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Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 01:15 am: | 
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This post is for some of the more literary minded writers like "In Print" and the like.
Do you ever lament the fact that Black literature, increasingly, seems to be losing what used to be a healthy population of "SMART" readers?
I find that the Commercial Fiction boom in Black books has caused an explosion of head jerking, Pop fiction black women to take over literary discourse. There doesn't seem to be room for a new Toni Morrison or someone like James Baldwin to emerge. I work in the publishing business and I notice that 99% of editors are suddenly refusing to see anything "literary" by a Black Author unless it's been blessed by a White writer/Establishment magazine (ie. Z.Z. Packer's discovery). They only want the debasing STREET novel and the Go-Girl crap. Sex and black stereotypes. Black trash, basically.
Anybody else disappointed and dismayed by this turn of events?
SECONDLY:
What "literary" thinking-man books by black authors are you looking forward to in 2004?
Do you know of any I can jott down?
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JMHO
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 07:07 am: |
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Anonymous, you say that you're in the industry, don't you know of any books that will be published in 2004? Seriously, you're probably more able to give titles than those who don't work in this industry. I don't and don't have any connections, so I don't know what books are due out this year.
As to your comments, take a look at this board, more specifically at some recent postings, and see which type of books generated more comments. They are mostly of the type of books that you describe.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 07:12 am: |
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interesting comments, especially the first statement(hope this wont start any trouble)....there is reginald mcknight and more recently edward jones, as well as Colson Whitehead, Edwidge Danticah, Zadie Smith, Caryl Phillips, to a lesser extent even Bernice L.McFadden, Toure' and others...black literary authors have always had more difficulty that the commercial folk.
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Madame X
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 08:42 am: |
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Although AA literary authors are not the majority - they are out there - but publishing is a business - and a business is out to make money - and so they see that "we" the consumer seem to drop our dollars more readily on the ghetto/urban/sista girl literature than we do for any other type of literarture being put out there by AA authors. It's the supply and demand thing - it would be up to "us" the reader - to turn the tides in the AA literary community - so everybody go out and by one "literary" book for one of your urban/ghetto/sistagirl reading friend - and put them on the road to higher learning! --
Yukio -- do u really think Bernice McFadden and Toure fall under the "lesser extent" category - and why? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 12:56 pm: |
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Society in general has been dumbed down. People jut don't feel like taxing their intellects. They want to diverted and dazzled. When the President of the United States brags that he doesn't read the newspapers, you know we're in trouble. But the "Literati" will always be with us and now, as always, it is they who will preserve and perpetuate excellence in the rts. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 12:58 pm: |
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Anonymous:
I don't think it is a case of black literature losing a healthy population of black readers. Up until the 60's and after most of the readers of our so-called best writers were white.
Fine work is always rare, even among the so called literary fiction or work.
Most white readers of fiction read commercial or genre fiction--the state of fiction mirrors the state of the cinema--when has art house cinema been blockbuster box office?
I am not dismayed. Every writer cannot be John Edgar Wideman or Tony Morrison. Is the average person to have nothing to read?
Nobody forces me or anyone else to read these books. We can pass them by. I find the notion that somebody would buy a book without thumbing through and seeing if they like it astounding. All I can say is if you buy a book just by the cover you deserve to get ripped off.
Finally--I re read the classics from time to time in order to better understand them, and still I have plenty I have not read. Try rereading good books.
Only books I know are coming out now I am curious about are by Kola Boof. I would like to see something new by Paul Beatty or Sapphire if they are working on it. Maybe some short fiction by Wideman. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 01:40 pm: |
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Anonymous: besides my last post, i also think black americans need to expand their reading to include other black folk and people of color....to include african, caribbean, and latin american literature. Callalou has done an excellent job of introducing the other cultures within african and the diaspora to its US readers.
Madame X....i'm sorry. I haven't read Toure's book of short stories...and I've yet come to a conclusion about McFadden. I used the term "lesser extent" in terms of mainstream appeal, not quality. The others, i believe, have received more of the white establishment's press....oh, lets not forget Thomas Glave...he is also receiving much praise....I think in 1999, callalou did a special on young male writers...i'm not sure if the same has been done for women...i'll check and get back to ya!
CHris Hayden: whites will always read more than blacks, for there are more whites interested in literary fiction than there are blacks....not because their more intelligent and we're less conscious of our cultural literary production, but because our numbers are smaller than whites...did you read Wideman's travel piece of his travels in Martinique or his autobiography of basketball, writing, and black culture?
In addition, i don't think society has been dumbed down. It has always been "dumb." there has always been this tension between the masses/commercial and intellectual/literary.... |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 02:04 pm: |
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Yukio:
I don't believe whites will always read more than blacks. They were certainly reading more than blacks before the 60's in that you did not have large numbers of blacks going on to college, or working with jobs with enough disposable income to afford books, nor did you have a lot of subjects of black interest. I believe blacks will read in proportion to their numbers of society or maybe more--I recall a neighbor of mine, since passed who loved to read--mostly nonfiction. He had grown up in rural Arkansas where they turned out school during planting and harvesting season for the black people anyway. He told me he would have loved to have been drafted by the Army in WWII because he could have gotten his education but the farm bosses used pull to keep him working on the farm--he and his family were sharecroppers.
After he left Arkansas he got his GED and used to read a lot. What are the names of those Wideman books? I am working on reading and re reading all his fiction right now. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 02:50 pm: |
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i meant in terms of population, but i do understand...
Hoop Roots and i'll find the other title soon.... |
Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 04:29 pm: |
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I don't know if I would be considered "literary-minded" since I write commercial fiction but I read all kinds of books. I grew up in a house full of books with two extremely intellectual parents. My father has written more than sixteen non-fiction books and is one of the most highly regarded individuals in his field.
As a publisher, I am definitely building a diverse house. I am tickled when people assume that I publish only erotica, considering I don't have a single erotica writer signed to my house. In 2004, I am making the house even more diverse with everything from historical fiction to science fiction to mystery/thrillers. I don't know if I can remember all 22 titles off the top of my head but I will attempt it.
