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Lambd,
Once I leave (for good), throw a huge dam* party and everybody will be friends again.
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 231
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 08:58 pm: |
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Hello All,
After reading this long as_ thread I've reached a couple of conclusions:
Moonsign and A_womon: You two are not LISTENING to what the other is saying. A_womon has made very valid points. I would not let her delivery discount the truth in her message. I fall on the same bandwagon with the others, Moonsigns what you said was racist. I know that is not the message you intended to convey, for the crust of your message lies in truth. The examples you used to illustrate it, well, there in lies the problem. But, most white people are like you, claiming to be liberal, color blind; peace and love ever flowing types, still have racists tendencies. You don't mean to, but the truth of the matter is, this country, this society is literally, legally, figutively based on racism. There are things that you just don't understand. So, I am following my Ol' Grayhead's philosophy and will not discuss any matters of race with you, because I don't believe you or any white person can fully get where I'm coming from and I see no need in beating my head against that wall.
ABM: Man, what happened to you. Reading your posts was like, going back through time! It was like *sniffling* *reaching for a Kleenex* having the old ABM back! I will now put you back in place as my number 2 Ol' Grayhead. I want to be just like you when I reach my 50s!
I know some you have raised some other issues. Frankly, I won't address many of them because they're childish and you all need to grow up.
A_womon, your memory is as faulty as all get out. If you need me to refresh it for you, let me know. While you trying to kiss somebody's tail, I kicked them and YOU off the board for a time because of you all language. And here you are talking smack about why nobody defend so and so. You wasn't worried about that person's defense when so and so was calling you all those bitches, now were you? *eyebrow raised* Besides, for you and a few others, I'm pretty much a straight shooter. If I got something to say to anybody, I tell em straight on. Bump all this dropping clues, talking in riddles and crap! I'm too old to play childish games. Now, if you, Yukio and anybody else got anything to say to me about how things are ran here, my email is thumper@aalbc.com, drop a nigga line.
I feel better now. *LOL* |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 463
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:02 pm: |
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Moonie, I'll throw a big party if you get inside a big white cake. How's that? It's too late to save my boy so he may as well finish his long journey straight to white woman hell.
Thumper, glad to see you're back. Try not to crack that whip too hard cause I know I got a very small part of it aimed my way. "Lawd knows I tried ta keep da peeze while massa wuz away! Lawd knows!", LOL. I can't help pretending like you just came from some faraway place and can't read the posts and have no idea whats been going on.
Maybe you can help me with something,TD,(Thump-Daddy for those of you just gettin' in), where the hell is ole Sarge? I aint seen his gray head in about a week. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 657
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:17 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
BIIIIIIIIIIG YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWN!!!!
Look girl, wait a minute ANOTHER BIGGGGGGGGGG YAWN!!!! Dang! Your last post was YAAAAAAAAAWN !!! BORING AND POINTLESS...I ..Hold up...Yawn!! Never mind its no use, everytime I try to finish it I practically fall asleep... If you want me to go the off on you, you're going to just have to YYYYYYYYYYYAAAAAAAAAwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!! Oh excuse me, that was quite rude of me!. ANYWAY as I was saying..if you want me to go off you're just going to have to try har yawwwwwwwwn der!
YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWN! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1207
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:20 pm: |
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Jeeze, I'm glad your back, Thumper! Somebody needs to bring order to chaos.
Moonsigns, girlfriend, you are really a glutton for punishment. Have you "stayed too long at the fair"??? BTW, if you're interested, I gotta link to a site where all the posters do is moon over Viggo. (great pics and poetry, too.) >> wink-wink << |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 658
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:33 pm: |
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Hi Thumper,
Welcome back, I think. I really want to address this KB issue with you sayin I'm kissin her tail and thangs, but I ain't gone lie, I'm too scared to right now. I mean, when I clicked the button for aalbc and I saw THUMPER up there in big blue letters my heart started beating fast and my hands got all sweaty and I could feel my eyes startin to water and I felt like Oh Lord, BIG DADDY Thumper home what's gone happen now..
So maybe I better save it, hunh? *gulp*
Goodnite. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 746
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:35 pm: |
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Thumper: welcome back. BUT drop the hard talk. Since you are a straight shooter, explain to me your reasoing for addressing me so...
moonsigns: Where have I said that abm was your "mouthpiece." Mouthpiece was actually the term he used to characterize me.
I basically stated that he prevents folk from debating you through arguing that they discount your comments because of your race. And that this hasn't been done for anyone else, hence the affirmative action comment...lmao!
So no, it has nothing to do w/liking what u write...it wasn't even about your behavior, comments, etc..., it was the fact that he used race to stifle a debate...the same thing he charged to others. In others, as the post was addressed, I was talking about abm not you...now, do u believe me and give me the same respect I gave you when u said that we misinterpreted your statements as racist or are you gonna tell me AGAIN, that I'm lying and you're really a mind reader and doing a lil telepathy like abm says we all do?
ABM: you might want to put A_womon’s response to Moonsigns into the context of our conversation…let me try, since much of moonsigns comments were responses to me!
A_WOmon states:
"And you might want to consider that the problems that face black children that have to navigate through this convoluted system are REAL and supersede any white person's opinion, mentatlity, or biased views on what needs to be done about it....This is why I am not interested in your opinion on African American affairs--you don't now nor will you EVER get it."
Yes, a_womon mentioned her race, but as I read it, not to “discount her(moonsigns) arguments.” She using race as the reasoning for moonsigns erroneous comment.
This is different from suggesting moonsigns is white, and white people are wrong. I believe a_womon made the statement to argue that moonsigns’ white experience and privilege enabled her to suggest that the educational gap particularly illiteracy was the result of the US lowering their standards. This suggests that the US ONCE attempted to provide a viable education to its citizens…that isn’t even true for poor white people.
At this point, remember, moonsigns was arguing that (1) All people in this country need to learn standard English; and (2) for what ever reasons she went off topic and talked about immigrants—if I can paraphrase she suggested that non-standard English speakers, and in this particular thread this included african americans, did not learn standard English because the US had “lower it's standard of living (both morally and intellectually) by kissing the a$$es of people who refuse to assimiliate.”
Assimilate to what? In other words, Standard English is there for the taking, but all you have to do is commit cultural suicide. (1) This suggests that something is wrong w/our culture, and (2) it presumes that the education is available, and that it is our efforts that are lacking. Again, white folk, particularly middle class, can say this when their schools give them so much.
ABM, you are correct, u did differ with ms.
Yes, individuals and families should bring about change. But much of the change pertained to changing and raising children rather than schools. I say do both. More importantly, although there are alternative ways for change, if one wants institutional/curricula they would have to create an organization or association and protest. Societal change is true movements not by raising intelligent children who accept their living conditions.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 747
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:40 pm: |
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should say, "societal change is through social movements ..." |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 232
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:10 am: |
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Hello All,
Yukio wrote: Thumper: welcome back. BUT drop the hard talk. Since you are a straight shooter, explain to me your reasoing for addressing me so...
Thank you Yukio, it is so good to be back. *big smile* Not a problem. In one of these long ass threads you and A_womon decided to throw a pity party as to why I "discipline" some posters while allowing other posters to get away with murder. Do you recall that conversation? *eyebrow raised* YOUR bone of contention was that I let ABM get away with all kinds of disrespecting you. I didn't see it that way. He was getting the best of you. You were doing battle with an ol' Grayhead and losing. And instead of taking notes, you got and stayed pissed. Like a child, you went "See Thumper why ain't he getting in trouble. So and so got in trouble but you ain't gettin him. Look! Look! He did it again! Look, he still doin' it!" *eyebrow raised* Come on dawg. I don't know whether to pick you up, pat you on the back and burp you, or see if your diaper needs changing, or throw a pacifier in your mouth. THAT is why I addressed you so. Anything else? *eyebrow raised* If you got something else, try to follow my suggestion and hitting me at my email address, that way my memory space on the board ain't being used up and the conversation can stay on the topic, and most importantly, I can be ME in all my glory. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1033
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Thumper,
HAHA!
And THANKS! But you know what, I was sincerely hoping you wouldn't have to say to Yukio what you eventually said. And I certainly didn't want to say it. Rather, I had hoped he would "get it" on his own, and then respond in a way in which an intelligent person, like he OBVIOUSLY is, would.
But as I said to Yukio before, I think what may prove to be his fatal intellectual flaw is his unwillingness to concede when/where another is better informed or can more clearly/persuasively articulate a point. That kind of stubbornness can make one embarrass oneself.
Moreover, the reason why I have often broken out the 'pledge paddle' on Yukio is that I know that I have time/again conceded points to him. Yet I STILL get these cryptic/bizarre "You didn't address my point." responses. Now. As much as I rant on around here, how the @#$% is he gonna imply that I didn't or wouldn't address ANY of his "points"? Any reasonable observation of my behavior around here would loudly assert that avoiding or 'iging' what others say ain't even within my voluntary ability to do.
And see, where I come from, when another brothah try to tell you, "Okay, homie. I gotchu. You down." and you STILL try to play'em, well, I got mix it up witchu.
