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Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 09:40 pm: | 
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Who is the hottest street life fiction writer to date. Shannon Holmes, Teri Woods, Nikki Turner or Sistah Souljah. Who is the best at this so-called new genre |
Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 08:45 am: |
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In my opinion, Donald Goines, even though he has been deceased for about 30 years. He wrote an incredible amount of books in a small amount of time before he was murdered at his typewriter and decades later his books are still flying off shelves. DMX has a movie coming out based on one of his books in the next few months. I often wonder how many books and how much he would have accomplished if he had not died so young.
Peace,
Zane |
sisgal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 11:14 am: |
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Nichelle Tramble, Solomon Jones, Kenji Jasper, Sister Souljah. |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 12:00 pm: |
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Nichelle Tramble or Solomon Jones, I'd guess. |
Bayou Lights
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |
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Hmmm. . .
I don't know much about Kenji Jasper but I don't think I'd classify Solomon Jones or Nichelle Tramble as "street fiction" writers. They fall solidly in the mystery category for me. I think they're books stand along with Mosley, Grace Edwards, Gary Phillips, Gar Anthony Haywood, Eleanor Taylor Bland, Terris McMahon Grimes, and the rest of the mystery writer crowd.
Goines exists on his own for social commentary. Not a huge fan of his writing but I do believe him to be a chronicler of a specific time/place and group of people.
Street fiction in my mind - and I qualify this by allowing that I could be wrong - is fiction with an urban setting that is largely about the lifestyle. In the case of Tramble and Jones the story was driven by the mystery, the traditional "whodunnit" of it all, and with Tramble specifically the first novel was a set up for what is basically a family saga. The mystery element drove the story, but it was also textured with family dynamics and social issues.
Further on that point, both Jones and Tramble had main characters that were trying to search for answers and find killers -- that falls very much in the traditional detective fiction category.
Also, I looked up a recent article about Street Fiction and neither of these authors were mentioned. It did mention Holmes, Woods, Turner and Souljah - all women interesting enough/unless Shannon is used for a man as it sometimes is - and I haven't read these four so I didn't include them in my answer. I didn't want to speak on something I didn't know but my final opinion is that while Solomon and Tramble spin a good crime yarn it doesn't qualify as street lit in the way I've recently seen it written about.
Bayou |
sisgal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 01:05 pm: |
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Of course, you may be correct Bayou, but it is stated on the cover of Nichelle Trambles Dying Ground, "A Hip-Hop Noir" now how that relates to to street fiction may be another discussion. The NY Times called it "Streetwise". Jones book Pipe Dreams is another one you mention. I guess I more consider them urban fiction, whether it be mystery, suspense or dramatic. They are mysteries as well, but the introduction of the street, urban drama's, lend me to consider them in this arena. Now as far as Shannon Holmes goes...I don't believe is of the same quality. By the way, who qualifies Street Lit, is it the readers, the authors, the publishing houses or the media? It's like chick-lit...someone applies a name to a certain type of writing, women behaving badly, living freely sexual lives, and now all books written for single, independent women in their 30's and above are classified Chick-lit...Would that make "Waiting to Exhale", Chick-lit, or would it still fall into our Relationship category, womens fiction, or Thumpers fav, "Torneisha Tales"? Who knows??? |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 01:14 pm: |
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Tramble's publishing company insisted on the "Hip-Hop Noir" subtitle, against her wishes. It was removed in later additions.
Bayou & sisgal-
Good points, I guess in many ways the genre is to be defined.
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Bayou Lights
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 01:20 pm: |
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The Dying Ground now has a subtitle that says "A Maceo Redfield Novel" - wonder if that makes the other ones a collector's item. Maybe the publishers realized they're mistake, especially since there was no hip hop in the book. I heard Tramble interviewed and she hated the hip hop noir tag they slapped on her book.
Maybe a point is lost somehow when it's written in black and white but despite the "streetwise" bit from the NY Times I'm still gonna call it a mystery. I think it fits more in the mystery category. More of a traditional mystery than I imagine the others to be. We'll see with book two.
Also, the article I read called the new genre "Ghetto Lit" which to me sounds dismissive and subpar. I thought Jones and Tramble's books deserved a little better than that.
I'll try and find the article to post here.
Bayou |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
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Another article that tries to define "hip hop fiction" is in lastest issue of QBR. The article is written as poorly as some of the books mentioned. |
Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 02:08 pm: |
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Well, my books have been put into the hip hop, and even street categories and I personally don't see it. I think some publishers just throw titles in various genres because publicity is publicity. I actually was called to be interviewed about the street article done in USA Today and I told the reporter that my books did not fit into the genre point blank. I have not seen the actually article so I am not sure if she mentioned me or not after I made it clear.
I have not read The Dying Ground but I am staring at it on my bookshelf (I purchase just about any AA book that comes out) and now I am curious so I am going to take it home with me from the office. I have read both of Solomon Jones' books and LOVED THEM. Not sure I would classify them as street but they are definitely worthy reads.
Peace,
Zane |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 02:12 pm: |
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In previous discussions of this subject, the list always included Iceberg Slim whose books chronicled his days as a street pimp.
Also Gary Hardwick whose debut novel "Cold Medina" was definitely "street."
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Bayou Lights
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 02:18 pm: |
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About a month back there was a Q&A in Publishers Weekly with African American agents, editors, booksellers, etc. It was a roundtable discussion about all things books, and specifically AA books and they touched on the topic of "Street/Ghetto Lit". Just like here, some embraced the moniker and others resisted. All agreed, however, that it had brought younger readers to books. The booksellers then talked about how they were able, after the initial contact, to hip the kids other titles.
QBR arrives late in my area so I haven't seen the latest issue. I like the magazine as an idea more than I appreciate the execution. Mostly, I find the reviews to be trite, and not very insightful. I swear, in one issue at least four reviewers used the expression "you will recognize these characters" and "there is something for everyone".
I admit the reviewers may be limited by word count so maybe readers would be better served by a synopsis. Also, I think they've missed the boat on quite a few impressive books. But that's another subject.
Back to Street Lit - I agree, In Print, that the genre has yet to be really defined. Renay Jackson, a self-published writer, out of Oakland has embraced the classification and has since been featured heavily in San Francisco Bay Area press as well on NPR in a lengthy interview about the subject of ghetto novels.
Bayou |
Bayou Lights
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 02:29 pm: |
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Zane---
Wow! I can't believe they contacted about street lit. I would not put you in that category. Sounds like lazy research on the part of the reporter, or more specifically, an unwillingness to see the individuals within the masses. But, alas, that is nothing new.
Hope you enjoy "The Dying Ground" - it was one of my favorite books the year it came out. Looking forward to reading "The Last King" which Thumper has chosen as a pick for April.
