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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 09:56 pm: | 
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First, is there a difference between "Hip Hop Lit" & "Urban" or "Street" Literature? Or is it all the same thing?
At any rate, the books on this page http://books.aalbc.com/urbanstreet.htm are some of the most popular and best-selling books in the street genre.
K. Elliot's page is the most popluar author profile on the web site. Bad Girlz by Shannon Holmes will likely be a January bestseller as it is currently leading all other book since January 1 2004.
I see people on the subway reading Thugs and the Women Who Love Them by Wahida Clark. This book by many accounts this is a hot book.
This whole genre is heating up. My sense is this is will be bigger than the "You-Go-Girl" trend started in the last decade.
Here are the top 10 book for the first 18 days in January (Amazon sales only) look how many books fall into the category of Street/Urban Literature
1 - Sister, Sister
2 - Gettin' Buck Wild : Sex Chronicles II
3 - Bad Girlz : A Novel
4 - The Five People You Meet in Heaven
5 - A Call to Conscience: Mlk Unabridged
6 - Baby Momma Drama
7 - Chocolate Flava : The Eroticanoir.com Anthology
8 - Everything But the Burden : What White People Are Taking from Black Culture
9 - Gangsta
10 - The Known World
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Hand Raised
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 10:35 pm: |
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I would classify Walter Mosley's books as "URBAN/Street". Just as the all white Jewish novel "A Tree Grows In Brooklyn" also falls in that category. The book "West Side Story" and Ann Petry's "The Street" go right along with it. Chester Himes and even Richard Wright are Street.
But "HIP HOP" is directly related to rap music and the culture that evolved out of the music, the clothes and out of the 1980's and beyond. I would however agree that Hip Hop is the child of "SuperFly", "The Mack" and the whole Pimp Mentality of the 1970's. It's also just as destructive...as Sister Souljah so casually and stunningly revealed in both "No Disrespect" and "Coldest Winter Ever".
Hip Hop is also an alternative to the Civil Rights movement and the Black Power movement. It's more inclusive, less race oriented and it has become a world culture. Unfortunately, it also demonizes and stereotypes black people. It especially marginalizes women in general and black women in particular.
You mentioned on another thread that 70% of black kids grow up in out of wedlock situations. As opposed to 20% of black kids in 1968. So I would argue that Hip Hop encourages men to "chase the cat" and not make "roots". Almost every single video shows a male having 5 to 10 "hotties". The monogomous lovesick relationships of the infectious Motown Groove Records are OUT where Hip Hop is concerned.
Notice that this generation's musicians have not produced a Marvin Gaye, Curtis Mayfield or even really a Barry White (who wrote all his songs about his wife, Glodine) "stylistically" or for "artistically".
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:17 am: |
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I understand the author of "Bad Girlz" got a six-figure advance for his book, and in the acknowledgments, he thanks the people from Simon and Schuster for not changing anything about his book which I also hear is rife with comma splices and other glaring errors. Hip-Hop lit does seem to be the wave of the future, like it or not. The only solution seems to lie in encouraging young people to diversify their interests and recognize hip hop for what it is; a walk on the wild side. |
K Elliott
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 12:05 pm: |
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I think the Street fiction/Hip Hop Lit is here to stay and people are going to keep buying it because the stories are action packed, Granted some of the writers aren't the best writers in the "Critics" opinions but the what sells books is a good story and everything doesn't have to be totally realistic but is the the story plausible. Meaning could this really have happened this way. I feel that we are making tremendous progress in terms of reading and writing as a race. Some customers have told me that my book has started them to seek other books to read. Some kids as young as thirteen and fourteen have read my book and love it because they love the characters and they come alive to them as opposed to somthing more literary based that they probally wouldn't be able to identify with. I am proud to be an AA author at this time and I am proud that we can be pigeon holed anymore we have range in our literature. Some people love ZZ Packer but some readers sould prefer Sistah Souljah. Not even fifteen years ago we only had a handful of authors that we could chose from. I think the Street Lit can be a steping stone for kids. Of course the same twelve year old that reads the street stories is gonna be older one day and his or her views and perceptions of the world is gonna change and the taste in Literature is gonna change. I grew up on Hip-Hop music loved it KRS-1 and PE and Tupac, like a litte Jay-Z and Biggie, but now I very rarely listen to Hip Hop. Do I dislike it? No but I've grown and I appreciate other music. Finally I would just like to say keep reading and writing BLACK FOLKS |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 01:08 pm: |
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Hand Raised,
I think maybe you should ‘lower’ your "Hand" to use to flip through a few history books.
Hip Hop is not a "child" of "SuperFly", "The Mack" and the whole Pimp Mentality of the 1970's! Take a look back at founders of Hip Hop like Melle Mell, Grandmaster Flash, Curtis Blow, Run DMC, Sugarhill Gang, etc. Those brothers’s were NOT affecting pimp/playah behavior. And HHM was a 10 - 12 years old before all that crazy stuff crept into the music.
Ice T (who really was a pimp), Snoop Dog and those other late ‘80’s, early ‘90’s wannabe bada$$e$ West Coast rappers brought a lot of that faux pimpin’ crap into Hip Hop.
At its genesis, present and future; Hip Hop Music is about creating some slammin’ beats/lyrics to rock to.
And Black men started chasin’ "cat" LONG B-4 the 1st Hip Hop beat...broke. In fact, many of yesterdays/today’s Hip Hopper that you criticize are the "product" of a lot of prior generations’ "cat" chasin’.
Can anyone say...Disco, "free love", "the pill", LSD, abortion, etc.?
All of that stuff engendered/encouraged irresponsible behavior among American adults, and ALL of it PRECEEDED the Hip Hop generation. Again, Hip Hoppers are not the Devil, they were BORNE from him.
In the infancy of HHM, Motown and other Black record companies/exec had EVERY opportunity to help steer the direction of Hip Hop. But they mistakenly and selfishly bet against the genre, to their eternal regret. Frankly, had Berry Gordy and his peers had any empathy/foresight for HH pioneers, the genre might have a less harsher tone, Motown might be bigger, more potent than Sony Records.
And BTW:
Gaye left his wife for a teenager who gave birth to his child at the age of 17 and who was the inspiration of some of the songs you probably enjoy most (Can anyone spell "R.-K-E-L-L-Y"?). And White was as big a skirtchaser as you’ll find...while still with his ‘beloved’ Glodine. So maybe, the only REAL difference between our artistic ‘heroes’ of yesteryear and those of today is the Hip Hoppers are much more honest/upfront about what they want/are than were their double-dealin’ predecessors. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 06:41 pm: |
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Hand Raised
I have the book "Street" by Ann Petry but I've never read it. Well I started it(only a few pages) but for whatever reason never finished it. What's your take on the book? I 'am surprised that she (Ann Petry) given the amount of books she sold (correct me Thump, but I believe it's in the millions) does not evoke much conversation, why is that?
Carey |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 10:05 pm: |
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Carey...becuz the street is "literary" and Petry was a writer, not a person who writes books... |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 11:08 pm: |
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Yukio...thank you, that makes since....sorry to say, but it does. |
JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 12:46 am: |
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I heard the following this morning on NPR. Copied from their site.
Readers Embrace 'Ghetto Lit' Genre
Jan. 20, 2004
A genre of fiction known variously as "street lit," "ghetto lit," "urban lit" or "hip-hop lit" has begun registering impressive sales, catching the attention of the publishing industry. Previously sold as typewritten photocopies on street corners, these pulp-fiction books now appear in slick paperbacks available in bookstores and online. Karen Michel reports.
To hear the audio: http://www.npr.org/display_pages/features/feature_1606270.html |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 04:46 pm: |
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JustTheFacts this story from NPR was interesting on a number of levels. Thanks for sharing this information.
A couple of points:
Eso Won's Fugate says he "Hates" these books, but his store sells them. Is there a contradiction here?
Teri Woods’ book True to the Game (arguably the hottest Black book in 2003, making AALBC.com’s best-sellers list in late 2003 http://aalbc.com/books/sept_oct_2003.htm before it was even highlighted on the site). Teri says she sold 400,000 since 1998. BookScan reports 99,000 copies sold since Jan 2001 (a very impressive number). This implies Teri has sold over 300,000, on her own, and without distribution. The 400,000 figure for sales does not wash. It should be no secret many (if not virtually all) self published authors inflate their number in order improve there chances of being picked to be picked up by a major publisher.
