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Amitenejah
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 06:05 am: | 
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Hip Hop Lit., is the up and coming thing; novels based on standard themes within the hip hop genre.
It’s sure to make many millions, I’m hoping some of you are doing what you can to position yourself for a substantial piece of the ‘hip hop lit.’ pie. White folk, and the world market will buy this product like crazy.
You --- yes YOU (all Black writers) have the critical resources necessary to capitalize on this new area of Black literature, you have the writing skills, you know people that consider themselves to be of the ‘hip hop generation,’ and you have the marketing/distribution networks already in place to get the product delivered.
Is there anyone here presently working on Hip Hop Literature? If so talk about it.
If there is no Hip Hop Lit authors ‘in the house’, I want to know who is intrigued by this?
I have a number of projects working at this time, but I'm going to set aside some resources (time and money) to enter this market before the summer of 04.
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 10:32 am: |
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Amitenejah:
Hip hoppers, white and black, are notorious non readers. Where is the market? What is the demographic?
What kind of stories would you write for them? If the videos are any evidence, gangsta stuff and bling bling stories.
Of present writers, Zane brings a lot of hip hop influence to her work. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 02:59 pm: |
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CH:
I'm a not quite ol' school hip hopper and i read....i think you'd be surprised who would call themselves "hip hoppers." Kevin Powell is anotha hip hopper...many of us grew up with the culture, though we don't dress like the kids in their teens and twenties....
hip hop stories? Good question CH! I think one needs to think about the culture rather than the music....Brown Sugar was a hip hop film, which was less about the music and more about how the music made you feel...or rather the meaning of the music....consider some of the lyrics of Common's I used ta love her....or black thought's joint.....there is diversity with in culture, as there is in jazz, blues, etc..... |
Amitenejah
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 03:54 pm: |
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Brother Hayden:
Allow me to address the last statement first, to bring ‘hip hop influence’ into a work is like putting three mint leaves across the carrots of Prime Steak dinner and calling it a vegetarian meal. Hip Hop literature is all about the hip hop world, perhaps with some ‘norm' influence.
In terms of story lines, as indicated in the earlier post, there would be common themes that are immersed in the world of hip hop. When you look at their videos you see what they want for themselves, when you read the newspapers you see what White society wants for them, and when you see them face to face you see how they have, are, and will deal with the diametrically opposed forces. Clearly, the hip hop world has survived and succeeded to a very large degree.
CH, you claim hip hoppers are non readers, please note, of the Black magazines that have come on the market since the 1980’s which types have gone under and which types have grown. I submit to you that the hip hop mags have grown wonderfully. That is just an indication of the market you queried.
The facts that I believe you are confusing are, hip hoppers not reading what they don’t like (academic material, and standard white-bread lit), with not reading what they do like.
The point is to give them what they want, while designing it in such a way that will be inspiring and empowering for Black people. I maintain that the hip hop industry has made the sharpest impact on the world market. Given that industry is solidly Black controlled I beseech you not to sleep on this opportunity. This is your chance to serve your community and to generate massive amounts of revenue.
I might not be of that world, but rest assured, after doing some serious research, I will author one of those books in 2004.
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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 02:22 pm: |
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Hi Amitenejah interesting post.
For the purposes of discussion it would be useful to define the hip-hopper demographic. The term is so loosely defined it is almost useless as a stand alone term. In much the same way term "urban" means very little in isolation.
Again for the sake of discussion I'm going to assume hip-hopper refers to a group born primarily after 1970 that enjoys rap music, and embraces the hip-hop culture which includes the style of dress (baggy, tatooed), manner of speech (naamean) other forms of expression like grafitti.
This definition of course is not limmited to Black people. Once does not have to meet all of the above criteria to self identify as a hip-hopper. Indeed there are some 50 year old hip-hoppers out there.
Chris I'm surprised you would say hip-hoppers are notorious non-readers. I know you love to debate, but that statment was just silly. Who else is reading The Source.
This group will read what appeals to them. The problem is what appeals to the hip-hopper in general may not appeal to you or the demographic traditionally served by main stream publishers.
Chris I think you did hit on something noting that Zane addresses this market. Works by authors like Kwan, or Shannon Holmes also appeal to the Hip-Hop generation (or rather culture).
Amitenejah, I think if you want to capitalize on this demographic you will have to generate work in the K. Elliott (http://aalbc.com/authors/kelliott.htm) vein.
Yukio, while people like Kevin Powell and perhaps even Dr. Cornell West may define themselves as hip-hoppers, their products will never sell as well as Zane's stuff will sell. Hip-Hoppers don't want to hear Cornell West rap - they want to hear Too Short. Likewise, Hip-Hoppers don't want to read Powell's Who's Gonna Take the Weight they wanna read The Coldest Winter Ever or Gangsta by K'wan.
Again the trick is to produce work that hip-hoppers want to read. I recall reading somewhere where Hip-Hop pioneer, Kool Herc, said what made his dee-jaying so popular was that he got rid of all the anticipation and went straight for the break in the song and extended it.
This is probably the key to this genre. Don't waste time developing characters or dialogue which is too deep, just get to the action and don't let up. The action in a hip-hop novel must is like extending the break in a rap song.
Now once you have the beat, only then do you try to get deep with the words. This is tricky because you don't want to jeapodize or over shadow the action/sex/cnflict, etc and lose your main audience. Just like in hip-hop music, the DJ, the beat, comes first. The MC, as long as he or she is on-time, can say just about anything. But if you can do both you'll make a mint (ala Biggie Smalls).
The hip-hop literature train about to pull out of the station, Amitenejah. The big publishers are have their tickets and are already packed. That is not to say give up. That is just to say you may need to board a different train.
Generally, I don't consider myself a hip-hopper. I definitely did, consider myself one, 20 years ago. As a result, I have a great nostalgic affinity toward hip-hop. I have most of the 12" 45's from back in the day. I've been to parties that Grand Master Flash (argurably the inventor of scratching) dee-jayed. I live 3 Blocks from the old Harlem World and I have the resources to live pretty much live anywhere I want. So hip-hip is very much a part of who I am. I guess in a sense one could say that I'm a indeed a hip-hopper, by default, from a developmental or cultural perspective.
I guess my original defintion will have to be modified to a cultural component.
Amitenejah looking forward to you product.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 09:43 am: |
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Troy:"Yukio, while people like Kevin Powell and perhaps even Dr. Cornell West may define themselves as hip-hoppers, their products will never sell as well as Zane's stuff will sell. Hip-Hoppers don't want to hear Cornell West rap - they want to hear Too Short. Likewise, Hip-Hoppers don't want to read Powell's Who's Gonna Take the Weight they wanna read The Coldest Winter Ever or Gangsta by K'wan."
Perhaps? No point of contention....Besides, you comments have nothing to do with my point.
I mentioned POwell and included my self as hip hoppers that read. In addition, some of us within the socalled "hip hop" demographic don't look like the ones many folks see on television or videos....i said nothing about authorship!
Interesting comments about the form....ala Kool Herc.....i think that hip hop lit. can actually be literary...but i'm not sure how...i've been thinking about this for a long time, ....ie, hip hop as a literary form....but it definitely wouldn't look like your discription...and it wouldn't necessary be for hip hop listeners, but it would use the language, the form, as some writers use Jazz and blues motifs....it would be embraced as an actual art form....which hip hop is, beyond what some artists produce.....
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 10:39 am: |
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Troy and Armitinejeh:
If you think The Source is reading you may as well shut down this site--A magazine that is about 9 tenths advertisting and pictures does not a book make. How many hip hoppers are reading--name anytbody you want--Terri McMillan, John Edgar Wideman, Toni Morrison, name anybodyI paraprase Frank Zappa on Music writing--people who can't write writing for people who can't read.
It is no secret that most young people, who are your people who listen to hip hop, do not read. I did not read very much compared to now, when I was young--I read for classes, read Comic books, Playboy (for the articles) and very little else.
Troy, you are in the business. Haven't you read the stats on how book readership is going down? Who do you think is playing all these video games, watching BET and MTV (oh, and in between, they are polishing off War and Peace.
Come on, fellas!
Yukio:
You and Kevin Powell. Well, that's two! I know Mr Powell and like him. How many of his books have been on the New York Times Best Seller List (go ahead, tell me that doesn't make any difference and that all the hip hoppers are passing around his book so it doesn't accurately reflect who is reading him)
As him. Ask him what his numbers are compared to the Source (can you guys believe they are siting The Source as evidence of readership? I suppose it should be put on the reading lists in schools. I read The Source. Mostly thugged out rappers sayin' "Hey yo! Dass mah word." over and over. E-40. "No fingerprints no evidence"
Spice 1. I know people are sometimes moved to compare The Geto Boyz "Mind Playin' Tricks on Me" to Robert Hayden's "Middle Passage" but we should switch to the decaf when we do.
Amintejeh:
Paul Beatty I would classify as a hip hop writer. What are his books doing? How are they selling? Nobody is reading those books. I know you are going to say that doesn't make any difference. Ask Paul what he thinks of more people every month reading the Amazing Spiderman that having read all four of his books (two poetry, two novels) to date.
Troy:
You are in the business. You, of all people, have to provide cold, clear headed analysis. The rest of us can be excused for these flights of fancy. You know how these black authors are out here struggling. You know that black women late 20's to about 50 are the largest reading demographic among black people and that they are reading romance novels.
Actually Troy, you amaze me with your hip hop literacy. I would have taken you for a John Tesh man, myself.
