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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:45 pm: | 
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Hello All,
I still, initially, judge a book by its cover. If the book cover is good looking, I'm more apt to read it. If the cover is ugly, I won't give it a moment of thought. I bring this up because I almost did not read The High Price of a Good Man by Debra Phillips because of its cover. On the cover is a flat stomach, slender hip woman in blue jeans. I thought it was another one of those slim, designer clothes wearing sista-girlfriend books, so it sat on my desk for months...untouched. I wasn't in the moood. But, how wrong I was, when the main character, Queenie is a 6 feet tall, size 16 dressing wearing woman. The cover and the main character are at odds. This is not a slam against the author, for most authors have no say in what the covers of their books looks like. So its not her fault.
I only bring this up because, whenever we get books that goes against the grain of what is constantly being pushed down our throats, there's still deception. And the deception enforces some sort of negativity that is damaging to us. What's wrong with showing a full figure model on the cover of a book that features a full figure main character? If my memory is correct, we had this same discussion over Bernice McFadden's Sugar and This Bitter Earth, because Sugar's skin color was way darker than the models featured on the cover of the book. These covers again reinforce intra-racism, and that folks should be ashamed that they are not a size 2 or something. Isn't it about time that we start calling folks on this type of crap? |
Anita
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 11:17 pm: |
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Thumper, I agree! That is why I'm waiting for the release of "The Darkest Child" by Delores Phillips. I was pleased to see the dark beauty on the cover. Edwidge Danticat gave the book rave reviews. I keep going back to Soho Press for an excerpt since the book won't be released until January. I hope more covers look the same in the near future. |
cmack
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 10:56 am: |
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I agree as well!!!! I am not a size 4 with long flowing straight black hair, but in most books that's what we look like. I would like to purchase more books that the cover matches the storyline. I am also looking forward to "The Darkest Child" because I thought the cover was intriguing. I bought "5th Born" by Zelda Lockhart because the cover looked interesting. It was a good read. Hopefully more authors will demand that the cover matches the story. Peace |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 05:23 pm: |
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You can't tell if a book is good from its cover, but often you can tell if a book is amatuerish and bad. When I see those third-rate cartoon covers, or the ones stylistically reminiscent of the air brush t-shirts they sell at Atlantic City, I think "Crap!" Although I am, of course, a snob.
Zane and James Earl Hardy (earlier covers) seem to have built fortunes with covers that seem to scream "Illiterates Welcome."
I was so against the pigeon holing of black books by their cover that on my first one I made mine racially nuetral. It backfired, nobody who's interested in books by black authors knew about it. Now I'm struggling to have covers that say more about the work, without being crass and over the top.
When I see Carl Weber's covers though, I get the impression he's a man who chews fried chicken with his mouth open. But that's just me. Snob. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 08:06 pm: |
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The cover of my self-published book was unanimously panned because it was so plain and Spartan. Nobody got its subliminal message. Oh well. We live and learn. LOL |
Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 11:58 pm: |
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I do think book covers should say something about the book. As for the person who made a comment about my covers, to each his own. Not only do people love my covers, they often beg me for t-shirts with the images on them. As for myself, I am a far cry from illiterate, having written seven bestsellers in three years, as well as owning my own publishing company with a distribution deal with Simon and Schuster, and having more than two dozen authors signed to my house. I was just cruising the board since I am taking a break from writing on a deadline. I just had to comment. By the way, InPrint, what is the name of your book? I am just wondering if I have heard of it. As for Carl, he is making serious waves in the publishing industry as well; whether he is doing it with a chicken wing in his mouth or not. :-)
Peace,
Zane |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:27 am: |
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Zane:
I think ya covers are hotttttttttt! |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:27 am: |
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Zane herself! And things get interesting!
Thanks for responding, you've made my day. Actually I was thinking less of your standard covers, and more of one special one I see everywhere. I was thinking in particular of Blackgentleman.com, which is a "Zane presents" book but as your name is at the top of the masthead, I'm assuming the buck stops with you, and also of James Earl Hardy's earlier illustrated covers, before they started looking like Obsession ads. The style of these covers (and there contemporaries) are a clear break from recent fiction formats, instead referencing comic book style. Comic book style is nonthreatening to people that don't usually read, giving the message of very light, very accessable junk food story. Hence, "Illiterates Welcome."
I think another interesting point you bring up is a defense of the merit of your work, and Weber's, based on how many books have been sold. Certainly, this has something to it, as there are countless people trying to cash in with commercial fiction, and only a few succeed. And with in this category, it's safe to say you're number one at the moment. But I think it would be delusional to get carried away with this point. McDonalds sells a lot of Happy Meals, but that doesn't make it gourmet food. And it sure as hell doesn't make it healthy.
Writing for the masses doesn't often begat art of worth. In fact, it's usually the opposite. As Plato writes:
"However a man associates with the crowd- whether to exhibit poetry or any other art, or to offer political service, he will be going out of his way to make the public his masters, and the proverbial neccessity of Diomedes will compel him to produce whatever things the crowd likes. But that these things are in fact good or noble- have you ever heard anyone make such an argument without at the same time making himself ridiculous?" Republic 493d
I haven't read your work (although I once had a co-worker who liked to stop by and read the juicy bits). I have read Weber's Baby Mama Drama, on a dare. It was one of the most leaden, clunky, amatuerish things I've pushed through. As a professor of literature, critically praised author, and lifelong reader, I feel confident in my diagnosis. Again, I should remind that I'm a lit snob, and only like books without formula or pedestrian prose.
I don't put my name on this board because I like to enjoy it as a civilian, but if you'd like more info I'd be happy to email it too you. Feel free to share it with Carl. I'm not trying to be personal, I'm just passionate about this stuff. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:43 am: |
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InPrint and Zane:
Ol' dialogue....
I think, although i haven't been asked, that its good for folks to read, regardless of their educational background or literary preferences. I would assume that any type of reading would stimulate the mind and that is a good thing, NO? |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:47 am: |
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Yukio
I think the idea of reading in itself being stimulating is often overstated. Books are just tools for communication, like phones. If two fools are talking to each other on the phone, are they learning anything?
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:56 am: |
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InPrint, you are my new hero. Write on! |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 04:13 pm: |
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InPrint:
Part of the conflict that has emerged here, is the typical fissure between the "literary" and "commercial" writers. This is a perpetual dialogue....
Anyways, in response to my post you're addressed learning, and this is a very difficult topic to address. I will say this, many folk have learned from fools....because we all can learn from most and any human experience.
Your analogy is a bit overstated:
If we are to suppose that books are tools to communicate, then we should also suppose that there are different tools/books to communicate different information/knowledge(ie text books, literaure, training manuals,etc...). If this is the case, then a phone should also tranmit different types of communication if we are going to accept your analogy, NO?
As far as i know, i'm not an expert on anything, there aren't any phones made to tranmit particular types/kinds of informatinon/knowledge, unless you work for NASA or something like that....
Learning and stimulation are not synonyms. In addition, there are a variety of reasons to read.....Your analogy suggests that the primary purpose to read is to learn, so the question(s) becomes, Is the purpose of reading to learn? Yes, no, maybe so...lmao! Or, is learning just one of many reasons to read?
BTW, if one fool is more foolish, then there is still the possibility to learn, NO?
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 06:01 pm: |
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Question: Does an admitted "literary snob" have to defend his philosophy in regard to being a discriminate reader?????? |
Trey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 06:07 pm: |
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I liked Zane's early book cover with the 3 dark gorgeous girls standing there in negligee's.
