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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 303
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 11:07 am: | 
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Bill Cosby: America's granddad gets ornery.
world.
By Debra Dickerson
Posted Tuesday, July 13, 2004, at 11:22 AM PT
Lately, Bill Cosby has been making a comeback—as Shelby Steele. The 67-year-old comedian—who became America's Dad in the 1980s and America's Granddad more recently—has launched a series of surprising assaults on the pathologies of low-income blacks. "They think they're hip. They can't read; they can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere," he said in Chicago at the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition and Citizenship Education Fund's annual conference on July 1.
This followed an attack launched at the NAACP's Brown v. Board of Education 50th anniversary gala at Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C., in May. No laugh tracks there. The Cos has chastised young black men for "beating up your women because you can't find a job," blasted poor parenting in the ghettoes, heaped scorn on Ebonics, and lambasted aimless blacks for squandering the hard-won gains of the civil rights movement. Symbolically, he made his comments in high-profile "public" (read: where whites could hear) venues.
Many critics expressed shock that the beloved figure of Americana—the genial observational humorist; the wise paterfamilias of the beloved The Cosby Show (1984-1992); the winner of the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2002—should offer such a pointed, and conservative, political message. Yet those who were fooled by Cosby's silliness into surprise at his newfound ferocity were just that—fooled. Cosby has long been a good "race" man on an all-too-serious mission. There was always darkness in the Cos' light.
From humble beginnings in the projects of Philadelphia, raised by a domestic and a laborer, Cosby parlayed his impish nature and keen insights into the transcendent in daily life into a successful comedy career during the early 1960s heyday of stand-up. In 1963, he was chosen as the first black guest host of The Tonight Show and in 1965 as the first black star on a white drama. On I Spy, he and Robert Culp played intelligence agents gone undercover as an international tennis player and coach. Overnight Cosby became the "Jackie Robinson of television," a crucial figure in bringing unapologetic but unconfrontational blackness into the mainstream.
It is almost impossible now to convey the watershed I Spy represented in American life. Those were the days when blacks called each other in wonderment to make sure that no one missed seeing one of their own in America's public square. That Cosby's "Scotty" was an abstemious, multilingual Rhodes Scholar and devoted family man while Culp's "Kelly" was a womanizing boozehound from the wrong side of the tracks was no accident. Cosby himself lobbied to make Scotty the brains of the outfit, the one who traveled the world and tended to national security matters.
Nonradical elements of the black community always embraced strategic racial inroads like this as exactly the type of gains they were trying to make—securing a place at the table instead of dismantling the table. Radicals like the Black Panthers, socialists, and Amiri Baraka, of course, considered Cosby a sell-out—a judgment for which his recent comments merely provide them the final proof.
Once Cosby found the upward path, he worked hard to stay there and to help bring the race along with him. His philosophy was always to play by the rules so as to beat the master at his own game—to be clearly black-identified, but not, you know, militant about it. Like that of Nat King Cole, Flip Wilson, and Diahann Carroll, television's other black pioneers, Cosby's appeal lay in presenting the universality of black life "apolitically," on its own terms (or, if you're Amiri Baraka, in the least discomforting way possible for whites). Their sudden presence in public life was all the rebuke that pre-Civil Rights Act America could face.
But Cosby's critics are wrong to say Cosby is either "incognegro" or an appeaser. The man always had a plan. While his humor is nonconfrontational, his attitude has been anything but; like Oprah Winfrey and Magic Johnson's inner-city focused business empire, Cosby sees the acquisition of power as a civil rights strategy. He's worked to be in the meetings where decisions are made rather than outside picketing them, though he was an ardent supporter of the civil rights movement and used his shows to pay homage to it.
And he succeeded. Once his star took off, Cosby was rarely without either a sitcom, a game show, an animated series, best selling non-fiction, or a comedy album riding the top of the charts. His power allowed him, among many other good deeds, to support black higher education by donating millions to schools, sending deserving, hardscrabble youngsters he'd read about in the newspaper to college, and challenging universities to ambitious fundraising goals by offering generous matching funds of his own—facts he's been advertising in a PR counteroffensive after the harsh reaction his recent comments provoked.
So why now? Why is Bill Cosby suddenly so sour, so publicly? Perhaps it was watching one of his four daughters struggle with a drug habit in the 1980s. Perhaps it was losing his only son, Ennis, to random violence in 1997. (Ghouls click here for a guide to the murder site.) Perhaps it was having to acknowledge having cheated on his wife of 40 years, Camille, who is nearly as beloved by blacks as he is. To make matters worse, the news of this infidelity broke when a young woman tried to extort hush money from him, and he helped the FBI send his (probable) love child to prison. But perhaps the final straw was watching Eddie Murphy reprise his history-making I Spy role on the big screen in 2002, not as a jet-setting, high-minded patriot but as a jive-talking, barely literate boxer who couldn't care less about national security; Cosby has long been vocal in his disgust with what he sees as the minstrelsy, vulgarity, and low artistic value of modern black comedy, film, and television. Don't even get him started on rap music.