Re the hip hopper demographic--for the purpose of compiling an anthology, Tony Medina once defined it as people born between 1963 and l983--means that those born after 1983 may be something else--but when you get into teenagers you are really getting into the territory of those who don't read. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 12:53 pm: |
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CH: your comments about the source are funny!
You misunderstood my comments. As i stated to Troy, my comments identified people myself and Kevin Powell, for example, as hip hoppers who read! I said nothing about authorship nor writing...... |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 01:17 pm: |
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Yukio:
Soundz good. Do you think then that hip hoppers should be encouraged to read more of Kevin, Tony Medina, Willie Perdomo, Paul Beatty, Asha Bendele, Andrea Wren, Jessica Care Moore--does Carl Hancock Rux write? He did this cut on Our Souls Have Grown Deep Like the Rivers-"No Black Male Show" that turned it out.
There was this woman did this cut on there called "Project Princess"==Tracey Morris?--fascinatingy good.
There are the Def Poetry Jam people--it seems most of them are doing poetry.
Another thing has come to mind--by writing hip hop lit as opposed to lit, is a writer not putting his or herself into a box? |
Katrina Merriwether
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 01:23 pm: |
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If Paul Beatty and Jessica Care Moore aren't authentic Hip Hop authors...then I don't know who is.
Beatty is just an intellectual version of Sista Souljah and Shannon Holmes.
Chris: Everyone's in a Box. No matter what they write. Think about it. But Hip Hop Lit is just the next expression in black lit. It'll be something else one day.
Personally, I think there's going to be an explosion in Bi-Racial lit next. A renaissance centering around the results of the interracial explosion.
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 02:06 pm: |
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Katrina:
Paul Beaty and Jessica Care Moore ARE authentic Hip Hop authors--and their low sales figures prove it.
Beatty I thought, along with Sapphire, was one of the most significant poets of the 90's. His two books of poetry were revolutionary, his two novels funny and topical. He writes to and for the hip hop generation--and they don't buy his books.
Maybe somebody can explain it to me. |
Amitenejah
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 07:32 pm: |
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Brother Troy:
[this is some great stuff, spoken like a true literary pimp]
"...Again the trick is to produce work that hip-hoppers want to read.... Kool Herc, said what made his dee-jaying so popular was that he got rid of all the anticipation and went straight for the break in the song and extended it.
This is probably the key to this genre. Don't waste time developing characters or dialogue which is too deep, just get to the action and don't let up. The action in a hip-hop novel must is like extending the break in a rap song.
Now once you have the beat, only then do you try to get deep with the words. This is tricky because you don't want to jeapodize or over shadow the action/sex/cnflict, etc and lose your main audience. Just like in hip-hop music, the DJ, the beat, comes first. The MC, as long as he or she is on-time, can say just about anything. But if you can do both you'll make a mint...."
Dammmmmmmmm, proverbial, prophetic, and profitable; pure poetry.
"The hip-hop literature train about to pull out of the station, Amitenejah. The big publishers are have their tickets and are already packed. That is not to say give up. That is just to say you may need to board a different train."
Yes, you are correct, I see that train pulling off as we speak, however, from my position here on this plane, cleared for take off,[smile] all I need are a few good writers so we could take off.
Actually, upon closer inspection, your skills, experiences, and resources place you squarely in the perfect place, especially if you collaborate with someone like Yukio, for a Hip Hop Lit. Best Seller.
If I could be a part of such colab (as a joint venture) I would certainly entertain serious dialogue.
____________________
Brother C. Hayden:
This isn’t about who is the best, if everyone is on board, or even if the material is academically sound, for me it’s about an empowering Black message that will inspire our people and make money at the same time if handled correctly.
Like Yukio and Troy, I too was amused (in a non-patronizing way) by what you wrote.
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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 09:56 pm: |
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Amitenejah: "Pimping ain't easy"
Chris sales are driven by many factors. Low sales do not mean the book is poorly written, or does not have an audience - even in the hip-hop community. Low sales can result, of course, from inadequate promotion. Jessica Care Moore (http://authors.aalbc.com/jessica.htm) for example, is one of the top selling authors on this site. People here and others like us know Jessica, but few others do. I sure less people know Beatty.
Look, when I was a teenager the white boys were running around saying "disco sucks" and rap was just garbage - if they knew Rap was back then. Today white boys are the biggest consumers of hip-hop music. Jessica, Beatty or others like them will find an audience and see bigger sales.
Of course timing is everything. Jessica Care Moore may be to the coming queen of hip-hop lit what Gil Scott Heron is to Jay Z.
There is an audience waiting to be entertained. In much the same way MTV slept on Rap allowing BET to pick up the slack and thereby helping to make Robert Johnson a Billionarie. "Pimping at Easy" but it sure can be profitable.
...but money is not everything my Brothers and Sisters
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Cynique
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 11:01 pm: |
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To me, Hip Hop seems to be such a fragmented nebulous lifestyle, riddled with so many inconsistenies, that I wonder how it can be categorized as a cohesive philosophy of life. I've never understood how hip-hoppers could reconcile their preoccupation with the bling-bling while they spout their pseudo credo of "keeping it real; and how they have co-opted the word "Peace", in an atmosphere of murder and violence. I also think hip-hoppers take themselves much too seriously and tend to ignore the negative image the population at large has of them and their polluted standards. OK, I'm ready to hear it. LOL |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:25 am: |
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All:
Cynique is on to something else that raises a difficulty with writing, publishing or promoting hip hop literature--despite all the hype about hip hop taking over the world, etc, there are large numbers of people who don't like it. They are totally turned off when they hear the word. This will include large numbers of potential readers. I know about positive hip hop, Mos Def and Public Enemy and Arrested Development--but I took time to study it.
To a lot of people it is gangsta rap, party music, glorification of pimpin, groups that look like a police lineup with several pounds of metal in their mouths--this is what they see when they brush by the magazine rack and look at the cover of the Source and that is as close as they will or want to get to it.
It seems like a limiting move to me. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 01:23 pm: |
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damn...i wish i had time to respond to everyone....Chris, yeah i do think folk need to read the socalled hip hop intellectuals...and whatever else is worth reading....Common reads, talib qweli reads, Mos Def reads, and many others read, but like any artform, you're going to have a heterogenousness of sorts....everyone can not be an intellectual.....some folk gotta talk about shacking what ya mama gave ya! and there is an artistic sensibility to that as well, which is evidenced in blues...and some of the better of the sexually explicit poetry and literature...
As cyniques comments suggests hip hop is fragmented, contradictory, etc...but i don't any music or artform or language that has come from us that is not......once we institutionalize and categorize things we recreate these comprehensive and neat classifications, but most art form in their operation are not really neat...though there are usually things that one can clearly differentiate from one artform from the other......good day.....gotta catch the bus! |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 02:16 pm: |
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Troy:
You keep talking music when we're talking books--the white boys who consume rap are not reading white books either in any large numbers--again the romance category boasts the biggest sales and older women are the consumers--you got two demographics/groups in which there is very little overlap--readers and consumers of popular music.
Kevin Powell, Tony Medina, and others have been at it since 1992's In The Tradition--they have loyal followings but small--their hip hop credentials are impeccable, they have street credibility, they write well but the kids ain't reading them or anybody--not a new state of affairs certainly.
There is an audience waiting to be entertained? Numbers? Location?
They are being entertained--movies, dvds, cds, videogames, the internet--
I have been doing a lot of research into P-Funk lately. I was wondering what made an old soul music, doowopper like George Clinton start Funkadelic. I had forgotten 1972 when I saw Funkadelic in Champaign Illinois and became a mad fan.
I forgot I was already listening to Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, and a lot of white rock--The Cream, The Who, Led Zeppelin. George knew that there were plenty of black people like me who were listening to this music already but had Black Power sensibilities, had grown up with gospel and soul music.
In other words it was not a stab in the dark but a calculated move that paid off brilliantly a few years after.
Authors want people to read their books. Lots of them. If publishing companies don't get a lot of people to read their books, they close up. One reason nobody will touch poetry with a ten foot pole is that fantastic sales in poetry are considered 10,000 copies. Poetry presses regularly publish limited editions of as little as 50 books.
I suppose if hip hop writers are willing to endure that, then it can be done.
But ain't "blwoin' up" another hip hop expression? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 07:45 pm: |
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Isn't hip hop literature just a form of the "noir" genre??
BTW, I have asked people who identify themselves as hip-hoppers just what does being a hip hopper mean? And they seem hard-pressed to give me a coherent answer. Mary J. Bligh is the diva of hip hop, and who is she but an ex-ghettoite who drapes herself in designer threads and platinum jewelry, and blond hair extensions and probably can't remember the last time she read a book. Ditto for Lil Kim. Yes, hip-hop poet Lauryn Hill has some literaracy but she seems to a conflicted soul probably because she is stuck in the constraints of her hip hop image. This is why I dismiss hip-hopness as a sham. And my cynicism is further reinforced by the affectation of wearing dread locks, a "do" that has no roots in AA culture. Don't get me wrong, I like some Rap music and I think people have a right to call themselves anythng they want, but hip-hoppers shouldn't be surprised if other people don't like them or take them seriously. |
anon
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 25, 2003 - 03:19 am: |
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i don't think asking for definitions will ever do it; the music iz young for that...though if u ask KRS ONe he'd probably have a one for ya....once hip hop is institutionalized by academics then you'll have your definition (once whites take anything negros wanna study it..and then other black folk wanna accept shit..shit'd folk was calling blues devil's music...jazz was noise....but i don't think that is important....it is an oral jazz with words....brothas and sistas doin free styles on the corner...playin with words, pickin people out of the crowd and rollin with that story...anotha cat flips the story anotha way wit the same plot....so many styles...that storyteller, the comedian, battle rappers..it's serious.....