Glenville Lovell has escaped the street lit thing, and his last book was set in an urban environment. Maybe because Blades was a more traditional detective and Jones and Tramble used amateur sleuths who were trying to solve a situation that was personally close to them.
Another thread of this topic, which was touched on above, is do you think books cease to be taken seriously once they are planted firmly in a category? Maybe this is also one reason authors resist hard classifications.
I read a lot of mysteries and I think there are quite a few authors handling serious tough topics, and doing it well, but the titles are ignored because they are genre. Can't remember the last time a mystery made an awards list and many have been worthy. Am I wrong about that? Thumper, anybody, can you correct me if I'm wrong about an AA genre book (specifically mystery) making any lists for awards.
Bayou |
K. Elliott
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 03:49 pm: |
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In my opinion and it just that a opinion. I don't think you can rightfully say that anybody is the best. Its a matter of your personal prefrences. I think Donald Goines and Iceberg Slim and Chester Himes are Legendary and to compare writers of today to them is really unfair because most of these writers are just getting started including myself. But like Zane said earlier Donald Goines put out a huge volume of work in such a short time. He was very prolific. Most of the writers today have read Goines and have been influenced by his work and to me he is and always will be the man. This day and age I don't think there is a best in terms of talent, sure some sale more than others but I don't think you can equate talent with sales. But the sreet-life fiction is just beginning. I think most writers have the potential to put out one good book but the question is can you stay consistent like Goines and time will tell. Right now the shelves are full of street books. Oh yeah Go pick up Entangled. Thought I'd throw in a little self promotion. Was I wrong for that. Peace |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 05:05 pm: |
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I'd have to give it to Chester Himes. Like many here have said, it's almost unfair to compare folks who have one or two books out to a guy that had a 40 year writing career, but hey I didn't start the thread.
You wanna change it to the best one within the last 10 years or the best new writer? |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 09:38 am: |
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Would Mosley Easy Rawlins books qualify as street? And Bayou, don't you think it's possible for books to transcend two or more categories - sometimes I don't know where to look for AA crime novels - under AA, under women's fiction or under crime? |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:19 am: |
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Lurkerette:
I probably would say Easy was street, and that Moseley was probably the best of the last ten years or so--if Ray Shell had written four or five more like ICED I would give it to him. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:52 am: |
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Hello All,
I'm with Bayou Lights all the way. I think it is important for us to define what "street" or "hip hop" literature is before we start tagging books with the classification. I also agree that books by Solomon Jones or Nichelle Tramble should be tagged as "street" or "hip hop". As was said earlier, just because a book takes place in an urban setting does not make the book "street". If that was the case then shouldn't Walter Mosley books be stuck with the hip hop banner, as well as James Patterson's Alex Cross series, or Dennis Lehane's novels or would it be out of line to say that Richard Wright's Native Son is a "street" novel, especially since Bigger Thomas' domain was the streets and not suburbia (sp). And usually when people say "street", does this mean that only black people can have this determination since we all know all black folks live in the city and don't know nothing about the suburbs (said sarcastically) *rolling my eyes* Maybe somebody should run and tell all the white folks that's living in downtown Indianapolis that they should get out of their three floor townhouses and condos and penthouse apartments and move to the suburbs where they belong. I can see how well that'll go over.
I can't help but to feel that this "hip hop" or "street" classification is a backhanded compliment. |
JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:32 pm: |
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Thumper, the main people who are tossing out these labels can't or won't provide any defintions.
In another thread that took placed over the last couple of weeks, the term hip hop was assigned, on one extreme, to those between a finite span of years and then on the other end, to those folks who are subjected to white supremacy, which just about include everyone.
As you say, if it's merely about setting then all those "sistagirlfriends" books would fall under this heading since the setting is always in a major metropolitan area. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:45 pm: |
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Oh stop it, already, JustTheFacts!
These catagories have been adequately defined. You just stubbornly refuse to accept the definitions that were offered.
Just because YOU chose to ignore or refuse to accept that these genres exist doesn't mean that they don't, especially considering that MANY others people view them to be real.
Let's play a game. Define, describe and prove the the following words/concepts:
1) Life
2) Gravity
3) Love
4) Good/Evil
5) Soul
6) Spirit
7) Infinity
8) Space
9) Existence
10 GOD |
JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 05:04 pm: |
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ABM, obviously they haven't been clearly defined or else the same questions wouldn't have been raised by Thumper, Bayou, and others, in this thread. So you think they too are choosing to ignore or not accept what's been offered, so far?
There have been so many defintions, or shall I say examples, tossed out about what's hip hop, street, urban, etc. So far, we had suggestions from Shannon Holmes to Walter Mosley to Richard Wright.
And, I don't have time or inclination to play games with you. So, you will have to play with yourself.
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 05:12 pm: |
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This is almost like the dreaded Chick Lit debate (I don't wanna go there no more)
Is there a website or page or club devoted to this genre, or is this a name we have given that kind of work? |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 05:43 pm: |
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JTF,
CHICKEN! |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 05:44 pm: |
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Although, I do like to "play with" myself, Thank You Very Much!<<wink!>> |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 05:55 pm: |
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Why don't we all just agree that all black books are street books cuz we is all connected to da street. Our roots originated in the street just as much as they sprouted from the jungles.
Bring it on! LOL |
Katrina M.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 06:21 pm: |
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Agree with Cynique 100%.
Didn't think of that myself, though, but she's right.
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Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 07:14 pm: |
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Hello All
Tsk Tsk Tsk, now come on y'all lets get real. I, nor do I believe anyone else, knows the root of this arguement/discusion, but we-I-you-they- all know what "street" and "hip hop" is. The only time this becomes an issue is when someone is asked to define it. Think about it, when you are asked to define "street" or "Hip Hop"? It's frequently/usually asked to confuse or to throw some shit in the game. Look at the exchange (no disrespect intended) between ABM and JTF. Two obviously intelligent brothers beating each others heads against the wall, dodging, asking, tippin' around, flippin, askin' again, the SAME OL'SHIT. Again no disrespect intended. But really (and I know you'll appreciate this ABM), if I walked up to you and said, " hey man, I wouldn't "f" with that brotha if I were you, he's straight up off the street. You would NOT say, "ahh, what street" or "could you define street Dawg". Check this out too: If I walked up to you and said, Damn, the police got somebody hemmed up over there. you might ask who, and if I said one of them HIp Hop brothers, you (all of you) would know (or have a clear enough picture/understanding for this purpose) what/who I was talking about. This whole arguement reminds me of that sillier one, "What is soul". Sure there are those that want to include or excuse themselves from either or both categories for variuos reasons. But come on, we ALL know what the street is and it sure ain't a certain part of town! Let me put it to ya like this, if you have to ask the price of an item ......well. Come on wit now. What is Hip Hop.....please, get out of here, You're makin' me sick up in here. Good post ABM... define ** grabbin' my sack** 
Carey
Carey |
AND ANOTHER THANG
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 07:30 pm: |
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It's not all conclusive either. Just because you "are" doesn't mean you can't also "BE 1or2or3". It depends on who's using the term/words and how it's being used. Right or wrong? |
Question?