Love to the Third by Michelle De Leon
Fire and Brimstone by Laurinda Brown
Six Days in January by William Fredrick Cooper
Mirror Mirror by Laurel Handfield
Potentially Yours by Franklin White
How Ya Livin' by Jonathan Luckett
Pretenses by Keith Lee Johnson
Whispers from a Troubled Heart by Rique Johnson
What Goes Around Comes Around by Darrien Lee
Enemy Fields by J. Marie Darden
God in the Image of Woman by DV Bernard
Breaking the Cycle edited by Zane
Our Time Has Come by Sylvester Stephens
Once Upon a Family Tree by Michelle De Leon
UnderCover by Laurinda Brown
Cracked Dreams by Michael Baptiste
Every Woman's Man by Rique Johnson
Insatiable by Allison Hobbs
Azucar Moreno (Brown Sugar) by Shelley Halima
Be Careful What You Wish For by Cheryl Faye
Love's Game by Harold Turley
All That Drama by Tina Brooks-McKinney
Wow! I did it. Anyway, I do believe there is something for everybody and I probably own at least 90% of the AA fiction books written in the past 10 years and that is not an overstatement. As someone mentioned, no one can make someone purchase a book and they certainly can't make them read it, unless we are talking school book reports. I can appreciate all forms of writing, as long as I consider it to be entertaining and informative. I don't know if I fall under your guidelines as a "smart reader" but I am definitely not a "dumb reader" and people who visit my office are amazed at my book collection because they have made way too many assumptions.
Peace,
Zane |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 04:38 pm: |
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Zane, which books of those you listed would you categorized as historical fiction? |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 09, 2004 - 04:52 pm: |
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Zane:
Of the books u listed, which are literary? |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:01 am: |
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Anonymous-
Yes, I worry, angst, but when I'm in a more rational state I have some hope. As Yukio said, it really comes down to percentages. Only a small percentage of the population enjoys "fine art," regardless of its form, and most of that group is educated middle-class and higher. When you look at the size of the Af-Am community, and the class breakdown, you could even argue we have a disproportionately large audience- even though it's miniscule.
I have begun to write for an audience that will exist, I hope, in the future, as our own community grows more sophisticated as it (I trust) moves up the economic ladder. Thank god for the college English depts of the world- they keep literary fiction in print and give it to a whole new generation each year. I also believe, in the long run, many works of lit fiction actually do find more readers than commercial offerings. Over decades, John Wideman will outsell E. Lynn Harris. Each season Lynn has to come up with a new book as the old ones fade away, while Wideman's work gets held up by more and more people, makes it on to the required reading lists in more and more classes, countries. It might take a century, but it will happen.
I will say that pre-tv, more people did read, and the general watermark in lit was higher as a result (Hemingway was a bestseller then). Today more people are less sophisticated about literature, although many are when it comes to film. Smart movies compete with traditional blockbusters in both reknown and receipts.
Yukio- I think Toure's firmly in a lit-fict category, although I personal find his work (or maybe just his readings) a bit too trendy and coonish. McFadden, I have read her work and it has seemed to me a somewhat pale copy of some of the early womanists, not particular innovative in prose, subject matter or narratology. I don't know if I'd say it was commercial, but I do think it's middle-brow. |
Madame X
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 08:56 am: |
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InPrint - I am currently re-reading The Color Purple - this is my third go round w/the novel. And I relate to it differently w/every reading -- of course I am older w/every reading and meet the prose and plot w/a keener readers eye - while I still enjoy the story - I found that certain parts dragged - that is the only fault I've found w/work. My question to you is do you consider The Color Purple a high, middle or low brow literary work - if you consider it literary at all? |
Let's Get Serious
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:23 am: |
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Madame X..."The Color Purple" won the Pulitzer Prize in literature.
It's not only the highest of literary fiction, but it's an American classic at this point, and was turned into a film that grossed over $300 million world wide and was nominated for 11 Academey Awards.
Forgive me if I find your question just slightly tepid.
That book has been in the curriculm at our school for what--20 years now? It's one of the most analyzed works by a woman author in recent history.
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InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:06 pm: |
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Madame X-
Excellent question. Nothing like questioning the intergrety of classics to get the blood flowing.
Was it original? Well, it clearly owes a lot to Hurston in theme, with a definitive splash of Ms. Magazine feminism from Walker's time there at their heyday. It's early success was based on its audience with white woman, and this is what also fueled its Pulitzer.
Does a major award equate with artistic merit? Well Titanic won best picture (as well as major commercial success), and now its seen by many critics as an overblown stinker. Color Purple, too, while staying on many reading list, has also faced growing criticism and re-evalution, an artistic grounds.
The prose is nothing special, the dialect sometimes draining. It is written on a third grade reading level- on purpose.
When gathering up the best of the movement, Walker's greatest contribution is now usual considered to be The Third Life of Grange Copeland.
That said, the book did resonate with a ton of people. Now, you could argue it was a political connection largely, less of an artistic one, but still.
So it wasn't low brow. Was it middle brow (a work that confirms existing ideas, artistic stylings, as opposed to creating new ones) then I'd say yes, it's aurguable.
But I also think, regardless of your take on the work, that her combination of more traditional black women's writing with a the issues of 1970s white femisism, she did create a new cocktail. So not the highest of brows, but a place in the literary category. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 12:13 pm: |
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InPrint,
Here is a relevant (yet 'snide' <<wink!>>) question: If you are writing to sell book to readers of the "future", how do you keep the bills paid for "today"? |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
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ABM-
I don't look at writing as a money making venture. I look it as a primarily artistic one. So, I'm not really focused on that aspect of it, at this point in my life. I've been fortunate enough to receive livable book contracts, but I teach writing and literature for my living. I find it very liberating. What I lose in time I gain in artistic freedom, and that's more important to me.
You could argue that being "literary" has allowed me to scam a comfortable lifestyle off the teat of academia. And you'd be right. But that's not why I write.
Oddly, I find this mindset is unusual in the black literary dialogue of the moment. As a community with a very working-class ethos (regardless of personal history), I hear so many writers gauge their success and the success of others based on how big their advances were or how many status symbols they own (cars, houses, etc.). How many business projects they're getting off the ground. I think it's part of a general need of an historically impoverished, powerless people to seize on empowerment, even in purely symbolic form. It reminds me of Jay-Z, always rapping about how he's really a businessman, or the generation before him fantacizing about being gangsters. It's the same kind of overcompensating. Kind of tragic, really.
Happy New Year! |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 02:55 pm: |
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InPrint:
Interesting comments. Jay-Z is a businessman, not a trained or college educated one, but still a businessman nevertheless.
Hmmmm...i'm not done with Warmest December, but at this point i might agree with you. Also, please share a few of your titles, only literature however!
What is literary?
I think being innovative is impossible, at this point....if you will, please point me to some innovative black literature, though i would say that He Sleeps (McKnight)is different, i'm not sure if it's innovative, though i loved it! Great first sentence.... |
Mad Mama
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 04:48 pm: |
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IN PRINT,
I cannot tell you how offended I am at your ignorant and blatantly untruthful remarks about "white feminists" being the ones who mostly purchased COLOR PURPLE and pushed it to a Pulitzer Prize.
Whoever pushed it, it was well deserved. The book is still better than 90% of the "novels" being published today.
Isn't it really the BLACK FEMINIST CONTENT of the book you find so distasteful rather than the way it was written or any other weaknesses?