Cuz look. Ain't NOBODY 'round here is so damn smart that no one else can follow what you are saying. Hey pal, if over half your conversation involves you saying "You don't understand what I meant..." or "You did not answer and/or address my point...", the fault probably lies with YOU, not them!
But all that notwithstanding, I have high regard for Yukio and his running buddy A_womon. Because they obviously have a sincere, abiding and passionate interest in wanting to learn, discover and grow. And I am particularly pleased to witness such intellectual earnestness amongst our younger, gen-Xer set. Because the truth is, when I was their age, I had only 2 things on my mind: Gettin' paid and gettin' laid.
PS: Thanks for the favorable comparison to Carey. Really, he reminds me of a guy I would like to be like...when I grow up. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1034
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:03 am: |
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A_womon and Moonsigns,
All that raw emotion! I wonder if/when you ladies will realize that you are having the kind of catfight that little girls often have that precedes their becoming best friends. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 752
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:08 am: |
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thumper: I remember the post. I was talking about power dynamics, not you...I'll email you...
abm: unfortunately, you've taken thumper's error as a way to promote your "highness."
abm...be serious. we both conceded points to eachother, as we have done on this very thread...and similarly, we also miss eachother's points, as is demonstrated on this very thread...for whatever reasons you constantly create this discussion, or was that lambd, about something being over someone's head...I'm more inclined to believe that it is a matter of verbosity...but I'll leave this here, it seems you like to breakdown and bring back up thing...cheers! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1036
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:48 am: |
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See what I mean? This kid ain't ever wrong about ANYTHING. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 467
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:55 am: |
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I know I could never be "over your head", Yukio. I just like f&*(ing witchu! Whenever somebody calls you out you act like a cold b*&^%, and start using big words and cuttin' and pastin' big articles from big brained journals that are way over my head. I feel like I'm going to college without paying tuition when I talk to you. I figure eventually I'll learn something useful if I keep listening. Guess what? You don't have to prove anything this time. It's a compliment in disguise you big-brained bamma! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:00 pm: |
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Lambd,
HAHA!
Aight now, playah. Take it easy on the young brothah. He'll get it...eventually (I hope.). |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 469
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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I told you he was the smartest retard in the world! I really think his brain is too big for his head! That's it! He aint Yukio no more! His new name is "Brainiak!"
Seriously, though, Yukio. I got more respect for you than I let on. You are one intelligent young cat. I got a whole lot more jealousy than I got respect though, and most times the envy wins out. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1213
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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Yukio, my darling, you have the one admirable trait that your 2 detractors lack. You never stoop to petty insults. You always engage people intellectually, and for this I respect you. You still my "peeps". |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:53 pm: |
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"you chose to cite R. Kelly and Mike Tyson as reasons for why people don't have to "SPEAK/WRITE" well"
abm: you counsel teachers and lecture? good for you! so do i. and where in my yarn did i suggest that you DON'T know what you're talking about? that's just slinging mud, and i don't do that.
nor did i suggest that r. kelly and mike tyson are reasons "why" people don't need to write and speak well. i offer them as examples, as proof, that freedoms, as you say, are not always linked to a set of behavior starting with knowing how to write and to speak. their behavior has been deplorable and neither of them writes or speaks especially well. yet, they are completely successful, at least financially.
and i notice in your last reprimand that you do not address the points that i laid out-- rather, you obscure them; instead, you use bravado to let me know you want my respect and you want me to shut up. gotcha.
i can stick around and listen, and i respect your opinions, though i don't always totally agree with them. hi, thumper! i'm new around here and wanted to send a shout out! |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:03 pm: |
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lambd, i am absolutely a woman, but i am not a doctor yet. i am working on my phd, and until my dissertation has been completed, defended, and published, i cannot take on that title. i am a professor. but please call me blue.
okay, about solutions for closing the gap (isn't that what we were talking about?) i go by my research and that of my peers. here's what we've come up with:
enlist the aid of the whole school community, including parents, teachers, administrators, to be a part of the learning process
extend the school period past the end of the day- implement after school initiatives, including home work clubs, summer enrighment programs, extra curricular activities that supplement in school learning, etc
parents- take an active part in your student's schooling- meet the teachers and keep in touch with them, be a part of the home work process, and ENCOURAGE STUDENTS TO READ EVERY SINGLE DAY
request to view a copy of the curriculum used at the school, and look at how it is implemented, in terms of classes and assignments. be vocal and actively involved. bottom line is, schools will do what the parents want if they are actively involved and adament.
schools- make sure that veteran teachers teach the developmental classes that are often majorly peopled by student's of color
hire and maintain a diverse faculty that reflects the student body (this one is a BIG issue in MANY schools, including my own)
look at the statistics of demographics in your area and notice that many have moved back toward segregation, sometimes inadvertantly, and this back slide period from 1980's- present is the same period in which we see a real gap in achievement (we had successfully addressed this achievment gap in the 70's to early 80's, when integration was thriving in the US) send your kids to integrated schools
teachers- look at the research and published best practices that have been proven to work in the classroom-- modify some of your strategies to include these practices
ebonics- the pilot program that was used in oakland back in the early 90's was actually quite successful in practice. people, who never bothered to look at the research and the philosophy behind use of ebonics (ebony phonics), made the mistake of thinking that teachers were encouraging the use and teaching of "bad english."
not true at all. the pilot program used black vernacular english, as well as some other creole or mixed languages, in text books along with standard english. and students REALLY IMPROVED during this pilot process. the aim was never to teach "bad english," but to use the language that students already speak as a bridge to learning standard english.
now let me sit back and listen to what abm has to say, lest he should scold me again for expressing my opinions.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 753
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:15 pm: |
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cyn: you are a cold glass of water and a fresh winter breeze in hell..lmao!
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 754
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:20 pm: |
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blue--so u are abd? You're degree is in education or literature?
Also, did u see the pbs program about amistad academy...much of your solutions are exactly, if i recall, what the program in conneticult did! |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 194
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:23 pm: |
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I don't know why we keep bumpin' our heads against the same wall. Yukio don't want to get it. If he did he would have to change and lord knows change is hard. So his game remains in nutrole. Yeah, his game remains in nutrole, like, "who me", "what y'all talkin about" " what I said was ( "one thousand words of a confussing nature spiced with a degree of facts, albiet facts that have little if anything to do with the issue at hand"). What we fail to realize is that our guy is dealing with the hand he's been dealt and therefore we might be expecting too much. Ya can't get kool-aid from an orange tree. I'm sorry I had to go there but I just get fed up with the b.s.
I do not suffer fools lightly. My tolerence for fake b.s. is at an all time low.
You can help a man jake up his slakes but you can't make him a man. He either is or he ain't. They showed their hold card a few months ago but hey...........
I liked what I read on the board when my guy pulled y'alls coat on the issue of talking race with a .......person of a different blend. They can't help who they are and no matter how hard they try to flip it around they will forever be dealing from a position of "superiority". Cause they can "say" all that nice shit but when the mess get's thick they can reach back in the closet and shake out that robe. Their base is different than ours, their soul is different and therefore they can visit us but they will never ever never be one of use. Flip it, smack it, spin it around, the truth hurts but it is what it is and it ain't going nowhere.
Thanks Thump,
You are learning a thing or two *lol*.
I think I'm going to break out an old James Brown thang.......I think I'm going to put on "There Was a Time". Yes Sir, I'm going to put James on the box and sing out loud "THERE WAS A TIME". I'm going to do the Camel walk too. Yes sir buddy, I'm going to get lost in some dance a music. Lets see, where is ol'James. Here it is, right next to the Ohio Players..........O. H. I. O. Did they unlease some jams in a short period or what. Anyway, it's on, me and James and my four left feet. I'd better close the windows, cause somebody might call the law.
Hi DD
Hi D.W. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 195
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:32 pm: |
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Ms. Blue, you interest me........you surely do. I've been reading your posts and wondering who is this person. Although your post may be long, they ring of.........well, I can deal with them. I've learned over the years to skim many of these posts because frequently I know where they are going before reaching the end. But yeah, Ms Blueyou, you have my attention. That probably means little to you but like others who don't always post a reply, I'm listening. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 135
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 01:52 pm: |
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It can't be a white cake lambchop, it has to be a moonpie! Construct a huge, huge moonpie and I'll be there. I'll jump out of it with a Ninja suit on and open up a can of whup azz for anyone who wants some.
HaaaaahhaaaaaaHaaaaahhhaaaahhaaaaaahaaaaaaHAHA!
just playin'
"white woman hell" --haahhaaaahaaaaaHAHA
i'm not playin' because I know you're not
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 136
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:09 pm: |
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Cynique,
I'm not a "glutton for punishment". I remember you writing how you have "chilled" as you have become older, so have I. I just take it with a grain of salt and move on. I know what I believe and what I don't. Because you respect "energy" I needn't explain anything else, I'm sure you understand.
Anyway, let me know about the Viggo thing, I'd luv it, luv it, luv it, luv it!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:12 pm: |
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Bluefreezy,
First. I apologize for my prior responses to you. You are 'new' here and are probably not accustomed to the degree of sarcasm we (okay, mostly 'I') unfurl around here. So please forgive the tone of my comments as they were not meant to deal you any specific disrepute.