"I'm a tired man," he said recently, but he wasn't talking about the energy required to defend himself. He was talking about still fighting battles his generation thought would have been long won by now, and he's talking about how draining it is to watch black complacency with its pockets of stagnation. But true acolytes will recognize the Cos' own personal progression through the stages of life, territory he just about owns. One of Cosby's standards bits was in ribbing his mother for coddling her grandchildren after having been so tough on her children. "That's not the same woman that raised me," he'd claim in mock confusion. Watching our beloved Cos take his people so publicly to the woodshed, it's our turn now to marvel at the evolution of the man we thought we knew so well.
Debra Dickerson is the author of The End of Blackness and An American Story.
Illustration by Charlie Powell
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 208
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 12:38 pm: |
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Hello All,
Ok, now which lie did Cosby tell? His statements are valid. I think the reason some black folks were upset with what he said is because he spoke the truth. How many threads have we discussed this very thing concerning books? How many of us have come to defend the "hip hop" books knowing that most of them are crap? It's freedom of expression, it's this, it's that, any ol argument you all can dig up to justify their existence and their books being published and selling.
I don't believe that Cosby is seeing the whole picture though. The black folks Cosby is criticizing is only the result of the problem. It's his generation and those who survived the civil rights movements that are to blame. It's their generation that lived by the motto that "I won't send my kids through the same hardship that I went through". Well, it's that hardship that made them who they are. You can't have anything grow in all sunshine with no rain. "...into each life a little rain must fall"--I think we call it character building.
Also, I don't know where Cosby has been but there has always been trifling black folks. What's different now? While I agree with what he said, I think he's failing to see that for some, what he said had always been the case. It's easy to comment about people when you're looking down from your perceived ivory tower, quite another when you're living among them, which he doesn't. But I wouldn't let that take away from the validity of what he said, I'm just saying that its not new.
Mainly I think the anger directed at Cosby is basically a shooting the messenger. After all with all of his popularity, his millions, his TV shows, and all that, at the end of the day he still has a dead child and one on drugs JUST LIKE the single welfare mothers living in the projects and all of the other folks who can't read, can't write and wallowing with glee in their own ignorance. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 304
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 02:43 pm: |
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Actually, Thumper, this article is less about any of the much debated statements that cosby made in may or the ones that followed in july and more about the fact that the writer labeled him "a good race man" And then goes on to list the attributes that make him such.
Am I the only one who has a problem with the constant labeling that goes on in the AA community? I have never heard of anyone from another (read white) community being labeled a good race man. Is Mel Gibson a good race man? How about
Newt Gingrich? etc etc.
But since you brought it up about hip hop/street. (I don't know why you chose to interject that into this thread), however on another thread Yukio asked posters what makes a book literary and very few of your regular posters could answer that question correctly. So I am inclined to believe that all of the flak about hip hop/street writers has less to do with wanting true literary books written and read, and more to do with outrage, jealousy, snobbery, or whatever else drives those to constantly lump all hip hop/street writers and books in one pile and slap the "It's all crap" label on them. Especially in light of the fact that most who are making all the noise about it being crap have yet to force themselves to read an entire novel as they have had to force themselves Im sure, to read some of the literary junk that's out there. Oh yes, some of the books that you all have touted as literary are crap too!!
And if someone were smart, (as ABM pointed out on another thread regarding rap/hip hop)they would stack up some of the millions/maybe billions one day that these white publishing companies are making off of these crappy books and put that money back into the commuties! Maybe if the righteously indignant would think less about their literary snobbery, and more about the money that's being made by the big houses, they could do something to make some not all SOME of these writers improve their skills.As Ive said before, many street/hip hop writers are already good story tellers. As well as use the money to try to make a positive change in our communities. Being able to write so called literary works is nothing more than writing about the human condition in such a way that the reader can walk away with a new internal or social awareness of said condition,that they may have otherwise never thought about.
You don't necessarily have to be all "deep" and use big words to acheive this.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 815
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 03:24 pm: |
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You need to preface your remarks by saying "in my opinion," a-womon, because a lot of what you say is an expression of how you personally feel about this subject, and as such can be challenged. But I not by me because I tired of beating a dead horse. In my opinion, hip-hop is hip-hop, and literature is literature, and never the twain shall meet. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 209
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 04:12 pm: |
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Hello All,
A_womon: I'm not going to debate the literary merits of hip hop lit with you in this thread. I used it as an example of one of the things that fit Cosby's criticism. It all boils down to folks representing mediocrisy as excellence. And there are sections of our people that has made this into an art form. Pick a subject: music, art, education, employment, I don't care which one, a case can be successfully made that the underachiever is going to come out on top. And when he does, there's all these built in politicially correct excuses that will attempt to justify it. We have grandmothers paying child support because their grown a__ sons don't have a job and ain't looking for one. We have people who don't even bother to sit outside anymore and watch their children play. Why? But when something happens to their children, watch out! "I only turned my head for a second", when she knows good and damn well she was in the house for hours running her mouth on the telephone. Why is it that we have women collecting food stamps, living in section 8 housing, yet will spend $100 or so on getting their hair done into a 5 foot high Cindy Lou Who do. When did it become more a social standards for us for people to get a GED instead of a high school diploma?
The other point I was trying to make is that Cosby is wrong in the fact that these problems are not just the younger generation. These same problems have always existed, our books says that. These problems are not just the low-income class problems, they're the rich, and upper middle class problems as well. No one is exempt. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 306
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 04:33 pm: |
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Cynique,
Why do I need to preface anything with in my opinion when it's already imperitive in what I write unless I cite someone else? I don't see you prefacing all of your posts in this manner. And Im not so sure that hip-hop/street and literary will never meet just because it may not have happened yet.