What does Mary J not reading books or being ex-ghetto, though for us who are part of the culture, ghetto is yo behavior, have to do with hip hop being legitimate....
i think some of ya speaking as an older generation, with no patience and understanding |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 01:00 pm: |
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anon:
The hiphop generation tends to take itself too seriously and lacks a sense of humor--my general observations--not 100%. Folks can take a sensitivity about identity as obfuscation or a real lack of self identification. It is all that, and it ain't
Furthermore, 'Tis better to light a candle than to curse the darkness. There are many who genuinely are curious and have been out of the loop--specially if we have stopped compulsively buying cds, going to dances and listening to the radio--
Cynique:
For a general definition see
http://www.cbmr.org/styles/hiphop.htm
For my favorite online hip hop site see
http://www.daveyd.com/
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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 03:13 pm: |
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Chris, much of what I wrote speaks directly to books. Anything I’ve mentioned regarding music was to help illustrate parallels between music and literature – failure to recognize those parallels does not mean they don’t exist.
Chris, I can see why you might say you got two demographics/groups in which there is very little overlap--readers and consumers of popular music. Again, because you say this does not make it true. Even if you were 100% right today, what makes you think this would be true tomorrow?
consumers of popular music does not define Hip-Hop
Now I actually agree, in a sense, with Cynique’s comments from December 22, 2003. However, that does not negate the influence the hip-hop culture and it certainly does not mean that there is an untapped hip-hop readers market.
Chris I once shared a podium with Davey D, almost 5 years ago. Why would an institution pay the founders of a hip-hop website and book website to speak together (http://aalbc.com/images/troyanddaveyd.jpg)?
I’ll tell you: the reason is hip-hoppers read and readers are hip-hop. It is just the options are limited in this space. I would not have thought this was news and necessary to state, but given how many times I’ve heard Black men don’t read why should I be surprised.
Based upon my observations the premise behind Amitenejah’s original post is sound.
"Hip Hop Lit., is the up and coming thing; novels based on standard themes within the hip hop genre. It’s sure to make many millions, I’m hoping some of you are doing what you can to position yourself for a substantial piece of the ‘hip hop lit.’ pie. White folk, and the world market will buy this product like crazy."
Perhaps because there is no clear definition of hip-hop culture the demographic is impossible to nail down. Even the existence of a “hip-hop” culture is often dismissed (I’ve done this myself) or ignored. None of this means there is not a audience that is underserved. The term "hip-hop" is as good as any, to describe this audience.
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JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 07:23 pm: |
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If the audience (hip hop) is impossible to nail down then how can one make a statment that this audience reads? Can't make a general statement then when asked to back up with some facts or numbers, then come back and state, the audience can't really be identify. You say this audience (hip hop) are underserved, in the terms of available literature but then if this audience isn't defined, how does a writer begin to write for them? |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 12:29 am: |
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Interesting comments, btw, i hope everyone had a merry x-mas...CH, i think most young folk, generationally speaking, take themselves too seriously, for it is only recent that they are really self-conscious of themselves in relationship to others.
I think we should definitely consider/reconsider what Troy, and then I, began to talk about, which is besides having topics that are relevant for socalled hip hoppers, how can authors utilize hip hop as a literary form? In consideration of this question, would we say that the jazz audience read/reads literature using jazz as a literary form? Or consider Gayl Jones' COrregidora, which is known as a blues piece....is the blues audience reading this literature?
In other words, does it do us any good differentiating the hip hop consumers with literary(could also be hip hop, like myself) consumers.... for example, we have some skilled spoken word poets and then we have those cats pausing every ten seconds, ending their statements with words that rhymed with the last line.....we have commercial and literary literature...what will literary hip hop fiction look like....i say, in my opinion, john edgar wideman has been doing both jazz and hip hop in literature for sometime....this is, i think, because of his basketball background, the improvisationist of black lit! CH, what u think....i think if we look at JEW's(intereting acronym) literture and its transformation with Damballah (triology) we can make connections with jazz and hip hop....HOlla! |
Beenie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 01:40 am: |
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There's NO-thing "hip hop" in Wideman's work. You're way off the mark Yukio.
As someone already mentioned, Paul Beatty is a young "literary" lion and totally hip hop at the same time. You should read his work to realize that there really is such a thing as a hip hop novel. "White Boy Shuffle" is the preiminent hip hop novel...or at least runs neck in neck with Sister Souljah's "Coldest Winter Ever".
Both those two books are shining examples of what a hip hop novel is. And in Souljah's case, the entire hip hop community is always debating about her two books. You must be old folks here, because the audience for hip hop is not only tangible...but in scratch and D.J. circles, there are certain BOOKS that we talk about as "our own". "Coldest Winter Ever" being the most talked about so far.
Hip hop "people" definitely read Sister Souljah and consider her to be a hip hop writer. But Paul Beatty is 10 times more talented than she is and he's more underground.
Shannon Holmes is more "ghetto" than hip hop styled. He writes street books.
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JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 03:14 am: |
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Beenie, could you name some of these hip hop lit books that are talked about in the scratch and DJ circles? I would think, their literature reading list has to be consist of more than just 2 writers and about 5 fiction books. |
Amitenejah
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 04:00 am: |
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This is too much, first we get called 'old' then they proceed to take us to school,like we are children (smile):
[Beenie] "Hip hop "people" definitely read Sister Souljah and consider her to be a hip hop writer. But Paul Beatty is 10 times more talented than she is and he's more underground.
Shannon Holmes is more "ghetto" than hip hop styled. He writes street books."
Ok, I'm listening.
1) What is the difference between 'ghetto' and 'hip hop' styles when writing.
2) I thought Sister Souljah's book [I didn't read] was more biographical. To whatever extent it was, please address the following:
a) is it that SHE is hip hop and wrote about herself, ('innate license') or
b) in spite of her being a hip hop artist, her writing style was hip hop, ('aquired license') or
c) other.
3) What makes Paul Beatty "more underground":
is it his writing style, the number of books sold, or other?
4) What are the lines of demarcation between 'hip hop', 'ghetto', 'underground', and 'street' books? Furthermore, are these possible subsets of a larger set ie: hip hop lit; and are there any other subsets?
Finally,
5) Do YOU believe people are yearning for a lot more hip hop lit?
The above questions were addressed primarily to 'Beenie' and 'anon', but are open to all. [now, let me go back to my rocking chair] |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 10:43 am: |
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Troy:
Once again, you have brought up no numbers, no demographics no facts.
I took the liberty in looking at recent editions of The Source and Vibe magazine too see what books they may be touting.
Vibe didn't even have a book corner, readers corner what have you--plenty of advertising and columns and record reviews and music stories and pictures the one meaty story I remember was about Cambodian gangbangers who have been deported back to Cambodia.
At least the brothers at The Source did dedicate some space--though it was about half a page. Most of that was promoting KRS-1's new book, a collection of his thought. In a brief question and answer, he said he doesn't read anymore. He gets out and has conversations with people.
Practically from the horse's mouth.
The rest of the books were books on tattoos, grafitti art--there was one book of fiction by Omar Tyree that would qualify as a real book.
Why did they have you and Davey D (proprietors and owners of two of my favorite websites) on a panel? Maybe because you were examples of black people on the web--I think it is open to many interpretations.
The proof is in the grooves and the numbers. You still haven't showed any.
And black men don't read--fiction.
Your move.
Yukio:
I have to agree with Beenie. JEW is not hip hop (when he has hip hop characters in his books--was it Two Cities he was talking about gang members, he generally speaks about them from the pov of an older person threatened by these folk) |
Kevin Powell
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 11:58 am: |
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Good day to you all. Troy asked me to participate in this discussion, at least this one time. I want to clarify and respond to a few things, based on what I've read thus far:
1) I am 37 and definitely a lifelong hiphop head, having participated in the culture on many levels the past 20plus years, be it as a dancer, a writer (taggin' on walls), a hiphop journalist and founding staff member at VIBE in 1992, the curator of the very first hiphop exhibit at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland back in 1999, and one of my companies, The Colored Orphans Productions, represents four very talented and young hiphop producers from the Bronx. I say this to say that we need to be careful in these discussions when we say who is and who is not hiphop, particularly if we have not done the necessary background research to find out how and when folks came to hiphop, and why. And as Bakari Kitwana argues in his book, The Hiphop Generation, this generation is roughly folks born around 1965 up until about 1980. So that covers folks like myself as well as, say, one of my business partners, who is only 23. It is about shared sensibilities, shared language, and understanding, on a real basic level, that hiphop is making something out of nothing, of winning on our own terms, of the invisible becoming visible. Now of course we know hiphop has been mightily coopted and commodified by the White male corporate power structure, and what is being passed off as hiphop is more often than not an aberration. I see that a few folks have referenced my new book, Who's Gonna Take The Weight? Manhood, Race, and Power in America. But I would encourage folks to read it because I talk at length in the book about Black America since the 1960s, about the Civil Rights era, and how hiphop literally overlaps with that time. We gotta remember that Dr. King was trying to organize poor folks at the end of his life because he understood integration meant nothing if the majority of us remained poor. Well, we know it was poor African Americans, poor Puerto Ricans, and poor West Indians who created hiphop. There is much more to add, but my point is that in order to have these conversations I think it is mad important to place hiphop in its proper socioeconomic context.