Thank's for the pedagogical dogma. It made for some interesting reading while I bathe lastnite. (Let your fantasies run wild, ladies!)
Seriously, though. Look. I know you're an educator. So you gottah deal your deal. But, again, ALL DAT STUFF will fall by the wasteside when it becomes as important to most Black foks to educate their children as it is to score that Fendi bag and that Range Rover.
Because the truth is we collectively just are not interested enuff in educating our kids. We are not. WE....ARE...NOT!
Too many of us spend more time satisfying our own immediate, individual needs and desires. Then, when are kids are grown and screwing up, we conveniently forget all of the television we let them watch, the parent-teacher conferences we missed and the money spent on the Mercedes that might have been better spent on private/catholic school and/or tutors & other worthy afterschool programs.
Organize with other parents (I have.). Pay for private schooling/tutoring (I have.). Form tutoring co-operatives (I have.). Homeschool (I have.).
And I'm going to say something that must be said emphatically that is not intended specifically to you but simply MUST be said: You think I am going to let a DUMB@$$ like George W. Bush dictate how MY KIDS are educated? If you believe THAT, you must be out of your NATURAL mind!
I find it a mortal affront to everything that I am that a man whom I could lap +4 times on an IQ test would even consider himself even remotely worthy of dictating what MY KIDS should know and do. The world may be crazy. But I sure as hell am not. No, me and my kids will dictate what my kids learn. Not some nimrod member of the luckysperm club who couldn't find his @$$ from a whole in the floor.
So when people start b'ing/moaning about "No Child Left Behind", I can't help but laugh. Because my kids are going to "make it" regardless of what those lamebrain jokers in DC conjure up. And is only when all people, particular Black people believe that and act accordingly, things will improve.
But hey. Maybe that's just me. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 660
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:18 pm: |
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this broad is soooooooo damn tired! she searches the archives and steals black phrases to make herself feel like she "belongs" even stealing Carey's nickname for Lambd! No class. she wouldn't now can of whoopazz from a can stankazz! then again, maybe she does... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1041
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:20 pm: |
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Lambd,
HAHA!
That "white woman hell" is a scrait-up keeper. (I keep getting this visual of a laughing Martha Steward sticking a fiery pitchfork into a brotha's @$$.)
Man. You are so funny sometimes I can't stand your @$$. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:26 pm: |
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I was going to say "I can't stand [Lambd's] 'black@$$' ". But I didn't want Yukio and A_womon getting angry with me.
HEHE! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 138
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:49 pm: |
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You know what "No Child Left Behind" has really done? Just created more paper work for the teachers who are already underpaid.
I went to breakfast with my mother and sybling (who's a teacher) this morning. We talked about the this very topic for quite a bit. My sybling was also telling me how at a friends school (the friend is also a teacher) the principle announced to the staff that there are "no excuses" for them (the teachers). What that means for the staff is that they are totally accountable for the grades/success of the students, regardless that a whopping majority of these kids (in this particular district) enter hell when they go home.
Teachers aren't paid to teach and be the mommy and daddy.
My mother said half her day is spent baby-sitting and "home-training"!
That stuff is garbage, sorry.
The gap would not be as wide if parents would be willing to be half the bridge. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 471
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:53 pm: |
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Then you complete the thought by saying it anyway! How fearless are you, right? |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 472
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:58 pm: |
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Moonsigns, you better duck and grab some cover, girl, cause you got it coming for sure!
I can't afford to waste none of my good chocolate on no peck, shorty. Sorry. It's the white cake or nothin'. It's like drawing a roadmap for people like Abm who don't mind jumpin' in the mix wit raw meat. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 473
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:14 pm: |
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Cynique says:"Yukio, my darling, you have the one admirable trait that your 2 detractors lack. You never stoop to petty insults. You always engage people intellectually,"
Even Ray Charles(blind first and then dead) could see that the exchange between me and Yukio is always, always good natured fun. I always mix my salt with sugar when I address BrainBoy. I have never once driven an insult car down his street without first coating the tires with honey. I think Brainboy gets that much. And when he doesn't, I don't mind pointing it out to him...I know he slow sometimes...Did you see how I did that? I think ol' Ray would have seen it a mile away. But then I guess it takes a different kind of intellect to first recognize, and then appreciate the way I 'stoop'. I often remind Yukio to bring his catcher's mitt and step ladder when I'm bout to direct something his way. Maybe he should bring extra for those of you who think his 'detractors' are just 'petty'. (Oh. In case any of that went over anyone's head, that's what the catcher's mitt and the step ladder are for...so you can catch it next time.) See how I did that? I wouldn't want to come off 'petty' and leave my detractors in the wind...
Yukio: Just in case, no offense. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 139
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:26 pm: |
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I got some coming and I got some to give
please, you know I'm just kidding because I would never put myself in any situation to be scratched up, nor do I fight like a beast --it's more than unlady-like. I leave that stuff for men.
I won't be coming to your party and I don't want to anyway --you're mean to me. (i'm being sarcastic because I really don't care)
Take care lambd
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 474
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:31 pm: |
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I have notice that other folks don't use no sweetner with their black azz coffee! How petty is that thurr? How much intellect does that take?
Then you have some that have perfected the style of he indirect insult whereby they want you to know that they do not approve of you by directing their posts to someone else...niiiiice! But not quite as intellectual....less petty....but not quite as clever. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 475
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:39 pm: |
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Now my feelings are hurt! and aint nobody been mean to your racist azz, anyway Whitegurl! You aint coming to my party cuz you think your Moonbuddie Cynique got a wild hurr whurr the sun don't shine and she aint comin'! Well you may as well pack you thangs cuz I'll go and kidnap CeeCee and brang hur in chains if I hafta! You may not be comin' cuz you think you gonna be the only peck in the group...Well, we gonna have plenty a crackers for the horse duuvers! And somebody gotta park the cars! Hell I can't trust the brothas around here to park them cars. Not the way them younguns around here be stealin'! And them Hessays aint allowed around here. So if you know any white boys that need some work and aint afraid to park cars in the ghetto, brang 'em witchu! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 476
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 03:43 pm: |
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If I told you Viggo white azz wuz throwing me a party and he will be readin' a truckload of his poetry as a special favor to me, would you hump that white tail up the road then? You know you got some deepseated jungle lust for Abm you need to tend to! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1219
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 04:17 pm: |
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Lambd, you guys rake Yukio over the coals, and then after the "damage" is done, you confess that you were only kiddin. Yukio doesn't really need me to run interference for him, but it seemed like he was being ganged up on. We can move on.
Especially since I'm in a frame of mind to attend a party. Anything to escape this War of the Words! I could do with a little piece - oops I mean peace. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 480
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 04:24 pm: |
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We all outta 'little' piece's up in here, mommie!
OOps! I mean peace. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 481
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 04:27 pm: |
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Anyway, Yukio knows what time it is. There is no way I can match wits with him intellectually, so I always end up attempting a clever insult to sidestep the issue. He recognizes it and deals with it. He's a big brain...Ooops! I mean boy! He's a big boy! See, I did it again! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 04:29 pm: |
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Cynique,
But you gottah admit this kid keeps asking for it. I mean, did he REALLY think he was going to call out the Almighty Thumper (right after his 'divine' return) and get away with it?
What's that famous movie line: "At some point, a man's gottah no' his limitations."?
Okay, I for one will TRY to cut Yukio some slack.
And hey. If it is just a "little piece" you need (operative word being "little"), I am sure Lambd can much oblige. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 140
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 04:33 pm: |
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Nope. I could go see Viggo minus the drama of a cat fight. Again, I save that mess for the beasts, be they male or female.
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent." -Isaac Asimov
That quote could apply here, as well as to certain situations in the world *cough cough*
btw, a racist is someone who discriminates based on the belief that some races are by nature superior. I think that speaks more of your girl --the one who vomits at the sight of black men with white women. She thinks she is the better choice because of her race. Now that lambchop, that is a racist.
If you think I'm a racist because I want my children to be a positive contribution to the black community, your theory is mad. If you can't admit to me that parents, especially parents of black children, need to be absolutely vigilant in raising their children despite such grim stats, you're in denial. It doesn't make me a racist to admit that they have to work to beat the rate at which these stats are climbing, it makes me responsible in making sure I do everything possible to help them not to be another walking, breathing, lifeless number --that the government has never passionately cared about in the first place. You calling me a racist is a petty way of getting around this relevant issue. I care so much about these issues, and much more than you give me credit for. So stop it, please.
You ARE mean to me.
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 141
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 04:41 pm: |
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About my "deepseated jungle lust" for Abm, whatever. There is no lust when you know what it is about --and there is no such thing as jungle fever. Fever is fever no matter where you are --HAHA!
Anyway, when I think of Abm, I think he would proably look like Leon Harris --a news anchor out of DC. Plug his name into yahoo and check him out --that is how I imagine Abm.
