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Justwrite
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Justwrite
Post Number: 100
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 12:51 pm: | 
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Subject: THEY SAY BLACKS DON'T READ
Please Note: For those of you, who heard it, this is the article Dee Lee was reading this morning on a New York radio station.
BLACKS DON'T READ. Written by a Caucasian fellow.
THEY ARE STILL OUR SLAVES! We can continue to reap profits from the Blacks without the effort of physical slavery. Look at the current methods of containment that they use on themselves: IGNORANCE, GREED, and SELFISHNESS. Their IGNORANCE is the primary weapon of containment. A great man once said, "The best way to hide something from Black people is to put it in a book." We now live in the Information Age. They have gained the opportunity to read any book on any subject through the efforts of their fight for freedom, yet they refuse to read. There are numerous books readily available at Borders, Barnes&Noble, and Amazon.com, not to mention their own Black Bookstores that provide solid blueprints to reach economic equality (which should have been their fight all along), but few read consistently, if at all.
GREED is another powerful weapon of containment. Blacks, since the abolition of slavery, have had large amounts of money at their disposal. Last year they spent 10 billion dollars during Christmas, out of their 450 billion dollars in total yearly income (2.22%). Any of us can use them as our target market, for any business venture we care to dream up, no matter how outlandish, they will buy into it. Being primarily a consumer people, they function totally by greed. They continually want more, with little thought for saving or investing.They would rather buy some new sneaker than invest in starting a business. Some even neglect their children to have the latest Tommy or FUBU, And they still think that having a Mercedes, and a big house gives them "Status" or that they have achieved the American Dream. They are fools! The vast majority of their people are still in poverty because their greed holds them back from collectively making better communities. With the help of BET, and the rest of their black media that often broadcasts destructive images into their own homes, we will continue to see huge profits like those of Tommy and Nike. (Tommy Hilfiger has even jeered them, saying he doesn't want their money, and look at how the fools spend more with him than ever before!). They'll continue to show off to each other while we build solid communities with the profits from our businesses that we market to them. SELFISHNESS, ingrained in their minds through slavery, is one of the major ways we can continue to contain them. One of their own, Dubois said that there was an innate division in their culture. A "Talented Tenth" he called it. He was correct in his deduction that there are segments of their culture that has achieved some "form" of success. However, that segment missed the fullness of his work. They didn't read that the "Talented Tenth" was then responsible to aid The Non-Talented Ninety Percent in achieving a better life. Instead, that segment has create! d another r class, a Buppie class that looks down on their people or aids them in a condescending manner. They will never achieve what we have. Their selfishness does not allow them to be able to work together on any project or endeavor of substance. When they do get together, their selfishness lets their egos get in the way of their goal. Their so-called help organizations seem to only want to promote their name without making any real change in their community. They are content to sit in conferences and conventions in our hotels, and talk about what they will do, while they award plaques to the best speakers, not the best doers. Is there no end to their selfishness? They steadfastly refuse to see that TOGETHER EACH ACHIEVES MORE (TEAM)! They do not understand that they are no better than each other of what they own fact, most of those Buppies are but one or two paychecks away from poverty. All of which is under the control of our pens in our offices and our rooms. Yes, we will continue to contain them as long as they refuse to read, continue to buy anything they want, and keep thinking they are "helping" their communities by paying dues to organizations which do little other than hold lavish conventions in our hotels. By the way, don't worry about any of them reading this letter, remember, 'THEY DON'T READ!!!! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 899
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 01:48 pm: |
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This is most DEFINITELY BS. BLACK aUTHORS are the hottest commodity right about now, to witness this, more big publishing houses than ever are giving black writers their own imprint, they wouldn't do this if they weren't making money, and to make money, they have to sell the books, and if the books are selling tell me WHO THE FREAK IS BUYING????? You AINT going to try to tell me that white people are buying up all of these books, are you????
PUHLEASE!! THAT BLACK FOLKS DON'T READ GARBAGE IS A BIG ASS LIE AND SOME of us keep promulgating this lie and spreading it around like it's gospel just cause a white person says its true
Please!!! Don't believe the hype!!! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 707
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 03:10 pm: |
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This comes up on this list about every three months--it seems that some Black people feel the need to jab themselves in the butt and cry the blues about this or something or other.
Somewhere back in the archives--you look for it-- there is a thread which discussed an article by Dana Goia, who is head of the NEA, in which it was stated that reading is going down for the entire population ie NOBODY is reading, not just black folks.
You have a President who prides himself on the fact that he can't remember the last time he read a book. He was white the last time I looked.
And we go to that consumer stuff. What are black people supposed to do? Sit around in sackcloth and ashes? They aren't supposed to get any enjoyment out of their money? They're supposed to pile it up and give it to somebody who is being held back because the rest of us won't give him our money. This is pitiful excuse making for personal failure.
This we-all ought to put our nickles and dimes together is some 19th century pennystock bullcrap--if you want to start a business you get a line of credit from a financial institution--not sit around ponying up money from individuals.
We have listened to that 300 billion dollar Negro myth so long we have begun to think we are just awash in money--after Black folks who have money pay their rent, housenotes, car notes, insurance, food, etc they ain't got two quarters to rub together.
If the person who made this statement was so red hot, they'd be doing a grand and we'd all be asking him/her how they did it. |
Michael_t_owens
Newbie Poster
Username: Michael_t_owens
Post Number: 9
Registered: 07-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 03:13 pm: |
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Wasn't this being passed around through emails like a year or two ago? I remember seeing this somewhere. |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 147
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 03:27 pm: |
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This piece is stupid.
The person who read it on the radio used poor judgement. I wonder why he chose to read it. By doing so he lent the author a level of credence that was undeserved. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 04:24 pm: |
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I agree with the prevailing sentiment expressed here.
The REAL story is NO ONE is reading enough, Black/White/other. And those few who are are hardly doing a damn thing beneficial with what they've read anyway. |
Solomonjones
Regular Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 48
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 05:27 pm: |
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About three years ago, Target Market News - a marketing firm out of Chicago that studies the buying patterns of black consumers - said that blacks spend about $350 million a year on books. With the proliferation of black imprints, authors and publishing houses, I can only assume that the number has grown since then. It's common knowledge in the publishing industry that black readers comprise the fastest growing market in the business.
I suspect this letter is just another urban legend. Knowing Dee Lee, I think he read it with the best intentions, but the information it contains is categorically false. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 902
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 06:15 pm: |
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SOLOMON JONES!!  Somehow I Knew you'd ride in here and set the record REAL STRAIGHT!!! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1580
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 07, 2004 - 11:25 pm: |
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Solomonjones,
$350M sound like a lot of dough. But since there are over 35M Black Americans, that equates to about $10 per Black person. And since the average book cost over $10, that means average Black American buying few than ONE book per annum.
Also, is that $350M more or less than what was spent in previous years?
Citing what appears to be a large number in absentia of trends and/or relationship to other relevant data does does not in of itself provide persuasive/authoritative information. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1583
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 12:00 am: |
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Kola_boof,
You may be correct when compared with 1978. I have no data to assert otherwise. Still, the numbers of Blacks who buy/read books (excluding required reading for school, work, training, etc.) is woefully lacking.
But, perhaps, the trend over the last decade has been an incline. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 917
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 07:30 pm: |
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But since there are over 35M Black Americans, that equates to about $10 per Black person.
You know, ABM that your formula assumes that EVERY SINGLE Black person in AMERICA is buying and reading books. Now once you subtract, babies, and preschoolers, too young to read/, and octagenarians, too old to read (perhaps)and unable to go out on thier own and buy, once you factor in these and other variables, even these figures, which Solomon pointed out were at least 3 years old, you have some pretty decent indications that a lot of black folks are buying, and reading books. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1616
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:18 pm: |
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A_womon,
Okay then, young Padawan. Let us engage in a bit of the world's greatest literature; let us do some 'math'.
Per the US Census Office, there are about 36M African American Americans and 70% of us are between the book buying ages of 15 - 74. Thus, about 25M of us are 'probable' book buyers.
Per the Book Industry Study Group (BISG), the average retail price per book sold in the US was $12.50. And per the "The Buying Power of Black America 2002, Blacks spend $303M for books. If we divide the money spent on books by the average retail price, we have an average 24M individual books purchased by Blacks, which is less than the number of probable Black book buyers. Thus, on average, the average Black person buys fewer than a single book per year.
And while $303M would appear to be a lot of money, it pales in comparison to the $27.2B spent (per the BISG) for ALL books per annum. Simply, we are 14% of the population and yet we expend only 1.1% of money exchanged for books.
Moreover, the total annual buying power of US Blacks is $460B which if divided by the $303M Black book market, the ratio of what we earn to what we spend on book is 1,518:1. Or for every $100 we earn, we spend less than SEVEN CENTS for books. (And by comparison, per marketresearch.com, Blacks spent $1.9 Billion on hair care products, which is over 6X what we spend for books.)
My Sister. It is only by the TRUTH that we shall be set free! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 918
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 10:35 pm: |
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To give any amount of credence to the numbers that you have put forth, one would have to make some assumptions, and all would be based on the premise that the book you site from is reporting unbiased numbers.
Now, given the propensity, in this land that we call the USA, America, US,or whatever you choose to lable this land that we call "home", given the propensity here to elevate being white into the region of the gods, simply because, and also given that those elevated beings long to be held aloft as the most healthy, most wealthy, most intelligent, most beautiful, most dynamic, most creative, possessing the best entreprenueral skills, best writers, and yes, in this instance, most well read. Given this data, tell me, dear ABM, why I should EVER trust any statistical data that is advanced by a people so hell bent on proving they are superior at every turn? Do you think that I should buy their "findings" simply because one/a group of them decided to write it down in a book as a factoid?