Thumper,
Yes I see your point, but do you see mine? The thread was not started to become a discussion on hip hop vs literary, it was more to reinforce statements about the state of America refusing to deal with problems of race where more than a century later, sucessful AA's are STILL being labeled "good negroes" and "bad negroes" based on the actions of one person. It sounds like someone is giving Cosby a pat on the head when they call him "a good race man" What the hell does that mean?
That is why we have the subtle and sometimes even not-so- subtle rolling back the clock on many of the social gains that AA's acheived in the 50's and 60's, because we continue to be destracted by unimportant issues that at the end of the day won't really matter and neglect to look at really important social issues that directly impact our communities. We should pay attention to clues that those in power keep dropping,on how we as a community continue to be viewed by them. Think about the reasons why in 5 years Congress will be deciding if AA's may continue to vote. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 817
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 07:09 pm: |
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You're right, a-womon, you don't need to preface your remarks with the phrase I suggested since this is a forum for opinions. And with that issue out of the way, I can now breathe easier about the possibility of hip-hop and literature one day meeting, - since this is only your opinion. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 210
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 07:46 pm: |
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Hello All,
A_womon: Yes, America is still refusing to deal with the issue of race, but its not just the white population that has a problem with it, the African American community does as well. Dickerson was making the point that Cosby had always been a good "race" man. He served as a positive image of the black community, from his humble beginnings to his meteoric success on TV. She was stating that to show that he wasn't ANTI-black or the Lord forbid a black republican, so there's no need for him to be receiving all the hate being directed at him.
But I say, any black person, Cosby included, who is still hung up on the notion that they have to do this or that to show that not all of "us" are that way, white folks is weighing too heavy on their minds. For instance, why do you care if white folks are still labeling us as "good negroes" or "bad negroes" based on the action of one or twenty-three of us? Just because the Constitution say that we are equal, doesn't mean that we are, at least not in spirit. It doesn't show a rolling back the clock on our social gains or our mental mindset. It shows, if anything, a stagnation in OUR social evolution. Why, because white folks are still telling us what to do, what not to do, what to think and what not to think. And the killer part of the situation is, no matter what you do, how good you are, how rich you become, no matter the number of college degrees you have, or if you don't have a grade school education and can't read the word "it", you will still be a nigga to them. Whether they say it to your face or simply clutch their purses when you stand in line next to 'em, it doesn't matter. As I see it, you're, not white folks, not American, but you are faced with two options: either you can let white folks opinions dictate your movements or you can go for what you know.
Now, this younger generation that Cosby has targeted is probably the truly first generation of AA who don't really care what white folks think of them, be it positive or negative. This attitude would throw off the usual NAACP type AA, because there is no desire to prove to white people that AA are just as good as white folks. The is no "Positive" image to create and or maintain. This younger generation wouldn't give three shakes of a rats tail. To the upper middle class, rich, or middle class wannabe, this attitude is the younger generation spitting in their collective faces.
Whose to say, maybe this is the stage we all should be at. |
Jmho
Veteran Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 66
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 08:35 pm: |
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A_womon said:
Oh yes, some of the books that you all have touted as literary are crap too!!
I can't resist, and though you said this isn't what the thread is about, but what literary books do you deem to be crap? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 308
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 08:38 pm: |
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It's not that I "care that white folks are labeling us" I care that we as a community then wear those labels around! And some even consider it the right thing to do cause white folks have said it! For example, how many years did we use the phrase "black on black" crime when describing crimes that are committed in our neighborhoods,
when it is a known fact that ALL people commit crimes where they live!! But you NEVER heard Mexican on Mexican crime or White on White crime, not even when you are speaking on the subject of serial killers which the vast majority are whites killing whites: now if that aint white on white crime I don't know what is. But they never get labeled. I have long since said that we should stop allowing whites to set the standard of what is acceptable in our communities and then some of those of us in the community raise that standard as a flag and parade it around!!
Now having said that, white people still have the power in this country and that's a fact. And how can you say the clocks are not being rolled back, when you have affirmative action being struck down. Now you even have some AA's who argue that there is nothing wrong with this. But how else are you going to ensure that AA and other people of color get an equal opportunity to obtain good jobs,when you STILL have corporate types using codes to shut us out??? Isn't this one example of rolling back the clock?
And you still have not addressed the fact that congress will vote on whether or not AA's will be allowed to vote in 2007. Can anyone tell me why this is being allowed????? What can we no, what ARE we as a community going to do about this? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 309
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 08:44 pm: |
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JHMO, Lets see, two that come to mind are Black Boy, by Richard Wright, and I Know Why The Caged Bird Sings By Maya Angelou. I believe that these are two that have been called literary on this site and I hated both of them.
Although, I did enjoy reading Richard Wright's Native Son.
Now JHMO you have been one to dismiss hip hop/street fiction. So now tell me, which of these type novels have YOU read? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 310
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 08:53 pm: |
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Also JHMO, what do you consider that makes a book literary?
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Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 106
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:14 am: |
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Hang in there A_Womon, you're holdin' your own!
