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Klb
Regular Poster
Username: Klb
Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 11:28 am: | 
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I'm not sure I buy this what do you guys think?
The police system of the South was originally designed to keep track of all Negroes, not simply criminals; and when the Negroes were freed and the whole South was convinced of the impossibility of free Negro labor, the first and almost universal device was to use the courts as a means of re-enslaving the blacks. It was not a question of crime, but rather one of color that settled a man’s conviction on almost any charge.
— W.E.B. Du Bois “Of The Sons of Master and Man”
Among the zero-sum hustlers of Hip Hop, Inc. incarceration has become the metaphor of choice for realness.Add to the list of ironic indignities salting our collective wounds the fact that this week witnessed a black man paying to get into a prison. The rapper Li’l Wayne, according to an Associated Press report, dropped two grand on the Mansfield Preservation Society for use of the Ohio State Reformatory for his upcoming music video for the song “Go DJ.” Truth told, the issue is not a single music video, but the fact that, among the zero-sum hustlers of Hip Hop, Inc. incarceration has become the metaphor of choice for realness.
Witness The Lox’s performance at last year’s Source Awards, complete with a prison-yard backdrop for the lyricists to perform in. Witness the enduring fashion felony of wearing beltless pants, hanging mid-buttock, a style born of the prison policy of removing any item a prisoner might use to hang himself. We have fallen a long way from the days of Public Enemy’s use of a prison as the setting for their rebellion fantasy “Black Steel in the Hour of Chaos.” Among the cardinal offenses of the keep-it-real movement in hip hop is the fact that the most bitter elements of black life, the most dire threats to our collective well-being, have been transformed into entertainment for the world at large.
This is where it gets surreal. There are currently over 900,000 African American men incarcerated in the United States. Black women represent the fastest growing imprisoned population in the United States. Estimates range that in the coming decade, as much as 10% of the total population of black men in this country will be imprisoned. The mass incarceration of black people is having disastrous consequences for the political representation of the communities they leave behind, the HIV transmission rates of African Americans and the dissolution of black families.
This ain’t entertainment.
Consult Worse Than Slavery, historian David Oshinsky’s masterful work on the subject, and it becomes clear that mass black incarceration has its roots in the need to rebuild the Southern economy after the Civil War. Institutions like Parchman Farm in Mississippi and Angola Prison in Louisiana were literally transformed from slave plantations into penal institutions designed not to reform or punish criminals, but to generate revenue for states that had recently lost their sources of free labor. The 13th Amendment, we should recall, abolished slavery “…except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted.”
In the wake of the Civil War, Southern legislatures constructed Byzantine legal codes designed to incarcerate as many black people as possible. (In one instance, according to Oshinsky, a six year-old child was sentenced to 30 days in jail for stealing a hat.) Once imprisoned, their labor was sold or “leased” out to local farms where they performed the same tasks as slaves had prior to emancipation. Planters made profit on their crops, prisons gained revenue through leasing fees and judges were often paid additional bonuses per-conviction: a system that worked perfectly for all involved, save the black people who actually did the work. Unlike slavery, there was no monetary value attached to the convict himself and so sadistic and unlivable labor conditions flourished. In the 1880s, 20% of black inmates died each year. Thus, even as emancipation was established, the seeds for re-enslavement were being sown.
And before we work ourselves into a Cosbyite froth of indignation regarding our current incarceration rates — They must have done SOMETHING to get locked up in the first place — bear in mind a conversation I had recently with both a superior court judge and an assistant district attorney about the increasingly popular “mandatory minimum” laws and a national trend toward the trying of juveniles as adults. Neither of these two can be construed as the weak-kneed, soft-on-crime type, yet both the judge and the prosecutor pointed out that these laws are disproportionately applied to African Americans, particularly black men. “The fact is that prosecutors are more likely to bring charges against black males than they are against whites suspected of similar crimes,” the prosecutor told me. “The result is that we’re throwing away black boys who are as young as 13 or 14 years old.” We are not speaking of a predatory drug dealers, murderers or rapists who terrorize our communities, but often first-time offenders and non-violent drug users who are swelling the ranks of black men in prison to disastrous proportions.
W.E.B. Du Bois was not simply spitting soft-hearted hyperbole when he warned us a century ago of the growing “double system of justice, which errs on the white side by undue leniency and the practical immunity of red-handed criminals, and errs on the black side by undue severity [and] injustice.” And this is not simply a matter of practicing racism, but also — as always — a matter of economics and profit. As my historian-friend Khalil Muhammad has pointed out, “Everyone in the system — from prosecutors to police officials to administrators at all levels — has something of a self-interest in locking people up. What would happen to all the politicians who got voter support by building a prison that would employ people in a community where a factory had just moved overseas?
For those among us who remain less than moved by the hardships of the incarcerated, it should be recognized that there are consequences far beyond those individuals populating cellblocks across the country. Prison-building and incarceration are also skewing resources away from inner cities into the rural areas where prisons tend to be located. Since a town with a prison increases the number of local “residents” during the census, they gain disproportionate congressional representation, budget allocation and resources. And thus urban “crime” essentially subsidizes the economic growth of non-urban, majority white towns. Keep this in mind the next time you wonder about why inner-city schools lack so many of the resources that their suburban counterparts can take for granted. Add into this equation the fact that felons in many states cannot regain the right to vote and the spread of HIV among incarcerated men who eventually are released and find sexual partners on the outside and you recognize that we are facing a community crisis.
Neither contender for the Presidency will touch the issue of felon re-enfranchisement (Kerry for fear of being seen as “soft on crime,” Bush for fear of messing with the hustle that got him his White House gig in the first place.) But the truth is that sentencing reform is, quite possibly, the most pressing issue facing black America in 2004. We have no choice but to make this a national concern. Or else we face an era when misguided rappers will no longer be able to shoot videos in prisons — not because of a newly evolved conscience, but because there will be no space available to rent out.
First published: August 2, 2004
About the Author
William Jelani Cobb is an assistant professor of history at Spelman College and editor of The Essential Harold Cruse. He can be reached at creative.ink@jelanicobb.com. Visit his website at www.jelanicobb.com. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 936
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 12:10 pm: |
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What a depressing situation, an entrenched problem that would seems to be resistent to resolution. I grieve for the future of this generation of black men. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 622
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 12:12 pm: |
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http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/1354.html#POST12713
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 627
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 01:28 pm: |
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All,
Too often, when it come to reviewing and executing socio-economic policy, it seems Black foks are playing grade school checkers and our opponent is playing a world championship, "Bobby Fischer vs Boris Spassky" grade of chess.
I don’t think we will ever be able to overturn the rapacious onslaught of the penal system until we start to look at what is going on less from a crime-n-punishment perspective and more of a dollar-n-cents perspective.
There are myriad laws on the books right now that were unfairly drafted and executed almost solely to permanently criminalize people of color.
A glaring example of this is the prejudice administration & sentencing rules concerning cocaine. Namely, in many parts of the country, a White kid can get caught with bag a powder cocaine and receive a proverbial slap on the wrist. A Black kid can get nabbed with the same volume of crack cocaine and he is going to serious prison time.
How can such disparity rightly exist if the use and distribution of either form of cocaine is considered a crime? We know why!
And considering how much it costs to house/feed/control the convicted (>$30,000/convict), WHY would a society choose to do that, especially when it is proportionately cheaper to educate people (<10,000/student)...UNLESS, they intend to convert these disenfranchised people into cheap and bountiful human stock to be easily wield by the wealthy/powerful?