2) I personally did not get into writing to be rich or famous, could care less if I ever wind up on the bestseller list of any publication, etc. I write because it is as important to me as breathing, and I have been doing it since I was 11 years old, I do it because my mother is semi-literate, and because my grandparents were illiterate. I do it because I have an appreciation for the craft of writing, and because I have a love for the great literature we as Black folks have created here in the States, in Canada, in the Caribbean, in the U.K., and, of course, in Africa. This conversation seems to focus too much on book sales, who is reading and who is not reading.
FYI, Who's Gonna Take The Weight? is the bestselling of my six books to date, and MAD folks who can be classified as the hiphop generation or the hiphop community are reading it. I just spoke the other day at the Brooklyn Public Library at Grand Army Plaza and about 70 teenagers, all of whom are serious hiphop heads, some ex-cons at 15, 16, had already read my book. I say this to say we gotta be real careful about making sweeping generalizations. Book sales does not mean folks are not reading the book, passing the book around, making copies of the book, etc. I know heads are reading my work because I hear it on the streets, in my barbershop, in prisons, on college campuses, etc. I think a better model for us is Langston Hughes, who was NEVER a bestselling author, but 101 years after his birth he remains a fixture in the literary world because he was able to depict and touch the lives of average, everyday folks. And he made peace with doing the work he thought necessary, irregardless of accolades, fame, money, etc. That is what I am about, and have been about since I moved to New York City, from New Jersey, in 1990.
3) Writers like Paul Beatty, Jessica Care Moore, asha bandele, Tony Medina and others were mentioned. All my peers, all folks I respect greatly. Some of us are better known than others, for sure. Some of us sell, some of us do not. But I thing I respect about these writers is their dedication to craft, to pushing themselves to be better writers, thinkers, all of that. I have NO PROBLEM with what is now being passed off as Black literature, be it the so-called hiphop novels, or the Black romance stuff, EXCEPT FOR ONE THING: a lot of it is not very good, a number of the books I have read, that these big houses are pushing, do not up the ante on the quality of Black literature, and, oftentimes, these books, like some of our music today that is not very good, gets pushed far more than the writers who take the craft seriously. Where I give some of these less polished writers credit is in the self-promotion department. Writers who want to be taken seriously as writers seem to fail miserably at letting folks know they exist. That is on them.
One of the things I am doing with my new book, for example, is a national speaking tour called the State of Black Men in America Tour. FYI, I make much of my living speaking around the country, and have been doing so for a number of years. So I know how my books move after a speech. And the themes I deal with in the book are so important to me that I wanted to create a space where we could talk seriously AND critically, about the Civil Rights era, about hiphop, about manhood/Black manhood in America, etc. MOST Black writers are NEVER going to get the kind of support they need and deserve from mainstream houses, so we have to create those spaces for ourselves. Same as it ever was, nahmean? So I am literally taking the tour to a Black community in at least 15 major cities in 2004, because I am not going to allow folks to tell me that my people do not read, do not think, do not want to grow and evolve. That is simply untrue.
4) ANY writer of this era is going to be influenced by hiphop in some way. FYI, Sister Souljah went to college together, at Rutgers University, and we were hiphop then, working with artists, etc., and we are hiphop now. Langston Hughes, a product of the blues/1920s, had the blues all over his work. Writers like Sonia Sanche and Amiri Baraka, products of the 1960s, had jazz and soul motifs through their work. The music of any era will always influence other art forms, at least for us. Because we are a musical people.
5) Last thing, and I THANK YOU ALL for tolerating my longwindedness, but you all raised some GREAT points/questions, and I simply wanted to respond: young people DO read if the books, material, are taken to them, in an accessible way. This is not just about hiphop heads, or young Black and Latino people. Fact is we live in a society today that does not encourage reading across the board. I meet ADULTS, old and young, who tell me they have not read a book in YEARS, or that they HATE reading. Our society encourages us to be spectators, to watch television, go to the movies, anything but reading. The society has essentially been dumbed down, one is considered corny or a nerd for reading, often, and it is now cool or hip to be ignorant, and ignorance is rewarded. Look who the president of the United States is, for example.
So I think the mission for those of us who care is to figure out creative ways to engage folks around reading, critical dialogue, the whole nine yards, and to make sure we talk up the books heads need to reading, nahmean? I have NO PROBLEM with the Black romance novels, or the new genre of hiphop novels, for example. I DO have a problem if folks are not being encourage to check out Paul Beatty as well.
Many blessings to you all,
Kevin Powell |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 01:51 pm: |
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Kevin, thanks for droppping by and sharing your knowledge on books and hiphop.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 08:41 pm: |
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Kevin Powell:
I was very intrigued with the part of your hip-hop definition that referred to hip-hoppers as being people who "make something from nothing," and who are interested in "winning on their own terms." Finally I get it! So, is it significant that this is also how a "trickster" is defined?? I noted, too, that hip-hoppers' birth dates are confined to a certain time period. Ummmm. On so many occasions have I heard a younger person excuse the fact that he or she knows nothing about a noteworthy event - because "it happened before I was born." Sooo, it would seem that hip-hop is a box, not a sphere. To me, it's also a bore. But, pay me no mind. Rap on. |
Amitenejah
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 09:52 pm: |
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Cynique:
I love your messages, they are so, so, ... you.
I'm laughing all over the place.
Clearly, the 'hip hop definition' could also be positively identified with 'striver', 'farmer', 'teacher', 'writer' 'motivator' and most of all God.
_______________
Troy, like a masterful instructor, you have fashioned an otherwise plain and simple message into a discussion worthy of college credits.
Thank you.
______________________
To all:
Have a joyfilled Kwanzaa and a prosperous new year.
peace
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Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 02:55 am: |
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Kevin wrote: " ...I simply wanted to respond: young people DO read if the books, material, are taken to them, in an accessible way. This is not just about hiphop heads, or young Black and Latino people. Fact is we live in a society today that does not encourage reading across the board. I meet ADULTS, old and young, who tell me they have not read a book in YEARS, or that they HATE reading. Our society encourages us to be spectators, to watch television, go to the movies, anything but reading. The society has essentially been dumbed down, one is considered corny or a nerd for reading, often, and it is now cool or hip to be ignorant, and ignorance is rewarded.
So Chris' statement that the hip hop generation don't read, still stands.
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Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 01:31 pm: |
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Chris I know you are familiar with Kevin's work and I know you are aware of his hip-hop credentials. Now in that context, and after reading Kevin's entire post. Has your position changed one iota?
Chris I'm not sure what staementments I made that you did not find factual. I'm not sitting here making shit up. I've sold books for Kevin in a couple of venues http://events.aalbc.com/kevin.htm and hip hoppers do buy books (presumably they are reading them). Kevin also made a strong point about books sales not being a whole accurate indicator or readership.
Chris I told you why Davey D and I were on the same stage. Why would it be "open to many interpretations"? AALBC.com one of your favorite sites - Thanks!
Anonymous while you may feel Chris' statement stands, lets see if Chris has changed his position.
Amitenejah, few of the threads started here are unworthy of a much deeper discussion. One thing that makes a forum like interesting is that you really don't know who you are talking to. You can have an authority on a subject exchanging views with someone completely ignorant of that subject -- sometimes the results are enlightening and sometimes they are disasterous. Keep us posted on the progress of your foray into the hip-hop-lit genre
Cynique, please drop me an email when you get a minute.
Peace,
Y'all |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 10:45 pm: |
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Has anybody read K Elliott's Entangled this could very well be the best example of Hip-Hop street life fiction to date |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:55 am: |
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Kevin:
Long time no hear from or see. Great hearing from you--you sound well. Is that tour going to bring you to the STL?
Troy, Troy, Troy!
How long have I been posting on this site? When have you ever known me to change my position, even when dead wrong?
I did run across something that could make me change it if I could get some further facts and the figures.
Publisher's Weekly, December 8th, had a long article on African American Publishing (this article, by the way is something that you, who are in the business, should have been brandishing at me almost immediately. I recommend it to you. My bill for consulting services will arrive shortly)
At any rate, they were talking about hip hop books--they mentioned the recent book Tupac Resurrection had a first printing of 110,000 and that the publisher is having another 20,000 printed up (see that? numbers!)
They mentioned that his books of poetry The Rose That Grew from Concrete has sold something like 400,000 copies. They said further that a book on Kobe Bryant coming out is expected to sell big and that there is some anthology called The Hip Hop reader slated to come out next year.
Seems to prove your point, doesn't it? Not so fast. Who bought those books? I know you may assume that hiphoppers bought those books--but you know the old saw about what happens when you assume.
If someone can prove that the hiphop demographic bought those books it will prove that they are willing to read a certain kind of book, and that maybe anyone interested in selling to them should try to publish that type--books by and about hip hoppers--nonfiction, mostly.
(When I spoke of Keepin' It Real did that conjure up the spirit of Brutha Powell (that's a title of one of his books)
I stand by my earlier position. Of course one cannot say that hiphoppers don't read at all--that would mean that zero hiphoppers read and that ain't true.
But they remain a small portion of the market. I know too many baby boomer professionals that don't have any books or magazines in their homes and proud of it--
Of course if you could come up with some numbers instead of this anecdotal evidence--- |
CAREY
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 02:03 pm: |
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HANDLE'EM CHRIS....HANDLE'EM!
