| Author |
Message |
    
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 02:04 pm: | 
|
Hey, we let Dr. King's birthday get past without even suggesting some of our favorite books about Dr. King or Civil Rights.
So how about it? What are some of our favorite books about Dr. King or the Civil Rights Era? |
Junior
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 02:12 pm: |
|
"The Autobiography of Malcolm X" is my favorite.
Malcolm X is also my favorite civil rights activist. I don't really ever think about King, but I always go back to X for guidance and contemplation. His book seems very relevant even today.
|
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 09:12 pm: |
|
Hello Junior
We haven't seen you around these boards have we, welcome? I agree somewhat with your post. I care to believe that both men have relevance in their approach and goals towards civil rights. I doubt anyone would disagree to that. However I believe King's methods are championed by the establishment for one major reason, NONVIOLENCE. I could go on and on about this but simply put nothing hurts "the man" more than taking away his MONEY or his LIFE . Take those two elements out of the equation and you've vitually taken HIS POWER. Again I could go on and on about this, the equation is cluttered and disputable. The vote, the school systems, the media and the mind all play an important role yet when his money and his life come into question, things happen. Look at that mess over there in Iraq, we all know that's not about bombs or human rights, it's about POWER & MONEY, period.
Carey |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 09:18 pm: |
|
Junior, in fact I would argue that other men in OUR history have played more important roles in or progress other that Martin Luther King Jr. I raise my hand and tip my hat to Thurgood Marshall and W.E.B Du Bois, thank you very much.
Carey
Carey |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 12:26 am: |
|
Hello Junior
I don't know if Junior's still out there or was just passing through.
You know, that's a little thang with me. ALthough it seldom happens, don't you just hate when you reply to a post and the postee doesn't acknowledge your response. It bothers me most when the postee is the one whom initially requested an answer/reply. I don't know, maybe it's just me and like I said it's not done that often. It's probably done by what someone called a drive-by postee.
Anyway, I was just going to ask Junior if he wanted to discuss Malcolm, Martin, Marshall or DuBois. If so, be forwarned that Thump has a thang about Dubois although he never got back to me on "W.E.B. DuBois A reader by David Levering Lewis, (the one we were suppose to *cough cough* read together). This is a BAB and I damn near got Corbel syndrome from holding it . Anyway, hope you're still around, again, welcome. |
Junior
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 12:42 am: |
|
Hey Carey,
I had two classes tonight. Sorry.
Yeah. I agree with your post 100% I actually think Ron Karenga was a great leader and more "nutritional" than Dr. King was in a lot of ways. So was the great unsung Vernon Johns, the man that King sort of patterned himself after.
King was a masterful leader and politician. But he was so perfect for that one moment in time when Whites needed a buffer like him. King's message does not resonate with me in my life today, but Karenga and Malcolm X and Marcus Garvey are so frigg'n "relevant". They speak to today as well as a hundred years ago.
BTW--I see Mandela as being like Dr. King. I always laugh when South Africans say that "Winnie" is the real heart and soul of the nation, the revolutionary, but Mandela is the peaceful buffer that the Whites needed in order to make a compromise.
Later Gator.
|
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 01:06 am: |
|
Don't worry about partner.
Junior, great comparison, although I know little of the politic of South Africa, I know white folk and they had him locked up for years and his message is reminisant to that of King's, in a large way. (Yes, it changed over the years but yes, he's a great "buffer" <<<<<apropos Junior
I am surprised you know of Karenga and Johns, most individuals your age (assuming you're in college, still carrying "Jr.") would render a blank stare upon mentioning them, although I wouldn't necessarily agree with their/your positioning of them.
Marcus Garvey.....ahh...I have my doubts about him.
Thanks for the holler.
After-while Crocodile. |
Junior
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 01:13 am: |
|
Hey Carey,
Yeah, I'm at Florida A&M.
As for Garvey, I don't agree with his "back to Africa" message, and clearly that was more appropriate for blacks of the 1920's, but I do agree with his belief that black men should own their own businesses and form a black men's network, a "black" economy and teach their sons to run that economy in a nationalistic way. Basically "keeping it in the family". I think Garvey was quite masterful because he was far and away the most "followed" black leader in American history. No other leader has ever matched the numbers of black Americans in the 1920's that called themselves "Garveyites".
I appreciate Marcus Garvey buying a fleet of ships from the British to transport us all to Africa where he planned to build a new African kingdom. Of course his vision was senseless, outlandish. But you gotta give my boy props for buying those ships and for having a plan.
|
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 01:49 am: |
|
Yep, you gotta take your hat off to him for that. There are many variables to his attraction, his support, but my young college friend this old man is getting a wee bit sleepy and when sleep calls at this age you run to it's beckoning.
Florida A&M huh, good choice, stick it out. maybe one day we will be speaking of you! I KNOW you too have a plan, I can just sense it!
To bed to bed said sleepy head.
Carey
Carey |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 04:09 pm: |
|
Everyone had a unique role to play in helping Black people to progress. MLK played his part. As did Malcolm X, DuBois, Garvey and MANY, MANY others.
If anything, it is the scores of Black WOMEN who supported these ‘great’ men and who did much (if not MOST) of the detailed/grassroots work who have been short-shifted by historical accountings.
And although I have serious reservations about how MLK’s memory and legacy has been managed, I see no value in diminishing his contributions to elevate those of others.
After all, this was a guy who bravely and eloquently did what he knew best in spite of thoughts of imminent death dangling in his head for all of his adult life only to then be violently relieved of his concerns...by a fatal gunshot wound to his head.
And Junior, what was so "senseless" and "outlandish" about Garvey’s proposal to return to Africa?
Does because we didn’t go mean we were justified in staying put?
I ask these questions because I can think of SCORES of reasons why we should have gone then...and why we should consider going now.
And BTW: For MANY reasons, I am tempted to argue that Paul Robeson was the finest specimen of manhood to grace the Planet Earth in all of the 20th Century. |
Cynnara Collins
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 10:29 pm: |
|
ABM I don't understand. Why should we go back to Africa when we never been to it? We're Americans.
I don't see what I could do in Africa that I can't do in America. In some ways, the white people did us a favor.
|
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 12:26 pm: |
|
Cynnara:
If you don't want to go back, that's fine. Maya Angelou has a place over there, Stevie Wonder has a place over there, Satchmo said he'd have liked to have gone over, Kwame Toure, Dubois, several other people.
As for them doing us a favor, I wished Emmett Till's mother had lived long enough for me to tell her that, among many others--and possibly yourself the next time somebody white sticks it to you because he don't care for the color of your skin. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 01:01 pm: |
|
Cynnara,
I wonder if when you say that "white people did us a favor" by bringing us to America, do you consider you are indirectly sanctioning EVERYTHING that they have thought about and did to us since we have been here?
See, perhaps unlike you. I have to believe that had African's not been conquered/enslaved by the European, our African ancestors still would have managed to get along quite nicely. I must believe that they would have constructed our own efficient/productive systems of commerce, discovery, politics and religions sans the White man.
Otherwise, if I concur with you, I must logically consider that everything that was done and is still being done to us was/is necessary/just, that it was all part of some great benevolent scheme, and that perhaps we African's should have long since accepted our status as being made its hapless casualty. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 06:34 pm: |
|
Interesting comments, especially the one that White people did us a favor....
ABM: Right, right, right....cultural and generational differences are amazing....I think African AMerican culture is so diverse and obviously, it has change for some....
Cynnrra Collins: Nice Name! Why do you think white people did us a favor? And, are you african american? What age group are you in? 20-30? Where are you from? Either within the US or externally? |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 06:39 pm: |
|
Cynnara Collins(got it right this time): Oh, yeah....Are we Americans? DOes place of birth constitute your nationality? And, do you have an ethnic identity? And why does being "American" preclude us from going to Africa? |
Cynnara Collins
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 09:11 pm: |
|
Yukio I'm not about to get in it with you, but I am black, high yellow, whatever you want to call it and PROUD.
But I am not African. I am American. I am 20 and will be 21 in May thank you very much.
Yes the white people did my ass a favor and I don't like Africans because they don't like me. Not to mention, I ain't no African. I don't know nothing about Africa and I do not wish to know nothing about Africa.
You want to change your nationality go right ahead.
Why is it everytime I see your name I think of that video game character Yoshi? LOL
I'm out. No comment.
|
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 22, 2004 - 11:10 pm: |
|
Sorry, All, but I'm inclined to agree with Cynnara. Africa might be a nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there. Africa wasn't powerful enough to stave off the onslaught of Europe so, to the victor went the spoils. That's the way of the world. And I'm stuck with being a citizen in the most arrogant, ruthless, affluent nation in the world. Oh well. |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 08:34 am: |
|
I'm sorry but statements such as "I don't know nothing about Africa and I do not wish to know nothing about Africa." are what makes Americans a laughing stock all over the world.
Enjoy your ignorance as it will probably come back and bite you on the ass.
|
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:27 pm: |
|
Lurkette, I seriously doubt if that's what makes America a laughing stock all over the world. There are much more ridiculous things about this country to inspire laughter and contempt from around the globe. Even Africa doesn't care if Blacks don't claim a strong connection to the land that sold out its own kind. |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 12:45 pm: |
|
I was talking about the unwillingness to learn about anything that isn't American, not just Africa. And yes, there are other things worse than that. BUT I said "remarks such as this one", not "this is the main or only reason".
"I don't wish to know"??? This is exactly what riles up people in other countries. President Bush being the manifestation of this kind of ignorance. OK then, just keep your eyes and ears shut and don't give a damn bubble girl, just don't be surprised if someone else comes and shits on your doorstep like they did two years ago. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:01 pm: |
|
How do you know I don't know anything about Africa? I merely said I wouldn't want to live there. Could that be because I do something about it?? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:19 pm: |
|
Last line should have read: "Could it be that I do 'know' something about it?"
