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Chrishayden
Regular Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 32
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 11:40 am: | 
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This is the clone of a thread we had going above about the merits of popular v literary work and a thread that I participated in on a discussion site for Black Science Fiction fans.
The question was asked if fans of science fiction, particularly black ones were snobs. It was asked because almost all the members of the group decry the level of programming of black tv today.
Well, somebody likes, say "The Parkers". If we don't are we snobs?
Some of us said yes. I stated that we weren't snobs but that we were generally intelligent, educated people who wanted entertainment that would make us think--challenge us.
I stated that in terms of prime time network tv we were swimming against the tide that most of the audience was tired from work, half drunk, and watching tv to help them drift off to sleep so they didn't want to see anything challenging or that made them think. That is why brainless crap like "Friends," etc is on.
This feeds into our discussion about genre vs literary literature. I would submit that Thumper, Yukio, Solomjones and others who have decried this trend like work that will challenge them. That is quality. That makes them work or think. The average reader does not want to be challenged or to think--he or she is killing time on the bus, or on lunch period, or is curled up with that book trying to go to sleep and does not want to work.
So, they will win. They will get what they want or they will go to tv or video games or such |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 11:43 am: |
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Hey Chris, have you read The Package by Nicklas Maddox and Nea Williams yet? What you think? |
Cynique
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 02:09 pm: |
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An idle mind is the playground of the devil. Keeping one's mind occupied by reading whatever holds one's attention is better than thinking about killing your boss or divorcing your spouse and hookin up with a hottie, or about robbing a bank to pay off your bills. Life can be a bitch. |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 02:40 pm: |
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Got what you're saying that's why you should read The Package |
Bookgirl
Regular Poster
Username: Bookgirl
Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 07:06 pm: |
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We're probably snobs. A friend of mine recently released her first novel and when I started the read I was ready to chuck it after the second chapter; but it was my girlfriend...so I hung in there. Real chick lit and another you go girl effort. Now what do I say to her? She keeps calling and asking; "Did you read it?" |
Anita
Newbie Poster
Username: Anita
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 07:56 am: |
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Bookgirl:
What would have made the book more interesting to you? |
Blkmalereading
Newbie Poster
Username: Blkmalereading
Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 09:33 am: |
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Bookgirl, I hope you're honest with her.
I can't imagine putting my name on a book that will live forever and not giving it my all.
If an alien came down and checked out the 'hot' selling books that are out, what would they think of us as a people? Especially some of the stuff Black writers are shamelessly putting out there.
I can't tell you how many times I'm asked by a complete stranger: What are you reading? I would be to embarrassed to say, oh it's called Buckwild Babies getting Kicked to the Curve. It's about....
I keep hoping that this is a trend and out of the ashes some goodness will prevail. What can I say? Someone told me another man's trash is some one's treasure. Well I have a box full of 'treasure' for anyone who wants it.
I don't know if that makes me a snob. I can handle reading for just fun, a laugh or enjoyment. But I would like it to a bit more than something a Elementary student could put out. Being an author should be such a blessing. It's such a gift. To have the attention of a group of people. It's handing you (the author) a permanent mike. To say something...
But many are stepping to the podium and the message is?
Never thought of myself as a snob, but the bar is lowered, so anyone who wants to read a book with a plot and story line that contains something more that sex, drugs and bad editing is a snob.
It's easy to be a snob in this atmosphere.
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Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 11:09 am: |
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Blkmalerading, you are so right. Our culture already have a name no other culture wants to own up too, and if that's not bad enough we can find it in our bookstores as well. Try The Package by Nicklas Maddox and Nea Williams. These two have created a storyline like no other in their culture. |
Bookgirl
Regular Poster
Username: Bookgirl
Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 03:52 pm: |
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Anita: First I would have loved her to have had a plot other than girl meets boy and they fall in love, go through changes, break up and then get back together and marry.
I also would have liked for her characters to have been more developed, so much was left out about them. I want to care about the folks in the novel.
I also like books that set a mood; give me some details of the setting; describe the city or town; the neigborhood; etc.
BTW: These are the things I said to her when we talked and she agreed with me and told me the next book; she'll allow me to critique. LOL
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Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 84
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 04:00 pm: |
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hmmmmm....I believe people are snobs if they try to force one standard of socalled "literary" quality on literature. In my mind there is commercial and literary fic....and i believe that all the other categories, such as mystery and suspence, sci-fi, etc....can be subsumed under the commercial and literary rubrics....of course a book can possess both commerci and lit. qualities, such as Walter Mosley's fiction seems to.....
