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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 353
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 05:52 pm: | 
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What do you think of segregation and integration, etc, in late 20th century? Has it improved our community's education? Where there things that we could've done better? What do we need to do now? |
Passion
Regular Poster
Username: Passion
Post Number: 37
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 06:44 pm: |
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I think there's a still a chance for it to work.
Provided the "blacks" can aquire the belief that they are equally human to whites, etc. and stop thinking that they must aquire "whiteness" to be authentically human.
That's really what messes integration up--the color hierarchy which creates resentment and separation.
As you know--Zora Hurston and Toni Morrison and my own friend Derrick Bell have all written AGAINST integration. **Yukio--you would love to read Derrick Bells new book which deals with this very subject.
Zora Hurston said she considered integration "an insult", and that's because although she was American, she was raised in a community very much like a homogenous African one. The blacks owned the town, "celebrated" their own images and were emersed completely in their own reality--happily enjoying/fighting each other and deliberately Non-connected to the white ruling world outside. Zora recognized that integration could destroy her town and her culture, economically and socially...and she was right...it did.
I agree with Derrick Bell, Toni Morrison and Zora pretty much, and I appreciate that they recognize that "racism" is not really the problem...and that White Supremacy IS and that most blacks, unwittingly, were (and still are) raised on a daily basis to be white supremacists themselves.
My own birth father told me back in Omdurman: "The world's only true religion is white supremacy. Islam and Christianity are just decoys to hide that fact."
Still, I do think that if we become "conscious" of the power of white supremacy...then we can still make integration work.
I personally have seen it work beautifully with those whites,asians, latins involved in my own personal life. They are close to me, an intricate part of my life...but my aura keeps them at an "awed" distance. A wonderous kind of respect is extended to me and they know that while I'm their friend, I do maintain my own separate world inwhich they have no rank or real presence.
They can tell...without even asking...that I place more value on my "blackness" than I do on their "whiteness", and in fact, might even pity them.
I feed these people (because I love to cook), they've swam at my house or danced at our Bar-B-Q.
The Black Americans where I live especially love me and feel nourished when they come to visit my family. They feel more like family, however, than the whites do...because,instinctively, they are.
YES...integration can still work. Blacks just need to create a designated place INSIDE their conscious...where they are connected by their shared blackness to other blacks and that is OFF LIMITS to all others.
People here think we already have that. I totally disagree, because I am from somewhere where blacks really do have it.
This also makes other groups RESPECT you...when you have boundaries, secret rooms...inwhich they are not allowed.
Blacks in America will never get the respect within this country that they deserve until they learn to "embrace" their own ancestral African identity, uphold blackness as their Highest Value and not yellowness--conformity to white supremacy...and come together.
Then integration can work, because they will have an identity and will receive respect for being SOBER.
The 1960's Black Power movement was the greatest shining moment of the Black Americans...and of all African people. It is still the moment that people in Accra, Addis Ababba and Omdurman speak about with enormous pride and LONGING.
The whole world respected them and were at their feet...because for the first time, they stood up as A PEOPLE and threatened all out war if their identity and heritage as Africans was not recognized.
Black Power made undeniable changes, "integration" being one of them. It also put the rest of the world on notice.
It was a start...I think the seed is still there for us to bring WHOLENESS to our children.
And once Blacks are truly equal human beings...then integration can most definitely work!!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 435
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 11:09 am: |
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It's longer about integration. It's about diversity in a inter-racial setting. It's also about blacks being diverse enough to function in both a black and a white world. Being preoccupied with color is a waste of time. Pride is one thing. Survival is another. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 436
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 11:36 am: |
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correction: I mean to say it's NO longer about integration. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 354
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 01:06 pm: |
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I don't really think it was ever about cultural integration, but political and economic integration...many wanted desegregation, which pertained to availability. The essential issues, however, have been in the realm of politics...and with Brown II, the Supreme Court left desegregation and the distribution of resources to the white segregationists who closed public schools and created private schools for white students...interestingly, this hurt the poor whites who couldn't afford to pay for school and many poor people, black and white, moved and created different strategies to get their schooling.
So now, while many black communities are part of larger communities of color, the issue as it was then is political power to ensure that communities school have adequate resources, competent teachers, etc....of course I believe the curriculm should reflect the culture of the community. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 192
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 01:13 pm: |
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Cynique,
How do Blacks, who already suffer a MYRIAD disadvantages vs Whites, adequately compete for our fair share when we must be "diverse enough to function in both a black and a white world"? I am not questioning the rationale of what you state. I imagine that is what many of us have been trained to reasonably expect of ourselves. But I question the logistical possibility of adequately achieving such. Sure those few of us who are uniquely or immensely talented and/or enjoy some socio-economic advantage may prevail. But, I imagine the many of us will (and often do) fail to achieve/maintain a healthy/productive balance while trying to co-exist in both sphere.
Though, I suppose one's success at the above would depend largely on how much/little one must invest him/herself in either "world". |
Kc_trudiva
Veteran Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 59
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 02:03 pm: |
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us news & world report did an excellent cover story on this subject titled: "50 years after brown." it chronicals the landmark decision from then to now and talks about the changes (good and bad) that are a result.
if you're a subscriber, it's the march 22, 2004 issue. if not, your local library should have a copy if you're interested. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 194
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 03:15 pm: |
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I don’t know. But whenever I ponder the relative merits of "integration" and/or "diversity" (and after my migraine clears), I can’t help thinking that If I am White, and all have to do is focus on what ‘works’ primarily for other White people, I will start out with and likely maintain a material advantage over a Black person, who likely began with and continue to encounter disadvantages, not only within her own world, but also among the White world as well.