Also what are you talking about in regard to my door step? Do you have me confused with someone else? BTW, your penchant for name-calling and hyperbole make you sound like a Kola Boof clone. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
|
Hello All,
Cynnara: I ain't going to jump all on you. The "white folks did us a favor" statement, well, that's just twisted. A drop of education is just as dangerous, if not more so, than total ignorance. This country was made great by the blood, sweat and tears of the slaves. And we ain't going to leave. Our ticket to stay has already been sealed and paid for two- or threefolds. If the white folks were so great, they would have picked their own cotton, cleaned their own houses, cooked their own food, and had enough self esteem and wherewithal about themselves to know that they did not need to enslave others who they felt was beneath them in order to make themselves feel better about themselves. But, I'm letting you go. As my Ol' Grayhead told me years ago, just live a little longer. There's still time for you to snap out of it.
Lurkette: You might as well be mad at me too. Because I see exactly where Cynique is coming from and I feel the same way. I don't want to live there either. And if those folks all around the world is worried so much about me, all I can tell them is that my utilities and house note is due every month and they has to be paid. I assume that they are doing the same. If they are not, they need to get themselves some business. Because I could really care less what they think of me, and I'm sure the feeling is mutual.
|
Smarti
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 03:08 pm: |
|
Well Cynique--we must DEFINITELY be Africans then
because we sell out our own kind on a daily basis and have been since slave days.
TOO
I thought you had a lot of nerve posting that comment considering the entire black community, Clarence Thomas, half the NBA, the Cocoaine neighborhoods and the hip hop world of Bling Bling.
Did you ever see that play/movie "The Piano Lesson"?
Yes, we sure must be Africans to the bone Cynique.
Selling out our own kind and ain't stopped.
|
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 03:27 pm: |
|
Hi "Akaivyleaf." (heh-heh)
Selling each other out makes us like all other flawed humans. Africans were human, not divine as many of the diaspora seem to think.
|
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 05:01 pm: |
|
Well then, I see we have started our semi-annual Africa Bashing Tirade (ABT I call it.). Ah! The good stuff never goes outtah style!
I will not senselessly try to dissuade anyone from how he or she feels about our ‘homeland’. But I do have some observations/comments:
First, Sistah Cynnara,
Your views are understandable considering what we all have been bred to see, think and believe. I am almost certain I felt similarly +20 years ago. But if you don’t mind my saying, I consider your comments to those of someone who is still at the very beginning of self-discovery and development. I am almost certain as you learn more, your viewpoint will broaden/mature.
If one deeply considers what you our young, self-described "high yellow" Sistah mean about being happy about being taken from Africa and what Cynique implies about the "victor" and "spoils", mustn’t one logically concede that all of the killing, kidnapping, bondage, beating, raping, and all the other havoc that our people endured was warranted and justified?
And, again applying Cynique’s victor-spoils philosophy, because we are all the progeny of a conquered people, are we then, as many have vigorously tried to make us believe, inherently and irrevocably the inferior spoils due to the children of our father’s captors?
Why is it we proudly proclaim ourselves to be AFRICAN AMERICAN, then wholly resist/resent/disparage our namesake muthalan’, especially when few of us have ever even visited ‘Her’?
And no, I don’t wholly advocate a wholesale return to Africa - I doubt that that is really even possible - as we certainly ‘deserve’ to be here as much if not more so than anyone else.
But I do fantasize that if for some reason we chose or were forced to separate from the Caucasian and made to survive via our own wits and devices, we would do just fine.
Well, at least, I HAVE to believe that. Otherwise, I fear what that says about you and me. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 07:31 pm: |
|
Helloooo ABM. Welcome to the real world.
BTW, the "spoils" I referred to were Africa's vast natural resources. And the people who are proudly extolling themsevles as African Americans are probably not the ones who agree with me... Blacks do not have a herd mentality. |
Katrina Merriwether
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 08:27 pm: |
|
Interesting comments. Fascinating.
Attention THumper:
Couldn't it be that our rejection of Africa is the "source" of our self-hatred? I remember as a kid hearing some Civil Rights leader saying that in order for us to be truly American, we would first have to "redeem" Africa, which they called our "real mother".
What's your take on that?
Just so you'll know. I'm really in the middle ground. CYNIQUE makes a lot of sense to me, because she's not advocating hatred of Africans, she's just accepting our reality and rolling with the punches. We are born here, in another world, and we have not only survived but made giant accomplishments. We are the most powerful and influential black people on the earth. Cynique is right. There's no need for us to erase our real history as slaves and cling to the past with a continent of people who can no longer relate to us.
But ABM makes some really good points about the inherent idea of "inferiority" that both blacks and whites seem to embrace in America. Are we feeding our self hatred by not embracing and "redeeming" the Africans from which we came?
|
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 23, 2004 - 09:24 pm: |
|
Africa....blah...AFRICANS.......blah......black Americans......blah blah...blah blah blah....we are....blah blah..self_hatred..blah.......White people...blah. our blood...blah blah blah...Slavemasters blood.....blah.....mixing bowl....blah blah blah...therefore..blah...consequently....who's on first......wrong page...High Yel'o....blah....feeding self hatred....blah blah....yo' mama......who you calling black........go back........I am American.......blah blah blah.....young blood.....blah blah.....whos blood......who you callin' black.......go back........don't pass go.....wrong game...blah...blah......Cynique....ABM...**Grabing sack*****....blah blah blah.....Giving finger.....blah blah...cyn...blah blah ......cynn...blah...cyni...blah...cya...blah ....cyanide...BLAH BLAH BLAH.....och...blah blah **grabin' yo' sack****blah blah......police! ..bla bla bla...I ain't black....blah.....Yo mama....blah.In summation.....BLAH!....get it....blah...I knew you would....... BAM......BAM? ...BLAH BAM....**pointing finger**....BLAM You, BLAH....Good Book....Blok...blok?..Blah!
Yours Blah
BLOK |
reppskearn
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 02:40 am: |
|
Two of favorite Civil Rights texts are Lay Bear the Heart by James Farmer and My Soul is Rested by Howell Raines. REK |
reppskearn
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 02:44 am: |
|
Sorry...it's Lay Bare the Heart by James Farmer. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:23 am: |
|
Cynique,
Oh then, so you are being intellectually 'selective' in your definition of "spoils".
Hmmm?
Well, I would argue the greatest 'booty' Whites won via their conquest of Africa was the "vast 'human' resources" they acquired therein, which they then wielded as they chose throughout the world.
The economic, spiritual...cosmic capital of people of African descent, especially those brought to America, have had an accumulative effect that is worth far more than all the gold, platinum and diamonds that have been dredged out of the Motherland.
Carey,
Haven't performed ALL of the 12 Steps, huh? HAHAHA!! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 11:09 am: |
|
Carey, your remarks were much more on target than ABM's cheerleading. LOL |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 08:53 pm: |
|
Cynique, I just get so tired tired tired of that back to africa mess. truth be told some of us probably has more of massa's blood in us than kunta kinta....you know I'm right, shiiiiiit, come on now. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 09:19 pm: |
|
Carey,
I hear you. Do you consider yourself African American? And if so, what does that mean to you? |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 09:29 pm: |
|
 Come now ABM, I ain't about to get rapped up in that mess. But if I had to answer the question, I would say I am a black man and I live in AMERICA (you can read into that what you may). See, I hate those little pigeoned-holed titles. Of course you remember when we HAD to chose between Negro or Mexican, what were you then? Come on now ABM, do I consider myself an African American....if that was the only choice I had that best describe me and I HAD to chose one, then hey.......So it would depend on who's asking and why. Okay okay...your askin'....."consider" no. |
CArey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 09:34 pm: |
|
Okay, I'm waiting .....yoooou-who |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 10:22 pm: |
|
Why do you think "black" is a more accurate or relevant description of who you are than is "African American"?
Would we even call ourselves "Black" if Caucasians had not first calling themselves "White"?
"Black" as a racial classication is primarily, if not solely, a response to not being considerd "White"?
Therefore, is THAT in of itself a more valid term of racial classification that one that describes where our ancestry (albiet in part) descend? |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 11:23 pm: |
|
Man, I loved to get with you on this tonight but check this out. I was having a nice little day. I had Marvin on the box, me and him was doing some sanging, you here me, I'm talkin' bout sanging! I just started K Elliott's Book "Entangled" too and every so often I'd stop singin' and get down with Marvin. A couple of times Marvin had me up in her screamin' Like a b*&%8....oh yeah. Anyway, I'd just put some meat on the stove before I settled in for a little readin'-n-singin'. Plus I was washin' some clothe. so my plate was full, I was doin' my thang. While On my way down to check on the clothe is when I thought I'd check the spot and see who you was f(*&in' wit. That's when I saw that little thing for me. So I hit you back and went on my way. Then all hell broke loose. I was just hittin' one of my high notes....me and Marvin I should say, and man alarms started going off all over the house and s*&t. I said, what the f*^% is happennin' now! Smoke was flying all around. ..... Man I'd forgot about the meat on the stove and it was burnt to a crisp. And man it smelt fuuuunkaaaay! So I had to put you on hold and clean that s*^t up. Now am tired, sweaty, and mad. So brother, you gonna have to excuse me tonight cus I just ain't got it in me. Now I ain't runnin' or nothin' like that, I'm just not feelin' like it right now. Oh, I had a liitle somethin' for ya but I'm just going to cool out.......chill.
btw, ol'boys book ain't bad. I'm on like page 90 or so and it's got me readin' on. See ol' boy Jamal, just took his girl, Dream, out to San Diego. The next morning when she got up, he was gone already, out doin' somethin'. So she decided she'd go for a jog but needed something and looked in ol'boys bag to see if he might have one. And what did she do that for. See, Jamal's from the street and she all miss goody two shoes. So when she peeped what was in his bag she damn near s*^t on herself. It's on now cus ol'girl bout to get up in my brotha's face about his s*%t and I knows he ain't goin' be liken that too much. So ABM, I'm going to pass on the thang tonight and get back to this book...... Coo? |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 11:52 pm: |
|
Carey,
Aight, Brothaman. It aint no thang.