2004 will be a watershed year, if the market place absorbs all of the new Hip Hop, Urban and Street books coming down the pike. Obviously if it takes off we can look for even more titles in 2005. This of course will crowd out other more literary titles by Black authors from the major houses. Shoot, if may even crowd out some of the Black authors when the first “EMINEM” type authors comes around writing street fiction.
Finally judging by the title of the NPR piece and the opinion of others in the industry: "Hip Hop Lit" & "Urban" or "Street" Literature is indeed it all the same thing.
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Toni
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 05:34 pm: |
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Troy,
I have to disagree with you about the 400,000 sales. Especailly if Bookscan has veryified 99,000 I think what Woods meant as far as not having distribution--she meant not having a distributor as far as a publishing house goes. But I am sure that some small distributors picked her up. I think her numbers are very immpressive. Secondly, Woods has been approached for distribution deals for her books for years major publishers--- and hasn't taken them-so I doubt very seriously she is waiting on a chance to be picked up by a major publisher. I believe she even has published her second book herself and it's out now. It seems to me you are trying to throw a little salt in her game--give her some props......this black woman is making it work!
Also, we already have our Eminem's in the business, we have had many for years but they sell to the mainstream....can you say James Patterson, Elmore Lenord, Carl Haissan, George Pelecanos They all write about us in their books and take shots at our community that white folk can live with and love to read about For example in the Big Bad Wolf--where a killer tells agent Cross that "You have a PhD? You must have went to Alcorn State or Jackson State." To me the author is saying to his readers those schools are inferior to others. (and it has nothing to do with the character-so save it) Why don't people on this board ever take issue with these sterotypes by these authors when it comes to black people? |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 07:59 pm: |
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Hi Toni, the bottom line is that I simply don't believe Teri sold 400,000 copies of this title. I believe she has exaggerated the sales figures. This is not uncommon and pretty much expected. Since I can't disprove her assertion. I'll leave it at that.
I may not have been clear above. I was refering to the 99,000 as an impressive number for Wood's title.
Toni, "don't get it twisted", I'm not trying to "throw salt" on Turner's game. I wish she would sell a million books! Remember I'm tying to sell Teri's book (http://books.aalbc.com/just.htm).
If any other authors Patterson, Lenord, Haissan, Pelecanos wrote a books like Wahida Clark's Every Thug Needs a Lady AND they were being purchased by Black people in large numbers then they would fit my analogy. I don't think this particular book has been written, but author is already out there. If this genre has legs the book will be written.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:13 pm: |
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Toni, I think a lot of people of this board have issues with how blacks are portrayed by writers like James Patterson. I know I have. But, obviously, the the protocol here is to only discuss black books. |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 25, 2004 - 11:25 pm: |
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Cynique, please discuss Patterson's books. The subject is more than appropriate (though maybe not in this tread - smile)
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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Troy:
I don't see any contradiction with Fugate hating the books and selling them. He may not like to read them, but as a business man wants stuff that is going to move. Like the liquor store owner who doesn't drink. The vegetarian that manages a McDonalds.
About HipHop books crowding out more literary type books--they say competition breeds giants. Authors are going to have to go back to the drawing board and write stuff that can swim in the tide--or find other ways to get their stuff out there.
Cynique, Troy & Toni:
Re Patterson et al (you could add James Ellroy, who really has it out for blacks, but I figure it is a result of his getting beat up and pushed around by them when he was a jailbird back in LA in the 60's) I don't read them. I avoid them like the plague. I figure they are going to have negative portrayals of black folks in them. We ain't doing nothing but giving them publicity by talking about them--
The fan of this kind of book, I am willing to bet, is a white male 30-60. He probably believes that garbage. Further, he is a shlub who is threatened by all the virile black men boxing, playing ball, etc. This is who they are pandering to, not us. The people the Rocky movie series was made for. (and the Lord of the Rings, Trilogy, too)
Don't like them? They don't like Autobiography of Malcolm X.
Let us promote those books that do present images of the black community that we like--it is better to light a candle than curse the darkness-- |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
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Patterson is patronizing in his treatment of blacks. It's like he has a check list of traits that he's following when he portrays them. As a result his black characters tend to be 2-dimensional. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 02:21 pm: |
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Cynique: the bad part is i know some black people who believed Patterson was black. What does this say about you and me? |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 26, 2004 - 09:16 pm: |
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Hey Chris, glad you picked up on my question about Fugate. Allow me to draw draw different analogies about the businessman who wants stuff that is going to move: How about the pimp that want younger finer women for his stable or the drug dealer that wants a more potent and more addictive drug. They want stuff than is gonna make them money, right.
Actually in the case I applaud Fugate's honesty and I would give him a standing ovation if he stopped selling the stuff.
I don't expect a book seller to like every book they sell. However if the bookseller feels that the ghetto or street books contribute to the culture in a negative way and hates the genre as a result. I think that book seller should not contribute to the same.
Can anyone image Africa World Press, Third World Press or Black Classic Press entering the fray with some "street" titles. They certainly have the resources, but maybe some things are more important than money.
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Troy
Newbie Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 08:06 pm: |
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From the The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Word on the street
Hip-hop culture turns a new page as graphic novels portraying black urban life grow in popularity
http://www.ajc.com/living/content/living/books/0204/04blacklit.html# |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 102
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 10:36 pm: |
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Hey Troy,
I just want to know one thang....why did you give me such a hard time on my post about hip hop when you obviously are a supporter of it? *both eyebrows raised in surprise* (heheh)
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Missy
First Time Poster
Username: Missy
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 02:37 pm: |
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I believe there is no real difference, but I also believe it depends where you are in the world.
Originally I am from New York (born and raised) here in the Midwest I hear many people using the terms as if they have different meanings.
For example when people want to refer to urban or street literature they reference Triple Play, B-More Careful and One Life No Sequel, but then for Hip Hop you have Sister Souljah, After the Games are Played and Dumb As Me. What is the difference? I guess I could say "Dumb As Me" lol |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 678
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 30, 2004 - 05:14 pm: |
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And interesting and pertinent observation, Missy. I'm finding that a lot does depends on what part of the country a person is from when it comes to interpreting the urban scene. This also reinforces my notion that the black experience is not monolithic. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 301
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 04:59 am: |
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I don't agree: Hip Hop deals with a state of mind, the love of the music, the language, the manner of dress, the style that began in the '80s,
not necessarily dealing with things that are illegal...this is a nationwide trend.
Street by its very nature deals primarily with illegal activities, drug dealing, hustling, pimping, and those who choose to make a living through this type of lifestyle. To promote this means of making money, you have to be "from the streets" or stay "in the streets" or around the areas where your trade is needed/wanted.
Hip hop, on the other hand, is not restricted to any particular neighborhood, or class. The only thing that the two share is neither is race or culture specific at present, although hip-hop began with African American culture. With the streets, I am not sure.
Because many will argue that the street mentality began with the italians and streetgang mafia type wars of the early 1900's.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 816
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 03:39 pm: |
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I still think that all hip-hop is street, but all street isn't hip-hop. And I also think that those who dismiss hip-hop wouldn't be so quick to do this if hip-hoppers didn't think that they were "all that", when they're not. It doesn't take anything to be hip-hop except to say that you are hip-hop. Hip-hopness is an affectation, and one that takes itself much too seriously. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 305
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 04:11 pm: |
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I still don't agree. Street deals with illegal activities as I said before. Hip hoppers don't necessarily indulge in those type of activities.
And who says hip hoppers take themselves any more seriously than any other generation? Hip hoppers are more than just young people. I bet Russell and Kimora Simmons still consider themselves hip hop as do a lot of people who are not so famous and not so young.