WAY TO GO MY BROTHER, YOU'RE HANGIN' TOUGH. KEEP THOSE HANDS MOVIN. YOU'RE DOING FINE.
I THINK YOU HAVE THEM ON THE RUN, YOU FLUSHED OUT THE BIG GUNS.......TROY & KEVIN.
BRINGING UP THE TUPAC BOOK WAS AN EXCELLENT MOVE. ON THE SURFACE IT WOULD SEEM AS IF YOU WERE RAISING THE WHITE FLAG BUT AS YOU SAID, NOT SO FAST. YOU JUST OPENED THE GYM AND TURNED THE LIGHTS ON, THE BALLS IN THEIR COURT. I FEEL YA 
cAREY |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 04:04 pm: |
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Carey:
As the Bartles and James boyz used to say, I thank you for your support. I'm a cagey ol' codger but actually my goal is not to show them up but so that we all can arrive at a happy medium.
How was your holidays, my brother? You sound good. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 05:13 pm: |
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Chris:
Yeah, I know your stands are all about the exchange of ideas and thought, I like that in ya.
I like the fact that you don't harbor any fear on taking a position that stands out sharply and clearly from the prevailing opinions. Many prefer the backslaps received from a popular view. Without you there wouldn't be any them.
You asked how my holidays have been. Well, it's been tough......real tough. At times I've felt like a tree ornament that's missing it's hanger or string by which it's hung on the tree. I'm here, I'm me, but I am not shining and/or turning in the tree like the rest of the ornaments because I am missing my support. Although my rock is gone and Christmas is not the same, I still have many things to be gratful for. I am still a father, a grandpa and a son and therefore blessed to have others that love and need me. That's what Christmas is all about ain't it, love and family.
I did receive some nice gifts one of which was the book The Known World. I can't wait to finish it so I can have an exchange with Crystal. The same Crystal that responded with "Just read the dang book Carey", after I had asked her a question about it LOL.
Thanks Chris for asking about my holidays, I needed to remind myself of how blessed I am. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 11:33 am: |
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Interesting exchanges....
Kevin POwell....love ya comments, gotta check the book, though i loathe nonfiction.
CH: I didn't know that you'd maintain a position even when your wrong. Were you serious about that? Also, when i referenced JEW, i wasn't talking about his characters, but his writing style.....the point of that particular post was to differientiate between plot and characters, on the one hand, and style and form, on the other hand. For example, if we read wideman's early literature, his style and themes, etc.. primarily emerged from an European tradition even though the characters were mostly black. There is scholarship on his writing which argues this....as well as the Conversatiosn with JEW,where he basically makes the same point....
Anonymous...interesting how we interpret things differently....the quote you used says that "young people DO read if the books," though they may not purchase the books. Furthermore, it says that people in general don't read.
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 01:40 pm: |
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Yukio:
I would still have to disagree about Wideman being hip hop if we discuss him with regard to his writing style. His style carries none of the tags, rhythms or--dare I say it--flava of hip hop. Compare him to Zane. Snoop Doggy Dogg ("The Doggfatha"--his biography) Sanyika Shakur's "Monster". Paul Beatty (White Boy Shuffle. Tuff)
Wideman has none of the same cultural references. Little of the humor--he is mostly deadly serious.
He is jazz. He is the blues. He is soul music and gospel. He was of course born in 1941 or thereabouts, so he is actually pre Baby Boom.
His writing still comes from two of his primary stylistic influences--Joyce and Eliot. He has said so himself. It's just that when you read A Glance Away you can see Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man a lot clearer, in the later works you hear more the voice of Homewood (and in this, he echoes Joyce--for didn't he use Irish lilts and terms?)
I am always serious. Even when I am being silly. |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 12:04 am: |
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We still have no figures to know what percentage of all readers and book buyers are from this demographic. This group buys movie tickets, CDs, hip hop gear, etc. So, they have the money. I find it hard to believe there are only 2 or 3 writers that interest this group. And, why don't more writers emulate what these writers are doing to reach these readers?
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 06:37 am: |
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Amitenejah original argument was that "Hip Hop Lit" (HHL) is going to explode in popularity and the advent of this genre will blossoms into great promise and opportunity for writers (especially Black ones). He didn't initially say that ONLY "Hip Hoppers" (HH'ers) will read "HHL". In fact, in his initial post Amitenejah said, "White folk, and the world market will buy this product like crazy." Yet, it seems this discussion unnecessarily detoured into disagreement about defining HH'ers, whether HH'ers read and what they'd read.
Chris, I, like you, would wager young people don't read as frequently as older people, though I can't cite statistics. Besides, I am little suspicious about alleged book reading studies, anyway. I have been a fairly ardent/regular consumer of books for decades yet I don't ever recall being asked/interviewed about my reading habits.
And I agree The Source (and almost all other consumer magazines) hardly constitutes real reading. But I have recently attended several book reading/signing and I was gratified to find the many of the attendees appeared quite young.
And actually, I imagine many non-HH'ers might become drawn to HHL, if for no other reason but the same reasons many people (secretly) listen to HH music and (pornographically) gawk at gangster/horror movies and car crashes.
Also, I think HHL might ultimately find even MORE of an audience with non-Blacks than other Black books because younger White LOVE HH. HH'ers in general (for better/worse) tend to be less overtly critical of White people than other Black literary genres. So non-Black readers might read HHL because they find it to be less condemnatory of them.
And +85% of the millions of worldwide purchasers of HH music are NOT African American. It is conceivable that as some of them mature...and begin to READ more...many might become drawn to HH-related subject matter.
Heck! Hip Hop is selling houses, soda, clothing (lil Kim is pimpin' Ol' Navy for Christ Sake!), cars, etc to folks of all races/creeds all over the world. So why wouldn't a segment of the reading populous who buy those HH-marketed products also consider reading HH-theme books?
Chris, I agree with you the book market is contracting. Although, I am not sure that is a permanent market condition because I think the endearing intimacy of reading a book is uniquely special and enduring experience that many young people will grow to appreciate as they mature.
And couldn't you make similarly woeful arguments about publishing almost any kind of book. The majority of ALL books hardly make a dime for the author/publisher. So why should anyone be any more pessimistic about HHL than about any other books?
Writing and publishing ANY book, no matter its genre is at the very BEST an act of faith that others might embrace the author's vision. But if the HHL books are well-written, informative, entertaining and aggressively marketed, they will find their place in the literary sun. And HHL will find its audience, even among those who don't necessarily pray to the ghosts of Tupac and Biggie. |
JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 11:30 am: |
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So ABM, you continued with others in veering from the orginal premise by Amitenejah. ROFL
You asked this question: So why wouldn't a segment of the reading populous who buy those HH-marketed products also consider reading HH-theme books?
But, this is where the conversation detoured as you claimed, because, how would you define "HH-theme books"? Are there any books presently on the shelves which you as deem as "HH-theme books?" If so, who is the targeted audience? readers in general? the hip hop audience? those who will actually buy the books?
And, White folk have always like the more seedier and less than flattering images and stories about Black folks. That's nothing new.
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 02:12 pm: |
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JTF,
I'm not sure WHAT a HH-theme book would be. But it seems to me that history proves MOST things that Black people enjoy eventually become a part of popular culture. So why wouldn't books featuring mostly Black people & subject matter enjoy similar success.
And just because White people might become initially drawn to HHL for "unflattering" reasons does not mean that they (or anyone else) will or should be the ONLY thing that they receive from reading a book featuring HH.
I first starting dating my wife because she had big breasts. HAHAHA!!! |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 31, 2003 - 03:00 pm: |
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JTF,
I do, however, agree with you that this discussion would benefit from defining what is HHL. It is difficult to proffer effective support or rebut of something that is not clearly defined.
Is HHL a certain literary style, tempo or subject matter? And what epoch would HHL span? Are we talking about primarily the present day, the last 10 years or all of the events of the live of urban Blacks who grew up between ‘say’ 1978(?) through the present?
I suppose similar questions can be asked about HH music and culture in general.
Is HH culture simply a musical rhythm?
Or is HH a broader expression of behavior - including the music, clothing & hair fashion/styling, vernacular, anti-establishmentarianism, etc. - that both gloriously/dreadfully responds to circumstances heaped upon poor Black people who were born/bred in the post-Civil Right epoch?
I tend to think the latter is true. |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 05:53 pm: |
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Here is an interesting definition of hip-hop from Harry Allen:
Hip-Hop, n.,
(a) The practice of white supremacy by white people + (b) the reaction of Black people to (a).
Allen's definition, I believe, captures ABM's latest thoughs on a definition.
Harry is also in Kevin's anthology Step into a World: A Global Anthology of the New Black Literature
http://authors.aalbc.com/step_into_a_world.htm You may also read brief descriptions of the 40 or so authors who contributed to this book -- all of whom are argueably "hip-hop" authors.
Chris thanks for referring the article Talkin' About Black Books others my read the article on the PW web site http://www.publishersweekly.com/index.asp?layout=articleprint&articleid=CA340443 (if this link does not work you may sign up for a free 30 day membership and search for the article's title) the article, I had not read it, though PW does a similiar article every year.