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 07:32 pm: |
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What sack? |
One Mo' Thang
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 08:02 pm: |
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Walter got some street up in his books, Ms. Tramble does too, and so does Jervey Tervalon but they are by no means street books. Y'all know what am talking about. My grandfather used to say I had some indian up in me but that don't make me an indian. But if someone was giving away something I could use and asked me if I was an Indian, I'd say, "Yes Sir Chemoosaabay" . Get it? I knew you would (lol). |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 08:41 pm: |
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Wow, Carey, What an astute reponse but still no definitive or concrete defintions of street/hip hop. What you said, made it this all clear as that pile of sh*t, you spoke of. ROFL For something that everyone knows many are having a very difficult time pinpointing this one. Hmmmmm
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:02 pm: |
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Hello All,
Aw Hell, yawl done got my Ol' Grayhead up in here actin' all fiesty and thangs! Yawl goin to make him put in his teeth so he can cuss yawl out right and proper like. *LOL*
That said, as much as I love Carey, I have to disagree with him. I am not clear on the definition of "street" or "hip hop". Earlier when we were discussing literature written in the blues and jazz idiom, we didn't have to define it, true enough, but we were able to say it's this book, this book, or that book. Then we were able to illustrate similar characteristics of the books. No one has been able to do the same for "hip hop". Correct me if I'm wrong, but back in the 70s, didn't an argument, similar to this one being discussed, concerning the literary merits of Donald Goines and Iceberg Slim exist. All though these two authors are the most famous for the then so called "street" books, no one has risen to a status like theirs in today's market. I can't help but have the impression that when people throw around the "street" and "hip hop" tag, they are in essence saying that the books are short and terribly written.
While I'm here, Troy made a valid point when saying that the "hip hop" literature was connected, associated with, or in the same vein as "hip hop" music. Troy you can correct me if I misinterpreted your post. I agree with him. What's the point of saying that a book, for instance, is written in the jazz idiom, if it does not have the lyricism or rhythym of a musical jazz rendition or interpretation? That being said, if anyone labeled a book as being "hip hop" shouldn't we be able to at least indentify the similarities with its musical influence? And then shading the issue a little more, since "hip hop" takes so much from other forms of music; funk, R&B, pop, even classical, old school music, shouldn't these "hip hop" authors sample Richard Wright, James Baldwin, and others? Because I notice that "hip hop" music do not sample bad records or ugly beats or terrible sounding grooves. But many of these so called "hip hop" books have a lot of horrific writing in them. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:46 pm: |
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Now come on Thump, you must be off your diet. Are you taking your water pills? That gut must be pushing your brain to the top of your skull and squeezing off rational thought.
Hey y'all, I love Thump, he knows that. I missed him dearly when he was gone but I think he's missed the mark on this one. Arguement by comparison is an effective tool But your anaogy has a flaw. The borrowed elements of the musical forms you mention are called samples, snippets or riffs. You can not "borrow" or sample "good". So your impression that "street" and/or "hip hop" equates to short and terribly is ahh...ahh...terrible
Dang, got my stupid black butt up in here talking about what it is and what it ain't.
But Thump, you have hit on an important fact that I don't beleive we have covered. The overall theme of the book MUST have consistent essential elements to be defined as "street" and/or "hip hop" but "poor" can not and is not one of them...IMO . |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:54 pm: |
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Thumper: what troy has stated, i've tried to interrogate on the hip hop lit. thread. I basically argued that literary fiction would attempt to render a prose, rhythm, language, etc... of hip hop music.....commercial fiction, on the other hand, would probably limit it to themes within hip hop culture....
Also, i think that we, not me, but we could create a working definition for socalled "street" literature....part of the problem is that though we have GOines and Slim, this genre is still really underdeveloped....consequently, it is difficult to identify a definition. The other problem, i suspect, is that publishing companies label this literature not because it is a legitimate literary genre, but because the label has monetary value within Mass Culture/Media, such as "street" and "hip hop. "
Consider InPrint's January 13th post:
"Tramble's publishing company insisted on the "Hip-Hop Noir" subtitle, against her wishes. It was removed in later additions."
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Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 05:17 am: |
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Hello
If I interpreted Yukio's above (11:54) post correctly, I think she's saying what I tried to say in my getto limited post . Which is, When it's economically benefical to be considered "hip hop", those that can change and be identified/associated with it by whatever mean necessary, do exactly that. It could be a physical or mental change within themselves or the definition "FOR" others. So, that being said, I still believe we all have a "working understanding" of "street" and "hip hop". That clear picture/conception and/or undersatand becomes cloudy when someone seeks to change that view for their own personal gain.
BTW, I must say BRAVO to Yukio. She takes loads of slurs, jabs, snide remarks, also known as "S*&T", either because of her name or her usage of the "English Language". Her concise and sometimes lengthy posts are ofter used as arrows against her. But my girl lifts her chin and head up high and keeps on coming. I bow to you my dear.
Carey
Carey |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 07:00 am: |
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Okay my brotha JTF, I can't swim so ain't gettin' in that boat wit ya. I know you like to do the "back at ya" thing so:
Just The Facts, I can not swim, therefore I am not going to get in that boat with you. I know you like to answer a question with a question, so:
Mr. Facts, given your affinity for confutation ....
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JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 08:55 am: |
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Carey, what in the world are you talking about? Talk about getting into a boat of "confutation," you didn't say the same of ABM when he tried to throw in all those straw men into the discussion.
Just as Yukio alluded to in her last response, I have been asking for us to offer a defintion of these labels. Sure it will be a working definition because I doubt we will nail it on the first try. All we keep getting are titles or authors. But no one has yet listed what are the common elements, themes, characterizations, etc., of those hip hop/street books.
For the record, I am not a brotha.
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Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 10:59 am: |
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JustTheTruth (Now Book Father) was a brotha.
JustTheFacts is his wife.
LOL |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:19 am: |
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All:
OK. I'll bite.
Street book: One dealing with the gritty life of the underworld or the underclass, set in urban America, often involving crime and criminals.