Well, do as you like my good man. I will continue to think on my own and believe what my eyes and ears tell me, and what I am able to deduce by using my common sense, and not what some elitist white people tell me I should see and think.
adeui! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1619
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 08, 2004 - 11:02 pm: |
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A_womon,
Then WHAT pray-tale at all can you read?
How can you hope to learn ANYTHING at all if you view EVERYTHING via such a racially suspicious purview that you doubt most everything you read, no matter their ACTUAL merits?
The data I cite were from publications that were largely LAUDING/CELEBRATING the ascent of Black book sales/publishing? Why would a writer intentionally use data that unfairly minimize the gist of his or her thesis to begin with?
And "The Buying Power of Black America 2002" is sponsored/managed by Blacks.
But you are correct. You should feel free to believe whatever/however you want. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 609
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 01:51 pm: |
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If there are 25 million African Americans at the book buying age, and we buy 24 million books a year, you don't think there are at least a million of us that get our books from libraries or from other sources? I do. I rarely buy books, but I read them all the time. I go into the bookstores and read there, too. People give me books to read after they are done reading them, too. So, I guess you can say that out of the one million people that didn't buy a book, you probably shouldn't count me, because I've probably read about twenty this year, but I only purchased about five...sorry. I've given at least ten away myself. In fact last spring I donated four milk carts full of books to the 'Thrift Village'. I have to suppose that there are even more African Americans like me that would screw those numbers up because they borrow and loan books, donate books, steal books, and give books away. I have a feeling that there's probably a lot more reading going on among African Americans than we can guess from statistical data. Of course I'm not saying that those numbers are wrong. I'm only saying that we can't make any sweeping judgements about how much black folks read from those numbers. I was surprised to find out how much my daughters actually love to read. I thought that they were only into music, clothes, and their hair...Oh! and of course, boys.
They almost gave me a heart attack when they asked to go to the bookstore with me. We spent most of the evening in there reading. Once, I got up the courage to go into their room and they were actually reading. Yes! Reading! I thought they were afraid. I thought they had forgotten. Not only were they reading. They have books... Everywhere..."Is the cable out?" I asked.
"No," they replied.
"Have your boyfriends died?"
"No," they cried.
"Have you run out of dye?"
And then they asked, "Why?"
"Because you're reading!" I shrieked.
"Dad, you should leave. You're starting to freak. You're acting like a geek. Don't forget I need a new pair of sneeks."
Ahhhh! At last. Some semblance of normalcy. They wanted shoes. My children wanted me to buy them something. They aren't sick after all. They only like to read. All is well in my little world. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 919
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 02:28 pm: |
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Right Lambd, I guess the scenarios you describe could fit into the variables that I said would throw off abm's stats.
Carey, Thank you for the compliment, that was nice of you to say!
BUT DAMN! did you have to bust me out in front of the board? How you know I want them to know how I look? Don't you say NOTHIN else bout my picture! I mean it!!!! NO THIN period. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1622
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 02:35 pm: |
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Lambd,
OF COURSE we find other ways to read books than from buying them. But what does that have to do with cost of tea in Sri Lanka anyway?
And are you going to tell me Blacks spend disproportionately more time borrowing books (from each other, libraries, etc.) than Whites/Asian? If so, I'm going to tell you are out of your GD mind!
Bottomline: People put their money where their mouth is. And the TRUTH is Black spend much more of their discretionary income on things OTHER than books. If Black foks were especially motivated to read we would be BUYING, not just borrowing, more books.
Because at some point, someone...SOMEWHERE...must actually BUY those books you are borrowing and passing around. You had to buy it. They did. Or the library.
The actually buying is the most sincere/accurate reflection of how much people read. Whites, Asians and others pass books around just as Blacks do. But they also BUY more of them. So it stands to reason they'll READ more of them. That is, unless you have a materially higher percentage of Blacks retaining/reading (decades old and antiquated) books than you do others. Which may, in fact, be the case. But I'll allow YOU to prove THAT possible theory.
You know what? Instead of all of the excuse making and blaming it all on massah talk some enjoy doing so much, why not do something a lil' more instructive...like encouraging other Blacks (and your own selves) to BUY/READ more books! Because doesn't the fact that we spend over 6X our dough on maintaing our hair than we do books at least partly explain where we are...and why?
PS: All of the reading without buying that you are doing is morally equivalent to illicitly downloading music from Napster. You are depressing the market value of books in the way that Napster discounted the value of recorded music.
Dude. Stop being so f*#$%ing cheap and BUY some GD BOOKS! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 920
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 02:48 pm: |
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ABM,
Ahhhhhhhh shaddap, h*nkey!
Just jokin abm don't get all bent outta shape!
hmmmmmm I don't know though, abm, you startin' to sound whiter and whiter... are you tryin to pull the (white) wool over our eyes??? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1624
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 02:58 pm: |
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Oh. So here there part where I get accused of being "White" simply because I express some views that are allegedly unpopular amongst (certain) Blacks, huh?
BOOOORIIINNNNGGGG!
BTW: What gives? How come you ain't sent me none of them glam shots of yours? Cuz according to Carey, a brothah can set his 'tools' up on that "rack" of yours and not worry about them falling off. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 921
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:04 pm: |
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now lookee here, I aint tryin to become the "beauty of the week" pull out girl on the aalbc (you know like the one in JET magazine) I aint sendin none of yall no more piC! you'll have to wait till my book is published, then yall can see me on the jacket!! HAHAAHAHA! Or maybe I'll get a website and put it on there like KOLA and Justwrite did!!!
But wait a minute... Do them JET beauties get paid??? Maybe I could send them my picture and... NAAAAH!!
Just jokin yall! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 922
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:06 pm: |
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by the way Carey and ABM, what is a "rack" and is in the front or the back???? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 923
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:17 pm: |
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hahahahaha!!! HEY LAMBD! check me out
I'm in here rhymin
while I'm out and about
They can't get to me
I dont have no doubt
many have tried but I sent
them home to pout,
clean thier grout
fry some trout
run a football route
stuff thier face
in the place
(nah not THAT place ACE!)
till there bellies
nice and stout
then shout
A_womon
girl what you about!!!??
I say hey Im just flossin
bossin tossin
it up
Now here come and TRY
to spit..
Ya game aw sorry! ya missed
it landed in that there cup!!
hAHAHAHA! LET ME QUIT for a REAL poet step up in here and slice me to bits! hahahahaaaha!
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1625
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:25 pm: |
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A_womon,
Awwww! Come on Sweetie Baby, Cookie Honey. Show daddy ABM whatcha workin' with! I've gottah fist fullah $20's with your name written all over them!
The "rack" is the front, Baby.
BTW: Your freestyling was tiiiiigght!
"Uuuuuuuuu! I like it like dat! She workin' dat 'rack'. I don't know how tah act. Slo-motion fuh me. Slo-motion fuh me. Slo-motion fuh me..." |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 924
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:26 pm: |
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oops! wrong board, sorry thump! |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 925
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
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Thanks ABM!
I better move it over to the poetry fore thump deletes it! |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 149
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:00 pm: |
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Lambd, the end of your post was reminiscent of a Cosby episode
Solomonjones I have read the Target Market News survey. It is somewhere around here but I can;t find it now. The one I have was produced, If I'm not mistaken, I became involved in the book business -- much longer than three years ago. Have you actually seen the document? Perhaps there is a new one I'm not familiar with.
ABM: how many people are you. You have too many diverse talents to be one person. Seriously how many people do you have posting with the abm moniker?
A_woman,
quote:Ahhhhhhhh shaddap, h*nkey!
abm may not have been bothered by the comment but it rubbed me the wrong way to read it.
In general, most of us (Blacks) anecdotally and factually spend an insignificant portion of our income on books. Shoot there are many people in publishing that do not read. Ignoring this fact or dismissing it with emotional reactions that sound and feel good will do absolutely nothing to change the condition.
From another perspective, books are a luxury for most people. Image paying $25 bucks and sitting down to dig into Toni Morrison's Love (I realize some of y'all will interpret what I just wrote in a disturbingly gross manner) for example: So much has to be going on in order to accomplish this feat. First you have to have some disposable income, then you have to be literate enough to read Morrison, on top of all that you have the spare time when you have sufficient mental energy to really get into a literary novel.
In NYC street vendors sell books for $7 (Zane for $10). The books are mostly the type of books you find on the fiction side of the AALBC.com best-sellers list (http://books.aalbc.com/bestsellers.htm). $7 bucks is a much more affordable price point and the books are escapist and sensational. The average price of these books is basically $7. The purchasers of these books are predominantly Black. I doubt anyone is capturing the numbers associated with these readers.
These street vendors were not always there. They are obviously meeting a need as they are plentiful and appear to be flourishing despite how numerous they are. There are several right around the corner from the “world Famous” Hue-man Bookstore, on 125th street, here in Harlem.
I’m sure if we had more people addressing the lierary needs of our community we sould have more readers.
So while I agree there are many reason why the numbers abm may have quoted could be understaing Black readership, they can not be dismissed out of hand. No survey that does not sample everybody (which is usually impractical) is 100% accurate, howver if the sruvey is done properly the difference one would find if compared to the entire population would be very small.
I image a day when Black women are reading non-fiction and Black men are reading. “I may not get there with you. But I want you to know tonight that we, as a people, will get to the promised land.”
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 927
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:16 pm: |
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Ok troy, I apologize for the comment. It was a joke that may have been in poor taste I didn't mean to offend anyone (accept maybe abm!)
But troy, how come no one else gets called on anything they post here, except me? You can't tell me that no one else has been offensive around here. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 928
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:29 pm: |
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BTW Troy,
I still maintain that statistical data is only as good as 1) the bias/non bias of the person gathering the statistics 2)what is the makeup of the target group/what types of controls are used to verify/interpret the information/data gathered and 3) whether or not other studies have been conducted by different individuals using different controls and come to the same conclusions |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1629
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:41 pm: |
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A_womon,
That's a fair and valid, argument.