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Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 04:42 pm: |
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yep. i'm abd. my degrees are in english english education and curriculum and intruction. but this isn't a resume!
carey, glad to know that you are interested. too funny that you should mention james brown. i am cranking the godfather as we speak:
"you got your high heel sneakers on/ and you're steppin' new.... you're more than alright/ you know you're outta sight!" i get going with jb most mornings.
and brother ray charles-- i been missing him more than ever these days! pulled out an old video from back in 1981 last night and once again was amazed. always a flawless, seamless performance. wow. we really lost some big chunks of history in these recent years, huh? |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 483
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 05:01 pm: |
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I don't mean to be mean to you Moonsigns! I guess I'm just your average, run-of-the-mill, violent, black, s.o.b., that doesn't give a shytt about the betterment of my community or my children's education and should just leave it to the white women that feel like they could do a much better job simply because they are white and they are women at the same time. You know that makes them smarter than blacks in general, and more nurturing than black men...Wait a minute, that was sexist and racist. I guess I shouldn't have said that. Sorry, Moonwalker. I wouldn't want to become another stat, or kill a fellow black man, cuz you know massa don't want no black-on-black crime! I suppose that black chile I got raisin' my kids is wastin' her time goin' to dem conferences and PTA meetin' and keepin' after them girls to stay on honor roll. I must be wastin' my money payin' for tutors because my daughters were concerned when they didn't get as high on the math part of the standardized test as the wanted to, even though it was the part that they wouldn't even get in school until the following year. Am I rambling again? That's probably cuz Ize jez an igrant nigga an I sho wish there wuz some nice white lady to come and raise my daughters for me cuz I sho iz tired of runnin' em to the library and the book sto' and buyin' two computers in three years even tho I been using the same stank one at my house since '97. I know if I check out the line of white women that's waitin' to adapt black teens and educate 'em properly, one of 'em can do a betta job than me o' dey mamma. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1222
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 05:24 pm: |
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Would somebody do me a favor and start a new thread???? We got 2 or 3 different conversations going on here. I was about to see about going to a party and gettin me little peace and then Lambd goes into his rant, expending his energy on other things. Dayum. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 662
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 05:46 pm: |
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I am going to say this one time only Moonsigns, You whiteazz, wannabee wish you could get some a my flava, azz Killabee. Leave me or any insinuations about me OUT of ya conversation. You have been spewing ya racists azz garbage since you rolled ya misfit azz up on this corner. You aint sh*t aint you aint got sh*t but a big azz ego to go along witcha big fake azz mouth that you TRY to work up in here. And if you got such a fine black azz man lovin up on ya wannabee azz then why are you spending so much of that fakeazz energy buzzing around me, who has made it no secret that I think, NO I Know you are nothing more than a racist pig, an outcast among your own so you drag ya TIED azz nonsense up in here!
I got no holla for you ya ignorant azz chick, can you understand that?? so keep ya stank azz remarks directed toward those who welcome you with open arms and want to hear the DUMB STUPID ISH that you spout which Makes NO Sense to me, but hey to each ITS own (yes I said ITS as in MOONsigns, Queen of Beasts)!
Talkin bout a fakeazz killah b! YOU put the "B" in beast, you been funkin up the air in here ever since you landed on this board with a splat like a big azz pile of cow sh*t! COW being the operative word. witcha smelly azz.
If hating your corn grown azz makes me a racist, then I AM HAPPY to be one, okay? Yes I said it and I have NEVER tried to hide it.
and to set the record straight, it is YOU, MOONSIGNS no other white broad YOU that I can't stand, so spin ya bullsh*t someplace out my arena
I want my space clean! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 142
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 05:56 pm: |
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Lambd,
It's not like that --nothing like that. I won't convince you of anything different.
Peace be.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1224
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:13 pm: |
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A-womon, don't you understand why what you say doesn't discourage Moonsigns? It rolls right of her back because she doesn't place any importance on your opinion, especially when it's couched in angry inflammatory language. She has won, and you have lost. Why is that? Because she doesn't care what you think and you care too much about she thinks. I don't mean to disparage Moonsigns because I like her as a person. But in this world, in this country, cold white confidence will neutralize helpless black rage every time. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 663
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:30 pm: |
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whatever cynique, that is YOUR opinion. Why is it that you and abm refuse to let this chick speak for herself????? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 664
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:33 pm: |
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and cynique, if indeed what I say rolls off her back why does she continually include me in her conversation? Puhleeze. you can continue to champion her cause all you like, it DON't cost me nothing. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 486
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:35 pm: |
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Cynique, what I see is completely different. I see her coming off as this sweet, inner-peace-spewing, moon worshipper one minute, and an uppidity racist that gets her kicks taunting A_woman the next. Why some of you refuse to see that what she said and how she said it smacks of racism, I don't know. I do know she got called on it and she is still allowed to taunt A_woman unchecked except by me, Carey, and from time to time undercover by Yukio. This is an African American forum. I believe it should be open to everyone, but also believe that Moonsigns has a responsibility to the people that post here. She needs to recognize that this is a sanctuary for Blacks and that she needs to address it as such and respect it as such. I haven't gotten my reparations yet. Maybe some of you have via email. Enlighten me, please, if that is the case. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 487
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:38 pm: |
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I'm sorry if you didn't like my 'rant', Cynique. I thought it would be a little spice added to the boring stew that was on the stove already. Forgive me. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 488
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:40 pm: |
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Besides, most of the stuff Moonie says A_woman doesn't even respond to. Its like she lets it build up or something. She must be growing. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 665
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:42 pm: |
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Thank you Lambd for telling it like it T-I-S! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 666
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:49 pm: |
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I take that back cynique you and abm do allow her to speak for herself so long as she is the one hurling insults my way, she is to be cheered, "ooooooh look at the white chick, she said something back to a-womon, ooooooo she aint no punk" and that type ish.
But the moment I serve her up some of her own haterade in a cup, you or abm are right there trying to take the cup out of her hand and drink it for her! Please, I am beyond caring about your opinion when it comes to moonsigns, cynique. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 489
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:55 pm: |
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Look, I know that chile didn't mean it the way it came out. We are all guilty of that. I just think she should have reread what she posted, acknowledged it, and corrected it. Instead it just rolled. Like it was cool up in here. Like we all punks. Like white folks can take our dignity up in here, at will, up in here, too. Then deny any wrongdoing has been done. Lots of white folks didn't see the harm in slavery because having slaves was all they knew. Being slaves was all some of our ancestors knew...Does that make it alright? Does that mean that they don't have to acknowledge the disrespect, the inhumanity? The damage that can be tracked for centuries? Does that give them the right to barge into our sanctuary and fart loud and stank and pretend like its everyone else's? Stop trying to be like them, man! We are better than that! Hiphop is mines! Jazz is mines! Kobe is mines! Cosby, whether you believe or not, whether he believes it or not is mines! Can any of what I'm saying make sense to any one of you? I can't make it no simpler...I'm done. I won't waste anymore of Thumper's space tonight, and I won't bore Cynique with anymore of my rants. Goodnight. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1226
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 06:59 pm: |
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Well, since you have become Thumper's spokesperson, a-womon, I'll let it go at that. I hope you don't wake up crying again tomorrow morning because you have really invested a lot of yourself into something that seems only to frustrate you. Whatever. I'll leave you and Lambd to play footsies. I don't know about you folks but I am burned out and I am outta here. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1227
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 07:09 pm: |
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Well, since you have become Thumper's spokesperson, a-womon, I'll let it go at that. I hope you don't wake up crying again tomorrow morning because you have really invested a lot of yourself into something that seems only to frustrate you, and quiet as it's kept, me, you and Lambda all need to get a life! Whatever. I'll leave you and him to play footsies. I don't know about you folks but I am burned out and I am outta here. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 667
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 07:12 pm: |
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I was never the one crying, I would never cry about anything said on this board, that was KB that was crying over something abm said
SHEESH!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 668
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 07:30 pm: |
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and for the record, my arena is NOt this board, cynique, I was telling Moonsigns to stay out of my space (arena) not aalbc, so I don't know where you got that I'm trying to be Thumper's spokeperson
But you are absolutely right, I do need to get a life!!
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Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 143
Registered: 07-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 07:56 pm: |
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Cynique,
You made some interesting points, but I do have to let you know something, I have dealt with nasty white women as well. This isn't about race, but about people who infringe on the rights of others because they are intolerant. In this case it happens to be A_womon who just happens to be black. Next week it could a white woman who I encounter in a meeting at work. The week after that it could be an Asian woman telling me it's much better for people to be with their "own" (I have had that happen). I know because of the dynamics here (black forum) and the racist world outside of here, it may look like "cold white confidence" --but it's not --not in my case at least! When I was younger I would keep pretty quiet when people would run their mouth. As I got older I became angry. Now that I feel confident as a young woman I don't put up with the garbage, especially when I don't do anybody any harm and mind my own. When a person wants to look at my garden from a distance and criticize, so be it. However, when they want to get in my garden and stomp on my flowers, my vipers will bite --no matter what gender, faith, or race one is.
This is why I let it roll off my back. I say what I have to say and that is it. I have been an angry woman before, before I knew about self-control and how to become aware of my own energy, as well as others. As women, either we take these learning lessons and grow, or we slowly and bitterly die (in all respects) --all the while, hurting no one but ourselves.
I don't view this as "I won" and "she lost" either. As women, when one is wounded, we all are in some kind of way. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 08:14 pm: |
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Bluefreezy,
So I am sorry if I offended you.