And the politicians slyly propagate political dogma to perpetuate and exacerbate the status quo.
Until Black folk can to a material degree feed, cloth, house and employ each other, we will haplessly continue to be subject to the malevolent designs of others. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 625
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 04:16 pm: |
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abm: right, but we have too many folks bamboozled by this social responsibility rhetoric, when the latter is really a small though essential part of a the bigger issue. It seems me that folks argue, if u didn't committ the crime then you wouldn't have to worry about sentencing, anyways...this is nice, and it speaks of personal responsibility and integrity, which is really rubbish, for its purpose is only to make you feel of worth(respectable, pious) and to demonstrate to others that you are these things...but crime is normal for poor people...this is world history, not black history, and the poor are criminalized to mask structural inequality, also world history not black history, jus some thoughts... |
Watastar
Newbie Poster
Username: Watastar
Post Number: 13
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 09:09 am: |
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The Prison Industrial Complex
by Assata Shakur
Never in our history has critical resistance to the status quo been more important. The growth of the Prison Industrial complex has been appallingly rapid and the escalating repression that has accompanied it is totally alarming. What of future lies ahead of us? What are the implications of for our children?
Those who are targeted as the victims of the Prison Industrial Complex are mainly people of color. They are Native Americans, Africans, Asians, and Latinos, who came from societies where there were no prisons and where prisons were an unknown concept. Prisons were introduced in Africa, the Americas and Asia as by-products of slavery and colonialism, and they continue to be instruments of exploitation and oppression. In the heart of the imperialist empires, prisons also meant oppression. The prisons of Europe were so overcrowded that European prisoners were sent to the colonies and encouraged to enslave and colonize other peoples. In England, during the so-called period of expansion, there were not only debtor's prisons for the poor, but also more than 200 crimes that were punishable by death. During the French revolution, the storming and destruction of the Bastille Prison, became a symbol for liberation all over Europe. And today, those of us whose ancestors were imprisoned in Slave forts like Elmina, or Goree Island, now find ourselves imprisoned in places like Elmira, Rikers Island, Terminal Island, Marion or Florence. The prisons that are being constructed In the United States today are more sophisticated than concentration camps like Auschwitz or Dachau, but they serve the same purpose. The profits from prison industries, and prison slave labor is surpassing the super exploitation levels of forced labor in Nazi concentration camps.
The Prison Industrial Complex is not only a mechanism to convert Public tax money into profits for private corporations, it is an essential element of modern neo-liberal capitalism. It serves two purposes. One to neutralize and contain huge segments of potentially rebellious sectors of the population, and two, to sustain a system of super exploitation, where mainly black and Latino captives are imprisoned in white rural, overseer communities. People of color are easy targets. Our criminalization and villianization is an Amerikkkan tradition. The image of the dirty-lazy-shiftless- savage - backwards- good for nothing - darkies has been the underpinning of the racist culture and ideology, that dominates U.S. politics. One of the basic tenets of that revolution was that only rich, white men have the right to have a revolution, anyone else who struggles for one is a terrorist or a subversive. The truth of the matter is that oppressed people have, and have always had a great deal more to be outraged about than taxation without representation.
Repression, torture, and beatings are as common in U.S. prisons today as they were on slave plantations. And political prisoners bear the brunt of this systematic brutality. Those who fight against oppression are thrown into dungeons, rather than those who perpetuate it. The prolonged torture of solitary confinement is being used, not only as a weapon against political dissent, but as a weapon against anyone who protests any of the injustices of the system. How can you fight against injustice, without demanding the liberation of political prisoners?
Unfortunately, there are more young people behind bars because they have been inculcated with and are reproducing the values of this decadent capitalist system, than those who are consciously struggling to change it. During the 1960s, when the movement was at its height, the prison population was only a fraction of what it is today. Those who institutionalized the kidnapping of Africans, those who orchestrated genocide against Native Americans, those who plunder the treasures of the world, and who are responsible for the most heinous crimes on this planet, want to preach to us about law and order. Those who profit from human misery and deny us education, affirmation action, health care, decent housing, want to lecture us about morality. Many of us watch helplessly as our children imitate and internalize the greedy, ostentatious, culture of conspicuous consumption, practiced by those who oppress us. We watch the same people who import drugs into the country, who distribute them, in our communities, wage a war on us, in the name of fighting drugs.
The Prison Industrial complex is not a distortion of modern global capitalism; it is part and parcel of that system. It is not enough to fight against the Prison Industrial complex; we must fight against the ideology that promotes it. Human beings are social beings and have a basic need to live in nurturing communities, instead of hostile ones. The people on this planet have an infinite potential to contribute to this planet and it is a crime to prevent us from doing so. The human beings who live on this planet have an unlimited ability to learn, to grow, to change, to be generous, to invent and to share. It is a crime to prevent young people from developing their talents. It is a crime to let individualistic values destroy the collective good. To those who rule this planet, we are all disposable. Our only value to them is the wealth that we are capable of producing. It is a system with no compassion, no love, and no faith.
What kind of mentality is it that would classify a 5 year old as being incorrigible? What kind of system would try a 12 year as an adult? What kind of mentality is it that would sentence a 20-year-old to life without parole? How can a system claim to be nonviolent, while praising the death penalty inside its borders, and bombing and killing innocent people all over the world? This is a system that sells and promotes and exports violence. It is a system that would rather warehouse and murder its young, than cultivate them. In this grotesque world with its grotesque, cynical values, it sounds, naive, to believe in people, and believe in our ability to create a better world.
But how can you believe in a future if you don't believe in people who are going to make it? How can you believe in human rights unless you believe in human beings? How can you say you believe in justice, without believing in social justice, political justice and economic justice for all people?
The Prison Industrial complex not only destroys individuals; it destroys families and communities. If we do not destroy it, it will destroy us. I urge you to do everything you can to break these chains.
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Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 22
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 12:24 pm: |
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For the most part, no one is forced to do what they do, especially certain types of crime. If there is one trait that all the abnormal, poor people share that is similiar, it is self-control. These abnormal, poor people --the one's who don't commit crimes --prove that to a large degree that one can control themselves IF that is what they choose to do. Personal responsiblity and integegrity isn't at all "rubbish" (as you suggest Yukio). It isn't to prove to anyone else a thing. It is a direct reflection that you care about yourself and those around you. If you don't care about yourself, your children and those around you, you get what you deserve --unless that is, you're mentally or physically retarded! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 643
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 01:44 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
That's for providing me with the subject matter for my daily rant.
I am as much an advocate of "integrity" as the next guy. But truth is, many people - your spouse, parent, kids, extended family, friends, even YOURSELF - likely will or already have done SOMETHING that would/could deemed a crime and are NEVER made to account for their offenses. So whenever I see foks spout off the hard-liner "personal responsibility" mantra in responses to critiques of the criminal justice system, the hypocrisy make me want to hurl.