But the most effective argument that you could make would be to offer BETTER, more valid studies/expositions that argue YOUR viewpoint, not simply to offhandedly disqualify the opponents assertions without offering reasonable proof to the contrary. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1630
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 10:58 pm: |
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Troy,
Thanks for the back-up, Chief. But sorry to disappoint you. I am but a single sentient entity. 'Sides. What I do is pretty easy...when you are schizophrenic.
Troy says: "Image paying $25 bucks and sitting down to dig into Toni Morrison's Love (I realize some of y'all will interpret what I just wrote in a disturbingly gross manner)"
ABM says: HAHA! Dude. THAT is one of THE most disgusting things that anyone has posted here! LaughingsohardIthinkIdonep*$$edmypants!
Seriously, though, I hear you on the Morrison tip. But few if any writers are a demanding as Lady T. But as, you appear to say, there's A LOT of books one can buy that are less expensive/challenging that Morrison's works. If one genuinely wants to read, he or she can eke out a book or 2 a year (for Jimny Cricket's Sake!).
And I agree there likely is a sizable percentage of Black book purchases that aren't easily if at all included within the traditional recordkeeping apparatuses. But perhaps there in lies an opportunity for a young truth seeker like...oh...A_WOMON...to take on.
But don't sweat A_womon over the h*nkey comment. She's just working me into this White man fantasy she's been keeping secret from Yukio, Lambd and Carey.
A_womon,
Offend me anytime you want. Just please go-slow when you do it, baby.
K? |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 150
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:00 pm: |
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A_womon:
I'm pretty much of the mind one can say anything they want on this board. I'm sensitive to this particular type of comment Even said in jest, I think these phases are destroying black boys. Let someone try to say something that sounds smart and they are labeled a white boy. Shoot for all I know abm may actually be white, or even extraterrestial. I just wanted to let you know what I thought about the comments however I should have gone into mare detail. From what I've read of your posts I believe you Love Black people. I took you at your word that it was a joke.
It much the same way Solomn Jones said Don Lee (the radio peronsality which read this silly letter on his radion program) has the best intentions. However the best intentions are no excuse for him promulgating this garbage. It further ingrains the idea the white man is responsible for everything. The white man is so freaking smart that he no longer needs force to control us. Maybe is it is really like Woodson said; "if there is no back door, he will cut one for his special benefit."
I believe everyone from time to has been called out on something they typed here. There is no evidence you've cornered the market on that. I've been called on things: ranging from lack of web site updates to my thoughts on poerty reviews.
Shoot, I expect my ideas to be challenged that is why I expose them to you folks here. It forces me to think ideas through and look at them from different perspectives.
Keep posting A_womon!
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A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 929
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:23 pm: |
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Thanks ABM! damn just when I think I got you figgered out you come from a different angle! DONT SAY IT! JUST DON'T SAY IT!
Troy,
Ok I can see why that comment may have "rubbed you the white way" ahahahahaha! ok ok Im sorry but lambd's line just popped into my head right at that moment and I couldn't resist!!
Anyway I do understand your point! And thanks I will do just that! |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 309
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:36 pm: |
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Damn A_Women, you gonna let TRoy call you out AND kiss his behind too!
I'm just kidding!
But ABM's post did get me to thinking about you and white men. Come on, come on out with it. I won't be mad at you. You can still hang out with us, if Moon don't mind *lol*. |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 09, 2004 - 11:50 pm: |
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Carey your comment below, rubbed me the wrong way
quote:Damn A_Women, you gonna let TRoy call you out AND kiss his behind too!
Comments like this are sole reason Black Males/Female relationship are the state that they are in now. Let a Brother and Sister come to an understanding and somebody gotta say something crazy... Just joking, really.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1631
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:04 am: |
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Troy,
I hear you.
That whole you sound like a White guy thing used to bug the crap outtah me until I realized that foks usually said that when it was clear that I was winning the argument (which, in of itself, is a perverse indicator of self-hatred). So now when I hear it, I pretty much think to myself...'game-set-n-match'. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 310
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:04 am: |
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Troy
As I was reading your post I kind of was waiting for a punchline. Cause ahh, what you or I have to say has nothing to do with Richards breath stinkin'.
It's good to see you hangin' out with us on a Saturday night. Btw, what are you doing, slummin'?
I mean, you generally say a little something and you're on your way, what's up? On the real side, you don't really know how deep that cut my sidekick when you called her out but she handled it well, I am so proud of her. Really, a couple of months ago she would have called you names that would have made yoour toes curl up.
A_Womon, tell him, give us a little then and now, pleeeeeeease! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1632
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:07 am: |
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A_womon says: "...you [ABM] come from a different angle!"
ABM say: LAWD! I try not to be bad. But dey make it SO easy! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 12:16 am: |
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Carey,
I'm sure the more sober A_womon is a product of your skillful private 'tutelage', no doubt.
BTW: Got any of A_womon's "rack" pics handy? I'll trade you for some of Kola and Moonsigns wrestling in chocolate pudding. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 930
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 01:26 am: |
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Carey!!! Don't you dare!!!! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 612
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:00 am: |
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Abm: You insist on reading into my posts. I was only saying that we can't make any statements about how much Blacks read solely on how many books are sold. That's it and thats all. You seem to take offense to anything said to you and want to start a debate. I never questioned your stats and I never disagreed with your views. (You're not still over there sulking because Kola and Moonsigns seem to want to chat from time to time are you? You can get some, playah. Just take your head out ya ass, and stop being so damn argumentative about nothing)
You assume that people do nothing instructive besides yourself. Well sir, allow me to help you down from your high horse. I just don't brag about every little thing that I have been involved in. I spent years in the school systems tutoring elementary and junior high school kids in reading and math in my spare time. I have visited schools in the past to encourage our youth in furthering their education and present kids with alternatives that are realistic when higher education just isn't plausible for them at the time. So you see, I do things instructive all the time. I'm not exactly the enemy of the community here, Abm. I try to do my share with the literacy problems facing the community. Maybe if I didn't spend time volunteering and worked a part-time job somewhere I could add to your stats and be able to afford more books. I think in the meantime and in between time, I'll just get them the way I can and continue to let you knock my way of life...in jest or otherwise. Oh. And forgive me if I gave the impression that Whites and Asians don't steal as many books as AA's. I'm pretty sure they do. I don't remember comparing how many whites buy books to how many blacks buy books because I could care less. I just think more Blacks read than those statistics show...no offense. Come on now, Abm. You know I'm always pro-Black! I can't help it. It's like a sickness wit me. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 613
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:02 am: |
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I also never once 'blamed Massah' for the illiteracy problems in our community, BTW. You pulled that one out ya ass, potnah. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 280
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:30 am: |
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Hello All,
Lambd: I see ABM's point. Albeit, I'm on the inside looking out, but the publishing business is just that BUSINESS. It doesn't help any author to have their books being passed around from person to person. For instance, Mat Johnson's book Hunting In Harlem wasn't a big seller, but everywhere I go, damn near everybody has read it. While it's good that the book is being read, Johnson can't go to the publisher of his next book and say, "hey look everybody read it, its just that nobody bought it". All the publisher is seeing is that the book didn't sale. See my point?
Now, although you may say that I can't talk since I don't buy my books, you would be wrong. I do get plenty of books free, most I care not to read. But I still buy books. Rarely do I mention the books I buy online because if the publisher/author is that damn cheap as to not send me a copy, bug 'em, no free publicity from me.
ABM: I find it strange (and I've said it before) that while you're on Lambd case so, how come you come to a book discussion board and you never discuss books? *eyebrow raised* Now everybody sit back and watch the best dancing since Bojangles. ABM, How many books have you bought AND READ lately? |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 281
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:31 am: |
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Hello All,
Lambd: If "massah" isn't to blame for our illiteracy, who is? *eyebrow raised* |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 311
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 10:57 am: |
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Ahhh......ahhh ABM, meet me at the spot and we can tslk about it. Now I ain't promising anything but I can be moved. Kola and Moon huh? Naw, that ain't going to get it. Maybe if you had a Mickey Mantle rookie card we could talk. That reminds me, Kola's book landed on my daughters front door and I got a call. She said, "dad what are you into". I didn't know what she was talking about so of course I said, "what". She said, what's up with this naked women on this book. I still didn't know where she was coming from until she said this strange looking women is naked on this book. See, I didn't know that Kola's nude behind was all exposed on the book so I was shocked. This is my daughter I'm talking about and she has her daddy at the highest point on the scale so she was taken aback by this. Anyway, I did my daddy explain thang and we are cool. But man, talking about wiggling out of something. So your barter offering is not that valuable in this house . This is the same daughter that came to me years ago with tears in her eyes after finding my playboys under the bed *smile*.
Anyway, let's switch gears, I might have mislead you from the jump. I should have said my partner A_womon has a nice ....ahhh......well, she's pulling a wagon, a nice wagon. I didn't mean.....ahhh....ahhh....let me get out of this, her slow motion would take awhile...okay.
Later |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 312
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:02 am: |
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Speaking of my daughter, she lives in Atlanta and I was suppose to visit her this weekend while I was there to attend a wedding. Something happened and the trip was canceled. Now she's saying she's going to send the book back to me C.O.D *smile*. Women, sometimes I wonder. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1644
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 11:09 am: |
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Thumper,
Over the last couple of couple of months I purchased/read a couple of James Baldwin books "The Devil Finds Work" (which I recently discussed via a thread on this site http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/1684.html ) and "If Beale Street Could Talk". I bought/read "Willie Lynch: Why African-Americans have so many issues" by a Marc Sims. And I've bought/read a couple of non-AA centered books (mostly reference guides).
Frankly, on the occasion where I have commented on books, I find the discussions to be a bit 'brief' for my tastes. Thus, I tend to focus my commentary on those subjects that are more inclined to engender more dialog. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 933
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:17 pm: |
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Carey,
PERHAPS I didn't make this plain enough? Did you not "hear" me when I asked you NOT to discuss my picture on the boards? I guess your promise doesn't mean a damn thang does it? What's next? will I look up and Find that you've pasted my picture on this website WITHOUT my permission?