I see the big Thump has even jumped in on this one. Yeah, you must be coming on up, they startin' to respond to you and not send you back down stairs to the little kids table  . Stay in there, keep your left up, and your head. You're in the fight, you may be behind in points but you're still in the game.
Carey |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 107
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:17 am: |
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btw, who shook jmho out of hiding .
Jmho, where you been hangin' out?
I thought you had put us down for something much more. I'm glad to see you're still doing well. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 211
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 06:06 am: |
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Hello All,
A_womon: you wrote, "I care that we as a community then wear those labels around!"
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but, honey, you is caught up in what white folks think of us. Why should you care about these labels that we are still "wearing around"? Wearing them around for the benefit of who? Certainly not us? Who invent these labels? Who uses these labels? White folks, and AA who go out of their way to prove that they are just as good as white folks.
I can't rightly say that I was ever fond of affirmative action. I don't like it when white folks do it for each other. Common sense will tell you that any employer that wants the best will hire the best of what there is to offer. Anyone who does the opposite is a fool. In some cases the government did these companies a huge favor by making them hire qualified black folks when they ordinarily wouldn't have. Let's come into the 21st century for a moment and take off our rose color glasses, because we have allowed the bar to be lowered so much that the question of whether a candidate is qualified or not, has to come into play. We no longer live in the days where a black qualified applicant had to work twice as hard, know twice as much, as their white counterparts. Reagan may have had his trickling down theory, but we have our watering down theory. We let each other get by with so much substandard stuff that its ridiculous. And its the kind of social disease that has permeated our community from one end to another, touching every single subject. This is the point Cosby was trying to make. So ain't no need in getting mad about the fact that someone is telling the truth. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 311
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:11 am: |
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Thump our views diverge quite a bit on the effect of those in power giving us labels, and those in our community wearing them like a banner. It's like this, if we are in a gang fight and people in the opposite gang have more people, better weapons, and are calling me out and saying that I am nothing, or a coward, im not good enough, all during the battle, and then my own gang members who are already getting beat, because they have less power, began agreeing with the rival gang about me and begin calling me names and beating me up, well some of my gang members will have my back and defend me and pretty soon my gang is beating up on each other and soon the more powerful gang steps in and beats us to a pulp, because we were already outnumbered and out weaponed to begin with and then we turned on each other. What my gang in effect did was help the rivals kick our asses. SEE?
This is what accepting names or labels and wearing them around can do over time. And if you see my saying that we should always REJECT negative labels and not pick them up and sing them loudly (or softly even) throughout our communities or wear them around as caring what "white folks think" then Thumper I guess you just have to think it, cause you're not understanding my point of view.
Thumper, you still have not addressed the right to vote issue.
Carey,
What do you mean I am behind in points? And why would anyone on this board regard me as a "little kid"? Because I am not in my 40's as most are who visit here, with the exception of Yukio and Justwrite? Or because I happen to like hip hop/street novels? (By the way Thump, I sure wish you would allow justwrite to come back early, I miss her.) |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 411
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:03 pm: |
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Thumper:
Thank you! If Cosby had made his comments and said, "I know I have not been perfect. My own daugher had drug problems. My own son was shot prowling around in the street at 2 am even though we had given him anything. I was cheating on my wife all the time (with a white woman, Cynique!)I was posing as Mr. Dad. Actresses on my show have filed complaints for sexual harassment."
I have to say, "Bill, I don't like the way you said it or where you said it but I FEELS ya, homie."
The way he has carried on, my reaction is, "Who the hell does he think HE is?" And then Jessie, of all people, sitting up there the second time--man! Are those negroes crazy?
Re: Mr. Cos--we have created a monster! Somebody should have pulled his "Party at the Playboy Mansion" coattails a long time ago! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 820
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:29 pm: |
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How can you agree with Thumper who said about Bill Cosby that "there ain't no need of getting mad because someone is tellin the truth," and then turn around and say what you say, Chris? (Talk about flip-flopping.)
As far as Cosby is concerned, you seem to have a case of hating the message because you don't like the messenger. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 413
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 01:33 pm: |
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Cynique:
Did you read what Thumper said, starting at his second paragraph?
Cos has feet of clay! Deal with it! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 823
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 02:10 pm: |
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Who said Cos didn't have feet of clay? Not I. Frankly, I don't care about his personal life. I repeat: You hate the messenger, so you are in denial about the merits of his message. Your problem. Not mine. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 414
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 02:42 pm: |
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Cynique:
I don't hate Cos. I pity him.
I wonder how it is you can note that his son was killed while going to see a white woman while overlooking that his own Fatherhood image was deep sixed because of a 20 year relationship he had (while married, that may have resulted in an OOW birth--did he comment on that, or was that conveniently left out when he talked about poor folks?) with same?
And did not our Savior say, that one should worry about the beam in one own's eye before one worries about the mote in his brothers?
That's all. Just wondering. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 824
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:12 pm: |
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Jeeze. Give me a break. I'm not judging anybody. I'll leave the judging to Camille Cosby. And I hardly think Bill Cosby warrants your pity.(BTW, my lusting after a certain white male movie star makes me empathize with Ennis and Bill.) Amen. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 417
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:16 pm: |
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Cynique:
**SMEEUURPPPP!!***(Big wet sloppy one!) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 494
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:23 pm: |
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Cynique,
Why is it okay for you to agree with Bill Cosby judging an entire class of Black people, yet you (conveniently) leave it to Camille Cosby to judge Bill's indiscretions? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 495
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:30 pm: |
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I agree that to some degree we are "shooting the messenger". Though I could add that this "messenger" (and many who support what he asserts) has himself to some degree engaged in and/or helped to perpetuate his sordid 'message'.
