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Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 04:07 pm: | 
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I am just starting a topic because I have a few idle minutes and nothing else to do since the kids are driving me nuts and I can't write when they are so active.
I have seen (just about everywhere)other books being compared to The Coldest Winter Ever. You see it on the back cover of books, you see it on web sites, you see it in emails and you see it on boards like this.
I personally LOVED the book and even drove it over to my sister's house for her to read after I was done with it. I had just finished writing Shame on it All (this was a few years back) and I told her to read The Coldest Winter Ever before she read mine.
Now, I have not read all of the "street novels" that have come out recently but of the ones I have read, in my opinion they were nothing like The Coldest Winter Ever. I am not saying they are better or worse, but they are certainly not the same. Sistah Souljah is a deep individual and if you have not read her non-fiction book No Disrespect, you are missing a treat. Because of her "deepness" for lack of a better word, I would expect nothing less from a novel she has written. This is certainly not a new genre because Donald Goines was and will forever remain the man. I can't wait for the DMX/Goines movie to come out later this year because a Goines movie is long overdue.
So my two questions are:
1. Do you think The Coldest Winter Ever is greatly responsible for the rebirth of street novels?
2. What do you think about authors being constantly compared to other authors (myself included because more and more books are being compared to a Zane book)?
Peace,
Zane |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 04:43 pm: |
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Zane, many of the authors, and their publicists, compare themselves to other authors. However, as a reader, I think we are always comparing the recent read book to previous read books. We even compare one author's book against the other books that author has written.
When we are asked to make list of our favorites, we really are making a comparsion. One book against the others. |
ABM
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 04:45 pm: |
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Zane,
Over the years, Souljah's novel has been a popular topic of discussion here. If you enter Souljah (or maybe Soulja) in this site's Search menu (top right corner), you will find some very interesting discussions about Souljah and The Coldest Winter Ever.
Like you, I enjoyed The Coldest Winter Ever and look forward to her next novel.
And I will respond to your questions a bit later. |
Marilyn
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 06:14 pm: |
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Hey Zane first of All I want to say I'm a huge fan of yours. Girl I loved ADDICTED. I read it like 3 times but There's one street novel out there you have to read if you haven't already. Entangled. It is hot, Im telling you It's not the Coldest Winter Ever because they are two diffrent stories and two diffrent writing styles but The story is very suspenseful and the brother put it together well. I thought a woman wrote it at first but K. Elliott is a man who can write and put you in the mind of a drug-dealer a female history teacher who is in love with the dealer and a undercover cop. He does it so well. If you get a chance check it out but maybe you've read it already. But this is my take on the street novels. Coldest winter ever set the bar but Entangled in my opionion reached that bar not passed it but certainly reached it. But Sister Souljah is responsible for the rebirth of street novels and Coldest Winter held the crown for a long time but In my opionion and its just an opionion Entangled is the new hot one. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 01:09 am: |
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For the life I me I could never understand why people were so blown away by the "Coldest Winter." It reminded me a little bit of Omar Tyree's book "Flyy Girl" which I never even bothered to finish. I guess I just can't get into shallow characters or thin, implausible story lines; and the fact that these books are "street" lit does not excuse their authors from not giving dimension to their characters and substance to their plots.
I also think that any author who writes in a certain genre will inevitably be compared to others who write in this same vein. For better or worse.
I recently read "Nervous" and I could appreciate this book for what it was. It entertained me on a certain level, the way a porn movie would. I knew what to expect right from the first page and I wasn't disappointed. |
Radiah
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 08:04 am: |
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Zane,
I love your books by the way. Here are the answers to your questions. Although Donald Goines has been around for years, I don't think street novels became popular again until the "Coldest Winter Ever". I didn't read "Coldest Winter" until a few years after it was out. I really liked it and passed it on to a few of my friends. I read a variety of books and even the street novels. I do think that now there are too many street novels out now. As to your second question, I think authors being compared to other authors can sometimes help a consumer decide if a book by a new author is worth purchasing. For example, if a author is compared to say Eric Jerome Dickey then the publisher is hoping that EDJ's fan will read that author's book also. However, I've found this practice very misleading. Before I read "True to the Game" by Terri Woods, all I kept hearing from different ads,co-workers, and book club members is if you like "Colder Winter Ever" you'll like this book. Well, I hated "True to the Game". I thought that it was trying was too hard to be "Coldest Winter" and failed. |
Let's Get Serious
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:33 am: |
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Cynique, you might do well to pick up "Coldest Winter Ever" and read it again. It's the defining book of a genre for good reason.
I think the reason Souljah's book resonates with millions is because it was obviously written from the depths of her heart. The author had been a star rapper, hip hop insider and was publicly denounced by President Clinton. Anyone who has read the brilliant "No Disrespect" (Souljah's life story) would know what a brilliant, talented Highly Educated voice she is, representative of today's youth culture.