And what the heck do you mean by this "all the abnormal, poor people share that is similar, it is self-control." crap anyway? Because everyday millions of (mostly White) so-called responsible, upstanding people engage in a myriad criminal acts:
@ Cheat on their taxes. (Federal/State crime)
@ Pilfer supplies/equipment from their employer and they 'pad' their expense reports (Petty/Grand theft)
@ Receive payment/gifts for steering contracts to selected vendor/suppliers (Kickbacks/extortion)
@ Buy, distribute and consume illegal narcotics (Criminal offenses)
@ Dump pesticides, chemicals, poisons in/near water and other protected ecosystems (Environmental crimes)
@ Drink then drive (Criminal/Vehicular offense)
@ Engage in underage drinking (Criminal offense)
@ They jaywalk/liter (Misdemeanor in most major metropolitan areas)
@ They exchange oral/anal secks acts (Texas/Alabama State crime)
In fact, if the criminal justice system was even remotely fair, tomorrow night about 20 million suburban White kids would be incarcerated for underage drinking, drinking/driving, drug use, vandalism, date rape, trespassing, assault/battery, assorted traffic violations and other infractions.
And yet they are almost NEVER made to pay penance for these 'crimes'. In fact, these 'crimes' are so commonplace, most of them hardly think they are breaking the law, much less concern themselves with getting nabbed.
Not all laws are fair, just or evenly applied. So until these laws are impartially written, executed and litigated, I will remain a staunch critic of the status quo.
BTW: And until recently, it was a 'crime' for Blacks and Whites to marry in many states. Should those who committed that 'offense' have been locked up too? |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 23
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 02:19 pm: |
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Abm
Yukio wrote:
"Crime is normal for poor people."
I say:
Considering Yukio's comment, poor people who don't commit crime must be "abnormal" than. The poor people who don't committ crime all seem to share the similiar character trait of self-control.
You're right, there are laws that aren't fair. However, it doesn't negate the fact that many people aren't taking care of their personal responsiblities. How much more of a chance does a child have of not entering the criminal (so-called) justice system IF they are born to a mother who has a committed, stable partner (husband), compared to a child who is born to a mother who has 3 different babies daddies --btw, which of none care to become her husband/committed parnter? This is just one example of many I could share. This is my main piont. There are two sides of the story --the unjust system that is set up and the people who willing walk right into it by choice. My belief is that if men and women committed to a higher standard of living crime rates/incarceration would go down. It's inevitable.
Both situations deserve to be equally addressed, criticized and fought.
Abm, I am also of the belief that what goes around, comes around --Karma --seed, time and harvest --whatever you want to call it! People get their just pay. I have seen it in my own life, as well in the lives of others.
You make a good point about blacks and whites marrying. I have nothing to say.
Much Respect!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 949
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 04:55 pm: |
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Well, finally someone who is on the same wave length as me when it comes to the subject of black woman how breed indiscriminately and the consequences that ensure from this irresposible behavior. I have never changed anybody's minds in previous arguments about this subject, Moonsigns, but at least I now have an ally in you. And I always tune out people who seek to justify the self-defeating things blacks do by saying whites do it too. So what? I'm not worried about how flawed white folks are, I'm concerned about how black people can improve their lot in life. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 644
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 11:12 pm: |
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Cynique,
You have never "changed anybody's minds" because no one has really disagree with you to begin with. We have just tried to expand the discussion beyond your provincial, simpleminded perspective.
So then, do you think it is ok for White people to be permitted to flaut the laws that Black people are not? Moreover, do you agree that your tax money should be used to fund bias criminal justice and penal systems?
How can Black people "improve their lot in life" in a system that is hellbent on the converse?
EVERYBODY has done "self-defeating" things. You have. I have. Everyone who will read these post have. The difference is some people are much more apt to be caught and made to pay for those things. And those people are disproportionately Black and poor.
But, hey, maybe that's okay for some Black people. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 409
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 11:37 pm: |
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The hell it is! I get so sick and tired of these morally upstanding people spouting personal responsibility too, abm. BullS***!! As you pointed out abm, white kids commit the same crimes as black kids and they are not exercising any more self control than black kids are, but as you also pointed out abm, the cops MOSTLY LOOK
THE OTHER WAY!!!!I have personally witnessed this time and time again on campus. Once, some freinds and I were walking back to our dorms and a carfull of white boys got pulled over by the cops. They had open cans of beer drinking it and do you know what the cops did? They made them get out of the car, told them to empty all of the beer cans on the ground and then let them drive off. Now you KNOW how that same scenario wouldve gone down if the kids had been black. It makes me sick that people STILL act as though black youths are the only ones having 2 and three "baby daddies" and ish! there are just as many white girls carrying babies around on their hips that don't have a husband either. They just are not talked about as black young females are. And the white girls that don't are having abortions. Listen, go into any abortion clinic and read the charts, where these young white girls are having nine and ten abortions before age 18!
So now what moonsigns???!!
Everything you said is true abm and yes I am cosigning that ish!!
Black young men in this country NEVER get a break so I don't want to hear this nonsense about personal responsiblity unles you are going to hold EVERYONE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS!!!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 645
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 11:38 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
I think too often we are a bit too absolute in our arguments.
Of course personal responsibility is important. We all have obligations to fullfil. But often it seems we "responsible" foks talk as if we live in some magically antiseptic vacuum when the truth is we live within a series of interconnecting systems that include many other external, powerful influences that greatly affect how personally responsible many of us can be.
For example, in some parts of the country over 1/2 of the Black male youths drop out of high school. Now, when a calamity of this sort occurs on such a mammoth scale, is this simply an issue of "personal responsibility" or is there also some seriously faulty social engineering occuring?
Moreover, I find it quite convenient of us to demand certain things of each other when we can't even feed, clothe and house our ownselves. ALL of us are going hat-in-hand to White foks for our jobs, groceries, sheepskin, indemnity/security, cars, homes/mortgages, computers, ISP's, etc. (And the includes the 'mighty' Bill Cosby's of the world.).
I say again, if we really want to be able to impose more responsible behavior on our brothers and sisters, it would help if we could give at least ONE of them a f@#%ing job! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 410
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 11:39 pm: |
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Anybody who believes that ish, can just take that crap and go THAT way! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 646
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 11:43 pm: |
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A_womon,
Bravo!
Sometimes, I wonder if we Black have become so masochistic in our thinking that we would rather excoriate our ownselves rather than call to task the people/institutions that have caused/perpetuated our troubles. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 411
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 11:57 pm: |
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Right abm....so many black folks seek to distance themselves from the problems by doing that very thing...how sad!
Which is probably why we have a case like Kobe bryant getting tried for raping a white girl who had sex with someone else before she was "raped" by Kobe and then had sex with someone else after the supposed rape, and didn't even bother to change panties between sexcapades, so she carried all of these men's semen with her to the hospital for her rape kit. But we are supposed to feel sorry for this poor mistreated white girl and oh by the way, she aint no 'ho or slut just cuz she got all this different semen in her draws...po little innocent thing.... yeah right!!!
Is it just me, or are we moving backward in time with these broads choosing to have sex with these black men, then crying rape, and all the white posse comes riding down on the "vicious black man" who dared sully the garments of an innocent white maiden. PUHLEEZE!!!! |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 24
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:06 am: |
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Abm
Yes, everyone has self-defeating things, some worse than others.
You ask:
"How can Black people improve their lot in life in a system that is hellbent on the converse?"
I ask:
Why do people choose to partake in things/activities where the only choice they make for their life is to be a part of the biased penal system?
