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Ylonjure
Newbie Poster
Username: Ylonjure
Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 08:50 pm: | 
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first off-i am a black woman. i am enraged at peoples views on black men trying to be with white women. is there any black women who is turning down white men, saying "i don't want to take away from you being with your race"? no, because it is a double standard. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 118
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 04:02 am: |
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Wow........aahhh, what, what are you talking about? You're just kidding us with these posts......aren't you? You will have to excuse me but your posts seem to fall out of nowhere. I mean, while trying to read your posts, I feel as if I've walked in on the end of a movie.
Carey |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 439
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 09:55 am: |
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Ylonjue:
1) What people's views?
2) Posted, uttered, written,where and when?
3) Do you have any statistics to back up what you have posted here?
4) If you are just venting, that is allright--it might help if you put up a vent flag or something so we would know. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 593
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 10:51 am: |
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chris and carey: Ylonjure is suggesting that it is a double standard to date based upon sporadic racial loyalty...that black women can have the freedom to date white men w/o the fear of destroying the white race, but white women don't have the same freedom because they would be destroying the black race.
Ylonjure, it seems, is stating that black men should have as much right to date white women as black women to date white men... |
Ylonjure
Newbie Poster
Username: Ylonjure
Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 11:53 am: |
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thank you yukio. you seemed to have said it better than i. that is exactly what i was trying to say. carey and chrishayden-this is not "the end of a movie" i posted this as a new thread. you know, something new to start a discussion on. we tend to have a stigma against our black men dating white women, however, is destroying the black race the real reason, or are black women dancing around a deeper issue other than that. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 440
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 04:09 pm: |
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Yukio:
I must take away your gold star. You balled it up again.
Personally I believe anybody can date anybody they want to. I know that this is America and that it ain't gonna be just like that-people are gonna have problems.
I think anybody who dates anybody simply because of the color of their skin is sick. But they probably are not unique.
Who is this they? I have heard plenty of brothers call black women sell outs, uncle toms, aunt jemimas, race haters, etc because they dated white men. I think anybody who is opposed to race mixing is opposed to it regardless of gender as far as white people are concerned too.
The fear among white people is that white women would be destroying the white race by dating black men (and maybe having sex with them and maybe bringing non white babies into the world--there seems to not be the same corresponding fear of white men among the white race dating black women--maybe marrying them.
Ylonjure:
Who is this "we"? As I stated, I feel like anybody should be able to date anybody they want. Most Americans, black and white, don't feel this way. That's on whoever wants to go through those changes.
I would say that very often when black men date white women, the brother is successful, educated, etc. The impression is raised, true or not, that dating a white woman is a mark of success, a status symbol. Rarely does a street or poor brother wind up with a rich white girl--
Anyway, why so coy? What do you think it is? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 855
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 04:49 pm: |
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Um, Viggo. Did you get the message I left on your answering machine, babe? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 595
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 22, 2004 - 09:57 pm: |
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chrishayden: You need to learn to decipher explanation/interpretation from argument/position. I explained Ylonjure's post. |
Bleekindigo
Regular Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 30
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 12:17 pm: |
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I am guilty. I do have issue with black men and white women. For years, I have been trying to understand this dilemma within.
I always come back I think to black men being hanged, castrated, burned and murdered for white men's insecurities where white women and black men were/are concerned.
I think of situations such as that of Rosewood and I fester.
I was once part of a situation where a white woman that a black friend of mine was dating--took it upon herself to kindly inform my friend that I was a racist. I had never had an in depth discussion with this woman. We had all gone out to dinner and we discussed dinner and she discussed the trashiness of other white women attending the function. We drank and we said our goodbyes. And from that-she devised that I was a racist.
I could not help but believe that she had been intimidated by my very dark skin and nappy locks and could not understand nor was she interesting in understanding why she'd felt that way--and so she deemed me the problem--rather than probe herself.
Or maybe there is something about me that says out loud (even without me opening my mouth) that I take issue with black men and white women relationships??
Needless to say, this incident made my dilemma all the more powerful.
On the other hand, a family member of mine is married to a white woman. He has been for over 10 years. She in my eyes is family???
I do not know if in my mind I have somehow stripped her of her race or made an exception for her because everyone else in my family accepts her indiscriminately???
I have no desire to be a humanist. I do not believe that I am interested in housing characteristics such as those a misanthrope might hold either-but I would like to better understand my issue with--this issue.
Now that I think of it, I don't know if my beef is with the white woman who dates the black man or the black man who dates a white woman or both. ???
Siiiiigh...
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 331
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 01:28 pm: |
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Bleek,
I am feeling that to the max!!! You echo my sentiments on the matter. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 520
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 12:05 pm: |
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It seems that single Black women do not suffer alone these duplicitous feelings about multiracial coupling that you ladies concede to.
My wife will openly wax rhapsodically about Pierce ("James Bond") Brosnan, Matt ("Bourne Supremacy") Damon and George ("Ocean 11") Clooney.
But let me so much as 'look' (well, okay...'gawk') at an Angeline ("Lara Krofts") Jolie, Catherine ("Chicago") Zeta-Jones or Uma ("Kill Bill") Thurman and I am made to endure a delude of accusations about how I have feebly succumbed to some "Westernized" delusions about White female beauty.
When are you ladies going to realize that you can't have your cake and eat it too? If 'doin' dah swirl' is 'bad' for a brothah, it also is 'bad' for you. |
Bleekindigo
Regular Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 12:53 pm: |
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Abm you said: If 'doin' dah swirl' is 'bad' for a brothah, it also is 'bad' for you.
You may very well be correct in that statement, but why do you think that black women feel that way? I am the same as your wife--I can gawk over Matt Damon or Clooney, but the minute my love even looks as if he is to fix his mouth to acknoweledge the beauty of a white woman my face gets tight!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 334
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 01:00 pm: |
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ABM Bleek,
I think Looking at some unattainable somebody is quite different than looking at someone who you could get with, ok?
I wouldn't care if my boyfriend drooled all over some movie starlet, how could it hurt me?
But if we walkin in a Mall or something and his eyes get to wandering to some pink girls, then oh, isssssssss onnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 856
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 01:06 pm: |
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Viggo, got your message. Wednesday is fine. Smoooches. |
Bleekindigo
Regular Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 36
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 01:15 pm: |
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Yes, A_womon I agree.
And, I have no problem with him noticing a beautiful black woman and commenting on her beauty to me or even taking a second look. I am totally fine with that, because I like to enjoy the beauty of black men too--but my stomach turns if the woman's beauty that he is admiring -is white.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 524
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:10 pm: |
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Bleekindigo,
You of course know better than I do how/what a Black woman thinks. But I suspect it is for many of the reason that are often cited:
@ The apparent possibility of Black women loosing out one of the few 'good black men' to non-Black females
@ The inanely ubiquitous glorification of the White feminine beauty
@ Many black men preferring White/Light skin females
@ White/Light skin females being granted assorted socio-economic preferences/deferences
A_womon,
I used celebrities to provide some point of reference that we might all be able to recall. You make a good point: It is one thing to drool over some chick on the celluloid, it is quite another to droll over her in the supermarket. However, I do think it bears noting that even in a situation where neither is ever likely to meet, much less knock-boots, with any of those people, she still harbors an inconsistent bias.
All,
I empathize with much of that sentiment. I have 2 young daughters. I see them unfairly struggle with how they are suppose to feel about themselves amid a world that would have them look like Hillary Duff and the Olsen Twins.
But your righteous indignation loose all credibility when you get pissed at a brother for checking out a Britney Spears yet you yourself get all 'moist' over a Colin Ferrell.
You know what is interesting though is that my wife admiring some White dude does not in anyway offend me. Actually, I am slightly 'intrigued' by that. I just have a difficult time being jealous of White guys.
("Brad Pitt is gonna be able to 'bring it to sistah' like I can? Yeah, RIGHT! HEHE!")
Yeah, they've got virtually all the money, power, esteem, etc. But still, call it self-assuredness, arrogance...delusions of grandeur, I'll never look at a White man as in anyway being more appealing as a man than I am.
Lastly, I will say that part of what afflicts you sistah is not entirely about race per se. Part of this is about that rampant feline jealousy that prevails among ALL females, no matter their race. To some extent, the element of race provides just a convenient excuse for a woman, no matter her color, to partake of a most popular, time-honored feminine past time: To enjoy HATING another woman beyond all human reason. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 335
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 02:49 pm: |
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Im not so sure about that hatin on women type thang fitting all of us women, although I will grant you that may be true of SOME women, they do love to hate on each other for no good reason. IE: she light skinned so she thank she cute, she got on gucci so she think she all that...etc and nine times out of ten the women have never spoken to one another!! But as I say that's just Some women.
I am not like that. |
Bleekindigo
Regular Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 03:17 pm: |
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Nor am I that way Abm. I do know women who are though. So, you weren't totally wrong in the thought.
On another note though, I think that "hating" is definitely to easy an answer for such a huge dilemma that so many women have when it comes to this issue. I think that the fear of black women losing yet another eligible bachelor plays a part--But again, I am not one of those women-
@ The inanely ubiquitous glorification of the White feminine beauty
@ Many black men preferring White/Light skin females
@ White/Light skin females being granted assorted socio-economic preferences/deferences
The last three possibilities--I think you are definitely onto something there. When I think of myself and this issue and I think of the three points you made above. I cringe which usually for me means--yes, there is more than an ounce of truth there.
Thank you for the insight.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 525
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 03:55 pm: |
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My Dear Ladies,
You are correct. I should avoid speaking in absolutes. Certainly not ALL women behave that way. And I am sure you both are much more self-assured and well-adjusted than that.
BUT...
...Like Chris Rock says, women will never be able to challenge men for control of the world because you all enjoy loathing each other too much.
That's why I laugh at all of the speculation about Hillary Clinton running for President in 2008. We all know that she will NEVER get elected because at least 1/2 of all American women hate Hillary with a passion (and many of them would screw Bill on top of her finest linen just to spite her).
Sisters ALWAYS rant on about brothers cheatin'. But one of the biggest reasons why it so easy for men to get away with cheatin' is at least 1/2 of your girlfriends will 'belly clap' with your man without him hardly having to ask for it.
But what is most bizarre about SOME women is how you can so thoroughly hate and yet love each other.
Some of you will screw each other husbands, fight and cry about it, then commiserate, hug/kiss blame the whole thing on the men then go shopping together all within the space of a week.
Well, again, to be fair...that's only "SOME women". I am certain that you A_womon would not be such a female.
HEHE! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 336
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 04:15 pm: |
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Unh Unh I aint NEVER gonna be that friendly with ANY woman!!! Never to the point that she think that Im going to find out that she been with MY Man and Im going to play kiss and make up after that ish!!
First of all she was never my friend cuz a real friend would never even think about screwing ya man. PERIOD. I wish a friend's man WOULD try to spit game at me, I will set him straight from the gate, and THEN I will tell his woman that he tried
Nah, Nah that will never go down with me, and the woman that stabs me in the back will never call me friend again!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 526
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 05:00 pm: |
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A_womon,
Yawl always SAY "She bettah not be doing!...Ain't nobody bettah ever screw my man!...If he did you, you and me are thru!"...etc...etc. But I have been in...<<"uhn>>...seen...<<"clearingthroat">>...heard about (yeah. that's it: "heard about") too many 'situations' where women will loudly/proudly proclaim how they would NEVER be in such a situation yet some how they end up playin' or getting played by "a friend" in this way only for things to eventually get smooth over.
"Awl! Come on now baby! We didn't mean to do it. She was lying down. You know we wouldn't try to hurt you.
Well. See. Uh? I was just casually walking by. Right? You know, minding mine. All of a sudden...outtah now where...I slipped (I think the floor was wet) and fell, of all the possible places, right down on top of her.
And well, you know I was going to get right up. But dang! My fly was open. Wouldn't you know it, so was her's. And we just kinda got stuck together for a little while. I think our zippers got entwined.
So whatchu saw was not REALLY whatchu saw. We were just pushing and pulling to try to get free. But we thought, if we try to got in and out, that would help get us free. So that's what we were doing: going in and out, in and out...IN AND OUT!