"Coldest Winter Ever" was startling true to life, exceptionally insightful and very well executed.
I'm surprised that Cynique found the book so empty and missed out on Souljah's storytelling skills, which really do sneak up on you.
When I finished that book, I couldn't stop thinking about it for weeks. It was so tragic! The fate of both Winter and her mother haunted me, because I knew it was a reality for so many of our people nowadays.
The book also had a central male character, Midnight, who was a good strong black man with a lot of integrity and depth. It was refeshing to read a book that wasn't black male bashing.
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:06 pm: |
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Bravo, Let's Get Serious!
Although "The Coldest Winter Ever" had some deficiencies, I found it to be well worth the read (See my more thorough opinion in http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/672.html?1073752611.).
Although, strangely enuff, I found Souljah's writing style to be so lean, abrupt and aloof, that I might have guessed that it were written by a man. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:36 pm: |
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Well, Folks, I guess this all boils down to taste.
I am familiar with Sisa Soljah's background, and if I hadn't been, I could've found out all I cared to know about her because she continually disrupted the storyline by injecting her situation into it. To me, this mundane book was more of a documentary rather than a novel. The characters were "types" not individuals, the details were repetitive and the plot non existent.
And there was inconsistency to the first person narratives; "street" vernacular one minute and the speech of an intellectual philosopher the next, the latter which was totally out of character for the protagonist. The only outstanding thing I can say about this book was that I didn't care what happened to anybody in it. And the reason I didn't like the characters was not because of what they were, but because the portrayals of them had no depth, which, in turn, discouraged my empathy. The imperfections of a character can be compelling, but in this book they were just disgusting. And the hip-hop setting did nothing to promote this lifestyle as a way of life to be aggrandized. Um, did I mention that I didn't like the book? LOL |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 02:30 pm: |
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You are right, Cynique: A lot of this is about "taste". But it is also about the purpose of the story. "The Coldest Winter Ever" does not at all intend for hip-hop to be "aggrandized". FAR from that, is being asserted. Actually, the book is a hip-hip version of a fictional nightmare.
I agree with much of your (and others) negative descriptions of Souljah's book (although apparently they were more important to you than they were to me). I understand and initially concurred with your righteous disdain for the characterizations in the book. But in retrospect, I wonder whether THAT was exactly the sentiment that Souljah was trying to convey. Maybe Souljah indeed wanted you to HATE virtually everybody/everything within the book.
Consider the book's main character. The person a reader usually presumes to be the novel's 'heroine', has been born/bred by someone who has for decades dealt drugs and who likely would have 'boned' scores of skanky women, engendered illegitimate children everywhere, sold out friends to cops and killed people. So how can you tell an honest and effective story without including a moral compass that is grossly skewed?
And, sadly, the thoughts and behaviors of Souljah's characters that you deem worthy of revulsion mirror those of countless real people.
Souljah did an effective job of holding a critical mirror to the faces of a generation of people who have been bred to think/act as though everyone and everything is to be 'used', 'had', 'screwed', 'abused' and 'dumped'.
I concede to you that from a "traditional" literary standpoint, "The Coldest Winter Ever" was a bit wanting.
But basically, I came away from the book with the sentiment of Souljah saying, "Look, you heartless, greedy, selfish SOB's; no matter who you are, how cute, smart and 'paid' you think you may be; if you don't get your program together and start thinking/acting more righteously, this is how you will end up!"
PS: I agree with you that Souljah should not have injected herself in the storyline. But I credit that tacky bit of self-promotion in part to her SUPER self-glorifying boss (the then) "Puffy" Combs. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 03:06 pm: |
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damn....i've still not read the book....gotta get this done for the month of January...i guess this is my first literary or commericial resolution. |
I.R.T.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 04:27 pm: |
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I disagree with both Cynique and ABM about Souljah inserting herself as a "character" in the book. I thought this is what made the story REAL to the hip hop fans who read it...it was more like a "memoir" than just fiction once she became involved. Her charcter also imparted a lot of wisdom.
Only a HIP HOP INSIDER like Souljah would be allowed to rip apart the hip hop culture and portray it as "destructive, unhealthy".
Second...It was totally refreshing to read a book full of Anti-heroes!! That's why the book is now being studied in college courses rather than forgotten.
The book showed the Hip Hop world as being filled with immature, greedy, shallow despicable people (**Just like real life!).
It was like one big music video full of assholes.
Especially appreciate the part where the women had to "audition" to be in the music video!! That was incredible.
Souljah is much better writer than you guys give her credit and this book was a perfect Hip Hop novel, a groundbreaker!