Im taking this personally, especially since you are not sharing details about other women on this board who have sent you pictures!
Im beginning to get ANGRY!!! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 620
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:20 pm: |
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Thumper: I think that 'Massah' may have contributed to some degree but not wholey to blame. I was just saying to Abm that I never referenced his or your 'Massah' at all.
Also note that I agree we should all buy more books for the good of the industry. I just don't out of laziness and cheapness as Abm said. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 621
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:30 pm: |
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We don't always do what we know to be right.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 622
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 02:32 pm: |
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And who asked you anyway, Thumpdaddy????????
***my thickazz unibrow raised*** |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 283
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:10 pm: |
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Hello All,
Lambd: You wrote, "Thumper: I think that 'Massah' may have contributed to some degree but not wholey to blame. I was just saying to Abm that I never referenced his or your 'Massah' at all."
Who said I had a Massah? I was just asking a question.
Labmd wrote, "And who asked you anyway, Thumpdaddy????????"
Why, you did, bay-bee! *LOL*
ABM: You read those books MONTHS ago, dawg. I'm glad you brought up Baldwin's The Devil Finds Work. I'm going to have to put it on my "To Read" list. Don't be stingy, bring us up to speed with whatcha readin right now. I may have to borrow Lambd's copy, which is really Jeanette's copy, which she kinda borrowed from Cool, who got it from his mama, Mrs. Ethyletta Nickelback, who took it from the library, etc... *big smile*
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 626
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 04:38 pm: |
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Dayyum! By time I get that book back, all the ink gonna be rubbed off the pages! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1645
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 06:01 pm: |
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Lambd,
The "Massah" quip was inspired by A_womon's allusions to the alleged perversion of booking buying statistic.
Thumper,
I am currently reading "Homemade Love" by J. California Cooper (Zora Neale Hurston-lite).
And I have also been intermittently reviewing "The Business of Music" by a Bill Kraskilovsky and Sidney Shemel (comprehensive guide on virtually all the business aspects of music), "The Immortal Poems of the English Language" edited by Oscar Williams (analogy of the 'so-called' greatest poems of the last 1/2 millennium) and "Face To Face" by Ken Boa (a daily, practical guide for incorporating Christian prayer in one's life).
BTW: How do YOU know when I have read the books I have cited? You've been reading my private journal (again)? |
High_density
Newbie Poster
Username: High_density
Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 10, 2004 - 07:25 pm: |
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I must confess: I don't read as many books annually as I did in my younger years. Why? because it is diffcult for me to juggle a 60+ hours work week, classes, study groups, domestic chores,prayer and bible studies, taking care of my husband and two dogs...and all the other "essentials" for living...to curl up with a "good" book. I concur that black people do read and buy books... as I read and often encourage others in my circle of influence to read. I also believe that across the races and various socio cultural and economic classes, folk don't read as much as they did before the internet and the ability to select more that four televisions stations.
About Statitistical Data:
Yes, stats can be misleading. I still don't know the true size of the black US population. Is it 12 or 20 percent? So we are now the second largest minority following the Latino and Hispanic population, si? Take it from a former U.S. census taker and one who lived in her home 5 years before the US Census folks even bothers to stop by my house. Can I get a witness? The truth be told, "Ya know them numbers ain't right"!
Who can we believe? All the more reason to carefully scrutnize all information! Gotta believe the Native Americans when they tell us that (certain people) "speak with forked tongues"!Yes, read, but be careful what you read and believe! Society is bombarded with lies and deceit. It is the American way. Am I right? Why are we in Iraq? Stealing, robbing and destroying somebody else's land. Doing what our government specializes: Deception
Even, God says "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge "(Hosea 4:6) We must become a better society of readers and critical thinker. Am I right?
I think it was Emily Dickerson who wrote, "There is no frigate like a book", and I am fortunate to have learned this as a child many years ago (I'm on the right side of 35..) when my parents, avid readers themselves, took me to the public library and at age five, I thought I had made it to heaven!
What matters most: How much we read or what we read? I still chortle over some of the things that are published. Bottomline: Trash! Yes, I loved Everett Percival's book, "Erasure" and I'd loved to see: "Erasure: The Movie"!
If we could wean ourselves off the "plug in drugs", perhaps we would have more time to read good books. Ah, on that note, I bid you peace.
Cheers to all readers |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 315
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 03:29 am: |
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To A_Womon
If I was a poet I'd write you a love letter to ease your pain that I share. I am sorry if I crossed the line in my attempt at humor.
I know of few ladies that would bristle upon reading the highest forms of compliments that I bestowed upon you. However if your wish is that I no longer speak of your beauty, I will honor that.
However, since I can not understand why you chose to take that position and are truely hurt by it, I will no longer add you to my folly, because I do not desire to be the target of your sharp arrows. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 936
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 09:01 am: |
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Well if you can't understand why I don't want to be dissected into body parts on this board, oh well! I thanked you for your compliments the first time and then you kept on!
So do what you gotta do... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1652
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 09:41 am: |
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Lambd,
I am sorry. Obviously, I can be a bit too preachy.
You are right.
I have no idea what you do/don't do. Nor do I have much cause to speak on such.
I applaud your efforts to encourage & improve literacy/learning. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 630
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 10:09 am: |
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Dayyum! Thanks, Abe, you are obviously a scholar. Who knew you could be a gentleman from time to time too. I plan to buy you a Hieneken today. Since I have no idea where you are, and hate to let good beer go to waste, I will have to drink that same Hieneken after I finish my own. However, consider it bought and enjoyed! And to honor our favorite target Yukio I will buy him one as well. Again since I have no idea where he is, I will have to drink that beer when I finish yours...Cheers gentlemen! One and all. Hey! If anyone else needs me to buy them a beer and drink it today, consider it done. Think nothing of it. What can I say. I am a generous guy. Just remember, all of you owe me. When I am in your respective towns I plan to collect from all of you freeloaders. Imagine, accepting all of this free beer from a working class schmoe such as myself without even offering to pitch in. Shame on all of you! |
Solomonjones
Regular Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 49
Registered: 02-2004
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 11:24 pm: |
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ABM -
I see that you disagreed with my earlier post regarding the number of books that black folks buy per year. You're right. Three hundred fifty million sounds like a lot of money. And it is. But your mention of Book Industry Study Group is just one example of why there are such large disparities regarding the buying patterns of black book buyers. For years, BISG did not include black and Hispanic book buyers in their studies of book buyers. They assumed that blacks simply did not read enough books to warrant study. Perhaps that's why my sources say blacks spend $350 million annually on books, while yours say $303 million.
As I scrolled down further, I noticed that some other posters talked about the pass-along value of books. This is a well known phenomenon in marketing; so well known that magazine publishers include pass along value when calculating the cost of advertising in their publications. Some of us don't have money to buy all the books we read. But we find ways to get them anyway. I know this because book buyers often come in pairs when I do signings. One of them buys one of my books. The other buys another. They agree (right in front of me, despite my protestations) to trade books when they finish. Why? Because although they both want to read both books, neither of them can afford to buy two.
That black folks spend hundreds of million of dollars on books (we both still agree that it's over $300 million right?) is a major accomplishment when you consider that books are entertainement. That means that books compete with theaters, cable television, satellite television, DVDs, CDs, magazines, newspapers, and the Internet for the entertainment dollar. And books still win a large percentage of the time. That's miraculous.
I repeat, it's a well known fact within the industry that blacks are a growth market in publishing. That's why publishers are falling over each other to serve black readers. And that's why we should bask in the glory of this moment in black literary history.
Not only are black readers buying more books than ever, black publishers are putting black authors on the shelves, black authors are being paid for the work they produce, black agents are being paid for the deals they negotiate, black publicists are being paid to reach black media, and while black media may not be getting the ads they deserve (that's a whole new argument), give it time. If we're smart, that will come around, too.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 637
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 10:41 am: |
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Solomon Jones, I must admit that I have never read any of your books, but I think I'll go and check your shytt out and give it a try. I will let you know what I think. (whether you like it or not). It SEEMS someone as grounded as you MIGHT be able to write a good book. I would also like to meet someone like you one day. Let me know when one of your whirlwind book tours stops in the DC metro area, and I'll have you sign one for me. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1662
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 02:15 pm: |
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Solomonjones,
Thanks. Because you are especially prepared to engage in a productive conversation here.
First. I am not sure whether I disagree with your books sales number. I would have used your numbers had I found anything that supported it. But since I was trying to back-up my numbers, I felt compelled to report that which became available to me.
I'll accept it is possible that your Black book sale totals are more accurate than mine.
But consider this: Even if we TRIPLED YOUR $350M black book sales totals, they would constitute less than 4% of ALL book sales ($27.2 BILLION). And this is, again, a paltry sum when compared to our constituting 14% (or [worse] 20% if you consider High_density's musings) of the nation's population.
See. In the end, we are quibbling over peanuts while others are eating STEAK.
I agree the "pass along" value is an important 'statistic' concerning book reading. And I imagine library borrowing would fall within this phenomenon.
The problem, however, with including the "pass along" factor within this discussion is we don't really know what that is/are. For instance, do Black people "pass along" books more frequently than others? Perhaps we do. But I doubt that many (if any) of us can fairly assert whether a material disparity between others and us exist and (via mathematical accuracy) how such should be uniquely accounted for within Black reading.
But if you are aware the results of any related studies that prove we have a higher "pass along" ratio than others, please "pass" them along.
We disagree about the relative merits of the scale of Black book buying. I think our spending less than 7 cents on every $100 we earn is a GLARING example of WHY we struggle as a people. Because, to me, that symbolizes our lacking appreciation for learning. And remember, we spend SIX TIMES the amount of cash on getting our 'hur did' than we do books.