Does it REALLY owe a lot to Hurston (I certainly don't think so, and I'm a connoiseur of both Hurston and Walker).
Walker wrote about her own family in COLOR PURPLE, and by accident, wrote about the majority of experiences of ALL black women and poor lower class white women in the process.
You really need to go back and research what you're saying, because in fact, every black girl and woman that I knew in 1983-1984 was already reading COLOR PURPLE and having "book parties" to discuss, cry about the book, long before TIME magazine and the white folks got wind of the book.
WE BLACK "womanists" (and lots of lesbians) made the book a hit. First.
Essence magazine did a whole story about how Black GIRLS were reading COLOR PURPLE on buses, in the subway, at High School lunch recess. The book became a phenomenon for every black girl who ever felt like Celie, Sophia or Shug. There are millions of women like that in this country.
Eventually, it resonated with other types of women as well. Especially LESBIANS, because there was a strong lesbian storyline in the book.
I've always had respect for your comments IN PRINT, but now you've lost enormous credibility with me, because you sound like one of the sexist black men who picketed the film and liberally trashed both the book and the movie years ago. Men who generally objected to Black women having their own say about their own experiences and dismissing them as "dykkes" and concoctions of "white women's feminism".
White women's feminism does not dictate the work of Black women womanists.
You say the book is coming under new criticism, losing its reach--but I see the DVD to the film recently sold 2 million copies!! It hasn't been out a full year.
Anybody who thinks "Grange Copeland" is as memorable, as touching and as important as the COLOR PURPLE is way off their rocker.
Boy are you a toad!
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InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 07:33 pm: |
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"Mad Mama"-
Ah, sacred cows make such juicy burgers!
I don't usually respond to the name calling posts, but for the record...
I actually agree with the book, politically. The phallocentrism that had been bubbling since Native Son had to be checked, as well as the chauvinist nationalism of the Black Arts movement. She was right on with that, and that's what people responded to most, I think.
It's possible to not think the book is high art, but agree with its didactic message.
I also think Womanism was Walker's shining acheivement, next to nearly single-handedly bringing Their Eyes Are Watching God back from obscurity.
It was no secret that the white female reading public made the book a hit, but does that take away from it? I only brought it up to address the Pulitzer issue. The movie, I thought, was pretty amazing.
Also for the record, I personal don't like Copeland either, but that's what often gets held up as a stronger artistic work, by male and female critics alike.
Actually, your knee jerk reaction is why the book is getting reevaluated. This book was, in many ways, a gender battleground for years, making it too hot to discuss rationally. Now that the political dust has (mostly) settled in reference to the work, many are now looking at it as an artistic work in itself.
FOR YUKIO (my hero)-
I didn't think He Sleeps was new, but it was mostly pulled from his own earlier work (mostly I Get On the Bus), so at least he was being derivative of himself. The prose is amazing though, poetic and fluid, the complexity of the character and social situations, I think that's what marks it as lit. I thought the ending could have better though. Bigger. But I liked it.
Yeah, Jay-Z is a businessman, but so is Paul McCartney, yet you don't hear Sir Paul singing to you about it all the time in his songs. Jay-Z has a lot of other identities (father, democrat, etc.) that he doesn't choose to reaffirm constantly. It is a cultural thing, how we choose to self-indentify. |
Cynnara
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:52 pm: |
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I agree with IN PRINT. I was bored by COLOR PURPLE.
It seemed overrated and a let down after enjoying the movie as a kid.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:43 am: |
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In Print, I found your take on The Color Purple very compelling. It dares to challenge something that is sacro-sanct, and gives words to something I have always secretly thought.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 01:12 am: |
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InPrint:
Yes, the prose was clean, clean, clean.....the complexity of the character, ha, ha....interesting white woman...ha, ha...and yes, his engagement with blackness was interesting, perhaps required reading for black americans seeking to visit the homeland...i love how he became a "man." And yes, the ending was a let down...i didn't feeling any closure, but i guess it was his beginning really...i'll have to read it again; he changed narrators(first and third person), and though it initially confused me, i got used to it, so i need to reread and think about its effect on the telling of the story....
Jay-Z is talking to his audience, who don't know much about business and still want to be rappers, not owners, producers or writers...i think the brotha has grown....PMcC isn't talking to poor white trash, Jigga is talkin to folk like me from the Pro-jects, home of roaches and rats....i do think many of us overcompensate, but that has always been something po folk do...regardless of race...eventually, wealth for some of us will not be new and we can get over it....
Mad Mama:
I would assume that though black women may have been at the forefront, they weren't able to get the book an award, for Pulitzer is about literary clout, and as we speak black folk, men or women, have very little power...this is the part of the Erasure's point. This is a fact regardless of one's political or ideological position.... |
Mad Mama
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 11:46 am: |
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Yukio, WHOMEVER gave Alice Walker's COLOR PURPLE the Pulitzer Prize, it was much deserved.
Steven Spielberg also made an exceptionally brilliant film out of it, and I don't believe for one minute that there's a black male director who would have done the story (or the black women in it) justice the way Spielberg did.
It's still the best black movie I ever saw and it's still one of the 5 best novels by a black woman that I've ever read.
And I is plenny black, done had 7 children and put 4 through college. So my opinion counts.
Sorry bout that.
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:08 pm: |
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Hello All,
Well, I see what's been going on since I've been gone. *smile*
Referring back to Anonymous' original question: "Do you ever lament the fact that Black literature, increasingly, seems to be losing what used to be a healthy population of "SMART" readers?"
My answer: To begin with, since Waiting to Exhale black literature has never been popular with the new reading audience. Charles Johnson won the National Book Award in 90/91. The notice came and went without a peep. It took the movie to make Alice Walker a household name. Toni Morrison had to win the Nobel before many of us knew who she was. And back before, during and after The Harlem Renaissance, the sole audience for black literature was white people. The Black Arts Movement is simply a footnote because it went out of its way to exclude white folks, so it did not survive. My point being, black literature, NEVER had a healthy population among the black reading audience in the first place. And now when the time appears to be pregnant with possiblities for it, it's dying a slow, painful death of hunger and neglect because the black reading audience of today, which is comprised mostly of black women, want to buy and read books that affirms their lives, mistakes, and wishes FIRST and the quality of the writing being coming in at a distant and forgotten third. If you think that I'm talking about you, I am.
Now, I'm not going to go off into who I think is "SMART" or not, because I'm a firm believer that anyone who can read is "SMART". It's the choices we make and how open we are to trying new things that determines rather we're "SMART" or not. I know people who won't look at a book that someone else has deemed real "literature". "I'm not tryin' to think too hard." OR, or, we get the so-called middle class crowd who won't read a book because the black characters are putting forth the wrong "image", speak in grammatically incorrect English, or fails the paper bag skin color test. If the so called high brow black folks don't read literature because of politics, and the so called low brow black folks don't read it because its "too hard", then who is going to support black literature?
