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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 193
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 04:14 pm: | 
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This is a question like the old Bill Cosby routine, "Why is there air?"
I was in another discussion where we have got down to that subject. What is Black? What is Soul?
It may seem pretty easy. Surely in this country the establishment has, for a long time, defined it as anyone having even a drop of African blood.
But isn't it a mental thang? I knew this guy in College at the U of I. Well, I didn't really know him because all he did was hang with white folks. This was in the late 60's and to do such a thing during the height of Black Power and Pride was the kiss of death. Black folks used to give him hell (they never beat him up, burned a cross in front of his dorm room, or anything else, though)
Anyway, one time I got off with this guy and we got to talking. He had come up in a small town in the midwest and there were no other blacks in the town. He didn't know anything about black people or hanging with them.
I didn't feel sorry for him, I felt like this guy needed a play. He was not used to black folks (lord knows, I have been black all my life and been around blacks all my life and sometimes I am still mystified by them. Us.)
Sometimes I mystify myself. But anyway that leads me to the question, what is black? What if somebody doesn't want to be black? Maybe wants to say he's from Jupiter or something (like Sun Ra) Is this a bad thing? Sin't it vountary? Isn't that what America is all about? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 236
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 05:50 pm: |
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Firstly, let me apologize...this is anotha dissertation. I'm sorry!
I think this can be broken down to what is "blackness" and who is "black"?
Well, there are so many questions and answers....
The "who" pertains to one's physiology. Thus depending on different national, regional, and cultural definitions, a certain pertain of african blood makes you black. Thus you can be black in the US but something else in south africa or brazil.
The "what" part of the question pertains to the socalled "mental," as you call it, or what i call socio-cultural. This pertains to how one's group, regional, and particular experiences contribute to a specific understanding of their identity.
For example, african american's notion of blackness is different from a nigerians...
Remember, way back when, when an african was angry as well as an african american(s) thought i said that an african wasn't really african nor authentically?...What i was doing, humorously and ineffectively by the way, was questioning whether his cultural understanding of blackness was more legitimate than mine. He said yes and I said no.
He said yes, because africans were/are the original man, and consequently, the first and "authentic" black people.
I said no, because, and this suggests a general answer to your question chrishayden, my notion of blackness(culture/what) as distinct from the people(biological and physiological/who) is a socio-historical phenomena.
1. I said or queried if africa is a continent constitued of many tribes, nations, etc... and we know that africa's civilization spread through migration, then what tribe or groups were the authentic africans? Also, if through centuries the groups moved and created many and diverse cultures, that are similar but yet different, over an entire continent, could his 21st century cultural practices really be "authentic"? I said no, because his culture probably more than likely is not the same culture practiced by the "original man and woman" who I believe were in tanzania long, long ago. His authenticity was really based on the fact that is was on the continent....In other words, like all cultures, his was the product of history, the particularies of nations, and tribes.
I have no hierarchy of blackness(socio-cultural), because it makes sense where i live, as the african's notion of blackness makes sense where he lives. They are all legitimate. I also think this method is best because we as black folk, physiological, may have different notions of blackness and are certainly culturall different, but we still seem to be fighting the same folk, euro-americans and ourselves(colon and condo as well as other blacks on the continent and the diaspora). This doesn't mean that i have no african american pride...but I don't have the chavanism, or at least i try not to, that many of us have: african americans, caribbeans, and africans.
Now, my national notion of blackness(african american) was cultivated and shaped in my and my national groups(african americans) experience in this country. In other words to conclude, what ever blackness is, It is certainly determined by one's history, culture, region, etc....So, I would say that the midwest cat is of african descent, but he is not of african american culture, as you seem to be.