And can you believe it, just before you walked thru the door, we were ALMOST free.
BELIEVE me, Baby! I promise. The whole thing was an accident!...I promise!"
"Uh! Well. Okay baby. I believe you. And I will mop the floor, just so it don't happen again. Oh! Grab your purse and come on girl. Let's go shopping. They've got a 50% off sale at Bloomingdales!"
HEHE! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 337
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 05:08 pm: |
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ABM,
any woman who believe that ISH is MUD and we all know that MUD spelled backwards is DUM(b)/!!!! |
Bleekindigo
Regular Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 10:29 am: |
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Abm:
I'm sure that we've all proclaimed certain things in our lives that have turned out not to be so. I've had some, " I wish I would" moments. I wish I would allow this, I wish he would try this or she might try that.
None like the scenario's you've given of course but i've had those moments. And, they were actually more enlightening than anything. They made me understand the importance of being modest and keeping the head at it's normal weight and keeping it out of the clouds-all the time. (It's okay to walk with your head in the clouds some of the time)--just watch the moutains. Cuz your butt might trip!
My Uncle Sonny-Boy if nothing else, always warned me. He'd say, "Don't let your ignorance, over-dominate your capabilities."
And so, I do not wish that he would or she would or I would anymore, because one of us just might "would" and then i'm going to trip over a mountain and knot up my forehead and then everyone's gonna know that I was walking around talkin' bout--"I wish a M$*%@#@#& would" (Cedric the Entertainer!!) And what do you know--a
M%$#^&$# did! |
Moonsigns
First Time Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 12:36 pm: |
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Hello everyone! I'm just passing through --thought I'd share a different perspective.
This issue is indeed complex and delicate. Complex because everyone seems to have an opinion. Delicate because it deals with self-love/self-acceptance at it's core.
History has proved to have it's downfalls. Yes, we still feel the repercussions. There is more opportunity for all people, however, there will always been undercurrents of racism, sexism and capitalism (which is unfortunate). Current American culture, with it's strong emphasis on sensuality (beauty/standards) and capitalism ("bling-bling" mentality), can make both males and females (regardless of race) feel inadequate at any given time. However, I think all people have to make an effort to not allow false realities to dicatate how they feel about themselves, as well as those they encounter on a daily basis.
There are many, many statments/comments that I've read here (especially in the poetry) that reflect pain. While I do think that standards for beauty are unjust, I also believe that women must work to honor one anothers integrity (regardless of race). Making comparisons to body structure, hair, and name calling only perpetuate stereotypes and hatred. Reconciling pain requires responsiblity for ALL women. I happened to stumble across the poem about black women's booty --something like that. It disheartened me to read the content of that poem. Why care about a fat ass or flat ass when black women have the highest AIDS rate compared to any other group of women? It's ridiculous to me when there are more pressing issues concerning women. ALL women have beauty and grand things to offer the world. Caring about who's body is more desirable, whose hair is "better" or "good", or who is wearing designer clothes is really irrelevant when these things are literally killing us (women). Be mindful!
Love is love. If you think you deserve happiness by giving and receiving it don't dare try to deny someone else that natural, human emotion. If a person has a prob with seeing one HUMAN being with another HUMAN being just because of race, there is something wrong with you! If you try to psychoanalyze the situation you have way too much time on your hands. Love can't be boxed. If you think so, heal yourself. Love has been given to us from God to share and to receive freely and openly. It is only in our humaness that we pervert it. Understanding that it not something to possess or own is liberating!
Now, let's be realisitc, most men and women (regardless of race) still date/marry within their race. There is no shortage. Work on yourself and what you give to the world comes back to you!
Lastly, being a humanist is an integral part of the human experience. One cannot separate themselves from that truth and expect peace.
Peace
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 532
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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Bleekindigo,
Well said. Love can make you blind to even that which is most clearly/plainly evident.
I have known a few brothers who have as well been on stank end of a "I wish she would cheat on me." only to discover that their "wish" did indeed come true. And I am telling you, ain’t nothing sadder, more pitiful than a Black man who has discovered his woman is riding rawhide with another cowboy.
Actually, it probably easier for women to cheat on their men in part because many of us are too self-deluded to consider the posibility of such.
I had a conversation once with a married guy who was an inverterate cheater. He waxed on for > an hour about all of the "you-know-what" he has ‘popped’ post-marriage. So finally, tiring of his bravado I asked him what would you do if you discovered your wife was tossin’ it up with another playah and she was doin it via ‘ways/means’ that she had NEVER even considered enjoying with you. What would you do?
Dude stopped in mid-sentence. Looked at me like he wanted punch me in the face. Started exclaiming that that WOULD never happened. I asked him how do you know she don’t already know about what you’re doing and are paying you back big time with mailman. And why can’t she do (at least once) what he has enjoyed so frequently doing.
He, of course, hurled the duplicitous spiel about men and women being different, yadda...yadda! Finally, I said, ok dude, whatever...I just hope you don’t get put on some of the receiving end of what you’re dealing. Then he suddenly started yelling at me even to the point of not-so-subtly accusing me of wanting to nail his wife (who, I admit, was a hottie, but, even if she were game, I just don’t ride like that).
Honestly, I think he became so distraught about being made to consider the possibility of his wife doing unto him what he had to her, he almost started to cry. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 534
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 01:43 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
Thanks for adding your "lunar logic" to our discussion. Your contributions are appreciated as they are enjoyed.
But tell us: How do your propose that people learn to "make an effort to not allow false realities to dicatate how they feel about themselves." and that women "work to honor one anothers integrity"? Because the concepts of these sort are often exclaimed...but the application of them are rarely explained.
And which poem are you referring to that "disheartened" you? And what’s wrong with "honoring black women's booty"? Does honoring some facet of feminine beauty inherent preclude us from addressing other more pressing issues?
If that is what you think, I somewhat disagree. I don’t think confronting the scourge of HIV/AIDS would be marketedly enhanced if we set aside appreciation of feminine beauty. Moreover, I think people will always seek/find ways/means to observe/honor some form of human esthetic, irrespective of the chaos that surrounds us.
And that is indeed a good thing.
Life is to be enjoyed.
I would agree that we are perhaps being surfeited by such glorification to the point of unhealthy distraction. And there is a myriad unfair biases that result in some being celebrated and others castigated, which that causes rampant confusion, anxiety and depression about who/what we are or should be. But that is more a function of our own selfish/prejudices, not the fault of admiring beauty in of itself.
The act of appreciating the most profoundly true and basic art, the human body is indeed a legitimate and worthy human endeavor.
I agree with your next-to-last paragraph. The hysteria of interracial coupling is often grossly overblown. But the one before and after it got a bit too touchy-feeling for me. HEHE!
Blinkindigo,
That "I wish a M$*%@#@#& would" quip by Cedric the Entertainer!! is a hoot. Isn’t it? HEHE! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 598
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 03:31 pm: |
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moonsigns: interesting comments...while you are endorsing humanism, it seems to me, you forgot to include that there is diversity within humanity.
Also, black women's affirmation of their body is often both defensive and progressive, since it affirms the beauty of their physiological aesthetics, but often problematic when it can often create disgust for what is different. The point is, and what seems to be missing in your post, is that difference is difference, but teh false realities are ushered down black folks throat...for centuries...thus, to really change this we must do it internally, as you suggest, and also societally, which will provide different versions of beauty...rather than the normal "beautiful" white women (blond) and the "exotic" latina (brasil) and exotic black women (african or caribbean or afro-european..african american models are out of style)...this is an issue in modeling, soap operas, movies(halle scary...where's angela?)singers...beyonce, alicia, even the jill scott, though she has some weight on her...did u know there is a study that argues that many of the homeless are darkskinned? |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 04:07 pm: |
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Abm
How do I propose that people not allow false realities to dictate how they feel about themselves and others? Very simple!!!!
Turn off the T.V. and pick up a book! The tv is chock full of false deptictions, junk "reality" shows and images of unhealthy living and lifestyles.
Turn off the video games and put down the junk magazines! Go to the zoo, on a hike, learn a new hobby, take a language class, take a cooking class or something that stimulates the mind. This day and age, especially in America, the average person has access to things that can better themselves.
Women working on honoring one another's integrity is also very simple. Be mindful of unproductive conversation --another words, gossip. We do it all the time and usually out of insecurity. I know so because I am a woman and I've been around women all my life. Instead of speaking death about someone, speak life. If we are going to talk, uplift --and teach our daughters this principle at a young age. I share all this because I'm constantly evolving and striving for this myself. It is just a better way to live and it helps to bring peace!
Abm, there is not one thing wrong with honoring the feminine principle/energy. A woman's body is like fine art! I love reading poetry that appreciates and values the female body! However, that poem I read was based in insecurity. Self-confidence and the proclaimation of one's beauty does not come at the expense of another woman's unattractivenss. The unjust beauty standards of our time are based on the merit that white beauty is beautiful for it is everything that non-white beauty is not. My beauty as a woman just "is", not because another woman's "isn't" --do you get what I'm getting at? True beauty is majestic and splendid all by itself and does not need deny the true beauty of something else (in this case another woman) for it to be just that. Every race of women have something really beautiful about them. If women can't acknowledge that, I think it's mainly because they are not confident in their own. Some of the most intriguing, intelligent, attractive and beatiful women I have met never need to make comparisons about what they are and what another woman isn't. They are regal and relish in that --I think that is amazing! It is such positive energy!
All in all, when women are healthy in mind, body, soul and heart they generally attract healthy mates. My main point is that when women are so overcome with the standards that they world creates for them, they suffer immensely. It creates a downward spiral in all areas of life --to the point that when they go out they are psychoanalyzing relationships they aren't even a part of. That is crazy and too time consuming! It's time they could use to better themselves! So, what I'm trying to say is that be true to yourself, heal yourself, love yourself. Love is given to us freely and is to be shared freely --regardless of race! When you work towards self-improvement you make your life better as well as the lives that you come in contact with!
Much respect!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 863
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 04:10 pm: |
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The "ethnic" look is currently in, that term referring to a kind of multi-racial mix. BTW there are universal standards for beauty and it all has to do with facial symmetry. Tests after tests have shown that males are always drawn to female faces that are oval in shape with eyes that are wideset and slightly slanted, cheekbones that are high, noses that are short, lips that are curved, and smiles that are bright. These tests were also administered to babies with the same results. Obviously, this prototype is found in all races. Of course, this is not the only model that men are are attracted to, but it is the predominate one. |
Bleekindigo
Regular Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 40
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 04:15 pm: |
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Moonsigns you said: ...being a humanist is an integral part of the human experience. One cannot separate themselves from that truth and expect peace.
I'm pondering over that idea.
Thanks for chiming in.
Bleek- |
Bleekindigo
Regular Poster
Username: Bleekindigo
Post Number: 41
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 04:21 pm: |
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Yukio-
I didn't know that there had been such a study done. Can you recommend a site or a book? I'd like to read more on the issue.
Thanks for that-
Bleek |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 599
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 05:36 pm: |
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bleekindigo: The book is called Sister Circle: Black Women and Work, ed. Sharon Harley. The entire book is good, but read the essay entitled: The Black Side of the Mirror: The Black Body in the Workplace, by Tanya Lovell Banks. It is the first essay after the introduction.
http://rutgerspress.rutgers.edu/acatalog/__Sister_Circle_784.html |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 543
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 05:39 pm: |
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Yukio/Bleekindigo,
We all know that throughout the world, the darker one is the more the social, economic and political systems conspire against them. So it should be no surprise that this would be reflected in the homelessness statistics. I would also wager that a high percentage of our most affluent Blacks females are of very light (many perhaps due to recent mix breeding) complexion.
Moonsigns,
I appreciate your very eloquent response. I am almost get the impression that you could (perhaps even do) earn a living sharing such wisdom.
However, you describe the WAY to personal and communal enlighten and prosperity when I think that it is WILL that we are most lacking. Yes, your ideas require that we exert a sincere and abiding effort to change. I, alas, wonder whether we really even really want to change, assuming we even had the skills, energy and resources to do so.