Therefore, I wonder what should we emphasize most: Diversity or Self-Reliance?
I have had the ‘privilege’ to regularly witness what White foks REALLY think about "Diversity"...and it ain’t nothing nice! Actually, to most White people I’ve observed in business environments, the subject of "diversity" has about the seriousness of a "knock-knock" joke.
Sure many companies will pay nicely coordinated lipservice to supporting a "diverse workplace"...right up until they’ve must assign Blacks to key, strategic roles within their businesses. At those levels, the "good ol’ boy network" continues to be full in effect.
And as long as that prevails, most of us will continue to race in quicksand.
But having said that, I still think Brown vs The Board of Education for Topeka, Kansas represent a watershed moment in the advancement of the American negro, though not for what it did or did not accomplish for schools.
No, Brown’s impact was it helped provide a launching pad for the Civil Rights movement, engendering the legal deconstruction of Jim Crow, Separate But Equal strictures, voting rights violations, etc. throughout the nation, and thus providing a "2nd Act" to Lincoln's Emancipation and the Civil War, which occurred some 90 years prior.
It is for those reasons; not whether it helped improved the educational system in Blacks in Topeka, KS; that the lore of that faithful court decision will throughout the ages honorably prevail. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 355
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 03:34 pm: |
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self-reliance will beget diversity if we have some political and economic power... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 437
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 03:50 pm: |
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Well, Abm, diversity in the work place provides a real-live opportunity for members of one ethnic group to confirm why they don't like members of another one. Without a diverse environment, folks would just have to speculate as to why they are clearly better than people who are different from them. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 238
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 11:29 am: |
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All:
I think we always have been integrated into this society--formerly as chattel, then as second class citizens, now in a fashion that it is hard for me to categorize--on paper we are fully members in this society but in practice there are exceptions and caveats.
What is it that persons want? Good housing, good jobs, good education, good health care, etc? Or to be socially integrated with white folks?
We demand equality--but equality with what and who? With white folks who live in Appalachia or Dogpatch? With white cops and firemen? Lawyers and Doctors? With billionaires?
To the original questions--residentially and socially St. Louis is almost as segregated as it has always been. Blacks live in better neighborhoods and blacks live in areas that are predominantly white where they couldn't before.
The routine is that if too many move in all the whites move out and formerly integrated area becomes all black.
Has it improved education--I think education all along the line has improved I think those blacks who can move to an upscale area get a better education than those who live in inner cities on the whole--there are exceptions--geniuses in the ghetto and dummies at private prep schools. I think in a lot of cases this has come at a price, in addition to trying to get one's lessons sometimes a black in a hostile environment also has to deal with a lot of bs and harassment (and sometimes, yes even today, psychological and physical intimidation not condusive to getting one's studies.
What could have been done better--instead of focusing on integration so much, focus on making black schools better--understanding that you will probably, because of the social and residential segregation in areas like st. Louis, etc, always have all black schools--ie total 100% integration will not happen in any of our lifetimes.
What do we need to do now? Good question. The deterioration of the inner cities have produced a situation that is not condusive to learning--this is a problem that cannot be rectified just by mandating tests and standards. Kids are growing up in no parent households. There is no money. No work. Gangs. Open air drug markets.
This is a societal and systemic problem--and I am not so sure society wants to solve it. After all, in this situation everybody is not supposed to make it, despite the propaganda. In order for there to be winners there must be losers. Despite the idiocy of Rush Limbaugh type economists that this is not a zero sum game it is--there is not a limitless amount of money--in order for there to be Bill Gates, there gotta be a lot of people running around making minimum wage.
Got to be. Put that in a society that is incarcerating almost one percent of its population, that has made the prison industry a big player, that is outsourcing good jobs as fast as it can (to lower the cost of the price of producing the goods but not lowering the cost of purchase) and which is basically a giant military financial intelligence industrial complex, and you have a situation where the will and the ability to "do" anything is not there.
What is happening out here in these schools and on these streets is what is SUPPOSED to be happening. When you get down to it, you have to decide to save yourself, your loved ones and who you can. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 441
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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You're right Chris. It's a hard pill to swallow, but - all problems do not have a solution. By the time a remedy is concocted, the disease has mutated. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 200
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2004 - 01:26 pm: |
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Chris/Cynique,
I agree with much of what you say. I think, though, the solution of many of our problems start with educating ourselves that America is first/foremost a BUSINESS. And any/everything that has/is/will be done occurs to suit the economic benefit of a select few. So when we talk, haggle and debate issues of "integrations", "diversity", "fair housing", "education", etc. we should in part try to view all such discussion via a larger, now global economic sphere. Because if we do that, perhaps we can better position ourselves to prosper...no matter the noise and minutae of what occurs around us. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 359
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 03:37 pm: |
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chrishayden: as passion has written, many in the black community advocated degregation w/o integration...since they sought cultural autonomy and excellence. At the same time, and something that I understand and accept but don't like, everyone can not be an entreprenuer, md, jd, etc...some folk have to work in mcdonalds and wallmart, yet....shouldn't communities have the resources necessary to produce m.d.s, j.d.s, ph.ds and the like? Of course there is money...but this points to the question of the federal government's interest in providing these funds rather than other programs(ie war, welfare capitalism)....