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 06:57 pm: |
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As I said before, I have no problem with flawed characters; they are usually what makes a book interesting. But I do have a problem with flawed characterzations. I realize that I'm in the minority in not particularly liking this book, and I think a lot of my resistance to its "appeal" is that the hip hop community uses it as its "bible" and I continue to wonder why everyone is so taken with what amounts to nothing more than a slice of "thug" life. Maybe if someone could ever come up with a clear-cut definition of what hip-hop is and why it should be touted, then I would see the light. Also what is the alternative to the hip-hop lifestyle as it relates to the younger generation? Is it the community of black youth who don't think that it's hip to dumb??? |
JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 08:28 pm: |
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ABM wrote:
PS: I agree with you that Souljah should not have injected herself in the storyline. But I credit that tacky bit of self-promotion in part to her SUPER self-glorifying boss (the then) "Puffy" Combs.
You think that was done due to Puff's suggestion? Or just being around him, it rubbed off onto her?
P.S. I read the book years ago too, but I lean more towards Cynique's sentiments than others. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:25 pm: |
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Cynique
We don't agree very often but I'm with you on this one. I particularly liked this statement "I realize that I'm in the minority in not particularly liking this book, and I think a lot of my resistance to its "appeal" is that the hip hop community uses it as its "bible" and I continue to wonder why everyone is so taken with what amounts to nothing more than a slice of "thug" .
That's it! It kind of reminds me of the hoopla generated by the movie New Jack City. I'm a movie buff, I enjoyed the professional elements of the movie (ie. acting, direction, muscial score) but I question the message.
I have a similar disdain for the motives and messages behind Denzel and Halle's reciept of the Oscar for roles of a dirty low down cop and a tramp Skizzer.
Think about it. It's Black History Month, a time to champion our successful black brothers and sister. Your son or daughter comes home from school and says they watched Denzel do dope, Halle do the wild thang (doggie style) and listened to readings from Souljah's book ( baby popped out of momma's Koochi). I know, I know but am just saying.....
It must be a generation thang as one postee stated. Call me an old time square, buster, or mark but I ain't down wit it.
Thanks Cynique for staying true to the REAL game.
I'm starting to like you, are you married 
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Cynnara
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:51 pm: |
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**Hi all, I'm new. My name is Cynnara Collins. Glad to jump right in regarding a book I just read last week and really enjoyed!!
I don't know what book Carey and Cynique read.
"Coldest Winter Ever" basically trashed hip hop urban culture and showed it for what it is...
1) Materialistic
2) Misogynist
3) Selfish
4) Dangerous
5) Stupid
The book is NOT a "hip hop Bible". It's an expose on the rotten "types" of people that are created by Bling Bling living, plus it shows how black people sell out for exactly what IN PRINT called "poor folks desire to identify with being a HAVE instead of a Have Not". As the book so eloquently showed, there is a lot of unsung character and honor in being a Have Not.
Sistah Souljah is really a Civil Rights activist in "hip hop" clothing. She used her status as a rap diva/radical thinker to expose what a waste of life the 80's and 90's were to black youth coming of age in those urban hip hop hoods.
Carey, Cynique, Just the Facts and others surprise me, because they clearly have not read the entire book.
The moral of the story was a powerful, poignant one--Sistah Souljah is obviously disappointed with rap culture and the "types" it creates.
Plus as somebody already pointed out, Souljah's insider status allowed her to call a spade a spade without the hip hop establishment crying foul.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:25 am: |
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Well, Ms. Carter, Sista Soulja's intentions may have been honorable, but I maintain that the hip hop coummunity has co-opted this book and revere it as a right-on depiction of the hip hop lifestyle. And, I think your attempt to do damage control for this woman is missing the mark. The reason she was ostracized by various activist groups was because she publicly advocated black people going out and killing whites. That's how she got in trouble with the liberal Clinton administration. And if what you say about the motivation of the book is true, then hip hop really is a negative way of life, and I am justified in putting it down, something I have never heard the best-selling Sista Soulja do because she has apparently be co-opted by financial gain. Finally, my gripe with this book has not necessarily been its message, but the author's deficient writing skills. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:47 am: |
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Why Carey! You leave me speechless. (Quite an accomplishment) ;) |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 01:04 am: |
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Oops I should've addressed my response about sista soulja to Ms. Collins, not Ms. Carter. |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 07:47 am: |
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There are two different issues here - the author's writing skills (terrible) and the message she is trying to convey.
If I want a polemic, I wouldn't buy a novel, I would get me some non-fiction.
I dislike being beaten around the head with a message. But if there is a message an author wants to bring to the readership, it should at least be done with flair and style and more subtly.
Take Walter Mosley's Socrates Fortlow books, there is plenty of social commentary in there, but he doesn't lead us around by the nose and stick it right where it smells because he trusts us to find the source of the stink ourselves.
re Zane's question - you will always get authors compared to others, it's just another lazy way of selling books. Instead of in-depth critique you get a cliche. There's not really anything wrong with that IMO, as long as it's roughly accurate. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 11:35 am: |
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Oh come now, lurkerette. I agree that Souljah is at least 5 - 10 books away from even being considered a worthy successor to Toni Morrison. But "terrible"? I think not. "The Coldest Winter Ever" was more than adequate for what it was intended to accomplish and who it was intended to reach.