Hip Hop book: One involving hip hop characters (people born between the years 1963-1980 or thereabouts) set in inner city urban areas, featuring hip hop slang or terminology, rapping, tagging, breaking, grafitti or trappings of same. It will often have connections to the street.
Carey:
You are in rare form. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:55 am: |
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Chris what book do you know of that fits your definition of hip hop genre??? The problem is, is that authentic denizens of the hip hop world don't write books.
Doesn't your "street" definition mirror the "noir" category of general fiction? |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 12:55 pm: |
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Cynique:
Most of them have elements of hip hop--Paul Beatty's White Boy Shuffle and Tuff fit in there. Some of Zane's stuff is hip hop.
Most of their books are non fiction. i guess they keepin' it real.
Re street= noir? I will have to think on that aminute. So far everything I have read it does--but waitaminute--what about something like Fly Girl? That was street without being noir. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 01:39 pm: |
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Carey: Thank You! So gracious....btw, i'm working on brevity.
Chris Hayden:
Coherent, workable definitions. I would, however, expand the geography. These white, asian, and latino kids live the hip hop experience as much as some of the black kids...hip hop, at it's roots, has alot to do with being poor and experiencing the street life, which is why the two socalled genres mesh well.....
Cynique:
I don't know if socalled hip hop denizens could write fiction....this is work, as you know....souljah is a denizen, but as you've lamented her writing was wanting.....
Has anyone read Kenji Jaspers last book....i think that was hip hop fiction.
JustTheFacts:
Most literary forms/categories develop over a span of years before they're analyzed, conceptualized, and defined...to be fair, then, we need to work with what we have. As i stated, and perhaps most important, the genre is rudimentary and underdeveloped. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 01:51 pm: |
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I threw those questions out there without a lot of conviction, Chris. Actually, a person could research the hip hop lifestyle and then write a book about it. People do this all the time. And the underlying distinction about "noir" is that it should resonate with a feeling of hard-boiled cynicism and world-weary disillusionment. So I guess some street lit, but not all, could be considered "noir."
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 02:36 pm: |
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I'll bet if you re-wind the clock +50 years, you could observe that much of the content/tone of the criticism we are currently expressing about Street and Hip Hop Lit would sound very familar to that which was asserted about the works of Ellison, Wright, Hurston, Morrison and Walker generations prior.
Langston's Hughes' works, which often centered on the lives of the poor/simple Black foks were regularly derided by White and Black critics as being too simplistic, too rural, too inarticulate. And Hurston's work was similarly assailed.
I wonder. If this change in literary perspective continues, could, by 2040, Iceberg Slim 'evolve' into Richard Wright? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 04:06 pm: |
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Ummmm, I beg to disagree ABM. In the first place, some of the authors you named were from the era of the 30s and 40s and all of them were taken seriously by the literary world. Zora was a victim of sexism, and that was because her male contemporaries were threatened by her potential. I also question as to whether there was ever a time when the work of Langston Hughes was not appreciated for what it was. (As a young writer, he was always winning fellowships and grants.) True, he never made a lot of money but he was always well-respected. Iceberg Slim was also recognized as a legitimate voice of his times, in part because his books were well-written. I even think some of them are on the reading lists of some colleges. |
ABM
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 05:00 pm: |
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Cynique,
You are performing a convenient bit of revisionist history here.
Yes, Hughes works were accepted and lauded by some, but certainly not all. And they certainly had little if any commercial appeal as for all his alleged acclaim, thru much of his career he survive primarily on the gratuity of White noblesse oblige (And I wonder if he would have even gotten that kinda love were he NOT a ‘presentable’ negro who was born/bred by a middle class family and had high-yella skin and straight hair.)
And it’s easy to say NOW, after the Alice Walker lead deification of Hurston, that it was this jealous/evil/oppressive Black male literary establishment that blunted Hurston’s writing. (Though, perhaps it is possible that future champions of Sistah Souljah writing will express similar criticism about the Hip Hop polemics of her day as well.) |
Carey
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 06:54 pm: |
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Okay JTF, I had just come back from playing Bid Whist at my local Esquire Lodge and was feeling a little ...ahh...spunky. My partner, Cut, was telling so many lies that my head was all bad. Sorry |
RED
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 07:23 pm: |
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I asked my son, my daugher and my nephew about who is the best hip hop writer.
They all said Sistah Souljah.
Then again, they never heard of any of the other names like Shannon Holmes that I mentioned.
They claim that everything is hip hop. Books, movie, sports, their whole world.
Go figure.
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Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 08:26 pm: |
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ABM, you are giving Langston Hughes short-shrift. In the first place, he was primarily a poet and his poems about black life have always been held in high regard. His acclaim did not come late in life or did it have anything to do with his appearance or background. It is also common knowledge, as cited in her biographies, that Zora's male detractors did not question her talent but her approach to race. Before Alice Walker REVIVED interest in her, Zora had literary status as a Harlem Renaissance writer and if you ever read any of her books you would realize that her writing stands the test of time. Of course Hughes was also a major figure in the Harlem Renassiance movement and he and Zora didn't earn this status by being hacks. |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 08:46 pm: |
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RED, do your kids embrace the hip-hop lifestyle or do they just observe it in others? If hip-hop is the wave of the future, then we might be in trouble because it is a culture of false values, and one that stifles individuality. Or is it? Maybe someone can convince me otherwise. |
RED
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 10:27 pm: |
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LOL Cynique.
I'm not sure whether my kids are "IN" Hip Hop or just on the sidelines.
Mainly cause (and lets keep this secret)
I still haven't figured out what "hip hop" is other than rap music.
I agree with you though about the destructin its causing. I remember when black people had better outlook than we do know. At least we had each other back in my day.
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yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 03:33 am: |
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damn....you'll act like the past was wonderful, peachy....it is just different....perhaps you could ask your parents what they thought about you and the music you listened to.....
Lets me real....you can not ask a socalled hip hop listener what is hip hop...because they probably haven't thought about it....that is a ontological question...ask them, however, where it was born, who is the best, who is the best lyricist, producer, etc....these are questions that most hip hop heads can answer and i'm not talking about folk with alot of cds.....
I was watching 106 and Park, and they called a mid 90s song "old school." Thats crazy....these teenagers use hip hop, like folk listened to james brown, marvin gaye...now, as listeners could you define what r&b or soul was, maybe a few, but most of you were doing the bump, jammin....etc....
you guys are too smart for ya own good! And i know i'm not one to talk...lmao! |
ABM
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 04:21 am: |
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Why don't you all admit that you have chosen to be ignorant and resentful of what was/is Hip Hop. And to disparage the Hip Hop genre, you have repeated attempted to obscure and distort it in hopes of ultimately illegitimatizing it by attributing only negative characterizations to it or by not-so-subtlely arguing that Hip Hop doesn't even exist.