Don't mind me too much. I am Aries. I tend to on occassion "rage on". Usually, I calm down. And regret some of my behavior.
I am okay with you. I hope that you are with me.
I agree with you that not everyone who makes it is especially literate. But I think we would both agree that your chances in life are markedly improved when you have a solid command of "Standard English".
And the whole Tyson/R.Kelly thing set me off because they are hardly the kind of examples that you or I would want our children to emulate.
Your "01:03 pm" post offer what appear to the some sound advice on how we can improve education. I just wish it didn't take me gettin' 'etnick' on you to PULL'em outtah yah.
I think, though, what your (and that of many other educators) advice lack is a tasty enuff 'carrot'.
See. Our kids spend over 12 years in school before they are able to make any real/viable association between what they learn and how that will benefit them. Therefore, I would add to your suggestions the following:
@ Form interships and tutoring between local businesses and schools to offer kids as young as 12 the opportunity to both learn and begin to know what is required to earn a living based on some facet of what they are already studying in school. This would also allow them to build valuable associations, employment record and companionships.
@ Schools, communities, churches and neighborhoods should celebrate academic achievement as vigorously as achievement in athletic/entertainment. The local kid who scores an academic scholarship should be glorified as proudly as one who scores a Division I basketball scholarship. And the kid who studies microbiology should be treated as if he has an NBA contract.
@ We ALL need to REALLY begin to talk with our daughters about how to judge the character of who they should date/love/marry...at an EARLY age. Our girls are going to have to start to call out from our boys their better angels. We've got to curb some of this "thug passion" that our girls have become enamored with.
For example, I continually tell my daughters to be careful not to over look that nerdy boy who sitting in a corner by himself READING while the 'cute' guys are joking and shooting spitballs. Because, when all is said/done and they understand how the world REALLY works, nerdboy is may be the one who they'll want to marry and have kids with. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 233
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 09:29 pm: |
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Hello All,
It seem that I have to hit the ground running here.
A_womon you wrote: Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 05:46 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am going to say this one time only Moonsigns, You whiteazz, wannabee wish you could get some a my flava, azz Killabee. Leave me or any insinuations about me OUT of ya conversation. You have been spewing ya racists azz garbage since you rolled ya misfit azz up on this corner. You aint sh*t aint you aint got sh*t but a big azz ego to go along witcha big fake azz mouth that you TRY to work up in here. And if you got such a fine black azz man lovin up on ya wannabee azz then why are you spending so much of that fakeazz energy buzzing around me, who has made it no secret that I think, NO I Know you are nothing more than a racist pig, an outcast among your own so you drag ya TIED azz nonsense up in here!
Girl, what in the hell is this? *eyebrow raised* I suggest you slow your roll. You and Moonsign don't see eye to eye. OK, I get that. But that crap you spewing right there, is uncalled for. Like Prince said, "Act your age, not your shoe size." Quick, Cynique what song is that line from?
Everyone: I did not mean for my post to Yukio to be a "Open Season" declaration.
Bluefreezy: Welcome, welcome, welcome! I have been reading your posts and I am liking your groove.
Cynique: You wound me. When have I ever needed a spokesman?
ABM: I see the points you're making, but what do we do with the boys? We can't just let them run free and wild, without a ruter. When did stupidity, especially among our youth, become so damn fashionable? It's gotten to the point where I can't stand to hear them talk to each other cause they sound so stupid! Maybe we've made it too easy for them. Sure we need to talk to all of our children, but I believe that we need to start making them face the consequences of their actions instead of excusing and ignoring it away. And another thing, it is painfully obvious that we, as a community, don't see fit in becoming that village that many of us were raised by. What happened to that? In our move to become upper mobile and trying to make ourselves over in the white man's image, we sacrificed many of the things that made us strong. What happened to those days when Strangers seeing children doing wrong was allowed to get in their grip, tell the parents so that the parents could get into the children's grip again? Where did those days go? Why are people paying for these silly a__ hairstyles for these girls when none of them have a library card? What's up with that?
I'm going out on a limb here and simply saying that instead of creating all these new theories, we go on back to the old ways of doing things: when boys were not allowed to lay up in their mama's house with no jobs and got 4-6 kids that he ain't paying support for, and these girls ain't sitting at their mama's house with 4 kids by the time she's 18 years old; when parents didn't uphold their children wrong doing. Yeah, talk is good, but we're passed the talking stage now. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 145
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 10:02 pm: |
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Thumper,
I totally agree with the last paragraph in your most recent post! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:08 pm: |
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Thumpers,
Good point. I left out what must be done with the brothers.
Man! We've got A LOT a work to do there! Don't we.
Well, I think your last paragraph in part addresses the problem of dealing with the boys. Guys have got to get out from under their mamas and go raise their sons, then make their son's tails leave home, to go raise THEIR kids.
But, I will say this to the point of convulsion: Black men won't improve until they can educate, hire and fire each other. Because I believe a large part of the problem is we lack the raw power to impose/maintain standards of behavior and ethic upon each other. Thus, a sense of communal responsibility is, at best, tenuous.
But when brothers are hiring/firing each other, we can then tell a no-count negligent husband and deadbeat @$$ father to go take care of his kids or I'm gonna fire your Black @$$ so you won't have that Beemer and money to go off chasin' and impregnating other women.
I have A LOT more to say on this subject. But give me a few moments. Because I've got to take my daughters out for ice cream. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 01:18 am: |
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Lambd,
You are kidding. Right?
Oh. So I should defend behavior I do not agree with or support SIMPLY because the person is Black? Man. You must be trippin.
REALITY CHECK:
How much can hip/hop be "yours" when over 80% of it is being purchased by frail-tail suburban White kids? Kobe certainly ain't YOURS. And judging by his choice in wife (and hotel hoochies and/or rape victims) he certainly ain't a Black woman's either. Man. Kobe doesn't even think anything about what his own birth family think. You think he gives 2-bits-of-a-@#$% what you/I think/feel about him? Guess what? Jazz would dead-n-stankin' if WHITE PEOPLE weren't supporting it. And I am STILL waiting for the ol' great and self-righteous Coz's to call-out the White executives of the companies that help spew the crap that perpetuates the dysfunctionality among "lower class" Black people that he's now bellyaching about.
See. All this Black rage stuff makes you feel good for a few moments. But at the end of the day, it is about the truth. Not what we want it to be, think it should be or what it might be. No, to quote the ever quotable A_womon: "IT IS WHAT IT IS." And a lot of this blindly lookin' out for the brothah man stuff..."IS"...crap. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 197
Registered: 05-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 06:24 am: |
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Lambchop, I doubt if what you are saying is sinking in. I know exactly what you and A_woman have been trying to say. It's not about the issues it's about having a place free of Betty Crocker. Somewhere we can go without having to deal with THAT on ANY level at any time.....period. They may well be "right" or "cool" but I don't even want to visit it, not here! Talking race with Trent and Amy is useless.
A_Womon, I know you went off when Thump checked you but hold up, the man was right to do so. I know it's not Yukio season but I have to use him as an example. He refuses to get it, he will not acknowledge his errors without a "yeah but"........a loooooong "yeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaahhhhhhh bbbbuuuuuuuuuttttttttt. Thump called you out because your post was straight-up, in your face, ahhhhh.....in your face. Your words had no skirts on them. We all know what a person is really saying when they use F(*&% or B(*&h but (and I can't explain why or don't want to) there's a right way and a wrong way to put your thang down. Sure, it means the same thing but that's the way it is......period. That's the way it is! Lampchop hit on it, he even tipped his hat to those that use that form of "debate". Check this out, you make the call.
You're standing in a tight room and your friend's breathe is foul, what is the best way to tell them.
A). God damn man/girl your breathe smells like sh*&, got the whole room smelling like bootyhole!
B). Hey joe, what did you have to eat today, it's close up in here and I think I'm smelling your lunch?
Here's another:
You're at a strangers door for whatever reason and thier dog runs up to you and starts that smellin' thang, which you disapprove of, what do you say?
A). HEY, come get this stankin' M*&^%F*&k mutt of yours out here smellin' my asshole.
B). I'm not fond of animals, especially those that run up on me.
Last one:
You're having dinner with a few of your co-workers and their spouses and you notice a white girl giving your man special attention which you disapprove of. How should a person convey that.
A). Look here Bitch, I don't know what the F*&^ you think you're doing but you better take your stringy ass hair on out of here before I kick you Square up in that Smelly P(*&^%& you trying to throw on my man.
B). Excuse me, I noticed you talking with my guy and if I didn't know better it looked like you were giving him some action. I know that's not the case but........maybe I should ask, is it?
Now A_women, I know these illustrations are a bit offline but I think you get my point. There's a way to say things that don't bite on the ear that's acceptable to society. That's all we are really saying. Yes, they may be saying the same thing but there are unspoken rules of behavior that just are.....they have been given the green light. Again, I don't know why, but they are.