Sorry yo steak'em is kaput. But all dat multi-tasking catches up withchu.
Hope you enjoy Entangled. If you do, maybe I'll check it out too.
Nite! (Where did I put my Best of Marvin Gaye CD?)
|
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 02:13 am: |
|
Cynnara Collins:
I said you have a nice name and you make fun of mine and your respond with an attitude. Thats too bad! Thanks for answering some of my questions. It seems that you're having problems with your continental cousins. I hope things work out for you.
Others:
World history is full of histories of conquest, imperialism, and exploitation--some one wins and others lose. Of course, we all are the children of these histories, and within this history we were stolen from Africa to the Americas. This is not an unusual story, but different because of the prominence of chattel slavery, colonialism, and the development of capitalism, which remains the current economic system that organizes the world system.
Within this world system, countries and international entities control and administer resources--raw and human. We are part of this system as consumers, workers, political agents, "races," nationalities, sexes, genders, and classes, and ethnicities, etc......
This conversation pertains this our socalled "race" and ethnicity, which was formed through blood, nation, and cultural. We are of African descent, but we are we Africans? Are we Americans? Much of what i've written so far helps us, for our historical and concurrent experience in the US has created an "black" culture in the US, which has its roots in our cuisine, language, literature, music, dance, etc..., ideologically, it has its roots in our experience as racialized subjects in this country, which DuBois' double consciousness may help us, though it is not sufficient to answer this question of who we are. Not only are we racialized subjects but we have a particular standard of living, and a particular pride about our "blackness," and a unique history, which separates us as an ethnicity(i prefer nation, but some argue that one needs a territory) among the other black nationalities and ethnicities(one of the major differences is that we do not have our own territory, which would enable us to have a truly nationalized culture. This is the reason why we had a civil rights movement rather than a national movement, though some of us consider our movements a national and decolonization movement).
All of what i say accounts for these remarks on this thread, i believe. We are such a nation within a nation that we defend our notion of blackness against others, ie africans, caribbeans, etc....we all have our own notion of blackness, and we all want to be right, but since we all so arrogant in our blackness we can not concede that we are all right, and we are all black, but different....we learn, african americans the hard way, that blackness doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. And africans and caribbeans learn, the harder way, that blackness does mean that you're subhuman in this country. We all have lessons to learn, but as many of your post suggest, especially Cynnara's, that the personal and the differences in the cultures( especially the cultural arrogance)could prevent black people from really learning from one another, whether we visit the continent or not. |
RED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 02:31 am: |
|
Exactly Yukio and I thought Carey's comments were even more hateful of our "origins" than Cynnara's.
He did however make me realize that we as Black Americans have progressively become filled with more white blood since slavery ended--than when it was in session. Obviously, we have chosen to become less and less black over generations and the careless, blah-zey attitude that fills Carey's post makes it clear just why that is. To me, his dismissal of the issue as serious and his amusement at being more linked to our slave master's blood than to our African ancestors was representative of the majority general view among us. We don't want to be associated with Africa and "too much" black ness because we'd rather keep building our association with our slave master's blood, which according to Edward P. Jones's book we secretly believe is superior just as America in general does. I get the distinct impression that Carey, Cynnara and Cynique see nothing dishonorable about that, although I"m not indicting them. I'm just making an observation.
Carey's post sickened me, because while I do see myself primarily as a Black American of African, Indian and White ancestry, I also feel it necessary to acknowledge and "appreciate" the African in me--in that way, I feel connected to my ancestors. I feel I am loving them. I've been in a foul mood all night over this thread, but glad to come back and read your post which gives us hope that someone is adequately grasping the enormity of our ongoing problem with SELF.
Thanks Yukio.
|
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 03:07 am: |
|
You know, after reading Yukio brilliantly stated post, I thought I'd read up the line and she exactly what I was missing. I find it sometimes interesting to read the rebuttals/responses, prior to reading the origianal posts. I couldn't wait to read what inspired the tongue lashing of Cynnara. You know what, although she said a no-no she didn't really get a chance to explain part of her statement. We have to remember she's young and emotions (at that age) sometimes clouds rational thought. I'd be curious to know what "favors" she was thinking of. Maybe she's thinking on the line of living in a country with clean running water and fresh fruit in the grocery stores. Maybe she's referring to a chance for a black women to field positions like C Rice? Hold up before you start ratta tat tatin' on the keyboard. All "I am" saying is we jumped on her with such vile and venum that maybe she felt attacked. And it's possible that after she'd given an explaination you might still have responed in the same way. BUT.....BUT, I don't think we asked her in a nice way what she meant by her statement. See, all you old crusty lounge chair debator can't wait to chop off a head or two  ......Okay, I admit, I've been quilty of the same. And let's face it, the more you do this thang we do, the better you become at keepin your foot out of your mouth. Now I didn't say we never insert a toe or two but we are more conscious of trying not to do so. I think I've said all of that to say: Y'all ought to be ashamed of y'all selves for running that po' child away like that. You know what I would have told y'all to do......yep, the pink part
Again Yukio, that was ahh.........Girl you da bomb! I think I'm going to have to put Cynique down......are you married ? |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 03:14 am: |
|
See, I did a boo-boo, Yukio DID ask her .......but not until others had slapped her wrist. Yum-yum, this toe jam sho' is good. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 03:26 am: |
|
Well Carey: I don't think you're incorrect about Cynnara's treatment, but since I DID ask the young lady questions, and even though i NEVER attacked or disrespected her, I would expect some respect, which she did not give me....so lets hope she returns and listens, closer next time. Cynique's position is much more refined than hers...i learn so much from all of you. I'm sure she could too! |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 03:44 am: |
|
Please RED, you can suspense with all that drama. See, that's what I'am talking about. You have the nerve to tie my post with "hateful". Is that what you think of all individuals that don't have the spritaul ties to Africa as you "want us to believe you do....please. Who's words are you quoting? YOU said: "we don't want to be associated with Africa and "too much" blacknesss because we'd rather keep building our association with our slave master's blood, which according to Edward P. Jone's book we secretly believe is superior just as America is general does. Now WHO said that? YOU DID. Come on RED, don't speak for me or assume you know what I'm thinking based on some other's opinion. You've got a lot of nerve. And you got sick. You should have for letting that foul mess fall out of your mouth. I said nothing of the sort. My thought were more addressed to "going back to africa" if you would hav ask. so we want to associste more with the white man's blood becasue of our hatred. There are several ways to "acknowledge the african blood in oneself without going "back" to Africa. Please refrain from telling me what I feel....Okay. I will refrain from telling you what a stupid remark you've made. "Secretly believe"....you need to check yourself. Is "Red" you name or your color", Oh I forgot, Your more associated to your blackness than we our so you'd never call yourself RED. HUH RED?.....Please. Just listen to yourself. You would have done better asking us what we meant by our statements. It sure does'nt have anything to do with what you "read" by Mr. JOnes. You've got alot of nerve. |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 10:44 am: |
|
This is a "da bomb" conversation yall having and I love it. But I had to go to sleep. I can't stay up till 3 and 4 o'clock in the morning anymore. Just one observation -- colored/Negro/Black/African/African American/people of color sure not being made the way they used to be. |
RED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:01 am: |
|
Carey I stand corrected and I apologize. I obviously interpreted your post the wrong way. I certainly didn't feel good reading what you had to say, but I apologize to you.
Yes "RED" is my color. I'm a redbone. That's exactly why I didn't feel good reading your happy remarks about having more "white" blood in our veins than African.
Again, I have no intentions of fighting with you. I respect your explanation and accept it.
|
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 12:38 pm: |
|
The late Louis Lomax who a very outspoken black writer once said something that stuck with me down through the years. He was no simpering Uncle Tom or accomodating moderate, mind you, but was a very progressive activist. I distinctly remember the statement he made on a talk show after returning from an excursion through the motherland. He shook his head and heaved a sigh as he uttered the words: "Thank God for slavery." Africa is a vast continent of great beauty and diversity. But is also a place of greaty poverty and disease. It is hot and humid and fly-infested and. And the great tragedy of it all is how its corrupt leaders exploit and betray their own people. Of course the same thing could be said about a lot of countries, including America, but why would I would want to jump out of the frying pan into the fire? I had a friend who spent some time in Nigeria and while there, was invited to a wedding which was to take place in a small village. He was very excited, looking forward to seeing a tribal cermonial rite. Instead, the bride wore an white wedding dress and veil which she'd worked long and hard for to be able to afford and the groom wore a tuxedo. Go figure. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 07:14 pm: |
|
Sis E: What did you mean by the observation, "colored/Negro/Black/African/African American/people of color sure not being made the way they used to be."
Hmmmmm....
Well Cynique, I hear ya loud and clear. Your comments say much about this conversation on the continent and African Americans. I'll use your comments as a way to address some of the issues, though i'm in no way suggesting what you position is, which i assume is that you're not happy here, but you would be even unhappier in Africa.
NOw- African Americans have benefited from this country's internal exploitation of the black labor and especially the expropriation of the indigenous populations' land. And we have also benefitted from the external exploitation of global and resources; these are some of the benefits of our citizenship. These rights and opportunites, in other words, are the product of internal and global colonialism/imperialism, though, of course, this is not different from any other country...this is why this country is so hated, for it is arrogantly dishonest and exploitive.
We are acculturated to these conditions, opportunies, and resources, and of course these things are part and parcel to African American's rendition of nationalism. Hence, "Thank God for Slavery."
These very conditions under which we reside in this country are responsible for the historical immigration of Europeans and people of color..this country is rich!