It's as if some of you older fok's detest Hip Hop so much you wish if you KAHNSINCRATE REAL HARD, maybe 50-cent, Emiminem and Ludacris it would dry up and blow away.
But sorry, foks. Hip Hop is here to stay. And it's only gonna get bigger and better!
There have been many definitions/facets of Hip Hop. Sure, there are some elements that most of us would find distasteful. But there are many others that are quite inspiring and hopeful.
And I always find it interesting when older, more educated and wealthier people decry the failings of those less fortunate without ever considering and mentioning how THEIR own behavior/decisions helped to engender the very situation they now criticize.
Hip Hop, good and bad, is as much a product of what YOU and I have and have not done as it is that of Tupac, P. Diddy and Dr. Dre.
Maybe this is just a generational thing. Because, I don't know if I could adequately 'define' for SOME of you who the The Sugar Hill Gang, Grandmaster Flash, Run DMC, The Fat Boys, Whodini, EPMD, De La Soul, Eric B. & Rakim, KRS1, Heavy D., were and/or what they did/do. But I sure as heck know that what they did was SOMETHING, and it was definitely different from what was being done before they came around and it was REAL.
And really, all of this consternation over what is/not Hip Hop Lit is wholly laughable. I mean, really, is the format of ONE alleged Romance novel EXACTLY the same as EVERY other one? And is every Romance novel solely relegated to that category? Or might said book also have some strong elements of Fantasy...or Mystery...or even Horror?
Of course, by Chris' fitting definition, a Street book may or may not also be considered a Hip Hop book, but they are not necessarily the same. Because not all of Hip Hop is as 'skreet' and gritty as we are lead to believe.
Cynique, an authentic Hip Hop book can center in your affluent (and uppity) Chicago suburb of Winnetka, provided its storyline is true to the genre/style of Hip Hop.
PS: JustTheFacts - I don't have any "straw man" arguments left. But I did portray a very limber scarecrow in my high school's rendition of The Wiz. <<wink!>> |
lurkerette
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 08:27 am: |
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Oh another thing I was going to say in my post on the other thread was that although the points I made can be used as a justification for today's lifestyles, I do think that each of us has to bear responsibility for our actions.
I don't agree with today's blame culture for example 50 Cent's constant mantra about his drug dealing, that he did and will do whatever it takes to ensure him and his family can live well regardless of what damage is done.
ABM those artists you mention were true innovators and had something to say. Their many shoes have only been filled by a few outstanding performers. Remember that song from last year "My neck, my back"? Jeez... Though you probably liked it |
Chris Hayden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:36 am: |
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lurkerette:
I am not going to excuse what 50 cent and them do. I don't want any of mine involved in it. But he ain't blaming anybody, he is calling it like it is.
Maybe you can't agree with what you call the blame culture--I don't call it a blame culture. These rappers are revealing America's dirty little secret--that everybody ain't gonna make it.
I was once counseling a 14 year old boy. He had been caught two weeks before with dope, $400 cash in his pocket. When I talked to him then, he had been caught with dope, $600 cash in his pocket.
I was giving him the whole shpiel. He asked me how much cash I had in my pocket. I had about $20. He said Dad was absent, Mom was on dope, he had younger siblings and it was on him to buy food and keep the lights on and pay the rent.
He told me if I knew somewhere he could lay his hands on that kind of money he'd do it in a minute.
Of course I had no idea. Despite what we like to tell these kids, they don't have room for all of them at college and even if they did a lot of them just can't do it. In my day a guy could drop out high school, eighth grade, third grade, go to work at the packing house, the railroad the steel mill, get a house, car, straighten himself out. All the jobs are gone.
So become computer operators. Become entrepreneurs. Become brain surgeons we yell at them all the while not offering them any jobs or education or money ourselves. Do you think a guy with a 70 IQ is going to college? Do you think a kid with two felony dope convictions is getting hired anywhere? Not in this job market.
Face it. You can probably still stay alive picking up bottles or cans or working Mickey D's. But everything they see on tv tells them that people that do that ain't nothing. There are people who, the only way they are going to ever get a piece of that is to do something illegal. Bottom line. They ain't smart. They ain't courageous. They ain't artistic. All they are is desperate and violent.
Our kids aren't the only ones going for it--latino kids, asian kids--just like Jewish and Italian kids before them peddled bootleg whiskey for rich folk and Irish and German kids stole and rigged elections for them before them.
Get Rich or Die Trying--one of 50 cents songs? Al Capone could have said it. John Dillinger. CAptain John Smith. Christopher Columbus.
This is America. The way 50 and them are living is the way it is SUPPOSED to be. How else our our South American friends to get the money repay the big bank loans made to them by American banks unless these kids in the ghetto sell their cocaine? You think this is something--wait until all the cheap heroin grown by our friends in the Afghan Northern Alliance (the Taliban, by the way had banned opium growing) hits the streets.
The best we can do is keep ourselves, our kids our loved ones out of it--if we can. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 11:41 am: |
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Carey,
You are crackin' me up, dude. I was being serious when I said a few days ago that you have a certain writing style that is engaging.
I agree with you that you'll never catch the very learned Sistah Yukio slouchin' at the keyboard. Sometimes I wish she would undo a button or 2 on her intellectual ‘blouse’ (Or let me do it for her. hehe!). But I guess SOMEBODY’S gottah be mature around deeze parts.
And in responses to your "...define **grabbin' my sack" quip:
The definition of that would depend on which "my sack" you are referring to. Because my grabbin' my OWN "sack" means one thing. My grabbin' YOUR "sack" would mean something totally DIFFERENT.
HAHAHA!!!
Cynique,
I never questioned Zora's "talent". Her place in the American pantheon of literature is earned and secured. I simply stated that even she had her contemporary detractors (some of who, I am sure, thought as much about their criticism of her as you and others seem to convey about Hip Hop & Street Lit.)
And come on now, how highly thought of could Hurston have been in her day by the literary establishment and readers in general if she died abandoned and destitute?
Hip Hop & Street Lit Polemics,
I guess my overriding points on the merits of Street & Hip Hop Lit (however/wherever it is made manifest) are as follows: Too few Black foks (of ALL TYPES) are even reading, much less writing. And if recent book sales trends are any indication, this dearth of literacy will likely worsen. So although I appreciate and share your desire to maintain SOME literary standards, what I fear MOST is the day that an entire generation of Black fok have NO appreciation or consumption of ANY written word.
That OBVIOUSLY would be terrible for our communities and the world at large.
And that wouldn't be all too lovely for all of us who enjoy writing, editing, illustrating, printing, publishing, marketing, distributing, retailing, reviewing, discussing and, most importantly...READING books.