Is that kind of prioritizing conducive to our advancing both individually and collectively as a people?
Yes. There appears to be A LOT of recent hype surrounding Black books. I imagine, though, much of that is occurring because sales amongst Whites and others have largely plateau and desperate business people will got WHEREVER there appears to be at least a modicum of action in a market.
And, I wager, publisher are probably earning higher unit profits on Black books than they are those by/for Whites, because they aren't having to invest as much in acquiring/marketing Black books. So, yeah, why not hype up Black books. Because I'm making 2 - 3X the profit per book from them as I am from my other books. Still, they are a small percentage of my overall sales/profits.
If fervor Black books sales are providing the tributary effects that you cite, that is indeed a good thing that we should all support and promote.
But although we are making some small inroads, we STILL have a very long way to go. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 638
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 04:01 pm: |
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Abm says: For instance, do Black people "pass along" books more frequently than others?
Abm please explain to me how this relates to what is being discussed here? Are we discussing black book sales opposed to other races or are we discussing how much/little blacks read? I think this is part of the reason I can't follow on the level that you two are on because I am stuck on one thing while you two have moved on to something else. I bought up the 'pass on value' of books (even though I didn't know that it actually had a name) to show that your black book-buying statistics shouldn't be the only thing used to show how little blacks read. However, I agree that it sheds some light on how much we spend on books. It may be a matter of semantics, however I would like it if you straightened me out on this so that I can get a better handle on the conversation. (sans the sarcasm and the insults) I'd really like to be on the same page as you scholars, if thats at all possible. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1667
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 04:32 pm: |
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Lambd,
This topic started off with some (questionable?) notion about Blacks not reading. Thus, it seems to me anything concerning when/how a Black person might come in contact with a book should be relevant to the discussion.
Specifically, we were talking about the frequency to which Black foks read books. Thus, it seems reasonable to consider the likelihood/frequency by which we "pass along" books to each other might occur.
But perhaps you should ask Solomonjones why HE, not I, (re)introduced this "pass along" element to this discussion.
And it confusing me is why you would inject something into the discussion then become confused by WHY others might expand upon it. Are paying attention to (or know) what you're writing, Dawg Brothah? Hehe!
I think you were correct to note that foks pass books along. Because as said by SJ, that is an important barometer of the relative popularity of any publication. I was simply asking how do we factor than within larger calculus of book buying/reading.
I guess, though, I would (slightly) qualify SJ comments by saying I think this "pass along" feature is of more immediate importance to publishers of newpapers/magazines than it is to books. Periodical publishers want their ads to be seen by as many people as possible because that will determine how much they can try to swindle out of their ad sponsors. Book publishers, however, do not receive additional monies everytime their book is exchange.
BTW: Authors: Are you paid a royalty everytime your book is resold? If not, why? |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 639
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 12, 2004 - 06:15 pm: |
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Abm, I never interjected anything of the sort. I spoke of Blacks passing books along but I think it was you who wanted to compare if blacks passed along as many as other races or vice versa. Remember, I said I didn't care because that has nothing to do with the literacy of the black populus. I already know why SJ introduced the term "pass along". It was because I didn't already know the term. I only knew that this phenomenon exists and since it did, your stats alone could not give us a realistic viewpoint on how much blacks read. I asked YOU a simple enough question (or so I thought, but I'm just simple-minded so and so): Which is the status quo, how much blacks read or how many books blacks buy/pass along opposed to other races? You see, these are two very different topics, (to me, I could be wrong). You seem to want to discuss how many books blacks buy or "pass on" compared to other races. Which is fine. This is a good topic and it should be discussed. If 40 white kids pass along 35 books between them how does that effect the 40 black kids that pass around 10? Sure the black kids will not have read as many books as the white kids, but in the end aren't all the kids reading books? Who's to say that the the 30 black kids that don't have the 10 books that are being passed around aren't reading newspapers, magazines or materials from other sources in between? And if the 40 white kids pass around one hundred books, that still doesn't effect the literacy of our people. The only thing that has anything to do with the literacy of our people is our people. If they buy more books than we do, that doesn't make us more illiterate. That only means we bought less books. I don't know. I guess I'm just a lughead optimist. I think those stats are misleading and that blacks are reading more than those book buying stats are showing. When I was a young man I worked in a warehouse. Every man in that warehouse read the newspaper everyday. I never saw a book in any of those big macho guys hands. Does that mean they weren't well read? I don't know, but I know they can read. Maybe I'm wrong, but I got my faith in the Black population. Like I said, I don't doubt your numbers. I guess I'm like Wesley. I 'always bet on black'. I know literacy amongst blacks is a problem. I'm not blind. I just think that we need more info than book buying stats. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1673
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 02:45 am: |
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Lambd,
I could maintain what is proving to be an unnecessarily confusing discussion. But why bother. I will simply say the following:
Black foks as a whole don’t read (books/magazine/newpapers) as much as they should and don’t read as much as others do! Everything I have witnessed, know and read supports that postion. Now, if you you, Solomonjones, Thumper, A_womon, Troy or even the Holy Virgin Mary can prove otherwise, I welcome witnessing such. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 947
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 08:58 am: |
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Black foks as a whole don’t read (books/magazine/newpapers) as much as they should and don’t read as much as others do! Everything I have witnessed, know and read supports that postion. Now, if you you, Solomonjones, Thumper, A_womon, Troy or even the Holy Virgin Mary can prove otherwise, I welcome witnessing such
Well ABM,
Your (questionable) statistical data aside, YOU have yet to prove your stance either! SOOOOOOOOOO????? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1674
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 10:16 am: |
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A_womon,
The world ABOUNDS with evidence - both empirical and metaphysical - of what I assert.
But is impossible to "prove" ANYTHING to those who refuse to accept that which conflicts with what they WANT to believe.
So I'll ask you (and anyone else) the following: Can YOU "prove" me wrong? |
Linda
Veteran Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 75
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 06:38 pm: |
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I have to agree with ABM on this one...blacks do not read as much as they should. That is why this site and countless others post news of relevance, in the hopes that some tidbit of info doesn't get by those who ordinarily don't pick up newspapers, journal, etc. The buying statistics may indicate a rise in the business for AA authors based solely on the fact that they are buying now obtainable genres written by AA authors, but are they actually reading them. I have to say I have my doubts. I run into men/women all the time while attending many of events/conferences/in general who have books in hand/on shelves and when asked about what and who they are reading are quick to say - I probably won't read this, Girl, I don't even know who this author is, I don't have the time or I'll give it away - I'm just trying to show support for the author. Monetarily this is good for the author, but it in no way indicates the work will be read at all by anyone. Even on this very board numerous individuals always state this book or that book is on my to-be-read-list, yet they never seem to get around to it....hmmmm. Still they purchased it. So we see a rise in buying, not reading. Perhaps if this wasn't the case more teachers would applaud, sat scores would be higher and we would have more discussions on this board about books and essays, articles, world events, etc., because it was actually read. Let's face it, most people - regardless of color - don't have the time/take the time or feel the need to read something unless it pertains to an individual need for the moment: sitting in the doctors/dentist office, barber shops, beauty shops, etc. There are too many things at home to do: maintain a household, play video games, watch movies, talk on the phone, answer the cell, look for jobs, be depressed, even when material is available. Reading is considered a luxury at the bottom of the list of those households that are just trying to survive and unfortunately most of those households are AA. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 289
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 08:43 pm: |
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Hello All,
I'm going to have to get on the same bandwagon that ABM and Linda is on. I don't believe we are reading as much as we should be. I'm using the books that I get sent to be reviewed. Many of these books are written on a 3rd or 5th grade level. So the education that we have gotten, or are getting, can't be that damn good. Yet, many of us want to give the impression that we are reading because we think to have a book in our hand, or have books around the house is a sign of intelligence. But, hell, if the Goosebumps books are more challenging to read than any of our "bestsellers", then not only are we not in the race, we're still in bed sleeping off last night drunk. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1540
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 11:31 pm: |
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I agree with Abm, Linda, and Thumper. Black folks do a lot more looking and listening than they do reading. In general, as a race, we are "right-brained," and relate more to sight and sound than to abstract conceptions. (Which means we are also more creative and spontaneous) Individually, I still say that you are either a reader or you're not a reader, and the litmus test is that no matter how busy you are, you will find the time to read because of your affinity for the printed word. |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 329
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, October 13, 2004 - 11:55 pm: |
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Hello
I am standing right behind Cyn-Cyn on this one. Like anything else in your life, you will find the time to do it, no doubt about it. Take a quick second and use yourselves as an example, think about the things that you really enjoy and then notice how it crowds out less meaningful activities. That doesn't mean the other things are of less importants like exercise and eating nevertheless like Cyn-Cyn said you're a reader or you're not, you will find the time to read. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 950
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 08:20 am: |
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I don't agree, and Ive already stated why. But a lot of my friends and I read A LOT! and we talk about it and we share books and I don't believe this is limited to my circle of friends and I dont believe most black people buy books as a status symbol! I think that's baloney |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 330
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Settle down little girl, why such fury in your response?
I know I know, "I'M NOT ANGRY"
But you sho' should like it. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1685
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 02:52 pm: |
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Foks,
Some of us get so caught up in trying to prove we are as good as (if not better than) 'the man', that we refuse to accept truths that paint less than flattering portraits of us. But as long as one refuses to believe he or she is sick, he or she in all likelihood will not do what is needed to heal.
Simply: We are much better off saying "Yeah. We ain't reading (and writing) enough and we need to improve our literacy if we are going to improve our overall condition."
I, however, don't know whether or not Black foks buy books more to APPEAR than actually BE literate. And I don't know if that is especially relevant either way. LAWD just please let us get ahold of some of'em. Because if we aren't really buying/borrowing/trading books, then we sure as tootin' can't READ'em.
Linda,
Those who can and are inclined to read, will do so regardless of how busy/poor they are.