And being rich, this country, of course, has political and economic ties to everything under the sun, so that US culture, for good and bad, is part of Africa, Asia, Latin America, and is often represented as bad but useful if you want to improve your living conditions(materialist), while others actually believe the US is not only useful for its technology, education, and resources, but that it is political more viable...in ideation and practice.
I have to say of course, that US corruption is much more sophisticated than African and other poor continents, since our wealth and external exploitation enables people here to have a superior standard of living than most places in the world. Nevertheless, we all know that this is not a democracy, politicians are liars, that our black/african american culture is a public enemy. In other words, this country's wealth which was/is criminally expropriated enables this country's political system to be more "efficient" and socalled democractic...we all know, or at least those who have read a little on these subjects, that a goverment's stability and efficiency is mostly dependent on its independence and wealth, these conditions of wealth and independence are products of the economy and the military...it is no surprise that US soldiers can be found everywhere around the world. |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 08:01 pm: |
|
Yokio, I respect your mind and your conversation. You and many of the others on this thread, including Carey, are some thoughtful, intelligent brothers and sisters.
Now. My thoughts. When Africans were first brought to the West, particularly the United States, they were members of tribes/nations from the Motherland and, more than likely, racially connected to their own tribes. As time went on, and what we see today, is that those persons who are the descendents of those first Africans now have a variety of heritages, from French to Anglo Saxon to Jewish, Native American, from the Asian countries, and so on, and are found in a range of skin colors.
And although nobody should have to do the physical labor that enslaved people had to do, they surely were able to last longer than most of us could if we had to do the same work today. We are not made the way the people of earlier African ancestry were. We are not as strong and we don't have the ability to handle the kind of physical work, nor able to deal with the people who would be bossing us around. I don't think modern folks (well, I can think of one ethnicity) are made the way other people of earlier ancestries were, either. Obviously our ancestors did not have access to modern medicine and the benefits of what we have today. But I betcha most of us could not do the work they had to do. We may be taller -- and fatter -- but I betcha we could not do the work that even our great-grandmothers and grandfathers do or did. Just imagine with our modern intelligence if we also had their strength and common sense.
I write this not to offend anybody, but I also have to give some respect to our Elders, particuarly the ones who came from the continent of Africa.
Peace and blessings.
|
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 08:52 pm: |
|
Hello Red
I feel sorry and guilty for putting you in that predicament. I would have gotten back with you sooner but I've been busy, sorry. Part of the blame is mine. I sometimes say things without thinking how they might offend or be taken by others. After reading your last post I can surely see how my post might have caused you some emotional anguish, I am sorry. Please accept my apology. As often has been repeated on this board, this medium is wanting in it's ability to convey the exact meaning of what one is trying to say. This limiting vehicle or limited method of exchanging ideas is compounded by the fact that we often do not say what we mean in a concise manner. Thanks again for your post/apology and please accept mine. Again, I try to use humor to express my feelings in a lighthearted manner and sometimes it obviously does not work. I do not wish to fight with you either.
You are an oddity of sorts on this board. For you to take the time and admit that there could have been a communications problem or just to apologize period, speaks volumes about you......WELCOME!
I see you got a job as a camera man in THE MOVIE, girl you comin' up, espeacially having just been released from prison
Excuse me Red ....... Now is there anyone else out there that wants to get something off there chest for calling me names..........Thump? The doors of the church are open. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 09:26 pm: |
|
Don't the first 2 letters of AALBC stand for "AFRICAN AMERICAN"?
I see myself as being in part African wherever I am and whatever I do. Sure there are other elements within me that are evident. But my African elements are most prominent. Whether or not I reside on the Motherland continent doesn't change the core of who/what I am.
This is not about where we live. This is about what lives within us. Are we really a people? Or are we simply a meaningless amalgam of loosely connect parts that can be easily severed, then destroyed?
Because history has proven that people will either made to stand together or to fall apart.
Should and must we return to Africa: Probably not. (Though, if the political trajectory of the US continues as such, more of us might seriously begin to consider emigrating elsewhere.) For a myriad reasons, that could prove torturously impractical.
But it is interesting how impotently we, truly history's most resilient and resourceful people, view ourselves within the context of a hypothetical return to Africa. We helpless cite the dreaded disease, famine, archiac/turbulent social, economic and political systems, etc. (much of which is often overblown by racist/ignorant non-Africans).
Because maybe I am being hopelessly optimistic (And I sure their a legion of you who would enjoy scolding me for such.). I happened to believe that if African American en masse returned to the Motherland, the entire continent would improve for the better.
Hell! If we could make it HERE under the conditions we have had to endure, we could make it ANYWHERE.
We work, study, dance, sing and pray, write/read our books, mourn/commemorate the past, struggle through the present and hope for a future all as Black and/or African American people. Yet, to many of us, the mere mentioning of our country our ancestry invokes such revulsion.
There is something cosmically contradictory there.
If being Black and/or African American doesn't REALLY mean anything for us to label ourselves and to live as such, then why are we all wasting our time? Why don't we all just utterly mate and merge into the dominant Western culture and be done with it? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:25 pm: |
|
It's because we are resiliant, ABM, that blacks will morph into whatever it takes to survive in a country that is made up of hybrids. Time marches on, and you can't stop the inexolerable tide of change. |
Cleveland Ohio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 12:06 am: |
|
My my how soon we forget that Sister Maya Angelou lived in Egypt 8 years and in Ghana another 8 years. **She originally went on a 3 week vacation and simply could not leave.
I visited two countries in Africa. I didn't really notice any "flies", Cynique. I went to Kenya in 1984 and to Gabon in 1987. Both were beautiful and pleasant beyond belief. I was surprised at the warmth and innocence of the Africans. I've been all over Europe and I've been to Tokyo, Peru and the Philipines.
Never have I had as wonderful a time as I did in Africa. It is bar none like being in the garden of Eden.
I would not live there only because I would miss American t.v., sports, the latest music, all my family and friends in the U.S., etc.
I do however know of quite a few black Americans who have moved to Africa and wouldn't leave if you threatened them with death. One such person is my brother who purchased a very lavish villa for all of $16,000 in Gabon and lives like a King because the cost of living is so low. Top of that, the Africans worship African Americans in the Western part of the continent. I am going to Senegal in 2005 where my niece (brother's daughter) is getting married to a very wealthy and well educated aerospace engineer who treats her like a queen and has moved her to Dakkar for "courting".
It's not all bad, folks.
I hope my comments added some balance.
|
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 12:52 am: |
|
Africa is a huge continent. So one country differs from the other. To me, unless people go back to their roots then it's irrelevant. It's like a French American returning to the continent of Europe and visiting Germany and saying how much he likes it there. I won't quibble about Africa being fly-infested, but I've heard that from several sources. Nevertheless, there are 2 sides to every question and it is important that someone like you who has been to Africa provides us with another point of view. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 02:05 am: |
|
Sis E:
You've made many points, so let me address several.
I'm not sure of your point of stating that Africans were more resilient. Is this suppose to make us respect them more? I'm not sure if they were more resilient, but they certainly were resilient and loved life and their own people, which is why, i think, we need to maintain that connection to them and where they came from.
Now, prior to the forced migration, African socalled tribes, ethnic groups, etc... were also the product of many heritages. Africans, don't see race as US folk do, so that being mixed could be mixed with other tribes within Africa....remember, many of the Africans in West Africa migrated from the East, and this movement produced new african cultural and tribal groups. In other words, no one, not even the first Africans in 1619, were pure(This of course, is the same in europe).
And finally, a true heritage is something that you live. It is not blood, but if you don't live it then, in my opinion, it is not really yours. In other words, Africans, though they see African Americans as phenotypically black, see us as euro-Americans, because that is what organizes our thought process, our cosmology, etc... BTW, i'm speaking in general terms. Sophisticated Africans, however, will be able to tell the difference between our socalled African American culture and US mainstream culture....though they may not have the language, the conceptual tools, to explain it as most of us don't have today.
Cynique and ABM:
It is interesting how this is really about living conditions. The way Cleveland Ohio characterizes Kenya and Gabon is as if it is a resort, though many of these countries'economies embedded in the resort and leisure industry, especially African Americans trying to return "home."
We have come to a point where African americans are returning to the continent not for any ancestral respect or cultural revitalization, but purely to live the life of luxury as "Kings" in Eden; we are in other words, exoticizing Africa, because we are so culturally different and ignorant that we have become different people, a black nation without land, peons of the US. |
Up All Night
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 05:44 am: |
|
My Dear Yukio
I know you mean well, but it seems to me like you're going to make it extremely difficult for others to post if you continue to analyze their every word AND then render a 3 page dissertation. To a degree it appears as if you are building a re'sume'. This is probably not the case however. Sometimes we speak in general terms to our friends and they return our comments with a respectful nod or any one of a number of responses letting them know that we are politely listening.
The fun can become strained if your fellow postees feels their post will be overly scrutinized. This may not be the case but on several occassion I've noticed your post have been greeted with replies such as, loosen up or I'll get back with you next spring,. tight laced.
I read Ms. E's comment as a general reflection on life and you saw differently. When our concerns become more about structure and wording as apposed to exchanging fun little ideas and thoughts, the fun could escape.
I believe I once read on this board someone chiding the moderator on his words usage. The moderator, Thumper replied that this is an informal exchange and he is not concerned with crossing all his "T", or something of that nature. In other words lets have fun. |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 07:20 am: |
|
Oh dear. My last post was quite rude and I apologise.
Cynique and Thumper, please note that I never advocated a return to Africa. I have been to Nigeria too Cynique and it is not somewhere I would opt to live.
My bug bear is the comment about not wanting to learn which incensed me sufficiently to lose my temper and post something I shouldn't have. Sorry.
Reading it back it doesn't even make much sense.
Cynnara just said she wasn't interested in Africa from which I perhaps mistakenly inferred that she has a problem with learning about other countries. Sorry about that also. I shouldn't expect everyone to take an interest in Africa just because I have.