Can a book supplant that more immediate (albeit less substantive) thrill of "video games"? Sure for some of us it can. But how do we reach many others who have been relentlessly bombarded in almost every walk of their lives with images/messages to enjoy that which is more readily available to them? Moreover, how do you foster reading in a land where its most esteemed citizen, its President, proudly brags about eschewing reading?
Again, this is not just about WHAT we can do but also WHETHER, given the opportunity to, we would do so.
I especially appreciate your comments on how feminine beauty should best be altruistically observed and admired, though being a man I, of course, view such from a, shall I say, ‘crasser’ perspective.
But, I empathize with why some women of color may be inclined to assert some distinction between themselves and others, especially when the standards of said others have been harshly wielded over them. But perhaps (or at least I hope), as was suggested by Cynique, we are indeed evolving into a society that is more appreciate of a broader, more ‘colorful’, spectrum of beauty.
Still, as I said before, I suspect that no matter the race, color, creed of the females, women will always seek/find reasons to physically distinguish their appearance...and those who manage to most successfully do so will paradoxically earnestly admired and severely hated by their peers.
BTW: What is a "humanist"? Is that some kind of West Coast cult?
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 346
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 06:17 pm: |
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Hey All,
A woman must learn to love herself in this society, and a black woman must study hard and dig deep to learn this lesson.
Moonsigns, you ask why should we worry about fat asses or flat asses when Aids is killing more of us than ever...if you will excuse the slight paraphrase.
If a woman doesn't love herself first, of course she isn't going to worry about who she lays down with, or about protecting herself when she does choose to lay down. How can you love that which is constantly beat down and belittled and uncared for everywhere you turn? You are absolutely correct when you say that this is a complex issue, and complex issues have no pat and easy answers like, turn off the tv and don't play video games.
Yes love is freely given from God, but as ABM and others have stated, you can't just begin loving and valuing yourselves when others are not valuing you, your beauty, your attitudes, your manner of speaking, the way you are built, etc..
It's not enough to espouse love yourselves no matter how you look, because EVERYONE needs affirmation. And living in a society, a world that has NEVER valued black anything, it is hard to look in the mirror and not measure yourself by society's indeed, the world's measuring stick for beauty.
We can't be expected to embrace everyone else and love everyone else until we learn to love each other and on that point I agree with you. Gossiping about one another is useless and destructive, and picking one another apart because one is closer to the euro standard of beauty than the next serves no purpose either.
So in order to achieve this one love that you speak of, we must first celebrate our own uniqueness, our own beautiful differences, create and uplift our own standards of beauty, whether that be fat asses or flat asses, light skin, or dark, fat noses or skinny ones, oval faces or broad, long hair short hair straight, nappy, and everything else. Until we embrace and celebrate us as a whole , there will be no one love. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 347
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 06:20 pm: |
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One of my favorite phrases is "niggas catchin' hell all ovah de worl' dontcha know?"
I heard that somewhere, I don't remember....maybe in a movie, or read it someplace.. |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 08:18 pm: |
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Abm,
I think many people have the skills and resources to indeed change, however, you are correct in that people don't have the will. Obviously, this applies to many areas of life outside this discussion.
While there are obviously no easy answers to some of the thoughts/questions you share, I will again share my opinion. I earnestly believe that what we are required to do in this lifetime is to share as much goodness with others as we possibly can. While I am much too wise to believe I can change every single life on the planet, I do believe there are simple things I/we can do to live better quality lives. Ask yourself this, what are you doing where you live (mentoring programs, community service, selflessly giving of yourself for the better of others)? Do you have good character? Do you share goodness with others? Are you patient? Do you respect others as well as yourself? --simple things like this make the difference. Be the voice of change, the voice of reason right where you are. All humans want basic, basic things --love, joy, peace, health and protection. We (all people) come from an infinite place of light. We, by spirit, recognize light. For this reason, people intuitively gravitate towards light. When you live a life of light by sharing goodness with others you are living by example. In turn, you evoke positive change in those around you. For some it may sound too fuzzy. If you're miserable and think I'm wrong, I say look at your life and the energy you put out. Problem could be you. Just a general thought. Bottom line --live by example. Like Ghandi said (paraphrasing) "Be the change you wish to see in the world" --serious food for thought!
Change is not comfortable, period!
I'm glad you appreciate my commments about feminine beauty. Women are majestic and wonderful creations that should be valued as such! My hope will always remain that our society will continously evolve. Equal and positive respresentation for all people is a must!
A humanist is one whose way of life (doctrine) is centered on human values and interests. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 350
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 08:34 pm: |
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Here we go............. Come to the light.....etc. etc. |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 09:58 pm: |
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A_womon,
I agree and disagree with many of your points.
I believe that all women must study hard and dig deep to discover self-love. I am rooted in my belief that this is an issue that trancends race. Any woman, at any given time, can find numerous reasons to hate her reflection, that is, if she compares herself to unrealistic, unjust, and unwarranted standards of what is and isn't considered to be beautiful. Truth be told, many white women don't fit in that standard either.
I agree that black women need love, joy, peace, health and protection --all very basic, human needs --all women naturally deserve this. I understand fully the many dynamics of sexism and racism. This is indeed a complex issue. However, turning off the tv and the video games are an incredible start to ending vicious cycles. Being mindful instead of mindless is of the upmost importance. I know way too many women, from all walks of life at that, who allow the media to run their homes. Doesn't matter if they are single or married, struggling or financially secure, they seem to not connect the fact that what they watch, what they listen to and what they read influences their attitudes about themselves and those around them. We are a world of consumers, we will consume stuff until the point of death, spiritually and physically. TV, in my opinion, if abused, is just another form of oppression. Again, maybe too fuzzy for some, but again, examine the building blocks for what you consider beautiful and question the reason why. TV, video games, and junk magazines could be the culprit! Also, people must look at how and who they give their money to (especially for entertainment). It reveals alot about an indivdual and their belief system.
I agree with you that we all need affirmation. However, I will also venture to say that self-love begins with ones-self and ends with ones-self. If women waited for outside affirmation we would be emotionally crippled. I know many strong, emotionally healthy women of all races that have faced incredible adversity and overcome --a true testament of self-love that birthed from their own hearts!
Yes, "one love" is a good phrase to describe my personal philosphy, thanks! Yes, black women must celebrate their uniqueness and differences but not at the expense of comparisons. Black women are beautiful just as, not because of what other women aren't. I also believe in celebrating all women's positive, physical attributes, however, I don't believe anymore standards need to be "created" by ANY group of women/men --we have learned from history creating standards always leave somebody out! I'm for inclusion rather than exclusion!
Much respect
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 550
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
Okay. Since you have somewhat called-me-out, at the risk of appearing arrogant, I would assert that my life is rife with examples of how I have lived in ways to support my views on what is needed to improve our communities.
I am a dutiful husband and father to 2 brilliant/beautiful young Black females. I am a dependable and watchful citizen and property owner within my neighborhood and town.
I employ over a dozen Black and Hispanic women and teenagers. I own businesses that promote healthy, holistic approaches to maintaining and enhancing the health and beauty of women of color. I volunteer my scant available time and hard-earned money to an assortment of community/charitable activities/organizations, which promote reading/literacy, music, arts (including visual, poetry, spoken word), community awareness (small local newspapers).
My wife and I frequently read to and with our children. We limit their TV viewing. We have never allowed a Sega, X-Box, etc. into our home. We know the parents/guardians of all of our kids’ friends. And I am almost always the only dad amongst my daughters friends who will volunteer to take them to the movies, mall, library, etc.
But, having said all of that, I think I will ultimately leave it to GOD to be the final judge of how "good" my "character" is. Because I am sure in many ways I am quite mature and evolved in some respects, while in others I still leave much to be desired.
So, again, I am not at a loss for what must be done. I question how we can all be encouraged to bear a real yet manageable share of what is necessary to move us all forward and upward.
I find it interesting that you emphasize females evolving to some heighten state of communal consciousness and appreciation yet you avoid even mentioning the role of males in your enlightened pronunciations. Do you feel that males play a subordinate perhaps even non-existence role in the evolution of the human female?
Lastly, and again pardon my ignorance, I am still unclear about what a "humanist" is. What does "centered on human values and interests" mean? And how would you distinguish being such from being, say a "feminist", "atheist", "misogynist" or "anarchist". Because, and pardon my frankness, this "humanist" appears to be one of those terms that in concept means a lot but in practices don’t really mean much of anything.
A_womon,
Take it easy on Moonsigns. Though she’s a lil’ bit ‘Pollyanna’, considering the ‘cynical’ world in which we live, I think we could benefit from adopting some of her more altruistic perspective. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 873
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 01:47 pm: |
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We have to be careful in promoting this "love yourself" thing that we don't sink into the abyss of self-absorption. Focusing outside of yourself and developing an awareness of those around you can have a magnetic effect. Who can resist an outgoing person who shows a genuine interest in others? A self-conscious person is one who thinks everyone is watching and judging them. Most of the time this is not true. People who don't take themselves too seriously are very often held in high esteem by others because this is actually an admirable trait. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 555
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 02:12 pm: |
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Cynique,
Well said. We humans are social, communal beings. Thus our advancement and evolution as individuals will indeed be largedly the product our interraction with others. And, yes, the more we open ourselves to the world, the more blessing our generous Mother Earth will bestow upon us all.
Although, now that you mention it, I do...oh...every now-n-then enjoy my own special "love yourself" moment. Its is usually when the wife and kids are away, I've had a couple of glasses of Merlot...and Sanaa Lathan or Rosario Dawson is on Cable.
HEHE! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 876
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 02:19 pm: |
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You are never more engaging than when you slip into your sly rogue mode, Abm. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 558
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 02:38 pm: |
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Cynique,
Uh...thanks (I think?).
Whenever you compliment me I can’t feeling like I’m a naive Charlie Brown and you are that devilishly clever Lucy who will enjoy pulling that football from away from my foot just as I am about to kick it. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 605
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 03:18 pm: |
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moonsigns: again, your post is interesting. Yet, again, it seems u miss the mark, for in affirming humanity, u don't seem to embrace the diversity of(within) humanity. Here is it, in my opinion, in a nutshell: If we are to be humanist(whatever that means to you), you must not only love yourself as a human, but you have to embrace your culture and physiology, which is fundamental to the particular experience of you as person and a member of a group. You seem to address the individual, but the individual is constitutive of their community, cultural, religion, etc....one can turn off the television but the problems in lone's life and the world are unescapable. And this can not be confronted alone.
As you state, "Black women are beautiful just as, not because of what other women aren't." But as social beings, as ABM as suggested, need to see these on television, in magazines, churches...among women and among men...women, especially heterosexual women, do need male affirmation...this is not about sexuality but the basic structure of the human family...male affirmation not only shows a woman that she is attractive, but it enables her to have intimate relationships with men, albeit platonic or romantically...they need it from woman, for they need to be intimate with women, romantically or platonically, same with men.... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 879
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
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No, Abm. You are genuinely witty and are at your best when you deflate pomposity with humor. This is also true of Lambd and Chris, which is why I love you niggas. Aaaaargh |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 563
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 04:56 pm: |
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Aight now, Lambd. Yu bettah wake up! Cuz Cynique must be pretty desperate for attention if she’s bestowing compliments upon Yours Truly.
Dude, you’d better hurry back or a playah’s like me is gonna haf tah ‘hollah’ at yo gurl. |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 06:46 pm: |
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Abm,
It sounds as if you do your part in making the world a better place! While God is always the ultimate authority, we have also been given an incredible mind that has the ability to rationalize things which are right and wrong. You know if you're of upstanding character or not. We all fall short at times, however, there is a sweet success in simply striving.
So, you know that you aren't at a loss for what needs to be done. If you have a serious conviction about moving people upward and forward I suggest praying for your answer as to how you need to go about that. If you are of a pure heart with pure intentions you will definitely get an answer. It's divine principle.