Also, and this time i will really conclude, african american culture is itself heterogenious...determined by region, the particularities of local groups, etc.... |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 237
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 29, 2004 - 05:56 pm: |
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Chrishayden:
damn...i forgot...the midwest cat, I would say that he is black(physiologically) but his blackness (socio-cultural) is lacking. Blackness is something we are raised in, born into, learned, etc...though, I'm sure, some of the culture could even be biological...some have said, but i'm less convinced. |
Kc_trudiva
Regular Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 47
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 08:55 am: |
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yukio:
can you say all that again in layman's terms? you lost me at "what" blackness and "who" black. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 348
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 12:58 pm: |
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Although I attended a predominately white high school, I grew up in a predominately black neighborhood. I later attended the U of Illinois where the black population was very sparse at the time, and having had a chance to observe both cultures, and although I had ample opportunity to integrate, I needed no prompting to prefer my own kind. Why? I think it was because of that subtle mystique we call "soul". It just boiled down my rejecting what I perceived as being square and embracing what I considered hip. Blackness is a lot about being flexible and about making your skepticism work in your favor. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 240
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 04:58 pm: |
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hmmm....
Kc_trudiva:
Scientifically, there is no such thing as "race." In other words, there are no scientific differences among "whites" "blacks" "asians" that constitute different racial groups. There are biological and chemical differences, however, that account for the skin as well as certain diseases among these groups.
Who- black people are understood as people of african descent. Although depending on the country, who is "black" depends on particular history of that country.
What-Here, I was talking about blackness. As Cynique states, blackness is about culture that one usually gets when they grow up among people who express, live, value, and produce that culture.
I took it further by making the point by talking about national and ethnic cultural groups, such as African Americans, West Indians, and Africans.
While we are all of African descent, our culture, though their are similarities, are still different. Africans believe blackness to be one thing, Caribbeans another, and then African Americans another. Indeed, within the huge continent of Africa, of course, there are different beliefs, among the islands of the Caribbean and South America there are differences, and even among African Americans regionally there are differences amongs us. In other words, culture and identity are contingent on history, society, politics, etc....
Consequently, we can have the most afrocentric african american and we will not be "black" enough for an African and vice versa.
Who is the most authentic "black."
I say all and none of us. All of our histories are real for us, and for centuries our cultures has enabled us to resist and even win some battles against oppression. At the end of the day, once you think beyond money, what we are also fighting for is the maintainence of our identity as African Americans, as a cultural group. Yet, cultures must change but ours can disappear. There will always be black people(people with black skin), but whether or not there will be a vibrant african american culture is another thing. There are egyptian people, but their ancient produce culture is something to view in the museum....it is mostly dead. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 72
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 30, 2004 - 10:08 pm: |
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Chris this is just like the who is hip-hop question? "Black" and "Soul" are completely artifical and subjectively applied.
Now that I think about it seems that hip-hop is a term that allows non-blacks to be "down". So instead of trying to be Black you can be hip-hop, and "down", without having to abandon your whiteness, Asianess or whatever... And I don't mean that, necessarily, in a negative way.
There are cold white people who swear they are Black. Anyone "white" enough to "pass" is white, right? - virtually by definition. Being Black is typically a function of how others define you.
Blackness and Soul are not linked. In much the same way you you don't have to be Black to be Hip-Hop, you don't have to be Black to have Soul.
Now Chris, Soul is the ability to improvise, like Jazz (soul music). Soul is making the best of a bad situation like taking chitterlings and collard greens and making them palitable -- even profitable (soul food). Soul is the non-verbal acknowledgment Brothers give each other in this sometimes hostile environment as we pass each other on the street (soul Brothers).
College was an eye opening experience for me as well. Black people who were educated and lived in white environments might as well have been from the otherside of the milky way, as far a I was concerned. Did they have soul -- I did not think so.
Admittedly, I was really too ignorant to get to know and understand those Black folks (I guess the way some African feel about American Blacks).
Now if you never had to improvise and make a bad situation look good, even desireable, can you have Soul? I don't think so. Sort of being a blues singer but never having suffered. Sure technically you could go through the motions, but I'd think you'd find something missing.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 243
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 03:10 am: |
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troy: This is exactly why i separated one's ancestry(physiological/biological) from the culture ("blackness")in which they were reared.
If you understand blackness as a culture, then soul is constitutive of blackness. Being black, on the other hand, is being of african descent. Consequently, white people you have access to african american culture will be more "culturally" black than ChrisHayden's colleague from the midwest.