In addition: what do u guys think about bill cosby's recent spill on how civil rights leaders and the like didn't place their lives on the line for black folk to speak broken english....this is from a socalled ph.d in education by the way....
In the vain of abm's recent post...what should be our(african americans)domestic and international political economics strategies and policies adddress....ie affirmative action...more federal monies for city schools...do we criticize these multinational companies that exploit africa and the caribbean...is there some connection to the poverty in africa and the general "third world" and our own? Political scientists and sociologists call this peripheral("third world") communities in the core("first world")...also, culturally, do we try to rebuild a nation within a nation position, where we can become a legitimate political block(ya since many black folk vote purely by their class...)
Finally has anyone checked out derrick bell's most recent book, Silent Covenants? |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 245
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 01:07 pm: |
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Yukio:
I found it odd that Cos would stand in front of a college graduating class and start berating a bunch of people who weren't even there.
Maybe he was trying to be funny. Maybe he has, as some have opined, gone soft in the head.
If not and he was serious, it is showing what is happening to the so-called Black community--it is being riven on class and educational lines.
In the light of this and other developments I am afraid I must urge on black folks that they pursue their own strategies--those who can use affirmative action should champion it (understand it does janitors and minimum wage workers no good) those whose kids go to city schools should work for more money--those who have the time should criticize multinational companies (activists and college students, primarily)
Yes there is a connection to the poverty in African and the third world and our own but we can be of greatest help trying to battle it on our end right now.
Some who can never integrate, will build and nation within a nation, others, who want to integrate, will not.
The most effective blocks will be local ones, since there is little chance for cohesion on a national level.
As for bell's book. Haven't read it. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 455
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:03 pm: |
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Yukio and Chris, why do you have a problem with what Bill Cosby said? I find him out of touch in many areas, but I agree with him on this remark. Speaking Ebonics is not something that enhances a college graduate! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 365
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:35 pm: |
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ChrisHayden: hmmmm....i agree with most of what you say...I would only add that as a socalled black community, we need to re-cultivate a black consciousness that can both address local, regional, and international issues...this will be among the intelligensia, of course...albeit those organic intellectuals or the traditional(academic) ones...but the message needs to get out...
Cynique: hmmmmm... I can speak in many ways...ebonics, caubonics, and academic rhetoric...it is about being able to speak your local vernacular and mainstream vernacular...we all do this, no...is this not what we witness, here? I would assume that if these kids are graduating from college then the content of BC's comments they already know...but the way(method) seemed angry, classist, and elitist. Recall, how he disrespected a fellow black comedianne (a sista) because she used slang and/or ebonics on her show....In other words, this is a pattern of conservatism and elitism not a legitimate critique of some black folks disinterested in speaking formal US english. Futhermore, he tried to relate it to the civil rights movement, which it seems was ineffective at procuring valuable education for the masses of black folk. If it was ineffective, then clearly many of these black folk who are monolingual(only "ebonics")are products of both their interest and the quality of their education. Let us remember, what both CH and I have stated, everyone can not get a ph.d, j.d, mba, etc...what BC probably hates as a upclass negro, is the commodification of ghetto culture and that it is more recently associated with blackness rather than what he tried with the Cosby show(middle class blacks) and with the other program ( respectable home-owning blue collar families)....the key here, it seems, is that black folk function both in the mainstream regardless of class and as a viable black nation/ethnic group...so that you see all groups and races of people affliated/associated with the two families but you they are clearly culturally black and respectable. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 216
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:36 pm: |
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I tend to equivocate here. On the one hand, I enjoy street/hip-hop slang. Much of it has a very lyrically engaging lilt to it. It is almost like being a party to two forms of media at once: a discussion and a performance.
But I agree with the Cos if he asserts that we should not limit our mode of expression SOLELY to inner city vernacular. Because I do fear that if one learns only what is spoken in 'da hood', one might deny themselves worthy opportunities in a myriad ways and places beyond.
Yukio,
Can you quote at least part of what the Cos said? Then, perhaps we can more fairly/accurately comment.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 366
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:50 pm: |
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Howard's commencement:
"Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal," he declared. "These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids -- $500 sneakers for what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics.' . . .
"They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English," he exclaimed. "I can't even talk the way these people talk: 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' . . . And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk. And then I heard the father talk. . . . Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. . . . You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth!"
The Post's Hamil Harris reports that Cosby also turned his wrath to "the incarcerated," saying: "These are not political criminals. These are people going around stealing Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a piece of pound cake and then we run out and we are outraged, [saying] 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What the hell was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"
When Cosby finally concluded, Howard University President H. Patrick Swygert, NAACP President Kweisi Mfume and NAACP legal defense fund head Theodore Shaw came to the podium looking stone-faced. Shaw told the crowd that most people on welfare are not African American, and many of the problems his organization has addressed in the black community were not self-inflicted.