As it regards culture...in consideration of my above point, I think it is only fair that black writers produce commercial and literary fic, as all other groups.....culture is a reflection of society, and most societies are diverse...including many perspectives, tastes, and social classes, and aesthetics....in all societies, people love sex and entertainment, so if we were to survey the world, i'm sure you would find a zane and ejd in every socalled culture, as well as a baldwin and a wright...
While, i don't usually read commercial fic, I wouldn't judge it, such as EJD, as I would someone like Packer. Very different writing....I would pay attention to craft, however. There is ways to identify poor, bad writing, and weak writing by evaluating grammar and punct.[depending on the character..of course a doctor will talk different than a thug on the street, though of course the thug could be educated....i think u get my drift...never used that phrase,always though it was something white folk used...i must be assimilating..lmao!], point of view, structure, etc....these are questions of craft, which most anyone can attain if they take a course at their local community college..... |
Thumper
Regular Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:08 pm: |
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Hello All,
Chris: Yeah. Next question. |
Chrishayden
Regular Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 34
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 01:23 pm: |
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Eviana: I never heard of the book or the authors. Do you have any information about them?
Thumper: What kind of snobs are we? |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:18 pm: |
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not i said the cat..... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 102
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:24 pm: |
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Are you self-proclaimed snobs bragging or complaining about being snobs? In the course of your reading have you checked out the definition of the word "snob." And "blackmalereading" shouldn't be so sure that if a crew from Mars landed on earth and checked out what black people were reading that these little green men wouldn't be more impressed with the "semi-literate" than the "literate". It's all about being objective. And there's just no accounting for taste... (Just a little poke with my pitchfork.
LOL) |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:37 pm: |
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Chris,
I don't have any information on the authors, but the book is about the many people featured through either the mail, back of milk cartons or posted in the market with the question over there heads asking "HAVE YOU SEEN ME?" This question has been around for years and it appears that no one seem to have an answer for it well that was until I starting reading The Package. Then when the news of UCLA came out it really started putting things in perspective.
I'll ask you again are you up to the challenge? Read it and see what I'm talking about. |
Thumper
Regular Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 48
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 08:43 pm: |
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Hello All,
Eviana: Ah do you have a stake in this book? I ask because on every single post that you have posted on AALBC discussion boards you bring up this book. Why? Well, I'm going to be honest with you, your little publicity run doesn't make me want to go out and read it. If you're one of the authors, you can admit it. You would get a lot farther with us by being truthful than this game you're playing now. If I'm wrong, I apologize. Is this the only book you've read or do you have another title that you would like to "challenge" folks to read? *eyebrow raised* |
Thumper
Regular Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 49
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 08:50 pm: |
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Hello All,
Chris: I can't speak for everyone, but I realize that I'm a snob. I like to read books that rise to certain station, have standards, no matter the genre. I don't want books that insult my intelligence. I don't want to read books by authors who don't know what in the hell they are talking about. I like books that ain't telling me the upteenth to the tenth power version of the same story that I've read before. It also doesn't hurt that the author know how to construct a complete sentence, and even if he don't know how to spell the words he's using in his book--that he would at least have the decency and commen sense to run the damn spell check. Now if all these things together, and if taken individual, makes me a snob, I'm proud to proclaim my status as a snob. |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 09:55 pm: |
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Thumper,
I accept your apology, because obviously you haven't read the newspaper lately. If you had than you would realize what I'm saying is true. Do I have stock in this book. NO I DON'T. But I do believe in sharing news that might one day save either myself, someone I love or anybody I can. If there were more caring people out there to not only think about themselves but others like it use to be then things wouldn't be as bad as it is today. Where you can get jacked from your car because someone hit you from behind. Know what I mean. When I said I'm going to tell as many people as I can, that's what I mean, and if I offend you by warning you of what's actually going on in the world in which you and I and everyone who reads these posts live in than let me be the one who apologizes. But look in your paper or go online and read about UCLA for your own self. And see if you don't want to tell someone about it. Oh yeah, that's right you must read the book first to see, don't you?