I tell authors of real literature all the time, write and keep writing, no matter your low sales, no matter if you have a book contract or not, no matter the little pay (contrary to popular belief most popular authors of literature are worth more dead than alive) because there is always hope in the future generation.
Mad Mama: Hello. I wouldn't get too mad if I was you. I seem to recall that there was a flip side to The Color Purple book reception. There were just as many black women who hated The Color Purple for because its characters were not acceptable imagewise. Although now if you asked them, they would say otherwise, but my memory hadn't gotten that bad as to forget the controversy surrounding The Color Purple. So, let's not get too carried away. Second, I am one of the people who claim The Third Life of Grange Copeland is better than The Color Purple. Who cares about sitting in a hard rocker when I can recline in a Lazy Boy with massager and heat pad built in. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 01:12 pm: |
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OK...Mad Mama: I respect your opinion, as well as your blackness.
With that said, my comments are NOT about Walker, the deservedness of the award, the value of the film, nor your blackness.
My comments, and i think InPrint's, pertained to power relations. The power to give and taketh away.... Power decides whom receives an award...again this is not about you.
Posters:
Good points, thumper!
"Now, I'm not going to go off into who I think is "SMART" or not, because I'm a firm believer that anyone who can read is "SMART". It's the choices we make and how open we are to trying new things that determines rather we're "SMART" or not. I know people who won't look at a book that someone else has deemed real "literature". "I'm not tryin' to think too hard." OR, or, we get the so-called middle class crowd who won't read a book because the black characters are putting forth the wrong "image", speak in grammatically incorrect English, or fails the paper bag skin color test. If the so called high brow black folks don't read literature because of politics, and the so called low brow black folks don't read it because its "too hard", then who is going to support black literature?"
If we can step out our own cultural group for a minute, i would suspect that thumper's comments character most of the US, white, black, asian, and hispanic, and whomever else....except, i think, white folk aren't as concerned as people of color are concerned with socalled
"respectable" images.....
Again, as i said, the percentages of literary readers has always been small, and i believe it has increased since black folk have learned to appreciate literary fiction.....but the numbers are still small in proportion to commericial readers...ALso, i would like to make an obvious point, which thumper has suggested and i have in another thread about hip hop lit., black women are the readers of black fiction, not black men, who are really illiterate, as reading goes....indeed, this has always been the case, though there are male readers reading mysteries, sci-fi, but these genres are not as huge as the EJD, Omar Tyree, ZANE, ELH, etc.....and the rest of those relationship types of books that thumper has delineated.
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Book Father
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 02:23 pm: |
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Yukio, I would like to ask you a question, because I notice you always envoke "people of color".
If we put all the "people of color" together, which ones would be on the bottom? The black people?
I've just recently come into that bracket of earning more than $300,000 a year and I notice that Asians, latinos and other so called people of color seem to have far more in common with Whites and are far more in agreement with Whites than blacks are. I've been asked to make political donations this year and I'm seeing some ugly sides to "people of color" where it concern the issues of black folks.
I often wonder if we're not deluding ourselves in thinking that "people of color" are some kind of allie and help to the struggle of black folks.
Words are one thing, deeds seem to be proving another thing.
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Wondering
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 04:03 pm: |
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Why do you capitalize the first alphabet in whites and not the first alphabet in blacks? What's your problem? |
Wondering
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 04:05 pm: |
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On second thought, do you identify with whites more than blacks? |
Book Father
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 04:16 pm: |
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No, Wondering, I indentify more with money.
Force of habit ol boy, force of habit. Both the spelling and the answer.
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Book Father
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 04:20 pm: |
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For the record, Asians and Whites were both spelled with capital first letters.
blacks and latinos with lower case.
I guess by this you can tell I'm over the age of 50, Negro from the South and former newspaper writer?
That would be a good deducement.
Southern newspapers had different set of RULES not that long ago.
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Wondering
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 04:31 pm: |
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I am one year short of 80 and have lived in the deep, deep south most of my life. |
Book Father
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 06:09 pm: |
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Back to my question, which was NOT an accusation, but to engage the brilliant young sister for opinion.
Yukio, I would like to ask you a question, because I notice you always envoke "people of color".
If we put all the "people of color" together, which ones would be on the bottom? The black people?
I've just recently come into that bracket of earning more than $300,000 a year and I notice that Asians, latinos and other so called people of color seem to have far more in common with Whites and are far more in agreement with Whites than blacks are. I've been asked to make political donations this year and I'm seeing some ugly sides to "people of color" where it concern the issues of black folks.
I often wonder if we're not deluding ourselves in thinking that "people of color" are some kind of allie and help to the struggle of black folks.
Words are one thing, deeds seem to be proving another thing.
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Madame X
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 06:26 pm: |
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Yukio - I havent read The Warmest December yet -- although I plan to this year -- would love to hear your comments when you're done.
Everyone: Has anyone read "After The Garden" by Doris Jean Austin? |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 12:46 am: |
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Book Father:
I'll do my best to answer your questions...
"If we put all the "people of color" together, which ones would be on the bottom? The black people?"
Economically, i'm not sure at this point...it would be between us and latinos/hispanics. I don't know what the stats say....
"I've just recently come into that bracket of earning more than $300,000 a year and I notice that Asians, latinos and other so called people of color seem to have far more in common with Whites and are far more in agreement with Whites than blacks are. I've been asked to make political donations this year and I'm seeing some ugly sides to "people of color" where it concern the issues of black folks."
Well, i'm not in that bracket, so i can only give u my opinion. I'm sure there are a diversity of political ideologies within your economic bracket, but historically wealthy people, unless they're entertainers(usually white liberals who are often worse than conservatives), are usually conservative. In other words, i'm sure that you'll find as many conservative blacks uninterested in other blacks people as there are asians uninterested in other asians; and of course, there are those who are only interested in their own group. This is a difficult issue, because being racialized doesn't necessarily mean you'll appreciate the racial position of other groups, because in order to get power you have to play your position, which often means you have to sacrifice the community of oppressed, ie socalled "people of color", for the one group, asians or hispanics or blacks....there are cases where we have sold eachother out....blacks and caribbeans in new york city, blacks and latinos in LA, etc.....blacks and asians on both coasts....we are the common denominator, ironically....
people of color is discriptive as well as a political category....in this thread, i used it descriptively....i'm not naive, however, and know that color doesn't guarantee allegiance....which is why i don't get caught in color or socalled "race." I'm interested in your position, your politics, etc....this doesn't mean i'm not interested in race, but i don't allow appeals to race to confuse me.....