I specifically spoke about women in my posts because women sharing in the discussion conveyed their issues with black men and white women dating/being together. Of course this goes both ways. I was addressing women that posted to this topic though.
About men though --men are half the piece of the puzzle. I will jump in the water and tread lightly.......
Men are birthed with an incredible spirit to lead. The masculine principle is one of strength, leadership, protection and provision. I admire and respect this very much. Through the centuries though, by circumstance and by choice, men have abused this very natural (and beautiful), spriitual gift. It in turn, has created a massive void in the lives of the women and children touched by such irresponsiblity. This has become a bastard generation in many ways. Yes, women have and do pick up the pieces, but the vicious cycle that this has started will only rightfully end when men take ownership of their seed (not just physically but in all respects). It is a powerful, powerful concept. I am by no means pointing the finger either. I have a man to respect that also respects me --I love men and specifically my man. We have made the CHOICE for ourselves, as well as our offspring, to not be a part of this cycle. However, it takes humility on both the part of the male and female. Both male and female energies must work together and resepct our God-given abilities and principles. Men, due largely in part to current culture, don't need to commit to have children and be taken care of. The average women nowadays is too willing to open her legs and play house. If we are really concerned about "communities" --well, healthy communities begin with healthy families. Some don't want to drink of this water, but it's truth. The one thing that has drastically changed in the last 30-50 years is the structure of the family --and we are dying for it, spiritually and phsyically. Men, do your part. Women, do your part. I believe there is a voice of reason within every mentally sane person that understands this fundamental principle. There is a heavy price to pay for such carelessness and our society reflects this sad, sad truth.
Abm, all humans need love, peace, joy, health and protection. A humanist is one whose doctrine (way of life) is centered on these values and interests.
Much respect!!!!!!! |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 07:22 pm: |
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Yukio,
Hello! I am by all means, for all people. I am definitely a person who embraces diversity.
You have made several, good points! You are definitely right in that one cannot turn off the tv and escape the reality of life totally. However, I feel confident to say that when your concept of self does not come from images and stereotypes that are biased, destructive and hateful, it will make one stronger to do their part in making the larger community they belong to, better. I don't claim to have all the answers. I strive to do my part and share that with others. I do believe that it makes a change!
Again, you are correct in that women need affirmation, as do males. I don't watch much tv, therefore, I don't look to be affirmed by it --never will either. I would like to see more diversity represented in natural health magazines and the natural health movement in general. I don't know what you mean by churches. The US is chock full of black men and women, usually husband/wife teams, that run churches. When I use the term equal representation I speak specifically about seeing a rainbow of faces equally represented in the arts/sciences, leaders of major corporations, educators and law-makers --things like that, things that make intellectual and spiritual differences. I could give two cents less about seeing that latest black actress, half-naked on late-ngiht tv shaking her groove thang or talking about how sexy she looks in her new film --pointless and unproductive!!!! What I will do is tie my response in to what I was sharing with Abm. When men and women work together to honor their natural principles and live by higher standards, positive affirmation is only natural. One really has to examine (and be brutally honest) about the things that pass through their ears and eyes and into their heart. If you casually watch videos, crazy movies and tv shows and listen to certain types of music, it will indeed effect how you feel about yourself and others --especially if you feel you can't and don't measure up. I can't emphasize that any more. But again, you are right, we all need affirmation.
Much respect! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 359
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 08:01 pm: |
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Hey All,
Here's the thing: America is "chock full" of images everywhere you turn that NO ONE could live up to black, white, or other. Period. These delusional images conjured up by Lord knows who and held up as ideal fail repeatedly when the average woman is placed beside it. Which is why you have so many white women having nose jobs before they reach the age of puberty, why they starve themselves to death, trying to reach this truly unreachable ideal!and on and on ad infinitum! And even those who by archaic standards are close to this ideal must still have their photos airbrushed and retouched to "perfection"
So it is not only the fact that black women are not appreciated for themselves, the same is true for white women, Most of them just fail to realize that they spend their entire life chasing some FALSE image of beauty that without the aid of a scapel, is unattainable even for them!!!
So now all of that aside, I stand by my assertion that we must all take the scales off our eyes and redefine what beauty truly is. And if that means holding up new standards for a time until old ones are cast aside, and finding a new yardstick to determine what true beauty is, then I say so be it!
By the way moonsigns,although I would love to take credit for the phrase "one love" it was not originated by me. I don't exactly know where it began, but many my age have been using it for a while. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 223
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 09:26 pm: |
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Hello all,
While you all made some validate points, there's a few missing. I don't want to lay all of the weight on black women because their not loving themselves. I'm not going to put it all on the "image of beauty" that is constantly shoved down our throats. Sure some of it can be because of these two things, but a lot of it is that many of us black men have issues and are not secure with our own blackness. I thinkmany of us are still trying to get a firm grip on that smoke ring of "I'm just as good as a white man" or still believe that the white man's ice is colder. I know this question has been asked, but you know I can not remember hearing an answer for it, Why is it that when a black man becomes "successful" the value of a black woman goes down while the value of a white woman goes up? And also let's face fact, many of the brothers who are with white women have the mistaken impression that the rest of us should bow down and kiss her a__ just because she choose to be with him. As if! And then, some of these white woman can get very snooty and uppidity around the sistas. I done seen it. So, we're dealing with a lot of issues here that are painful to look at, much less deal with it. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 606
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 08:38 am: |
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Thumper: My comments pertain to men, as well. It is simple, white is alright, and black get/jump back! If whiteness is the standard and you're heterosexual then a white woman is a sign of class and prestige, unfortunately.
Moonsigns: The point of my post was that as social beings we congregate together in spaces that don't include tv and magazines and we're still bombarded w/ images or white euro-american standards of beauty...this is not the product of the television, but has been something that has been ingrained in this country since slavery...television is the most recent technology of white supremacy. Consider beauty products, from the conk of the 50s or we can go back to the twenties and Madame C.J. Walker...we don't have to watch tv, read magazines, etc...to see these images...it is apart of the educational curriculm, the political process even how we identify ourselves...Consider this formula: black people=black people, but white people=people, in other words whites are universally human and black people are a particular kind of human....Consider, that I was shopping with a sista, and in the store, they had shirts about blonds, redheds, and brunettes being the best....now, where would we place black women? They didn't have shirts for locks, perms, relaxers, highlights, extensions are the best.... |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:03 pm: |
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Thumper,
Because black men still date/marry black women in far greater numbers than they do white women and other non-black women, I don't see the value of black women going down when a black man becomes successful. I think numbers prove it to be just the opposite. Sure, there are a few black men who will play that role, however, black men (statistically) still date/marry black women at much, much higher rates. I encounter/know affluent, black couples, as I'm sure we all have, where the girlfriend/wife is "snooty and uppidity" around any other woman, period --as if you should kiss her a__ just because she "made it." Abm mentioned something about the "hysteria" of interracial dating/marriage to be "grossly overblown" --I agree. And when there happens to be those few black men that act ridiculous because they are with a white female, everyone becomes unglued, yet, don't want to address black women who do the same very thing when they are with successful black men. The way I see this situation it is more about the great divide between people that has always been and will always be --the "haves" and the "have nots"
Much respect! |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
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Yukio,
Again, you make some good points that I understand and respect! You know I have my opinion though, too I use the word choice in this because choice is very powerful. If people, in this case people who happen to be black, can embrace this principle (and practice it), then the power to change these circumstances is also present!
I understand your point about the tee-shirts, but let's look on the flip side of this. Look at FUBU, Sean John, Phat Farm and other, numerous, black owned labels --why don't they make shirts like that? They certainly have the money and we have all heard them speak about uplifting the black community. Write these people, email the companies they own --let your voice be heard. If you want to see certain fashions produced from White fashion designers just do the same thing --demand your voice be heard. Don't sit and stew about it, you only hurt yourself! I say, if people can come to this country not speaking our language, buy homes and start/own an incredible business, so can American born people. Yes, I acknowledge the struggle might be harder for blacks in general and I don't know when and if that struggle will ever be gone. However, I am of the mindset that the mind is powerful, as is the will. If you want/desire something with such passion, in America you can surely get it!
Much respect! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 360
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:41 pm: |
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time out... don't say it....just don't say it awomon you can do it......
....If I hold my peace and let the Lord fight my battles........
1..2..21/2...3.... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 566
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 12:45 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
You make some very eloquent points about how men and women can build healthy, productive families and communities. How do you reconcile your seemly traditional views with the (often quite 'strident') elements within our current socio-political environment that would have us all believe that men and women are, absent differences in gonads, essentially the same and should be viewed/treated as thusly?
I am happy for you that you are able to eschew much of the more "unproductive" elements of the American zeitgeist. Though I wonder how removed from the popular culture one can be before she materially limit her ability to enjoy some truly worthy and mutually beneficial opportunities. For example, there is A LOT of CRAP on the Internet. People are hocking lies, propaganda, porn, breast/penile enhancement devices, credit card schemes, phony business opportunities, etc. So one might conclude it is better to avoid using the web altogether. But of course, by doing that, one would also deny oneself a myriad opportunities to learn, read, communicate and meet with a near infinite assortment of people, places, things and concepts.
So perhaps it is not whether one enjoys playing "Grand Theft Auto", dancing to hip-hop music or perusing the latest Hollywood scuttlebutt that is the issue but rather whether one can partake of such activities in a self-controlled and moderate manner.
Yukio,
Interesting. Your views above would appear to differ from what you have (often ardently) asserted in months prior. In the past, you argued that males and females behavior is primarily the product of socialization. But here you appear to suggest there are indeed more natural differences between Adam and Eve.
Is your perspective on sexual/gender issues evolving a bit? Or have I misinterpreted your prior/current positions? I am, of course, sure it is the latter.
A_womon,
You are right. White women are as besotted by all the beauty imagery and demands as Black women. Still, this issue is more acutely problematic for Black women because the threshold of achieving certain elements of the 'Westernize' beauty criteria are often much lower for them than they are for Black women.
Simply put: It is easier for an anorexic White girl than it is for a shapely young Black girl to look like Julia Roberts .
That is perhaps why Black women spend an alleged 4X (per a recent Revlon study) the amount of money of beauty-related products than do White women. So while it is true that all women are struggle with the concept of beauty, the sistahs are made to spend more time/money pursuing something that they have the least hopes of obtaining.
Thumper,
Certainly what you exclaim may to minor degree be part of the problem. But this ubiquitous notion of hordes of Black men preferring to lust after, date and marry White women is often based less on comprehensive fact and more on biased anecdote. I agree wholeheartedly with Moonsigns here. Because while I concede some of what you cite may be more of a authentic phenomenon in the Military, on the West Coast and certain other more 'liberal' sectors of the country; all other statistics assert that brothers typically chose to mate with sisters (even those brothers who are 'on the down low'...hehe!).
Moreover, this fixation among Black women to achieve some variant of Caucasian beauty begins long before they begin to concern themselves with what males think about them. For example, I am sure you've read about studies have asserted that lil' Black girls often prefer White/Light complexion dolls to darker ones. Young Black boys are not causing Black girls to feel that way. Our young sisters and daughters are so bombarded by the glorification of White skin, straight, blond hair, blue eyes, etc, I personally feel compelled to constantly remind my young daughters that they are in their own way as pretty as the (very White) Hillary Duffs of the worlds.
Everyone,
The issue of beauty is really just a microcosm or a symptom of the much larger and graver issue of our having for centuries been incapable of charting our own course as a people. And to further the point that Moonsigns appear to make concerning Black entrepreneurship and economic independence (in her last post), I would argue that until Black people can effectively feed, clothe, shelter, transport, educate, protect, entertain and love each other in a manner that is at least moderately independent of others, we will ALWAYS be subject to the standards/criteria imposed by others irrespective of how ardently we try to ignore/avoid such. And that includes for us what is (and isn't)...'beautiful'. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 361
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 01:19 pm: |
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Come on abm, more money?
we aint the ones spending thousands on breast(and more recently ass)implants, nose jobs, lip surgery for bigger lips, treatment for anorexia, botox to get rid of sun induced wrinkles,and on and on and on.....
i did'nt prefer to play with white dolls, and neither did my friends, my mother father aunt and uncles, grandma, were smart enough to buy me dolls that looked like me.... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 568
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
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A_womon,
I think you are referring to a small stratum of affluent White women who are doing those things (and BTW, affluent Black women are increasing partaking of those 'enhancements' as well). Overall, Black women spend much more on consumable beauty-related items than do Whites/others.