If you ask me, it's people who aren't hip hop that are making it out to be more serious than it is. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 818
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 07:21 pm: |
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Who said that hip-hoppers are only young people? Not I. Russell Simmons is one of the first people who comes to my mind when I think of hip-hop. And, who says "street" is synonomous with illegal activities? To me, "street" means having an awareness of everything that's going on the hood. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 307
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 18, 2004 - 07:37 pm: |
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Hmmmmmmmmm... I guess there can be more than one facet of "the streets" if you're speaking of something other than books. I was merely trying to differentiate between hip hop and street fiction. In the novels that are out, the elements that I have aforementioned appear to be the stand outs, although it can tend to become a bit of a paradox, at times I think for the genre. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 108
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:29 am: |
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Hello All
I think A_Womon's term for "street" is the prevalent meaning. But, if one determines it to be another in their opinion that's on them. But having did my fair share of "hangin'" in them streets, I have to side with A_Womon. It seems the ones that are on the outside looking in always want to have their spin on it and that's cool but if you're talking about the streets and would ask someone in the street of their words on it, I can't help but to believe their view would be more towards that of A_womon's. Yes sir buddy, it ain't pretty and seldon legal. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 109
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:33 am: |
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Btw, "what's going on in the hood IS OFTEN ILLEGAL! Yes, they are aware, for sure, and it ain't pretty and frequently illegal.
What was that saying "if you ain't from the ............." |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 819
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 12:12 pm: |
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In response to my observation that all hip-hop is "street", but all "street" is not hip-hop,
a-womon says "I still don't agree. Street deals with illegal activities as I said before. Hip hoppers don't necessarily indulge in those type of activities."
Cynique replies:
The "street" designation does seem to be a matter of interpretation, as Carey implies.
To me, "street" is just short for "street smarts" or "street wise." Many times the main characters in "street" literature are hard-boiled detectives or cynical private-eyes who are not illegal lawbreakers, but are in the know about who is.
But, the gangsta rap lifestyle which saturates hip-hop, is certainly about what's illegal.
So, we remain at an impasse.
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 312
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:09 pm: |
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no, gansta rap is not the same as hip hop! now you're talking street again. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 415
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:13 pm: |
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All:
Whatch'all doin' way up here? I almost missed y'all.
You say Po-TAY-to and I say Po-TAH-to |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 825
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:19 pm: |
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As far as I am concerned, Gangsta rap permeates the aura of hip-hop. And I repeat. I don't equate "street" exclusively with what's illegal.
Shall we agree to disagree, and attribute this to regional differences. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 497
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:40 pm: |
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Cynique,
You saying "Gangsta rap permeates the aura of hip-hop." proves you simply are wholly unfamiliar with what hip-hop has been and still is truly all about. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 418
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 03:51 pm: |
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Cynique:
I have to agree with Abm and A_woman--this is not a regional difference that you would equate hip hop with Gangsta rap--it is like saying Kenny G permeates jazz. You are laboring under a misconception. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 575
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 04:36 pm: |
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2 cents: street, in my experience, was often a state of mind, particular to the specific neighborhood, region, and city, which included both illegal business, but especially the broad range of experiences that would occur on the street...street usually pertains to "poor" areas, so while will smith may have rapped about what was cool in his "hood," since it didn't deal working and underclass experiences and angst his lyrics are not consider street...or *gutta*...
if u consider mobb deep as street, which they consider themselves, it can be both illegal or just tales bout strugglin in the hood, at the club, etc...
it is all bout setting, tone, lyrics...
watch one of their videos...or even my man juvy's slow motion and there u will see street..."oohhh...i like it like dat she's workin that back i don't know ho da act..slow motion fo me, slow motion fo me.."...not illegal but street not gangsta but very hip hop...
if u consider the roots and talib qweli, it is not illegal but underground hip hop *spittin fire*...freestyle, lyricists, battling, word play, etc....
hip hop is so diverse:
to use chitown example...we have twista, common, and kanye west...all different, but none what one could call "gangsta".... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 828
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 04:57 pm: |
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So, educate me, all of you denizens of the this exulted culture, do hip-hoppers like jazz or R&B or Blues? If they do, then what the f*** is so distinctive about being hip-hop??? Go somewhere and pull your baggy pants off your butt. What's that you say? Hip-hoppers also wear dockers because you have to understand that hip hop is really just an ambiguous state of mind. Finally! I get it. ROTFLOL |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 500
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 05:15 pm: |
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Cynique,
If you observe the bios and interviews of many of hip-hops best and brightest, you would know that they generously recount their affection and appreciation for the contributions of the giants of Jazz, R&B and Blues.
All musical genres are derivative of something else. In this respect, hip-hop is no more-less artistically inspired than its predecessors.
What is Blues without Gospel? What is Jazz without Blues? What is R&B without Jazz? Hip-hop is born from all of those genres. Hip-hop is an amalgam of all of those genres but performed to different, more contemporary lyrics, tempos and settings. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 577
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 05:41 pm: |
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abm: cynique knows this...or maybe she has forgotten...we did share with her months ago...Jazzamatazz, Roots, De La SOul, and others...
Cynique: as in anyother culture, as abm suggests, hip hop music is contemporary, but what most distinguishes it from other african american artforms is the dj and mc...its language, clothes, dancing, are differernt in content but not form as it pertains to the ingredients of any culture...consider jazz even with its diversity had its genres...there was still a language, slang, etc...that miles spoke that bird did not...even the drugs were different...anyways, rather than see hip hop as coherent unit, see it, as all cultures, as complex, diverse, and ever changing.. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 504
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 05:49 pm: |
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Cynique,
I do agree with you that there at least appears to be a high-degree of self-aggrandizement within the hip-hop culture. Though I wonder if what we are witnessing is an exaggerated perspective that is primary the product of a media who enjoy highlighting the bolder, brasher elements of h/h because they make for exciting and lucrative press copy. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 830
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 05:52 pm: |
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And what about Rap music? I'm sure all rappers consider themseves hip-hop. And can a person be hip-hop without liking rap music? Can you separate the 2? My point is that the parameters seem to be so broad that it's hardly worth the effort to lable yourself as hip-hop. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 505
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 05:56 pm: |
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Yukio,
I know Cynique enjoys being the resident hip-hop polemic. And I suspect she is more aware (and perhaps even appreciative) of h-h than she would have us to believe she to be.
I hope our MANY debates/treatise on the subject help inspire others to distill and clarify what hip-hop music/culture is all about. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 506
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 05:58 pm: |
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Cynique,
I would say that rap music does not represent the totality of what hip-hop is all about. But it certainly is the most important, potent element of the music/culture. I would say that it is the fuel or food of hip-hop. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 507
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 06:04 pm: |
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However, I would not assert that the rapper is the preeminent element of hip-hop. I would cite the DJ/producer to be THE most vital element within the ENTIRE hip-hop music/culture.
Because those who make the 'beat' make the music which dictate the culture. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 832
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 06:36 pm: |
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Thank you Yukio and Abm and a-womon for tryin to define the elusive entity of hip-hop. It's kinda like the 3 blind people who were asked to describe an elephant; one said it had a tail, the other said it had rough skin, and the last one said it had a tusk. If I had been the 4th blind person, I might've said it had big ears. Chris would undoubtedly consider that a "misconception." Whatever. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 314
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:01 pm: |
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Cynique,
Ok, now you said it in an earlier post. Everyone trying to lump all thing hip hop under one banner will fail miserably, It is akin to trying to label all AA music as just that Black Music. It is as simple as you seeing the differences in your generation's music as 3: jazz, r&b, and blues
They are 3 distinct branches of the same sound, no?
The same applies to hip hop, rap, and gangsta rap. saying that street and hip hop are the same is like saying blues and jazz are the same---SEE?
YUKIO, I am surprised that you think that there is no difference???
ABM YOU are on it most of the WAY! I bet your daughters like the idea that You can get to THAT!!
Feel me? Check ya email playah!!
Chris, Ya silly!!  |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 511
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 07:34 pm: |
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Cynique,
Funny analogy. Though, one could argue that defining hip-hip is as similarly difficult for the sighted to describe said "elephant" to someone who (perhaps choses to be?) "blind".
HAHA!
A_womon,
I I am apart of the original hip-hop generation. So to some degree I guess I will always apt to rep' the genre (though I share some of its criticisms).