I had never seen those type of beauties on a book cover before. My wife and I commented on how it caught our eye, because it seemed so odd that they were being shown as sexually desirable.
I think another famous author posted on here (during a chat with Zane) that she and her hsuband conceived a baby due to Zane's books. Apparently, there is a lot of worth to this woman's books, and IN PRINT being a snob anyway, maybe he could LEARN some sex tips from Zane.
As Yukio said there is alays something to be learned.
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InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 07:45 pm: |
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Yukio-
Yes, the perpetual dialogue. We've done this here again and again. I think part of the problem is that, unlike the mainstream, in black fiction everything from Michael Baisden to John Edgar Wideman gets thrown in the same pigeon hole. And it just doesn't fit.
In regards to my analogy, I'll simplify my intention: books (fiction and standard non-fiction) deliver words. Phones deliver words. My point was that I think we have an odd reverence for words just because they're written down.
You can be stimulated by pulp books, it's just that in comparison with great works, their benefits are negligable. There is usually isn't stimulation worth the effort of the read. Have you never put down a book and thought, "That was a waste of time"?
I'm weary from folks defensively overvalueing every black artistic expression, no matter how thin its content or quality. Every time we hold up a turd and hail it as a truimph, we not only look silly, we disrespect those artist who actually have sacrificed for greatness, devalue those works that have acheived it.
Sadly, I don't think most readers know what good writing is. They can't recognize cliche, their ears are deaf to prose, and they know too little about the art to ask much of it. They just want some fluff to read on their lunch hour. Understandable.
While "Gettin' Buck Wild: Sex Chronocles II" is probably a masterpiece of transcendant poetics, an erotic tour-de-force that would change my sensual identity forever, for now I think I'll stick with Anais Nin to get my juices flowing. No offense to Zane, if your still listening.
Trey:
My cousin got knocked up because her husband came back drunk and horny from a strip club last April. Does that mean there's "a lot of worth" in the Jagermeister Night at the Spearmint Rhino too?
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Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 09:04 pm: |
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Hello All
Now this has become a very interesting thread with a few big hitters stepping up to the plate.
InPrint, I respect your desire to stay anonymous on the board, in fact I applaud you. Over the years during our monthly book chats the conversations/discussions become decidedly different when the author is present. That's understandable however their presence takes something away from the natural flow, it has a tendency to make individual hedge on their true feelings. Also some people drop their names or titles in an attempt to receive instant credibility regardless of the issue at hand. "I am Dr so-and-so"......SO. It's an instant turn-off to me when I here someone try to validate their argument by mentioning their level of education or their job title instead of strengthening their position with facts.
Anyway Mr. InPrint (there I go, calling you Mr. *smile*). Anyway InPrint, I have to ask you a couple of questions. You mentioned that you used a racially neutral book cover, what exactly is that. Also, IMO there's nothing wrong with being a snob as long as you know that and stand on it, as you have done. So do you mind commenting on the issue Yukio brought to the board referencing your statements concerning reasons to read. I thought Yukio did a fine job of outlining the issue. Last week I read many of your posts and gave you props so I wait with great interest for your reply.
By the way, how do you know if a book is amatuerish and bad by the cover. Think about it, if you change the cover what happens to the book?
Hello Zane, Thanks for stepping in!!!
Carey |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 09:13 pm: |
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This might be off-topic, but I don't like literary snobbery. I think each individual should be able to read whatever books by whoever and not be belittled for it. Everyone has different standards, and I think that even if you read the most heaviest of literature, there will still be some people who look down on 'you' because they think your choices are beneath 'them'. And so it goes on and on.
If people like Carl Weber and Zane have found their niche through writing whatever they enjoy writing, why the hell should anyone else care. It usually boils down to envy, in my opinion, so as a writer you cannot please everybody to fit their standards, so write what you want to write and forget the rest. What else can you do? I think also, people write books and those books go out into the world, but it doesn't mean the whole world is going to like what you do. Most writers get that and keep on steppin'. |
Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 09:15 pm: |
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InPrint,
Actually, I think your hateration is hilarious. Keep it coming because it gives me a break when I sign on from writing to browse the boards. I was at a mall earlier today and no sooner had I gotten out of my car when two women were discussing my books. One of them called me too nasty. The other said she loves my books. I thought their conversation was hilarious also. Nothing and no one will ever affect the way I write because I write for me. Thank goodness we live in a world where people can read whatever they want and do whatever they feel. As for you emailing me your information, no thanks. While I am well-known for showing up at book festivals and literary events and purchasing a book from every single author present, whether I intend to read the book or not, I do not openly support authors who spend time trying to portray other authors in a negative light like you did with Carl Weber in an earlier post. Call it what you want but people like my writing. One bestseller may have been a fluke or a mistake. Two might have been luck. Nervous debuted at number 30 on the NY Times list midweek on the day of official release and my editor just informed me that it has already made number one in Essence for the next issue going to press. No, sales don't always mean great writing but great writing is a matter of opinion. I know that better than most since I am also the Acquisitions Editor for Strebor Books. I received five manuscripts just yesterday after rejecting about forty submissions last week. Some people that I have rejected in the past have gone on to self-publish or get deals with other houses. That's fantastic and I am happy for them. They were just not the right fit for Strebor. In my opinion, D.V. Bernard (one of my authors and the author of The Last Dream Before Dawn) can write better than 99.9% of the people on the planet. He will probably not get the recognition he deserves but he will forever be my favorite writer of all-time.
Anyway, I have to get back to writing. I look forward to your next hilarious post. One suggestion. If you are so flustered with the type of books hitting the scene, why not stop talking the talk and start walking the walk. I could easily just write my three books a year and walk away with millions but I feel like I have a deeper purpose in life. That is why I publish other people and that is what I was referring to when I said Carl was making waves in the industry. From owning bookstores to publishing other people, at least he is not just sitting on his behind talking trash about others.
It does not surprise me that you have not read one of my books but want to comment on my writing. That is usually the case and speaks volumes. I actually write in several different genres. The book that my agent initially signed me based upon (which happens to be a literary novel) has yet to be released and will not be released under Zane. I read a chapter to my husband and he had no idea that I had written it because the writing style is so different.
The bottom line is that the day I start writing to impress anyone other than myself will be the day I need to give it up. Terry McMillan said it best in "Chicken Soup for the Writer's Soul." She said, "I didn't make a conscious decision to become a writer. I never did it for the money. I never did it for the fame. Who knew? Who ever knows? I think somehow that the craft chose me. The words have given me ownership and a sense of security. Writing is the only place I can be myself and not feel judged. And I like it there." All I can say to that is "Amen!"
Lastly, I want to end this post with a story. I had two booksignings this past weekend. At both, there were more than 100 people in line when I arrived. I guess they were all dummies who had nothing better to do, huh InPrint? Anyway, one woman had come from Baltimore to the DC area with her much younger boyfriend to get her books signed. He was more excited than her and said they met because they were discussing my books. She stood there and told me how I had liberated her sexually. Some of the other women standing around agreed. When he went to purchase more books, she knelt down beside me to whisper, "I don't mean to take up too much of your time but I just have to tell you. An African American woman writing erotica. Do you realize what you have done? I'm wearing his young ass out. For years, I was fearful of opening myself up but thanks to you, there is nothing I won't do for him."
Now comments like those and the thousands of emails from readers that I get every single week that say basically the same thing make me happy. If people have hangups or want to insult me, have fun. My favorite saying at the moment is "It is what it is!" "Shame on it all!" used to be my favorite and I wrote a book with that title. Well, InPrint, it is what it is, like it or not.