Name any great book (or any "terrible" book for that matter), and I will show you one that is strongly arguing for or against some perspective or another. In fact, it is difficult for any novel to be truly good without arguing a definable point or morality.
And here's the problem with your Walter Mosley comparison: A high percentage of the foks who have/will read "The Coldest Winter Ever" have never even HEARD of Walter Mosley, much less be familiar with, particularly interested in or capable of adequately discerning and appreciating the "social commentary" that Mosley' so skillfully illustrate in his "Socrates Forlow" books.
You have got to consider the audience. If one is writing to impress many of us +30-year-old, uppity, middle-class, college-grad, wannabe intellectual-types; I concede the "The Coldest Winter Ever" likely won't rate as our literary cup-of-tea. But frankly, the book was not written primarily for us. It was written for those people who might not otherwise read a novel at ALL. |
PassingThrough
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:39 pm: |
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ABM, isn't it one's opinion of what the author's intentions were or even the intended audience? You are speaking in absolutes as if you're the one who can determine an author's intentions with their book or even who the intended readership should be/is. Isn't it really based on "your" reading of a book and every one doesn't read any one novel the same way.
And, does anyone have any data to support all these claims, such as, who is reading or buying what book? Does the publishers or bookstores collect such data, like age, gender, economic level, etc., of the book buyer?
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:50 pm: |
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Of course I am "speaking in absolutes", PassingThrough. After all, I am the Great-n-Powerful ABM! |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 03:58 pm: |
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Ok PassingThrough,
You are right. I should play fair.
I don't know enuff about Sistah Souljah to be absolutely assured of her "intentions". And I certainly can't recite any of her book sale statistics. But the vernacular/tone/delivery of "The Coldest Winter Ever" made it quite clear to me who she had written the book for.
And here is what I also know about Sistah Souljah:
1) She was one the first, and still is acknowledged as perhaps the most controversial hardcore female rapper. Souljah was so strident in some of her commentary that while then Arkansas Gov. Bill Clinton was running for the '92 presidency, he referenced to some of her inflammatory commentary to scare "suburban soccer moms" to vote for him.
2) She runs a youth center for poor, inner city youth in NYC.
3) She also earns a living giving speeches promoting political activism and reform among/within Black youth, the inner cities and the Hip Hop community.
So based what I DO know about her, whom should I assume she would write her very first novel for, to and about: Educated Manhattan Buppies and BAPS or Under-educated Bronx B-Boys/Girls? |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 04:07 pm: |
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Cynique, Again your post was on target! Your point addressing Soulja's "intentions" hit the mark. Also, Ms. Collins is obviously speaking from her perspective and not the individuals ABM spoke of in his 11:35am post. Unless of course she fall's into that catorgory which I chose to believe is not the case.
Dang girl, you keep it up and I'll be askin' for those digits . |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 06:26 pm: |
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Hiiiii Carey,
Askin for my digits, huh. Do you have a foot fetish?? LOL! Seriously, I'm glad our interaction has mellowed out. |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 10:57 am: |
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ABM, each to his own. I take your point, but that still doesn't mean I have to call it literature or to like the thing.
Again, let me say that if I want to be preached at, I will go and see the Rev Al Green rather than waste several hours of my life reading a badly written treatise with weak characterisation and a plot straight out of central casting.
If what Cynique says is true and this book is being heralded as some kind of Heroic Epic for the new Millenium, then the message we think Souljah intended to bring to her audience hasn't even managed to come across (If they think Winter and her family are some kind of cool).
OK, can we just agree that I am not in the target audience, although I sincerely hope I'm not a wannabe intellectual
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 12:52 pm: |
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I think it is a bit insulting to young Hip Hoppers to assume that they can’t discern or have ignored the real meaning/intent of "The Coldest Winter Ever". It is quite possible that the book is being lauded by the Hip Hop community because it candidly conveys the very the criticism/admonishments that many of YOU ardent Hip Hop critics/polemics share.
Honestly, if you think the majority of Hip Hoppers see "The Coldest Winter Ever" as a glossy, glamorization of Hip Hop and the Inner City; you must either have not clearly read the book, you haven’t accurately witnessed what has ensued from it or you have such an intractably negative perspective about that world, that there is likely very little that I or anyone else can say/do to convince you otherwise.
I too am inured in the classical traditions of literature. Thus, there’s little I would or could do to defend "The Coldest Winter Ever" from a traditional literally perspective.
But I wonder if what is at issue here is NOT just what is and isn’t worthy literature.