Why do you think virtually all of the Black-owned Beauty companies have been bought out by Whites over the last 10 - 15 years given that Blacks constituted only 13% of the US population? It is because American Blacks spend much more proportionately for such items.
I am happy that you were able to avoid the White-is-right doll propaganda. |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 02:15 pm: |
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Abm,
How do I reconcile such "traditional values" to the current HYPE of women's lib (that's how I read it)? I don't feel I have anything to reconcile. Let me explain.
All women deserve their God-given rights. The right to be respected, have a voice, to not be abused, to be educated, to work, to choose who she wants to marry and IF she wants children, to love, to be loved and be protected! Men deserve this as well. This is what I consider gender equality. However, I don't know how any sane person can deny that there are differences/energies/principles in us (that God ordained) that are mutually benefically if they are nurtured and respected accordingly. I, as a woman, find NO liberation in playing house with a man who won't committ to me. I'll be dam*ed if I'm going to cook, clean, have a "babies daddy/daddies" and support a man who won't do the same (and be proud to publicly acknowledge that). I find NO liberation in willingly opening my legs to a man who has the potential to leave my children fatherless. I find NO liberation in having sex with a man who would tell me to kill the child in my womb that HE created. I find NO liberation in pretending I can do it all because I know I can't. I find NO liberation in calling this mess CHOICE and then crying foul when I reap what I've sown. Liberation for women does not mean we negate our feminine principles. Society has showed us that very few women know how to differentiate between equality/liberation and self-exploitation. If this was true emancipation for women, men wouldn't be in jail at such high rates, women wouldn't be left with bastard children and women wouldn't be dying from AIDS at such a high rate. Again, powerful concepts, but truth!
Abm, all things are good if used for good. Mentally healthy people understand what is good and bad. I watch some tv, use the internet for intellectual purposes and enjoy my life. All things are interconnected. How broad the gray areas are in people's lives is their choice. Everything is cause and effect --and we do have choice in many things we do.
Much respect!
p.s. I'm glad you tell your girls they are pretty! They will always remember that and they will grow up to be healthy, strong and empowered in their feminine prinicple --blessings to you, your wife and your children! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 570
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 03:22 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
Again, you make points that I would largely concur with. Of course we all deserve to be respected, to be heard and to free to live safe and comfortably in (what is suppose to be) free society. And certainly one's sex/gender should not preempt such rights.
I think, however, whether another couple might have difficulty observing your views if one spouse is better equipment to manage tasks that are traditionally bore by those of the opposite sex.
For instance, can a man feel like 'a man' if his earnings are less than half those of his spouse. And will said spouse allow him to "feel like 'a man' "? Such problems and dilemmas involving issues of gender/sex roles cause real, often irreconcilable, fissures in many Black relationships. The severity of this condition grows as Black women have begun to economically outpace Black men.
And because, as you have said, men currently appear much less capable of or inclined to observe the conventions that you proudly require, many young women (rightly/wrongly) have eschewed even expecting such of them. Therefore, even when men as you describe strolls along, the women are ill-prepared to receive them. Or worse, they mistakenly or willfully misuse them. The men then out of revenge/pain/mistrust, misuse the other good women that comes along, thus begetting a pernicious cycle of the emotionally abused becoming abuser, etc. et al.
So I'll say yet again, how well we are able to provide for ourselves and/or materially dictate what is to be provide for/to us, will determine how effectively we can nurse our myriad wounds and build healthy, productive and happy Black families and communities.
Thank you for the fond wishes for my family. I wish the same to you and yours. My daughters (and of course their mother) are bright and pretty young ladies. Recently, I told them that if they continue to do right, and they are profoundly blessed, perhaps one day they will grow to be as brilliant and beautiful as their father.
Those chicks laughed so hard I thought I would have to give them both CPR. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 608
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 04:15 pm: |
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moonsigns: I do believe in activism--reread my first post to u--but I won't go as far as to assert that what u want in american can be achieved...
ABM: No, I still believe male and female differences are primarily the result of socialization. And, I also believe our physiology contributes to these differences, but this pertains to childrearing and physical strength (though one can argue that men don't have the strength to give birth but thats another story).
My point here is the fact that people have taken this socialization as fact, as truth, and thats how they understand themselves as humans of a particular sex....consequently, to treat a woman differently than how they have been socialized as a sexual group for centuries(human family structures/religion) and then culturally as an ethnic group and then individually in a family unit is to mistreat her...My point to moonsigns is that images of ourselves is everywhere...in the church, grocery store, within our own family, etc...unavoidable. Finally, I appreciate how perhaps 96% of humans understand sexual roles, though i believe. Most people don't spend time thinkin about these issues...they accept things as they seem, not the long process of how thing become.....
This is also, how I feel about religion....all religions have their own creation story and folk know that religion spreads by exploitation and then conversion...yet, centuries after their initial conversion they rarely question the validity of their colonizing religion...what make this one more viable and truthful than the other? It is faith...but the kind that often denies the reality of another faith....just talkin, here and I hope I have not offended anyone...
I do believe in "God" but not in a religion, btw. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 894
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 04:40 pm: |
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Your comments on religion, didn't offend me, Yukio. I totally agree. Amen. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 573
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 04:55 pm: |
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Yukio,
Hmmmm?
So, in referring to your following comments...
"...women, especially heterosexual women, do need male affirmation...male affirmation not only shows a woman that she is attractive, but it enables her to have intimate relationships with men, albeit platonic or romantically...they need it from woman, for they need to be intimate with women, romantically or platonically, same with men....",
...should I assume that these desires are based primarily upon 'socialization' or upon some natural, perhaps even biological need.
I am neither a psychologist nor a sociologist. But I would assert that those feelings/needs are as innate as they are learned.
I recall reading a Black female scientist (I think she was a psychologist) hypothesize part of the reason why many Black girls often get pregnant at such young ages, often even pre-teenage, is that, because there fathers are not at home, there reproductive systems mature more rapidly than those of their peers who live with their fathers. Females who are parented by their blood sire begin their menses more gradually because the fathers emit a hormone that moderate their maturation process.
I think it was argued that since the females are still within the presence (dominion, protection) of their fathers, there was less of an immediate biological need for them to be able to procreate then it would be were they fatherless and thus they more hurriedly required the ability to mate and reproduce.
Are you aware of such a study/exposition, Yukio? Reading it might help give you a little more insight on just how formative biology is in who and what we become. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 609
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 05:54 pm: |
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abm: yes, my quote pertains to socialization. Socialization over centuries, at that...you quote misses that I was making the point that this is intrinsic to the human family. Reread the section.
No, I have not read the study. I don't doubt how "formative" biology is, I just believe that socialization is as "formative." The point is that nothing is really "natural," if something biogical happens it occurs has a response to social phenomena...consider the phenotypes of socalled racial groups....if folk didn't migrate from Africa centures ago then everyone would have been different complexions of what some of us call "black." We now know that socalled racial features are mainly the result of biological changes in response to enviromental changes...we know that there is only one race of many, many cultures...just because its biological doesn't make it natural, for is the history wasn't what it is, then something else would have occurred, how "natural" is that? |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 224
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 06:33 pm: |
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Hello All,
Moonsign and ABM: I'm sorry but it seems that you two have misread my post. My post was strictly talking about the white woman-black man thang, which I thought was the topic for this thread. I did not say, or even imply that the majority of black men still love and marry black women that's not the track my train was rolling on. I call myself being very specific. So, I'm not understanding where all the PC stuff is coming from.
While I hear what you two are saying, I'll try to keep it in mind when pictures of our pro athletes and their wives are shown in the society column. I apologize but I'm not falling for constantly telling black women that "believe in yourself" and "you really are beautiful--keep saying it in the mirror 50 times a day and then one day you'll start believing it" stuff. The problem is deeper than what Oprah can cover in a one hour segment and frankly most of it fall on the black men shoulders. When we have Tiger Woods saying that he's a...well, whatever it was he said, that let me know baby boy got a serious problem (notice I didn't bring up what color his wife is...see I'm being good. *smile*) Now, he was raised by a black man, wasn't he? *eyebrow raised* So...if its just as easy to love a rich man as it is a poor one, I am assuming the same hold true for the "successful" black man (notice the quotes, I'm using them for a reason, work with me here) concerning black women and white women. But for some they're not seeing it that way. I'm coming flat out and saying it that their motivation is not NOT love. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 366
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 07:01 pm: |
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Thumper,
If redefining standards of beauty and countering the constant bombardment of European standards of beauty with beautiful images and standards of our own is not the solution, then what would you suggest would help the next generation in forming healthy attitudes about themselves OUTSIDE and in????? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 610
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 07:32 pm: |
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hmmm...if black men told black women that they were beautiful then they would feel so...this begins at a young age...from the father, or male figure(assuming she is heterosexual). At this point, many black men and women have a preference for their "own" but will date a person from another cultural/racial group...the problem, as thumper suggests, is when it is motivated by jungle fever and self-hate! |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 226
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 09:09 pm: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: I never thought I would say this but, Eureka, you got it. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying. You said it much better than I did.
A_womon: You tell them don't believe the HYPE! You tell them, look a here-if you think your lips are too big, why are white women getting their lips poof-ed up, paying big money to have a needle inserted in their thin lips in order to make their lips look like yours. If somebody tells you that your butt is too big, why is it that white women are getting ass implants so that their butts can look like yours. Never underestimate the power of the booty! If somebody tell you that your skin is too black, why are white folks COOKING themselves in the sun every chance they get. And when it comes to hair--no matter if you fry and dye it, leave it natural, or cut it all off you can cause you can carry it off and they can't. Now why in the world would you wreck your body, your self esteem, your mental health to look like women who is doing their damndest TO LOOK LIKE YOU!? That's what you tell them. To me, there is nothing more beautiful than black women. I can watch and listen to yawl all day long and still come away fascinated. Why any black man, hell any man period, would find yawl anything BUT beautiful is frankly a damn fool. So why would you subject yourselves, beat yourselves up, torture yourselves physically, mentally and emotionally over some fools is beyond me. So stop the madness. Look at yourself and know that you're good, its all good, and go on about your business. It's not that deep. Now that's my Iylana Van Zandt lesson for the day and you didn't have to pay $25 to read it or hear it. *smile* |
Sisg
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 80
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 09:45 pm: |
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Beautiful Thumper, that was just so damn beautiful! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 367
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 09:47 pm: |
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Thump,
Well all is can say is I'M SMILING!!!!!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 368
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 09:49 pm: |
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Hi Sisg! I miss you!!! How ya doin??? |
Sisg
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 81
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 10:07 pm: |
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Girl, i'm fine! I'm back! Couldn't stay away, you know, i've been around, lurking, reading, laughing, yall like my family. I luv ya! Glad to be back and in the mix. What else can I say, life hands you lemons, make lemonade! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 369
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 11:01 pm: |
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Hahahahaha!! SO True!! Glad you're back!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 896
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 29, 2004 - 11:56 pm: |
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Hi Sisgal! Glad you returned to the fold! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 897
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 12:35 am: |
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This is a subject that is so complicated it's hard to come up with pat answers. For one thing, all black women do not look alike. They come in all shapes, all sizes, all shades, all hair texture. So it ain't about looking like this or being that color. All slim light-skinned women with long hair are not getting the men, and neither are all brown-skin women with thick bodies and hair extensions. Or, are all heavy-set dark-skinned women with short hair being rejected by men. So it's not altogether about appearances and standards. It's about something else, something so subtle it's indefinable. Maybe if we could reach back into our roots and reclaim the soulfulness that is the essence of being black, brothas and sistas would come back together. Life is the question. Love is the answer. Maybe.