Peace,
Zane |
Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 09:30 pm: |
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NeeCee,
Thank you for your post and for keeping it real. I could not have said it any better myself. I knew from day one that a lot of people would not like my writing and never cared. Contrary to the myth about self-published writers, I did not have to self-publish. I chose to self-publish. A lot of published authors encouraged me to write something else. Numerous publishing houses offered me a deal but wanted to tame me down and I refused. Ironically, now many of those same authors are participating in erotica anthologies or labeling their next book erotic. Funny how times change. I love all kinds of books. Variety makes life interesting. You will never catch me trying to make another author look bad. The time and effort it takes to write a book is deserving of rewards in itself. I am just so elated to see so many books out with AA characters. When I was a child, there was a serious lack of them and I was reading a book a day by the time I was in the third grade. None of the people looked or talked like me though. Now I can read about characters who do. I love reading more than I love writing and read an average of eight books a week. I select the books I read and I purchase them so no one can dictate my actions. I read for various reasons. I am not a television buff and reading is a habit that was drilled into me as a child. I read to learn. I read to be entertained. I read to escape reality for a while. I read because it gives me a greater appreciation of life. Often times, I am more excited when the books hit the shelves that I publish than when my own books come out. In fact, I have yet to celebrate the release of one of my books and probably never will.
Anyway, thanks for the post. It was on point.
Peace,
Zane |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 09:37 pm: |
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Zane!
Yayyy! Bravo! Cheers!! You go, girl! There's not much more I can say!!
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NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 09:41 pm: |
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Oops, one more thing re: Zane.
Trailblazers always take heat. They just do. But once they make it, they'll have tons of imitators. We already know that.
I think the initial criticisms and hardships those individuals experience in trying to make it, do their thing, stand out, and be different, is just indicative that they're going to be a success. Their legacy is thus created and expanded.
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JMO
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:52 pm: |
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For someone who could care less what others think of what they do, they sure have a lot to say about it. Then to insult one that they claimed insulted them really shows how much one does care. |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 11:34 pm: |
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Zane-
Thanks for the passionate, indepth post. I am enjoying myself. I stand by my impression of Weber's work though, and will not be going back on with his. If you'll look, you'll see I never said anything directly about your writing because I don't know it, only your cover, which I didn't care for, and commercial fiction as a whole. After such a lovely response, I think I just might have to go read one of your books.
As for sending my info to you, know that it was an act of respect and in no way an effort for "support." As NeeCee said, at times it gets like an ongoing commercial around here when writers show up to plug their work and projects.
It is a great thing to get so much out of ones work. Probably the only reason worth doing it. I'm glad you've touched people, that you get that out of it. I'm also glad to hear you describe your success in those terms, as opposed to how much money or books you've sold or power moves you're making, as so many pop writers do. I guess it's because most are entreprenuers first.
I actually do walk the walk on this thing, sitting on a couple boards, judging contests, donating teaching, mentoring, etc. It is important to advance ones causes, and my cause is good writing.
And I will continue to tell bad writers they suck. I will do it loudly, to their faces if they're present, and if they don't like it they can just go and get better. I will do it at the Harlem Book Fair, I will do it at BEA, I will do it in the media, as I have done. I do feel it not just a right, but a duty to be a critical voice on the state of African American literature. I'm a self-righteous prick.
There is a conspiracy of mediocrity in our artistic community. So much dreadful work is produced to obligatory praise and a vacuum of critical thought. Making fun of Weber's eating habits is obviously silly, but the point is I find his work to be careless and crass. If he devoted more time to his art and improved, I'd be happy to blurb him. This is not about being destructive, it's about being constructive. If we, as a people, don't start being critical of ourselves, what hope do we have to improve? I know so many bad black authors who could have done something special if someone had said to them "This isn't good enough."
For example: Not trying to dismiss your craft, but 3 books a year?? That sounds more like typing than writing. Isn't there part of you that would rather take time with one book, over a couple years? Rewrite it until every sentence is perfect poetry, every scene and character completely flushed out? Wouldn't that same book, given time, be that much better? Maybe you do this, I don't know. See, what I honestly don't understand is whether folks that write books extremely quickly do it because they say, "this is good enough to get published" or because they really believe "this is the absolute best it can be"? My goal is to get more writers to answer the later question before releasing.
NeeCee-
It matters to me when commercial writing gets held up as something more that the enjoyable popcorn it is. When Omar Tyree one NAACP literary award it broke my heart. It's because I care about my people. When mediocrity is passed off greatness it belittles us, it disgraces us. It says, this disposble thing is the best we can do. It is a violent attack on our collective soul.
You're right about offering credentials, it's cheap. I meant it to say that my life is devoted to this stuff, and that I'm not a casual reader.
There should be room for commercial fiction. It's fun, it's quick, it demands little of us. I think the problem arises when it becomes overvalued and omnipresent as it has in the last few years.
"Player-hating" has become the all dismissive defense of the powerful in our community. This is not that simple, or easy. It's a struggle for minds and self-definition.
EVERYONE (Thump I know you're out there)::::::::::::::::::::
Yes, it is a humbling thing to be a literary writer in an era that doesn't want to know they exist. I take solice in this. Ever read a book by Oscar Micheaux? No you haven't, and if you've even heard of him it's because he made movies as well. Well, Micheaux was the leading black popular writer of his period, the 1910's and 20's. He was an innovative marketer, going door to door selling his novels, a figure very much like Tyree or Baisden or Weber is today. His books were everywhere, bestsellers of their era. While writers like Charles Chestnutt struggled in obscurity, Micheaux had packed readings and swooning, adoring fans. The thing is, Micheaux's books sucked just as bad as his modern equivalents, and Chestnutt's books were brilliant, so a hundred years later Micheaux is largely forgotten and Chestnutt is still being taught and reprinted today.
Pop, in all its forms, is of the voice of the moment. There lies its strength, and their lies its mortal weakness. There have always been black commercial writers. The fact that you haven't heard of most of them is because no matter how big, they all faded away. Only true art lasts beyond its context.
It's long race. Bet on the turtle. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 11:52 pm: |
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Trivia Time. In answer to my question. Yes, a literary snob does have to defend why they are one. And such a defense. I didn't know what I was getting into when I said "Write On."
Zane - Jeeze. Shades of Kola Boof! |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 12:04 am: |
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Ah Cynique, not a KB reference! That's like saying Candyman three times in front of the mirror!
Thanks for the earlier back-getting, where are all the other lit heads of our disfunctional family?
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Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 12:08 am: |
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JMO, you are absolutely right. I don't care so this is my last post.
You all have fun.
Peace,
Zane |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 12:18 am: |
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I WON! I WON! I WON! YEAH!!!!!!!! YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I WON! VICTORY!!!!!!!!!!!
Ah, screw it. I'm tired, I'm going to bed too. Maybe tomorrow E. Lynn will visit and we can start all over again. |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 01:03 am: |
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I am going to post this anonymously, even though I generally post on this board and use my name. I have been following this thread and I think it is sad. InPrint, what exactly have you won? Do you think Zane will lose sleep over your comments? Do you think she will lose book sales? She is probably laughing at you right now. Your last post is immature and personally, I have lost all the previous respect I had for you. In fact, if authors are not free to come on here and talk openly about their work and why they do what they do, I have no interest in these boards at all. InPrint, you think you are special. Who led you to believe that, I have no idea. What makes you such an expert on bad or good writing? You must lead a very meager existence if you have nothing better to do than insult people. This is truly sad. Now I am signing off to go read Nervous, Zane's latest book. I happen to be a huge fan. |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 02:12 am: |
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InPrint:
Omar Tyree's NAACP award is a reflection of the ones who picked his book to win, not Omar himself. He didn't put a gun to their head and make them give him that award. They selected him to win for whatever reason. If you're mad about the award, be mad at the NAACP.