Chris the article supports what I've been saying. About Tupac: Resurrection "Published in October, the book quickly went through a 110,000-copy first printing and S&S has gone back to press for another 20,000 copies." All I'm saying is that a book like this would not have been published 10 years ago. The audience who would have been interested in this book was being ignored. Remember I'm old enough to remember when MTV ignored rap videos. But MTV got wise and came out with Yo MTV Raps. Major publishing houses are doing the same thing. The statistics you are looking for, simply don't exist -- particularly without a clear definition of Hip-Hop. Now if you took my working definition from a couple of weeks ago i would venture a guess that the majority of the people who purchased Resurrection would fit into my definition. Of course this can't be "proven" with actual figures, however the anecdotal evidence is so strong as to make it almost obvious.
Major publishing houses only know what they have sold. They don't know, anymore than you or I, how many books a self-published author has sold. As a result, they can not be used as a definitive guage. All we do know is that they see the market potential hence their entrance. Major publishers have not created this market they are simply following the lead of self and smaller independent publishers (who have capitalized on the power of technology).
Out of curiosity, how many people reading this thread would be intrested in buying then reading Tupac: Resurrection
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743474341/aalbccom-20
JustTheFacts, I don't think white folks have cornered the market on liking "the more seedier and less than flattering images and stories about Black folks"
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JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 06:19 pm: |
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Troy,
Hip-Hop, n., (a) The practice of white supremacy by white people + (b) the reaction of Black people to (a).
Using this defintion, the Hip Hop generation includes every Black person on the planet, and goes back eons. This is way too general. Even the term Hip Hop isn't that old.
And, I said, "And, White folk have always like the more seedier and less than flattering images and stories about Black folks."
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 06:48 pm: |
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JTF,
You appear to be suggesting that "White people" interest in Hip Hop would be due primarily to the perception of some (perhaps you) that Hip Hop and all things that derive from it (e.g., music, style, vernacular, literature, etc.) inherently represents ONLY "...the more seedier and less than flattering images and stories about Black folks."?
Is that truly your opinion?
If so, then what you say about the appreciation many "White people" have for the performances/works of African American athletes, Blues/Jazz/R&B singers/musicians, actors, comedians, writers, directors, etc.?
Are universally beloved performances of Michael Jordan, BB King, Aretha Franklin, Denzel Washington, etc. "...seedier and less than flattering..." as well? |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 04, 2004 - 07:48 pm: |
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JustTheFacts, I'll follow up with you on these two points on the Culture Board when I get a minute...
Peace |
JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 01:44 pm: |
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Troy wrote:
Chris the article supports what I've been saying. About Tupac: Resurrection "Published in October, the book quickly went through a 110,000-copy first printing and S&S has gone back to press for another 20,000 copies." All I'm saying is that a book like this would not have been published 10 years ago. The audience who would have been interested in this book was being ignored. Remember I'm old enough to remember when MTV ignored rap videos. But MTV got wise and came out with Yo MTV Raps. Major publishing houses are doing the same thing. The statistics you are looking for, simply don't exist -- particularly without a clear definition of Hip-Hop. Now if you took my working definition from a couple of weeks ago i would venture a guess that the majority of the people who purchased Resurrection would fit into my definition. Of course this can't be "proven" with actual figures, however the anecdotal evidence is so strong as to make it almost obvious.
Troy, this is but one book. And, yes it might not have been written 10 years mainly because Tupac was alive. Couldn't resist that. Seriously, I think any artist that has been idolized as Tupac has been would also sell books regardless. Also, this is a companion book to a movie and a CD release. It's listed as autobiography but saw a line from an USA Today article that's it's an "illustarted scrapbook". (Even Hillary Clinton's autobiograhpy has sold more than 1 million copies.) This sounds more like a fan book than anything else. Wonder what other "hip hop" lit did the same people who brought this book buy and read. Tupac sold millions of CDs so I can see those who were fans of his as an artist would be interested in this book moreso than folks who perceived him as an author. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 03:38 pm: |
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JTF,
You should research the book sales of Ellison, Wright, Baldwin, Morrison, Hurston, etc. during much the height of their literary powers. Many of the finest AA books initially had paltry sales figures. Now, those works are at the very foundation of American thought and discourse and have inspired countless writers/readers worldwide.
Or let’s refer back to Hip Hop. 15 years ago, even the most popular HH records had sales numbers that paled in comparison to those of Pop, Rock, Country and even R&B. Now, Hip Hop is the dominant musical genre.
Truth is, fok's like you have been predicting the demise of HH since it began. Yet the music and almost everything else associated with it continues to grow in wealth, popularity and influence.
Also, do you assume that all of the young consumers of HH are going to 'disappear' after they turn 30 years old? No, they, like most, people will grow into responsible adults, raise families, pay bills and read books. And many of them are going to want to read something in a tone, style and subject matter that they are familiar with, something like HH.
And regarding Tupac Shakur:
Tupac was a wondrously talented and profoundly aware human being who, perhaps more than anyone else of the Post Civil Right era, reflected the triumphant and tragedy of what it means to be born a Black man. And it is for that reason, Tupac Shakur will prove to be ample musical/literary fodder for many current and future writers, including many of those who never embraced his embattled credo of "Thug Life".
Mark my words, JTF: Within the near future; Black, State and even Ivy League Colleges will sponsor graduate-level courses titled "In Search of Tupac". |
JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 04:49 pm: |
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ABM wrote:
You should research the book sales of Ellison, Wright, Baldwin, Morrison, Hurston, etc. during much the height of their literary powers. Many of the finest AA books initially had paltry sales figures. Now, those works are at the very foundation of American thought and discourse and have inspired countless writers/readers worldwide.
Personally, I think Morrison is still at her height. But what does the sales of all those authors have to do with the sales of one rapper's biography? Do you that there are other rappers who will follow in Tupac footsteps and sell as many pictorial autobiographies? Or do you think these rappers are going to start penning novels that will possibly sell 100K+ books?
ABM wrote:
Also, do you assume that all of the young consumers of HH are going to 'disappear' after they turn 30 years old? No, they, like most, people will grow into responsible adults, raise families, pay bills and read books. And many of them are going to want to read something in a tone, style and subject matter that they are familiar with, something like HH.
We can't even get a concrete definition of Hip Hop, what composes Hip Hop Lit or even identify these readers of Hip Hop Lit. So, see I haven't made any assumptions. You all keep moving the target, maybe that is why we can't hit the bull's eye. First Troy said this group can't be identify though he said they were readers. Then, it was suggested by Kevin that Hip Hoppers are those born between years 1965 to 1980. And, lastly, Troy provided a definition of Hip Hop which is included nearly everyone under the sun.
ABM wrote:
Truth is, fok's like you have been predicting the demise of HH since it began. Yet the music and almost everything else associated with it continues to grow in wealth, popularity and influence.
Show me one sentence that I have written that predicts the demise of Hip Hop? I'll help you out, you won't find one because I haven't written anything like that or even remotely close to that.
Yeah Hip Hop is dominate in sales now but how do we know there want be some other musical genre storming up the charts in 10, 20, 30, etc. years from now. Or there may be some spin off genre years from now. But I don't think just because one book which is really biography of an musical icon/idol that sold 100K copies will necessarily translate to all these millions and millions of readers interested in Hip Hop Lit. (I have to ask, do you consider Tupac's book to be Hip Hop Literature?) Since it's not even a novel, but a book with many pictures, then it's probably on par for a generation that was raised on videos, both TV and games, and whom seem to favor images.
And, finally, I know this is a discussion board for people to discuss things but can we at least read what's typed, instead of making all these assumptions based on what's not written? If you want to offer any commentary on whatever, that's fine but don't disguise it into a response to a question that's hasn't been asked or a response to point that's hasn't been raised.
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improphony
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 05:41 pm: |
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ABM stated:
You should research the book sales of Ellison, Wright, Baldwin, Morrison, Hurston, etc. during much the height of their literary powers. Many of the finest AA books initially had paltry sales figures. Now, those works are at the very foundation of American thought and discourse and have inspired countless writers/readers worldwide.
JustTheFacts replied:
Personally, I think Morrison is still at her height. But what does the sales of all those authors have to do with the sales of one rapper's biography? Do you that there are other rappers who will follow in Tupac footsteps and sell as many pictorial autobiographies? Or do you think these rappers are going to start penning novels that will possibly sell 100K+ books?
improphony replies:
Divine Days -- Leon Forrest
White: The Biography of Walter White, Mr. NAACP -- Kenneth Robert Janken
Harriet Jacobs: A Life -- Jean Fagan Yellin
Jazz Country: Ralph Ellison in America -- Horace A. Porter
Amiri Baraka: The Politics and Art of a Black Intellectual -- Jerry Gafio Watts
The Gnome Whirled -- Rumplestilskin
No, wait, I already voted. Those are next year's must reads.
INVISIBLE MAN
April 12th, 1952: Random House publishes Invisible Man
End of April: more than 6,000 copies sold @ $3.50
End of October: Another 7,500 copies sold
Reaches number eight on bestseller lists, finishes out of the top ten for 1952 (behind East of Eden, Old Man and the Sea, etc.)
1953: Wins National Book Award
"With greater sales came increased profits, since his contract had stipulated that after sales of more than 5,000, his royalties would escalate from 12.5 percent to 15 percent. After his advance of $5,500, Ellison cleared a profit $3,092.91 for the year of 1952. He sold another five thousand hardcover copies through the end of spring in 1953, after which the Signet paperback edition accounted for most of the sales. Whenever he gave a talk, he sold many copies."