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 227
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 04:55 am: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: YES, I think you got it! Maybe we have, or are, losing our roots. Maybe we have lost our soul, or that indefinable element that made black folks special, made us--us. I don't know. It's been on my mind lately due to my reading Tell The Court I Love My Wife. Maybe integration is a true double edge sword. Could it be that this, losing ourselves, was the price we had to pay for integration? And was integration worth it? |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 10
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 09:43 am: |
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Abm
Of course a man can feel like "the man" if he earns half of what his spouse earns. If a couple is respectful and grounded there is no real issue. However, most aren't equipped to handle this. There always seems to be some undercurrent of resentment. It is natural for a man to be a provider (make the money) and natural for a woman to nuture (home with the children). It just is. I don't need a study to prove it either.
Now, I believe it can be done --that a couple can really examine their indivdual strengths and find a lifestyle that works for them. It doesn't make me think of couples who choose this as being less of a man or a woman. If they choose unconvential ways of raising their family that is totally their business.
Yes, many men haven't taken their rightful position. The same goes for women. When "right" people come along it often doesn't work out for the reasons you mentioned. I have strong opinions about this, however, will....keep silent--yea, keep silent
Yukio
I respect your point of view. I think it is extremely valid for an indivdual to examine the reasoning for their belief system. I agree with you on this concept regarding faith as well. I don't find that offensive at all. We all must come to our personal conclusions. I think it is better to do that earlier in life than later though. If one spends a majority of their adult life questioning the 'hows' and the 'whys' life seems to make them bitter --it just passes them by (just my personal observation). Good points though!
Thumper
You are correct in that black women are beautiful! I think it makes women feel great to read that, however, I won't tell my daughter/(s) that they are beautiful because white women are trying to look like them. Self-love and appreciation for one's beauty is not birthed for another's lack of. This is what white America has done to black women --forever. I think that is the root of the problem and I won't turn around and feed the same garbage to my children. I think it is a continuation of a vicious cycle that perpetuates an "us against them" mentality --something I don't like. This is where I peacefully disagree with you.
Now, about white women and black men. I do think it's "grossly overblown". I accept that it is your opinion that these "pro-athletes" aren't with their white love interests for love, but how do you really know that? How can you justly say they have "jungle fever" or are "self-hating" (as in the case of Tiger Woods)? Who can justly and accurately determine their motivation? I don't deny that there are people like this, however, interracial dating is not an epidemic. I'm more concerned with incarceration rates, AIDS and fatherless children --there are "bigger fish to fry". There are many black, white, asian, and latina/latino who form relationships for ill reasons. There are far, far more same-race couples that are twisted that contribute to the greater dysfunction of this society. Why does this small population of people get so much energy?--to me, it's energy that could be better spent. Again, I must say that I peacefully disagree with you.
Much respect!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 898
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 12:17 pm: |
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Thanks, Thumper, for being able to get an inkling of what I was trying to convey. After I posted my comments, I wondered if what I wrote made any sense. As for integration, I think the quest for it did whitewash black people to some degree. It was always about showing white people that blacks could be just like them. And, in trying to prove this, we sacrificed a part of our uniqueness. It was whites who probably benefited more from integration, because they perceived a certain aura about blacks that they admired and wanted to emulate. What was it? Coolness. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 584
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 01:57 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
Please don’t stop now. Consider how generous your conversation has been thus far, I can hardly wait to read what you have to say that would make you feel inclined to preface such with a "I have strong opinions about this, however, will....keep silent--yea, keep silent"
I do, however, I find your response to Thumper to be interesting. Do you choose NOT to tell your children they are beautiful at all? Or is it you choose not to do so simply as a counteraction to more negative circumstance/influences around them?
Either way, upon that, I think we may disagree. I DO believe that in the world we live in where are OUR children are incessantly pummeled via a myriad assaults to their will and self-confidence, it is important that we attempt to provide them with as much of a mental buffer as is possible. Thus, I use words/deeds help reinforce in my children a sense of themselves. And face it: For females, personal appearance can (to varying degrees) be a vital part of that formula of promoting good mental/emotional health.
That certainly does not mean that women should view the totality of who/what they are via what is reflected back to them in a full-length mirror. Still, you can NOT ‘rationalize’ or ‘educate’ away something that is so very basic to what being a living human being is all about. A female’s sense of her beauty is as important as anything else in life. And that should be respected and honored.
Moreover, I don’t think that Whites dictate ALL of what we think of beauty. Believe me, Black men and White men often have VERY DIFFERENT views about what is/isn’t ‘foine’. Thus, I don’t think we should discard the notion of the concept of beauty simply because Whites have often perpetuated biased, perverted notions of such.
I think that the issue is often about degree, moderation and variety. AI have no problem with glorifying White women in of itself. I just would rather not see it EVERYWHERE I go. But, again, the only way I can see that changing is if/when Blacks and other people of color can wrestle away or create equally potent versions of their own media. And, to some degree, this is already occurring in hip-hop, though often in what many of us would consider a particularly decorous manner. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 585
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 02:14 pm: |
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Thumper/Cynique,
The Monday Morning Quarterbacking on the relative benefits or demerit of integration makes for interesting copy. But they aren’t really worth engaging. Because some degree of Integration was not only necessary. It was not inevitable.
Because the only way that America could be truly a free nation - one that provides authentic opportunities for all of its people, whatever their gender/sex, creed or religion - was if people could be allowed to come, go, live, eat and breathe wherever they choose. And, of course, Blacks who were previously denied such opportunities would naturally gravitate to where opportunities were much more plentiful, where in most cases White people were.
Thus, the issue now is not whether now Integration helped or hurt us more but rather whether we can now begin to consider whether if we are indeed a mutually interdependent body of people, how that should manifest itself amongst our people, the outer world at large and within our own selves.
I think those of use who where born post-WW II should be careful not to over-romanticize what Black people could have achieved sans integration. Because I wager if most of us had to actually LIVE during those bygone eras, we might be much less inclined to wax on rhapsodically on what might have been. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 611
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 02:50 pm: |
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hmmm....losing ourselves...desegregation has changed alot of things, but it has not changed black men's desire to date white women...this is as old as the "word." It it really simple. When people see themselves as belonging to a community and when others step out of the community it makes it a reflection of those left behind...this is the logic, at least. Now, of course, there are a trillion of reasons why this happens, some good and some bad.
Also, yall seem to have a romantic picture of the segregation. Much of these difference that you now see were always there from jump, but masked by jim--jim crow that it...now hat he seems gone, folk are able to see what was always there...soulless black people, conversative black people, self-hating black people, desirous of whiteness black people, individualist black people, etc.... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 906
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 02:55 pm: |
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Nobody is saying that equal opportunities should've been passed up, Abm. But it was misguided to have substituted integration for inter-racial. Ideally speaking, the races could've co-existed in the same environment without blacks folks being led to believe that they had to adopt the white persona that ended up diluting their black identity. But, yes, this is hindsight, and America is not Utopia. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 907
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 03:02 pm: |
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You are right, Yukio. We blacks do tend to romanticize our past. So instead of trying to ponder this current dilemma further, I throw in the towel. Things will never get better. Let's hope they don't get too much worse. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 587
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 03:19 pm: |
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Thumper,
If you are sincerely looking to entertainers and jocks to rock your Black is Beautiful mantra, I would say there in lies your error. How a regular Black man treats his woman will have a intensely more indelible affect on who his son choose as his mate than will some measly-brained actor or basketball player (who, frankly, might not even be able to discern his @$$hole from a hole in the ground).
But I share your adoration of Black feminine beauty.
And I am sorry if I mistakenly interpreted or overstated your prior argument. But, when I was child, often, I was so moved by the beauty of Black women, I was deftly afraid to even speak to you all. And although I have long since transcended those fears, I still maintain a (almost giddy) reverence for Black women (I think that’s why I often tease.). So, honestly all of this talk about Black men lusting after White women profoundly puzzles me. I can’t for the life of me imagine how any Black man (or any other man for that matter) can enjoy a wholesale preference for anything other than a Black woman.
Because, honestly, any brother who can’t or won’t appreciate a Black woman deserves our pity more than he does our antipathy, for he surely is in dire need of heart and brain transplants.
BTW: Thumper you should know by now that I am everything BUT politically correct. My ‘down-@$$-chick’ Cynique can back me up on that.
Thumper/Cynique,
I appreciate the way your recent comments about Black beauty nicely complement each other’s. And I agree the sweet, physical beauty of sisters is buoyed further via their warm and comforting hearts and eternally vigilant spirits. Thus, no form of medical or cosmetic wizardry, however clever, can match your unique assortment of blessings.
Cynique,
Do not despair, my darling. Remember "HELP IS ON THE WAAAAY!!!" |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 612
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
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cynique: don't be so cynical...i never said things haven't gotten better, only that we have lots of problems, and that now that the elephant as slightly moved to the side, we can see others...
On another note, at the end of the day, we are just folk...and this means that an increase in inter-racial was inevitable...interestingly, I wonder if folk will identify their themselves by their culture or "color." It doesn't seem strange that this country may have many phenotypically white children from phenotypically black parents...or light skinned folk, but their culture will be african american and politics....interesting, no?
look at Obama...biracial kenyan brother married to an african american sista...met at harvard....consider adam clayton powell sr. and of course ACP Jr....there will be more of these folk in the future...that people will be identified by both color and culture...also, throughout many of the inner cities, the african population is increasing and they are beginning to have a continental identity rather than ethnic/religious...so what will be their political position?...will they intermarry w/african americans(Obama)...will we reject them as "foreigners," will they introduce another form of black politics, will they be used against us? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 908
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 03:40 pm: |
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I know you didn't say we haven't gotten better, Yukio. I said it and I am not being cynical, I'm being realistic. |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 11
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 03:47 pm: |
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Abm
Strong opinions create strong defenses! I never say never, however, my intuition tells me to avoid that for now. I honor my intuition. I don't want the men thinking I'm a "B' and the women desiring to scratch my eyes out! Conversation here has been enlightening and I'm enjoying it! Blame it on my moonsign
I have already walked through many different seasons with my children, especially regarding beauty/self-love. Of course they will struggle. But the more a mother/father can make their children understand that they are no exception ( simply because they are black) to self-discovery/self-conflict regarding their looks, I think the healthier they will become. While I am extremely optimistic by nature I'm also fully aware of the forces of the world. Sure there have been challenges. Sure I've seen them struggle with certain things. On the flip side I have also seen trememdous growth in appreicating themselves and their beauty. As a parent, especially a woman, it gives me peace and pride to watch this evolution. While I have the humility to say I don't know what the future holds I feel confident to say they are being led down the right path. I pray for the best, as ANY parent does!
I agree with you that whites do not dictate all of what blacks think of beauty. You are also very, very right about what black men and white men consider to be 'fione'. That is why black men are vital in the emotional development of black women/young black girls.
About integration --of course it was necessary! We are all to share this world. I remember watching a documentary years ago about one of the Popes delivering a speech to his native people in Poland. Basically, Poland had become "westernized" and he was blasting them for in that process they had lost (collectively) their sense of morality, sense of right and wrong, as well as their sense of self. I use this analogy because you look at those who fought for civil rights, they didn't fight so people would lose their morality and sense of self. They did so to only make the community blossom and grow --to give birth to the endless possiblities of the black mind, soul and body. It's kind of like the women's lib thing as well. It is only natural to want equality but the high standards must be maintained after emancipation. Integration didn't happen so blacks would fall away from the standards that the movement was based on. Recently, I went to to visit where my partner grew up. I was devastated to see the poverty and destruction around me. We share the same sentiment that people, regardless of where they live, still have the right to choose how they live in that particular community. There are shining examples of people who move beyond their circumstances because they made a choice. It proves that the human spirit can triumph if willing. There comes a time when there is no one left to blame.