And no matter who wins whatever award, guess what? Someone will always disagree with the choices made. What can ya do? Everyone has their opinions, right?
And I still do not like literary snobbery. Because, with all due respect, no matter how YOU feel about your writing, there is someone out there who will think it sucks. Period! It's true.
Yes, everyone should work on their craft, but there is no best writer in the world. None!!! And there never will be. |
Fool on the Hill
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 03:05 am: |
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Personally, I'm more of a Sheniska Jackson sort of reader. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 09:14 am: |
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Hello All,
InPrint: Why, I'm still here. *smile* I'm simply laying back and enjoying the view. *smile*
Everyone: We've had this discussion many times before, and we will probably have it again and again the value of literature versus pop fiction. As you all know, I like a little of everything. To say that my tastes are ecclectic is an understandment. I love lietarture. But there always comes a time when I need a break, I will reach for the pop fiction for an easier ride. The problem lies is in the fact that just because commercial fiction does not mean, let me say it again, DOES NOT MEAN that the book has to be sloppy! I have no problem in saying it. But, NeeCee the truth is is that most people who love the book that I find negative, take the negative comment as a personal insult against them. So, I'm not getting your "hate" for someone being a literary snob. Aren't there books that you don't like reading because of subject matter, the author's writing style, etc? *eyebrow raised* InPrint don't want to read the U-go-girl books, hey, I ain't too particular about them myself, still it's our right to do that. Just the same as its your right NOT to like the books that InPrint love to read. Different strokes for different folks.
Now, InPrint was on the money with the "dumbing down" on what we hail as a "good". For instance, Ashanti, Beyounce, et al is NOT in the same category as Aretha. And anyone that say otherwise is either tone deaf and/or just plain stupid!! Yeah, I said it and meant it. But watch who wins the Grammy award this year. Guess who will get played on the radio and who won't. So yes, folks that are played on the radio, back in my day, wouldn't have made it out of my church choir to lead a song. There is a lowering of the bar.
Now, to apply the same notion to books. It's not a literarutre versuse commercial fiction, but a good commercial fiction versus bad commercial fiction. Personally, Eric Jerome Dickey is one of my favorite and he's a better writer than Rosalyn McMillan. I just got a press release on L. A. Banks new novel which is set for a January 2004 release, the second installment to the Minion series. My thought is why?? That book was terrible! And here comes a second, when I just got the bad taste out of my mouth from the first one? *eyebrow raised* Geez-us B A Fence!! But, Gloria Mallet who have consistently put out good books can't get no play?? *eyebrow raised*
The good versus bad IS ALL SUBJECTIVE! There's no need in anyone's feeling getting hurt or becoming defensive because another person don't like what they like.
InPrint, as I've said before, time is the great seperator of the wheat from the chafe of what book will become a classic and what wonn't. Chesnutt is an excellent example.
Boy, this is a long post!
Now as far as Miss Zane's covers. I love 'em. I haven't read any of her books, but I love her covers. The one book I have of Zane is Heatseeker and i have two copies of that one. One copy is autographed. The other is still in its packaging. I love how she packaged the book. The Heatseeker cover is classy. I like classy book covers. I pesterd Victor LaVelle for a poster of his The Ecstatic book cover and got it framed and hanging on my office wall now as we speak. But, if the cover is ugly, I ain't got no time for the book. If the book with the ugly cover is a hardback, I might give it a read because I can to the book jacket off and toss it to the side. But for a paperback, there is no tossing. Every time I lay the book down and pick it up, I got to look at that ugly book cover. Who wants to go through that? So if an author is smart, he/she should always go with something relevant to the story and nice looking. |
bkwteam
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 10:15 am: |
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I have read through ALL of these messages and I am stunned! Yes, we all have authors/books/covers we like and don't like but do we have to ATTACK the authors? Whether I'm a Zane fan or not, I wouldn't feel right insulting her to the point where she has to try defending herself and to the point where she refuses to comment anymore on this thread. Everyone has his/her opinion but I think that InPrint went overboard. A friendly debate is one thing; an all out attack is another!
Whether I think some of the books that authors write are "good" or "bad", it's irrelevant if that person has a market that's being satisfied and if someone is buying it.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is, if you like an author, you'll buy his/her work. If you don't, you won't! To each his/her own... |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 11:41 am: |
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The book industry is a reflection of the times we live in. The mass reading audience is looking for a quick fix, instant gratification, an entertaining diversion. Anything that taxes the mind too much is passed up. Furthermore, we now have a generation of people coming into adulthood who never knew a time when there weren't tv remote controls, who wore shoes with velcro instead of shoe strings, who relied on digitial clocks to tell the time, who, because of computers, think that cursive writing is obsolete, who don't realize that songs sampled on rap records are hits from a few years back, who earnestly believe that anything that happened before they were born is not something they should be expected to know. This does not bode well for the future of literacy. Fortunately there are exceptions to the rule and they are the hope for maintaining high standards in the world of books. |
Crystal
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 01:28 pm: |
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Whew! Thumper, glad to know we can still be friends even though I don’t like reading you-know-who! LOL
Book covers don’t affect my decision to read a book. Just for the reason you stated in your original post – so often they don’t fit the actual writing. I can ignore them quite easily. I was cracking up at your “ugly cover” comments. The exception is if there are black folks on the cover – I’ll at least pick it up and give it a thumb through-look see.
Books are a big business and I don’t fault the publishers/writers for trying to grab attention and dollars with a cover.
I’m a little afraid of Zane’s books right now – being single and all - LOL!
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Yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 03:26 pm: |
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InPrint&Others:
Sorry posters! I don't have access to the net in the evenings anymore....so i guess i'm a lil late, but let me say a few things!
Let me try to make some clarifications regarding my points or inquiries:
I have not valorized either "literary" or "commericial" fiction. Perhaps, I was unclear.
My commentary and questions lent themselves to the point of the variety of tastes and qualities of literature, and the supposition that within the context of these mulitples possibilites, ie tastes and qualities, that there is usually the possibilitity and potential for stimulation, which is quite different from learning--hence the point that stimulation and learning are not synonyms. To simplifiy my intensions, as you would say, I was talking about preference, as others have more recently stated. I sought to find out if you could appreciate not just "great" literature, but the truism that we all have different tastes and the enjoyment is as legitimate as the next one.
I understood your analogy, but i appropriated it to illustrate redirect the discussion to tastes/preferences and to suggest that the communication is particularized by preferences/tastes.
I agree, for the most part, with your position regarding the homogenization of black literature, ie Baisden and Wideman as colleagues.
As a self-proclaimed snob, what you consider "great" is less about the greatness of the work and more about what other snobs, historically and traditionaly those of the affluent and upper classes as well as those who've received complementary educations, have deemed "Great". In other words, and at the end of the day, we return to preference, tastes, etc.....
So then I must ask you and others, What constitues snobbery? Is it tastes or is it the hierarchization of tastes? And the policing of tastes?
This relates to Cyniques question, because are these exchanges about snobbery or the green eyed monster or is it something else and/or a combination of these? This would/could help us answer Cyniques' question, NO?