Perhaps we also reject "The Coldest Winter Ever", Souljah and the world she describes/champions/criticizes for reasons that we won’t admit. Maybe many of us AUTONOMICALLY response to Hip Hop, the Inner City and the world of young Blacks as a whole in much in the same way that Whites, bourgeois Blacks and even ‘Super Blackman’ Rev. Jesse Jackson has on occasion admitted to doing...with fear, resentment and dread.
And my Dear lurkerette, do you prefer not to be a "wannabe intellectual"? If so, why? Because an "intellectual" is something that I surely ‘wannabe’. <<wink!>> |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 12:36 am: |
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I would add to ABM's comments. As i mentioned/suggested in the socalled hip hop literature thread, the hip hop community is diverse and intelligent. If we contextualize this conversation into of the essential elements of literature--character development--then perhaps we could appreciate the hip hop community, or any group for that matter. It seems, because of generational, cultural, regional, class, many folk essentialize the hip hop community. In good literature, characters are usually mult-dimensional. Is it not possible that real people, in this case folk in the hip hop community, are indeed multidimensional? I would say yes.....Cynnara Collins'commments may be true for her and even an accurate depiction of hip hop, but it is not the only nor the complete characterization of hip hop. Indeed, if we consider some of the music that we love, albeit blues, jazz, and r&b, at some time or another black folk had made similar comments about these musical forms. And indeed, within each form, there is a diversity of styles, genres, motifs, etc..... |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 09:25 am: |
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Of course Yukio and ABM, any community will have diverse elements and to make sweeping statements is flip and inappropriate and I should have taken more care to elaborate. My comment was based on Cynique's observations about the book, I don't know how much those were based on hearsay. In my personal experience, the lifestyle portrayed in CWE is really something that young people aspire to though. No, I don't think they are all stupid, but I do think that the current social climate encourages non-critical thinking and buying into trends, more so now than even in the money grabbing eighties.
In fact ABM I do enjoy some hip hop, but mainly the "soft" stuff, I think the yunguns call it "conscious rap". My favorite album at the moment is in fact the Outkast double, so I do have some knowledge. I still don't like the damn book.
And isn't it part of my job as someone on the wrong side of thirty to not understand the younger generations (I wouldn't go as far as to say I consider them with dread) I would be spoiling all their fun in being rebellious if I was anything but non-understanding.
Oh, I would rather be a bona fide intellectual than a wannabe...but I have a looooong way to go and when I read Yukio's and that guy Steve's posts I wonder about myself. But a girl can live in hope. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 01:47 pm: |
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Although we apparently disagree abit on this subject, lurkerette, I must say I genuinely appreciate your willingness to engage me on this issue as I think it transcends literature.
What we are really talking about here is how do we resolve a gaping and growing chasm that threatens to tear the AA community apart. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 02:10 pm: |
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ABM:
Surely it isn't that bad. |
Katrina M.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 05:09 pm: |
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UHH, yeah Chris. I would agree it's that bad.
I live in the hood. Most people are decent, but they also look the other way while unspeakable things are going on.
It's a really bad time to be young and black in Black America. I hear that all the time from the kids I work with. They're like a sex animals and deliquents compared to when I was their age.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 07:41 pm: |
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Katrina M.
I live in the "hood" too, and I find your language, "sex animals," and "delinquents" unnecessary. I cringed when i read your post.... These types are always in poor communities, but are they unique? if you're comparing these kids to your youth then should you also consider the different conditions under which they live? Besides, expressing their experiences, how much more can these kids tell you? And when you were at their age, did you thing about these issues? WHere you sophiticated and conscious enough to understand these issues, beyond what you saw?
Is it really a bad time to be young and black in Black America? I would argue that it has never been good to be young and black in America.
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Katrina M.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 09:46 pm: |
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I didn't say it's a bad time to be black in America.
Go back and read what I wrote.
As far as sex animals...I stand by that demeaning description, because to me, that's the level of humanity these kids are operating on. They might as well be dogs and sheep. They talk about "Licking each others buttholes!!" like its the latest dance craze. Only animals lick each others anus.
Only "delinquents" call their mothers "black ass bitch" when she comes to the school to check on her child and tries to offer support to her kids. I see this everyday!
Have you seen these girls on the corner with baby on their hip? Girls no more than 12, 13 and 14!
That's delinquent!
If you try and bond with them, they say, "Talk to the hand..I'm not trying to hear that."
How can you reach people who distrust anyone who has a job and an I.Q. over 69?
I also get tired of working to make the "hood" a better place, trying to get kids to read books and all they want is to bring me down to their level.
I paid one girl's rent for two months. She turns around and calls me a "siddity yellow trick". Accuses me of thinking I'm better than her.
I did NOTHING to that girl. Nothing but try to help her.
I stand by my words, Yukio.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:14 pm: |
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Katrina M:
Lets compare our statements, ok?
You state:
"It's a really bad time to be young and black in Black America."
I state:
"Is it really a bad time to be young and black in Black America? I would argue that it has never been good to be young and black in America."