(Source: Lawrence Jackson, "Ralph Ellison: Emergence of Genius")
*note: "another five thousand hardcover copies through spring in 1953" @ 15% of $3.50 = $750
NATIVE SON
Published: 1940
Less than six weeks after publication: 250,000 copies sold @ $5
Heads bestseller lists for 12 to 15 weeks
Book-of-the-Month Club selection
(Source: Margaret Walker, "Richard Wright: Daemonic Genius")
*note: 10% (let's say) of 250,000 hardcover copies after six weeks @ 10% of $5 = $125,000
FRANK YERBY
"Frank Yerby (1916-1991) found a successful formula for writing popular novels, or rather, the same novel over and over again. As a result, he sold millions upon millions of books, to become the best-selling African American author. Yerby's astonishing career began with "The Foxes of Harrow" published in 1946. It sold 500,000 copies in two months, and a million copies in its first year. In 1947 he followed up with a variation on the same plot entitled The Vixens. It sold even better, and Yerby began turning out a novel a year. Several were turned into profitable movies. What was his writing secret?"
(Source: Africana.com)
STEPHEN L. CARTER
$4.2 million per 2 novels |
Money Bags
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 09:31 pm: |
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IMPROPHONY
That is very interesting, even though some of your math is incorrect. It's a good thing you were not Mr. Wright's accountant in 1953. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 01:46 am: |
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The major problem with this discussion is that how to negotiate the tension between readers and listeners?
Amitenejah's premise, it seems, is that since hip hop sells as a musical form it will also sell as a literary form. Now, this poses problems. Firstly, how is hip hop defined? 2)Who are hip hoppers? 3) Are they readers? 4)What will hip hop lit. look like? I'm sure there are other questions, but i'll deal with these since they're the most salient.
1&2)I think we can safely use Troy's and Kevin Powell's definitions, especially Troy's point that some 50 year olds are hip hoppers. This is important, for demographics are primarily useful as a business tool, which is not necessarily interested in artistry (i'll get back to this later).
3&4)Now, this is the difficulty, because literary and musical consumption of the same genre is difficult to predict and quantify! Can we safely say that blues, jazz, and r&b listeners read blues, jazz, and r&b literature? Obviously, we would need these types of literature to make a sound conclusion, but we don't necessarily have it unless we talk about literary fiction, rather than commericial fiction. Gayl Jones, Ellison, Wideman, MOrrison, and others have used music as a motif and template for their literature, though as ABM had suggested they don't sell well, which puts a wrench in Amitenejah's premise. On the hand, if we consider commercial literature, which could sale well, then we can on the one hand, identify literature with hip hop themes(though the author may not call it hip hop literature). Most of the black commericial writers use hip hop themes, language, and often dress in their novels, but are these these readers hip hoppers?
So, another question is, Will a socalled hip hop demograpic tell us if there socalled hip hop literature will sell? Or a similar question, what good is the demographic?
In addition, if we consider hip hop's main consumers, white folk, then we also ask do these people generally read our fiction?
I have more questions than answers. I'm sorry!
I don't think that whites will purchase socalled hip hop fiction...reading is one thing and listening, dancing, feeling powerful and sexual is another thing. Also, reading is often a individual experience(besides school and book clubs), while music, though this is not always the case, is often a group experience. White don't read our literature in general, unless it is literary fiction. And only if it's taught in school, but these often wouldn't be hip hoppers; they'll be the socalled literary buffs, though one can be both.
I do think blacks folk, especially women, would purchase hip hop fiction. Although whites have historically listened to our music, they have not done the same with reading black literature. Now that we are reading, mostly commercial literature, hip hop themed literature could work, although i don't think the socalled hip hop listener will be the hip hop reader. Omar Tyree and EJD are full of hip hop language, themes, etc...though their not marketed as hip hip literature. This fact, suggests that socalled hip hop literature needs to be marketed differently and not necessaruily to the sterotypical young black male(or white male), bobing his head, riding the subway, bus, or his whip who reads the Source for new albums to listen to, lyrics and news to read, and/or pictures of parties, etc... the consumers will be those sistas(yes, black women) in the clubs who listen to the same music, buy the same magazine, and read EJD, Omar Tyree, Sista SOuljah, etc.......of course some brothers will read this fiction too, but I think women will read be the main readers, so that the fiction can not or should not necessarily represent the misoygnistic element of the music, but the sexual, romantic will sell. In other words, those with hip hop as the background: the music in the club, the language, the dress, baby momma drama is hip hop as well as r&b, even the story of a writer or artist could interest some sisters if it is marketed as sista-girl or you- go-girl fiction.
The literary fiction, ie using hip hop as a literary form, rather than purely as a theme, is another story. Generally, hip hoppers, men or women, will not be interested, for literary fiction is always for the few.
Also, we should differeniate the fiction from pictorials, autobiographies, and biographies. Again this will be particular to fans of a particular artist, as some has mentioned.
Although literary artists don't sell well, they'll effect culture in a significant way. Hip hop artists sell well, and few will effect culture in a sigificant way, but how do we transmit this to reading hip hop fiction rather than pictorials, autobiographies, and biographies? Tupac and Biggie did not write fiction!
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 04:14 am: |
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JTF,
I think that it is entirely possible that many Hip Hoppers might evolve into best selling authors. And why wouldn't they as many of them are bright, industrious, inspired people who have lived very interesting lives.
You continue to assert that Hip Hop can't be defined. I disagree. The definition of Hip Hop is clear and indelible to me. To paraphrase what I stated in a prior post:
Hip Hop is "...[an] expression of behavior - including the music, clothing & hair fashion/styling, vernacular, anti-establishmentarianism, etc. - that both gloriously/dreadfully responds to circumstances heaped upon poor Black people who were born/bred in the post-Civil Right epoch..." Moreover, HH is arguably the truest modern musical genre because it mirrors so much of America's socio-politico-economic landscape.
I mean, think about it: There's gangsta rap, dirty south, east coast rap, alternative rap, rock rap, country rap, trailer park rap, etc. What other form of American music has so closely reflects diverse, ever changing lives of youths. And THAT is the reason why HH has endured and will likely continue to thrive: It lives. It is born, breathes, feeds, grows, blossoms, matures, then dies...only to be reborn in a newer, fresher manifestation.
In many ways, HH is 'truer' than most of Motown (save Marvin Gaye) EVER was.
And, in spite of your attempting to disguise your distaste for HH, it is clear that you are a Hip Hop polemic (& I think I know who you REALLY are). But if I am in error, then score one 4 you chap or lassie.
You know what you 'think' more than do I. And I lack the benefit of seeing/hearing you.
Ok. Yeah...WHATEVER.
I ain't a fool. And I damn sure can read-between-the-lines of what someone is saying and interpret what they mean by observing what they are NOT saying.
You have expressed virtually no support/regard for the HH genre. Heck, you can't or refuse even to acknowledge that HH exist. So can we pretend we are intelligent fok's and call things as they are? If you don't dig HH, that's cool. But PULEASE be a GROWN man or woman and OPENLY state your views.
K?
As Troy, Thumper and others has repeatedly said, this is a great but flawed forum. Because no one will simply read another words here and completely interpret everything EXACTLY as the author might desire them to. The word "IT" may mean one thing to you and something TOTALLY different to another. Further, we lack the benefit of voice, body language, etc. to more clearly discern what is being conveyed.
So if you are going to post something here (or on other website), you are going to have to accept that if fok's don't like what you say, how you said it or what they think you mean, they are likely to proffer a rebuttal that may appear go astray from what you originally 'tried' to convey. In such situations, the mature thing to do is to either try to restate/clarify your position to others, agree to disagree with them or simply ignore them. |
Troy
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 07:58 am: |
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Here is some more anecedotal evidence of the success of hip-hop-lit. (Chris you'll be familiar with Tehut-Nine and Heru Ptah http://events.aalbc.com/slamking.htm)
A Hip-Hop Author in Search of a Publisher Finds One on the A Train
January 6, 2004
By DINITIA SMITH
Heru Ptah says he sold more than 10,000 copies of his novel,
"A Hip-Hop Story," on the streets and subways before it was republished by MTV.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/06/books/06HERU.html?ex=1074391594&ei=1&en=6e4c5a ad1c72ef6d
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JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 11:38 am: |
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ABM wrote:
I think that it is entirely possible that many Hip Hoppers might evolve into best selling authors. And why wouldn't they as many of them are bright, industrious, inspired people who have lived very interesting lives.
Again, do you consider Tupac's biography, to be Hip Hop Literature? What books have you read that you would classify as Hip Hop Literature?
ABM wrote:
You continue to assert that Hip Hop can't be defined.
Reading is so fundamental and obviously lacking by some posters. *I* didn't assert that Hip Hop couldn't be defined. I said that we can't seem to get a concrete defintion that we can at least agree upon to further a meaningful discussion. Wouldn't it be wise to at least have a common understanding of the terms being used before we go off rambling? I see this is the main problem. You keep coming back with what you **think** I am saying, thinking, feeling and asserting. I've asked questions to keep us on track and you come back with more of these tangeantial comments.
ABM wrote:
I disagree. The definition of Hip Hop is clear and indelible to me. To paraphrase what I stated in a prior post:
Hip Hop is "...[an] expression of behavior - including the music, clothing & hair fashion/styling, vernacular, anti-establishmentarianism, etc. - that both
gloriously/dreadfully responds to circumstances heaped upon poor Black people who were born/bred in the post-Civil Right epoch..." Moreover, HH is arguably the truest modern musical genre because it mirrors so much of America's socio-politico-economic landscape.