Perhaps, though, some of us might have to forego an occassional 'hur' appointment or club hoppin' jaunt (which even the busiest/poorest alway find enough money/time for). But the monies from either such self-gratuity could in many cases be used instead to buy as many as 3 hardcover or 5 paperback books.
Heck. If a person did that only ONCE per year, he or she would be WELL ahead of the national average for Black foks.
Cynique,
That right-brained (left-brained) talk sounds interesting. But it kinda scares me. Because it can easily be misconscued into arguments wielded into crack-pot theories proferred by White Supremist types like those who authored cockamamie crap like "The Bell Curve".
Thumper,
Hey! Don't crack on the "Goosebump" books. My kids and I dig'em. Hehe! |
Solomonjones
Regular Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 50
Registered: 02-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 09:25 pm: |
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LAMBD –
Thank you for the compliment, brother. I will indeed let you know next time I’m in the D.C. Baltimore area. I’m there at least three or four times a year.
ABM –
You take an interesting tack in this debate. You claimed that black people don’t read “as much as they should.” Yet, when A-Womon asked you to prove your claim, you sidestepped the question and instead challenged several people to prove you wrong. Bravo. If only John Kerry had been so shrewd during the presidential debates . . . But I digress. I think we both know that you sidestepped the question because your point is impossible to prove for several reasons. First, who determines how much black folks "should" be reading? Second, it is highly likely that the empirical data you cite comes from people, entities and organizations that have no real idea of what goes on in the black community. Most data of this type is gathered by random sampling, which works fine in the mainstream, where there is a marked homogeneity to the population. But in the black community, where there is so much economic diversity (and I dare say, so many underground economies), random sampling cannot possibly capture or trace everything that happens with our dollars -- even when it comes to books. I will give you an example. There is a group of brothers who sell books here in Philadelphia on the corner of 52nd and Market. One of those brothers approached me at a festival and asked if I would come out to the corner to do a signing with them because my novels are among their best sellers. I think those brothers are remarkable entrepreneurs. Which begs the question: Do you think the books those brothers sell on the street are included in the numbers that you cite? Neither do I. Here's another less savory example: There is an organized group of brothers here in Philadelphia who steal books from mainstream bookstores, then resell them on the street at a great discount. Theyliterally have customers who wait for them to deliver the books they request. Do you think those sales are included in your numbers? Neither do I. I’m not sure that I’m qualified to say how much black folks “should” be reading. I know that most males don’t read books as often as females do. But I wouldn’t be so quick to agree with numbers that come from people who neither have an interest in nor great knowledge of our community, our economics, or our buying habits.
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Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 331
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2004 - 10:52 pm: |
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Hello Solomon
Nice post.
I am waiting for ABM's reply. ABM is a great debator, you didn't leave many openings so I hope he doesn't have me .........zzzzzzzzzzz wai.......wait to long. I turn into a pumpkin a little after the sun goes down.
So ABM get on with it . |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1702
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |
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Solomonjones (SJ) says: "You take an interesting tack in this debate...you sidestepped the question and instead challenged several people to prove you wrong."
ABM says: I ask, AGAIN, how can I possibly "prove" something to someone who won’t appreciate witnessing something that conflicts with what they’d rather believe?
Even a eagle can’t be made to see that which it refuses to even look at.
Look. The main reason why I presented statistics to begin with was to try to move the discussion beyond that of unsubstantiated and biased anecdotal conjecture and inferences. I’m not out to just win an argument. I am trying to inform and learn. So I say, AGAIN, I (STILL) await you or anyone else providing ANYTHING that proves me to be in error.
For instances, if there is indeed such a important, thriving under-reported Black books market (and I know there is), you should be able to recall SOME research that has been performed of it. Because guess what. If that DOESN’T exist, then THAT is the very kind of thing that support the essence of what I have been arguing to begin with (Because smart [Black] people typically eschew performing studies on things that they feel other [Black] foks are not interested in...READING.).
SJ says: "Bravo. If only John Kerry had been so shrewd during the presidential debates . . . But I digress."
ABM says: Indeed! And Thanks!
SJ says: "I think we both know that you sidestepped the question because your point is impossible to prove for several reasons. First, who determines how much black folks "should" be reading?"
ABM says: I agree that the degree to which Black people read is difficult to quantify as one would, say, the elements of a recipe for my wife’s grandmama’s DEELIISHUUS sweet potato pies (which, lemme tellyah, is better than sex with a pair of recovering nymphomaniacs who’ve just fallen off the wagon).
But can we pretend that at least you and I both read with some regularity?
Because dude, come on now. There are SOOOOO many statistics including high school drop-out rate, adult illiteracy rates, poor standardized exam scores, lower college matriculation rates and many other statistic that BLARE OUT the point of our lack of reading that it is almost embarrassing for me to continue to debate this. And many of those stats are accumulated by BLACK and/or affiliated organizations who presumably have little to no motivation to unfairly degrade Blacks in ways that you fear others might.
Now. Are you REALLY prepared to argue that those and myriad other disabilities within our community are not at least in material part indicative of our lacking literacy. If so, then I implore you to enlighten me otherwise.
SJ says: "Second, it is highly likely that the empirical data you cite comes from people, entities and organizations that have no real idea of what goes on in the black community...Neither do I."
ABM says: I will likely agree with most of what you say about the un(der)reported Black book economy. But, AGAIN, even if we TRIPLED what YOU YOURSELF (quite proudly) reported, that would STILL represent LESS THAN four percent of the overall book market. So even if 2/3rds of our books sales are wholly unreported, all tolled we would STILL represent a piddling amount/proportion of all the books sold.
SJ says: "I’m not sure that I’m qualified to say how much black folks "should" be reading.
ABM says: Au contraire, my Brothah! I think that someone of your schooling, training and experiences is ESPECIALLY prepared examine and describe our reading. And the extent to which someone like you think/do otherwise, we all suffer.
SJ says: "I know that most males don’t read books as often as females do. But I wouldn’t be so quick to agree with numbers that come from people...or our buying habits."
ABM says: I agree. So I propose the following; Let us deliberate on how we might perform a study that could more thoroughly captures the degree breadth, depth and quality of what our people read. I am sure that you would agree we would ALL benefit from that. The result of such a study would gives more weight to our requiring publishers to produce a broader assortment of Black books, which then gives Black writers, readers and all others involved MORE opportunities.
And since you are a noteworthy, well-trained and published author/journalist, I (and I’m sure that ["Oh my gosh! Solomonjones is SOOOOO FIONE!"] A_womon) would proudly follow your lead in such an endeavor.
PS: Blacks are not the only foks engaged in thriving underground books markets. Don’t believe me? Visits White suburbs on a warm/sunny day. You’ll witness scores of middle-age White women dealing ol’ Danielle Stelle, Nora Roberts and Jackie Collins novels in garage sales and flea markets like foks dealing crack on an inner city street corner. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 969
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 10:05 pm: |
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ABM said:
Because dude, come on now. There are SOOOOO many
statistics including high school drop-out rate, adult illiteracy rates, poor standardized exam scores, lower college matriculation rates and many other statistic that BLARE OUT the point of our lack of reading
AGAIN ABM, you keep citing examples to back up your theories on statistical data that one would have to ASSUME iS accurate. Here's the thing, how does the study gather data that can interpret that the things you cite are caused by a lack of reading?
How do any of these studies you cite quantify how much AA's SHOULD read. What is the standard which regulates how much any group Should read compared to how much that said group Does read? Who gathers and interprets this data if any such data exits? And if in fact, you cannot equate the number of black books bought to the number read, how then can you attibute white books bought equals white books read?
I can attribute all of those issues you ascribe to lack of reading, to many, many other things, not the least of which is the fact that ALL public shools are biased in the teaching of cirriculum to benefit white students. I dont need a statistical study to bear out my statement, and neither does anyone else. All you need do, is go to an inner city school, look at things like cirriculum, and books used, computer availability, the condition of the damn school rooms, and then go to a school that has maybe one or two minorities in the ENTIRE system, and compare the differences, YOU KNOW which one will come out on top. Don't believe me? I challenge you to try it!
abm said:But is impossible to "prove" ANYTHING to those who refuse to accept that which conflicts with what they WANT to believe.
Now if you could just see your own reflection in those words as you cite them!
Lastly ABM said:I (and I’m sure that ["Oh my gosh! Solomonjones is SOOOOO FIONE!"] A_womon) would proudly follow your lead in such an endeavor.
Well what's up with that? You startin to sound like you a litte, eensy bit, jealous that Mr JOnes, is ffffffffoine!! This aint the first time you have mentioned this. On another thread you mentioned me slobbering over the super foine Mr Jones. Hey, what can I say? AT the end of the day HE IS WHAT HE IS!!!
and about him being married you and almost all of the women on this board are married and the things that YOU, abm have said to them go WAAAAAAAAAY beyond the scope of me stating the obvious in Mr. Jones case. Like my granny used to say: aint you a FINE example of the POT calling the Kettle black? HAAHAHHAHAHA
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 647
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 10:30 pm: |
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Son, (I mean no disrespect when I say 'son'. I don't mean son of man, son of mine or sun that shine...just 'son' all in fun)...Son, in my profession and in my volunteer work I have found it to be true that Blacks do not read as much as they probably should. Surprised? However, I do believe that that point cannot be made solely on those statistics that you cited because there are too many other variables that should be considered. Your last post, Solomon's posts, A_woman's and my own support that. All of these things should be taken into consideration.
Linda, I think the fact that there are forums such as this one is a testament to the fact that Blacks read more than most people think they do.