Shame-facedly yours,
Lurkerette
Cynique, comparing me to Kola Boof though?? Ouch! I don't know if I should feel flattered or besmirched?!?! |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 10:30 am: |
|
Dear Up All Night,
Thank you. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 12:59 pm: |
|
It's cool, Lukerette. We all overract at one time or another. And it's so easy to misinterpret things on the board because we are reading a person's words instead of hearing them. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 02:00 pm: |
|
Sis E and Dear Up All NIght:
Thanks for the comments and giving me the heads up. Sounds like a discipling! Neither of you take this the wrong way, for "I know you mean well." I didn't comment on word usage, but on an fundamental flaw that african americans make, which is to see Africans as pure representations of who we once were(or were suppose to be). I'll be brief, for i don't want to prevent anyone from responding. This romantic authentication of Africans in thought and belief leads many African Americans to romanticize Africa, and question their own identity because they see themselves as water-downed versions of real Africans. Even worse, conservative Africans will tell African Americans that they're not really black, as if Africans are our(African Americans) standard or template of blackness. We therefore hate them or spend our lives trying to become African. I'm not saying that this is exactly what Sis E meant, but it was something i saw and for the benefit of my opinion and knowledge, i shared not just for Sis E, but for anyone and everyone interested, posters or non-posters.
Thank You
|
Samuel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 02:12 pm: |
|
But Yukio, we that are AFRICAN are most definitely your standard/template of Blackness.
We are the first black people. I don't see how YOU can designate yourself as the one to dictate to US.
|
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 02:42 pm: |
|
Are you serious...this is why some african americans get caught in this web of authenticity...consider these questions and then look in the mirror and tell me if you're the first.
My dear samuel, as you know, africa is a continent, and also as you know, no tribe is pure. Furthermore, which "african" is the template, which region, nation, which tribe....is it yours or is it another in another country, or another region? Now, with all of this diversity within your huge continent, which is the route do i follow? Should i go to the congo or the ghana, ivory coast, what? who? where?
Also, you are not the first, your ancestors are....and where do we begin? DO we begin with the first homo sapien, well what if it wasn't in your country, are you not black or are you of mixed african heritage...if this is the case, how could you be a template, for you are an amalgamation of other tribes, Are you not? You are a 21 century african...you are an entire continent or a nation or tribe...i'm sure you don't even like everyone in your continent, so how can you really be an African? You are not even a template of your nation or tribe. Are you living as your ancestors did? If not, then you're another, but later, version to the socalled first.
Finally, is the formula, African=black or african=the "original" but not the only kind of black person? If you're not living the way your ancestors lived then you're not black either! Right?
I'll pick the latter. I don't equate any first with blackness...neither should african americans nor africans or caribbeans.
|
Samuel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 02:52 pm: |
|
Rubbish! Yukio.
Africa is a continent and all of us who are black and born from any one of those tribes is an African.
That is our way.
Would you take away the Russian's right to define himself? Would you tell the Britton or the German that he has no right to define himself, even by use of prejudicial means?
We who are African have standards and "templates" that are thousands of years old, that supercede mere issues of race mixing.
WE...not YOU...will define and decide who is one of us and who is not.
I hardly think a nation of people that hates black people and hates Africans as much as your progeny does is up to the task.
Your American arrogance is reeking, child and it is not amusing nor is it wise.
You sound like a fool. Who of us from Africa asked you what YOU equate or what you FEEL?
We are the blackest, most authentic BLACK people on earth. What idiot would agree with you that we are not? Ask yourself that.
Rubbish!
Rubbish!
Rubbish!
|
Samuel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:02 pm: |
|
Furthermore, Daughter Yukio,
With regard to the issue of "color" and African standards for "Africanness"--this is the one issue that all Africans, from Tunisia to Libya to Ethiopia to Ghana to South Africa and the entire continent agrees on and has but one ancient and still abiding rule.
Black people are Black. Mixed people are Half-Caste (or colored) and all others are either Berber or White (white can be either Arab White or Caucasian). It is very simple, our standard. The blackest of the black is the most African and the most authentic. That rule applies ANYWHERE you go on the continent of Africa.
You are the one misguiding people with false information about MY homeland.
In Sweden, the Whitest Swede is the most Swedish and is more Nordic than say an "off" White Dutch. You understand now?
|
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:26 pm: |
|
Yukio wrote: "I'm not saying that this is exactly what Sis E meant, but it was something i saw and for the benefit of my opinion and knowledge, i shared not just for Sis E, but for anyone and everyone interested, posters or non-posters."
No, that's not what I meant, Yukio. I'm at a loss to see how my words gave you such a vision to see what wasn't there. I also try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt and try to appreciate their opinions and comments. But you know what? This stuff is getting too deep for me. Like I wrote earlier, thanks again, Up All Night.
|
Samuel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:41 pm: |
|
My darling, Cynique, I must rebuke you here.
More Africans died fighting the Atlantic Slave Trade than took part in selling their brethren. There were a few Kings who sold millions and there was nothing that the masses could do about it.
But more than 20 African Kings and Queens waged all out war against the Atlantic Slave Trade. Have you never heard of Katanga or Nzingah or Ambi or the many others?
No, you haven't because American History is selective and when it comes to Africa, the story that fits the white man's mouth is the only one told.
YOUR country is the richest land on earth due to the enslavement of yours and MY people. What riches does Africa have to show for all this? And how could African Kings have overcome the white man's GUNS any better than you did?
You Black Americans constantly mention being sold out by a few powerful men but you never, not once, ever mention the millions of Africans who fought against the slave trade to save THEIR CHILDREN.
You should not be this old and say such narrowly thought things, Cynique.
|
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 03:54 pm: |
|
Samuel,
So then, based on what you say, are most or all African Americans a "Mixed people" of "Half-Caste (or colored)" status/stature?
And if that is what you view us to be, then how if at all could (or even should) you and I interact/relate?
I am always amazed and saddened by the level of anger, suspicion and resentment that seethe between Africans and African Americans. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 04:16 pm: |
|
Samuel, you sound like a wise man, and your wisdom will serve you well if you will consider that it is too late for things to be anyway other than how they are. Africa's children are America's adults. We grew up here and our envoirment exerts as much influence on us as our heredity. We will always be conflicted but, for me, the call of Africa is not loud enough. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 04:45 pm: |
|
All:
I'd rather be Thabo Mbeki than R. Kelly. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 05:35 pm: |
|
Hello Samuel
Welcome, your input is a breath of fresh air. It is natural for "use" as "African American" to become defensive when someone challenges our "blackness" or way of thinking. You are correct we have been brainwashed in a certain degree. I also agree with your rebuttal of Yukio's statement saying you are not the template. My God, if not you then who? Your statement:
Samuel
Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 02:52 pm:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rubbish! Yukio.
Africa is a continent and all of us who are black and born from any one of those tribes is an African.
That is our way.
Would you take away the Russian's right to define himself? Would you tell the Britton or the German that he has no right to define himself, even by use of prejudicial means?
We who are African have standards and "templates" that are thousands of years old, that supercede mere issues of race mixing.
WE...not YOU...will define and decide who is one of us and who is not"
Samuel those statements says it all!
Thank You for stopping by, Welcome.
I also understand your anger. If I was born and raised in Africa from african ancestry, I too would be perturbed. For someone to tell me that I was not a template of an African under those conditions, yes I too would be upset.
Yukio, I still do not think you understand what Up All Night and Sis E. is trying to tell you. not only did you not accept the wise suggestion, you continued to tell Sis E. what SHE meant. The way I read the post is that everyone does not want their every thought analyzed and paraphrased FOR THEM.
Sis E. correct me if I am wrong, please. |
Samuel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 06:11 pm: |
|
Cynique, a person can only be what they know of. This is why I have no expectations of you to be anything other than American. It is your way--it's all you know. Just refrain from telling "white" lies on Africans. Have that much respect for your claims on blackness if nothing else. That was my point, because your comments were as meanspirited and as imperialist as any white man's, but alas, you learned what you think from him.
ABM, Micheal Jordan is a black man. Whoopi Goldberg is a black woman. MOST African Americans,mixed or not, are BLACK, and by their faces and hair, we can see they are predominately still African--we can see this by tribal features, which run very deep in your faces.
Black (in Africa) is a COLOR. Not a culture. Hausa or Bantu is a culture.
Africoidesse is mostly ancient common sense. A half caste person is "biracial". A "colored" in Africa is "biracial" or "multiracial" (the singer Beyonce is a good example of a multiracial/colored African--but SADE is a Half Caste). Many Ethiopians are light brown with wavy hair, they refuse to be called Black. They will only answer to Ethiopian. If you stress color, they then resort to--"I am African." These Upper Class Ethiopians call themselves multiracial when outside of Africa, but the vast majority of Ethiopians, the lower and middle class masses, are the color of black ink with very thin noses, flat buttocks, bony hands and bodies, outrageously tall.
The relations between Africans of different hues is just as friendly or just as hateful and problematic in Africa as it is here in the U.S. Ethiopians make fun of Nigerians. Ghanians do not like to "mix" with Ethiopians or Arabs, but will accept a nearly white Black American. Senegalese love to mix with all three--but not with Ghanians.
The only good thing is that we have a "blood liquor" (West Africa) or "blood berry" (East Africa) or "birth right"--a connecting spirit--determining that in order to be African, no matter where you are, you must be a direct descendent of an African tribe. In this way, no caucasian can ever be "African" and this is also why African Americans are still African due to an obvious and dominating amount of tribal blood. It is the lack of "language" and "culture", however, that makes some Africans deny the African American--but embrace the Jamaican or Haitian.
The culture matters more than the color.
An African like Smokey Robinson would be called a "colored" person. There is too much White or Arab blood in him to be called Black. But he would still be family and still be loved as family. I remember the Fire Witch pointed this out to you months ago. Without adequate value placed on our blackness and tribal affiliation--our children would just become Arabs and call themselves "Black?" for convenience--as African Americans do.