Would I like to see rightful justice served in our penal system? Yes! Would I like to see my tax money used to support an equal/fair/unbiased justice system? Yes! Do I agree with my tax money being used to fund/support the numerous, negative repercussions and lifestyle of some women's sexual indiscretions/irresponsiblity? No! As much fire as I have for the biased justice system, I have the same for women/men who choose to negatively contribute to an already hostile environment/situation. Like I said before, both sides of the story need to be addressed, criticized and fought!
For starters, some black people can improve their lot in life (and those they influence) by CHOOSING not to pay a prison to film their latest video --a video that will be seen by the thousands of young, unsupervised black eyes/minds/souls! But, hey, like you said, maybe that's okay for some black people. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 647
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:23 am: |
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A_womon,
Well, I ain't no apologist for Kobe. Cause anytime a man fires his gun in a direction where he ain't suppose to, he's gottah know trouble gonna come his way.
But, yeah, Snow White probably thought she could bat her Blue eyes and work up a race-baiting frenzy over the big strong Black buck taking her sweet pure defenseless self.
The problem is though...she's (apparently) a skank-ho.
But perhaps we aren't going too far backwards. Because her case against Kobe has apparently grown so stale, even her own attorneys are talking about tossin' it. |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 25
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:33 am: |
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A_womon
Are white people doing the same stuff? Yes! Is this conversation about white people though? No! The conversation is about the penal system and blacks. Why when the word/phrase personal responsiblity comes up there is shift to "white people this" or "white people that"? White people are not God and need to stop being treated as such! The last time I checked a black woman and black man created black children --children that have the ability to be steered away, or to, a system that is unjust/unbiased. No, it's not always fair, but the power of choice is still there. The biased system can be fought if people are united and whole. When people aren't united and whole, nothing will change.
You ask:
"So now what moonsigns"
I say:
Nothing --breathe. No one is fighting with you. I understand your point, but know this, you're not the only one with one. There is validity to both of our perspectives/opinions and I respect that!
Food for thought --"Your vision will become clear only when you can look into your heart. Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes." -carl jung
Much respect! |
Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 26
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:42 am: |
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Abm
Yes, people can sometimes be too absolute in their arguement(s). I understand where you're coming from though -as always, much respect! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 412
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:45 am: |
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Listen, It's like this, you got it right, we are ALL entitled to our opinion, and we are entitled to express it as we like and it it up to those reading it to respond or to remain quiet, their choice right.
As for white people being treated as GOd, last time I looked it was white people claiming to be god, that white people could be considered god beyond the white god and jesus drawings that they try to force on the world, it never crossed my mind. Believe That!
Even if this discussion is about black people, abm took it in another direction, how odd that you did not address his remarks...neverless, I will speak on whatever subject I like if I feel it pertains to the discussion, which the facts that I mentioned most certainly do!!! REread if you didn't get it, but know this, if you Never get it, I could care less. Fighting you? honey, if you think this is a fight, you got a lot to learn about awomon. I am stating my opinion just like you are and I will continue to do so. OK?
YOU breathe, you are the one who got offended,it appears, not I.
Peace. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 950
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 12:58 am: |
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Pardon me while I yawn, Abm and a_womon. 10 years from now you guys will still be spouting this same ol BS, offering the same ol tired excuses and rationales, the same ol stale theories and explanations, blustering with the same ol righteous indignation. Sooooooooo, if it makes you feel better to get it off your chest then keep on yaking - to each other. Maybe wishing will make it so, because nothing else has worked in case you hadn't noticed. And spare me the retort that the same ol argument of encouraging personal responsibility to make obstacles easier to surmount won't work either. We have no way of knowing if it will work or not since it's obviously not something that's ever been tried by the type of women whom I chastised. And save yourself the energy cuz I ain't reading no more looooong emotional rants. As usual, we have to agree to disasgree. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 413
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:12 am: |
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yes, you and moonsigns can hold hands on this one
careful cyn,you sounded alot like your nemisis in your closing line... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 648
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:21 am: |
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Moonsigns,
You might say "Why bring up White people in a discussion about Black and 'personal responsibity'?" And my response to that would be "What planet are you from?" How can one have any meaningful discussion about what we should and shouldn't do in absentia of those who own/control everything. Frankly, it is intellectual folly to even attempt to do such. Because I might 'choose' to do all kinds of enobled, meaningful things...and if I am not mindful of their efforts, they can undermine my every effort.
I am not saying this to suggest that we shirk our responsibilities. Frankly, I wouldn't be having this discussion with you if I believed that. But lets at least appreciate that the remedy to our ills will likely include an eclectic assortment of ingredients. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 649
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:25 am: |
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Cynique,
The easiest thing in the world to be is a 'cynic'. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 951
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:37 am: |
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No, it's much easier to shirk personal reponsibility, Abm. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 414
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:38 am: |
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By the way moonsigns, If you are so concerned about me talking about/bringing up white people, why are you so intrested in discussing black people and their problems? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 650
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:42 am: |
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Cynique,
Naw! Your job is much easier than that. It requires no inspiration, aspiration, effort or hope.
All you have to do is crap on the dreams of others. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 952
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:58 am: |
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Aspirations, efforts, hope? Been there, done that. Reality rules. You might want to check it out sometime. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 651
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 02:09 am: |
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Cynique,
Good thing you weren't assigned to help lead the charge towards Black liberation. Because if you were, we might all still be slaves. |
Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 27
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 08:38 am: |
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Abm
From the jump, I have acknowledged that some whites are a part of the problem and I think you agree that irresponbility on the part of some blacks is also part of the problem. The discussion at hand though is about a black man paying a prison to host his latest video --part of the problem. Ultimately, I agree with the point you are making, but will also remain steadfast that personal responsibility is also important --both need to be addressed, criticized and fought.
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Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 28
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 09:18 am: |
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A_womon
I wasn't offended in the least by what you shared. I actually thought it was too dramatic and defensive! Jumping in a conversation saying people who believe a different way than you can take that "ish" and go "THAT way" --go to hell --lol --is just...crazy...irrational!!!!!!!! It doesn't even have to go there, but unreconciled anger is like a loaded gun pointed at whoever is in the way --I saw it for what it is worth and understand it for what it is worth. At least we agree that we all have an opinion. However, I'm not at all into the train wreck approach. Consider the vampire discussion the other day. You will understand why.
btw, the irresponsiblity of some blacks influences my family and the world I live in, just as the irresponsiblity of some whites does. That is why I care to discuss it. If you're adamant about discussing whites and the penal system, start a thread. I'll participate 
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Watastar
Newbie Poster
Username: Watastar
Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 09:29 am: |
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When I have more time, I will comment more. In the meantime, I will post this (Black August Needs Your Resistance Now):
For 25 years we’ve worked and organized in the community trying to
maintain awareness and connection between those trapped inside the
prison
industrial complex and the general public. It has been a largely
frustrating and thankless task. There have been no famous or crowd
pleasing groups or individuals to inspire the involvement of others. Our
efforts, because of this, have mainly involved friends, family, loved
ones
and an ever-changing number of conscious individuals from the general
public and community.
Over the years we’ve tried to be consistent in rallying people around
issues such as prisoner abuse by guards, inadequate and often negligent
health care and the incredible number of legal problems incurred by
warehousing inmates indefinitely. We’ve tried to keep up with
correspondence, packages, legal and letter writing materials etc.
When we began all of this, California had 11 prisons and roughly 20,000
prisoners. The prison industrial complex of California has now grown to
33
prisons and nearly 160,000 adult prisoners.