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InPrint
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 06:10 pm: |
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Cynique-
Profound. Brilliant summary.
Thumper-
Ever the much appreciated voice of reason. You're right, it's really about two things:
1. The Dumbing Down of our culture, and American culture in general.
2. That work should be appreciated within its genre.
Yukio-
Reading past posts, I've grown to respect you (and Thumper) for the variety of work you've been able to take pleasure in, and your point about appreciating a book for what it is is noted, and conceeded. To a degree.
Being a lit snob: Personally, I don't care about the traditional criteria of defining greatness. Works I see as great are ones that bring substantially new interpretations of the world and the language. I get this from the best poetry and fiction. Transcendence.
I wish I could read some the commercial works, but after a few pages of skin-tone metaphors, brand name dropping, step-by-step action prose and strings of cliches, I get no enjoyment from it. Once you get used to spring water its extremely difficult to go back to the tap. People who drink only tap water can't tell the difference, claim angrily they taste the same. But they're just wrong.
Thanks guys. I'm typed out. Back to lurking.
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Thumper
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 06:31 pm: |
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Hello All,
I hate to go back, but I'm going to take us there.
bkwteam: Who was "ATTACK"ed? I don't know when, or how, we've gotten to the point where the slightest negative statement or post is an attack on the author. I didn't see InPrint as attacking Zane. He didn't call her out of her name, use any profanity to get his point across, or anything that I would say was disrespectful. And if he did, please point it out, because I ain't seein' it. Now Carey tried dropping the hint, but some of us didn't pick up what he put down. A writer, above all else, especially if he/she wants to public to read (note I didn't say appreciate, I said read) his works, has to have a THICK SKIN!! And if an author don't have thick skin, then his/her feelings is going to STAY in pain. Now, Zane may not have liked what InPrint said, but ultimately, what does she care. Her checking account is getting fatter by the day. Now, you may not have liked what he had to say, but hey, that's you. I'm sorry, but I ain't buying into this politically correct politeness thang. |
Yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 07:16 pm: |
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InPrint:
Typed Out?
I respect u 2!
Good answer and I agree with you're position. I rarely read "commercial" literature. Nevertheless, I just don't think there needs to be an either/or....
Good Evening! |
JMO
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 07:53 pm: |
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Rather interesting how posters come to the rescue of some writers who they feel have been insulted. He commented on only the writing, so I don't think InPrint personally attacked the writers in question, but then I also agreed with most of what was written. And, then of those same posters turned right around and personally attacked him. Tsk, tsk. tsk. Those who are quick to call others haters prove themselves to be just as hateful.
High sales never equate to good writing. As Thumper wrote, look at the R&B. CDs sold are not a reflection of talent, that's for sure. Millions of people like all that mumbling, moaning, cooing, and hollering, in the place of singing. Those "singers" will win awards, top the charts, and make gobbles of money. But they still can't sing.
Zane: You do care, otherwise there wouldn't have been such a response. And, your fans care too, hence their responses. And, I have read your work.
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yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 02:33 pm: |
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My 2 cents!
I think covers are about marketing the novel, attracting consumers to the product. I usually read interviews first, and since i primarily go for "literary" fiction, i tend read books by recommendation.
When i browse, if i see something interesting, i'll read the about the author, and the inside and back of the jacket. I usually go past the glossy colorful covers, because i suspect that it is commercial, and it is not my preference. I have read EJD, and find him entertaining, so every now and never, i'll borrow is literature from someone.
I'll even seek a review online, examine their education, etc...before i'll give up my money.
I've summarized my book purchasing method because i have a particular preference, and that is my right, but InPrint's commentary, although facetious i believe and meant to insulting any authors, so i agree with thumper, nevertheless SEEMED insulting to people who read "commercial" literature....and this also, i think and believe was done out of humor not malice. I really don't InPrint is interesting in belittling anyway, and his honesty is/was refreshing, but at the same time a person's intent and how they're interpretted is two different things. |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 01:13 am: |
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Book covers are only part of the package and usually the author has no say over them. I don't feel an author should be judged because of a cover because unless they are self-published, it is out of their control. Interesting topic but I don't think covers have a thing to do with the writing and some gems might be missed out on for a very shallow reason.
While it is true that sales don't always mean talent, Beyonce is not begging anyone to buy her music and Zane, E. Lynn, Dickey, Omar and the rest of them are not begging anyone to purchase their books. So people can be as critical as they want to be but obviously, someone is enjoying their work or they wouldn't be consistently selling.
For those who like more literary work, that's fine but some people enjoy lighter material. I happen to enjoy both and I am proud that I can read more than one type of book and appreciate it.
I read Dickey when I want to laugh, I read E. Lynn when I want drama and I read Zane when I want to read something completely different than anything else on the market. She definitely has a vivid imagination and she is entertaining. I just completed Nervous and it was amazing how she could take a woman who was half-virgin and half-whore and make it not only work but make it believable. I am glad to see her go back to the more serious format like Addicted and deal with issues that the black community usually tries to sweep underneath the rug.
I understand both Dickey and Zane have Christmas books coming out this year and I can't wait to read them both; no matter what the covers look like. |
Anonymous2
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 04:38 am: |
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Book covers either attract or repel a reader to pick up a book to read more about it. Obviously, it's a big deal or there wouldn't be as much effort, time, thought or money put into deciding what to put on the cover of a book. It's a part of the total package. And, sometimes you can judge a book by it's cover.
And, regarding this other matter, if readers are going to read an author book no matter the caliber of writing or the cover, then to me that is just as shallow of a reason to buy a book. To buy a book just because it's a book is the main reason why they are littering the bookshelves. As in movies, music, books and other art forms, sex / sex appeal has always been used to mask talent.
And, the storyline of people having addictions or mental illness didn't just pop up in books in the last 5 years. Just because you haven't read of such doesn't mean the issues haven't been written about. But, if you're reading the same authors and storylines over and over, either 6 to 12 months, then I can see how you one would think any of this is new ground covered.
Anonymous, you're right, no one is making people send their money on those who have no talent. That's their choice just as those who chose to not spend their money on them. People can invest their time and money as they think they get the greastest return on their investment.
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Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 09:20 pm: |
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You guy's have no idea-what a writer goes through in this industry. If you aren't published and actually have never sat down with the Editors and Publishers who profess to know the African-American market-when they have never spent any time at all, in our communites-then your acusations of covers, content and what's literary or not, is truely scewed if you ask me.
I have been in this industry for a good while with a very good track record of sales. But one thing you have to realize. When writers sign their contracts and hand over their manuscripts- the cover, even content (errors included) are in the hands of the editor who work on these books.
If you were truly in the know in the industry, instead of complaining about what authors do to their books. Let’s talk about what Publishers let Editors, do to the books. First of all, I have never seen a book in my life that was published by a major house say any where on the cover, "written and edited" by the same damn person. Nowadays, editors want books that they can package as quickly as possible and put on the shelves without the slightest hint of a headache. Then they move on. Yes, these editors the majority of them white-are the same readers who don't want to spend the time doing their job--which is to make the project the best book ever. I know writers in the industry who have never spoken to their editors about content. Except for a white editor calling to ask an author "What does sucking your teeth mean or would a black man really leave a one hundred dollar tip after a meal?"
That is the main reason you don't see books of a literary value on the shelves. The editors don't want to spend the time, talking to our black authors about our lives and what their prose really means to them. And the authors no it will be a waste of time to submit because it is not what the Editors want to publish.