Because I want our future parents, politicians, entrepreneurs and teachers to explore their conscienceless - whether it is via novels, essays, poetry, spoken word...Heck...even graffiti if that's what it takes - I am willing to tolerate their doing such in a manner that is accessible to them. Because I would rather they explore, develop and express their viewpoint, even if it differs greatly from what I know and/or can enjoy, than I would for them to have nothing to think and say AT ALL.
JustTheFacts,
Pull My Finger! HEHEHE! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 12:16 pm: |
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Hip-Hop is its own worst enemy. It will burn itself out and self-destruct. It is a smug, self-absorbed, life style that reeks with materialism and hedonism. Rap will earn a place the annals of music because it is structurally legitimate but hopefully the people who consider themselves hip hop will grow up and broaden their perspectives. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 01:10 pm: |
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Cynique,
And of course Frank Sinatra, Sammy Davis Jr., Miles Davis, Marvin Gaye, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Michael Jackson etc. et al...were NOT "smug, self-absorbed," and did NOT live a life style that "reeks with materialism and hedonism"? |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 01:37 pm: |
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And another thing Cynique,
I'll bet YOUR parents would blame YOU for the lawlessness and lasciviousness that prevails now. After all, wasn't it YOUR generation who introduced the world to a myriad assorted narcotic addictions, "free love", the birth control pill, legalized abortions, welfare, "Junk bonds", no-fault divorce, AIDS/HIV, and even "Disco Duck" for Christ Sake!
It is amazing you Baby Bombers, who remain the most self-deluded of all American generations, continue to pretend NOT to 'inhale' a lot of 'indo' that yawl dun been 'smokin'! |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 02:37 pm: |
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Cynique and ABM:
Though Zora has become the Saint of all Women Artists Who Were Dissed By The Male Establishment fact of the matter is when she wrote those books, good as they are, in the 30's they were as out of date as high button shoes. It would be like trying to get Soul On Ice published now--"Well, sorry Mr. Negro Convict, we don't want to hear your revolutionary proselytyzing now-it's so 60's so 20th Century--write us something about the bling bling. The writers of the 30's were pushing proletarian revolution (read some of Langston's work from that time) like it or not she was at the time passe--
ABM--our parents did and do blame us for the developments of today, and they are right--the hip hoppers are our children--remember all the brothers wearing Superfly coats and hats? Remember Curtis singing about the Pusherman? Remember all those stick it to the man movies?
When we were sitting around, listening to Funkadelic and the Last Poets a friend of mine once opined that the generation following us would make music about things that would repulse us, due to each generation's taking things farther.
I poopooed him. We had gone as far as you could go, I said. Then you get NWA and the Getoboyz. Wow!
Hiphop itself is played out. The hiphoppers don't know it yet. When the best rapper is white (Eminem--and for a while he was, fess up!) and when 50 year old white guys can do passable imitations of Snoop Dogg (I saw it on ShowTime at the Apollo) and when an old codger like me knows the words to some of the rap songs it is over. passe. Not dangerous. Safe as milk.
Kids who will be 14-18 in 2010 will look on hiphop like we looked on 40's swing music.
Each generation demands its own soundtrack. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 03:58 pm: |
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lurkerette: "Remember that song from last year "My neck, my back"? Jeez... Though you probably liked it"
ABM: I remember the song. (And yeah, my lovely lurker', you know me so well. haha!!) I thought the song was more funny than anything else. Though, if the rapper herself looked better, I would have liked it even more...because I would have enjoyed fantasizing about fulfilling the 'requirements' of her song. <<wink!>>
AMEN, Chris!
Dude! That was riveting essay of just how our kids are living out there! I could hear Curtis Mayfield playing in my head as I read your post.
And to add to your instructive commentary/anecdotes, I offer the following:
Last year, I was asked to speak before a class of high school seniors to extol the virtues of education and clean living ["Insert your joke here."]. So for the better part of any hour, I reveled in the splendor of my successes, filling those young, unformed minds with the intrepid details of my greatness.
And after I was done...
<<crickettchirping>>
But, undaunted, I started to asked the high schoolers what they intended to do with their lives. They all slowly, and bored as all get out, gave me their grudged, lightning quick (& canned) responses.
I finally got to one dude that was sort of the leader of a pack 4 - 6 at the back of the classroom. I asked him what was he going to do after he graduates. First he laughed and kinda ignored off. I persisted. He laughed again, gesturing me to leave him be. I PERSISTED. Finally, he looked me in the eyes and said quite bluntly: "Check dis out chief. Dah way dings are out on deeze skreets, I don't even know if I am gonna be 'live tomorrow. So why don't you go deal dat college bulls#$p to someone else. See?"
I admit, what he said and the way he said it momentarily stumped me. And sensing my response, he, his friends, then soon the entire classroom started laughing riotously. The teacher eventually reclaimed control over the classroom, the class period ended and the Hip Hoppers blew by me to the exit as if I reeked of bubbling pustules of the bubonic plague.
I was so pissed, told myself I would never do that again.
But as I was wrapping things up, my antagonist walked up to me, smiled gingerly, shook my hand, apologized and thank me for coming. I think he said something like "Don't let a clown ni&&ah like me sweatchu!" We both headtipped and he caught up with his crew as they existed the room.
After they left, the Teacher told me his brother had been killed a little while ago and he'd been hard to handle every since. And the teacher said that the reason why he and rest of the class laughed when asked about what he'd do after graduation was that everyone in the class knew that although he was the age of a HS senior, he barely had the combined credits of a sophomore.
I jus' keep on hoping that that young brothah don't end up with his brother anytime soon. |
yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 04:23 pm: |
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Irony is amazing...as i read these posts, i find that we've been talking about the same issue on different threads. As usual, you say, then you're quite right...on another thread, can't remember the title at this point, have discussed what Cornel West calls the "nihlism" among the black youth. On this thread, folk have discussed hip hop, and recently ABM, Chris Hayden, and myself on the other thread, have commented on the social conditions....Obviously, the music is a reflection of what this society has to offer, as well as promotes...and this is ugly to many of us...but it is true...black folk, through the auspices of hip hop, underemployment,and mass culture, commodify social relationships(50 cents, snoop and others), others valorize social relationships(Common, Talib Qweli).
Now, i'm not sure if hiphop is played out, as Chris Hayden has argues, though it is certainly on its way. It will return, like all black music does, to its roots, to people who really value the music and it will be primarily social commentary and political.