Booty, Butt, A(&h(*&, back, wagon, moneymaker and round eye, all speak of the same thing but which one to use in the right situation is not hard to figure out. Okay, that's enough. I could have done this several ways and a lot better but hey, you know what I'm talking about. Maybe someone else can work with it??? |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 146
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 12:30 pm: |
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Carey,
I have always been taught to respect my elders, however, that doesn't mean they are always in the right. For as much wisdom and life experience you have, I expected more from you. For every comment you write about me, you always use some term like "Betty Crocker", "Amy, "them", "stringy ass hair" --as old as you are, it's immature and a way of handling something you don't know how to. When you attempt to insult me by using stereotypical terminology you only reflect your inability to deal with the issues at hand --issues that you, yourself wrote as being something that "they well may be "right" about, but you just can't "visit" --whatever. You may have lived through much of the stuff none of else have, however, the next generation has made (and taken) strides in changing the world as you knew it.
I don't know why you think there is any place in this world that any of us could go where we will be with people who share our race, same views and opinions all the time --it's unrealistic -even in a "black" forum.
You and every other person who is unwilling to be open and discuss things, regardless of age and race, is more part of the problem rather than the solution. The world is full of people who are different. Even in your "own" circles your "own" will bytch slap you, screw you and leave you for dead (spiritually and physcially). I thought by now you would have learned this. Being with your "own" doesn't make you any safer and we could all testify to that, regardless of race, gender, and faith.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1051
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 01:03 pm: |
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Carey,
I hear what you are saying having our own place without "Betty Crocker" (Haha!). And to some degree and certain instances, I believe we should have that. But the question is how can we in good conscience blatantly exclude others from what is a free/open forum? And does our excluding said others from such a forum reflect well upon us? See. Because I believe when you start embracing and doing the evil your adversary does, you fortify their right/ability to continue to practice said evil upon you.
Think about it. Is that what we REALLY want to be a part of?
Now, I know recently it has appeared as though I have defended Moonsigns. But the truth is I have tried to preclude A_womon from becoming what she would accuse Moonsigns' kind of being/doing. Because I think it is only via maintaining an open, yet indeed wary, mind do we remain free to grow/prosper.
Because even though I may appear to side here or there, truth is, some of my views about education, socialization, manhood, childrearing, sexuality, etc. that are in some ways so paradoxically radical yet draconian, they would likely make both A_womon and Moonsigns pi$$ their Hanes panties.
And, really, Moonsigns could come or go.
Rather, I think it is more important that we preserve the spirit of freedom/openness. Because I believe the spirit and will of our people here will prevail. Whether her designs be righteous or malevolent, Moonsigns ain't so powerful that she's gonna mentally overpower anyone around here. Oh. In case you don't know (though I would find it regrettable), you are all free to ignore her.
As I said before, I believe the hullabaloo surrounding Moonsigns will dwindle, and she'll either settle into a more benign fitting into the eclectic tapestry of this 'great and haloed land' we call Thumper's Corner...or fade away into the cybernetic ether.
Lastly, maybe we should consider what has transpired here as an opportunity to review, modify and/or fortify what we truly think/feel and how we behave. Because if we have manage to do that, by my view at least, we will all for the better.
Because steel is made in fire!
PS: I would add to the options you gave A_womon offering my halitosis friend some Tic/Tacs. Hehe!
Moonsigns,
(Carey, I hope you don't mind my intrusion. )
From what little I can gather about him, Carey comes from a place and time when guys like him were mutilated and killed just for looking crossways at chicks like you. So I REALLY don't think you want to "go there". |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1228
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:10 pm: |
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My feeling about this situation has always been that if I went to a white discussion board and wanted to discuss pertinent issues with the posters there, and I was met with the kind snide hostility and outright venom that was directed at Moonsigns, I would've made my exit shaking my head. And what has transpired here has reinforced the notion that bigotry is not exclusive to any race, and when it rears its ugly head, it accomplishes nothing. I've been accused of siding with Moonsigns, but I didn't. I really didn't take any side because I knew nothing I said would've made any difference. I just related to her on another level, because she is moonstruck like me. Anyway, it is also pertinent to note that I'm of a generation different than almost all of the other posters on this board, which is why always in the back of my old Clairol Medium Golden Brown head is a little voice saying that the truth hurts, but the truth is what will set people free. I don't pretend to know exactly what the truth is, but I do know that in the big picture, as much as we would wish otherwise, Life is not fair. I know I haven't offered much of anything here but wistful philosophizing, but mine is an overview of the vexing issue of race and in closing I'd like to request that all y'all stop yawning. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1230
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:19 pm: |
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BTW, Thumper, the quote "act your age, not your shoe size" is from Prince's "Kiss". (like you didn't know. LOL) And when I referred to a-womon being your "spokesperson" I was being sarcastic. (no surprise here, huh?) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:28 pm: |
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Cynique,
You don't know how enraptured I am that we have found an issue upon which we (appear to) agree. I am so giddy right now, parts of me are justabout 'exploding' all over!
BTW: Man. It's a small world. Because I think "Clairol Medium Golden Brown" is the same color my mama wears. Hehe! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 670
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:32 pm: |
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HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Carey, your post is funneeeee as HELL!!! Man, you really know how to spell it out! :P I am going to be CRACKING UP THE REST OF THE DAY!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
But anyway, ok I stand corrected you and Thumper are right, I could have said what I had to say differently without diminishing the meaning of my post. |
Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 02:51 pm: |
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This is STILL going on????
Moonsigns--I think the time has come for you to really be honest with yourself and ask yourself what PURPOSE are you fullfilling here.
I also think you need to "empathize", racially, with a group of human beings who have never been allowed to have themselves...to themselves...who (because of your white children, historically,)...have not been allowed to rule their own countries, own their own land or have their own separate identity and culture that wasn't either 1) STOLEN by your people or 2) Informed and Legislated by your people's HATRED for black humanity in its PURE form.
Regardless of your liberal white woman with (black male) and bi-racial children...you still SYMBOLIZE the naive and arrogant MISS LILY who thinks her presence here...is doing US some kind of favor.
That was CAREY'S POINT...and it was well taken.
Intelligent and heartfelt as you may be...you refuse to FIRST...befriend these people on their own terms and gain their trust and understanding in you. A mistake that I myself made in just assuming that ALL BLACK PEOPLE are ONE people and will immediately understand and TRUST the views of blacks from different backgrounds and foreign acculturations.
The difference...is that I LOVE my people and have been given a very unusual experience in which I have been FORCED to encounter them all over the world...in their varied states and identities...only to realize all the more just how HATED, DESPISED...and "disallowed" they are...(as themselves)...as well as to realize how Self-Destructive and Confused they have been made to become---because of constant ownership and RULE by people from YOUR race and YOUR womb.
I have no hate for WHITES or for you...but I do understand, because of my experience, that I need to LESSEN your impact/presence among my children and that you are...NOT GOOD...for us, as a leader.
You can talk love all you want----but WHEN will someone like you acknowledge that black people FIRST need to be allowed to love themselves...to congregate with themselves and get to establish and insist upon their own image and their own humanity....AS THEMSELVES?
When blacks are allowed to REGAIN their own power in this world and have independent power over their own destiny....THEN, perhaps...we can begin to have the relationships with Whites that you CLAIM to envision. Although, I suspect, that much of your embracing of blacks has to do with the fact that White Supremacy orders and dictates the world....thereby making it very comfortable for you to bask in the spoils that your whiteness wrings out of black people and what they do...for your self esteem.
Truly...no matter how good your intentions, Moonsigns...the fact is...everytime you enter a room or any space...you enter with the full gown and aura of White Supremacy to clothe, protect and imbue YOUR HUMANITY. You have no choice in that...because the SOCIETY, not you, but the society...dictates and bequeaths it.
I really do not dislike you at all (although I completely understand why A_WOMON doesn't like you)...and I still sympathize with your position (no matter how strong, invincible you think you are) as a White woman in a psuedo-black world, much of your IMMEDIATE WORLD being the result of black people's self-hatred and DESPERATION to aquire "status" and "anchorage"---again----regardless of your claims and denials about this.
The very tember of your constant INVECTIONS on these boards...is proof positive that your BLACK MAN is not exactly who you claim he is as a "human being"---and that his marriage to you is obviously based, in some substantial measure, on your WHITENESS---otherwise you wouldn't be in here so arrogantly shoving your Gospel/Politics/Philosophy down our throats and lashing anyone who refuses to "connect" to your offering of togetherness and family.
I lived with a White Jewish man for 5 years. He was married and put me in my own apartment when I was 17.
One afternoon, while I was making him lunch and trying to think of a new exciting way to give him a BJ...I overheard him in the livingroom getting over-excited as he watched two boxers (two black men) beat the living daylights out of each other on the t.v. Screen.
A tremble, a chill like FEVER came over me as I began to serve him his lunch.
He shouted at the screen: "Beat the f... out of that gorilla! Hit 'em!"
It killed something in me--as though I were the one being hit, because it dawned on me who he was...and who I had allowed myself to become (an underpaid WHORE), because I was ignorant, young, not valued by MOST black men (because I'm black like them) and was back then IDEALISTIC about race relations.