Comedian Bill Cosby wants black Americans to follow the example of civil rights leaders in improving their neighbourhoods and reaching out for higher education.
"These people marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an education and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around," he said Monday evening at an NAACP gala commemorating the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education decision 50 years earlier.
"Take the neighbourhood back," Cosby said, chiding parents who do not take an active role in caring for their children.
. . . In one of the lighter moments, comedian Dick Gregory pretended to run off with the medal he presented to Cosby.
Hampton's:
"Class of 2003, I'm worried about you because we're in a time when cars can be heard coming down the streets, blasting (the 'N' word). People say (the word) like they say, 'Pass the salt.' People are going crazy," Cosby said.
"They play it to a thump-thump. This is a word carved into the bodies of so many Africans before the rope went around their neck and they were burned.
"And you're going to play this in your car, for people to listen to?"
The importance of family values, pride in their history and appreciation of education were some of the messages that Cosby drove home during his tough, yet often funny, commencement speech.
About 1,270 graduates and an audience of more than 14,000 listened in Armstrong Stadium and via satellite from three overflow indoor sites on campus.
On Mother's Day, Cosby reminded the audience of the value of parenting.
Teenage pregnancies, rampant drugs and lack of respect for elders are symptoms of something gone wrong, he said, like fathers missing from the picture.
"Somebody's not teaching. Somebody's tired. Somebody's giving up. People say, 'God will find a way.' " Cosby said.
"God can't find a way if you're in the way."
He said this generation might set the record for the youngest grandmother, a "26-year-old grandmother who can't cook a pie," Cosby said to laughter.
He asked the graduates to seek an elder after the ceremony and ask them about growing up during times when getting a college degree was extremely rare and difficult.
Throughout history, black leaders were "willing to give up their lives to learn to read and write," Cosby said.
"You've got to understand the power of this education," he said.
Cosby said he sent his son to Morehouse College in Atlanta, a historically black school like HU, because he knew his son would have friends all around the country after that, and they could change the world together.
The first step for the graduates is to get a job and start working for change, he said.
The actor softened his words at the end, telling graduates that he loved them and wanted them to raise children who would also challenge wrongs and strive for better education in their communities.
"Where you stand today, it's just like you've been baptized," Cosby said.
"Today is a wonderful day. It's the rest of your life, and it's a beautiful life.
"I just want you to be strong."
Proud mothers and fathers applauded Cosby's speech as they cheered on their own graduates.
An enthusiastic audience often drowned out Cosby and other speakers.
Camps of 20 family members who traveled from other states were common Sunday, all carrying loads of flowers and balloons.
"This is the best gift," said Denys Davis, an HU alum and mother of Ahmad Davis, a mass communications graduate.
"Education is a gift, and having your child graduate on Mother's Day is like everything you taught him all those years given back to you in one day."
Her son was one of about 80 students in the first graduating class of the university's newest school, the Scripps Howard School of Journalism and Communications.
Cosby received an honorary degree. HU President William R. Harvey also received an honorary degree for leading the university for 25 years; his wife, Norma Baker Harvey, received one for her role as the president's wife.
"The world is moving so fast," said Harvey, who begins a one-year sabbatical from HU shortly. "These are days when a person who says it cannot be done is interrupted by someone doing it."
As parting advice, he gave students four tasks: to save money, purchase property, fight racism and drugs, and to support their alma mater.
"Be somebody," Harvey said.
"The world is waiting for you. Serve it and Hampton well.
"Now let's get on with it."
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 367
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 02:57 pm: |
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There is much I agree with in these two speeaches, but at the end of they day, what screams out to me is that he's saying....it's your fault that you're poor...it ya shit together because there are no excuses, now!
I say...that he is classist and that his attitude can not build bridges...there is no thing to say, "Brother you need to speak formal english in order to get a decent job, etc..." and another thing to say what he said....His "these people" comments is clearly demarcating his distinction by class, language, etc... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 218
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 03:50 pm: |
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Yukio,
I agree with you. Actually, after reading what you’ve posted, I must say you may have UNDERSTATED your points.
I mean, who is this you’re quoting anyway, Bill Cosby...or Ronald Reagan?
There is a distinct strain of Classism...Hell, almost ‘Racism’!...amid his words. I mean, I can’t believe he actually said, "...lower economic people are not holding up their end...", "I can't even talk the way ‘these’ people talk..."(& who the @#$% are ‘these people’ ANYWAY?), and "Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads".
JEEZ! The only thing he left out was "N@&&er$ ain’t $#@+!"?
Lord! What happened to him? Is this some kind of delayed reaction to some ‘acid’ he ‘dropped’ in the late ‘60’s or something?
Check it: Close you eyes and imagine seeing/hearing Bush or Cheney publicly say some of this crap. We’d be storming the White House!
This sounds like the rant of an embittered ol’ man who’s been painfully made to discover that time has passed him by.
PS: I find what he says about why he sent his son to Morehouse to be poignantly ironic. Because he says he sent Enis to Morehouse to gain/build associations with productive/prominent Blacks throughout the nation. Yet Enis was murdered by a White punk because his Benz broke down while he was trying to make a latenight booty call to...a White hoochie. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 457
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 04:54 pm: |
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A lot of black people don't want to hear what Bill Cosby is saying because it smacks too much of the truth. And just because there are excuses for the bad situations which Cosby says exist, does not mean that what he says is not true. As for all of these black organizations, they definitely don't want to hear Cosby's rant because they owe their continued existence to telling black people what they want to hear, instead of what they need to hear.