A number of organizations have come into existence over the intervening
years to grapple with various aspects of an out-of-control system of
modern-day slavery that has grown to become the most powerful political
force in California. The efforts, though sincere, have had meager
success
against an entity that even governors are wary of.
The missing ingredient has always been people. Most organizations will
tell you money is scarce, time never works in our behalf, but people are
what are needed most. There are no government programs or studies that
will do the things needed as regards those locked away and very nearly
forgotten or the youth outside being groomed to join them. We need
people!
This is the 25th year of our Black August commemorative gatherings. As
we
remember 25 years of preaching to the choir, we now ask them to sing.
Let
that singing involve volunteering your skills, knowledge, experience,
money, sweat and time as well as your voice in raising awareness and
creating and employing solutions to our collective situation.
This one is for those forgotten by many, both living and dead. Those
unremembered in their passing by a people for whom survival has become a
minute-by-minute struggle - ignored in both the reasoning for and the
magnitude of their final days. This one is for those unknown to most,
though they struggle unflinching in the concentration camps of America.
This one is for the youth standing on the verge of the void, so close to
falling but still within our grasp. Souls whose earthly names are rarely
if ever spoken in fond humility and respect for the selfless way they
left
us.
Invisible and often forgotten by even those whose lives they’ve touched
are the brothers and sisters who endure much locked away standing firm
for
us. Several generations of children who have existed in the vacuum
created
by the death or incarceration of parents or whole families. We have much
to commemorate.
These things are the driving concept of Black August. They are bitter
and
harsh to the mind of the intellect that would seek to know and remember
only the brighter aspects of our existence.
Many would urge that the past be forgotten to let a bright future shine
forth. Bright futures hold no sway over policies and doctrines that
cloud
our present as a matter of course.
From the hanging trees and slave breakers not long gone, through the
lunch
counters and protest movement, policy and doctrine have legitimized
brutality and inhumane treatment. From the turbulent ‘60s that made us
grieve for so many, to the present where grief now courses unchecked
through our lives, policy and doctrine have determined our portion.
To remember is to know there is no change in policy and doctrine, though
it has worn many hats. Past, present and future are poised on what we do
now.
Black August in this time must be more than ever before to a people who
don’t remember. It must be a new and binding commitment to those who do.
The politics of punishment enslave our generations and enforce division
throughout our communities. Families torn apart by policies that
restrict
choices, which control courses of action, that determine if a family
subsists from one generation to the next. Communities decimated by
doctrines of genocide so insidious they masquerade as plans to better
the
urban condition.
Fighting these policies and doctrines is the spirit of Black August and
requires us all to stand united. The policies of COINTELPRO still pit
one
organization against another. One block, street, neighborhood or city
against another in that ages-old strategy: keep them fighting one
another,
and they won’t notice us stealing their very existence. Black August
resistance must begin again in this time.
For Black August we must firm up where we are and build on foundations
that have never given ground, though they struggle to survive. We cannot
continue to place emphasis on the new at the expense of the old instead
of
incorporating the best of the old to add strength and structure.
So many lessons have been learned and must now be shared with the people
of our communities. Flesh and blood individuals going into those
communities to learn as well as teach must do this work. As we are
molded
by the will and necessity of the people, so will our petty argumentative
natures dissipate.
The focus of all activities must ultimately be our total liberation.
Those
brothers and sisters in captivity standing firm and fighting for that
liberation have much to offer as Black August stands before the world
and
acknowledges their existence as freedom fighters, political prisoners,
prisoners of conscience and prisoners of war. They are committed to the
cause that must burn them into our hearts and minds: revolution.
Coyote, an elder of elders, once told me a thing that impressed me much
in
its simplicity and impact: The least of us must be as the greatest of us
when you consider that even the slowest child in the race will cross the
finish line. On the research team, even that one of least skill will
know
the answer when the team discovers it.
For Black August, we must let this be the beginning of all our assorted
parts pulling together as a team. Let the spirit of Black August
resistance unite us all in the struggle to free the captives and save
our
youth.
The politics of this country determine your place in life and death
without benefit of your input. Make your input felt by making decisions
that uplift us as a whole.
Come out to help us make the Week of Peace, Aug. 16-22, a lasting and
universal peace. Bring all of your friends and family to this 25th
anniversary commemoration and see what you can do for your people today.
Build Black August resistance!
Email Shaka at RoyBoomba@aol.com to offer your help.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 652
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 10:53 am: |
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Moonsigns,
I think we have achieved a meeting/agreeing of the minds. I certainly agree with you that stunts like those pulled by this lil’ Wayne characters perpetuate the problem. And we should reprove what he does.
I guess I am often compelled to cite that we Black foks have almost become conditioned to enjoy ripping each other so much that we ignore the insanity that help cause us to be what we have become.
For example, concerning the prison video, I would go further and criticize the responsible state/prison officials, record company(s), video director/producer, other video ‘actors’, song producer/co-writers and all others who stand to benefit from the presentation of the video. Because part of the reason why the Waynes’ of the world are able to propagate their madness is many other (so-called "personally responsible") people will look the other way to score some of the ‘ducats’ his prurience engenders.
Actually, in my mind, the people who should be most vigorously condemned are the state/prison officials. I mean, really, does providing the backdrop of a video that would appear to glorify crime/imprisonment qualify as appropriate, legal & moral utilization of state government property? There MUST be some state statues SOMEWHERE that prohibit such.
And shouldn’t our religious/morality groups (i.e., our "personal responsibility" advocates) be condemning and protesting what the state is helping perpetuate?
Frankly, I think the prison warden or whoever else authorized the usage of the facilities should be publicly condemned...then FIRED.
Thank you, Moonsigns. I really enjoy chatting with you. Because even though we may disagree or have different points of emphasis, I genuinely feel as though we manage to converse without our dialog degrading into bouts of sarcastic verbal brinkmanship. And since I have been AT LEAST been as guilty of such bouts as anyone else, I must thank and credit you for helping me to avoid engaging in such. |
Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 29
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 11:28 am: |
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Abm
As always, you are on point! I totally agree with you that people in positions of authority should be held accountable for perpetuating/glorifying such negative images, and moreso, using government property to do so. It is a complete contradiction to what they "preach" --it sickens me! I do feel that religious/morality groups should condemn and protest against this mess. However, there will always be those that chime in with that freedom of speech garbage. It's destructive from all angles and all those involved need to be held accountable!!!! A higher standard needs to be raised and maintained!
I have enjoy chatting with you as well! When it all comes down to it I know that we have similiar goals for the positive outcome/overcoming of the current, as well as future, generation(s). I am passionate about the future of my children/family, as well the other people we share the world with.
Blessings and Respect!
|
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 953
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 01:10 pm: |
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Well, Abm, I'm sure those who did lead the charge for black liberation were outstanding individuals who took reponsibilities for their actions. It's a mystery to me why you have such a problem with the call for people to give themselves a better chance in life by making better decisions about the personal choices they make. What's so cynical about that? Obviously, you'd rather go off on tangents and hurl accusations at those who don't agree with you. Stop pouting. You're a big boy now. Hopefully. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 657
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 02:13 pm: |
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Cynique,
I find it interesting to observe how your last post differ from that of Moonsigns' just above it.
It is as if I have been engaged in 2 different discussions.