So yeah, I feel yah. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 318
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 09:06 pm: |
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Yukio, Now I know you know that you can be from tha hood, and still not be from the streets of that hood, right? "the hood and the streets" are not synonymous. |
Soulofaauthor
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Soulofaauthor
Post Number: 80
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 11:32 pm: |
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Now as they say let me clear my throat.I am a old school hip hopper or in other word's.Dang I loved me some educated rapper's like. Let me see if ya'll will think back big daddy educated us and also Afrika Bamba.And you know know my boy CHUCK D. Now my Boy Tupac that's hip/hop and urban all at the same the same time.You can't deny it.To be honest Tupac gave back a lot he's one of the reason's I starting back not only reading but also writing.I enjoy the books from the urban author's in fact that's what I am writing.I like the books from TRIPLE CROWN AND URBAN BOOKS.Writer's like us in the past didnt have those venue's to turn to now we do so we blessed now. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 833
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 19, 2004 - 11:32 pm: |
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Frankly, since Will Smith stopped putting out his bubble gum rap, I think all rap has evolved into gansta rap. And no body ever answered my question as to whether a person who doesn't like Rap can be hip-hop? And why is it that everytime I ask a question about hip hop, I get answers about Rap, and every time I ask questions about Rap I get answers about hip-hop? Guess what conclusion I'm drawing? |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 111
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:19 am: |
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Lookie here, ol'souloffherfather done joined the fray .
What's up babe? I read your post and aahh....yeah, you got something there.
Carey |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 321
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:23 am: |
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Come on Cynique,
You and I were talking about street/and hip hop and you brought up gangsta rap! I am hip hop and there are very few rappers that I like and I answered your question in my first line on this thread a that begins with " I don't agree, Hip Hop is a state of mind..."
I don't mention rap at all except as a response to your bringing it up. The answer to your question point blank is YES a person can be hip hop and not like rap. Rap and Hip hop are not synonymous. Did you read my post about Hip hop having many branches, just as your generation's music does, ie jazz,blues, r&B?
|
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 112
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:26 am: |
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Let's see Cyn-cyn, every time you mention or ask a question about hip hop, you get an answer regarding Rap, okay. Then.....THEN, every time you ask a question about rap you get answers about hip hop.....uuummmm.
Now I'm just innocently reading all of this and I too wonder what they are going to say next??? Come on y'aall, don't leave the women hangin'. What y'all got to say about that, huh?
If it seems like I'm stirring the pot, it's only your imagination .
A-Womon, I know you have a reply for her.......don't ya?
How about mr. stunk & funk, I know you ain't going to let her get away with that little serve. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 113
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:30 am: |
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Oh, excuse me, I didn't hear A_womon come into the room. See, I knew she wasn't going to let that lay there very long .
But don't y'all think for one minute ol'cyn-cyn is down for the count, no no. She's just reloading.
Listen, I think I hear her coming down the hall. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 837
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:34 am: |
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A-womon, you can't state that the "hood" and the "street" are not the same, if the person you are disputing is drawing from the perspective of their own black experience. To paraphrase a title. "Your "street" ain't my "street." |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 322
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:39 am: |
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That may be true, so tell me, how do you define :streetwise and streetsmart, from your street experience/viewpoint? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 838
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:43 am: |
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OK, I didn't know you guys were on line. Our posts are crossing. A-womon if rap is as facet of hip-hop then it falls under its upbrella. You say there are other branches of hip-hop music. What are they? And you have said nothing to convince me that hip-hop isn't anything more than a vague undelineated "sub-culture" which has no guidelines. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 839
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:51 am: |
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The terms "street-wise and "street-smart" are self-explanatory. They mean to be wise to the ways of the the street and to know what's going on in the hood. This does not make you a criminal, and very often makes you a survivor in the jungle that is the inner city. Some of my best friends are "street" people and I love 'em. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 323
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:51 am: |
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Well Cynique, I have done that many many times even on this thread, so if that's what you want to believe then you just have to believe that, cause I can't explain it any better than I have.
I am beginning to believe that you don't really want to understand it, but that you'd rather continue sniping from the periphery anyway. You're just gonna have to stay on the other side then and see things from your world. Because I can't bridge the gap for you.
I would still love to hear your view of streetwise and streetsmart. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 324
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:54 am: |
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criss crossed again! can you be more specific. What things in the hood and what things in the street, is one wise and smart about? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 840
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 01:00 am: |
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You're right, a-womon, when all is said and done, I really ain't that interested in what hip-hop is. I just like to challenge people's convictions.
Next time somebody asks you what hip-hop is, you'll have your "definition" all ready.(Everybody isn't as contentious as I am, and they will probably be satisfied with you explanation.) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 841
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 01:12 am: |
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A street-wise person would know where the crack houses are, about whose gang turf is whose, about what cops are crooked, about where a crap game is regularly held, about whether there's a bad batch of heroin out there, even about who's suspected of being on the "down-low." These are things that a street-smart person would know, and this could be somebody who is not particpating in illegal activities, just a someone who is in the know about what's going on in his hood. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 423
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 11:31 am: |
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Cynique:
Let's face it. If you don't like hip hop, you don't like chicken on Sundays.
Get some MC Hammer and Vanilla Ice Albums. And a tape of "Krush Groove"--yeah, you should be able to get "down" with that. You ought to be able to tolerate those (along with some Kenny G in case the Jazz Enforcement squad comes by). And get a baseball cap. And wear it backwards some times.
At least the Drop Squad will know you are trying and won't give you the *shudder* treatment. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 514
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 12:56 pm: |
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A_womon,
Yes, Cynique is our (self-appointed) hip-hop iconoclast. And she and I have clashed ad nauseam on this/related subject. If you have the time/inclination, I suggest you review the ‘Corner Archives to review the details of such.
But, yes, don’t ever expect to be able to convince our ‘cynical’ ‘board member’ of the relative merits of hip-hop. She seems to be genetically predisposed against ever being able to do such.
Cynique,
First, your definitions of street-wise/street-smart were dead-on the money!
I disagree that hip-hop is indefinable. It has some boundaries/markers that are clearly evident (at least to those who chose to see them). And we have discussed this.
But I’ll say that h-h is, like any other artform, both a personal yet universal expression of the esthetic that evolves as we evolve. Thus, it may indeed come to mean similar yet different things to similar yet different people, not unlike how the Blues might have meant one thing to Robert Johnson and another to Muddy Waters and yet still another to B.B. King. Or Mahilia Jackson’s music is a different brand of Gospel music from that of Shirley Ceasars’ whose might likewise differ from that of CeCe Winans’.
I consider rap to be the human voice of hip-hop. It explains the "who", "where", "when", "why" and "how" of "what" hip-hop is about. So, in one respect I disagree with A_womon: I don’t think it is possible to have a valid appreciation of hip-hop WITHOUT enjoying at least SOME, though certainly not ALL, rap music.
To me, one claiming to enjoy hip-hop without appreciating any rap is akin to a man affecting love for a woman without truly enjoying and embracing any of what she thinks, says and feels. Now, that doesn’t mean he must wholeheartedly enjoy/embrace EVERYTHING about her thoughts, words and feelings, but he’s gottah really dig hearing-tale of SOME of it.
I would agree her that hip-hop is rife with self-glorifying egomaniacs. However, if one fairly juxtaposed h-h to it musical predecessors, one would find hip-hop is NOT uniquely endowed in that regard.
For instance, I dare you to find ANY hip-hopper that is MORE self-congratulatory than lil’ Richard ("I am the creator, the originator...the emancipator!") and Miles Davis ("I have changed all of music six times. What the f@$# have you done with YOUR life other than be born White?").
Further, I wager if a mic/camera was held in the irascible Davis’ face as frequently as it was in that of Tupac Shakur’s, the phrase "Miles Davis" would likely be a popular form of a curse word.
And, again, one of the great difference between h-h and its predecessors is it was born/bred amid a media boom like no other in human history. Thus, now everything that anyone of even a modicum of fame/notoriety says/does is - to sales newspapers and airtime - extrapolated to the nth degree.
Moreover, h-h’er’s have learned that the more outlandish one behaves (or at least pretends to), the more attention/press they garner, which improves their album/concert sales and radio airplay and enhances their "Q-rating", which could be used to initiate lucrative cinema/TV/endorsement deals.
Lastly, the only reason why gangsta rap appears to dominate the h-h market is that WHITE KIDS, who buy +70% of those records, enjoy using the bada$$ affectations parroted in those records as a means of rebelling against their parents.
Carey,
You know I can NEVER "fake the ‘(Strunk and) funk’" <wink!> |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 327
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 01:07 pm: |
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maybe back in the day that would've been true about having to like rap to be considered hip hop but hip hop has become so much more than that now that it is NOT a definitive prerequisite to being considered hip hop now.