Yukio and I have this ongoing argument about whether an inner city resident who makes smart decisions will be guaranteed a way out of the ghetto. He says that not being a teen-aged mom and staying in school will not necessarily make for a better life. I say on an individual basis it may not, but if this message could reach the masses of young black kids, it could facilitate change. For one thing, it would reduce the violence because it would thwart the cycle of providing the victims and those who victimize them. 99 percent of jail inmates were born to single young moms and a very high percentage of them and their moms dropped out of school. (As for that ol smoke screen about more whites being on welfare than blacks, that's because the white population in America is much higher. There is a greater percentage of blacks on welfare in proportion to their numbers.) We gotta stop kiddin ourselves, folks.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 369
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 07:44 pm: |
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Please don't simplify my points, Cynique. In this very thread, I said there is some validity to BC's message. I think folk should complete h.s. and i certainly think that having children at a young age definitely makes it more difficult for folk to prosper if their already poor. Indeed, I even believe what you advocate can "help" on an individual level and masses level.
BUT, i don't stop with the black community, as Cosby does and as you seem to do. It is a two pronged/front struggle! Self-reliance and protest!We must critique US society, march, etc...whatever it takes...I believe that much of what this thread is about, the limitations of Brown v. Board is essential. For it is clear that Brown II left much of the political power to racist, therefore the potential for either integration or the distribution of state resources actually benefit the black community never occurred on a national basis. Consequently, without real political leverage then what can our community really do. This makes the civil rights organizations and other central because they have the resources and research to mobilize black communities.
Single-parent hood and crime, like it or not, has to do with poverty and the economy, as well as all these other things we've spoken about such as education. Look, I know many h.s. graduates and community college graduates who still live in the projects and they both "speak english" as BC advocates as well as ebonics. The fact is that they don't have the connections to get the jobs their prepared for...or they have a job, but their wages/salaries are really only enough to live off. Part of this has to do with the economy...others have to do with the fact that even with the completion of their h.s degrees et al...their education generally is inferior to a better funded educated child; these schools in the "hood" neither have the resources to education these kids nor the personell and often the curriculm to make these kids competitive.
So i don't disagree BC completely, but to limit one's analysis to the black community is shortsighted...in addition, if you are trying to encourage people, you can't talk to they like that! What do all black ol folk like to say, "Its not what you say its how u say it..." have we not all heard this as youth...i even think mr.abm said this to me recently...BC is grown and wise not to try to burn bridges like this with the youth....maybe not! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 461
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:18 pm: |
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Yukio, our generation gap is showing because what you say is necessary to happen in order for blacks to do better is what has been preached for the past 25+ years. But identifying the economic logistics of the problem hasn't produced much progress! There needs to be a drastic new strategy which involves a revamping of the ghetto culture. But this won't come to pass, because it's too controversial. So we are left to reach our familiar conclusion which is that in a capitalistic society the poor will always be with us. And just for the record, I confess to being an elitist. Also, I don't agree that advice to young people should be "sanitized". This doesn't work. It's time for a dose of tough love! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 372
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 10:41 pm: |
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I don't think its a generation gap...mostly ideological. Activism, particularly antiracism and working class struggle has always been part of our struggle. What have I said that "has been preached for the past 25+ years"? I haven't specified what the particular strategy should be....I agreed with what you said as well as added some, so I don't see much disagreement. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 464
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 21, 2004 - 11:04 pm: |
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Well implicit in your argument is that conditions need to change, not people and this is where the focus has been for the past 25 years. Maybe the different strategy should place empasis on blacks changing the behavior that makes them their own worst enemy. (All of these arguments are just academic because things ain't gonna get no better.) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 219
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 12:07 am: |
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Yukio,
Thanks. "Mr. ABM" <wink> couldn't said it better himself. Hey, Cynique I ain't going to disagree with anything you said, though I agree with Yukio that a lot of unfortunate things happen prior to a young girl getting pregnant. And, as Yukio suggested, it wasn't so much what Cosby said, it is how and where he said it. Because I will repeat, if a White man said publicly what he said the way he said it, his name would be burned in effigy.
Also, I have this simple question for "The Cos": Where has he been? I mean, I don't recall him being on the frontlines for elementary education, employment/gender discrimination, adult literacy, after-school tutorials, fair housing, etc.
Consider this: There was a brief time when Cos was the most powerful man in TV. How potent was Cosby? Before the advent of The Cosby Show, NBC was the lowest rated network broadcaster. When the show departed, it was the highest rated broadcaster.
He made BILLION$ for NBC.
NBC's potent Thursday night must-see-TV schedule was ushered in via the Cosby Show. Cosby rescued (White favorites) Family Ties, Cheers (the 'father' of Frazier), which then fronted subsequent TV sacred cows Seinfeld, ER, Friends, etc. It was even reputed that for a brief time then NBC President Brandon Tartikoff meekly answered to Bill on all programming matters at NBC - Saturday Nite Live even did a humorous skit about their relationship.