And if this board isn't for warning people as well as discussing what we read then what good is it anyway? |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 51
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 06:47 am: |
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Hello All,
Eviana: Consider us, all of us, told and warned. It's time to move on. |
Lambd
Regular Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 07:50 am: |
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Some of us are snobs, and some of us are complete nutjobs. I guess you have to decide for yourself. I'm with Thumper, even though I never considered myself a snob before I read his last post. I hate the nature of the books that have been coming out lately. All the women seem to have the Sapphire Syndrome and all the men are dogs. All the storylines are basically the same. I don't care if other people read those books, I just refuse to read another one like that. Boy meets girl, boy cheats on girl or girl cheats on boy, couple breaks up, couple realizes that they are destined to be together and gets married and live happily ever after with the kid and the dog and the BMW and thats when I start to dry heave. To each his own. Entertainment is in the eye of the beholder. The Parkers and Friends are pretty funny shows, but I can only take so much of it before I start thinking about breaking out my Smith and Wesson and either shoot the TV or blow my own brains out.
I don't knock people who are addicted to these books or TV shows, they are just not for me. If that makes me a snob, then dadgummit, a snob I shall be. Dub me a snub! |
Lambd
Regular Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 29
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 07:57 am: |
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Cynique---I got a pitchfork to poke you with...And I really don't think Blkmalereading gives a shit what a crew from Mars thinks about what we are reading. They will be way too busy trying to figure out what the spelling and correct pronunciation of his username is....This from a man named Lambd. |
Chrishayden
Regular Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 38
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:57 am: |
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Thumper:
Sorry to break this news to you, but a man who likes greens and cornbread and sweet potato pie and is related to Ethridge Knight is incapable of being a snob.
I feel your pain. Break on back in the kitchen and dull it with some white lightnin' and ribtips (with potato salad on the side)
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Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:54 pm: |
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Thanks Thumper,
For speaking for everyone. I have moved on to Burning Down My Master's House by Jayson Blair. Have you read this one? |
Augustuzziah
Newbie Poster
Username: Augustuzziah
Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 02:06 pm: |
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What does it matter, read what you read and i will read what i read. and if you think that what you read is more important or better written then what i chose to read, well ... I think the important thing is that people read, period. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 05:35 pm: |
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The reason why I'm becoming more tolerant of what people choose to read is because, as of late, all of these correctly-written, properly-structured, well-plotted novels have not held my interest. This is not to say that I'm switching to the sister-gal or hip-hop books but it is to say I'm finding biographies, mysteries, and science-fiction/horror/meta-physical books more compelling. So, as Augustuzziah implies, - to each his own. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 05:40 pm: |
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Lambd, I thought you are my angel, not my devil. Smooches. |
Lambd
Regular Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 08:30 pm: |
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I am your angel, baby. Smooches back at ya! And if you want something different to read, I just flew through a book called the Celestine Prophecy, by a white dude named James Redfield. It is fiction, but it has a sort of 'meta-physical' message. I couldn't put it down until I finished it. Powwaffa stuff! (Greens, cornbread and sweet potato pie sound good to me, Chrishayden. But I don't do swine so season my greens with smoked turkey and leave the cracklin' out my conebred! and for pete's sake put a space in ya' name somewhere!) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 111
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 01:58 am: |
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Why don't you do swine, Lambd? Are you a Muslim???? |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 54
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 06:57 am: |
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Hello All,
Chris: *LOL* So true, so true. You're right, let me go on and get those rib tips with potato salad, along with a couple of corn muffins and a tomato and sit my big butt down.
Eviana: You're welcome. It's not a problem at all. I haven't read Jayson Blair's book, but I plan to. |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:10 pm: |
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Thumper,
Just want you to know I held my breath as I asked you about Jayson Blair, thought you would accuse me of having stock in that book as well.
Have not got far into the book yet, but it seems okay. Will keep you posted.