As always, much respect! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 613
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 04:07 pm: |
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moonsigns: you seem to make the same point cosby does w/o the fire...thats anotha thread, so let me stop here. |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 12
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 04:41 pm: |
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Yukio
The average American, regardless of race, suffers from what I call deferred responsiblity. Irresposniblity for personal behavior/conduct runs rampant. Stats prove it. We have all the reports we need. You're right though, that's another thread.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 614
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 05:01 pm: |
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i'm a researcher, I don't believe in stats... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 588
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 05:35 pm: |
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Moonsigns,
Very well. Considering how you are letting everything else ‘flow’ only makes what you abstain from saying even more alluring. But I will respect your desire to keep some things to yourself. After all, part of the lure of being a woman is that you keep some things...secret.
Your saying that Black men are vitally important to the self-image of Black women reminded me of a couple of related anecdotes.
A few years a ago, my wife and sister-in-law got into a major argument all because I had complement her sister appearance. It was for me a perfectly innocent gesture. But my thought her sister was a wee bit too turned on by my comments.
And recently, an employee of mine commented me on how I enjoy kidding with my daughters, which initially didn’t mean much to me until she spoke wistfully about how she wish her husband would treat their children similarly.
So, yes, the thoughts/comments of men are vitally important to the women who love them. Unfortunately, because so few brother are raised by the fathers, they often miss witnessing that delightfully affirmative interplay between husband and wife and father and daughter.
That is, alas, just one of a myriad negative consequences of fatherless within the Black communities.
Yukio,
Hmmmm? Don't MANY, if not MOST, stats derive from work performed by a "researcher"? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 615
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 30, 2004 - 08:08 pm: |
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yes, abm...and wouldn't a researcher know the limitations of stats? Some believe them...others don't, I'm the latter. different kinds of research tell u different things...whether its qualitative or quantitative...at the end of the day, it is about the questions you ask and the variables used to explain certain phenomena...anyways, this is only my opinion,...also, i believe in the power of knowledge, especially as a tool of oppression and conversion...u must know that u will have two researchers doing the same research, but will have different conclusions, usually based on ideology or limitations in the methods, etc.... at the end of the day, it is whether you believe in the numbers, if they have that power, and it they can really measure and explain social phenomena...put it this way, it is like trying to measure an emotion, impossible...Its like ya woman askin u how much u love them...u answer, but know that words are really insufficient to express the heart, at least thats my opinion. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 590
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 12:11 am: |
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Yukio,
I am not trying to start any trouble. I just find it a little odd that a researcher would disregard the merits of statistics considering that stats are often the key prerequisites, ingredients and products of most meaningful research and scientific discovery.
Of course EVERYTHING has it limits. But a scientist must be able to some degree rely upon the conclusions drawn by her or his predecessors. Otherwise, he or she would have to reproduce or re-perform virtually every major/minor stage of his/her experimentations, which would be impossible to do for more complex/intricate projects.
And even you yourself could diligently perform what you feel is very accurate and thorough research...and still draw some very fallacious conclusions.
Heck! I read just recently the renowned astrophysicist Stephen Hawking has reconsidered his decades-old theories about cosmic Black Holes. Now, I understand, much of the scientific community is aghast over Hawkings revisions.
Hey. Get over it, geeks! Things changes.
But I agree with part of the essence of what you appear to argue: 'Science' is only as good as the 'scientist'.
Below are 2 sites that include info that partly support what I mentioned earlier about how fatherlessness can biologically help accelerate premature pregnancy within Black communities:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_2655_128/ai_58037917
http://www.fact.on.ca/news/news0007/ts000714.htm .
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Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 13
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 12:38 am: |
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Yukio
With all due respect to your profession, I am convinced that the incarceration rate, AIDS, and fatherless/single parent home numbers/percentages are an accurate reflection of what is really going on. It may be sad but it is truth. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 372
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:04 am: |
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Most studies are conducted on selected or controlled groups, therefore the findings are typically only reflective of that particular snapshot of time, for the particular control/select group. Therefore the findings of any study are only as good as the set of controls used for that particular study and must be subjected to particular formulas to be deemed worthy of being "acurate" as applied by a particular researcher(s) Sometimes that control group can be as small as 50 people or less!
Sooo, I would agree with Yukio, I would not take all studies as the gospel for all time.... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 591
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:51 am: |
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Yukio/A_womon,
Of course, what you say is true. One should reserve their "gospel" for their respective deity.
But I must firmly side with Moonsigns here.
Consider this: The method by way you and I are now interacting, the Internet, is a product of a myriad of "studies" from countless "controlled groups" (all of which are inspired by what is commonly called the Scientific Method). If mankind couldn't at least to some degree rely upon such methodology, in all likelihood; you, myself, Yukio and MANY the others who visit this site might never have enjoyed the good favor of meeting. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 616
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 02:49 am: |
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moonsign: your comments now are specific(aids, fatherless, single parents, etc), but your original comment about personal responsibility and stats were not but generic...so what ever respect u have or don't has no bearing on me...it may be sad but it is truth.
Abm: don't misunderstand me. Let me restate it: I believe in research, but I understand its limitations, and I can see poor research from a mile away. Unfortunately, people see a ph.d and some stats and they think they heard the WORD...Also, technology is different...it is mostly measurable. Human phenomena is more difficult.
For example, stats incarceration is only the begining, really just a sampling...give out a few questionaires...use databases to determine how many prisons are in a particular prison or region, etc...findout their percentage of the population...that is the easy part, but these stats really don't tell us anything...the question is when u try to use the stats to explain something to find out what it all means...so that when we hear cosby talk about stats...what does it all mean? Does his reasoning explain the stats or is it something else...will learning standard english, buying $50 pair of sneakers instead of $85 or having one child instead of five get a class of poor folk out of poverty...there are stats that say this, but it seems incomplete(These studies often add that racism doesn't exist since caribbean and africans prosper proving that african americans are just really lazy. ..Thomas Sowell/Ethnic America..for a contrasting view see Winston James, “Explaining Afro-Caribbean Social Mobility in the United States: Beyond the Sowell Thesis” in Comparative Studies in Society & History. vol. 44, no. 2, April 2002). I believe those things would improve folks chances, but I don't believe it will get folk out of poverty, because their are other factors...structural problems that work in tandem with "personal responsibility." Now, I'm making a point about stats and their explanatory merit...not cosby, et al...actually, if one is interested in seeing someone breakdown someone's research, read James article. So again, I believe in research but its limited in explanatory capabilities and the researcher oft in rigor... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 593
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 03:15 am: |
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Yukio,
So I think I better grasp your position: It is not the "stats" per se that you take exception to, but rather conclusions drawn from them - especially engendered from the social sciences - which are often specious, erroneous and fallacious.
If that accurately describes your view, then you and I agree. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 375
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 03:34 am: |
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Here is the the thing: Stats can be faulty as well, and as was stated earlier, just because a person has a phd behind his name and the statistical finding get published somewhere, some folks think that the study is accurate on its face and do not bother to look to see if others have done studies on the same subject and how/if the findings of others differ from what the person has read.
Look, stats can be skewed based on a particular researchers bias toward the people or ideas, or whatever the study is about and that researcher, though many assume that a researcher is unbiased, this may not always be the case, that researcher may only be about proving his mindset about a particular issue. So I would not be so quick to quote from one researcher as fact, but merely as what it is: interesting research, until/if I could find that others have done similar studies using different controls and drawn similar conclusions over a period of time. Because the truth, you see, is the truth no matter which way you approach it, so it (the truth) and the statistical data should stand up to different controls. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 594
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 04:43 am: |
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A_womon,
I agree with what you say. However, can you describe for me ONE scenario of human life that is NOT worthy of the suspicion that you apparently have for "stats" (other than the utter certainty of corporeal death)?
Frankly, you should harbor similar concerns about your bank's management of your money, your accountant's tax advice, your attorney's legal counsel and your doctor's medical diagnosis.
Scientists, like the rest of us, must play some odds and percentages. There's no way that one, two, a thousand or even a million experiments can represent the infinite possibilities of the cosmos. And, yes, every experiment is subject to the limits/faults of its researchers.
Thus, even the concept of 'Gravity' itself is a 'theory' that has not been irrefutably proven.
If you have questions/concerns about results of one credible study, you should review a more credible one, and then another...and maybe, still, another. And after that, if you still have doubts, you should perform (or at least help sponsor) your own research and have other wise, trustworthy person(s) review the results of your work.
But at some point, after all such discernment, one must draw some reasonable conclusions and act upon them. Otherwise, discovery, development and progress is pre-empted, and we all lose.
But I agree wholeheartedly that NO ONE, no matter her title/position is above healthy, wary skepticism. |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 14
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:36 am: |
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Yukio
When I wrote that I felt irresponsiblity "runs rampant" and we have the stats to prove it, you wrote back saying you're a "researcher" and you "don't believe in stats" --generic response, right? I see fatherless children, AIDS, and incarceration rates to be a direct reflection of personal irresponsiblity. I thought that was rather...self-explanatory at the best. I have the humility to admit I don't know much about the accuracy of numbers outside stats/reports about "personal resposniblity" issues. That is why I said I respect your profession, not because I thought it had any "bearing" on you personally --breathe Overall, you know much more about stats/research than I do. After reading your post to Abm I totally understand where you are coming from.
Much respect! |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 15
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:40 am: |
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btw, have a good weekend everyone --relax and enjoy!
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 617
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 10:12 am: |
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right. it is not stats in and of itself, but how they are manufactured and as u say the conclusion drawn from them...
moonsign: gotcha...u have weekend, too! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 618
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:14 pm: |
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oops! I forgot the "good" part, moonsigns. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 915
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:23 pm: |
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Just an interesting little side-bar here. Margaret Mead, a legendary pioneer in the field of anthropology was lauded and revered for the research she did in writing a study that was considered the definitive work of its kind, a book entitled: "The Coming of Age in Samoa." In her treatise, Mead went into great detail, explaining and drawing conclusions from what these "primitive" natives told her about their courtship rituals and other aspects of their culture. Well, as fate would have it, many years later after the island of Samoa was re-visited by other sociologists, the natives confessed that half of what they told Mead was just made up. They told her what they thought she wanted to hear and snickered about it behind her back. These primitive natives had made the civilized researcher look like a fool. Now, I don't totally discount studies or statistics but as everyone has noted, almost anything can be proved by extrapolating statistics, so I always bear that in mind when assessing their conclusions. Still, a lot of studies have proved to be invaluable. For instance: Kenneth Clarke, a well-known black psychologist, drew very telling conclusions when he did a study with black and whites dolls, show ing that little black girls rejected the black dolls and preferred to play with the white ones. This was back in the 50s and this study, purportedly showing how segregation damaged the self-esteem of black children, was cited when NAACP lawyers launched their campaign to desegregate schools. (The Brown case.)
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 378
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:30 pm: |
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I was wondering about that white doll thing when abm brought it up, but I remember when my mother spoke of growing up in the fifties, there were very few black dolls, and the popular dolls were ALWAYS WHITE mostly blond and blue eyed. So how could any study be accurate in the face of such bold inequality??? I say that it has less to do with preference and more to do with conditioning!!!
I say that study should be revisited today. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 917
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
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You didn't need to have a lot of black dolls around to draw the conclusion that when given a choice, black children preferred to play with dolls that didn't look like themselves because they didn't think that black was beautiful. Of course 50 years later this has changed and certainly wouldn't apply today. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 381
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 02:11 pm: |
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Yes Cynique, but I still say that their choice of the white doll over the black was the result of nothing more than conditioning not preference,there is a difference. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 919
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 02:19 pm: |
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That's what the study was trying to show:that black kids were conditioned to think that white was better than black and that this damaged their self-esteem. Conditioning is the first step in shaping a preference. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 382
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 02:33 pm: |
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Okay so we agree on the kids being conditioned But I don't agree that conditioning is preference's first step. Conditioning speaks of control, preference speaks of freely choosing.Conditioning a lot of times leaves out freedom of choice. Does that make sense? See I see conditioning in a scenario like this:
Monday- white dolls
Tuesday same
wednesday same
thursday same
Friday same
Saturday same
Sunday same
Monday black dolls and white dolls
What will the child most likely reach for? No real choice over time equals conditioning.