Madame X....when i'm done, i'll start a thread....
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Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 01:12 pm: |
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Book Daddy, I'm a woman of color who has never been deluded into thinking that Hispanics or Asians are my allies. But screw that! What I really want to know is - can I be a recipient of some of your charitable largess? I'm needy and lazy. BTW I used to be a newspaper columnist, too. |
Book Father
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 02:12 pm: |
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LOL@ Cynique. Sorry, sexy lady but I'm married to a demon black woman who controls all my cash, checkbooks, cards. I never see a dime but got plenny.
YUKIO...I am totally in synch with you regarding "people of color". You feel exactly how I feel about it. I was just not sure what you meant, but I feel the same way you and Cynique feel. Just wanted to understand you was all.
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yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 12, 2004 - 10:21 pm: |
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Book Father:
Gotcha...i understood and appreciate the question. |
madashell
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 02:47 pm: |
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In response to the original post for this topic, I am not dismayed at all. If the only things available to read was the literary crap, I'd shrivel up. I like variety so it doesn't bother me that there's street fiction, trash, banging sex, literary, whatever. Buy according to your individual tastes. If editors want to pub literary stuff, there's always gonna be someone out there who will make sure it gets on the shelves.
This post is for some of the more literary minded writers like "In Print" and the like.
Do you ever lament the fact that Black literature, increasingly, seems to be losing what used to be a healthy population of "SMART" readers?
I find that the Commercial Fiction boom in Black books has caused an explosion of head jerking, Pop fiction black women to take over literary discourse. There doesn't seem to be room for a new Toni Morrison or someone like James Baldwin to emerge. I work in the publishing business and I notice that 99% of editors are suddenly refusing to see anything "literary" by a Black Author unless it's been blessed by a White writer/Establishment magazine (ie. Z.Z. Packer's discovery). They only want the debasing STREET novel and the Go-Girl crap. Sex and black stereotypes. Black trash, basically.
Anybody else disappointed and dismayed by this turn of events?
SECONDLY:
What "literary" thinking-man books by black authors are you looking forward to in 2004?
Do you know of any I can jott down?
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 04:05 pm: |
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IN THE MONEY
The only REAL alliances that most wealthy people, no matter their race, have are with those who they feel will help maintain and enhance their investment portfolio. After all, that’s how and why most of them became and remain wealthy to begin with.
Book Father, I’ll bet that now that you have ascended to the Top 5% income bracket, you now ‘enjoy’ much more ‘friendly’ relations with White people (e.g., accountants, bankers, physicians, car dealers, investment brokers, credit card companies, realtors, etc.) than you probably did when you were less affluent.
And former NBA great ‘Sir’ Charles Barkley said it best when asked how after being born/bred by generations of Democrats he could chose to be a Republican (paraphrased):
Barkley’s grandma: How can you be fo’ dah Republican’s, Baby? Dey are only fo’ rich foks.
Barkley: But Big Ma, I AM RICH!
PEOPLE OF COLOR
I have always been a little perturbed by the faux fidelity implied by this fallacious "people of color" moniker. I don’t recall many Mexican, Arab and Chinese people ever being kidnapped, enslaved, raped, lynched, hosed, firebombed and utter disenfranchised in America as was (is) perpetrated against African Americans. And they weren’t betrayed, invaded, shuttled, interned, starved and obliterated as the Native Americans were.
The only non-white people who have any profound and enduring reasons to ally are Blacks and Native Americans (though, sadly, we never really did). Everyone else has mostly hopped unto a gravy train that had already been built and stocked by us.
This "people of color" misnomer is nothing more that a political construct engendered by Black and liberal White politicians to attempt to amass non-White people into a political body that is potent enuff to compete for power with the majority Whites (or at least to affect the appearance of being capable of such).
But this has been the inherent problem with the fantasy of multi-racial solidarity: The people who arrived here voluntarily will naturally America very differently from those who were dragged here in shackles. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 01:02 am: |
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ABM:
I disagree with some of your comments. Asians and hispanics have been exploited in the US. Now, is it the same as african americans? No. BUt have they been exploited....hell yes! People of color means non-white...and historically, and even presently, as non-whites, asians and hispanics have not received the same treatment or protection under the law as whites. Oppression is oppression is oppression.
As a political category, doe "people of color" work? I say YES....there are, and has been for a long time, cross-"race" and ethnic coalitions. Of course, this doesn't mean that we're all hanging and voting in eachother's interest, but there are political activists and interest groups that work for "people of color."
In other words, this is not a black and white issue, excuse the pun....it is gray, for many black folk are politically uninterested in black people. One of my closest friends is a "person of color" works support and organize refugees from Africa, particularly securing and procuring funding for African based organizations instead of liberal white organizations that often attempt to speak on behalf of the african organizations. This is serious work....real on the ground, community work.....i say at the end of the day, if folk are sincere and they listen to me, engage me, share and exchange with me, then they can be my friend, BUT if they are sincere yett they want to tell me what i need and what my desires should be then they may not be my enemy but they're certainly not my friend.
Here's a book i'm currently reading:
Race, Police, And The Making Of A Political Identity: Mexican Americans and the Los Angeles Police Department, 1900-1945. Serious read! It examines police brutality and development of the zoot suit street subculture, which African Americans also participated in during and after WWII. |
Gay Studly Bro
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 01:55 am: |
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Shaking my head at YUKIO. What is she a Korean?
Latinos far and wide voted REPUBLICAN in the last few elections. Is that the blanket solidarity you're talking about? Have you ever seen the way Latinos in Florida, Texas, North Carolina (!) and California horde all the jobs from blacks, call our kids the "n" word and vote AGAINST whoever black people are voting FOR??
Whole county lines have been redistricted to give "people of color" POWER that once belonged to blacks. These people of color haven't been here 3 good decades, but they manage to kick us around in our own country.
Go to Texas and California...everything's in Spanish! Blacks can't get jobs cause they're not Bilingual! Black kids miss out on education cause the classrooms are often taught in Spanish!
--those Mexicans and Asians, etc. still have their own cultural languages, their own real names from generations back, their own countries to return to if need be, their own identities.
How dare you even try and claim that their "oppression" is similar to ours or that we are some big happy family with them, when the fact is, they have been ACCOMPLICES (committed helpers) in oppressing and dehumanizing black people right along with whites for ages!
Your words made my stomach turn, because I don't see how a black woman with your level of intelligence can make such ridiculous miscalculations.
Black Americans participated in the building of America period. We were in Jewish culture, in Asian culture, many of us speak Spanish and eat Latin food. We've slept with everybody.
SO WHAT!
When the wind hits the door--every one of those brown, yellow and red brethren will call us "nigger" and stand right with the white man in a heartbeat.