Illiteracy among our people is certainly a problem, but it is a problem that can be addressed through the school systems, the church,
role models (such as Abm and Solomjones...not so much Thumper and ol' Sarge. They're a bit strange.) and most of all volunteer work in the school systems. There are the Heart Programs and the Helping Hand programs where folks can get in the trenches and help kids other than their own in problem areas such as reading and language skills. Like someone said on this thread earlier, we can't address this problem if we refuse to see it. Then we have to do more than yak about it on the message boards. This thing has to be attacked at elementary and middle school level. If we can instill the benefits of reading at those ages, hopefully it will stick and those kids will become adults that will pass the benefits on. The teachers can't do it all. I was lucky. My mom and and my aunt taught me how to read before I started school and carried my chocolate butt to the library weekly. Most kids today don't have that kind of educational support system for a number of reasons. The parents send them to school and hope for the best. Most time the overworked and understaffed school systems put the shytt out there and hope some of the kids can latch on to it. Those that don't, fall to the wayside and sometimes never catch up.
Sorry for the long post. Try to decipher as much as you can and holla back. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 648
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 15, 2004 - 10:33 pm: |
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Justwrite and Abm: to make a long story short because that stuff that I just post is going to get twisted, this is what I think:
I think Blacks read more than we give them credit for, however illiteracy among our people is definitely a problem.
Is that better? |
Solomonjones
Veteran Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 51
Registered: 02-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 12:03 am: |
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ABM -
You are indeed an excellent debater. Deflect and refocus is a good strategy. But only if your opponent allows you to employ it. Let us both concede that it is ridiculous to expect that there has been an unbiased quantitative study done on the underground book economy in our community. Let us also concede that the numbers we both have cited in earlier posts may be at least a little skewed. As a final concession, let us not assume that those numbers prove anything beyond what they say. In other words, I agree with A_Womon when she says that your examples of "high school drop-out rate, adult illiteracy rates, poor standardized exam scores [and] lower college matriculation rates" can be attributed not only to a lack of reading, but to other factors as well. Among them, poverty, racism, and economics.
Now that we've thrown out all the numbers, we can for at least one moment, look to perhaps the most resonant statement I've seen on this thread. It was written by Lambd and it simply said, "the fact that there are forums such as this one is a testament to the fact that Blacks read more than most people think they do." When such an apparent truth is shared, there's only one way to respond: Amen.
ABM, do you know how many black book clubs there are? Thousands, and there are more forming every day. Do you know how many messages and reviews and chats have been posted about black books in black online literary forums? Without fear of contradiction, I'm going to say millions.
That can only mean one thing. Black folks is readin' brother. And they're reading more than any of us know. So rather than standing on the sidelines trying to DISprove it, why not get involved in trying to help us IMprove it? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1712
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 12:59 am: |
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A_womon,
Okay.
First of all, I don't know how we can have a productive discussion if we are going to belabor some issue about the validity of the data. Is it flawed? Yes. In all probability it is. As is virtually EVERYTHING else. That does not mean that it is wholly useless. Myriad practical, beneficial decisions are made on flawed statistical data. There would be virtually NO science/technology without it.
It's intellectual easy/convenient (and slightly lazy) to presume something's wrong without lifting a single finger to prove that.
And guess what Black people...believe it or not, not ALL White people are out to sabotage your sense of self-esteem. Some White people actually try to do their studies as fairly/completely as they can. And, amazingly, some of them do a better job than some of us might want to give them credit for.
So, as I suggested to Solomonjones, rather than decry the accuracy of the data, why not contribute to improving it? I find it interesting that everyone avoids even entertaining the notion of that, in spite of all of the alleged concern we express about the lies that others are telling about us.
Second, yes, these are no perfectly linear or unilateral relationships between the statistics I cite and reading/literacy. High school dropout rates are not simply a function of whether or not one can read. They are a function of an assortment of other events (e.g., family life, school safety, gang trouble, etc.)
Still, I don't know where YOU come from, but the kids I knew who could read graduated high school. And the kids who couldn't read DIDN'T. And we were all poor, fatherless, malnourished, confronted by gangs and assorted other pathologies that social scientists enjoy observing.
So if you are going to continue to question whether high school drop out, college matriculation rates, etc. are NOT a literacy/reading, then I suppose I really don't have much else to say to you about that.
Now: Regarding what one "SHOULD" read.
Well. Of course this is a relatively subjective concept. However, I think you can use one's relative position within the greater society to extrapolate some valid, if not full proof suppositions here with respect to reading.
Again, there are myriad studies that match one's ability to read at a certain level to one's station is life. So if Black people disproportionate lag in assorted socio-economic criteria, it is at least plausible to assume that inadequate literacy is in part a cause of our trouble.
Of course racism, poverty, fatherlessness, etc. are precursors, concomitants and corollaries of our literacy issues. And they probably will have to be addressed both inclusive/exclusive of the literacy issue. But the existences of those other phenomenon do not disqualify illiteracy as being a prime issue of why we struggle.
Because we live in an information intensive word. EVERYTHING happens via some mode of discourse, be it written or verbal. And one's inability to read a certain functional level severely inhibits one's ability to relate to much of the world.
I fundamentally disagree with you about why we can't/don't read as well and as much as we should.
Because I believe those who truly value/enjoy reading will become good readers (and possibly even writers). And those who don't value/enjoy reading likely won't be good readers no matter the efforts made by others. I don't think curriculum, the race of the teachers and peers, quality of books, computers, and condition of schools, matters diddly when one is hell-bent on wanting to read.
I consider myself to be living proof of that.
Let me know when you think that you have managed to "prove" something to me. And I promise to earnestly look for my "reflection". All I ask is that you do the same.
And simmer down, Honey Brown. Just yanking your chain with the "Solomonjones is, like, Oh my GOD!" talk. But it does slightly color how I view the true 'intent' of your siding with him. Because, although I admit that were I living under a different set of life rules I'd probably try to nail every chick that regularly posts on this site, that satyrical inclination wouldn't preclude my proffering views that differed from any of yours. In fact, if anything, it would likely heighten them. Hehe! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1713
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 03:09 am: |
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Lambd,
I never said that wholly valid/perfect conclusions can be extrapolated from those statistics. I simply find them to provide some support for the issue we are discussing. But I'll concede it is at least possible that I underestimate the quantity/quality of what Black people read. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1714
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 04:02 am: |
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Solomonjones,
Why can we NOT divine the scale of the underground book economy?
It seems to me that if one had the time, energy, resources and connections, she or he could coordinate a series of studies that might reveal some useful information here. Would their estimates be as accurate as, say, the time on the Doomsday Clock? Of course not. But I think we could get a lot closer to the truth than you think that we could.
For example, the place to start might be to contact most of nation's printers/publishers and inquire about all their book titles that have been authored by Blacks. Then ask them and/or contact their authors ask them the range of their annual units distributed and sold.
Will you be able to contact everyone? No. Will all of them cooperate? No. But if you get a sizable enough body of data, you can then begin to make some reasonable projections over the entire population of authors/books and also gather leads to other useful sources of info.
And regarding book turnover and reading quantity: We could interview people from some of those book clubs and online forums you mentioned to determine how frequently they trade books with others. And ask them how likely are they to READ the books they've received. And after receiving, consolidating and analyzing the results of, say, 2,000 such interviews covering all the major sections of the nation, one might be able to draw some decent conclusions.
And, again, these procedures would not yield perfect numbers. But they may prove persuasive enough to convince perspective book publishers, distributors and stores to grant more/better opportunities to Black authors/readers.
So. No my brothah. I do "deflect and refocus". I disagrees, then recommend.
I never said that there was an individual linear relationship between the quantity/quality of our reading and high school drop out rates. Few social phenomenon are as singularly/directly related. But I DO think that reading/literacy is a material, if not primary, influence on drop outs rates.
I agree with Lambd's comment that a forum such as this suggest that there is a solid/growing market for Black books. And I agree with you there are millions of messages concerning Black books in the cybernetic ether that support Lambd's view. So perhaps what I list above can be used to validate and "IMprove" upon your wisdom, Kemo Sabe. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 291
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 11:42 am: |
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Hello All,
ABM: "And guess what Black people...believe it or not, not ALL White people are out to sabotage your sense of self-esteem. Some White people actually try to do their studies as fairly/completely as they can. And, amazingly, some of them do a better job than some of us might want to give them credit for."
Really? *eyebrow raised* Answer me this ABM, how many of these studies have YOU participated in? *eyebrow sill raised* (Going straight black man) I'm 39 years old and I have never been asked for personal info for any of these "studies". The reason people do studies are to either prove or disprove a point of view or conclusion. I don't think "fairness" has anything to do with any of them.
ABM: "And regarding book turnover and reading quantity: We could interview people from some of those book clubs and online forums you mentioned to determine how frequently they trade books with others. And ask them how likely are they to READ the books they've received. And after receiving, consolidating and analyzing the results of, say, 2,000 such interviews covering all the major sections of the nation, one might be able to draw some decent conclusions.
And, again, these procedures would not yield perfect numbers. But they may prove persuasive enough to convince perspective book publishers, distributors and stores to grant more/better opportunities to Black authors/readers."
Well, how in the hell do you know what your study would yield if you haven't conducted it? It's an interesting premise. Why don't you run with it, ABM? *eyebrow raised* Or will you approach your study the same way you think the "fair" white people approaches theirs? The ball is in your court playa. I would like to see the numbers to your study.
Lambd: "Illiteracy among our people is certainly a problem, but it is a problem that can be addressed through the school systems, the church,
role models (such as Abm and Solomjones...not so much Thumper and ol' Sarge. They're a bit strange.)"
You callin' me and my Ol' Grayhead "a bit strange"? I'm not the one using cyberspace to flirt with and talk nasty to a butt-ugly, Boris Karloff-looking, "Hey I'm happy its Halloween" looking transvtite, like you are. *looking at Lambd over the rims of my glasses*
A_womon: "I don't agree, and Ive already stated why. But a lot of my friends and I read A LOT! and we talk about it and we share books and I don't believe this is limited to my circle of friends and I dont believe most black people buy books as a status symbol! I think that's baloney"
The point is the type of books you're reading, sugah. Ain't no need in getting defensive about it. It is what it is. No matter the genre, or the storyline, whether its fiction or non ficition, most of the books that we say are bestsellers don't require a lot of thinking. Not to be presumption, clue me in to your books. I bet dollar to donuts they are the ones I can read two of them completely through in one day and STILL put in my 8 hour work day.