Much of the anger, suspicion and resentment between Africans and African Americans comes from the fact that most African Americans are ashamed of their origins and do not want to be forever connected to it. As well, like your European step parents, you expect strangers to be LIKE YOU.
One only has to look at how easily you forgive the white man and particuarly the white woman of slavery--yet hold it against ALL of Africa when we were just as victimized and conquered as you were. In Africa, particularly my part of it--the West, the African American is looked up, emulated and greatly beloved. It's only when we get here and see that you are really Europeans in black skin that we become distrustful.
The hate for our mothers and what they look like--dramatized in the films, books, media created by African Americans--adds insult to injury, because back home, it is our mothers who miss and cry over African Americans the most. What a shock to come here and see that she is so despised by these "lost ones" she whines over incessantly.
It's all I have to say on the matter, alas I fear I've said too much as it is.
There is nothing wrong with any of us. We are moving along with the Sun.
|
Samuel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 06:15 pm: |
|
Carey, I have posted here for more than a year. I am not new. But thanks for the welcome.
|
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 08:03 pm: |
|
Thanks, Carey. My original comment was a simple paraphrase of the saying, "They don't make em the way they used to," and my goodness, up jumped the debbil. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 08:50 pm: |
|
Hello All,
Samuel: Well...*LOL* I know you've said that you're done talking about this topic. I understand. But there are a couple of things I have to address and if you don't reply back, it's cool.
Samuel, you said: "Much of the anger, suspicion and resentment between Africans and African Americans comes from the fact that most African Americans are ashamed of their origins and do not want to be forever connected to it. As well, like your European step parents, you expect strangers to be LIKE YOU."
My reply: There are those of us who are ashamed, and for them your statement is true. I can only speak for myself, and I am not ashamed of my African origins. I just believe in being real with it, I don't feel that I should fall on my knees and worship Africa. I don't put Africa on a pedestal. I see no need to. I don't feel deprived that I don't know which tribe I'm from, or that you have a "culture" and I am not jealous nor do I feel the least bit slighted because I can't lay claim to that same "culture". My journey may have started in Africa, but my HOME is here. Very much a son leaving his father's house to build his own. My energy is devoted to the upkeep of my own house. But that should not be taken as being "ashamed" of my father's house.
Again, you are correct that some of us have "forgiven" the white man, but we can't seem to forgive Africa for our enslavement. The operative word here is "some". Not all of us have forgiven the white man. If you believe that, you haven't been looking in the right places. Second, I guess we want Africa to own up to sin that was committed against us. There's no need to try to shift our glare from Africa to the white man for slavery, because believe it or not, he shifts the blame from himself to Africa. "If it hadn't been for those "African Kings" letting me take you all, I wouldn't have done it." Needless to say, I ain't falling for the shifting blame okey doke from either party. There is no need to claim us or anything that we have accomplished. For the irony of the whole thing is if it hadn't been for Africa allowing the white man to take us, we never would have reached those heights. This isn't the lost and found department. You can't own what you threw away.
Oh and about my blackness; as you said that Yukio can not define yours, you or whoever the Fire Witch is, sure can't define mine.
My only thing is to get folks here to see and understand that we had all that we needed to survive and thrive here. Folks who constantly longs for Africa, always seem to me to ignore all that we have accomplish here, in the land of our enslavement. What we achieved here is something to be proud of. I am always proud of all my parents who came here in chains. I am not lost. I am where I am suppose to be. My ticket to ride has been bought and paid in full. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 09:06 pm: |
|
Thump, It's about time you showed up, I was beginning to wonder about you, I can go to sleep now. Hey I liked your post. Your citing of the optimum word "some" did indeed need to be addressed. Yep, the shifting of blame was/is lame.
Good post Welcome back youngblood. |
Samuel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 09:12 pm: |
|
I am confused again. Now with Thumper.
Who asked you to fall on your knees and worship Africans? Or to go to Africa? WHO ever asked you to do that?
Certainly not me.
I expressed my acceptance and kinship of African Americans. But find it unfair to keep hearing these hostile put downs of Africa and its people, and especially from African Americans, who if nothing else, owe some measure of respect to their ancestors who were indeed PURE Africans.
For that reason alone you could find something positive and "superlative" to say about your homeland and your own blood.
I never asked anyone to worship Africa, return to it or even mention it. But as an African, you might understand why I would be annoyed at hearing about "flies", "rampant poverty" and all the other ills that the white man puts his MEDIA camera on.
Who ever said you were "lost"? I have chosen to live in America in case you haven't noticed. My ticket is paid in full, too.
What in blasted tarnations are you speaking about?
___________________
But I will say this, and expect your vile with full force. You Black Americans are very nasty and arrogant towards African people. You're always trying to pick a fight and defend your embarrassingly world famous self-hatred. Instead of trying to bond and understand other blacks of the diaspora with sincerity, you have this attitude that we owe you something more than we owe our selves. We have customs--we do not smile in public and yell at people across the street--so you take our demeanor to be a cold shoulder, we are simply being orderly and watchful. You are very unfriendly people--unless it's a white person, then you grin and dance like circus performers. Many of us, the Africans, we are tired of your nasty rude ways and your blatant head jerking protestations of self-righteousness.
Your accomplishments in this country is the only thing that makes us proud. Not your insides. And whether you like it or not, we shall ALWAYS have the right to disapproval or approval, because you are OURS no matter where you go. Your dramatics in the face of geneology are nothing more than laughable!
|
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 09:12 pm: |
|
Hello Carey,
Man, I am always here. *big smile* I was simply reading and enjoying the posts and the many perspectives. |
Samuel
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 09:17 pm: |
|
"lost ones" is a reference that African WOMEN use to describe the children that were stolen from them centuries ago. It is not in reference to anyone living today--as being "lost" in a negative way.
It is a term of endearment, the same as calling them "angels". In Church in Africa, the WOMEN will always insist that prayers and songs are sung for the "lost ones". The African woman has a hole in her heart for her lost children.
Perhaps if she were white, you all would care.
|
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 09:24 pm: |
|
Now Now Y'all. Damn, it seems like we are doing a whole lot of fighting lately. But, I guess it jsut has to be. And to tell you the truth, each time someone rebutts in anger.....I generally understand. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 10:22 pm: |
|
Hello All,
Samuel: Yes, I can understand you being upset about the negative or false images of your homeland that is always broadcasted by the media. I am very proud of my blood. But, Samuel you said, "Your accomplishments in this country is the only thing that makes us proud. Not your insides. And whether you like it or not, we shall ALWAYS have the right to disapproval or approval, because you are OURS no matter where you go"
My reply: Aaaah, NO. I don't think so. Samuel, you have to take the bitter with the sweet. You asked me, "Who asked you to fall on your knees and worship Africans? Or to go to Africa? WHO ever asked you to do that??" Why you did Samuel with "we shall ALWAYS have the right to disapproval or approval, because you are OURS no matter where you go".
You don't have the right to approve or disapprove what I do or say. I am not asking for your acceptance. I am not seeking it, longing for it, desiring it or even wishing for it when I blow out the candles on my birthday cake.
Thanks for explaining "lost ones". Funny, what do the African MEN have in their hearts? No, Samuel, I ain't buying it.
Carey: I agree. I guess folks are just passionate about their views. |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 10:44 pm: |
|
Samuel: You must know that while you're pointing that finger there are many more pointed back at you. As much as you think that Africans shouldn't be put down why are you doing exactly the same of African Americans. There are just as many "lost" Africans in Africa as there are in America. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 11:59 pm: |
|
Samuel, I do think you are trying to build a bridge of understanding instead of a family rift. There is just a breakdown in communication. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 12:03 am: |
|
All of the opinions express here are informative and valid. Thanks Samuel for providing a perspective that is often lacking.
But find it interesting that folk who have a shared ancestry, who have been made suffer many of the same problems and indignities can not put aside some of the squabbling and work towards some reconciliation.
We are speaking a lot of absolutes here when the truth is there are layers and textures to ALL African people that manifest themselves in/with different ways, times and relationships.
I too have had problems with some Africans. But I also count some among my most ardent supporters.
Actually, my 2 college mentors were Ghanaian and Nigerian. Most of the AA students found them to be very curt, domineering and irascible SOB's. But I quickly discerned that once they could see I was serious about what he was trying to get done, those African brothers were MORE 'down' for me than ANY of my African American professors/administrators (with the exception an African American sistah).
I think a lot of Africans (and other non-AA's) think that AA's are often shiftless and unmotivated. I think many AA's think African's are aloof and arrogant. Of course in certain situations, this may be true. But more often these opinions are incomplete, biased, if not now right false. But the only way we may begin to resolve these discrepancies if we stop immediately presuming the worst of other guy/gal and try to appreciate the other's perspective.
'Cause the truth is that 'round deeze parts, we probably are catching fairly equal, though maybe different, portions of Hell.
And foks, this ain't just about who did what 100's of years ago.
This world is getting smaller and smaller by the day. And governments, industries and GUNS go where the money/talents/skills/resources are.
For example, we are fighting a war in Iraq at least in part over oil. But what is seldom mentioned is that African has some of the largest oil reserves on Earth. And much of those reserves have been scantly explored.
So, yes, maybe now Africa doesn't appear to rate highly on our personal and professional agendas. But 5 - 10 years from now, WHO KNOWS? |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 05:27 am: |
|
Hello All,
OhmawGod, I never thought that I would see the day, much less be alive on it, when ABM would try to play peacemaker!! Why, I'm feeling faint...