For what reasons you say:
"I didn't say it's a bad time to be black in America.
Go back and read what I wrote."
Neither did I....what are you talking about? You should go back and read what i wrote....
With that out of the way, I feel and identify with some of your experiences, my point was that your characterization is only accurate for part of the black youth in the "hood, " and two, that when you were their age, there were young boys and girls doing the same things these kids are doing today....their language and the clothes are different, but their actions were the same. There have always been, what they called in my day, "fast" girls and "hoodlums."
Of course, the fact that these types of kids have been around doesn't make their behavior acceptable. But your characterizations, however accurate, doesn't make it acceptable for you to call them "animals." I suspect that you're probably a bit uppity...that you probably come off as condescending....is this not possible? Could both of you be correct as well as both wrong.....is there a gray area that you could meet?
If the answer is no, and if you're a teacher, you might want to work in another district or seek another profession, because if you're characterizing these kids as animals then you can't teach them anything and they'll can't learn anything from you...it is a two-way street...
Forgive me...no disrespect was intended in the initial post and none in this one. Lets read a Percivial Everett'novel together!?
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:35 pm: |
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Katrina M:
We both made a mistake! Sorry for misquoting you!
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Katrina M.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:37 pm: |
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Yukio, I'm not a teacher. I volunteer as a counselor for a women's outreach program. I've been doing that for 5 years. I'm 27.
Sure we can read a Percival Everett novel, but not right now, because I've just started on two other books.
I said that the kids SAID...that it's a bad time to be Black youth in America. That's their "excuse" they give for being so bad. They claim "it's a bad time to be black in America."
I certainly remember "fast girls" and "hoodlums" when I was a teen growing up in the ghetto...but I never saw guns in my school, I never saw students slap the teacher or worse...pull knives on their mothers in the Principal's office.
I never saw grown men openly dating 13 yr. old girls with their mother's permission. Which causes male teachers to say, "Well let me get some too."
Things are MUCH worse than they ever were and because most people don't really care, it will be even more horrible in the next generation.
That's why I'm not having kids.
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Katrina M.
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 11:38 pm: |
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That's OK Yukio. I have to go to bed right now, but it's been nice "venting" to someone who cares.
Nite
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 12:01 am: |
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Karina M:
Gotcha! Good night! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 12:16 am: |
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I know where Katrina is coming from, Yukio. Yes, some young people are worse than others, but - all of them are tolerant of what the worst of them do. |
idrissa
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 08:54 pm: |
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What I am seeing at the age of 50 with a lot of years of community activism and working with youth behind me.....is a different breed of young people.
There is so much loss of respect for what is good and moral. No respect for themselves, the community or their elders. They know it all and prefer the thug life that they dwell in. Yes; there were always "fast" girls who had babies too soon but most times these girls grew up and tried to do something postive with their lives...tried to raise their kids to want more in life. I don't see that as much as I used to.
I'm seeing generation after generation of Black folks who just don't get it . . .just don't care anymore and will hate you for trying to help them. I never thought (coming of age in the late sixties) that I would feel this way. The kids I mentored in the late seventies can not relate to their peers . . .'cause most of them are still "out there". They miss living in their own communities because they are tired of their peers stealing their cars and breaking into their homes while they are at work. So they buy their houses in another community and raise their kids in suburbia. They miss out on the "family" that existed in Black communities when they grew up. It is so much harder to be young, gifted and Black in America than ever before; I do believe.
And what do we do about it? Sadly; I don't know. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 03:14 am: |
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Idrissa and Cynique:
I agree with the characterizations, but what has not been addressed is HOW did this occur? In order to effectively answer this question, and i won't try, one needs to investigate and analyze not only the children, but their parents, the conditions under which these families live, societal change(economic, social, cultural, and poltical power), and how power is achieved and passed on...this is very complicated, i think...what happened to the black family, internally and externally? What happened to community institutions? Why the crime...are we biologically criminal? Is it nature or nurture, a combination? Does it have anything to do with the economy...no tradition of work at the home, etc.....
None of this has been addressed. At this point, we have only agreed that these kids are disrespectful and animals.
As in most problems, i think we, the socalled black community, can share responsibility for some these conditions, and we can give the rest to the structural matters, such as race, gender, class, and culture.
This is my short reply...i've working on it, Chris Hayden.