Eminem is not the sign. That Chris Hayden, is your black nationalism talkin. Eminem is hip hop, the fun, the social commentary, the impoverished background, he endured much of the experiences that produce great lyricist. Of course he is not black, but he was born and bred in the conditions and culture that produced tupac, biggie, Jay-Z, Rakim, KRS-One, Big Daddy Kane, CL SMoothe, Talib Qweli, the MOs Def, Black Thought. These rappers are lyrically serious...either in social commentary, word usuage, etc....Chuck D said, "Cruxifition aint a fiction"...whoa! "CIA ya see i aint kidin"....serious! This will stay with some of us, the storytelling, artistic, unsentimentality of the culture, though the industry and the music may go..... |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 05:03 pm: |
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Carey
Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 01:47 pm:
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ABM........."Pull My Finger". That evoked my first big laugh of the day! Man, as old and silly as that is, it just cracked me up. I think it was because it came out of nowhere. I could see eveybody standing around talkin' all serious, like, "The world's hunger problem"...."Race relations in the U.S. is the central concern of....blah blah blah" ....and you lean over and asks JTF to pull your finger, man, it got me.
Re: "My Sack"...."Your Sack" yeah that's true. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 05:14 pm: |
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ABM, what the heck are you rantin' and ravin' about? Have you lost your train of thought?? You were the one who blamed parents for today's kids. Not me. I don't think the parents have any control over their kids. That's the problem. BTW, my parents never blamed me for anything because my generation didn't regress, we progressed. And, yes, hell-raisers have always been with us. So have wars and plagues and death and taxes. Duh.
So, Chris, do you think Jay Z, who is abandoning his rap career, and P. Diddy, who now wants to be known simply as "Sean", see the handwriting on the wall? As for Zora, she wasn't militant on the subject of race and this was manifest in her work, but I still think she was a significant writer.
Yukio, in the past I've have dismissed Cornel West as being a blow-hard but last night I saw him on Tavis Smiley's show and he articulated the Administration's quest to turn America into an empire with such clarity that I've gained new respect for him.
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 05:30 pm: |
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Hello All,
I hate to be the one to tell you all, but the problems our young people are facing, are the same ones we all have faced. There's nothing different. I went through the same thing in my youth. My father went through his own stuff. Despair is still despair, pain is still pain, heartbreak in the 1920s is still heartbreak in 2004--it all hurts like hell. Through literature, I know that this is true. Take Native Son, for example, do you honestly think that the Bigger Thomas of the world ceased to exist in the 1950s or 60s? None of the rappers or "hip hop" authors are saying anything more significant today than what was said yesterday when Langston Hughes said it, or Richard Wright said it, or Iceberg Slim said it. We all human, and have the same human strength and frailities. We, as human beings in any society, are destined to keep plowing over the same again and again. So, as cynical as it sounds, I ain't impressed with any of 'em because they have yet to come up with something that is brand new.
Second, ABM, I can easily define the different genres of music. Anyone who listens to it can as well. If not able to put it into words, able to illustrate it by putting the music on and showing you what it is. The fact of the matter is, to anything that can be classified or identified, it has to have a structure that is recognizable. The talented will either expand it, contract it, move it any way they wish, but it is still recognized for what it is. Hip Hop literature has yet to be recognizable as such because no structure has been presented to illustrate it. I can't remember who, but someone hit the nail on the head when they wrote that it was the publishing industry defining what "hip hop" literature is and not the authors or the audience. So maybe, as was suggested, we should define it for ourselves and move on. The person was also correct when they said that our knowledge of Iceberg Slim and Donald Goines was part of the problem. I agree with that, but not for the reason they stated (actually, I can't remember them stating a reason for the statement). Slim and Goines are part of the problem because we see their works as fine storytelling. There isn't frills and pretty curlicues to their writing, just straight forward, in-your-face stories that has the capability to fascinate readers then and years after their initial publications. No matter what idiom the author tells his story in, he still has to be able to tell a story PERIOD. It's basic. Now how he does it and with what level of finesse he is able to do it with will seperate the strong from the weak. |
JustTheFacts
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 06:47 pm: |
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yukio:
Most literary forms/categories develop over a span of years before they're analyzed, conceptualized, and defined...to be fair, then, we need to work with what we have. As i stated, and perhaps most important, the genre is rudimentary and underdeveloped.
Yukio, I agree, which is all that I've wanted all along. We have atleast 20 years of involvement and observation of which to start to make an assessment.
Chris:
Street book: One dealing with the gritty life of the underworld or the underclass, set in urban America, often involving crime and criminals.
Hip Hop book: One involving hip hop characters (people born between the years 1963-1980 or thereabouts) set in inner city urban areas, featuring hip hop slang or terminology, rapping, tagging, breaking, grafitti or trappings of same. It will often have connections to the street.
Chris, thank you. I could go along with these definitions. I think I'll try to get some of the authors' books that have been mentioned on the board to see if we're close to the mark.
ABM said:
I mean, really, is the format of ONE alleged Romance novel EXACTLY the same as EVERY other one?
ABM, No, but there are elements that have to present in both. For one, no matter what happens in the book, the guy and girl will be together in the end. There will be a "happy ever after" no matter how many times the relationship seems doomed in the story or goes through its ups and downs. Similiarly, with a mystery. The killer(s) has to be identified by the end of the book. There has to be some resolution of the "whodunit." And, yes some books fall into more than one genre but each genre still have certain elements that must be adhered to.
ABM:
JustTheFacts, Pull My Finger!
No, thanks. You're known to play with yourself. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 11:20 pm: |
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Thumper:
I'm the forgotten one..lmao!
"Also, i think that we, not me, but we could create a working definition for socalled "street" literature....part of the problem is that though we have GOines and Slim, this genre is still really underdeveloped....consequently, it is difficult to identify a definition. The other problem, i suspect, is that publishing companies label this literature not because it is a legitimate literary genre, but because the label has monetary value within Mass Culture/Media, such as "street" and "hip hop."
I didn't mean that Goines and Slim were THE problem...i meant that two author may not be sufficient to define or characterize a literary category....of course, Europeans have characterized RUssian writer Anton Chekhov as the father of the modern short story, but maybe i'm wrong...nevertheless, eventually someone will create a collection of "street" literature, and the introduction will historicize the literary beginnings and characteristics of street fiction, at least that how it usually happens...Thumper, perhaps you and Troy could do this, and have InPrint and other learned literari write the intro...i'd buy it!
JustTheFacts and Others: In this economy, if the genre sells, we'll have a definition in the next few months....i think AALBC should produce or manage this project...i'd even be willing to submit....We could have someone, maybe Chris Hayden/ABM/Thumper write the intro.,explaining the birth of the idea, which was this thread and the conflicts that ensued...sounds good....whatcha think? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:25 am: |
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For the time being can we conclude that all hip hop is street literature, but all street literature is not hip hop?? |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 11:22 pm: |
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Cynique: Sounds good!