ABM: That sounds all well and good...all that is missing is some violins, a campfire, and every holding hands and singing Kaum ba ya (sp). Let's be honest, there is very much a failure to communicate. Yes, we may have similar skin tones, hair texture and other physical characteristic but we are very much strangers. Whether AA believe it or not, we do come from a different type of culture than Africans. Look at this little dialogue, where Samuel believe he was being respectful, I took his tone as being a parent chastising a child. And when I said my piece, he took it as being disrespectful, I thought I was being truthful. All this could be attributed to that old saying, Its not what you say but how you say it. I think we all believe or hope that we should see each other and fall into an instant brotherhood or something. That's not being realistic. We have been seperated for too long. We have to get to know the other, step outside the box a bit and not expect the other to know, or play, by the rules of our culture.
The family rift is real. And in order to heal it, we must recognize that it is there. |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 08:26 am: |
|
Thank you Cynique. You are a gracious lady :-)
All - re not forgiving the Africans - isn't the reason for this that it is much harder to forgive a betrayal perpetrated by family?
Chris Hayden, why Thabo Mbeki? His HIV policies are deplorable. (I know he has relented a little now, but things are still far from perfect) I don't know much about his other policies and I'm curious why you would pick him. How about Samora Machel (leaving aside the fact that he's not with us anymore) |
Let's Get Serious
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 11:38 am: |
|
Hi All,
I've been down with the flu, but got back just in time for a real doozey here!
Thanks Thumper for bringing some much needed common sense regarding "emotionalism".
But Uh, Lurkette--Samuel was right when he said that many millions more Africans fought against the slave trade than the few powerful Kings and their soldiers that gave in to it.
How can you say the "family" betrayed us when the vast majority of the family were not only against the slave trade, but went on to spend 300 years colonized, brutalized, raped and beaten in their own land?
Whites people hung us from trees and had picnics while doing it, routinely raped our mothers and legally declared us 3 fifths of a human being.
You smile and hob nob with white people all day long.
You obviously haven't thought this through, lurkette, anymore than a white person does. On that, I do agree 100% with Samuel.
It's ludicrous for us to befriend, marry and cohabitate with whites but hold a grudge against most African people for what 3% of their people did. Especially since the same was done to them.
|
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 12:14 pm: |
|
Not me sugar, I didn't say any of those things. In fact, I didn't get involved at all in the back to Africa debate. Well, not much, other than saying I wasn't going to tell anyone where they should go and live. |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 12:20 pm: |
|
Oh sorry, I see what you mean. You were referring to my remark about family. Okay, I will elaborate on that. What I meant was that some AA's will feel much more bitterness about the fact that some Africans were involved in the slave trade (pls note I said SOME) which is viewed as a betrayal. Whereas from the white people they don't expect any better. I hope that makes it clearer.
|
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 12:46 pm: |
|
Thumper,
I recognize and appreciate there are significant communication incongruities between African and African American. But I will repeat what I stated in my prior post:
"...the only way we may begin to resolve these discrepancies if we stop immediately presuming the worst of other guy/gal and try to appreciate the other's perspective."
We must begin some mutual exchange empathy from where the other is coming from. That doesn’t mean we will ALWAYS agree and sing African/Negro spirituals together. But if more times than not, we can say to ourselves, "You know, I don’t like/understand the way "Samuel" or "Thumper" does things. But I know him to be a good/sincere man and companion. So, I am going to give him the benefit of the doubt, a chance to explain himself or at least a chance to apologize."
I know we will likely always rub against each other’s grain. But you know what, that will likely occur whenever one person deal with another from a different background. Still, most foks, no matter their origins, manage to do okay...when they believe they have some mutual benefit to achieve.
So I suppose there in lies the question: Do we see ANY benefit at all in coming together?
Because until the answer to that question is a resounding "YES", both the African and the African American will likely continue to squabble over miniscule parochial matters and struggle impotently against the REAL source of our problems.
lurkerette,
The truth is MOST African Americans DO NOT adequately know African's role in perpetuating the European/American slave trade. So, rather than haphazardly blaming ALL of Africa, maybe we should begin to more thoroughly enlighten ourselves about what REALLY happened. |
RED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 01:06 pm: |
|
You're right ABM.
I've seen blacks bend over backwards to "fit in" with Chinese or Koreans. Both groups can be very racist and nasty to blacks, not friendly in the least, but the black person will chalk it up to--"I must be patient, they're from another culture"--and they support and adore these Asians.
I went to North Carolina last summer and there were so many blacks trying to LEARN SPANISH so they could get in the good graces of the latinos. You see it in N.Y., black folk bending over backwards for Puerto Ricans, Asians, European foreigners. Giving them the benefit of the doubt.
When it comes to Africans, Jamaicans, Haitians or anyone BLACK from a foreign culture--I've never seen anything like the turned up lip of a U.S. black, the dismissal, the PRE-judgement. Ethiopians, miraculously, do not get the cold shoulder from American blacks, although they are the Africans with a definite prejudice against us.
I agree with Randall Robinson's assertions on the subject. I do think we harbor a degree of prejudice against people who are very dark and PURELY represent our beginnings. We certainly do snub the West African (our kin) while embracing the Ethiopian. And don't let one of them silky fine Egyptians come around. Our eyes sparkle and we smile like it's christmas.
BTW, Samuel. I did not think it was right of you to refer to a certain person as "Fire Witch". I have studied a lot about West African culture and I know exactly the scorn and damnation you were unloading by that title. It isn't fair and it isn't accurate. That "person" is a brave, intelligent fine African woman in my opinion. I initially didn't like her at all, but I have now come to see things differently.
Let's not attack racism but uphold sexism, Samuel.
|
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 01:42 pm: |
|
lurkerette:
Samora Machel is not with us anymore.
Thabo Mbeki hasn't peed on any 14 year old girls recently, and his statements about AIDS I can hear in any bar in St. Louis, but if you don't like that one, how about I'd rather be Desmond Tutu than Rev. Ike? |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 01:47 pm: |
|
Samuel:
Black is a state of mind.
And your statements while true of some of us are not true of all of us. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
|
Interesting comments...this seems like the discussion Kola, cynique, and I had many, many moons ago....
Hmmmmm....let me respond to Carey, first. Later today, this evening, tomorrow, I'll respond to Samuel(maybe not). Much has been said, and i haven't carefully read all of the posts. This is an interesting thread...I apologize for being verbose, that is all...I will work on that. And I'll attempt to stop being "teacherly." This too takes time. Most of the other criticisms and comments that have characterized my posts are, however, inaccurate.
Carey: I appreciate your post, but it completely misrepresents my posts as well as my general position as it relates African Americans relationships to Africa. I respectfully ask you to reread my posts as a unit, not singularly, for I try to be consistent throughout my comments as it relates to themes, content, etc....
I'll quote one of my posts prior to my engagement with Sis E and Samuel for starters. This, I hope should contextualize my comments as it pertain to Sis E’s and Samuels’. My general purpose in this entire thread was to promote reconciliation, and I guess I hazardlessly appropriated Sis E’s comments to talk about the general tension within the African American community and the larger black community, inclusive of Africans and Caribbeans. In other words, my post had less to do with the entirety of Sis E’s comments(i see this engagement much bigger than her and myself) and more with my desire to address a serious problem that has been and continues to separate our many black communities. Though i have yet to read the entirety of these recent exchanges, it is clear that the intent and tone of my post both represented what had gone on earlier in the thread and anticipated is going on now: Tension, misunderstanding, arrogance, etc... These tensions, I believe, arise when we get into questions of blackness, purity, and authenticity. Please, if you have the time and desire, to read my past posts and this most recent dissertation within the context of this quote(January 25, 2004):
"We(african americans) are such a nation within a nation that we defend our notion of blackness against others, ie africans, caribbeans, etc....we all have our own notion of blackness, and we all want to be right, but since we all so arrogant in our blackness we can not concede that we are all right, and we are all black, but different....we learn, african americans the hard way, that blackness doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. And africans and caribbeans learn, the harder way, that blackness does mean that you're subhuman in this country. We all have lessons to learn, but as many of your post suggest, especially Cynnara's, that the personal and the differences in the cultures( especially the cultural arrogance)could prevent black people from really learning from one another, whether we visit the continent or not."
Carey you wrote:
"Yukio, I still do not think you understand what Up All Night and Sis E. is trying to tell you. not only did you not accept the wise suggestion, you continued to tell Sis E. what SHE meant. The way I read the post is that everyone does not want their every thought analyzed and paraphrased FOR THEM."
I wrote:
"I'm not saying that this is exactly what Sis E meant, but it was something i saw and for the benefit of my opinion and knowledge, i shared not just for Sis E, but for anyone and everyone interested, posters or non-posters."
In other words, i appropriated Sis E's comments to reflect and reiterate upon the problems that have emerged between African Americans and Africans that have manifested on this thread and within the black community. In other words, I placed them in the context of THIS general discussion, which is representative of the historical fissure within the African American community concerning Africa. The tone of my post have been of reconciliation In fact, the nature of my post was to circumvent this entire exchange, which emerged once Cynnara made her comments.
This is Sis E's comment:
"As time went on, and what we see today, is that those persons who are the descendents of those first Africans now have a variety of heritages, from French to Anglo Saxon to Jewish, Native American, from the Asian countries, and so on, and are found in a range of skin colors."
My error was not telling her what she meant, but trying to explain something that was not asked of me. I used the comments not to tell Sis E what she meant, but to comment on the how some Africans see African Americans as mixed black skinned white people. In other words, some Africans see us as Oreos. Never did I suggest that this is what Sis E was saying or meant.
1. I explained that Africans are not pure...no one is pure.
2. That some Africans see us as Oreos and others differentiate us from whites, though they still may not consider us "black."
Also, if you carefully read my post to Samuel, I'm making the point that there are many notions of blackness, and especially that African Americans should not have to acculturate Africans ways inorder to prove to Africans and ourselves that we are black.
Consider Samuel's ARROGANCE:
"But Yukio, we that are AFRICAN are most definitely your standard/template of Blackness.
We are the first black people. I don't see how YOU can designate yourself as the one to dictate to US."