Don't take your frustrations out on the authors about what they are creating. Writers have to eat and if you are truly a writer-what do you do? Put your pen and pad away and starve until the "Industry" decides it is time to switch gears and say it's literary time? Take a look at Toni Morrisons latest novel. Her novel is very, very, contemporary; even close to You Go Girl. Maybe we can learn from one of the "LITERARY GREATS" that this is way beyond the control of the author. The Industry is calling the shots, and you will create what we want you to or plain and simple. You won't get published. And I’m not saying Toni Morrison couldn’t get published doing what she does best, but in my estimation she sees her sales figures and realizes that the industry has pushed so many contemporary You Go Girl titles that she has to jump on board because even with her. It’s all about sales, believe that.
I applaud Zane and her publishing deal. She is a very important player in the publishing industry so "Imprint" maybe if you stop spending so much time on the boards (complaining about there's not enough of what you love-literary on the shelves) and sit down and write something very prolific yourself. Hey, you never know? Zane might pick you up.
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Another Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 12:22 am: |
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Hello Zane groupie:
No doubt about it, your post could've benefited from the services of an editor, and as illogical and inconsistent as the points you tried to make are, it's surprising you are able to make a living at writing. If what you complain about is so prevelant, then there would be no quality black books out there. But there are.
And just how does an author sit down and write a "prolific" book? |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 02:26 pm: |
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Another Anonymous-First of all, I didn't write my post for publication into any of the snobbish periodicals that you probably read. I wrote it for the board, full of passion and insight about something I know about, have experience with and live everyday.
Secondly, the points that I made are facts, just ask any published author who creates for the African American market. Like I said in my post, if you haven't been published then you don't know the first thing about the publishing process other than what you read on this discussion board or how-to magazines.
Also, I never said there were no quality black books out on the market. (You're just working your spin for debate purposes. You must be a republican and watch Fox News continuously?) I know there are quality black books. My point is, that Editors do not push books they receive from authors in meetings to their publishers that they feel are literary.(If you didn't know, not one book is published that the “Publisher” hasn't signed off on. Notice I said Publisher. Hopefully you know the difference and how their job descriptions differ in a publishing house. But I doubt it very seriously.) That's a fact and I will debate that forever. Just look at how many books that are published in the You Go Girl market vs. the literary market?
By the way, you should know how to write a "prolific" book-since you're such a big reader of literature and have this great insight on publishing. But then again, I think you like to blow smoke and expand problems instead of being part of a solution.
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Another Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 03:30 pm: |
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Anonymous:
Me a Republican? I don't think so. And how would you know I am such a big reader of literature? And since you think I have such great insight into the publishing industry, why are you "attempting" to explain the procedures to me? Oh yeah, contrary to what you might think, I am not InPrint.
Also, the point you continue to miss is that there are prolific authors, but no prolific books.
Finally: betcha it took you an hour to write that post. >> ha-ha << Bye! |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 05:59 pm: |
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Sorry but it only took a few minutes. But I'm glad that I was able to school you. By the way, correct me if I'm wrong but don't author's write prolific books? You need to get up to speed on these things. |
Anonymous2
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 07:51 pm: |
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Main Entry: pro·lif·ic
Pronunciation: pr&-'li-fik
Function: adjective
Etymology: French prolifique, from Latin proles
Date: 1650
1 : producing young or fruit especially freely : FRUITFUL
2 archaic : causing abundant growth, generation, or reproduction
3 : marked by abundant inventiveness or productivity <a >
synonym see FERTILE
- pro·lif·i·ca·cy /-'li-fi-k&-sE/ noun
- pro·lif·i·cal·ly /-fi-k(&-)lE/ adverb
- pro·lif·ic·ness /-fik-n&s/ noun |
Fool on the Hill
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 08:39 pm: |
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Anonymous,
Prolific means to produce something in great abundance so that means that a book can't be prolific, but an author can. Unless the book writes other books it can't be considered prolific. Authors do write profound books, perturbing works and sometimes stories of palpable dread, but a book, sorry can't be prolific. It is kind of funny to me, though, to see you so huffy about being wrong.
That said, I always, always misspell necessary so who am I to point fingers?
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Visitor
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 09:07 pm: |
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Fool-- If you have internet explorer install Merriam-Webster toolbar on line dictionary. |
Another Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 10:49 pm: |
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Anonymous writes:
...by the way, correct me if I'm wrong but don't author's write prolific books? You need to get up to speed on these things.
"Another Anonymous" responds:
In addition to your other missteps, you should have left the apostrophe out of author.
See ya later. 'Got papers to grade.
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InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 11:59 pm: |
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Back!
Anonymous-
Thank you kindly for your p/maternal advice on the workings of the publishing industry! Actually though, I am an established and mildly successful black author with a couple of books under my belt. But still, good looking out!
Actually, I found much of what you said about the workings of the industry to be the opposite of my experience, but I think that's probably because we're on different sides of the fence.
Although the effort of editors has certainly decreased across the board, I actually do get edited. The reason is that I write what most consider literary fiction, and the goal is to get strong periodical reviews and esteemed prizes which will bring accolades and money to the publishing house. We go back and forth, argue, try to come up with the best work before publication.
I also have cover approval. I have vetoed covers, repeatedly. It’s not formal, but they want to keep me happy so I won't leave.
The opposite happens for many commercial writers. They are looked at as revenue streams by their publishers, nothing more. Since countless black pop authors have proven they can put out inferior product and still have a hit, publishers of the material don't bother fixing these works up, they merely churn them out. These books don't get reviewed by the major media or considered for respected awards: they depend more on marketing than quality, specifically self-promotion. Because the publishers consider them a dime a dozen, they have less power on the covers and in general.
If you take your work seriously and you see your editor treating you this way, run from that house. The editing you described isn't even real editing, but copy editing.
All authors are in complete control of their work before they let other people see it. We are all in ultimate control of our work- you can always cancel publication and return the money.
Fool- Sheniska’s fine but I'm more of a Robert M. Finley fan myself. He's better than Ezra!
Visitor- m-w.com is the bomb. It pronounces the words!
Carey- It was a cover of a random inanimate object. I meant no human or ethnic signifier of any kind. Yeah, Yukio did say it right.
JMO- There's no way you're not a published writer. I was calling around to see if I knew you. You use sentences like ice picks.
Zane fans- You have shown me so much love, and pointed out various possibilities for self-improvement and reflection. The next time some one says to me that you’re all a bunch of semiliterate pervs, I will defend you with passion that would make Soror Ride Dick proud!
Yukio- Sadly, the recognition of sarcasm and satire in prose requires an eye for subtlety and nuance. Some groups lack that by definition.
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Yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 03:42 pm: |
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Hmmmmmm...
This has been an interesting thread, NO?
*I think the conflict has been that "commerical" literature's readership have been attacked. Why can't we have some tolerance among black folk? Just a lil...on both sides of the fence!
There are many reasons to read and we all have different and varied tastes. Lets not judge the reader by the cover.....
We've gone from the relationship between the book cover and the characters to the relationships among publishers, editors, writers, and their writing.
Thumper, what have you done? LMAO! No one, from what i recall, addressed thumper's comments about how book covers often contradict representations of the main characters in the novel. This is important, no?, since we are bombarded with white and even black representations which narrow beauty!....Also, shouldn't the cover represent the story?
InPrint's response to Anonymous was enligtening; Anonymous'comments though substantiated by his his/her experiences were not generalizable to InPrint's experiences, which conspicuously illustrates that the book publishing industry is quite complex and literary and commerical literature serve different functions. Consequently, although money is the key, according to InPrint prestige also begets the cheddar. In other words, how the money is derived is necessarily different for the commericial and literary fiction.