So at the end of the day........Yukio you fill in the blanks!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 845
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 02:59 pm: |
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Yada, yada, yada. Why does anyone care if I appreciate hip-hop? And why would anyone want to convert me? I, will in the future, refrain from attacking this vacuous life style because to each his own, but I have no desire to become hip hop, just like I have no desire to embrace religion. Neither is anything that compels or inspires me. I am a loner and I do not seek to identity with a particular group. I like what I like and tolerate what I don't like. That's just the way I am. C'est la Vie. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 515
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 03:21 pm: |
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Cynique,
For some who is (alleged) to have no desire to embrace hip-hop, you are rarely at a lost for anything to say about it.
I wonder if you are trying to coerce yourself into resenting something you actually enjoy.
A_womon,
Well, as I said before, hip-hop is evolving. So, okay then. I’ll bite: What current manifestation(s) of hip-hop might someone embrace in the place of rap music?
|
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 583
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 04:03 pm: |
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hip hop is a culture...rap is the musical element, there is dancing, graffiti, djing, etc...not just the music...there is good, bad, and ugly...within the ever changing slang, there is even visages of the protestant work ethic..."dodadamthing," "do u," etc...it is really ridiculous..."becoming hip hop" is a regional, generational thing...jigga's style,PD, and RS's ways are quite different than juvenile, luda, mos def, common...yet, at the same time there is that youthfulness, the creativity, that angst, that hunger...this is the essence of hip hop...hip hop is methodman's lyrics from BRing da Pain..."when i drink absolute straight it burns enuf to give my chest hairs a perm." ...thats raw, creative, witty, etc... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 847
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 04:47 pm: |
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Is there any way anybody would think that I would want to emerse myself in the culture Yukio has so vividly detailed? I am perfectly content to just chill, and like what I like and, yes, one of the many things I like is Usher's latest album. And I promise, I won't get my kicks from harassing all of you devout hip-hoppers anymore, cuz I don't wanna hurt your feelings. heh-heh. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 584
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 08:34 pm: |
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hmmmm...i can't say that i'm immersed in hip hop culture, though in the 90s I certainly could say this was the case...cynique, i'm less interested in you becoming an advocate or socalled "hip hop" and more a person who is knowledgeable and informed.... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 848
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 11:12 pm: |
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Thanks for your interest in my enlightenment, Yukio. And thanks for enlightening me about hip-hop. I never reject useful knowledge. Knowledge is power. |
D_osborne
First Time Poster
Username: D_osborne
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 06:12 pm: |
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Hi everyone. I've never posted here before, but I've been lurking a while. This is an interesting discussion and I couldn't help but jump in.
I'm a 34 year old Black male, and I grew up with hip-hop, and its been a part of me since The Sugar Hill Gang. I don't think its productive to look at hip-hop as good or bad, positive or negative, or progressive or stereotypical. It is all of these things, but this is not the point. The point is that hip-hop is the latest incarnation of the Revolution against white supremacy. It may not seem like it now, but that is all about to change in the very near future.
I am the author/publisher of the new book "The Revolution of the Mentally Dead". It covers a wide range of subjects, including the role of hip-hop as a cultural influence, and its potential in the realm of politics. For more info., check out my website at 360publishingcompany.com. Hopefully, some of you will find it interesting.
The real problem with hip-hop is that we lost control of it a long time ago. But we're getting it back slowly- and I think soon even the most cynical of you will notice the difference. Just try to be a little patient.
Thanks for your time. Peace!
-Darrin Osborne
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 596
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 03:35 am: |
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cynique: anything for u! |
Urban_child
First Time Poster
Username: Urban_child
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 07:08 pm: |
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Hi I am new here and this discussion caught my attention I work in the radio industry but with my age comes the love of music especially hiphop comes. I think that many hold the artist responsible for to much because my thing is of parents and others would step up and be the role models that are neccessary then they won't worry about the rest now I don't like when people speak negative about this culture because out of the thousands of artist we have we do have some who are out there to do a good deed but the meadia always exposes what bad they do. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1121
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 12:49 pm: |
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Ideally, parents should be the role models of their children. But that old menance of peer pressue often takes precedence, not to mention the rebelliousness that is synonomous with adolescence. All of this makes young minds ripe and eager to do what everybody else is doing, which just might be diggin the negative messsage of Rap, - while embracing the hip-hop culture. |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 03:11 pm: |
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as an english professor, i am especially interested in this line of discussion. my age may be showing, but i remember how my generation bought the whole rap thing, hook like and sinker. loved me some run-dmc, sugar hill gang, and kurtis blow! even now, as i have left my teen years behind, i look at rap as an expression of the times rather than as an impetus for crime.
i often use rap in my classes to extoll the virtues of rhetoric, rhyme, meter, figurative language, and social commentary. to this day, i play tupac all of the time, and, like sonia sanchez and nikki giovanni (used to live next door to her in lincoln heights), i recognize pac as the revolutionary, brilliant, and iconic poetic force that scares grown ups to death. and i LOVE his stuff!
it's hard. i think that literature, indeed any art form, is going to reflect the times. we have a responsibility, as artists, to tell the truth. we may censor out children, and hopefully we guide them and teach them that they don't learn family values and morals from rap. we have an obligation to take responsibity for our kids and to recognize that the locust of control must be with us, as parents, rather than with artists, whose job it is to tell the truth and make money. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:07 pm: |
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Well, professor, as an occasional critic of rap music, I have never denied that Rap is a legitmate art form which has commanded a place in the annals of music. And, although I am not blown away by the "artistry" of the over-rated martyred TuPac, I am mesmerized by Nellie. And I wonder if kids can do what I do? Can they separate his sordid lyrics from the infectious cadence of their delivery? Granted, these lyrics are clever and ingeniuous; yet they are also scandalous, and in years to come, they might very well be definitive the hip-hop generation. But, you know what else? I don't give a shit. Let the lemmings follow each other over the cliff. As a member of another era, none of this really has a profound effect on me. Who cares? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 940
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:21 pm: |
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Cynique,
I am laughing hysterically at your giving Nellie propers over Tupac. That was so funny, I dayum near fell outtah my chair.
HAHA!
Whassamatta, Neek-Neek. Just can't get over the fact that Bluegrass/Hillbilly music is no longer vogue? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1140
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 07:37 pm: |
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I don't think I owe you any justification as to which rap artist I like, Abm. I have sense enough to know that my opinion doesn't matter to you, just like your opinion doesn't matter to me. And I've said on any number of occasions that R&B and jazz are my music of choice. You have heard of these genres, haven't you? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 942
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 29, 2004 - 08:22 pm: |
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Cynique,
You can undo your wedgy. No beef. Yeah, I love hip-hop, though I probably dig most R&B and some Jazz as much as you do. But my true love are the classics. More times than not, I'll take Bach over Bird or Biggie. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 406
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:26 am: |
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Biggie!
Right on, Professor Breezy! Unlike Cee-Cee, I give a shit. If HipHop is infectious, I got the bug in spades. I love all music, even some country. That girl Shania Twain does it for me. I didn't think I would like any country music until I heard one of her CD's. Then I started listening to other people and I thought, "Some country is okay!" I wouldn't buy any, but its alright. But HipHop? I'll try to put it in the lingo of you Jazz enthusiasts: "Some of them HipHop cats can really put it down, baby!" All of the lyrics aren't offensive, and many rappers actually put words together that are quite inspiring. I know a woman in her fifties that winces whenever she hears rap. I told her one day to open her mind and try to 'listen' with her brain instead of her ears that were completely shut off to the very idea of rap. Once she did this, she became interested in the deciphering of the slang that's used and the way in which combinations of rhymes play off of the phrases like poetry. Now, she's not a big advocate of rap music, but she listens to it all the time like people try to figure out the meanings of poems. Rappers like Biggie and Tupac were always telling a story in their music. I wish more people would take the time to listen to the interesting tales they were trying to convey. Of course, all rappers don't have this gift. Many are just trying to spin some quick coin...(turn a fast buck for you older folks who didn't catch that last one) But some really have a gift for storytelling. I love words, and I love the different ways poets and rappers play with them. I like to call them 'phraseologists'! I'll have to ask Yukio if I can do that. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 950
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 02:32 pm: |
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Lambd,
Well said (Yeah, you’ll haftah clear dat "phraseologists" with Yukio. Cuz dats outtah my league.). Don’t mind Cynique. She just mad that hip/hop has driven a lot of her fave Jazz/R&B artists into involuntary retirement.