1. Samuel states, if I'm interpreting him correctly, that Africans are our template of blackness. In other words, if we don't follow their program we are not really black.
2. He suggests that since Africans are the first black people, I need to follow them. In others words, I interpret, follow your parent! Otherwise, you’re disrespecting yourself!
First of all, I never attempted to tell Africans what they should do. Instead, I have stated that we are ALL black people, though we are continentally and culturally different, whose arrogance, as illustrated by Samuel's post to me as well as Cynnara's earlier comments, causes us to clash! I pointed the finger at ALL BLACK PEOPLE AS COMPLICT in these conflicts. I argued that we if can circumvent this conflicts if we respect different notions of blackness, rather than creating some hierarchy!
Finally Carey, I make the point that there is no essential African. That there are many nations, tribes, and cultural groups that constantly develops and devolves so that new tribes and nations emerge. This is the nature of history, and if I'm correct then tribal, racial, and ethnic identities change over time, which means there is no one authentic African identity.
Again, I apologize and will work on these dissertations that I’ve seemingly have written!
Cheers,
Yukio
|
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 03:43 pm: |
|
BTW, Up All Night and Sis E:
Sis E: I apologize. I approriated your comments not in order to tell you what you meant, but to engage the general discussion. It wasn't about you, and i should have addressed it appropriately. My comments and reading of your comments and then response pertains to my serious and ever-present concern about black people:african americans, caribbean, and africans. My comment, Up All NIght, was not about fun, but a response to the problems in our black community, the miscommunication and miseducation, the cultural arrogance that is endemic to ALL BLACK PEOPLE.
Again, Sis E, the post wasn't about you and i shouldn't have addressed it to you. Sorry for the confusion. These subject is serious in our community, and i sought to discuss the value and authenticity of all the versions of blackness!
|
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 05:29 pm: |
|
Hello All,
Man, is this a big thread or what?? I'm enjoying it. I just wanted to be sure to tell Yukio something, Baby, listen, as Billy Joel said, "Don't go changing, to try to please me". If you express yourself better by writing the length of posts that you do, please continue to do just that. If folks don't want to read it, they can scroll past it. I'd much rather you be you. *smile*
|
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 05:36 pm: |
|
I'm rereading the post again, and I'm sadden by the seriousness and fearful of the impossibility of irreconcilation.
Posters:
Black people, of Africa, Caribbean, and the US, all have a variety of definitions of blackness. All are valid, and all are correct for their individual cultures, for these definitions of blackness are produced by these cultures and embedded in their material, social, political, and cultural history.
An African notion of blackness wouldn't work in the US; It is not our lived experience! Whether or not one accepts being socalled "mixed," if we confused ourselves with anything other than blacks we would be lynched and raped and we were. White people would laugh, and say,"they stupid think he aint white!" and the police would say, "Look like a nigga to me!" In other words, African Americans' notion of blackness is embedded in our particular history in the US(slavery, jim crow, neo-jim crow). We have always focused on race, but it is scientifically proven that there is not such thing as race, though racism is real, living, and kicking strong!
In Africa, as He Sleeps illustrates, african americans' notion of blackness wouldn't work in Africa. This is all that i have said. I am guilty of speaking the truth to cultural arrogance, then so be it!
Samuel stated:
"Africa is a continent and all of us who are black and born from any one of those tribes is an African."
I agree!
Samuel stated:
"We who are African have standards and "templates" that are thousands of years old, that supercede mere issues of race mixing."
This is true absolutely true. I don't believe i said race mixing, I did say mixed African heritage.
samuel states:
"WE...not YOU...will define and decide who is one of us and who is not."
I never tried to define you, and of course you should decide how to define yourself, but you should treat African Americans with the same respect!
Samuel states:
"I hardly think a nation of people that hates black people and hates Africans as much as your progeny does is up to the task."
Well, since you claim that you're been posting here for a year, you should know that i consider myself a New World African. In other words, i've never hated Africa or Africans. Your comments misrepresents my posts and many other African Americans.
"Your American arrogance is reeking, child and it is not amusing nor is it wise."
Where is the cultural arrogance, on my part? Am i arrogant because i don't believe that Africans are a template for African Americans to follow and that i don't believe that Africans have an ownership on blackness?
"You sound like a fool. Who of us from Africa asked you what YOU equate or what you FEEL?"
I'm arrogant? I know you are but what am I?
"We are the blackest, most authentic BLACK people on earth. What idiot would agree with you that we are not? Ask yourself that."
Well, i'll not call you an idiot or a fool, but you are a 21 century African. Be patient and read carefully. My initial post to you made the point that on your continent there are many, many ethnic groups, tribes, nations, etc..., throughout your thousands of years of cultures, there have been so much mixing of black heritages that there is no authentic African.
You're talking about the continent, i'm talking about people, groups, and cultures within the continent over time, not as a monolith as you're rendering your own continent(thousands of years as you say...well if this is true, and indeed it is, then the real authentic african is long gone. Now there are varieties of Africans, varities of Caribbeans, varities of African Americans). |
Let's Get Serious
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 06:28 pm: |
|
Hey Yukio--
I don't think Samuel in any way described Africa as "monolithic". He pointed out the ways in which Africans identify themselves and race in general.
As far as Africans being the template for blackness. I agree with Samuel.
I have lived in the North of the U.S. most of my life and so has my wife, but we both feel that we are SOUTHERNERS and so do both of the migrated Northern families we come from. We cook southern black style, talk southern, etc.
Still, I would not claim to be more representative of a Southerner than the guy who actually lives in Alabama or Tennessee.
I have come into contact with many, many Africans and I notice that what Samuel says is true. They do indeed consider people with "black skin" to be black and people without that skin to be "other". I have also noticed that Berber and Arabic people of North Africa do acknowledge the dark black African as being more "authentic" as an African. Even the Ethiopians consider the dark black people of their country to be more "authentic" than the ruling elite.
I agree with Thumper, however, about the notions of us being forced to overly-relate to Africa or to be too connected with emotional stirrings.
We are not Africans and we are doing great as ourselves. As a southerner, I come from a very rich, dignified black culture that has nothing to do with Africa.
|
Let's Get Serious
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 06:38 pm: |
|
As someone who has been to Africa, Yukio, I agree with this statement by Saumuel:
Consider Samuel's ARROGANCE:
"But Yukio, we that are AFRICAN are most definitely your standard/template of Blackness.
**Sorry Yukio, but after having been there and seeing first hand that people in Africa are not nearly as "mixed" as American television portrays them, I agree with Samuel. Only on t.v. is the continent a mixture of different racial makeups. But in real life, I saw nothing but BLACK, BLACK and MO BLACK. LOL
The lightskinned and mixed people I saw over there were risen above the masses and lived separate lives from the black masses. They are not at all united. Only the Black masses are united and by tribe, not color. The only time I saw the tribes unite by color was when lightskinned people came along, then they saw themselves as Black as opposed to being "naked" (naked meaning--person who are light). The Africans that I encountered seemed to worship light skin. In Kenya they call light skin--"t.v."
|
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 07:08 pm: |
|
Let's Get Serious and Others:
I'm in apologetic mode, so bear with me. If i misrepresent you comment, then please explain. Otherwise, i'll respond to your misrepresentation and understanding of my posts. I apologize to others, but now i'll focus on word usuage since LGS responded to me!
You stated:
"I don't think Samuel in any way described Africa as "monolithic". He pointed out the ways in which Africans identify themselves and race in general."
Now, since Samuel was responding to my post, which was not about the Continent or race but Blackness, you should consider that i focused on mixed black heritage, which means that different culturally different black people mixed! If you believe in race, then that would be understood as intra-race but inter-heritage mixing.
You state:
"As far as Africans being the template for blackness. I agree with Samuel.
I have lived in the North of the U.S. most of my life and so has my wife, but we both feel that we are SOUTHERNERS and so do both of the migrated Northern families we come from. We cook southern black style, talk southern, etc.
Still, I would not claim to be more representative of a Southerner than the guy who actually lives in Alabama or Tennessee."
Right, this is certainly correct. Yet, you identified a US regional identity(southern) and you identified particular states, and finally you identified and a black style of cooking (i would call this african american cuisine). I do believe that a black southern similar but different from a black southern. Notice i'm talking about region(south) and socalled race( black and white).
You have not talked about blackness in this quote, only region, states, and a cultural cuisine.
You stated:
"I have come into contact with many, many Africans and I notice that what Samuel says is true. They do indeed consider people with "black skin" to be black and people without that skin to be "other". I have also noticed that Berber and Arabic people of North Africa do acknowledge the dark black African as being more "authentic" as an African. Even the Ethiopians consider the dark black people of their country to be more "authentic" than the ruling elite."
Yes, many Africans do consider people with black skin to be black(i've said this already!). And again, you're correct Berbers and Arabic people consider dark black Africans to be authentic. There is not disagreement, here.
My post had nothing to do with what Africans think about themselves. It had to do with the fact that I am a black person(socalled race) as are Africans, but I don't believe nor will I allow a person to tell me that my blackness(state of being, related to my cultural experience) is invalid if it is not a culturally African.
In other words, it is a question of culture not necessarily skin, although many africans wouldn't consider many of us biologically black. This is they're right, but it is also my right to define myself, NO?
Again, you last post is about mixed "race" people. My comments pertained to mixed African Heritages...this is a big difference. And the purpose was to make the point that biologically there is no authentic African or any continental, national, or ethnic identity, regardless of what africans, african americans, jamaicans, etc.....think! |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 27, 2004 - 09:21 pm: |
|
Yukio, apology accepted. Thank you. |
Yukio
Newbie Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 02:07 pm: |
|
Sis E:
Right back at cha! |
Yukio
Newbie Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 29, 2004 - 03:22 pm: |
|
Good, interesting book...
Freedom North:Black Freedom Struggles Outside The South, 1940-1980, editors, Jeanne F. Theoharis and Komozi Woodard. |
|
Email This Page