HAHA! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 415
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 02:16 pm: |
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Moonsigns:
YOU thought my post too dramatic and too defensive. I say:ANNND so what!!!I still stand by what I said about what I consider ish and all who believe it can still go that way! To the nearest exit or hell however you perceive it. What I am wondering is why you think I care what you think about the tone of my posts?????? Let me assure you that I don't.
I am no more defensive than you my dear, it is all in the (self righteous) eye of the beholder, isn't it?
And your overzealous and unrequited need to psuedo-psychoanalyze *LOL* me is ridiculous since you don't know me in the least Talk about crazy, look inward my dear, as you are so wont to tell others.you only know what you read and your interpretation of it. which despite what you think are mostly dead wrong!
In the
future, please feel free to save it, kay? okay.
tataaa fa now!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 658
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 03:01 pm: |
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Cynique,
We really outtah write scripts together.
Cynique says: "I'm sure those who did lead the charge for black liberation were outstanding individuals who took reponsibilities for their actions."
ABM says: Of course, they did get a lil help from a guy name Abe Lincoln, northern United States, Canada, Union soldiers, Quakers, Abolitionists, John Brown, etc.
Cynique says: "It's a mystery to me why you have such a problem with the call for people to give themselves a better chance in life by making better decisions about the personal choices they make."
ABM says: It’s even a bigger mystery to me why you insist upon mischaracterizing my position in this discussion. Are you even READING what I writing? Oh, I forgot, your ADD is kicking in, so it hard for you to stay focused.
Cynique says: "What's so cynical about that?"
ABM says: I don’t know. You my dear ‘Cynique’ are the sovereign of ‘cynicism’ around here. You tell me?
Cynique says: "Obviously, you'd rather go off on tangents and hurl accusations at those who don't agree with you."
ABM says: No, actually I rather go skinny dipping with Tyra Banks and Naomi Campbell. But since they’re not available to me right now, I guess I’ll just settle for having fun with you.
Cynique says: "Stop pouting."
ABM says: But that’s my sexiest look.
Cynique says: "You're a big boy now."
ABM says: Dang! Are we still under a moratorium of sex jokes.
Cynique says: Hopefully.
ABM says: Indubitably.
Moonsigns/A_womon,
@ Why is it girls will so easily scrap with each other?
@ Why is boys really enjoy seeing girls scrap? |
Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 30
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 03:16 pm: |
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Abm
You're silly! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 954
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 03:23 pm: |
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As a matter of fact I'm not really reading any of these posts. Tell me what it is we're arguing about. Make it short because I'm tired of bickering about this same old subject every 2 or 3 weeks. Thumper has the right idea. A hiatus sounds like a really good idea to me. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 955
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 03:58 pm: |
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Memo to: Abm, a-womon, Yukio, Lambd, Chrishayden, et al.
It really isn't sporting of me to go on automatic pilot and interject my stock answers into the ongoing discussions about the black underclass, so remind me to stay out of it the next time this subject comes up. And wake me when it's over.
Now, I gotta a book I wanna check out. See
y'all later. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 660
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 04:30 pm: |
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Cynique says: "As a matter of fact I'm not really reading any of these posts."
ABM says: Too bad. You are missing some GREAT stuff!
Cynique says: "Tell me what it is we're arguing about."
ABM says: Whether Beyonce and Jay Z will get married.
Cynique says: "Make it short..."
ABM says: Now Cynique, you (of ALL people) should know I do everything ‘big-n-long’ <wink!>
Cynique says: "...because I'm tired of bickering about this same old subject every 2 or 3 weeks."
ABM says: Hmmmm? And yet you never fail to add your own 2-cents.
Cynique says: "Thumper has the right idea."
ABM says: Of course he does. Thumper is a ‘god’.
Cynique says: "A hiatus sounds like a really good idea to me."
ABM says: I give you 12 hours...MAX...and you’ll come sniveling back. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 661
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 04:50 pm: |
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Cynique,
Okay. Thanks. Have a great time. Bon Voyage. Bye...(already!)
A_womon,
Hey! Do me a favor. Look up the word "self-aggrandizing" in the dictionary and see if there’s a picture of an uppity Black woman next to it. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 626
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 12:13 pm: |
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hmmmm...what has happened here? I don't have the time to read all of the last posts...but i'll address who as addressed me.
Moonsigns: In haste, it seems that you have missed my point, which generally says that there are larger problems that are structural rather than individual. Unfortunately, you've abuse one line out of a short paragraph to make your own part....where is the respect and blessings? I was speaking historically not categorically. I respect people too much to believe in "traits." Poor people commit crimes because they have limited resources and often, as is the case in this country, they have the law against them. Again, the point was that poor people do crime not that folk shouldn't be "socially responsible." I agree that it is a 2 front war,as you suggest, but that personal responsiblity is an essential but small part of a much larger chunk that goes under-evaluated. You should take time to read the entire post...rather than extract a sentence read the sentences as a unit, as it is meant to be understood....please don't exploit me to make you point! |
Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 31
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 03:35 pm: |
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Yukio
In your first post you wrote that "personal responsibility and integrity" are "really rubbish" --it's only purpose it to make one feel worth --to feel "respectable, pious". In your second post you further supported your opinion by writing that "personal responsibility is an essential but small part of a much larger chunk that goes under-evaluated." Your point, which I have known all along, is that you feel the main problems are "structural". Fundamentally, this is where we disagree. I feel that personal responsiblity isn't at all "rubbish" --I feel it is a reflection of self-love rather than the need to prove to others what you are and are not. We agree that this is a "2 front war", however, I place just as much emphasis on personal repsonsibility as I do the structural issues --they are interconnected and both huge. The way I see it, there won't be peace if both aren't equally addressed and worked out.
I undestand your entire point about crimes and poor folks -but those are pretty loose generalizations and there are always exceptions to these "rules" and "traits" --we both know that.
You suggested that I, "in haste", read your post, hence, missed your point. After reading this I'm sure it is rather apparent that I have fully understand your point all along. If these aren't your opinions that you willingly wrote/expressed and supported, I would definitely apologize for exploiting your point of view --however.......
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 627
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 05:35 pm: |
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Moonsigns: It doesn't seem that you actually "fully" understood my point point all along. Where is the humility? Or are your farewells--much respect and blessings--more habit than sincerity?
You got part of it...but there's more... Again, if you reread my topic sentence, the subject is "social responsiblity rhetoric" rather than social responsibility in and of itself(beware the sentence is in passive voice and perhaps that prevented your "full" understanding). If one follows my points from sentence one to the rest, it is obvious, at least to me, that I'm not talking solely about efforts to be responsible to one self.
At any rate, the rhetoric is rubbish not social responsibility. It is rubbish because these rhetoricians oft deem themselves as "respectable" and pious, and usually single out single mothers. My opinion on single mothers, particularly the pooer and younger ones, is that they really don't know what they're getting into and don't have much of a support system. I don't think that they lack self-love, but believe that their form of self-love is often incompatible with gaining wealth. In my opinion, it is a matter of the lack of "know-how," the lack of a black community, it is parenting, as foolish Cosby says, but if you have generations of ineffective parenting, where does one learn effective parenting? It once was available in the community. There is not black community to do this, now. Presently, the black poor are characterized as stupid, sex-a-holics, womanizers, misygonists, childbearing machines, etc...how can i have any respect for someone who characterizes me as such, how could we "break bread," especially these folk really think all of the problems of black poor people and black people in general is inherent in me...like a disease w/ no cure?