Most people...when these red lights flash in IR...dismiss and deny them. They don't see what they don't want to see--that COLOR and STATUS definitely impact emotional and romantic boundries, and that LOVE is not "blind" and that LOVE often is not really the conduit. Have you ever noticed MEN who only happen to fall in love with "BEAUTIFUL" women---and then at around 40, they drop their beauty girl and get a 20 year old?? You really stupid enough to think LOVE had anything to do with their choices in women??? AND AS WELL..notice the high number black men (who are outnumbered 8 to 1 by black females) who amazingly go their entire lives and NEVER ONCE had a serious relationship with a black female that was darker than a brown paper bag?? YOU really racist enough to believe that LOVE had anything to do with how they chose their mates? You think God created a whole race of dark black women--the women he created FIRST--and that he didn't create anyone for whom they would NATURALLY be the "preferrence"??? (Black men will claim it everyday--you've seen it with your own eyes!) In cases with white women married to black men---it's usually the white FEMALE who wants/needs a man so bad that she ignores the signs...the very obvious signs...that he would NOT have chosen her if she wasn't imbued with the STATUS of Whiteness. And that on some level burried deep--he values her whiteness more than he values the black skin that HE is in.
Otherwise, he would do what White men do. Use women from other races for sex and recreation....and MARRY/PROCREATE with his own image...to produce a SON who looks like him and to maintain his POSITION and the position of his RACE and it's domination. No matter what people say about WHITE MEN and "Asian women" or other races of women....the statistics show that White Men overwhelming marry their own women, and they admitt that they want---"white sons" in their own image. Colored mistresses, notwithstanding.
This is where the truth about black men SHOWS in the wash. They can live without a black son in their own image...millions and millions of them. And YOU try to claim that's normal human behavior.
It's not. It's self-hatred and self-destruction, because they have NO WORTH as Black Men or at least they feel that way.
Anyway, I left him (the white guy)...and he never understood why. I went to Israel and began to travel and through experience....found myself.
Found out that I was a black woman and that there was a powerful history behind what that means...and that I had a....RESPONSIBLITY...as a black woman to my people and to black children...to CHANGE this injustice and this hatred for black people. I realized that as a black female and MOTHER.....it would be up to me to "give birth" to a new kind of black child. One of who would not be fodder and pickings for White People and their White ENTITLEMENT.
Because I found myself IN TIME...I also found a wonderful black man who valued me and showed me love--this black man SAVED ME and in choosing me, HONORED HIMSELF...and he gave me two beautiful black sons...who will someday show some other black girls acceptance, value and love. And There is NOTHING wrong...with us choosing and loving ourselves and excluding you.
NOTHING AT ALL.
****I'm not suggesting that your situation with your husband is ANYTHING AT ALL like my experience...I am simply making sure that you understand where I am coming from.
And why I feel the way that I feel, whether I'm right or I'm wrong.
I already understand your position and where you are coming from---that's why I accept you and appreciate your candor. I'm just telling you to get a perspective of WHY your opinions are not flying here.
It's not because you're WRONG...it's because of your "blind spot" and your "idealism".
After the last 400 years in the U.S., there are---believe it or not----a number of blacks who have had ENOUGH with being told what to think and do by whites, and all the RIGHTEOUSNESS and INTELLIGENCE and GOOD INTENTIONS in the world, sugar supreme, are not going to quell and dismiss the truth and reality of black people's PAST...which is a past of tragedy, pain and utter disinfranchisment.
You should be a bigger woman than this, Moonsigns.
You should patiently befriend these people and win their trust--show your HEART and leave your "dictations" at the door.
It's advice, my darling, that I myself have taken of late.
I try hard to make sure that these people understand that my VITROIL comes from a place of intense love for them--and the desire to share my own experience as a black and as an African WITH THEM...because I believe they are MY PEOPLE and that I have riches and resources as a human that they can use.
You obviously feel the same--and refuse to acknowledge the color difference--but you also refuse to see what your color has ALWAYS meant to them, how it has destroyed their lives and ordered their destinies and been a complete, perfect EVIL against them.
RACE is a "social construct"...but COLOR...is NOT.
I have love for you in my heart and love for your children. But I don't necessarily care to know you. Especially when you are assuming the traditional White Lady Talking Down to the Blacks position.
If you're going to stay on this board...you should get a new mantra and stop being such an annoying, fabulist presence.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 671
Registered: 05-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:15 pm: |
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ok cynique and abm,
Here's what the two of you keep skating over:
Suppose either of you did decide to pay a visit to a white board and you told them you were black when you hit the board and they were discussing how the effects of tanning were damaging to the skin and ways they could effectively combat that.
And one of you busted up in there and said
"I don't appreciated you talking about tanning and how it affects your skin. that is offensive to me cause I don't tan and further more, you should be worrying about more pressing issues like why your kids are out there doing ecstasy and hazing each other at the beginning of school year and actually killing one another. You need to focus on that.''
Now, what kind of reception do you think YOU would recieve? Not based on the fact that you were not white, but because you presumed that you could bust into the conversation and instuct them not only on the merits or lack thereof of the conversation, but you go on to tell them how they need to spend time on more pressing issues as YOU view them.
Would race become an issue?? absolutely!! Not necessarily because you were black, but because o f the disrespectful nature of breaking into a conversation without grace, and as though you were ENTITLED to do it!
You guys are always always always screamin that there is a right way and a wrong way to approach a situation. So should a person be excused from doing things properly based on race and because their race might be different from others in the forum they have joined? Should they be given a pass on wrong behavior simply because of race or should they be called to the carpet for breaking the rules like everyone else? Or should you always be thinking
One always has a choice when approaching matters of race when you are not of the race you are addressing, you can be graceful and gracious and set a mood where you may be received well or you can bust through the gate pull up a chair and begin trying to force feed your opinion down others throats. Now if you choose the latter, no matter which scenario dominates be it a black forum or a white one, you should be prepared to take whatever your attitude dictates and not cry and whine about it!! |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:41 pm: |
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mis wys: couldn't have said it better myself. i work everyday with a college full of moon maidens like our own on this board. and BOY am i sick of it! coming in with this pollyanna ish and not even cognizant of how arrogant and worrisome they sound. never acknowledging our history of pain, mistrust, and everything else that comes with our condition, but believing that a kiss on the forehead of a black man and an egocentric, holier than thou diatribe is going to win confidence and hearts in a place that was created for us, by us. this white priviledge thing gets old. fast |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:46 pm: |
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Wysteria and Womon, just keep on venting. I said what I had to say. If you 2 don't like it, it's too bad. tsk-tsk. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 03:56 pm: |
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Moonsigns, are you still hangin around this site, girlfriend? You better get outta Dodge before your computer blows up! It's dangerous up in hur. |
Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 15
Registered: 09-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:23 pm: |
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Cynique, I actually agreed with what you said. That's why I never addressed you.
I also agree with A_Womon and I totally understand her rage.
And I also "understand" Moonsigns and I do like her.......although I'm trying to get her to see that she can't expect to come around black people and start dishing out superlatives and invectives---the history won't allow it.
She has befriend people on their own terms and get their trust. THEN they can understand where she's coming from and not take it seriously.
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Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 199
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:45 pm: |
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Excuse me for a second y'all.
ABM, look man, do you really think any of THAT was necessary. What it was rang so loudly I couldn't hear what you said. What part of the post did you think I needed to be schooled on? Come on man, I thought your were a better man than that. Really, what was your purpose, your motive. I know what it did for me. What>>>>>> "castrated for....." What the F(*K? Get up man. It's obvious you were not talking to me.......was ya? I mean what, what didn't I know that you thought I needed to hear. Think about it, think about your motive, cause you slipped. I'm not going to say what I believe that came from cause I ain't going to come at you like that on this board but brotha you got me thinking different about you. I know that might mean little but stand up. I SAID it is not about the issues and fairness and all that bullshit. Again, maybe you should read ol'girls post.....her's and Blueyou's, cause ahhh you slipped. Now check this out, this is esay,
having been down this road several times, I knew where this was headed, always has and always will, SO, why,why why why. It ain't about somebody cuttin' off somebodies thang long ago either.....what, where did that fit in. Let me check my sack and see if somebody done snuck up in here and helped themselves to some. Yep, it's still here.
And hey, we all knew you and Cyn-Cyn's position and ain't nothing wrong with it and in fact I could be found mirrowing the same same. BUT NOT HERE, this is not the place. So do I disagree with you.......no.
Oh, hey, I might beat you in a foot race "he comes from a time and place" Negro please .
Tell your girl I said, Okay.
Carey
Carey |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 04:54 pm: |
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A_womon,
I disagree the hypothetical scenario you illustrate equates to what Moonsigns has done. But I since we obviously differ, I should probably leave that alone.
I'm not sure what you want from me. I have agreed with Moonsigns where I agree and disagreed with her where I disagree. Hey. If somebody say parents need to be bustin' there @$$e$ to help educated their kids, I am going to say Hallelujah and Amen. And I ain't going to stop to check what kind of comb they use to validate their views.
See. I think where we profoundly differ here is I focus on the relative merits of WHAT one says. You seem to focus on WHO says it.
So, no, I won't be angry/hostile towards Moonsigns simply because you chose to be. Because, frankly, I just am not particular put-off about anything she's done here. Yeah, she's got the Pollyanna White Girl thing going. But I have seen/heard much worse.