This title "people of color" is just one more way for a bunch of traditionally stupid black people to stand behind some more light skin folks and fix somebody's else's flat tire while our own tires are being looted.
No one in this country feels the alienation and lack of self-worth that black people feel. NO ONE.
Shaking my head.
I TOTALLY agree with ABM.
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Kathleen Cross
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:13 am: |
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When Mexico won its independence from Spain in 1821, Americans were welcomed to settle in Texas and California under the condition that they observe Mexico's law outlawing slavery.
By 1835, those WHITE (EX) AMERICANS who had settled in Texas announced that they intend to secede from Mexico rather than give up their "right" to slavery.
Santa Anna, then President of Mexico, proclaimed a unified constitution for all Mexican territories, including Texas, and refused to ratify that constitution to allow slavery in Texas.
In 1836 an army of WHITE TEXANS declared independence from Mexico, named Sam Houston commander of their army -- and promptly adopted a constitution that formally legalized slavery in Texas -- MEXICO called that an act of WAR and set out to defend its territories from both secession AND slavery -- it was a war they could not win. Texas became a UNITED (SLAVE) STATE in 1845, but Mexico continued to fight to preserve what was left of its territories.
In 1848 The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was signed by the Senate, ending the war with Mexico. The United States gained over 500,000 square miles which include what are now the states of California, Nevada, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, and parts of Wyoming and Colorado.
How can anyone say the US didn't do to Mexicans what was done to Native Americans?
I am pasting the following excerpt from an article by Roberto Rodriguez and Patrisia Gonzales:
"Today in Mexico, Indian peoples still play ancient African instruments, sing songs and perform dances that pay tribute to their African ancestors.
These Mexicans play African "hand pianos" and perform "the dance of the black people." Mexican "corridos" -- or song-stories -- tell of slave uprisings. And the marimbas of Mexico, as well as those of Central America and Ecuador, all have their origins in Africa.
All are examples of the still thriving African legacy in Mexico.
Since 1492, the history of the Americas has been forged by three cultures: indigenous, European, and African
The early African presence in the Americas is normally associated with the slave trade in the United States, the Caribbean, Brazil, Central America, Colombia and Peru. Not generally taught in history textbooks is that Mexico, colonized by Spain, was also a key port of entry for slave ships and consequently had a large African population.
In fact, during the colonial era, there were more Africans than Europeans in Mexico, according to Aguirre Beltrán's pioneering 1946 book, "The Black Population in Mexico." And he said they didn't disappear, but in fact took part in forging the great racial mixture that is today Mexico.
In Mexico, many of the Africans that entered came to what are now the states of Yucatan, Michoacan, Tlaxcala, Mexico, Chiapas, Veracruz, Guerrero and Oaxaca. Contrary to popular thought, they did not remain in the south but migrated throughout the whole of Mexico, where they were employed in occupations such as mining, the textile industry, ranching, fishing and agriculture. Blacks in Mexico weren't simply slaves. Many were explorers and cofounders of settlements as far north as Los Angeles and other parts of what is today the Southwest United States.
Prior to independence from Spain, there were numerous slave rebellions throughout the Americas, including in Mexico. The first documented slave rebellion in Mexico occurred in 1537; this was followed by the establishment of various runaway slave settlements called "palenques." Some rebellions were in alliance with Indians and mestizos even as far north as Chihuahua. In 1608, Spaniards negotiated the establishment of a free black community with Yagna, a runaway rebel slave. Today, that community in Veracruz bears its founder's name.
The principal guerrilla fighters for Mexican independence from Spain were Indians, mestizos and mulattos. One of the primary leaders of the independence movement, José María Morelos y Pavón, was of African ancestry, as was Vicente Guerrero, Mexico's second president, who officially abolished slavery in 1822.
Also hidden from history is Mexico's role as a sanctuary to African American slaves during the 19th century. Unknown to even most historians, descendants of these slaves still live in Mexico.
In the summer of 1850, the Mascogos, composed of runaway slaves and free blacks from Florida, along with Seminoles and Kikapus, fled south from the United States, to the Mexican border state of Coahuila. Accompanying the Seminoles were also 'Black Seminoles' -- slaves who had been freed by the tribe after battles against white settlers in Florida.
The three groups eventually settled the town of El Nacimiento, Coahuila, where many of their descendants remain, including some of our distant relatives.
The African presence in Mexico is not so much denied as it is obscured. Aguirre Beltrán's work has brought to light something most Mexicans and Mexican Americans have historically been unaware of -- that they, like other Latinos, have not only Indian and Spanish blood, but African blood as well.
In times of racial discord between Latinos and African Americans, this historical confluence of cultures should serve as a reminder that both communities share common ancestors. In fact, if we probe far enough, we're all related." |
Kathleen Cross
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:14 am: |
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If any hatred exists between us, it can only be because we are ignorant of our history. This division reminds me of what the Belgians did in Rwanda -- got two completely interrelated groups of people (Hutus and Tutsis) to machete one another's children.
GOD HELP US if we fall for that same ol' divide and conquer bullsh#@. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:27 am: |
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Good post KC...and thanks for the historical facts....I believe the most recent Callalo is devoted to writers and poets of african descent in South and Central America...i'll check!
Gay Studly Bro:
You misread my comments, but i'll post them again, so that you can better comprehend what i've written.
My comments do not reflect your characterization of my post(s):
You wrote:
"How dare you even try and claim that their "oppression" is similar to ours or that we are some big happy family with them, when the fact is, they have been ACCOMPLICES (committed helpers) in oppressing and dehumanizing black people right along with whites for ages!"
I stated:
"Now, is it(their opression) the same as african americans? No. BUt have they been exploited....hell yes!"
"As a political category, doe(s) "people of color" work? I say YES....there are, and has been for a long time, cross-"race" and ethnic coalitions. Of course, this doesn't mean that we're all hanging and voting in eachother's interest, but there are political activists and interest groups that work for "people of color." "
My January 12, 2004 states:
"This is a difficult issue, because being racialized doesn't necessarily mean you'll appreciate the racial position of other groups, because in order to get power you have to play your position, which often means you have to sacrifice the community of oppressed, ie socalled "people of color", for the one group, asians or hispanics or blacks....there are cases where we have sold eachother out....blacks and caribbeans in new york city, blacks and latinos in LA, etc.....blacks and asians on both coasts....we are the common denominator, ironically....
people of color is discriptive as well as a political category....in this thread, i used it descriptively....i'm not naive, however, and know that color doesn't guarantee allegiance....which is why i don't get caught in color or socalled "race." I'm interested in your position, your politics, etc....this doesn't mean i'm not interested in race, but i don't allow appeals to race to confuse me....."