Posters:
What about those white kids in middle america, who've grown up with hip hop and are living the trailer version of the black urban experience?
Also, what about the AALBC publishing street fiction?
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 03:11 am: |
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Carey,
Yeah, that "Pull My Finger" chestnut is a timeless classic. Ain't it? It's kinda like the "Ol' Faithful" geyser: No matter how old it gets, it always seems to works. HAHAHA!!!
Cynique,
Your statement "my generation didn't regress, we progressed" is PART of the Black Baby Boomer delusion. How did your generation progressed when after ALL your marching, voting, sit-ins, boycotts, good paying jobs, college degree, et al. we Blacks have 13% of the nation's population and less than 2% of its wealth (And that's even after you count Oprah's Billion bucks.)?
How many of the Blacks Hip Hoppers whom you decry so are the products of Boomer parents/grandparent who failed them? And how many of them failed in part because those of you who did garner some modicum of 'success' could/would not create/own/run businesses that could have helped provide greater opportunities for those less talented/fortunate than themselves?
And BTW, much of the reason why Hip Hop is dark is because many older (Boomer) Black music executives refused to go to bat for the genre while it was in its nascent stage (Hip Hop godfather Russell Simmons has spoken in length/depth about this.). As the result of the lack of support from those of us good Black foks, many rappers turned to unsavory Whites, Jews, gangstas and drug dealers for backing. And they were, of course, people who where much more interested in turning a fast buck than they were in maintaining any high moral character/standing within the Black music/culture.
Thumper,
I understand what you mean by every generation having their 'portion' to contend with. However, I think the biggest difference between today and yesterday is the real and growing divide among major segments of the Black community, including the widening chasm of Black women attending college and obtaining good employment options vs. that of Black men and increasing numbers of Black men doing serious prison time - almost permanently marring their employment options and losing their right to vote. 'Tis not to say there wasn't some stratification among us in prior generations. But it was not to the degree that it is now.
Also, our young generation has one Devil whose enormity threatens to eclipse even that of Slavery itself...AIDS/HIV.
Really, the whole Hip Hop, Street Lit issue is mute. Bottomline: Foks should/will read what they want to. All I'm saying about Hip Hop, Street Lit is if the baby wants/tries to walk, why should we ridicule/disparage her just because as she learns she's gonna have to stumble/fall every now/then.
Yukio says: "What about those white kids in middle america, who've grown up with hip hop and are living the trailer version of the black urban experience."
ABM: "If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a ....."
JustTheFacts: "No, thanks. You're known to play with yourself."
ABM: What's wrong, Baby? You want me to scrub my hands first? |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 11:39 am: |
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ABM:
I tend to agree with your analysis. I think we failed to see ourselves as a cultural nation within a nation. Once desegregation occurred, it seems like we forgot that we had a culture, that we are a "people," that there was something to preserve. We've been terribly miseducated, and while many have struggled, those who did often failed to pass down their tradition of struggle and cultural integrity..This is the product of the real class tensions that were always within the black community. Once folk were able to leave, they left...but their skills, the institutions they as well as the working class nurtured also left...Ok, i'm tryin to be brief...this is my abbreviated internal analysis of the black community...of course there is the external forces...but that has been said, many, many times before!
I'm serious, not only african cultures, but most cultures believe that it is fundamental to pass their culture to their progeny...and this is taught, but unfortunately, although we have a culture, which we lived, spoke, prepared food, praised god with, we didn't realize its value...i think we need to begin again to speak to eachother as a people...we need to tell these kids who they are...they are african, jamican, dominican, us black....nigerians are african american, jamaican....we need to replace these "animalistic" values with progressive ones...
we need to teach them the value of community service, education, how to love, to appreciate and love themselves and their and others humanity!
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 04:39 pm: |
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ABM, there's just one problem with the lecture you've taken upon yourself to give me. I am not a baby boomer. |
Mike E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 04:50 pm: |
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Back to street lit ; does any one remember Nathan Heard the author of Howard Street and other novels about "street life". |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 08:25 am: |
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Chris Hayden, thanks for your passionate response. However I was talking about 50 Cent, not the life of a powerless 14 year old. Sorry if I didn't make myself understood.
Let me be brief, I don't want any eyes glazing over. 50 cent no longer has to do whatever it takes and should stop pretending that he does. Although you could argue that he will rhyme about his life experiences, he could frame it in a different context and not glorify it. There are other artists who are willing to take responsibility for the effect their lyrics have on their audience.
The beautiful Missy Elliott in her recent album had one song that had lyrics about how what you have and how much you make doesn't make you a good or bad person. If more artists had her spirit it might make a difference. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 02:27 pm: |
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Lurkerette (my 'Pet' <<wink!>>),
I too wish the tone of popular Hip Hop music (HHM) were lighter, more uplifting. I welcome the Elliot and others attempt to broaden its lyrical content.
But we've got to consider that HHM, good/bad, is a grassroots music. It's from the "the Hood". Music companies are (or maybe WERE) making too much money perpetuating the negative to promote the positive. So any change in the general tone of the genre will likely have to come from the bottom up. For it is ONLY there where a change can occur.
Perhaps the best way that WE can abate the negative is to ourselves support the positive.
You know, I am still young enuff to remember what HHM REALLY is. It's not just Biggie, Tupac, 50-cents, the Ghetto Boys, Ludacris, DMX and Eminem/Dr. Dre. No. HHM is a 'beat', a 'rhythm' that reflects the inherent 'pace' of the lives of young Black people who were born from a particular time/place. And if the music reflects that 'pace', if it 'sounds good", eventually many young fok's will listen to it, regardless of what is being rapped.
And there are many subgenres of HHM, some of which are very inspiring, even salvational. So maybe we should find/promote music that fit within those models.
Sharing many of the concerns/criticism expressed here, a few years back, I decided to broaden my perspective of HHM. So I researched, then bought some Christian rap for my teenage daughter to listen to. At first, she resisted listening to it because she was unfamiliar with the artists. So, I would just play it around the house, at her sleepovers/houseparties, and even in the minivan while I ferried her/friends to/from assorted teenage outings. Now, they LOVE IT and she and her friends buy and listen it without my having to urge them to.
'Tis not to say they won't listen to 'fitty'-cent also (mostly when I'm NOT around). But at least they can enjoy some diversity, some balance to HHM. They now know HHM is NOT only about thugs, hoochies and bling-bling.
Because more than anything else HHM is about the 'beat'!
BTW: Don't worry about posting a lengthy response, lurkerette. Because it usually takes about a fifth of whiskey for my eyes start "...glazing over". HAHAHA!!! |
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