ALL THAT POWER...and what did he accomplish with it other than to score a 1/2 Billion bucks on the Cosby Show syndication deal (which, I ain't even mad at him for)...and hock Jell-O pudding pops (what was his grown @$$ doing THAT stuff for anyway?)?
BTW: Hasn't his dreadful "Ghost Dad" been declared by the Motion Pictures Assoc. to be the worst movie since the advent of talkies?
Sure, he's given money to HBC's (with a HIGH % of it going to schools his KIDs attended, Spellman/Morehouse). But by the time a kid is 18, it's too late. By then, Cynique, the teen mom already has at least 1 baby daddy. Maybe, if he was really concerned about Ebonics, he would have divvied up some of the $40M he gave Spellman to HUNDREDS of grassroots local/community groups that could have helped cure the social ills he now decries.
And NOW he wants us to listen to his complaints about the direction of Black America...when he's a tired, cantankerous, impotent, has-been? Well, too bad. Because he is too late for what he thinks to really matter. And that, more than anything else, maybe what he is REALLY upset about.
PS: Cynique, I am watching "LOTR: Fellowship" for like the bizziont time (I know...SUPER geek.). I don't know why, but the saddest part to me in all 3 films is when Gandolf falls into the chasm after defeating the fire demon. I know he doesn't 'die' (At least I 'guess' he doesn't...heck, I don't know). But I guess because that is the first heartbreaking scene in the series (and the dire initial reaction of the Fellowship to his apparent 'death'), it always kinda gets to me. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 220
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 12:20 am: |
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Cynique,
I know this will come off as patronizing...and I guess it is...but whenever you mention how cynical you are about the way things are and likely will be, I can't help but want to hug you. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 373
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:22 am: |
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Cynique: Why not take what has been written, especially when what I have said contradicts what you believe is implicit:
1."There is much I agree with in these two speeaches"
2."In this very thread, I said there is some validity to BC's message. I think folk should complete h.s. and i certainly think that having children at a young age definitely makes it more difficult for folk to prosper if their already poor. Indeed, I even believe what you advocate can "help" on an individual level and masses level."
3."I agreed with what you said"...
So, it is three times that I agreed with both u and bc that people should be the focus.
There is no contradition between changing conditions and focusing on changing people. In fact, implicit in BC's rhetoric is that if blacks improved their education then their living conditions would improve(change). If this not then, chaning conditions? I also add, that if we can mobilize folk to vote and get some of these federal monies or programs, etc...then we can improve our schools, so that these kids who stay in school will not only get a degree but a competitive degree.
Also, you are incorrect. What i advocate has been going on longer than 25+. More importantly, what you advocate is as old...much of the women's clubs' of the 1890s, the National Urban League(established 1910..I think) has been along the lines of focusing on the people, the 1970s welfare and even the present social service programs focus on the people. Afterschool programs focus on the people's children, assuming(often correctly) that the children's delinquency is the product of irresponsible, immoral parents.
In fact, if you read some of MLK's, Jesse Jackson, Malcolm X, Farrakhan, the Nation of Islam and AL Sharpton have said much of what you and BC have stated, though with less venom.
In other words, both strategies have always been advocated and still are, but black folk have usually been careful not to "air their dirty laundry" in public, but they did so in church, at their organizational meetins, etc...They understood that to "air their laundry" was to provide white leverage to circumvent the changes that they could not effectively challenge alone, and those pertained to political and economic power.
So, again, I agree with both, for neither is enough by themselves. I can go to school, work hard, and graduate but my degree is not competitive with other who graduate with more resources and connections. At the same time, I now have this school with all these new computers, software, library facilities, money for trips to the museum, and international exchange programs, but i don't have the drive or desire to excel...
To only focus on the people is to say that the people are solely responsible, so why not focus on the people and society? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 116
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:39 am: |
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Hey ALL
IACUAFOTG!!!! This is too funnee.
I feel you all have just engaged in a highly intellectualized version of what I said about street writers. Basically it is this: If you want to change the people produced by the ghetto lifestyle then change the ghetto. You know changing the socalled lower economically based attitudes toward themselves first begins with changing the environment in which they live, work and grow! What good is speaking perfect english if it isn't going to get you anywhere because there is nowhere to go? I don't want to hear all of these simplistic philisophical solutions to a problem that is stagnant and unchanging largely due to the fact that when black people gain some measure of financial security and remember in america money equals power,they stand on some aloof platform and look down their noses at people who are basically trapped in the ghetto and say "why don't you get up off your asses, speak the king's english and get a 60k per year job" yeah right!
I agree with abm why doesn't the cos put his money where his mouth is and funnel some of his billions back into the inner city to try to affect real change, not just hurl rhetoric of white people at them.
Economic Snobbery is what it boils down to. Just a newer way of saying " I got mine now get yours the best way you can!"