In conclusion, my combined thoughts in the two post pertains to people of color is: (1) Were mexicans and asians exploited and oppressed? Hell Yes! (2) Is it the same as AA, NO! (3)As a political category, "people of color" does have viability, for there are possibities and real occurrences of cross "racial" and ethnic coalitions;(4)Is the political category always viable? NO!(5) It is just a political category, like black politics, which doesn't mean that all blacks will vote for the same person, nor that all blacks consider themselvs part of the black communinty; (6) which is why at the end of the day, one's political positions represents them, not their "racial" or "ethnic" identity; (7) nothing is guaranteed, and that if there will be any real political and community building no group can do it by themselves.
Well Gay Studly Bro, i hope i've clarifed my position. Next time, please prudently read my post before you mischaracterize, challenge my "blackness" (whatever that means), question my intelligence, and call me out my culture....i don't know you like that!
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RED
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 10:29 am: |
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Kathleen, you say "god help us re: divide and conquer".
I am interested to know, since African blood is so strong and dominating, and since we're all pretty much aware that several million Africans were in Mexico at one time.
How did the Mexicans GET RID of all that African blood? Where did it go?
Were there rigid caste systems in place, in other racial oppressive social mores that caused these Africans to systematically disappear?
Why is Panama still black? How come Peru and other Latin societies still have both a huge African population, even though caste systems are in place?
What did the Mexicans do to GET RID of all that black blood?
BTW--the Mexicans, like the Indians, also owned black slaves. To this day, in Mexico, black skinned latinos are treated horrendously by white skinned Mexicans and not allowed to represent the country or participate in social dynamic of the country.
**Politically minded latinos like Edward James Olmos are trying hard to change this, but why should black people bend over backwards to kiss yet another outside butt? We're divided ourselves by color and class.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 12:06 pm: |
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I frequently refer to myself as a person of color. This is an option I feel free to exercise. But I do not relate to Asians or Hispanics or consider them my allies because they are people of different colors with different agendas. To me, it's as simple as that. |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 12:37 pm: |
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AMEN Cynique!!
As usual, your simple "out with it" saves the day!
Like you, I don't have anything against anybody else, but I'm not about to be a sucker either. I think we black persons of color been licked enough. ROFL!
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:06 pm: |
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Cynique....yes, yes....nice and sweet. I'll have to learn this...taut and concise.
Also, i must say, ok, here 's my first test, some of my allies are asians and hispanics, and some of my enemies are black folk.
How's that? |
Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:42 pm: |
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I recently attended an award ceremony where Edward James Olmos (Mexican) was honored for his committment to the unity of the human family. In his acceptance speech he referred to our "common African mother"
His own mother was in the audience, and he mentioned how much it hurt her the first time she heard him refer to his people as "originally african". Olmos is a proud Mexican man who's not "trying to be Black," But he does know his history -- he knows that Mexico is an amalgamation of peoples, histories and cultures whose origin, ultimately, is the same African woman who gave birth to us all.
Olmos remarked that embracing that history is the key to the healing and progress of the world. He went on to say that people of color the world over have been influenced (remnants of colonialism) to detest or deny africa, and that his own mother had been raised not to recognize her relationship to the African continent. (She since has changed her lifelong resistance to that ideal and embraces what she now knows is true -- that for any human being to deny Africa is to deny him/herself.)
How is it that Edward Olmos knows that, and Ward Connerly does not? Ward is certainly a Black man (though you'd be hard pressed to hear it from him) yet he is certainly no Black person's ally.
A post above claimed "When the wind hits the door--every one of those brown, yellow and red brethren will call us "nigger" and stand right with the white man in a heartbeat."
Accusing EVERY ONE of "those people" sounds like Klan rhetoric to me.
There are plenty of so-called Black folks (of every shade and nationality) that'll "stand with the White man" if they can manage to -- why not paint Black "bretheren" with the same brush you're painting Asians and Mexicans with?
I'm really not trying to be Pollyanna here. I believe in my soul that racism and colorism threaten the survival of the human race. We can try to draw lines and separate ourselves (pretty ridiculous to even think about how that would work) or we can submit to TRUTH and work for a world in which that truth is realized.
Ultimately every one of us is responsible for how these conflicts turn out -- we choose unity or disintegration every day with our words and our actions.
If you talked to someone Hutu before the bloodletting in Rwanda began, you would hear the same rhetoric being spoken here. Most of the conflict was based in economic and political disenfranchisement -- not racial hatred.
An estimated 800,000 Rwandans died in that conflict in a matter of weeks -- hundreds of thousands of black people slaughtered one another and their children with machetes and other hand made weapons.
At the root of that conflict is a seed of hatred planted by Belgian colonists -- Tutsi superiority was declared by them -- and internalized over only a few generations.
The hope for Rwanda now? The people, both Tutsi and Hutu, who are willing to recognize their common humanity and work toward the building of an equitable social system.
Maybe we should begin there, instead of waiting until we are cleaning up the blood of our children with the same mop.
btw,
Africa is not evident in Mexicans?
www.lumika.org/mexico_people
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:45 pm: |
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Damn...i'm sorry....
Red: These are historical questions that you can find the answers in the library.
Let me give you a quick comprehensive answer, though.
Africans were not on the interior of Mexico, but along the coast, so that african blood didn't infiltrate much of mexico. In other words, only a small portion of the african population miscegnated with the indigenous population. Also, this occurred in the seventeenth century. Also Kathleen's post is correct about runaways going to Mexico in the mid-nineteenth, but this is still a small number in relationship to the entire mexican populaition.
Panamanian history is more recent, and quite different. People from the british caribbean moved to Panama to work on the call during the late 19th century and throught the twentieth century.
If we look these in comparison we have Mexico...400yrs and Panama 100 yrs.
You have to be careful with history. And more importantly, you have to consider and appreciate the historical process, so that a question like "HOw did MEXICANS get rid of all that African blood?" is presumptous and laden with bias...
You also have to consider when the Spaniards left Mexico...the indigenous population is the black population there....indians are the butt of Mexican jokes...(indians)they're usually very poor, "uneducated," etc...Mexicans are the product of indians and spaniards, and the new cultural and nationality that developed because of Spanish imperialism....there are many indians who don't speak spanish or speak both spanish and their indigeous language.....
Posters:
As i've said, we (now this "we" is really question) need to learn folks politics first...their color is only part of their political identity! I'm serious...it is clear, and if you look at it historically it has always been evident, that all black americans don't think alike, and we certainly don't have eachother's back....so just be careful...black skinned latinos don't necessary seek political allegiance with black americans...remember their complexion is black but they are still culturally different...black americans need to learn this, we care phenotypically black, but we our culture is what makes us who we are....US Racism has led us to make everything black and white, but there is no such thing as race only racism(use the assumption of race as a means of oppression)....remember, african american is a cultural identity....puerto rican, haitian, jamaican are cultural nationalities.