Instead of making the point that we are, about 2 fronts(with difference emphasis, of course), these rhetoricians are catapulting themselves forward as "civilized" and educated representatives/models of the race who've demonstrated through their individual efforts and success that racism and unfairness are not variables for poverty among people of color...This is what is rubbish!
Exceptions to rules....of course, who thought otherwise...there are always exceptions to rules, but I wasn't talking about "rules." Though we try to live by rules, human history has not. Again, if you reread my post I'm talking about world history, so my point is not loose at all. In world history, from the origins of humans to the present, poor people have been criminalized...one because they had less resources and less political power, and two, because those with power also have the power to camoflauge their owns crimes...third, the crimes of the powerful oft hit us inconspicuously (white collar crimes and welfare capitalism), and the poor folks crime hits up directly and so it is more immediate and easier to identify--to point fingers, to place blames on things that go beyond the individual crime.
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Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 32
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 09:42 pm: |
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Yukio
Now, in your third post, all you are doing is continuing to elaborate as to why you feel the bigger problems lie within the "structrual" issues --nothing that is so far out there that it is soooo hard to comprehend. Your point is valid, however, not some deep concept.
While I agree with you that some rhetoricians are in the wrong, there are some that aren't. For the ones who aren't (the ones who walk their talk), there isn't anything left but the people choosing death for their very own life. How much education and funding does it take for two, rational human beings to realize that sex creates babies? How much education or funding does it take for any woman to realize that being a parent, especially a single parent, is nothing but hard work? If she came from a single parent home how much "know how" does it take to know that, that is not what she wants for her own life? How can she blame anyone, or anything else when she is the one lying on her own back? No one has to be a rocket scientist to realize simple truths. It all boils down to choice. Whether one chooses to effectively or ineffectively parent, that again is their choice. All these issues transcend race. Presently, the poor in general are characterized as stupid, sex-a-holics, womanizers, misygonists, child-bearing machines, etc., not just the black poor. Now as far as you not having any respect for these "some" that don't respect you, that is your personal issue to overcome. You will meet people you like and people you don't like. Everyone has to reconcile issues like this and each journey to conclusion/peace is very personal.
We disagree, that's it! My humility and sincerity cannot be measured, and is not measured, based on the merit that I disagree with you.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 668
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 11:48 am: |
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Uh oh, Yukio. Twould seem you may have met in Moonsigns your rhethorical match!
HAHA! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 416
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 12:41 pm: |
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You would think that abm. But tell me this, was she also YOUR match? |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 286
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 01:04 pm: |
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Would Moonsigns be a match for any of us? Is any one else getting turned on by all of this? Tell the truth...huh?...just me, huh? Oh...alright. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 628
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 01:09 pm: |
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abm: you're right...haha!
moonsigns: Stop. The issue is not whether we agree or disagree. The issue was whether you (1) exploited/abused my points/post to make your point and (2) if you "fully understood" my points. Remember?
I'm not trying to "measure" your humility; i was solely poking fun at the contradiction between your farewells and arrogance--the arrogance that stated that you knew my point "all along" and that you "fully" understood when you did not. And you still don't.
If return to my post addressed to you u would realize that this is not a debate,(i've done this particular debate with cynique, abm, ch, and others already, many, many times). Sorry, you didn't get my initial post. But I wonder if you'll believe me? Will u? Cuz, of course, you "fully" comprehend my mind better than I do *eye brows raised*....
P.S.
Where's the apology?
Much respect and blessings(for real!) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 669
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 01:15 pm: |
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A_womon,
Hmmmm?
I suppose I don't know. Because, to be fair, I find it difficult for me to make an objective assessment of that. Thus, I will leave it to you an others to decide.
Though, I would say I am thus far so impressed by Moonsigns to appreciate any such comparison.
Lambd,
Heh?? |
Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 33
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 11:53 pm: |
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Yukio
You have stated crystal clear that (A) the rhetoric of social responsibility is what you dislike, (B) social responsibility is not rubbish, (C) however, personal responsibility and integrity is indeed "rubbish" -it only serves to prove ourselves to others, and (D) personal responsibility is "an essential but small part of a larger chunk that goes under-evaluated." You laid out your opinion clearly and precisely (though there are apparent contradictions). You are treating your view as if it is biochemistry, or something I need to decode --which it is neither!
Why you continue to insist that I didn't (and still don't) get your point is beyond me, especially considering I've stated and explained otherwise. I find it odd that you want to question my humility and sincerity, and go as far as to call me arrogant all because you've convinced yourself of this lie --that I never got your point. If you choose to believe this, so be it. I refuse to expend anymore energy in entertaining stubborness.
The latter (C & D) are complete contradictions --contradictions that you wrote/shared and supported yourself. Let me explain. At the heart of social repsonsibility lies personal responsibility. Seeing that you value social responsibility, but consider personal responsibility to be "rubbish" (your words Yukio), it is quite easy for me to understand why you expect an apology for your self-exploitation. There will be no apology for extremely obvious reasons.
Regarding whatever debate you've had with others --of what importance is that here? Just as the asinine comments about my humility, sincerity and arrogance are irrelevant to this conversation, that is too. Black men in prison and black men paying prisons to host their video is the topic at hand --not what you think I'm thinking I know and not what you think I'm really about. Stay on topic.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 287
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 07:50 am: |
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I think I just had an orgasmic event.
Moonsigns, I love the way you write. You remind me of Cynique in alot of ways.
Excuse me, I need a drink of water. I'm suddenly very thirsty.
Abm: Hmm???
A_woman: Hehh???
Yukio: Do you really think you know what she's thinking you're thinking or are you thinking that she just thinks you're thinking something you aren't thinking at all? Think about it. I think it makes sense...At least that's what I'm thinking. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 425
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 07:58 am: |
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whut evvvvvvv errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!!! |
Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 34
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 09:48 am: |
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Lambd
If you are indeed being serious, thank you. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 676
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 02:25 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
I hope you will pardon my intruding on your lil' squabble with Yukio. I have after a MYRIAD discussions with Yukio (eventually) come to think that he 'enjoys' arguing for simply the sake of such. Actually, in a strange way, it's a part of his 'charm'.
Just be patient. You'll get used to it. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 288
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 02:33 pm: |
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Oh I'm serious, babee! You and Cynique always make my shorts tight! OOoops! I'm sorry. I guess I should have said you and Cynique make my marbles roll...that really doesn't make sense but I thought it might get past some of these fuddy duddies around here easier. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 679
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 02:36 pm: |
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Lambd says: "You and Cynique always make my shorts tight!"
ABM says: That's wouldn't also be caused by an involuntary bowl movement? Would it?
HEHE! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 629
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 03:43 pm: |
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lambd: exactly! she just thinks i'm thinking something i'm not thinking.
abm: i'm not arguing w/moonsigns. Thats part of what she doesn't get. To disagree on a point is not an argument.
moonsigns: so i've made asinine comments, eh? Well, thats an opinion. I stated that you're arrogant, it seems to me, cause you stated that you fully understood something and you did not. And i stated that u abused exploited by usuage of personal responsibilty being rubbish...u took it out of context....and proceeding to demonstrate how u didn't understand why it was there...lmao!
And now, "feature that", I'm a liar because I know what I think and you don't want to accept that I told you that u didn't get it....Are u a mind reader or perhaps you have too much faith in the written word? What ever it is, it is clear that I'm the originator of my post and you are the interpreter...so its really simple, i have no reason to lie, but you didn't get it! And thats ok...