Oh, what do we do about it....create new strategies of communication...if these kids are so different then you can not use old methods...also, and this is a problem in my opinion, many folk expect to be respected....that would be nice, but if you're trying to help folk then its not about you....also, they probably don't know what respect is, nor what to respect...this too needs to be taught...values are taught....we are, in other words, wagging our fingers about the younger generation, but i'm in my early 30s....no children, socalled educated, and i'm from the "hood"..."uptown, baby, uptown, baby, we get down, baby, for the crown!" and i know many, many others who are part of the same age group, class, and background, who are doing fairly well.....a friend of mine, spent sometime in jail, a few times as a matter of fact, he now has two professional degrees....not all of these kids will go to jail.... |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 03:45 am: |
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Gee Yukio, don't you ever sleep. Look what time it is, after 3am. I have a lot of room to talk huh. Well I'm on the clock. Go to bed. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 05:01 am: |
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No disrespect intended, Irissa. But I concur with Yukio. Because whenever I hear/read ol' foks wax on rhapsodically about how things were so much better than they are now, I can't help wondering the following: If everyone were so much better than they are now, then who the @#$% helped create the current hellhole that we are in?
You know, these devilish kids of ours didn't just spout out outtah the ground. Somebody made 'em and were suppose to feed, cloth, house 'em and train/educate 'em.
I always find it interesting when older, more educated and wealthier people decry the failings of those less fortunate without ever considering and mentioning how THEIR own behavior/decisions helped to engender the very situation they now criticize.
Our youth are, for better and worst, a product of what YOU and I.
And I think it was the late/great rapper/songwriter/actor extraordinaire and patron saint of Hip Hop Tupac Shakur: "I just LIVE in this world. I didn't MAKE IT!" |
****erette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 07:58 am: |
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I do too much posting these days and not enough lurking. I must change my poster name permanently.
I just want to add a few thoughts:
1. The sixties - people still had hope that the future would get better and that the civil rights movement would achieve lasting and significant change. The fact that despite the struggle and changes in legislation, the day to day lives of most have not improved has led to today's nihilism and political apathy.
2. The increasing ubiquity of drugs. I guess other posters will say that they have always been around, but with the arrival of crack we are looking at a whole new ballgame.
3. Urbanisation. We no longer have Grandma Essie on the next street who will pull kids up when they are out of line. We don't know each other and we don't take responsibility for each other.
Stating the obvious?? Now I am going back to lurking for a while. |
Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 08:10 am: |
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Amen, ABM.
"...these devilish kids of OURS"
Emphasis on OURS.
Our children are currently under siege and we have not figured out how to protect them from a society ENTERTAINED by their demise -- but that does not mean they're not worthy of protection.
It seems to me, calling our children animals and savages only contributes to the ideology that grew them in the first place.
I live in the hood, and having raised three daughters, I've seen my share of wounded, directionless, self-destructive children coming through my place. With very few exceptions, these children are being raised by wounded, directionless, self-destructive women.
In light of the vicious war America has waged on Black men, and the subsequent war Black men have waged on themselves, it seems to me that it is the women in our community who hold the key to the physical, spiritual, emotional and psychological development of our children.
I'M NOT SAYING that men are exempt from responsibility, and I KNOW I'm gonna get hella flack for saying our children are a reflection of their mothers, but I really do believe in cases where children are being lost to the streets, or have descended into immorality, it is because on some level, we as women have lost the will or the strength to fight for them.
We can go on and on about absent, violent or trifling fathers, but ultimately, for every one of them is one of us who picked 'em, left 'em and/or tolerates their bad behavior.
We are the lionesses our children depend on for nurturing and protection. We have to work together to provide young women and girls with real parenting skills, since they are becoming parents at much younger ages, and are likely to have been parented by a woman who was unprepared.
Again, I'm not dismissing men (I love y'all) I grew up without a father in my home and the effect it had on me is EVER PRESENT in my adult life. But until we can unwage the war on our men, we better arm our women with the knowledge they need to raise up an educated and morally centered generation. |
Always Lurking
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 10:11 am: |
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Carey, ain't nothing wrong with a little dogge style.
Seriously, though, I think SS missed the mark on the writing and purpose of a book. The characters were not only flawed but down right unrealistic. I feel like I am an average reader. I read solely for pleasure and, most of the time, I don't care about great philosophical debates about books. I’d like to think that I am the type of person SS was writing. I grew up in that era, around that lifestyle, and I was taken by it. Admittedly, I read the book in a day and couldn't put it down because it was so drama filled and at times ridiculously unbelievable. In the end, though, I was disappointed. There seemed to be no point to the book. There was no lesson learned and no character growth or change. The self-interjection was distracting to say the least and point less.
Yes, SS's novel has given a rebirth the street fiction, but it disturbs me. Today we have a sprout of materialism in the hip-hop world (when it used to be about life in the city and difficulties of the everyday), where most of the music is about the bling bling, bootylicious, twerking, and Benjamin’s. Street fiction is the illegal side of the game that is easily merged with the hip-hop side of it. They seem to be one in the same. Hey, if you can't make it rapping, make it in the streets the best way you can or vice versa. The message maybe lost on the congregation. Paid in Full with Wood Harris (ironically a Roc. production) illustrates the problem well I think.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 12:29 pm: |
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All sociological rationales aside, the black condition could be monumentally improved if the ghetto mentality could be exorcised. As long as their is no stigma attached to 15 year old babies mamas vying for the attention of scrubs with baggy pants hanging off their asses, and as long as getting their hair "did" is more important than gettin their homework done, and as long as inner city females of all ages continue to breed broods of children without the benefits of stable relationships, then the status quo in the inner city will remain the stagmant quo.