I also agree with yukio, there is a place for ebonics as well! There is something comforting about kickin it with your friends and speaking the language of the streets. I love it and I'm not changing it for the sake of some snobs who are ashamed of it. Look, white kids have their version of ebonics too as yukio breifly alluded to. So what is the difference? If anything, the only thing that should be stressed is knowing when to switch up and use a more professional form of english. This is what needs to be taught to our children! Someone else spoke of this very thing on another thread. Stop devaluating the way our children speak based on some European standard of right and wrong. We have been living by these standards, have been bombarded with these standards really, in all areas of our life they are empirically designed to make us feel inferior! No wonder people in these communities give up and lose hope. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 223
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 09:39 am: |
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Toni Morrison is at this very moment hosting a Book Notes program that is discussing Brown v. Board. To honor the 50th Anniversary of the B v. B, she has written “Remember: The Journey to School Integration”. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 248
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 10:52 am: |
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Cynique:
Was he talking about you? I think not. Was he talking about the Ukranian immigrant that killed his son? Probably not. He was drunk or trying to be funny or gone soft in the head. If you want to hear who got aid and comfort from his remarks you should have listened to the right wing racist scum on the talks shows fairly salivating about it.
He could have served as a better example to them had he refrained from having children out of wedlock himself--but I guess it would be mean to bring that up.
Yukio: Get out of the "we" brother. As evidenced by Cosby's remarks, it is every man woman and child for his or herself in 21st century America.
When they took down the "colored only" signs, and said you could sit in the front of the bus and you didn't have to live together in the ghetto, that was it. The Black upper class--what there is of it, doesn't give a damn about the middle and the middle doesn't give a damn about the bottom. There is no Black Unity save in the breach.
There is no "we" anymore. There maybe should be, but there isn't. My struggles to get my books published don't mean a damn thing to people trying to eat everyday or keep the gas and lights on. It is tribe time. The gangbanging kids have adopted a twisted and perverted recongition of this. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 225
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 12:09 pm: |
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Chris,
You, in you inimically sardonic way, have offered such salient points, you have inspired me to proffer the following:
1) Bill Cosby targets his ire to ignorant/hapless Blacks yet COMPLETELY omits any discussion about the socio-economic influences, much of it deriving from his Art & Entertainment masters, that is causing/perpetuating the social anomalies that trouble him so.
2) And, again, it so ironic that a WHITE thug, not a BLACK one, killed his kid. And his son was killed while in pursuit of sex with a WHITE woman, not a BLACK one.
3) Whatever happened to the daughter and baby momma who was trying to extort cash from him (I hope the aren't buried under a cornfield somewhere in New Mexico.)? I NEVER heard whether or not he ever took a paternity test. If he was wholly disqualified as the girls father, wouldn't we ALL know that? I mean, you are right Chris...what a @#$%ing hypocrite! This guy has helped PERPETUATE a problem that he's now COMPLAINING about!
4) I fear you are largely right about how we have abandon our less fortunate brothers/sisters. But, like Yukio, I do believe we can to some degree bring our 'family' back together again. For example, I think as the Bushes/Cheneys of the world get crazier & crazier, Black of all ilk/place are going to be compelled to think LONG/HARD about our place/destiny in this world. And I truly believe that even the products of the underclass; even denizens and products of the inner city, thugs, hip/hoppers, etc. are going to figure out we need to posse up and ride TOGETHER. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 375
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 12:10 pm: |
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chrishayden: In my opinion, life is really what you imagine it to be, so I will continue to imagine that their is a black community...
Many are surprised by black conservatism and republicans...I am not. There is a long history of intra-racial class conflict...there has never been a golden age of black unity.
If we take seriously what social historians have said for the past 15 yrs, then it is clear that many of these class differences were always within the community...tenuous...particular to specific goals...
All cultural groups have intra-class conflict, so let us not confuse dissension, disagreement, etc....with an actual void of a black community. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 465
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:34 pm: |
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My!My! I get off my computer to go read a book, and look what has been posted since I left! And so, the beat goes on... We all continue to weigh in on the "black" problem, and come up with the same ol gray solutions. But, before I jump into this bottomless pit, let me make one thing clear. I am no big fan of Bill Cosby although I thought it was great that he and his wife contributed a million dollars toward the rennovation of Fisk university a while back. And I do think it's cool for black people to be bi-lingual. (I've always thought that black slang, as opposed to Ebonics, is really clever and creative.)And I do realize that racism has stunted black progress. But, somewhere along the way, while analysing the state of black America, we have to divest ourselves of being politically correct and acknowledge certain truths no matter whose mouth they come out of. All of the hot air being expelled by our esteemed leaders does not melt the problem, and whatever it is we are doing, it ain't working! All of the dramatic rhetoric and the finger pointing hasn't produced big results. We say education lies at the root of many black problems. But when you have a classroom full of undisciplined children who have gotten that way because their single moms have no parenting skills, then how can a teacher who is actually in fear of her life, teach? When you have a generation of amoral inner city youths, who have no qualms about wantonly creating life by way of sex or cold-bloodedly destroying it by way of a gun, - when you have a horde of fatherless boys who embrace gangs to fulfill a need for belonging, then how can you curb the violence that contributes so much to the deterioration of the black community?? It all reverts back to the one thing from whence a myriad of related problems ensue: the breakdown of the family unit. And if this sounds like a conservative point of view, then I so be it. So, - what can be done about this dire dilemma??? Damned if I know. (Well, I really know, but I don't dare say it.) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 467
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
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Abm, if you wanna give this ol disilluioned skeptic a cyber hug, go head. ...Ooof. Hummm. That felt surprising good. What's that rubbing against my thigh. Wheeeee! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 469
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 02:28 pm: |
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Abm: Who knew?? I didn't realize that you were that much of a LOTR geek! Funny, nobody can figure why somebody like me is so into this trilogy. I wonder myself as to why I had no problem whatsover suspending my belief system and accepting without question all impossible things that happen in this story. I guess it's because it doesn't pretend to be anything other than fantasy, whereas real life pretends to be something that it isn't.??? Me, I thought the death scene between Boromir and Aragorn in "The Fellowship of the Ring" installment was very touching. Gets me every time. (I also like the smodering interaction between Aragorn and Arwyn.)BTW, Newline-Cinema has just e-mailed that my copy of "The Return of the King" which I pre-ordered online has been shipped and should arrive by May 15th when is the big day all of us "Ring Heads" have been waiting for! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 117
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:16 pm: |
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ABM-- Why is it that you imagine that the only place thugs and hiphoppers live is in the inner city? Didn't you just say that a Ukranian thug killed cosby's son? Correct me if I'm wrong(which I have no doubt you will) but are you saying that these are the only types of "denizens" that the inner city produces? Please expand upon the "etc." that you feel the inner city produces. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 377
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:35 pm: |
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cynique: hmmm...Isn't the breakdown of the black family both the product of the individual family members failures AND societal wrongs? If this is true, then don't both have to be addressed?