I dig Shania Twain too, though it ain’t her singing I’m trynah get at. <wink!> |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1149
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 02:46 pm: |
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Hip-hop has never overshadowed R&B and Jazz. That's why rappers continue to sample this music in their cuts. Even these "thugs" recognize quality when they hear it. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 414
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 04:20 pm: |
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R&B and Jazz, the Blues, Soul Music in general will always be around, but they are not the 'be all'. At least not for me. I love these types of music, also, but I love Go-Go, HipHop, some Reggae, Calypso, African House Music, Dancehall. Man I give all music a chance because all types of music is beautiful. All types of music, not all music. Cee-Cee will admit that there is some rap that she can tolerate, but that is just a fraction. Most of it is not her cup of tea. There are some people that don't even attempt to hear it at all. Even my seventy-one year old mother will listen to some HipHop. And she digs a good portion of it. The only way she would know is to give it a shot. Hell, I don't like all of it. But some of it is pretty damn good. Especially when they sample the old stuff and make it pertain to today's culture. It takes some intelligence to pull that type of stuff off and make it sound good at the same time.
Abm:Shania sure got a nice shape for a white gal, don't she? Small waist, curvy round hips..You think your Moonmaiden can compare to that? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 954
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 04:31 pm: |
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Lambd,
I think your Cee-Cee is protesting a bit too much. I think she's a closet basehead, uncover rap lover. In fact, my guess is she's into the hard, Geto Boys, NWA, Too Short, Ice Cube gansta variety. You know those suburban chicks like their thuglovin' ruff!
Yeah, I for one can not wait to me and [Shania] "...Twain shall meet." And I hear she's partly Native American. So I'll treat her to a special game of the Buffalo Soldier and the Lonesome Squaw.
I don't know 'bout our Moony Ms. But I aim to find out what she's packin'(& backin') back thur. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 590
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 07:09 pm: |
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TUPAC FOREVER!!!! For those who think that rap only has negative lyrics here is a small sample of Tupacs lyrics:
Dear MAMA
You are appreciated...
...you always was a black queen mama
i finally understand for a woman
it aint easy trynna raise a man
you always was committed
a poor single mother on welfare
tell me how you did it?
there's no way I could pay you back
but my plan is to show you that I understand
You are appreciated... Lady don't you know I love ya sweet lady, place noone above ya...
TO MY UNBORN CHILD
...I hope you understand this love letta...to my unborn Child...ohhhh I'm writing you a letta this is to my unborn child gotta let you know I love you,
Why do I feel this way cuz I think about you everyday...I have so much to say...
AINT NOTHIN LIKE THE OL SKOOL
......what more can I say?
I wouldn't be here today
If the OL skool didnt pave the way!!!
Aint nuthin like the ol skool!
Shed so Many Tearz
...Ive suffered through the years and shed so many tears
Ive lost so many peers and shed so many tears..
I'll never forget you TUPAC
RIP MY NIGGA!!! |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 09:21 pm: |
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yes, yes, y'all! pac was the man. and since when do artists have an obligation to say something "positive?" shakespeare didn't. ralph ellison didn't. hughes didn't. the list goes on and on. i'm gonna hit this one more time then quit this:
there's nothing new under the son, dig? but the human condition is timeless and universal. artists like tupac are a mouthpiece for a generation of people, what they've gone through, and why they act the way that they do.
"f__ck the 5-0 cuz they after me/ kill me if they could/never let them capture me/lost too many niggahs to this gang bangin/homie died in my arms with his brains hangin/f-d up/ i had to tell him it was alright/and that's a lie/and he knew it when he shook and died..." Lord Knows
it's not pretty what some people go through, and who says it has to be? and anyways, it's our job, i guess, as adults to question the art that the younger generation creates. my grandma hated rock and roll... but look what happened with that?
cynique-- don't hate, girl! pac was FOIN, too. i'd a married that ruff neck mo-fo if my husband would have let me! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 591
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 09:58 pm: |
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bluefreezy,
i say again i hope you are around for a long time!
i only posted some positive lyrics cuz some people think that rap is always and ONLY NEGATIVE and gansta. i definitely am with you on rap not always having to be positive--no music is always positive! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1155
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 10:59 pm: |
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If Tupac hadn't got killed, he'd be just another Rapper suffering from multiple personality disorder. And, in a way, it's a good thing he died in his prime because he had no way to go but down. Wheeeeeeeeeee! I know that'll git you guys going. LMAO. But save it. You don't need to convince me of anything. What I think about that obnoxious little varmint doesn't matter.
Hiiiii, Jigga. Congrats on all those MTV awards. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 593
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:18 pm: |
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Cynique,
Replace Tupac's name with Your boy Nelly omit the part about him being murdered and your anlysis will be PERFECT! HAH!
TUPAC FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1158
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:33 pm: |
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I certainly don't take Nelly serious as an artist. I just like him because it's impossible for me to listen to him and sit still. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 594
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:57 pm: |
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shore! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 421
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 07:52 am: |
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Sorry, Cee-Cee, but noway Pac would have been 'just anotha' anything! That cat had it and had it well! He had that Midas touch. He was just like Prince, only Prince wasn't a rapper. These cats played multiple instruments, wrote great tunes, told fabulous stories in their music, and had a way with flippin' phrases like flapjacks. Both of them have storehouses of music that other artists can't even begin to imagine. These guys are super visionaries. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 962
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 10:49 am: |
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Cynique,
There comes a time when we've gottah stop dah 'hate'.
Tupac was so multitalented, that had he not been killed, he would have likely won an Oscar, an Emmy, a Tony, a Grammy and a Pulitzer by now. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1159
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 11:54 am: |
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I doubt it. Tupac was murdered because of his inability to exercise restraint. Who is to say he wouldn't have burnt out? And comparing him to Prince proves nothing because Prince never got better after he peaked at "Sign of the Times." You guys are all idol-worshippers, - cult members. Poor babies. I feel your pain. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 963
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 12:13 pm: |
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Cynique,
You are so wrong is so many ways.
First, 'Pac was killed for reasons that had NOTHING to do with his behavior. And I am scared to say even here WHY 'Pac was killed. But any of us who are true fans of his have an inkling of why dude was murdered. All you have to do is look closely at what happened prior to and after his murder.
And 'burn out'? Baby, 'Pac's been dead for nearly 10 years and he's STILL releasing albums. Even music 'god' John Lennon (The Beatles) has not had that level of posthumous artistic output. And then you have his fine poetry, essays, acting performances, interviews, etc.
And, Baby, "Sign O' The Times" was Prince's 7th or 8th Prince's albums (not counting his non-album singles like the CLASSIC "Erotic City"). So even if you are correct that he "peaked" at S.O.T.T. (which I disagree with, rather, I think hip-hop changed our tastes in music), there have been many great artists of assorted style/genre who have accomplished far less than that and over a longer period of time.
Again, 'hate' only 'hates' the 'hater', baby! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1161
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 12:36 pm: |
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You are biased, Abm. Everything you are parroting is colored by the fanaticism of TuPac's followers, of which you are one. I repeat. I am not a big fan of Tupac or impressed by the mediocre outtakes from his previous albums that are released from time-to-time to put money in the coffers of record companies. Or is his poetry any better than that of a lot of live spoken word poets out there. Being prolific is not synonmous with being extraordinary. And surely you don't deny that Tupac is the poster boy for somebody who lived by the sword and died by it! Dry your tears. The MFer is dead and done. This is just another subject that you and me disagree on. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 964
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 01:23 pm: |
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Cynique,
You are funny! Why all the 'hate'?
You are (by your own admittance) uninformed about hip-hop. So you lack the wherewithal to make any meaningful assessments about rap or spoken word, much less that of Tupac. So although I have enjoyed debating you on this subject, I know what I am doing here is the equivalent of playing tennis with someone who does not have a racket.
And 'Pac's death was as much a business deal as anything else. There are A LOT of entertainers who have done FAR worse than he has ever done and manage to stay alive/kickin'. One of them is your childmolesting Chi-Town homeboy R. Kelly.
If Prince's works are not "extraordinary", than PULEASE tell me whose are.