You also stated that you will apologize, assuming, it seems, that you wouldn't have to...lmao! So, when i ask for the apology, I'm the bad guy *eye brows raised*.....
You have confused the topic( rhetoricians) w/my critique of their incomplete analysis. In other words, you seem to partially understand my ideas on structural and social responsibility, but didn't initially, it seems, understand I was criticizing these rhetoricians usage of the personal and social responsibility argument. If so, i would hope, you would have understood that i wasn't talking about personal responsibility in a vacuum. When u addressed my post, you only commented on the "rubbish" element of my statements but NOT the ESSENTIAL point that i was criticizing the people whose analysis is limited to a focus on social and individual responsiibility. Then, again, u assume that I'm talking about rhetoricians in general rather than the ones i've already specified. Consequently, you proceed on more of my comments that were understood out of context. When they were ALL related to rhetoricians who specially argue that blacks are lazy and sex crazed and that poor people's poverty is a result of their behavior rather than a combination of their behavior and racism. Read thomas sowell, one of the rhetoricians i had in mind.
Again, read the post, if u choose, as a paragraph rather than quasi-related sentences. Read the topic sentence as the topic of the paragraph.
COnsider my alleged contradiction: C pertains to its use as rhetoric by the rhetoricians and D pertains to its use in a general sense. In other words, I disagree w/the rhetoricians who solely focus on social and personal responsibiltiy and claim racism doesn't exist BUT I DO believe that social and personal responsibility are fundamental to the liberation of black people and especially poor people. Again, u missed this. So how can u tell me u understand?
abm: btw, i dialogue and engage, not argue or debate...thats seems to be your trade of choice. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 958
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 04:05 pm: |
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My dictionary does not say that "nigger" is derived from the word "niggardly." It says it is a derivative of the word negro - which is an alteration of earlier neger, from Middle French negre, from Spanish or Portuguese negro, from Latin niger, all meaning "black."
The word negro when applied to African American slaves undoubtedly evolved into "nigra" and finally ended up being "nigger."
(Just in case you're wondering, consulting the dictionary is part of the book-reading project which is prompting me to cut back on posting. LOL) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 681
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 04:19 pm: |
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Yukio,
(Here we go, foks.)
I, perhaps unlike you, to not intend for “argue” to have have a negative connotation, To me, that word primarily means to engage in an conversation whereby an broad assortment of viewpoints on an issue(s) are exchanged. Of course, to maintain such a discussion, points of disagreement must be expressed. That to me is what it means to “argue”.
Thus, in describing you, I would say that you might enjoy “arguing” primarily for the purposes of exploring the many facets of an issue.
Would you agree?
Perhaps we are talking semantics here. But for practical purposes, I see little difference between "dialogue and engage" and "argue or debate". In fact, any MEANINGFUL discourse would likely include healthy portions of ALL of those. |
Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 40
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 11, 2004 - 07:58 pm: |
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"The wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round"......... |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 460
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 14, 2004 - 11:59 pm: |
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Where are you Yukio???? I'll be so glad when you finish your damned thesis!!!
I take that back! You, Yukio are another fine example of the oftimes wrong and skewed statistics of failure and degradation of young black america!!!!
hmmmmmmm maybe it's time for us to do our own surveys about the state of black americans and quit relying on people who really just are stuck on projecting a one dimensional picture of who we are. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 737
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 09:26 am: |
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A_womon says: "...time for us to do our own surveys about the state of black americans and quit relying on people..."
ABM says: I couldn't agree more. I have said (many) times before Blacks must create/control some significant portion of the media, schools, business, etc. if we are ever to control how your(our) story is to be told. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 631
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 01:04 am: |
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abm: Lets leave it where it is. Let me state this: I don't "argue" just for the sake of it.
Regarding my "squabble" w/moonsigns: How can someone tell u what u think or mean unless they're a mind reader? How does that reader tell they author what he/she meant? Is that not a form of arrogance?
Anyway abm, it is just interesting and amusing that she attempts to take the dignified, innocent stance when it seems she's drowning in doubt, denial and delusion. She offers an apology, but where is it? Lmao! But'll stop pestering her. I've had my fun. I do wonder, however, where the personal responsibility has gone?
svengali...oops, i mean moonsigns: Are the wheels sa'pose ta convince someone that u can read minds? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 760
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 07:40 am: |
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Yukio,
Man. We are ALL reading minds around here. Really, everytime one person attempts to communicate with another, their is a form of 'telepathy' occurring. The only difference is how effectively we engaging is such.
I can't explain WHY Moonsigns communicates as she does. Maybe what she does is indeed hubris. Or perhaps that is her way of disagreeing without trying to appear disagreeable. Or maybe she was simply raised/trained to responded a certain way when she's being confronted.
Who knows...
And how else would you have Moonsigns respond to your confrontational utterances? What do you expect?
Should she concur with everything you say?
Should she ignore you?
Should she curse you out?
Or should she simply call you an ignorant n@&&*#?
I am sure I have done MANY things that have pissed you and everyone else off. And lifewise could be said of you. But dude, at some point, every mature person realizes that we all think/see/do things differently. And if we are to ever find some productive common ground, we must all accept that and more forward. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 633
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:17 am: |
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abm: we all read minds, eh? thats an opinion. I wouldn't call interpretation 'telepathy.' One can always ask the author what they mean...but this isn't what happened, here.
Lets stop, here. For your post doesn't at all address my exchange w/moonsigns, so is the dilemma of wordplay. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 643
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 03:12 pm: |
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abm: I know I said i would leave it where it is, sorry. But i missed your last paragraph, some how....and really don't understand its relevance. So i'll briefly answer your questions and hope you'll answer mine.
1. As i understood my posts, it was not confrontational. I asked her not to exploit my post to make her point, and suggested that she did so in haste. I constantly used words like "seem," etc....to suggest that is was on purpose.
Perhaps, it is confrontational to call someone arrogant. But, and here u and I may disagree, I don't think so when a person tells me that they know what I think when they do not. It is one thing when 2 people disagree about what a third person writes, for there are different interpretions and they often don't have access to the third person. BUt it is arrogant for a person to tell the author that he/she understands the author when the author tells them the person does not. There should be no disagreement about own ideas. I can't read your post and tell u what u meant. I can tell u what I think about it and what it sounds like, but never what U meant.
2. No. she should not concur w/ everything i said. Ironically, as I stated, my request had nothing to do with our differences. As far as I was concerned, there was no debate. Again, I address the issue of her exploitating my post. My clarification of my points had to do with demonstrating that she DID NOT understanding my post and consequenly took my words out of context rather than an attempt to disprove or disagree w/the content of her analysis. There is a difference.
3.If she wants to ignore me...fine.
4.if she desires to call me an ignorant n@&&*#...it is her perogative.
You state:
"But dude, at some point, every mature person realizes that we all think/see/do things differently."
I ask:
what does maturity have to do/ with my engagement w/moonsigns?
Also, where can it be said that I don't accept that we think/see/do things differently? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 779
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 03:34 pm: |
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Yukio,
That was a caprious response that I wish I could have deleted.
I was in error. And for that I apologize. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 646
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 17, 2004 - 03:44 pm: |
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abm: Thanks, but no apology necessary. It is better to ask questions as we both did. |
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