Futhermore, is it not clear that it most folk have done "immoral" things, and that the differences has been one's ability to circumvent socalled immorality with wealth. If this is true, again, why not focus on the both morality, in order to equip you will education, etc.., and protest to ensure that society is responsible to all citizens.
Finally, are your characterizations of inner city schools correct...or even your characterizations of inner cities. In other words, is it accurate to say that all or even most of inner cities and inner cities schools are full of immoral, single parented children and parents? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 378
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 03:39 pm: |
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Cynique and all: Actually, i think the essential question is, What is responsible for the life chances of an individuals? If we are to say family then we must has what enables a family to be productive and progressive? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 470
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 06:59 pm: |
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Actually, I didn't say immoral, Yukio. I said, amoral. That's the problem; these kids don't even know what they are doing is wrong. And, no, all people in the ghetto are not as I have characterized them. Those who don't fit my description are the unfortunate victims of those who do fit my description. But the victims and the victimizers all have the same origin. Sooooo, like the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg, whether bad economic conditions give rise to bad personal decisions or bad personal decisions give rise to bad economical situations is a debate that will go on and on. We do know that Life is a state of flux, and when dealing with the human condition, a solution that fits a problem at one point in time does not remain relative at another stage of the game. So, to try and come up with a formula that will work, is wishful thinking. Yet, we might also observe that people who are not bogged down with a lot of baggage do tend to travel faster. And, of course, the great element of luck always figures into the equation. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 379
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 07:03 pm: |
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ok....apologize for the misquote! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 252
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 11:48 am: |
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Yukio:
What is responsible for life chances? Being born in a good neighborhood with good parent or parents and going to good schools and luck--having good character, whatever that is.
This is just general. I know a black doctor's son who drove cadillacs to school every day and wound up a bustout junkie. I know two minister's sons who had everything and wound up armed robbers.
I have known other people who grew up poor in single parent households and turned out to be lawyers, doctors.
I have worked with so-called "problem" youths. The thing that always impressed me is no matter how hardcase they were supposed to be, whether they were killers dope dealers pimps they were still kids when you talked to them. And when you would talk to them and show them you were interested and talk about how important it was to stay straight and go to school etc, they would agree. Then after I had my half hour or hour with them, they went right back out in these streets where they had to do that thing and I went away to my safe home.
It is awful and ugly but a lot of these people are doomed especially if you don't have the wherewithal to get them out of that bad environment.
What I found did it most was when they got shot or some friend of theirs got shot or popped for some big time and this put something on their minds.
But there has been created a generation that sees all this as part of the game. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 472
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 02:09 pm: |
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In a follow-up article to Bill Cosby's rant, NAACP's Mfume Kwiesi was quoted as saying that he agreed with what BC said, but just would've expressed it differently. Some blacks chide other blacks about airing our dirty laundry in public because it gives whites grist for their mill. But at some point the denial has to stop. Wouldn't it be great if the truth would set us free? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 123
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 02:50 pm: |
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Cynique,
Yeah, in a perfect world where public remarks like that would not be applied with a broad brush through out our community and would not give the powers that be impetus to use it as an excuse to cut badly needed funding for already grossly underfunded inner city programs.
In a perfect world the truth would set us free. But this world we live in is far from perfect. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 384
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 04:51 pm: |
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Chrishayden: Yes, they do see this as part of the game, unfortunately. It is important to remember that they are just kids, but their environment is much more complex than the past. And I agree that though a socalled "stable" family structure is better than a single-parent home, life can often though many of us a curved ball. Yet, my point is that a focus on family and communities issues would improve people's life chances.
For what you say, "Being born in a good neighborhood with good parent or parents and going to good schools and luck--having good character, whatever that is," is determined by family structure, on the one hand, and community power, on the other hand...much of what I've been talking about from the beginning. Schools and communities don't become "good" without the denizens activily shaping local politics and issues.
A_womon: Right...we are talking about family structure and governance...the indivdual and their relationship to society...they are mutally dependent, although this doesn't seem the case in presidential elections.
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