And I wouldn't know you cared if you did not disagree with me. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1164
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 01:56 pm: |
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Oh, give it a rest, Abm. A lot of Prince's work was not extraordinary. That's why Warner Bros wanted him to stop putting out albums every 6 months, and why this mini-control freak went into a royal snit. All of which is an example of why I don't place much stock in your Tupac arguments. You buy into myths. You allow the powers-that-be to anoint artists and dictate your preferences. I'm surprised you didn't cut-and-paste some long article written by some pseudo-hip white musical reviewer who thinks it's cool to write about Rap, and who praises Tupac to high heaven because that's the "in" thing to do. Or that you didn't quote me something from the book by that other Tupac groupie, Eric Michael Dyson. And your throwing R. Kelly into the mix reeks as an act of desperation. As if I'd defend him. But go ahead and love you some Tupac. You have lots of company. He's a folk hero. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 425
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:26 pm: |
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It is very hard for me to read what I'm reading. I have no idea what makes Cynique say that Tupac was mediocre. There's something else going on here. Prince was putting out volumes of music because he was under contract with Warner Bros. and according to the 'royal snitster' they were robbing him. I guess if controlling your own shit makes you a mini-control freak, it is what it is. That's a whole nutha thang. I don't worship Tupac. I think he was one of the best rappers though. I don't praise him because its the 'in' thing to do. That cat had talent! I could see it! If you can't that's your thing. I think people go overboard about it though cuz I liked Biggie bettah! That whole 'playin' tennis without a racket' thing sums it up. Cynique got a thing against hiphop so who she thinks is good or bad don't count. She pretty much hates all rappers...except "V-to-the-iggo"! All he needs is a Vanilla Ice haircut and we can make him a folk hero for at least a couple days.
Hey, Cynique, what's your take on Beyonce's beau? The Jiggaman? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 969
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:27 pm: |
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Cynique,
In a minute, I might have to ask you to stop. Because you continue to embarrass yourself by your utter ignorance about the music.
Because there are so many other pop artists, it takes time to effectively position/compete against the 'myriad' other musical offerings. Thus, the popular music apparatus is arranged to market/distribute one album from an artist ever couple of years.
Now, that is fine for the Britney’s and Nelly’s of the world, who have hardly the talent/commitment to generate even that level of output. But if you have an artist like Prince who could quite literally complete a fully developed album inside of a week, you have a problem.
But, no matter how astounding his works may be, the market place is set-up to tolerate only so much of his ‘greatness’. And what will happen is his newer works will quickly cannibalize the popularity of what was released just months ago.
THAT is why Warner Bros. curbed his output. Not because they felt what he did was not good. In fact, I doubt there is any artist, certainly any Black artist, has made more money for and contributed more esteem to WB than has Prince.
Hey! What’s your beef, anyway? Why such vitriol?
You are cracking me up, gurl!
Why do you continue to falsely peg me as some blind Tupac groupie? I don’t view Tupac as being some "annoited" savior, saint or anything. He was a very talented, hardworking and accomplished but troubled and flawed young Black man who in a brief period of time achieved famed then, like many Black men, sadly died WAY before his time. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 970
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:35 pm: |
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Lambd,
Don't sweat your beloved Cynique. She's just doing her patend iconoclast routine. I just wish that she know what the @#$% she’s talking about.
I agree with you. Tupac was immensely talented/accomplished in a variety of ways. But...Man!...when it came to delivering rap lyrics, there was BIGGIE...then there were/is EVERYBODY else. That boy was so smooth it dayum near makes me wanna cry to even think about him. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:49 pm: |
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You guys were kids when Prince was in his hey day. I wasn't. Prince wanted to go in his vault and put out an album every few months and Warner Bros told him "no" because quality wasn't necessary quality. All those songs that he wrote in 15 minutes weren't that great! Check out any biography of him. All that other "slave" crap about the rights to his music came later.
As for my tweaking you guys' noses about the merits of that little twerp Tupac. Does the name Viggo ring a bell. Payback is a bitch! LMAO. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 427
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:52 pm: |
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TUPAC WAS NOT A TWERP, CYNIQUE!...but I like it when you tweak me, baby. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1169
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:54 pm: |
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correction that should read "quantity" wasn't necessarily "quality." |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 429
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 03:56 pm: |
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We knew what you meant. Now come and tweak me some more, baby! heheheh! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 971
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:04 pm: |
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Lambd,
HAHA!
Your ""V-to-the-iggo"! All he needs is a Vanilla Ice haircut and we can make him a folk hero for at least a couple days." is HILARIOUS! I wish I could dawg-out Viggo too. But I (DAYUM!) promised Cynique I wouldn't. So thanks for holding down the V-man bashing for me.
Cynique,
1st - You don't know my age. (& I ain't tellin'!)
2nd - My wife (serious Prince freak) has EVERY Prince album made. She know's EVERYTHING about him. We (often to MY chagrin) listen to that dude ALL THE TIME.
3rd - Why should Lambd have ALL the fun? Tweak me again, too!
"Ewwww! I like it like dat. She workin’ dat back. I don’t know howtah act.
Slo' moeshen fah me. Slo' moeshen fah me. Slo' moeshen fah me..." |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1171
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:16 pm: |
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tweak, tweak, tweak. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 602
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:19 pm: |
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yall wanna tell me how immature I am again...??? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 975
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:32 pm: |
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A_womon,
In the words of the inimitable Mr. Myaghi: "Oh! Young [A_womon]san. Remember: All life must have a balance." |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 976
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 04:34 pm: |
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Cynique,
Oooh yeah!
Dats it! Right der! Right der, baby! |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 7
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 02, 2004 - 08:54 pm: |
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y'all still at it in here, huh? tickles me. no need in going on and on about pac. clearly cyn has got... issues where this is concerned.
not to mention the foolishness about prince. his royal badness is ABSOLUTELY and WITHOUT QUESTION a musical genius. he has actually changed the face of popular music. and, believe me, i was around when he first came out (for you, in which he played every single instrument and sang every vocal-- so please!), and during his "hey day," as you say. and he perseveres.in a BIG way.
he had a battle with WB because he wanted the freedom to produce innovative music rather than just hits, like purple rain. ain't nobody bad like prince. don't believe it? saw him in dc this month. a completely packed audience. 3 shows sold out in 5 minutes, at least 10 years after his "hey day." by the way, sign of the times was not a commercial success, so why is this seen as his hey day anyway???
and about biggie: ok. i don't hate. but, put it this way: when pac died, i played his music all day. when biggie died.... i played pac's music all day.
it's entertaining to read what y'all got to say! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1193
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 12:00 am: |
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You should read more carefully, Professor. Nobody ever said Prince wasn't a genius. Who doesn't know that he plays all the instruments on his albums and writes all of the songs?? I am a Prince fan. I just attended his concert in July, so I don't need to be convinced of anything. But, if you will check any biography of his, you will learn that, in the beginning, Prince and Warner Bros first fell out because Prince wanted to put out too many albums, and Warner Bros vetoed this preferring that he concentrate on quality instead of quantity. Every song he wrote wasn't the bomb. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 444
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:00 am: |
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What you say about Biggie, Professor? I musta missed something. You better watch yourself! Next time you in da hood, I'm gonna tie you down duct tape some headphones to your head and make you listen to Hypnotize a thousand times...Hata!
Anywho, a friend of mine went to that same Prince concert and said that it was the best concert he had ever been to. I saw Prince at the Capital Centre years ago. I was a teenager and he was bad to the bone then! The Cap Center is long gone, now and Prince is still putting out hits!