The ramifications of all of this irresponsible behavior affects the entire black community and puts it at a disadvantage. And I am not some middle-class snob. I am a realist not an apologist! |
Always Lurking
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 12:38 pm: |
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Cynique, I have to agree with you on that one. Classic case and point, the new movie coming out this weekend, "My Baby's Daddy." A film that looks to be about fathers taking responsibility to take care of their children. However, they decided to go with a ghetto ass name. I'm surprised the didn't call it "Ma Baby Daddy."
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 04:53 pm: |
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Cynique, Always Lurking, ABM, and Chris Hayden:
Cynique, you're correct, the socalled "ghetto mentality" should be exorcized, but you can't do it without the sociological conditions, they're mutually reinforcing....we've done this before, so i'll say briefly that structural and human behavior(agency) are responible for social phenomena...human agency--their parents, and their parents parents, poverty and racism(structural) inability to pass positive values to their progeny...this is what we failed at, but it was not solely of our own doing. So that we need economic and moral revitalization(internal), and we need to demand better resources through the procurement of political and economic power.
Finally, even if these kids waited until they were in their twenties to have kids, possessed the lexicon of Barthes, in this racial economy, we would only speak better and seem less amoral, but we would be the working poor, which many of s us fit in this economy.
Many of these kids we are talking about will get jobs in the service sector, pay rent, and get a car, produce kids....the average american life. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:16 am: |
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Yeah, Yukio, it was about time for us to revive our ongoing debate. I get back to you on the subject next spring. LOL |
Mad Mama
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 12:28 am: |
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Yukio what are you worried about kids for when we all know now that you ain't havin any? (WINK)
Uhn-uh.
But you can forget about changing Linda cause she's laid up with Thumper-Humper and all the freak done came out her.
Maybe you'll find you a man one day too.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 10:59 pm: |
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Cynique...you're silly. I'm not messin wit u!
Mad Mama: don't believe what you read...things are never what they seem! |
idrissa
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 03:59 am: |
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No disrespect felt in any of your comments....and I must agree with a lot of what has been said especially Cynique's response. yukio; I agree with what you are saying also. We still live with a system that is designed to fail us.
The root of the problem is that these kids; these so-called "bad kids" were raised by parents who did not do their jobs.....whether it was because they were incapable of good parenting or because they just didn't care to do the hard work that comes with raising kids.
I am not a wealthy person; (although I am spiritually, culturally and psychologically rich, smiles)....nor am I a middle-class snob far removed from "the Hood"....raised a daughter in the so-called "Hood" who is graduating with a degree/certification as a Webmaster in a few months....as a single parent; sometimes working two jobs.
I have 19 nieces and nephews who come from the same place and all of the adults are either employed and paying their own way or still in school; some are raising children who as little folks (ages 4-12) are serious about their schooling. And they better be respectful cause where I come from it's my way or the highway when it comes to the Elders.
I still continue to be active in my community and church encouraging young people who WANT to be encouraged; but like the sister said; "I am a realist." and I see what I see in our communities.
Something unfortunate happened in our communities between the raging sixties and the "Let me get mine" seventies and a whole generation just didn't get it!
Grandmothers are raising grandchildren and great-grandchildren. I am shocked at the number of elderly women that I meet who are still dealing with these issues. There is still some cohesivenss of family in the Black community; YET...we still have an alarming number of lost families out there who are failing their young people. And it's not getting any better.
I saw it 20 years ago when my daughter first attended public school and it seemed that all of the other parents were much younger than I and yes; many had social problems . . .our kids slip through the cracks in the system....that is nothing new. You put three kids in a classroom of 35 kids who were born of drug addicted parents and have poor social skills to boot....ADD...Hyperactive kids...whatever you want to call it and the entire class is affected by what goes on each day....the educators are burned out and discouraged.
Yes; we need new methods of dealing with these young people. That is a given. We have to keep trying of course. My mom is 75 years old and still is active as a volunteer with young people; but it just seems like we're putting a band-aid on a gunshot wound.
It has begun to overwhelm us.....the negativity.
Sorry folks; I guess I'm just venting (or ranting)...up late working on a project and just peeked in to see what is going on. LOL
I'm done! |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 19, 2004 - 11:05 am: |
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Irissa:
Well, i agree with what you have said. Between the 60s and 70s, black folk forgot to pass down their traditions of activism, protest, education, etc....we dropped our culture for a white one and now we're paying the consequences...because an education, money,etc...aren't enough! We need internal integrity...this is what is missing, but i really don't think many of your generation had it anyway.....this is my brief anwser, by the by... |
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