Part of the culture of course is the experience, which changes but often maintains certain element of the core culture. Hip hop is the product of the late 70s and early 80s...now clearly there are differences from earlier forms of black music, but hip hop, like jazz, blues, the spirtuals, is improvisational, and soul...in blues people, i think, amiri baraka called this the "changing same." |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 74
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 01, 2004 - 04:18 pm: |
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Yukio I believe I'm with your 100% on this issue.
Peace |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 155
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 02:20 pm: |
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This is discussion of the authenticity of one's Blackness is indeed interesting.
Well, I suppose, physiologically, I would be considered a mid-range ‘Black’ person. I am dark enuff so that even Stevie Wonder wouldn’t confuse me for being White. Yet, I am light enuff so that I would be confused with a purebred native of South Africa or Ghana. Although, as I look, there are certain parts of my body that are well, shall I say, BLACKER than others (Ruff! Ruff!).
My politics are all over the place. I am liberal and conservative on so many issues that I would make both Jesse Jackson and Rush Limbaugh flip their wigs. For example, I agree standardized exams are in part culturally biased. Yet I think the SAT exam is probably the clearest, most efficient way for a poor Black girl to prove she’s as knowledgeable as a rich White boy. White schools are better funded/supported than Black schools. But watching twice the amount of TV that White kids view does not help balance the scales. Dick was a liar and cheat. And Ronny was a narcoleptic nimrod. But I’m not sure that China would have open up or the Berlin Wall would have fell had Nixon and Reagan not been US Presidents. And sure it is not fair that Black men be executed at any rate greater than that of White men. But, unless there's proof that those on Death Row - Black/White - are in fact innocent, I say rather than stay the execution of proven Black killers we need to start frying more murderous White boys.
I was born in the segregated South; I was raised and educated in a poor all-Black inner city community. Yet I now possess post-graduate education/certification, own businesses, I send my kids to private school and live in a racially diverse suburb.
I love Black women. I consider Black women to be loveliest of all GOD’s creations. And I am married to a sistah. But I don’t consider a brother who marries/loves a non-Black woman to be a victim of some ambiguous form of self-hate nor is he necessarily sell-out to his race.
Though I hated his @#$% guts, that @#$% Larry “@#$%” Bird was every bit the basketball player that Magic Johnson was. That @#$%ing @#$%.
I love all forms of Black music, be it Jazz, Gospel, R&B/Soul and Hip-Hop. These is NO American music without the Negro. No Country and Rock (White) without Blues. No Inspirational (White) without Gospel. No Pop (White) without R&B/Soul/Hip-Hop. And Jazz is arguably the greatest art form created in over a century. But, were I to be stranded for the end of my days on deserted island with a battery-operated CD/DVD player and lifetime supply of Duracells and I were offered my choice of music from only ONE artist, I would chose for the rest of my life to sip coconut juice while being enraptured by the euphonious rendering of 18th Century Austrian composer Johann Sebastian Bach.
So folks, you tell me...am I still Black? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 294
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 03:50 pm: |
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you are a cultured, uppermiddle class african american... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 159
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 03:56 pm: |
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Yukio,
Thanks (I think?). But am I still 'Black'? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 405
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 07:08 pm: |
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Yeah, Abm, I think you pass the "black" test. And since you're a business man, you should bottle the formula which allowed you to rise above your circumstances and succeed in life! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 299
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 07:28 pm: |
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Well ABM, assuming that you read my post, then you know that I don't limit myself to a United States analysis. Consequently, I say that you are physiologically of African descent, and you are culturally African American, even with your diverse tastes...as opposed to Caribbean and African, for we often have different and conflicting notions of blackness.
Cynique: Like most bottled things, I don't if ABM's success could work for most of us. This country is not in the business of having to great a black middle-class, unless of course them are conservative, then they don't have to worry about that their voting power.
Imagine if the black middle class had an African American consciousness. What would our black neigborhoods look like? Though, I think our black middle class is a bit socially conservative... |
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