Finally, Anonymous and the Anonymous 2, Another Anonymous, etc....exchanges about the word "prolific" and the aposthorophe was/is real comedy.
I must admit, after i've commented and eventually return to my own posts, i'm often saying, damn....subj. verb agreement....or damn, I should have written "there" instead of "their." sh_t! what was i trying to say? What can we do?
Anonymous Anonymous:
Are ya sharing ya editing skills fo us po folks?
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Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 04:30 pm: |
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I am a commerical writer and I have control over my cover designs, flap copy, press releases and everything else so it has absolutely nothing to do with some imaginary line between literary and commercial authors. It has to do with the particular author and the particular editor/publishing house. So there goes that theory. |
Anonymous2
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 07:06 pm: |
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Yukio:
The *"commercial" literature's readership* do their fair share of attacking, as well. They hide such contempt in statements such as: I read to be entertained; I am so glad there are a variety of books out there (there has always been a variety of books published); Look at how many books so and so has written in the past year (yeah, and their writing reflects that fact); So and so has been on all the bestseller lists; I read a variety of books (yeah, right); These other writers are just jealous.
They can give their opinion of books they don't like to read but when others make any commentary on the books they love then they start all that whining.
On the misuse of the word, prolific, yes it was funny especially coming from one who was really strengthening InPrint's assertion but didn't even realize it. We all make mistakes in posting whether spelling or typing is a weakness but Anonymous came on the board with such arrogance that it make his or her mistake stand out like a sore thumb. And, had the nerve to tell another, "you need to come up to speed on these things." ROFL I thought, no, you need to read more literary books. |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 11:41 pm: |
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I agree, "Anonymous 2". I don't think it's too much to expect a person who claims to be a professional author to write a coherent post, and to know the meaning of the words he or she uses. And you're right about readers of pop-lit; they are always on the defensive. |
Tee
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 03:06 am: |
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ROFL.... I see I've been missing out in my absence.
:::munching on popcorn:::
-Tee
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InPrint
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:14 am: |
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(Supposedly) Anonymous-
You're right, I overstated the point on the covers, or rather placed the statement within the text in a confusing way. Cover approvals have to do with pull and the respect a publisher gives their author, not genre.
I think part of the problem with the self-publishing boom is that it brought in a lot of people who really didn't have the skills, let alone talent, to be published. These authors found audiences because of their dogged promotion, and then found legitimacy when publishers stepped in to get a taste of the action.
The one place that the wave of commercial writers should be given true and sincere respect is in their ability to promote. This movement created an entire market. That's an awesome feat. Made even more impressive when you consider that the product, though definitely meeting a need, has often been substandard. In defense of lit writers, we seem to have a lower threshold for shame, but that takes little away from your efforts.
Failure is the essence of writing. Rejection is what fuels improvement, innovation, elevation. By detouring that essential element in their growth as writers, I think many who came the self-published route avoided any of the criticism that might have made them better. Later, contented and softened by success, they usually stop trying to improve. Chekov had the same problem, being published too early, making a habit of rushing stories to the press to put food on his table, but he pushed his art to become one of the greatest writers of the century. So there's hope.
Another problem I think is that many of these writers didn't come to it through an intense love and passion of the word. Instead, they followed a gold rush. They saw it as a way to get rich and a bit famous, to avoid the rat race. So, instead of having the benefit of an English degree (or any strong self-taught background that contained literary theory), they have degrees in Engineering and Marketing. They are simply not trained to do the job, and they don't know enough about the subject to even recognize their own ignorance. Forget covers, I can usually tell an amateur book from the first paragraph. The authors don't even know their flys are open, or understand why. Literature is a conversation, if you just jump in without having heard what came before, of course you will sound foolish.
Tip for Commercial Readers: When a book connoisseur challenges you about your reading habits, just tell them you have a stressful life and read just for escape and fun. That's probably true, and it's valid. The problem comes up when people try to overvalue their junk food.
Commercial Writers: Just admit you write to get paid, and to give people enjoyment (which Teri actual says) and the lit people will leave you alone. It's when you start trying convince people your Big Mac is steak that the Peter Luger folks get out the knives. And considering it's a war of words, you are at a distinct disadvantage.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:37 am: |
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Sooo true, In Print. There's nothing worse than a person who "knows not, and knows not that he knows not." |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 02:43 pm: |
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Anonymous 2:
The "commerical" literari have retaliated, but it wouldn't be necessary if they weren't attacked. Also, i think usually, and correct me if i'm off base, that they attack the book not the those who read the books. InPrint characterized ZANe readers as illiterate, though it was clearly, i believe and he as affirmed, fun not "hateration."
Let me say that i'm not defending anyone, just suggesting that there was some miscommunication and misinterepretations.
Which of InPrint's assertions was Anonymous strengenthening?
Again, Anonymous' and InPrint's exchange have been enligtening, at least for one hoping to publish one day!
InPrint:
"Tip for Commercial Readers: When a book connoisseur challenges you about your reading habits, just tell them you have a stressful life and read just for escape and fun. That's probably true, and it's valid. The problem comes up when people try to overvalue their junk food."
There is a dilemma i see in you last sentence and metaphor. There is a presumption that literature can be hierarchized, which like the metaphor junk food, i would suspect, suggests that there are some literature that is good for you and some that is bad for you, but who determines this, and if we're talking about commericial literature, as we could about junk food, How do we illustrate that this literature has harmed the reader?
Sorry if ya think i'm harassin you! I only ask, but i see think it needs to be asked, and i also confront the same dilemmas in my own reasoning, and finally, you still haven't directly address Carey's question, so here's are similar, though different, questions for you to feast on(sorry for the proposition...lmao!)
I think many commericial readers either don't know how to read "literary" fiction or just don't appreciate it, which leds us to tastes again.....i'm of course, responding beyond the context of the hierarchies we are taught in and out of formal educational institutiuons. |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 03:44 pm: |
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Yukio-
By the metaphor of "junk food" I mean less what is healthy and what is unhealthy (although many philosophers across the ages and cultures would make that aurgument), but what is complex and nuanced and filled with depth as opposed to what is fast and easy, but comparitively shallow. Thumper's music analogy is probably better.
Art is hierarchized. Some things are better than others. We live in a society where we love touting the equaliting of things, where judgement is often considered rude, elitist. But common sense tells us that some things are better than others, that even art is not entirely subjective.
Who gets to decide ultimately what works is of substance and what work is not? As far as consensus opinion, the critics. Experts who are familar not just with the art of the moment, but of the past, and of the larger theoretical dialogue behind it.
People freak out when you say that in regards to books, but we see this with movies all the time. Movies come out, they are widely touted or panned. There is always disagreement, but generally (or eventually) a consensus forms. And we accept the order of that. We don't say, "What the hell do all those people know?!" We just say, "I heard that movie sucks."
That's why criticsim is so important- it gives an expert opinion (by expert I mean someone with a wealth of knowledge on the subject) so that less informed readers can be informed, it recognizes acheivement, and it keeps artists honest.