Okay, so this is "your" definition. And, you've included "those who were born/bred in the post-Civil Rights epoch." We have at least 3 different thoughts on a definition of Hip Hop and the ages of those in that demographic. Interesting that two are of the opposite extremes.
ABM wrote:
And, in spite of your attempting to disguise your distaste for HH, it is clear that you are a Hip Hop polemic (& I think I know who you REALLY are). But if I am in error, then score one 4 you chap or lassie.
Again, I have made no comments pro or con regarding Hip Hop. But, if you insist on reading words that I haven't written, then I suggest that you make an appointment with mental health professional. I am sincere and serious.
ABM wrote:
You know what you 'think' more than do I.
So, why do you insist on telling me what I think?
ABM wrote:
I ain't a fool. And I damn sure can read-between-the-lines of what someone is saying and interpret what they mean by observing what they are NOT saying.
So, you know what I mean and my opinion by what I haven't written? This would really be funny if you wasn't so convinced that you're right. I see Michael Jackson isn't the only living in Neverland.
ABM wrote:
You have expressed virtually no support/regard for the HH genre.
And, I haven't expressed any non-support/disregard for the Hip Hop genre either. But, at this point I don't expect you to admit this since you're painted yourself in this corner and though given a few life lines to get out, you keep tossing them aside. This speaks volumes to me. Again, this isn't whether I love, like or loathe Hip Hop. We are trying to identify Hip Hop Literature and the demographic of those who interested in reading it.
ABM wrote:
Heck, you can't or refuse even to acknowledge that HH exist.
Again, where and when did I say that Hip Hop doesn't exist?
ABM wrote:
In such situations, the mature thing to do is to either try to restate/clarify your position to others
How mature, or sane for that matter, is it for you too keep telling me what I think based on what I haven't written? But that's it, ABM, you are restating things that I haven't even written and instead of asking, what do you mean, you come back with so are you saying [whatever] and even when I reponse with no, I didn't, you still insist that's what I am saying. You're moved from arrogance to ignorance. There is no other way to explain this behavior and method of communication.
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 11:48 am: |
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Yukio,
I think you have made a clear and thorough depiction of where/how HH lit may/not sell. There’s one glitch that I foresee with much of what you have said: It primarily describes the people of TODAY, but not necessarily those of TOMORROW.
See, there has been a sea change to the American zeitgeist over the last 15 years. And HH has been at the forefront of that Cultural Revolution.
Many of the novel readers of +5-10 years from now may be very different from you/me. Yes, most +40-year-old Black/White women of today wouldn’t even THINK about picking up a book that even remotely discusses HH. But their daughters/nieces who grew up digging Tupac, reading his poems/biographies, watching him on (the ubiquitous) MTV/VH1/BET interviews/documentaries, etc. might continue to read about him and other HH’ers - Black/White/Others - as they reach middle-age.
Recently, the Billboard Magazine’s Top 15 recordings were ALL Hip Hop-related songs. Black music has never been so wholly acknowledged, not even during the very height of Jazz, Blues or R&B.
And if you look at the popular white performers like Britany Spears, Justin Timberlake, Eminem, etc. you will often find Blacks managing/producing/handling them.
While telling her life’s story on Oprah, Hip Hop soulster Mary J. Blige (who seems to have gloriously blossomed like a new sun) elicits tearful empathy from White women.
Venerable gangsta rapper Ice Cube is producing, writing and staring in +$100M box office movies, while still making platinum-selling thug-style music.
Sage rapper Mos Def has become a renowned and award-winning theater actor.
And HH’s ascendancy is causing even rich/famous White foks to act goofy.
I recall reading a few years back that white movie star Kevin Costner was asked why he was attending a the 30th birthday party for (then) ‘Puffy’ Combs, someone he had not even met before. Costner only 1/2 jokingly replied (to paraphrase): "I was looking to ‘move up’ the caliber of circles I travel in."
Then there’s White female movie star Nicole Kidman’s recent canoodling with Black rapper Q-Tip of the former Tribe Called Quest (And now she’s toe-tickling Black rocker Lenny Kravitz: Looks like after divorcing the pedestrian White movie star Tom Cruise, "Darlin’ Nicky" dun caught the "'fevah' for the flavor" of a brothah.)
I even recently read a humorous story about White/Hispanic singer Christina Aguilera and White Jade (model daughter of the Rollin’ Stones ‘Sir’ Mick Jagger) having a very public knock-down/drag-out catfight to garner the preference of Black musical impresario/singer Pharrell (of the splendid Neptunes HH production duo).
But here’s my favorite: HH 'god' Snoop Dogg (former LA gangbanger, former dealer and proud consumer of illegal narcotics and former murder indictee) is in his inimitable California-Country style is hockin’ European houseware/furniture juggernaut IKEA for Christ Sake!
HH has affected the American and World culture in ways that I don’t think that many of us can or want to fully appreciate. Yes, it is difficult to predict how/why HH will more fully filter down into literature. But with all the OTHER changes the Hip Hop culture has engendered, logic dictates that eventually Hip Hop will profoundly affect what many of us (and our kids) write/read as well. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 11:57 am: |
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Has anybody ever considered the reason hip hop endures is because the candence of Rap is an insidious entity that has a subliminal effect on the psyche and brainwashes it with its message. People are fascinated by the sights and sounds of the hip hop lifestyle because in one area it stimulates by going counter to the prevailing culture, and on the other hand it seduces with the pulse of its primitive appeal. Hip Hop is a state of mind which is very easy to embrace because it requires no discipline. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 01:08 pm: |
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JTF,
I have read subject matter written by and about Tupac and find much of it, by my layman’s definition, to be quite literary. Tupac’s poetic talents have yet to be even remotely recognized, although if you consider 4 - 6 albums featuring Tupac writing have been posthumously released, you’ve gottah know that brothah had serious skills with a pen.
And Dr. Michael Eric Dyson’s Tupac opus "Holla If You Hear Me" is as profound a biography about a Black man as you will find written in recent years.
Now. Why are you belaboring the faux definition issue, anyway?
Heck! Science hasn’t even provided a "concrete definition" of what it means to be ‘ALIVE’ (Yet we all assume that are ‘living’, don’t we?), much less that of what constitutes literature, acting, dancing, singing, etc. So it should not be of any material surprise to you that defining HH may prove somewhat elusive. And again, it is because the genre has changed so much over the years that obfuscate classification.
I, however, accept the definitions proffered by Troy and others as I find them to be consistent with my own. So, I don’t know ‘bout you, but that is all I require for the purposes of this discussion. But I suppose if you refuse to understand or accept what has already been tendered by Troy, myself and others, we probably will not be able to have a productive conversation.
You know, you remind me that ‘girl’ in Church who will invite you run your hand up her dress then when the wary Church ‘ushsah’ glances by the ‘girl’ blares out, "Quit it, boy! Sistah Johnson! He’s been feelin’ on me!"
I agree that you don’t have to ‘like’, ‘love’ or ‘hate’ Hip Hop to express an intelligible opinion. But if you don’t do any of that and can’t (or won’t) offer or accept what are being offered as definitions/opinions of the genre, then what ARE you saying?
Ok. Why don’t you stop playing this immature "I know you are but what am I?" game and simply and clearly state YOUR own opinions about what is/not HH to? That way, maybe we can progress beyond the point of error/innuendo and educate each other (I am game. Are you?). Otherwise, I really have to wonder what benefit at all there is to continuing to respond to you.
My ‘arrogance’ is a given (Though I have found that people are often label as such when they have gotten the better of their adversary.). But My Dear Friend, my level of ‘ignorance’ is FAR beyond YOUR ability to fathom.
BTW: I see a counselor about 1 - 2 times per month. But lemme tell ya, after all the "head-shrinking", I don’t even have any room left to hold up my ears. |
Na'ith
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 06, 2004 - 06:21 pm: |
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I think hip-hop fiction does and will continue to sell. According to Triple Crown Publications, it sold 100,000 books in 2003. TCP is the only
publisher that I know of that deals primarily with hip-hop fiction. Simon & Schuster, which reprinted Ptah's book, is signing a lot of hip-hop fiction writers. I think the publisher hopes
it will find the niche of success as it did by
acquiring Zane's material. As someone who was around when the critics said hip-hop wouldn't last as an art form, I think hip-hop literature, whether it is fiction or nonfiction, will continue to grow. In addition, I believe that there is an uptapped market in translating hip-hop literature into foriegn languages (hip-hop is popular in some foreign counties). |
JustTheFacts
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:43 pm: |
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Yukio, I forgot to say that I appreciated your response and comments. I also agree with most of them.
Na'ith, would you names some titles of the hip hop fiction? |
Book Father
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 10:46 pm: |
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Book Father (Formerly known as JustTheTruth)
Hip hop sucks as it is.
Can't imagine the books.
My dime.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 05:14 pm: |
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ABM: I appreciate your reply, but i'm not sure if you got my point. I know, i know,...it was quite long. Let me try it again briefly:
What you describes is really the NOW as well as what is to come. You basically illustrated that white folk are now participating in hip hop and that these folk would want to read about it....this may be a simple characterization, but if that is the case, i'm sorry.
Well, my point is that, listeners of hip hop, present or future, do not necessarily transmit to readers of fiction, although they may read an autobiography or biography, etc.....
Futhermore, i argued that white folk have always loved our music, but not necessarily our fiction. So that all that you mentioned doesn't translate to fiction....in other words....are the readers and listeners(consumers) of hip hop necessarily the same? I say, Yes....that these folk are mostly black women. |
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