And, frankly, if Moonsigns has indeed become a 'monster' YOU are (perhaps unexpectedly) her 'Dr. Frankenstein'.
I think it might be wise to allow Miss_wysteria to carry the standards of this issue.
Bluefreezy,
The only cure for your feelings is for Blacks to build businesses, families and SCHOOLS that are independent of and competitive with Whites. Then, believe me, those White chicks won't be as smug. |
Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 16
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 05:15 pm: |
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BlueFreezy, thank you.
I live in California--in a "reserved community" where my man and I are the ONLY black couple.
There are 18 black men in this community--every single one of them is with a White, latin or Asian woman.
Their bi-racial children are so WHITE IDENTIFIED that they hate to speak me and my kids on the countryside....and I've seen these mixed kids ask their BLACK fathers: "WHy is your hair like that?"
Girl, we were at the "lake" fishing and one of these mixed kids told his father---"It's too hot out here, daddy. Mommy said come indoors--you're already too black as it is."
And he was so EMBARRASSED in front of me and my sons--and my princes really do look like tiny baby versions of Denzel and Tupac. Dark, goodlooking black boys. They just stared at that man.
Just one afternoon with these MOON wives, Blue---and you will see immediately that they were chosen for "status" and expressly because they are NOT BLACK.
Talk about..."materialistic". These are the most materialistic, superior, nagging women you've ever seen. And if I come around--they start "imitating" black women. Girlfriend this...and "no he didn't!" that.
And out of 18 women--only 3 are pretty!! (the latina one is drop-dead BEAUTIFUL, but she's having an affair with the WHITE MAN who stocks the lake).
None of these black men can look me (or Thomas) in the eye--and when I speak (deliberately using my THICKEST accent)--they just about turn gray around the gills. Because they KNOW I don't respect them....and they KNOW...that they wish they had MY SONS and not the ones they ended up with.
These men don't even know any black women--yet they put down black women at every opportunity, because it makes their white, liberal Moon Wives feel "comfortable and justified". And believe me...they really do act as though the "Black Woman" is the black man's downfall...and that this is why he's always been on the bottom of the world. Being with a White woman is supposed to guarantee him a new...and brighter FUTURE.
Of course...I'm the most hated and ignored human being in this entire community. And that's because I'm a REAL and TOTAL bitch..I admitt it..on purpose.
Every day.
I don't allow my sons to play with their children and I'm moving my boys away from California as soon as I'm financially able to do so.
Luckily, my man is a black man from a strong foreign Afrocentric black culture and he teaches our sons about their identity and sets an example of "black love" and "black responsibility" in front of them--without me even having to ask him to do it. He also makes it a point to praise black women and his own Belizian culture when he's around the black men and IR couples that surround us--you've never seen "weak" BM until you come to California. I swear to GOD--when I went back to D.C. and was around REAL black people again and especially when I ran into LAMBD's fine, black behind--I wanted to defect from California right then and there.
IR out here...have always got this chip on their shoulder like they have to PROVE that they're better "template" for the black community. AN IMPROVEMENT on us. Or some of these black men out here say---"We're evolving."
Can you believe that?
Their kids look like palefaced billygoats--and most of them grow up to marry WHITE, thus creating more white folks---and these Knee-grows will tell you, "We're evolving."
The GOVERNMENT moved me here--it's a long story. Dont' ask.
But it's not that I don't WANT to embrace Moonsigns....or that I can't relate to her views....it's just that...
GOD BLESS HER.
I have to fight to save my own children.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 672
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 05:23 pm: |
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Cynique,
my view about how moonsigns should be treated based on her entrance on this board, is no less valid than your winning proclamations of "cold white confidence" triumphing over all! pUh lease that is YOUr belief, that phrase was probably started by a white chick that got her behind kicked and tried to pretend it didn't hurt. Heat will dissipate cold any day of the week.
Miss Wyst:
I think you should stop trying to get approval from cynique on this issue. Who cares if she agrees or not? You made some very valid points, so if cynique gets off from fanatasizing about, and championing the causes of whites, let her. Her word is not the end all and be all of who is right. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1056
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 06:36 pm: |
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Carey,
I am somewhat confused by your response. I read both your and my post a couple of times and I still can't quite glean how I might have offended you.
And I didn't say anything about you or anyone else being "castrated".
I guess all I was trying to say is...Ah, hell! Screw that. Since I don't know I did wrong, I will just assume I messed up and just apologize.
I most humbly beg your forgiveness, Sir. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 147
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 10:02 pm: |
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miss wysteria,
I respect the way in which you raise your sons. They should be proud of who they are, as should any child. I know there are things that you feel I need to learn about being around black people. I will think about that.
Just as you said I have to accept the drama that I have married into, well, you must accept that some white women have already accepted this. You must be willing to understand that when we do, the same issues that you face raising your black sons are some of the very same things we face raising our black biracial children. I'm not sharing to get a "one up" because I'm white, but sharing the fact that I have witnessed (by being married to the man I am and having children) the same things that other black parents face, and have faced. I'm SHARING my remedy, not trying to teach something. I have a voice in this too, regardless if you want my whiteness to keep me out of it. If that makes me wrong to you (or anyone else) oh well. I'm not raising black biracial children, "palefaced billygoats" at that, who are being raised to hate black people and themselves. It is the complete opposite.
The stories you have shared, while I know they are real, are not the story of all IR couples. My relationship has never been about those things, ever. Your experience may want to convince you otherwise, as you have not had pleasant experineces (obviously), but just as you want the benefit of the doubt, so do I. Please think about that.
While I may represent some things to some people (evil, history --whatever), I am still the person God made me. That is like accusing somebody of a crime that they didn't commit --it's unjust. If I open my heart and am still made to be a scapegoat, I won't trust either. Both parties will mistrust and the hate will be endless. I don't know if this merry-go-round will ever stop.
In closing, you have made many relevant points that I will take the time to think about. Just know in my parting that I'm not your average, run of the mill "moon wife" type that you have encountered, alright? I respect what your doing in raising your children, just as long as you don't hate others in the process. History has shown us that in choosing to be exclusive, the nature of the beast desires only to conquer those unlike themselves. It has always hurt mankind. Through your pain, may you one day find a peaceful place and delicate balance for the passion of your people and your love for humanity in general. You have proved to me that there is a very fine line between love and hate that most people can't differentiate, yourself included.
You are indeed a very strong woman, a trait I highly admire and respect.
May God bless you, your children and family as you fulfill your divine purpose in this life.
Sincerely,
Moonsigns
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Miss_wysteria
Newbie Poster
Username: Miss_wysteria
Post Number: 17
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 05, 2004 - 10:25 pm: |
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Moonsigns...I posted a REPLY to this post on the other board. I think you'll appreciate it, sis. |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 18
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 12:24 am: |
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miss wys: you did it again in this lst post. i feel you. my hubby is a nigerian brit, and self-love (that of race and geography and culture) fairly oozes from his pores, as well as from my son's. and i live in a very idealistic town that was built especially to foster friendly relations between all races. it is, potentially, the interracial capital of the world.
so. i feel ya and appreciated hearing your point of view. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 491
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 06, 2004 - 08:12 pm: |
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Abm: I only meant that Blacks belong to Blacks, right or wrong. I should have made that clearer. I can see how you misunderstood what I was trying to get across, but I expected no less from someone like you. You seem to want to make a mockery of Blacks holding up Blacks, and thats cool if thats what you want to do. I, on the other hand, always want to claim my people and give them the benefit of the doubt. Do your thing, if you must, but remember this: There are millions of white people in the world that want us to think like you. Disagree with our black celebs, but we're all black, brotha. I don't care for what Cosby said, or what Kobe did, but hey, we're all black. Whenever someone is pro-black, trying to uplift the race, you seem to want to kill the notion. I never said to defend the behavior of anyone because they are black. Wrong is wrong. Let's not hang our people because they are black. Pecks been doing that for years. We don't need to help. Uplift the race, man. Uplift it. You and a few others seem to want to give it all away. What was that you said about jazz? Are you serious? And hiphop? Are you serious? Even if it were true that 80% of the hiphop that's being sold is being bought by whites doesn't make it any less ours. And do you really think that Jazz wouldn't have lasted without white peoples support? Wow, man. You carrying a heavy load if you think like that. I would much rather believe that jazz musicians would continue our innovative jazz thing without the infusion of peckerwoods, man. White influence is not the be all for our culture. We, as a people, have got to maintain our own identity, and it starts with us, as individuals, taking ownership of our culture. You cats are unbelievable. Sometimes I think you differ just to differ. Why do we have so many blacks willing to throw in the towel on our people. Where is the fight? Have we all grown so tired that we're like, " Fu%^ it! Let whitey have everything!" Abm, what happened to our people? Funny, I already know you are going to disappoint me. I already know you want to find fault. I already know you want to jump on that lilly white bandwagon and ride with Moonsigns in the front car. You want to be seen holding that banner, "Let's all make friends with whitey cause blackfolks aint hardly good enough!" Why fault me because I want to believe in my people? I don't have to agree with my peoples behavior, or agree with everything my people say, but can't I still claim them? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1071
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2004 - 11:03 am: |
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Lambd,
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/179/1629.html?1094569338 . |
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