And you're right, I did prod the commercial readers. I agree with Anon2 on them, those passive-aggressive affirmations of ignorance. I guess I just expect more out of people. And I did actually mean illiterate, but in the looser cultural sense of the word. From m-w.com:
2 a : showing or marked by a lack of familiarity with language and literature
I agree with Cynique that the Anon. writer did prove my point with his post. It seems fairly illiterate to me. We all make typing errors, but notice his reoccuring mistakes: his repeated use of vague fragment sentences, his misuse of the period when he needs a comma, the loose incoherent logic, the misuse of a common word and then the oblivious denial of that fact. I recognize these errors from when I taught community college English, they are common mistakes made by people not familiar with the written word. That they were made by a longtime published author shows the desperate nature of the situation.
I agree, many commercial writers don't know how to read or appreciate lit fiction, but it isn't just a matter of taste. Often, it is a matter of ignorance- they don't know what to look for. They can't appreciate the subtletes because they can't even see them. Just because they're blind to the nuances doesn't mean those nuances are not real. So while they do have something to say, they don't know what the hell they're talking about.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 04:29 pm: |
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InPrint:
Good answers, and I agree with what you say. Though, i would've packed less venom.
I think the issue is, Can we call this writing art? And most writers, if they are honest, can not say that they can. The fact of the matter is that, even among "literary" writers there is still a hierarchy.
And you're right, again. It is not only tastes, but ignorance.
BTW, i wouldn't go so far as to call Anon. illiterate, though ya'll've (i know i just made this up didn't i?) made a valid point about his writing. It seems it more passion than precise, though i can't see how he, several times even, failed to understand his misusage of "prolific."
Anonymous 2:
No need to respond to my question, InPrint has assisted us!
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 04:33 pm: |
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Damn, ya'll got me self-conscious....
Lets try this again: "And most writers, if they are honest, can not say that they can."
Should say:
"And most writers, if they are honest, can not say that they've produced art!" |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 11:43 pm: |
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I guess I am a nut because I agree with and am quite impressed by virtually everything that was posted here, even in spite of how contentious and contradictory so much of it appears to be.
My opinion about AA book covers and titles is they are often too obvious and simplistic. I wish that authors/publishers would be more respectful of AA readers to include more creative endeavor when packaging AA books to make them appear more sophisticated and "artistic".
And I can't settle the apparent disagreement regarding what kinds of books - popular/commercial or literary/scholarly - should be supported. Pop art and more serious, complex works both have their benefits and shortcomings. To be brief: Pop books is often simplistic/redundant, but they can encourage more people to read, which could eventually lead to more informed and provocative writing & reading. Literary books are often excessively verbose and elitist, but they can provide a reader with a truer/deeper perspective, provide a reader with the inclination and wherewithal to peer beyond the ordinary and mundane and inspire newfound thought and behavior.
The only thing that I can not countenance of any artist is redundancy. I don’t understand how a very talented/industrious person, some of whom earn millions of dollars and scores of accolades and enjoy access to vast literary resources, can continue to do the same ol’ thang, especially if you are educated, well-traveled and have a variety of associations, relationships and life experiences.
Whether you write comic books or literary epics, PLEASE bring something NEW and DIFFERENT to what you do.
There are SO MANY ways an author broaden and quicken his or her craft:
* Change from 1st person to 3rd person.
* Change personalities/consciousness’.
* Change from reality to dreams.
* Change vernacular/dialect.
* Try some poetry, songs, alliteration, assimile/metaphor, iambic pentameter…ANYTHING.
Writers, your 10th book should not be essentially the same as your 2nd. Otherwise, you are cheating your readers and yourself.
Honestly, I think a lot of authors (and their readers) would really benefit from removing themselves from the comfy, incestuous, self-congratulatory worlds of literature/publishing and hang out with political refugees, the homeless, NASA scientists, boarding/reform school masters/mistresses, orphanages, maids/butlers/drivers/cabbies, coal miners, garbage collectors and salvage companies and street hookers.
And a book’s sales volume is ONLY an indicator of how POPULAR a book is. Sales do not either prove or refute that a book has merit, as sometimes popular sentiment and great art can and do indeed coincide. I think Stevie Wonder and Toni Morrison are examples of great artists whose works have been lucrative.
This issue is really as much about quantity than quality. Presently, the zeitgeist is eschewed toward more simplistic, sensationalized, tabloid literary fare. I expect, though, that people’s taste could swing toward more sophisticated and challenging works...if for no other reason but because of SHEER BOREDOM.
I agree with Thumper that, ultimately, the only true barometer of whether something is great is whether it stands the test of time. And only the inhabitants of the future can fairly judge that, not those of use who live now. Because, although we may have been highly trained and educated to presume some criteria of excellence are appropriate, our smarter grandchildren might find our standards to be quite irrelevant and obsolete.
And Imprint, I could, in some sense, visualize that Zane’s books might later become viewed as great works of art that helped usher in some great sexual liberation of Black women that empowered womanhood in ways in which WE ALL might actually benefit. (And besides, Playah, anything that helps encourages chicks to freely serve up the “good stuff" has gotta be OKEY-FREAKIN’-DOKEY in MY book!!! >>>SCHEERRWWIIINNNGGG!!!<<<)
BTW: It is interesting how smart Black folks gleefully seek to intellectually ‘impale’ each other with almost casual impunity. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 08:20 pm: |
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ABM:
Nice comments. I don't know aboutt the smarter grandchildren comment. I think folk gain more knowledge, but they aren't necessarily smarter...anyways, no comment necessary, no argument, just my opinion.... |
Anonymous2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 09:52 pm: |
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InPrint, many years ago, when it was time to select books to read, the leader of our book club wouldn't even allow the members to nominate what he called fast food fiction. <smile> |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 02:55 pm: |
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Anon2:
Fast food sounds right! This "fast food" thing is a culture that we agressively consume...books, relationships, education, careers, happiness.... |
Justine
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 03:15 pm: |
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Hey guys,
I enjoyed reading all the posts about covers and especially enjoyed Zane's comments! I have read several of her books (wouldn't admit that to just *anybody* now) and I think the covers are terrific!
In fact, I just had to post about the book I'm reading now because the cover sold me on it. I heard about The Great Pretender from another online reading buddy and I looked it up over on Amazon. What a stricking cover it has!
Has anybody here happen to have read this on? It's by an author named Millenia Black and the book cover is really snappy. Check out the cover on her website: www.milleniablack.com
So far I'm up to chapter 10 and the cover was just the beginning!!
What's everyone else reading?
Best,
J. |
Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 07:43 pm: |
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Speaking of book covers. I just noticed that Tracy Price Thompson's upcoming "A Woman's Worth" and C. Kelly Robinson's upcoming "A Perfect Blend" have identical covers. I wonder if these authors know this -- does anyone have contact info for either of these authors? If they don't already know about this, I imagine they'd like to. |
Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 07:45 pm: |
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Actually, C Kelly Robinson's book was just released a couple of days ago -- no longer upcoming. |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 09:36 pm: |
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Kathleen, Tracy's new book cover is in the works. This was pointed out to her a few months back and she informed her publishing company.
My question is why the publishing companies don't buy rights managed (or whatever the option is for sole use of the image) stock images vs royalty free or even get someone to research and make sure a cover hasn't already been used. I guess it's too expensive to do this.
E. Lynn Harris has a book coming out that had the same cover of another AA title as well as Taste Like Chicken (from the pre-press materials I've seen). I'm sure it has been caught by now; at least I hope so.
-Tee |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 10, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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Tee,
E. Lynn's cover is now different. His publishing house got on that right away. |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 11, 2004 - 12:14 am: |
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If the authors would just put the book title and and their name on the cover then they wouldn't have this problem. May be a bit bland wouldn't have several covers being placed on more than one book. Besides you can't judge a book by it's cover anyway. |
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