Black middle and upper-middle class lag behind their white/Asian counterparts in virtually all socio-economic criteria as well. They vote less than their non-Black counterparts. 70% of ALL of African American kids are being bred in single-family homes versus <50% for non-AA's. Average Blacks SAT Scores lag behind non-AA's by +200 points. Blacks who have the same income as Whites typically hold only a fraction of their net worth.
So many of these are not problems of just those of "lower class" AA's. We are ALL lagging behind. And until we view these problems thusly we ALL will continue to struggle. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 420
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:54 pm: |
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Abm:
Gimme some skin! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 827
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 04:35 pm: |
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Cuz, Abm, Camille is Bill's wife, and Ennis' mother and it ain't my call. Furthermore, when you donate millions of dollars to black colleges and charities, then maybe you can tell folks to not "do as I do, but do as I say do." Especially if what I say do, expresses my desire to uplift the race. I ain't no big Bill Cosby fan but I gotta go with him on this one. Sorry, guys, that's where I stand on the issue.
Viggo, call me. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 498
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 04:53 pm: |
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Cynique,
Cosby's credentials as a stout advocate of the advancement of Black people are not as issue here. I think even his harshest critics would in fairness have to recognize he has made a myriad positive contributions. But his efforts do not make everything he says/does to be above rebuttal.
Most of the criticism has concerned whether he is/not in touch with and whether he fairly/accurately identifies ALL of the sources of the problems he cite. I, for example, wish 'Pastor' Cosby would use his pulpit to criticize the TV/cinema, record companies, etc. that perpetuate much of the very dysfunctionality that he decries. But the 'cynic' in me suspects that (being the savvy businessman that he is) he would abstain from such for fear of offending any past/present/possible (and White) business relations.
Chris,
Aight, Brothaman! And here's five on the Black-hand-side! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 499
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 04:56 pm: |
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A_womon,
What do you mean by "Think about the reasons why in 5 years Congress will be deciding if AA's may continue to vote."? Why do you feel our suffrage is at risk? Are you referring to whether/not the voting rights legislation will be upheld by Congress? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 576
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 05:25 pm: |
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2 mo cents:
I can slightly appreciate the stoning, shootin the messenger argument, but only slightly...BC's hands are bloodied, as ChrisH, has reminded us.
Also, and more importantly to me, is A_Womon's point, as I read it. She is talking about War and Power. We need more power, so we can not sabotage the little we have for truth sake, which means what exactly? There are many truths, so which are the ones that will be publicized? Yes. Black folk are lazy and white folk are lazy, white folk are not racialized and discriminated based on race. We don't have to hand over our weapons in order to rearm. there will always be poor black people as there will be poor whites, asians, hispanics, but the issue is what is the cause? Is it self-destruction or is it racism, etc...or both...I say both as it pertains to people of color! Yet, the essential point is that racism is particular and specific to most blacks, hispanics, and asians and self-destruction, poverty, etc...is a general reality of all humans--blacks, asians, whites, hispanics, indians, etc...
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 313
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 06:49 pm: |
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YUKIO!! I love you!!! How is it that you ALWAYS get what I'm saying? I gotta meet you. This is it!!!! Thank you. Yes that's it!! Now go on over to the poetry board and answer my call that I gave you 3 days ago!!!
ABM, yes I am speaking of exactly that. With all of the political snaufus (sp) that were pulled last election, what or who is to guarantee that congress will sign the voting rights act again when it comes up for review!! And why is it even still up for review???? Why wasn't it made a permanent, immutable right like ones in the civil rights ammendments? Yes abm these are my questions. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 508
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:04 pm: |
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A_womon,
You raise a valid issue. Admittedly, I am not an expert on US Federal Law, so will abstain from commenting on why the Voting Rights Act (VRA) requires period renewal. Perhaps that is a question to address with YOUR US Senator and Congressperson office.
Some would argue that the protections provided via VRA are now available to AA's via other legislative/judicial means and, thus, the VRA is not as vitally important as it was when it was originally enacted. Do you argue otherwise? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 315
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:10 pm: |
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I don't know ABM, tell which laws you are speaking of? If our "suffrage" is protected under other laws, then why not throw out the VRA as archaic and unnecessary?
I agree that I probably need to hit the good Senator up about my concerns. It's a good Idea for all of us I think. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 510
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:20 pm: |
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A_womon,
Well, again, I am not an expert in this area. But I know there is SO MUCH post-VRA Civil Rights legislation on the books that there likely is indeed SOME that at least indirectly governs voting-related issues. And I think even a novice attorney could win a case where an American citizen is blatantly denied their electoral privilege.
But I agree it would probably behoove us ALL to acquaint ourselves with such a issue of such paramount importance. If/when I have garnered any relevant info on this subject, I will relay it here. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 316
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:24 pm: |
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Good idea A, I will do the same!! |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 110
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:39 pm: |
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A_Womon.........it was a joke. There's no badges to pass out for age or lack there of......it's just a small attempt on my part to add a little laughter to the sometimes thickness and "fights" we find ourselves engaged in. So, as I bow my head and step out ............bye.