I mean that's what a book club is for right? |
Lambd
Regular Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 01:19 pm: |
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Yeah, let us know what you think about Jayson Blair's book. I haven't had a chance to read it yet. I really don't care if you have stock in both books. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
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Hello All,
Eviana: There's no accusation concerning the Blair book. See, its the little things that counts. *smile* Please keep us posted on what you think of the Blair book. That is exactly what the book club is for, the discussion of books (notice the "s"). *smile*
Lambd: Always the gentleman. I wanna be like you when I grow up. |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 04:54 pm: |
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Okay guys, so I tend to get a little enthusiastic about something I like. Kill me now or forever hold my peace. The Package is a good book, but Jayson Blair is even better. He is such a liar that I can't tell if he's telling the truth in this book or if he's lying in order to make a living since he is no longer with The Times and his career as a journalist is pretty much over. But anyway on a creative side it's still a interesting read especially the part where he tried to kill himself, he really had me going. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 116
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 10:46 pm: |
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Yes, Jayson Blair did do something very despicable but I can't help but appreciate how he holds his own with all of these aggressive, self-important, white journalists intervieiwing him on his book tour. He articulately fields their questions and they can never corner him. This glib, devious young man obviously missed his calling. He should've been a LAWYER! |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 10:49 pm: |
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Cynique,
You said it. I'm reading his book and I'm like why was he writing in the first place. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 119
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 11:15 pm: |
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Eviana, I'd be interested in reading your take on Blair's book, once you finish it. |
Lambd
Regular Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 08:27 am: |
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C-Neek>> yes. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 121
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:16 am: |
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Yes what, Lambd? |
Lambd
Regular Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 33
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:23 am: |
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Yes to anything you ever think to ask me. Yes, I will call you. Yes, I will love you forever. Yes, I will make passionate love to you. Yes, I will wear your underwear...Ooops, did I say that out loud? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 122
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2004 - 10:38 am: |
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Lambd, I wasn't sure whether you were answering "yes" to the question I asked in a previous post as to whether you were a Muslim since you mentioned that you didn't eat swine. But you have such a great sense of humor and are so free wheeling and so provocatively horny that I can't imagine your being a Muslim. I always found Muslims to be very strait-laced and rigid and somber. |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 20
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 04:56 pm: |
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You know what Cynique I have to be quite honest with you as I'm reading this book of Jayson Blair my opinion of him is not too high. I agreed with you earlier when you said he should have been a lawyer, but he's more of a hussling chameleon who has become whatever was needed out of him at the time to get the job done, even when writing this book. But what I find even more unsettling is the fact that there were people who actually lost their jobs because of his dishonesty and still he has the attitude of poor is me and why is everybody so hard on me I'm just an affirmative action hire who was misdirected and shouldn't have had so much responsibility because they knew that I couldn't handle it with my drug addiction and alcohol problem.
I'm only chapter 7 and it had become a challenge to keep reading because I don't feel the sympathy that he's soliciting in this book.
Keep you posted though. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 101
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 20, 2004 - 06:51 pm: |
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eviana:
Does jb saying thing about his qualifications? I guess what i'm asking through the back door is, Was he credentialized, or was it his drug addiction and alcoholism, though of course it could be a health doze of drug abuse and incompetence..... |
Lambd
Regular Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 34
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 10:05 am: |
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C-Neek, I am Muslim, but I'm not very straight-laced. |
Lambd
Regular Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 35
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 10:07 am: |
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C-neek>>>you said I was 'provocatively horny'...does that mean I am provoking you? Because that was my intention. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 126
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2004 - 09:41 pm: |
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Lambd, why do I find myself wondering if a "provocatively horny Muslim" is an oxymoron?? |
Eviana
Newbie Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 12:21 am: |
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Yukio,
Jayson Blair says he went to the university of Maryland but never graduated. He worked as a intern with The Times and went to work for them a year later, never getting his degree. As a matter of fact in chapter 9 he admits that he was just another black man without a college degree as he was told not to become in chapter 8.
Interesting enough though there was an article published by Gerald Boyd one of the editors who lost his job because of Jayson who states that there is a lot of untruths in this book of his. For some reason Jayson chose to speak on Gerald's mother who apparently died when she was 29. Jayson claims she died because of drugs (which I haven't gotten to that part yet), but Gerald said his mother died because she had sickle cell anemia. Gerald was told that the dead can't be libeled and therefore he's seeking a apology or even more from Jayson Blair for outright lying on his mother and he was told by the publisher, Michael Viner, that he was in full agreement with Gerald and there was no reasonable basis for Jayson to have included the death of Gerald's mother in his book.
And this further adds to my strong opinion that I am now formulating about Jayson.
Keep You Posted Though, |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 02:37 am: |
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thank u much! |
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