DoctorFreezy, you from Chocolate City or you just come down here to go to shows and bash Biggie? I'm still salty about that Biggie stuff you talking so watch how you answer. You know your boy Pac is from B'more, that aint nothin' but twenty minutes up the parkway. We always had a lot of talent round here. Especially when Puff was pretending to go to school at Howard. Biggie was here on weekends partying and Pac was always in the city. He loved NYC, but DC was home. He fell in love with Cali later. But who wouldn't? The weather, the beaches, the parties...the chicks! Still, there aint no place like Dodge City, baby! |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:08 pm: |
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"Oh, give it a rest, Abm. A lot of Prince's work was not extraordinary."
sorry, cyn. i took this comment, which seems less than flattering, to mean that you disagreed with prince's "genius" status. i guess there are many geniuses who do "lots of mediocre work." my bad. |
Bluefreezy
Newbie Poster
Username: Bluefreezy
Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:17 pm: |
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lambd- i feel you on the biggie front. NO disrepsect there, truly. old dude good flow like a mo-fo. but in terms of the whole supposed east coast west coast rivalry, i land in pac's camp.
fyi, all y'all: i am NOT a doctor yet. i am working on my phd, and until it is finished, defended, and published, i will not be a doctor. just a professor. but please call me Blue.
i am from the dc area, yes. born in ohio but reared in maryland. i have seen prince every time the boy has come to town, and i have never been disappointed. he's an old favorite.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 457
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 05:42 pm: |
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I was born in DC, I work in DC but I live in Maryland, Doc! (I never call people on the Board what they want to be called!) I think we willjust have to agree to disagree, because I love me some 2pac, too! So I see where you're coming from on that end. So long as you give the fatman his props, too. Peace, Doc, I'll put the duct tape and the headphones back in the emergency cabinet so you can come on into the city if you want. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1025
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 07:54 pm: |
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Lambd/Bluefrenzy,
I think 'Pac had more to say but Biggie was better at saying it.
Cynique,
Some of what Mozart, Coltrane and Aretha did was mediocre too? And just because some no-talent pencilneck papershuffling Warner Bros. executes to Prince some of his works were not good (or 'commercial'), we're suppose to believe them?
Really. What's your point? |
Thumper
Moderator
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 08:26 pm: |
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Hello All,
Prince is my boy from way back. I love his stuff! But, as much as I love his music, Cynique is right, not everything he put out was da bomb! The same can be said for any artist who's been putting out stuff over a period of time. From my reading of Prince's biographies, he and Warner Brothers did have a disagreement concerning output. They wanted him to put an album out every 2 or 3 years which had become the industry standard. The ironic thing is, when Prince didn't give them any material, changed his name and did what he wanted to do, Warner Bros. started releasing a bunch of stuff that Prince didn't approve of and had no say in. I don't believe Prince's best work is behind him. For my money his best complete album, track to track, is still 1999. Sign o the Times is excellent. I love Diamond and Pearls, The Gold Experience and the Emancipation set. Actually, The Crystal Ball set is good too! But now, I think his music is going to become more seasoned. His genius will really start to show, like any true musician be they jazz or classical cause he is at the age now where he don't have to prove anything. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1208
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:24 pm: |
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Tell 'em, Thumper.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1209
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 10:35 pm: |
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Abm, I can't believe that you might consider the possibility that everything a musical genius does isn't great, and this includes your revered Tupac. (That's the point, babe.) |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 749
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 03, 2004 - 11:13 pm: |
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i think tupac was prolific and more socially conscious and a bigger larger than life personality...biggie had better flow, like jay z often has better flow than nas, but nas is more socially conscious...
Prince, my man fit-tee gran...is a genius, but has come out wit some real bs...so cynique, my lady, we agree once more...oh yeah and u 2 thumpacalypse |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 464
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 02:09 am: |
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You three can have a group hug and a cookie, now! Who doesn't know that everything a genius comes out with isn't fantastic. You three continue congratulating yourselves on the obvious. I never read a post that said otherwise. I was right about the grass being green in patches in front of my house, too. Everybody's a damn critic. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1026
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 07:57 am: |
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Cynique,
Uh? What did Thumper "tell" us? Actually, his comments appear to support what we have already said.
I don't get this notion that everything a genius does is suppose to be great. Thomas Edison (ably assisted by a brilliant Black man Lewis Latimer) performed over +10,000 experiments before he could get the light bulb to work.
And I happen to agree with Thumper that 1999 was Prince hallmark album. But that isn't an indictment of his other opuses, which all included varying degrees of fine works. 1999 was the finest pop album produced by an individual artist of the 1980's. In fact, 1999 is so wondrous, you could include parts of it in 3 or 4 other albums and they would STILL be good.
So, to me, saying Prince peaked at 1999 is equivalent to saying a 20-something Einstein "peaked" at his transcendent theory E=mcc.
And, you know, most of Mozart's work was rejected by his contemporaries. (I think the common refrain was that it included "too many notes".). That is why he died penniless and was buried in a beggars' grave. Now, almost 300 years after his birth, we still enjoy his music. Van Gogh endured a similar life. And now his paintings are so prized they sell for +$50M.
So, AGAIN, "What is your point?"
Bluefrenzy,
Listen to Yukio. His Tupac/Biggie (and Jay Z/Nas) contrast is on point.
No offense intended to "Makaveli" worshippers. But if Tupac and Biggie had had an extemporaneous rap contest without musical accompaniment, Biggie wins that baby HANDSDOWN.
Lambd,
HEHE!
Man. I got into SO much trouble with 1999's "International Lover".
PS: No discredit is at all intended to Prince. But he (and A LOT of other people) owes much props to Sly Stone. Because Prince largely perfected a sound that the under-regarded Stone had already created. Don't believe me. Listen to some of Sly's stuff. You'll hear Prince, Michael & Janet Jackson...Hell!...even Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake (for Christ Sake!) all over the place. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 659
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 08:16 am: |
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You baby boomers have a right to prefer who you prefer, but say what you will TUPAC was about more that a smooth voice and flow(biggie)HE WAS A VISIONARY, he told the truth about a lot of the situations that black youths face, AND tried to educate all on the political ramifications of a variety of subjects. The man broke it down! But, he could also do the regular gangsta rapper type ish too, when the mood struck. There was no one like him before and no one since!! (although NAS has his flava when it come to using rap to deliver a message) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1029
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 08:44 am: |
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A_womon,
I agree with EVERYTHING you said about Tupac. But in terms of raw rap vocal ability, NOBODY, not even 'Pac, did it like Biggie. Biggie was the 'Pavarotti' of rap. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 189
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:22 am: |
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I agree with ABM, sorry, but the boy knows what he's talking about. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 466
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
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You tell 'em, Carey! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1035
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 11:37 am: |
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Carey,
"'Love' means never having to say you're 'sorry'."
HAHA! |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 190
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:05 pm: |
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Okay ABM..........ahhh, slow motion fo' me, slo mo.....
ahh, okay, I ain't sorry den. You know I really don't believe I was sorry, it's just something we say......you know what am talkin' bout.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:14 pm: |
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Carey,
Aw man, you know I'm pullin' your leg (hope that didn't hurt). I'm just letting fly the random musings of my mind.
Hey? Where you been? I think we could have used you to help curb some of the recent hysteria around here (Okay. Yeah. I, admittedly, helped contribute to it.). |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1212
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:26 pm: |
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My, my, fellas. Did somebody push your buttons? Calm down. It's OK. Cynique loves Prince. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 192
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:31 pm: |
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I've been here all along, the water was a little bit deep for me. I've just been kickin' back shakin' my head. Sometimes I've even laughed along BUT it got ugly. So my brotha, I was just "musing" myself, even though I don't know what the hell that means . For real though, I was just ahhh.....hollerin' at ya. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 193
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |
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Hey Lambchop, I noticed somebody has ripped off my name for you. That ain't even right. But ahhh, that's cool, you tell 'em they can't be doing things like that, there's something special in a name we give each other and they'll have to find their own. I got a few names for them but I'm gonna hold that. Yeah, see, I understand, they don't really know the rules of the game, it has to come from being there, know what I mean. They can say all the B.S. they want but it's all clouded in a fake world. A person can lay in the sun and read all the AA books they want to but it ain't never gonna be the real thang, ain't nothing like the real thang. They can even lay up with "one" but that is not going to give them a pass to the real thang.
Hey, I'm just musing..........or is that using what god gave me. You know, common sense. But hey, I've learned that all wasn't standing in line when that was passed out. Nope, missed it.
later |
Lbrown
First Time Poster
Username: Lbrown
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 14, 2004 - 12:36 pm: |
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The urban sector is large however, you miss out on a lot of good books because of the lack of marketing and or funding of small press. I try to find urban books that may not have the biggest marketing push. I find these books to be some of the best books I’ve every read. Currently I am reading this book called “A Melancholy Note” and it is off the hook. I found it at a site called www.quadjam.com. Before this book I took the time to read “The Coldest Winter Ever” because I heard so much about this book. In a rare moment the reviews were correct. The book was good as well. I say that urban and hip-hop authors are great writers and they keep me interested in their work. Up until recently that was not the case. I really do not think there is much difference between the two writing styles. |
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