I ain't about to get caughtup in that lead in. No, I seen/felt that from a mile away. The doors are open........
Carey |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 317
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:47 pm: |
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Whatchu talking bout Carey??????????
I just asked you a question, now aint I allowed to do that without you gettin ya feathers all ruffled???? I'm still smilin' *Inside thang* |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 212
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 09:03 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: You wrote, "How can you agree with Thumper who said about Bill Cosby that "there ain't no need of getting mad because someone is tellin the truth," and then turn around and say what you say, Chris? (Talk about flip-flopping.)
As far as Cosby is concerned, you seem to have a case of hating the message because you don't like the messenger."
Cynique, Cynique, Cynique, where for art thou glasses? That question was posed to A_womon and not Cosby. I wasn't flip flopping at all. Read the post again and then get back with me.
A_womon: I ain't afraid to say it, youth is wasted on the young. As a grayhead once said to me, keep living. Now about that voting thing you're talking about. Honey, some of us know all about it. We even discussed it here on the board. It's in the archives somewhere. I know because it was Clinton who signed the last one. It comes up every 7 years or something like that. I was told then that even if it expired and was not renewed, we are still about to vote under the 15th Amendment of the Constitution:"Amendment XV - Race no bar to vote. Ratified 2/3/1870. History
1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.
2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."
Now although this Amendment was ratified in the late 1800s it took the Civil Right movement to eliminate the poll tax and AA from having to take and pass a test in order to vote. This injustice was taken care of with the 24th Amendment. The Amendment XXIV - Poll tax barred. Ratified 1/23/1964. History
1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
2. The Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation."
Now what?? You still got some homework to do dearheart. When I was going to school, grade school mind you, we had to memorize the Amendments to the Constitution. And don't sit and wait for someone else to do your work for you. We are on the internet, write your Senator and congressmen, they are there for a reason. Do you even know who your Congressmen are? *eyebrow raised* I email my Congress people at the drop of a hat. I have their websites saved in my Favorite list. I keep up with some of the laws and bills being passed and who my representatives voted on the issues. It's called being civil minded. Now how many of your hip hop compatriots, including yourself is doing the same thing? *eyebrow raised again*
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 319
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 09:30 pm: |
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Thumper
Well I aint afraid to say age is wasted on the old, that's fa sho!!
I had to learn the articles of the constitution too, but does it stick in my head 24/7 NO IT DOES NOT. And I'd be willing to bet you aint spouting those articles off the top of your head NEITHER!
That's what this board is for, to exchange ideas that others might have overlooked.Yes or NO? AND YES! I know who sits on my city council, who the MAYOr Governor, Senator, and Congressman are. And If you had read what I wrote, at the end of my last post, you would have seen that I said it might be a good idea for me to contact my Senator. Do you read the posts or just skim them????????? hmmmmmmmmm
And look on any avenue, you are liable to see me or one of my hip hop compatriots, rockin the vote!! pounding the sidewalks and registering people to vote. NOW how bout that? Are you and any of your senior literary compatriots doing anything like that?????!!!! *BOTH eyebrows raised* Watched any videos lately, we are rockin the vote there too! Now, how bout that?!!! |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 213
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 09:54 pm: |
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Hello All,
A_womon: You wrote, "I had to learn the articles of the constitution too, but does it stick in my head 24/7 NO IT DOES NOT. And I'd be willing to bet you aint spouting those articles off the top of your head NEITHER!"
And that would have been a bet that you would have lost too! We should have done it, cause I need the money. I even got a couple of Supreme Court cases memorize. And you? *eyebrow raised*
You also wrote, "I know who sits on my city council, who the MAYOr Governor, Senator, and Congressman are. And If you had read what I wrote, at the end of my last post, you would have seen that I said it might be a good idea for me to contact my Senator. Do you read the posts or just skim them????????? hmmmmmmmmm"
About skimming posts, I could ask the same of you, and now that I think about it, I am asking the same of you. Honey don't think about it writing the folks...WRITE THEM! If you know who they are then you know how to call, write, or email them. Act on that "good idea". Write your senator...ah, you never did tell us who your Senator is, you know each state got two right? Anyway write him or her and let us know what he said.
You also wrote, "And look on any avenue, you are liable to see me or one of my hip hop compatriots, rockin the vote!! pounding the sidewalks and registering people to vote."
I just came back from doing just that and I didn't see you or your friends. You all must have been hiding under that invisibility cloak, huh? *eyebrow raised* *LOL* Lovey, don't rock the vote, cast that bad boy. See, I'm all about action, not thinking about it, sticking my chest out about it, but doing it.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 320
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 10:49 pm: |
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Well Thumper,
I don't know about YOUR state but MY state has 33 senators, each having a district
Now the senator in my district is Ray Miller
And on the Federal level there are 2 Mike DeWine
and George Voinovich |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 834
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 11:46 pm: |
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Thumper, Thumper, Thumper, read my post again. It was directed at Chris, not you. I was accusing Chris of flip-flipping because he agreed with you one minute and disagreed with you the next.