Your mind is a muscle. In order for it to be strong, you have to work it. When you (the you is in generally, not specific) don't want to work your mind; it's either because you're hanidcapped and can't, or you're lazy triflin' and won't work it. So, are we, as a people, THINKERS?
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1722
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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Thumper,
I guess it depends on where you are and whatchu do.
But I have on occasion been queried (at the bookstore, via phone, Internet, etc.) about my reading tastes/habits. And I have on more than one occasional filled out and turned in a small survey form at a bookstore.
I'm just kinda prone to indulge such exchanges. I guess it is because I had myself worked at a marketing research firm to help pay for college.
I can't account for why the opportunities to share what YOU read have not been forthcoming. Considering what you do, that is an unfortunate oversight for the book industry.
But, AGAIN, perhaps there's a real/viable market of information that is waiting to be fulfilled.
I shouldn't continue to argue about the worth of studies.
But ain't too much anything going on up in this piece without a study of some sort having been previously performed. So you can offhandedly disparage them if you want to. But then you should also probably stop consuming the food/medicines, driving the cars, operating the businesses and the many other things that ensue from someone at some point having performed a study.
Their relative "fairness" be damn!
Actually, I think that I am via all this discussion convincing myself to perform such a study. Thanks for the encouragement! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1723
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 12:21 pm: |
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Well. That ol' rivarly didn't take too long to FLARE UP again!
JEEZ! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1724
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
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BTW: In case someone's keeping track, you can MOST DEFINITELY put me down for choosing Kola over Thumper to bear salivary homage to my Jim Browski. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1558
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 12:30 pm: |
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Oh-oh. Has the line been crossed, or what? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1560
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 01:29 pm: |
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Sorry I asked. |
Linda
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 76
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 04:28 pm: |
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Lambd
Whew wee...I plan to keep this brief, cuz some of the previous posts are really long gone away from the topic.
But in reference to your saying: "I think the fact that there are forums such as this one is a testament to the fact that Blacks read more than most people think they do."
Though I agree that there numerous sites and forums that certainly indicate that there is a large reading audience, I also find it just as fair to say that what the majority seems to be reading is basicly fiction. Now, keep in mind this is my own survey I conducted for myself, byself and have no informational statistics to draw from. So when the queston of are AA reading as much as they should I based my answer in part to the fact that it depends on what it is one should know about issues that deal with life on this planet. Reading fiction for escapism is just that for me....reading. I'm glad to see so many doing it, but as you stated, Illiteracy among our people is certainly a problem. So the limited ability to read does present a problem when needing to read wills, deeds, loan applications, getting lower interest rates, current issues, researching info on how to manage finances, getting access to information that can keep them up on life in general. It is no secret that a large amount of published books have of late been nothing more than basic english of which most 6th graders can read and understand. So perhaps the question should have read . . . Do AA's read enough of what they should?
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 650
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 07:09 pm: |
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Linda: understood. Thanks for clarifying for me. I was under the impression that we were talking about reading in general, not quality of what is being read. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 651
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 07:18 pm: |
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TD says: You callin' me and my Ol' Grayhead "a bit strange"? I'm not the one using cyberspace to flirt with and talk nasty to a butt-ugly, Boris Karloff-looking, "Hey I'm happy its Halloween" looking transvtite, like you are. *looking at Lambd over the rims of my glasses*
Ol' Sarge said that A_woman was pretty! Is he lying? I know he's not talking about my sweet Ceeneek like that cuz CeeCee will rip him a new one sho' nuff! Then I'll have to step in and cyber pimp slap his azz for goin' there. And I know he wouldn't dare go there with Moonsigns, cuz we all know he done already gave her the 'white ladies night free pass' to say and do whatever she want up in here. Goin' there with Kola is just going to erupt into another avalanche of insults that will take about three weeks for us to wade thru and I know he don't want that. So who is this insult directed at...besides me? Hunh Thumpdaddy? Wanna shed some light here puleeze?????? I know ole Sarge gonna accuse me of instigating, but Thump started it! He don't play fair, Sarge.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 652
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 07:19 pm: |
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Abm: How's your Steve Erkel impersonation? Can you say, "Did I do thaaaat?" |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 975
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 08:13 pm: |
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a_womon said:
And if in fact, you cannot equate the number of black books bought to the number read, how then can you attibute white books bought equals white books read?
Solomonjones said:
That can only mean one thing. Black folks is readin' brother. And they're reading more than any of us know. So rather than standing on the sidelines trying to DISprove it, why not get involved in trying to help us IMprove it?
Thumper or Linda, care to address these statements? And also again, I ask, who sets the standard for how much black folks SHOULD read, and also the content of what we SHOULD read? |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 293
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 11:09 pm: |
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Hello All,
Lambd: The question was directed at you because of your "bit strange" comment.
A_womon: Yes, black folks are reading and have been reading more than we were given credit for. So, I don't have an issue with what Solomon said. It's a point I will gladly concede. But to look a little deeper at what is being read, well...since we're here, we might as well look at it. Who sets the standards? I would think that we all do. But what is alarming to me is that the same low standards that we had, say 5 years ago, (the Tornleisha Tales and I was a ho but now I found Jesus books) has not changed. When I first voiced an objection to these types of books and notice that they were all predictable, having the same characters, etc, I was given the "you have to support our writers", "they will get better over time" speeches. The writing skills from the "bestseller" authors haven't improved with each successive book. As a matter of fact, many have gotten worse, in style, plot, etc. So, that rule out authors setting the standard.
Then we have the reading audience... Since the black reading audience is predominantly women, who have yet to venture out of the romance/sister girlfriend genre, the AA literature canon is becoming stagnant. Because the audience have not gotten tired, bored, or demanding better written books, the standard will remain low and stunted.
So, who should set the standard? I guess folks, like myself, that has an eye on the future of our literature and who isn't afraid to say "I deserve better", "I want more than this". As I see it right now, our good thing may be coming to an end before it had the chance to be all that it could be. I see glimpses of promise, but we all have to realize that anything worth having is worth fighting for, working towards, which includes not being afraid to work a brain cell or two every now and then. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1561
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 11:25 pm: |
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Before any reference is made to this let me say that I can't speak about white kids and I really am not interested in their shortcomings, but the problem I have with young blacks is that if it didn't happen yesterday, they dismiss it. They have no sense of history and are not knowledgeable about a broad scope of subjects. They may be readers but they are not well-read. They may not be dumb, but they are ignorant. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1562
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 11:30 pm: |
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Sure are glad you're on my side, Lambd. (And in my "world." Smooches.) |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 978
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 03:27 am: |
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Thumper,
Thanks for the response. One of the best books I read this summer was LEAVING CECIL STREET by Diane McKinney Whetstone. I could hardly put the book down for trying to figure out,what was going to become of Neet and if she would recover from her trauma. And what made Neet's mother the way she was, and if my suspicions were correct about who the crazy lady living in the basement eating the cat's food while she was quietly dying was related to. I loved the way it all came together at the end and how the author didn't "telegraph" the ending. I wasn't disappointed in the least with the ending and can't wait to read more books by this author.
So thumper, as I've told you in the past, street fiction is not all that I read. I'm an avid reader, and when I have time, I read whatever happens to catch my attention, be it fiction or non fiction. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 654
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 03:01 pm: |
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Thumper are you going to spill the name of the "butt-ugly, Boris Karloff-looking, "Hey I'm happy its Halloween" looking transvestite" or not. I don't have an idea who this person could be since I've flirted with everyone on the board. (including Yukio who actually turned out to be a man...I think). Yukio doesn't look like Boris Karloff, does he? And I think Moonppies is female, isn't she? She only said she was white. She never said she was a man or a transvestite. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 294
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 03:19 pm: |
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Hello All,
Lambd: You mean to tell me that you have no idea who I'm talking about? *eyebrow raised* Well, obviously in this case being blind and ignorant is indeed bliss. Since I'm not out to ruin your happiness, I think its best to let you stay in your present state of glee. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1566
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2004 - 03:40 pm: |
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Obviously Lambd didn't see the now-deleted reponse to your description, Thumper. Judging from that ballistic retort, someone knew who you were talking about. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 297
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 08:50 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: Lambd know it too. He calls himself trying to back me into a corner.
I have to apologize to the men involved for that comment though. I was being bad. All I can say in my defense is that it (my comment) was just sitting their, like a ripe strawberry, begging me to pick it. I'm sorry for my slip. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 659
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, October 18, 2004 - 09:45 pm: |
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Hahahaha! Thumpdaddy you are too too much! I aint messin' wit you no more...And CeeCee! I am very surprised at YOU! I know that Boones Farm you drinking aint let you loose a step. I think you just trying to let me know you got my back as always. Preciate it, Ceetheart. But TD is on to me. |
Solomonjones
Veteran Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 52
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 10:52 am: |
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Y'all got issues . . . |
Philly_bbw
Regular Poster
Username: Philly_bbw
Post Number: 26
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, October 19, 2004 - 03:20 pm: |
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Could they be going bankrupt over at Black Print Publishing? Allegedly, they are passing out rubber checks, and not returning phone calls. Sources say that several writers that have been recently signed to them have tried to cash their advance checks or have deposited checks into their accounts, and they were returned because of Insufficient Funds. Lawd...what is going on in the world of Black Publishing???? Maybe they teamed up with Triple Crown... |
Njanene
Newbie Poster
Username: Njanene
Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 10:38 pm: |
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Philly,
Your comments speaks to another thread I wrote a comment for, the slowing sales of hip-hop fiction. However, I believe that Triple Crown is one of the publishers that is still doing pretty well (or maybe that is what you are saying, too).
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