In other words, we can be in a room full of black people who are sengalese, domincan, and guyanese and we will be unable to communicate, we'll eat different foods, etc....now, let an african american enter the room, who will he/she talk to?
This is why we are divided because we have different histories, and i believe that we, people of color, really need to learn about eachother if we're interested in change...or at least to understand why folk don't agree with you....and though we don't have to agree on everything, we should understand that often times we sure a similar burden...this is what has changed many africans and other folk of african descent, because the police and racism isn't as sophisticated, so any black man can get shot, murdered, molested, etc....ok...i'm done with my rhetoric
This much too long, but if i'm passionate about something Cynique, ABM, and Chris Hayden, it is political change.... |
Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:49 pm: |
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Correction to the above post:
"If you talked to someone Hutu before the bloodletting in Rwanda began, you would hear the same rhetoric being spoken here. Most of the conflict was based in economic and political disenfranchisement -- not racial hatred."
I should have said you MIGHT hear the same rhetoric.
There were plenty of Hutu who didn't believe Tutsi's were the source of all their economic and political woes. Many Hutus refused to kill their Tutsi neighbors -- and were themselves killed for those beliefs.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 03:54 pm: |
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i meant the word canal, refering to folks from the caribbean.... |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 05:42 pm: |
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If everbody was the same color, conflict and disunity would still exist in other areas and on different levels. It would seem, that the human race is its own worst enemy. |
Katrina M.
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 06:26 pm: |
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I think a lot of this rejection of Asians and Latinos is our own brand of racism.
I definitely identify with the oppression of latin, asian and most anybody who is "of color". We live on the North American continent, not Africa, so it makes sense that our sense of connection would go farther to include more shades of our own people.
I do, however, understand the resentment and teeth sucking that I see coming from many Africans when so many latin people claim to be "children" of Africa, because it's the same as white people claiming it. They've done so much against Africa. The Portuguese were stealing slaves 200 years before the whites and there's bad blood between Africans and Spaniards.
So I understand their reluctance to embrace latin people--other than for sex. LOL!!! CTFU!!
But we're definitely all connected. I feel very related and trusting of latino and asian peoples and I think we should build a coalition with them in this country.
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Kathleen Cross
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 14, 2004 - 07:52 pm: |
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I agree Katrina. History is what it is and is made up of so much evil, opression and "bad blood".
We already know that the actions of generations of greedy, heartless individuals have created these issues we grapple with today; the question is, does that history dictate the future we choose to create? And in what ways are we individually responsible for the future our children inherit from us?
The 'catch 22' here is that Latin (or Asian, or European or any other) individuals who try to act in ways that might help create a more unified and equitable future for a perpetually oppressed African Diaspora, open themselves up to be villified, suspected and resented for that desire to unite and undo the damage from the past.
When will it be "okay" to work for change? How many generations must a Mexican be removed from Spain to be "forgiven" for benefitting from skin color and class oppression?
I agree that the resentment and suspicion is understandable, but unless people are encouraged to reach across those chasms carved by their ancestors, unless we allow ourselves to believe humans can change, we are all doomed -- stuck in roles we didn't write.
The most beautiful (and dangerous) thing about being human is FREE WILL. I applaude any human who uses their will to make positive change -- though I am often skeptical and suspicious (as you pointed out, many folks are,) I'm just trying in my own daily life to give folks (who didn't choose what "race" they were born) room to demonstrate their sincerity and committment to social justice. Being open to that possiblity means being disappointed when folks show ulterior motives, but it also means being uplifted and encouraged (sometimes even strengthened) when sincere, meaningful coalitions are created. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 05:33 pm: |
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My oh my, excellent. In fact the whole exchange has been a pleasure to read. At first I had planned to skip right on by this thread because of the title. I thought, here we go, another bourgeois negro hiding behind Anonymous, spewing condescending B.S. But I was wrong. The thread turned out to be quite interesting. The historical information had me looking up maps and names. Check this out: Did you notice the difference between the first post and the last? We started downtown and ended up in Harlem, but hey, again, it was informative and interesting. We even had a Gay Studly Brother stop by 
You never know who's going to be hanging out on Thumper's Corner. |
idrissa
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 08:33 pm: |
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I agree Carey which is why I make it a point to read this board whenever I have some free time....I am learning so much just hanging out here. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 09:23 pm: |
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And I tell you what Idrissa, some may know this and some not, if you did a search using simply Thumper, you will arrive here! Really you can do it right now. You don't have to type anything other than Thumper. This site will be one of the first 40 or so selected depending on the engine that is used. So all the starving authors are being "published" .....sorta. Oh yeah, eyes are watching. Check it out and get back with use. This is not only a wonderful AA site, it's the BEST.
There is something else you can do that's kind of neat. If you go to the home page (AALBC) and do a search ( I think they still have a search window), it's amazing what you can find with limited input. In some cases you can simply again, put a name in like Cynique or Yukio and a few of their posts will be one of the selections. You can even try the title of a post you or another created and see what you find. Yeah, nice stuff. See ya.
Carey |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 09:53 pm: |
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Hello
Maybe I should clarify something. I'm talking about a WWW search in the above post. Check out my new post for an AALBC search, talkin about surprised.
You will never have to ask another where a certain post is located, if you use the AALBC's "search" that is underlined at the bottom of this page. Fantastic stuff! |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 10:32 pm: |
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Carey after all thee years your'e just now figuring that out?
I've been searching for years!!
Most of us you're telling already know. BEEN knew. (slapping my knee with a laugh)
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Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 10:56 pm: |
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Hey Carey,
If you click on the "search" link at the bottom of THIS page and input the word "Carey" where it says "search for" and select "name of author" where it says "look in" then click "Perform Search" you will get a list with links to ALL 205 of your posts: 205 posts on 73 pages in 4 topics!
What a great feature, Thumper |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 11:13 pm: |
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Anonymous, The jokes on YOU ClOWN. Of course we know how to search but Troy has just recently been using THIS new format, so some of the postee's might not have known this. Is that all you have to contribute? Take your thumb out of your *&^% and clean yourself up, you have something on your face and I'm not talking about that Anonymous mask. So you knew, obviously you know nothing about others feelings. What do you say to your wife when she buys you something you already had.....? I can take a good guess.
Thanks Kat.
Carey |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 16, 2004 - 01:47 pm: |
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ABM........."Pull My Finger". That evoked my first big laugh of the day! Man, as old and silly as that is, it just cracked me up. I think it was because it came out of nowhere. I could see eveybody standing around talkin' all serious and you lean over and asks JTF to pull your finger, man, it got me.
Re: "My Sack"...."Your Sack" yeah that's true. |
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