I agreed with everything you said and, in fact, gave your post 4 stars. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 835
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:01 am: |
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Well, I'll pose my favorite question and see what answers I get this time. Why is it that some blacks are able to ascend into the ranks of the middle and upper classes, and others are not. What do the former do, that the latter don't do? This is a familiar question and the answer always comes up that the poor will always be with us. But how poor can people be if they have money for expensive gym shoes and designer duds? And does being poor affect your brain in such a way as to make you keep having babies that you can take care of and because you can't take care of them, they end up like you. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 579
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:47 am: |
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Cynique: I don't believe in formulas...because everyone can not make it, regardless of personal effort,...sometimes its not in the cards!
1.Most of who achieve middle-class status were already there, and the others through hard work, support system, and luck. Of course, hard work could still land u in the hard stable working class, but this too is better than being poor....so there are no quarantees...for those lazy, irresponsible cats...well, they are lazy and irresponsible...others don't know how to "ascend"...there are too many reasons... There are no guarantees!
2. I doubt that these women who have many children do so because they want to be poor, and I also doubt that a parent not purchasing expensive sneakers for their children would get them out of poverty...this is the problem with sterotypes and formulas, for many poor folk wear hand me downs and have one child and remain poor...
Individual and milieu: The issue is having the fortitude, support system, and resources to make better choices...these are the basic qualites that can help one out of the underclass...
Societal: This includes protest for better communitiy services, more funds for our schools, etc....anti-discrimination, etc...
General: All this requires know-how...raising kids is something learned over time, from relatives, etc...so yes, it is likely that if one is raised by someone who is uneducated or ignorant to the workings of school, then yes the child may be similar to the parent...and the comparison to illiteratre ex-slaves during reconstruction getting themselves and their children educated is romantic and valid but there are some reals differences...the community(though there was always intraracial class tensions) actually made it their business to provide instiutions, though underfunded and staffed, for the community...this is not the case now...we have parents who know their children go to school, receive ok grades, and even graduate, but these kids are often underprepared for the labor force, because they often lack work experience, have no connections, and the education they received was not competitive with what was received in other schools....and of course, there are the households where the parents have no idea what they are doing besides feeding and clothing their children, for they don't know how to take care of themselves...this is the absence of grown folk or elders...this is all, i believe, a product of desegregation, reaganism(80s), and the black community, therefore black men and women, being generally underequipped...
It is NOT, as the foolish Cosby suggests, mostly self-inflicted. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 842
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 01:22 am: |
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I'll never be convinced that a woman who doesn't tie herself down with a bunch of kids by different fathers will not better her chances for escaping poverty than one who does. There is one formula: it's easier to move ahead, if you don't burden yourself with a lot of baggage.
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 214
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 05:38 am: |
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Hello all,
Cynique, Cynique, Cynique, I most humbly apologize. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 580
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 10:13 am: |
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Interesting conversation...i'm takin a break from the cave..for a day or 2.
Yes. Less or no children increases the likelihood of "escaping poverty." That is very simple, isn't it? I say NO.
Did these boys and girls have elders or a community around spouting these simplicities from young? Did they have computers, books, encouraging guidance counselors, etc...in the their schools, etc...?
Probably not!
If ya gonna use a formula, you need resources and know-how and they have to learn it from somewhere...to what extent to these boys and girls who get pregnant think about their life rather than the moment?...And to what extent do they have practice thinking of life and the future rather than the moment? This must be cultivated...
Is it because of the breakdown of the black family? General economic issues that affect poor people, especially black poor people in a particular way.
Again, as it pertains to black folk, we are underequipped and attacked by general structural and societal inequalities.
One of the simple problems is that we are not really a community, but individuals who happen to be black, so that folk can talk about what should be done but there not there or interested in doing it(giving money to college students is returning the money to people who could take out loans...they've already made it), yet they also wanna talk about how it used to be...similarly, folk have lost their minds and nostalgically(i made this word up)created this myth that all u have to do is close ya legs, go to school, learn standard english and everything is gonna be alright...when they is only half of the half...folk forget that the black community was partially the result of the US not providing us with equal opportunties, resources, rights, etc....now, we have the rights, more not equal opportunites, but the community is gone...and we still don't have the resources, because the discrimination is still there...ya don't need no negro signs to discriminate against black people!
In other words, we HAD a group mentality as we confronted racism as a group, because we understood that is wasn't individual, for class did not prevent a nigrah from being a nigrah.
Now we don't confront racism, and we live as individuals rather than a group(we are truly americanized), but we are still discriminated as a group, as black people, as a "race."
So we are at this historical moment when we mostly live as individuals, but we often maintain a semblance of a group mentality...
This is the WHY(this is my matrix mode), besides the kkk, there are no publicly self-described "white leaders," for their is an assumption that politicians, public employees and officials, and private enterprise represents and treats us as individuals...no need, the logic goes, for white advocates, though black folk know(or used to know) they ARE indeed white advocates w/o publicizing it on placards!
Can we really be individuals and poverty be a human problem and/or can it be endemic to our culture, as cosby suggests, and we maintain a race mentality, but this time for the purpose of maligning the group rather than fighting against racism and "rearming" ourselves as a group?