But now if you have
Monday- black dolls white dolls
Tuesday Same
wednes same
thurs same
fri same
sat same
sunday same
monday white doll black doll
the child reaches for black doll or white doll
now you have a basis for preference. See? ability to choose from a variety of options over time equals preference. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 922
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 02:48 pm: |
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By whatever method they were brainwashed, the point, a-womon, is that 50 years ago Blacks, -particularly southern blacks, had a different mind-set about their race than they do today. It took a civil rights movement for them to feel the need to teach their children that a colored doll with wooly hair was just as beautiful as a white Shirley Temple doll with blue eyes and bouncing blond curls. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 608
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 03:54 pm: |
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A_womon,
How do you distinguish preference from conditioning? It seems to me, both will often correlate, interrelate and/or engenders each other.
I disagree that preference is born from "freely choosing". Because the preference can very likely be framed/wrought via a larger conditioning processes.
For instance, many men like thin women. Now we might assume that is primarily a preference born from free choice when it may in fact it be the product of a certain culture that intends to enforce a certain standard of beauty. For example, consider that during the European Renaissance, the bigger, fleshier, Rubinesque figure was consider the feminine ideal.
So do men enjoy a natural "preference" for thinner women? Or are our views the result of centuries of propagandistic "conditioning"? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 385
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 04:40 pm: |
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and many men like fat 250lb and up women I don't think that black men typically have a natural preference for thin women, the very idea of "thin" is better is typically a white point of view so are you speaking of white men?
okay, it may be true that some preferences are enfluenced by many differnt factors, but I still stand by my examples above and maintain that more times than not, conditioning gives you no real choice, while preference intrinsically entails being exposed to many different options and choosing from among them what your likes (preferences) are....... |
Moonsigns
Newbie Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 19
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 05:23 pm: |
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I agree with Abm on this. I strongly feel that conditioning and preference are somehow interconnected.
This also has me thinking --when a man says he "prefers" a certain type of woman racially (or for any other reason), is that conditioning or is it truly preference? If they aren't interconnected many a men are justified (as are women) --it's simply what they like.
Anyone: your thoughts?
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 386
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 05:56 pm: |
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I have already stated that conditioning can INFLUENCE preference, but that they are DEFINITELY NOT interconnected. In other words, either can stand on its own. For example a person can dislike one type of food and like(prefer) another, some can love mini skirts and others hate them, some people love rock and roll and others prefer r&b and rap or even classical. Some prefer to study hard and make good grades no matter if they are raised in a family that has placed no importance on education, and the reverse of this is true as well. And I say that it has nothing to do with conditioning and everything to do with preference.
To say that preference is interconnected with conditioning is the same as saying we are all mindless robots who are unable to form or develop our own ideas and solutions about situations which is what conditioning sets out to prove.
Now having said that, I do believe that the media at large as well as others do attempt to condition us everyday and use many methods to influence us to behave in a certain way and to influence our preferences. Does it always work? Hell no. But I will give you that it can SOMETIMES. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 927
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 06:20 pm: |
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Well, let's do take the area of food. We are conditioned to eat a certain type of food which is why people in America don't prefer to eat dog meat. In fact when food companies tried to introduce green catsup it was a flop because people preferred the red catsup they had been conditioned to like. The same thing happened when a clear-colored Pepsi was introduced and failed. People preferred the brown cola because they have been conditioned to like that color. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 387
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 06:32 pm: |
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....oh and let's take school, people prefer to go to medical school because they are conditioned to believe that doctor's make more money, and lets take getting sick people go to doctors cause they are conditioned to believe that doctors can cure their ills, and lets take eyeglasses people go out and buy them because they are conditioned to believe that wearing them can correct their vision??? hahahahahahahaha!!!
Cynique, you have proved nothing, as I said before preference CAN sometimes be influenced by conditioning so what?? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 388
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 06:45 pm: |
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and yeah cynique you are right about us not preferring to eat dog meat, but in some cultures dog meat and rat meat are considered delicacies...preference or conditioning? who's to say? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 610
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 07:11 pm: |
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A_womon,
I think you are being unnecessarily absolute in your arguments.
First, I don't recall arguing which is preferable, "preference" or "conditioning". And I certainly am not saying that all of what we enjoy is based solely upon what others compel us to.
The influences of "preference" and "conditioning" can exist independently. Saying that 2 things are interconnected does not mean they cannot also be separate. Still, it is not easy to separate/reconcile whether and to what degree our influences are innate, environmental or both in an American society where we are CONSTANTLY being mentally/physically accosted by a myriad assortment of stimuli.
For example, does a beautiful young Black woman have a "preference" for wearing miniskirts? Or has she been "conditioned" to wear them because she enjoys the lustful gawking she receives from males when she dresses in that manner? It could be either or both. Perhaps the "conditioning" of the adoration she receives buoys her "preference" (interconnected?).
In my prior post, I was referring primarily to White men. I would agree with you that many Black men view beauty differently from White men. Now, I know you would say that White men seem to have more of a natural preference for then women than Black men. But if you consider the beauty standards of 50's, you would observe White women like Hollywood stars Marilyn Monroe, Jayne Mansfield and Jane Russell were every bit as buxom and shapely as what many (if not most) Brothers of today would consider 'foine". (Heck! Russell had the kind of T&A that would make even Vivica A. Fox feel self-conscious.)
Then stick-figure chicks like actress Audrey Hepburn and model Twiggy came along, and suddenly that which was considered beautiful was changed. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 389
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 07:38 pm: |
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Abm,
How many times to I have to say that preference Can Be Influenced by Conditioning Sometimes? We all agree on that.
Where we part ways is when the 2 are linked together as inseparable, I don't agree with that. Period. I have given you examples to back this up.
But here is one more, you try to feed your baby some carrots, he won't eat them because he doesn't like them. This can be borne out time and again, certain babies prefer certain foods, now they have not been conditioned because they haven't been around long enough to be exposed to learned behaviors, or conditioning by outside or inside(parental) influences. certain foods they just decide they don't like--preference!
The mini skirt thing can certainly go either way. Me, I wear them cause I think they are cute!!And if young men happen to think I look cute in a cute mini, well that's just a bonus!! That doesn't mean that when I'm out buying it that I think, oh a man is going to think I look good in this. No, I look and say I think this looks good on me so I'm getting it!! Now does that mean that other women aren't buying mini's for the sake of what men may do? No it does not!
Some women may like feminine men, or men with a little sugar, I prefer my men as straight as six oclock!! And I don't prefer to have sex with women. Now have I been conditioned to like my men straight and be a strictly dickly type female, or is it a matter of preference that is as innate and inborn as a baby preferring broccoli over carrots? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 928
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 08:00 pm: |
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A_womon, if preference can be influenced by conditioning, then the opposite is true, so what is the point of your ambiguous argument, except to engage in splitting hairs???
(And, yes, people in Asian countries do eat dog meat because they have not been conditioned to reject it.) |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 390
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 08:03 pm: |
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Why am I the one splitting hairs? Maybe it's you who are splitting the hairs cause I happen to have a different point of view than yours. You're the one that's being rigid in your views, so you can call it what you like. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 611
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 08:07 pm: |
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A_womon,
HAHA!
Pardon me. I don't know whether you intended for me to respond this way, but for some reason I can't help stop laughing at your last post.
You minded me of my many futile attempts to spoon feed my then infant daughters.
HAHA! HAHA! HAHA!
But seriously. Your last post suggest that we not disagree as much as it may have previously appeared.
PS: It was hell feeding my oldest daughtered carrots. Sister gurl was so finicky, we feared we'd have to feed her via IV. But my baby girl LOVED carrots. She used to consume that stuff like crack. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 391
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 08:19 pm: |
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hahahahaha!! abm, I don't have kids, but some of my friends do and I have babysat for them, Hilarious! Sometimes they decide they don't want eat something they have previously adored, don't they?
and thank you! I only felt a slight division in our views from the gate, so I'm glad that you have come to that conclusion as well!
Peace!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 929
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 08:24 pm: |
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I never introduced the concept of preference and conditioning into this discussion, a_womon. You did in a effort to prove a point. But the point you were attempting to disprove, wasn't the point I was trying to make. I'm not being rigid; I'm flelxible because I think these 2 concepts are very fluid in their application.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 392
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 08:37 pm: |
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Okay Cyn,
Youre right I did introduce preference into the mix when we were talking about black girls choosing white dolls over black ones to play with cause they thought the white dolls were better.
Now I had a problem with this finding because at the time of the study, white dolls were basically all that were available to little girls to play with. I guess that back in the day, who ever was in control of the toy business either didn't care or didn't know how damaging it could be for little girls not to see themselves reflected in the toys they played with. But this could be true of a lot of things that were in effect back in the day... White Jesus, white god, white superheroes saving the world, white bread, you know and on and on.. But I digress.
Anyway, the point I was making is that perhaps the study would have had a quite different conclusion drawn if little girls had had other choices in the type of dolls that they played with. In essence the study was not an unbiased one and I felt that it had more to do with conditioning vs preference. That's all.
You know you still my gurl and I aint gonna argue with you about this no mo'! So as yall like to say round here:
Can we agree to disagree?
But anyway |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 930
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 08:51 pm: |
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We still cool, girlfriend. And I have a feeling that someplace, somewhere Yukio is sittin back laughing about the maze we strayed into and could hardly find our way out of. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 393
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 08:58 pm: |
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Yiah baybee!! Yew Knoooooooooow!! Hahahaaha! He is probably lurking somewhere taking a break from his studies and crackin up!!! Probably wanting to come in and help us out as he so graciously does....
He'd probably start out with
"At the end of the day........." |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 619
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 31, 2004 - 09:54 pm: |
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interesting...it seems u guys were arguing about word choice...to influence can be interpreted as being interconnected, and to be interconnected does not mean they're inseparable...depends on the circumstance... |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 116
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 08:11 pm: |
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I printed this thread out (51 pages) and I've been reading it during my commute for the past two days and I'm still not finished. There are some classic posts on this thread.
Not having read the entire thread I did want to chime in and say: we all have out own standards of beauty of course there are cultural and genetic influences however it does exist.
Not everyone is equally beautiful. If everyone were equally beautiful we'd all be the same people.
I got the impression that Moonsigns was really talking about the inner beauty and ABM was talk about the skin deep kind.
Admitedly there is nothing that makes a good looking woman ugly than a shitty personality and a great personality goes a long way toward making an unattractive person look fine (sure few beers have the same effect, but that is besides the point).
The important this is that the inner beauty is what really counts particularly over the long haul. Some of the stuff Bleek and Moon and others said would go a long way to helping improve that inner beauty.
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Moonsigns
Regular Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 42
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 09:01 am: |
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Troy:
"Not everyone is equally beautiful."
I take it that you are speaking of the physical, if so, I agree.
Troy:
"Admitedly there is nothing that makes a good looking woman ugly than a shitty personality and a great personality goes a long way toward making an unattractive person look fine."
So true!
Much respect! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 827
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 10:09 pm: |
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UNH HUNH! |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 263
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 11:02 pm: |
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Don't A_Women Don't.......cool down now .
I feel though, I sure do.....UNH HUNH! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 330
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 05:48 pm: |
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Hahaahhhaaaaa!
Simmer down is right. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 954
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 06:01 pm: |
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go fluck yaself, moonsigns. |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 335
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 08:08 pm: |
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No need to lick crumbs when I can feast on filet mignon.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 955
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 08:36 pm: |
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well go lick yaself then, it's all dogmeat! Knock ya azz out bytch! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 338
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 08:45 pm: |
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Don't you wish |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 958
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 09:07 pm: |
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Don't I know!
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 959
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 09:10 pm: |
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And now, stupid, everyone knows, as I ALWAYS did, that you hang on my EVERY word!!! Now don't read THAT! ahahahahahahhaahaha! FAKE! |
Moonsigns
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Moonsigns
Post Number: 342
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 09:23 pm: |
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You're pure comedy, thanks!
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 960
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 09:47 pm: |
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Happy to oblige when you're always the joke...anytime. HAH! |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 332
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 10:53 pm: |
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324!!!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 964
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 11:00 pm: |
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no tone!! no tone!! |
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