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 843
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 10:53 am: |
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The rub, my dear Yukio, is that racism will never disappear. Being zenophobic is inherent in the human race. There is always a dislike of the unlike. If black people came to power and were in control, they would be racist. So in dealing with the situation we have to think outside the box. We have to circumvent racism and set short-term goals. One of these goals should be to arm your self to fight the battle. Even if you get a second-rate education, you can still better yourself. If you can read, you can learn and if you can learn you can move up. Ambition to do better is the key. And if you don't like what you see when you look around you then that should motivate your ambition. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 581
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:08 pm: |
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Cynique, my heart, u've only repeated what i've already stated here and elsewhere. Of course social inequality of any kind, "racial" religious, and class, blood, caste, etc...is inherent and part and parcel of human history.
What is different between us, is that I focus on two fronts and u on one, it seems to me.
U can not circumvent racism...that is crazy...u must confront it head on; set short-term and long-term goals...
I've made many points that indicate individual effort is ONLY part of the solution. It must be both individual(education/arming oneself) and societal(protest,understanding how the government, corporations, eletoral politics, the distribution of resources, etc...affects the black community in general and the individual in particular)...this is all i've said, though i've based it in a general historical backdrop. We'
ve had this exchange before, so i'll leave at that... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 512
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:47 pm: |
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Are problems are not primarily that of race. They are of community and economics. Until we ALL invest in each others families, neighborhoods, educations, businesses, etc. we ALL - including Cosby - will continue to lag far behind others.
We Blacks have been deluded into expecting to succeed as individuals when all of history proves we will rise or fall collective.
The Black community is NOT the only community of people who is made to suffer its own naredowells. However, we are least capable of enforcing upon each other certain basic codes of behavior. It would be much easier to promote more socio-economic responsibility among our people...if we could educate, employ, finance, shelter, clothe and feed each other.
Yet NONE of us can really do that. We ALL, no matter our relative wealth/income must go hat-n-hand to White people to maintain/advance our position. Well, if even Cosby, Oprah, P.Diddy, Michael Jordan and Spike Lee are subject to the approval/strictures of others, what chance do many of those who are much less fortunate/capable/skilled/talented than they have to prevail?
I think what the Cosby's of the world refuse to see that THEY are a part of the pyramid of failure that many others they decry are built upon.
Of course having scads of out-of-wedlock children is a formula for personal (and familial) failure. But there was a lot of misfortune/mishaps that occurred prior to most such young women engaging in this self-defeating behavior. And we ALL have, to varying degrees, helped wrought (or at the very least tolerated) a culture that promotes her personal irresponsibility.
And there was a time when even when our young women made similar mistakes the entire family/community rallied around her and her children to prevent her and her children from perpetuating their mother's errors.
I personally have a cousin who had 2 children before her 17th birthday who now has a Ph.D. in Child Psychology. She was able to succeed in spite of her early troubles because her parents, siblings and neighbors helped see to her and her kids while she worked/studied (and the male’s siblings started aggressively warding off any males who would hope to help engender that 3rd kid. HAHA!).
We no longer have such a community.
Now, children born to women like my cousin are likely to be ignored/abandon not only their parents but also their extended family and communities, become ensnared in assorted ineffectual welfare and foster care systems and themselves become teenaged mothers, illiterate school drop-outs, criminals, etc. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 513
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:51 pm: |
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Thumper,
Thanks for citing the 15th and 24th Amendments. Though, can you explain why if these Amendments adequately ensure our right to vote why is (or even was) there ever a need for the Voting Rights Act to begin with? Is it that even in spite of the protections awarded by those Amendments, there are still ways of legally preempting people from voting that have been more effectively address within the VRA?
For instance, in many US States a former felon can NEVER vote. Now, considering that African Americans are disproportionately convicted of felonies (notice I say "convicted", not "perpetrators"), isn’t a great (and growing) percentage of our people being forever denied their suffrage?
Now, some might say if you have committed a serious crime, you deserve being denied access to the polls. Well, should it be (constitutionally) legal to FOREVER preclude one from voting who have paid their debt to society...especially when you continue to collect payroll, FICA, sales and property taxes from that person (BTW: Wasn’t there something in the Declaration of Independence defying "...taxation without representation..."?)?
Actually, the more I think about it, the more I wonder if given the current problems within the Black communities if even the VRA is enough to allow us to vote. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 325
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:55 pm: |
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ABM
time for another email check, my friend |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 425
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 01:45 pm: |
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http://www.ucomics.com/boondocks/2004/07/20/
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 844
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 02:47 pm: |
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Well, y'all since life is a state of flux, there are no concrete answers to all of these vexing problems because the rules keep changing, and the solutions keep mutating. Everyone just has to dupe out there own way of beatin the system. Winners will win, and losers will lose. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 582
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 03:45 pm: |
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Not exactly cynique...abm and I are saying,...is that it is not about "everyone," but us as a community...this is why I talked about the difference between the past(community) and the present(individualism). Harold Cruse discusses this is in the first chapter of the Crisis of the Negro Intellectual...the hypocrisy of individualism and American ideals when group rights are always the underbelly of politics. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 516
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 04:16 pm: |
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Yukio,
Well stated. Blacks must realize that all of this roughed-individualist and pull-yourself-by-your-bootstraps crap is just an effective divide-n-conquer method.
Where, for example, would an intellectually-challenged George W. Bush be without his family connections/money?
We will either rise or fall together. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 846
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 04:34 pm: |
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Ain't gonna happen, guys. Sounds good in theory, but I guarantee you it won't come into fruition. We're dealing with too many variables here. |
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