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Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 35
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 08:48 pm: | 
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There are a lot of publishers who have a minimum page count or minimum word count before a manuscript can be submitted by an author. However, I think this causes a lot of authors to stretch out a manuscript with lots of fluff that doesn't necessarily add to the quality of the work. How do you feel about publishers who require minimum page counts? Does it help the reader get more for the money? Do you hesitate to grab a fictional tale that's 200 pages versus one that's over 300? Does the minimum page count ruin the quality of the work? |
Bimsha
Newbie Poster
Username: Bimsha
Post Number: 22
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 08:34 am: |
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Yes, I understand that a minimum page count is written into a contract - but that's just to make sure an author doesnt submit a fifty page ms and call it a book. However, a good editor will not demand more than what the story requires. Look at Sula (TM) The Color Purple (AW) both books were less than two hundred pages and I don't believe the reader felt slighted at all. I'm sure that there are those editors/houses that want three hundred or more pages - this sort of justifies the $23 - $25 cost of a hard cover book - a teh reader may feel he or she is getting more for his or her money - until the read the book and find that the story could have been told in 225 pages and not the staggering 300 to 400 pages most of which was "filler" that hindered the story rather than helped to move it forward.
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 304
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:52 am: |
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Emanuel:
The minimum page count meets a lot of their publishing requirements (ie at times there are a certain number of pages that must be included in a book that are standard and also to make publishing it commercially viable--people are reluctant to pay $25.00 for a hardback book that is 100 pages long or less--iot does happen but in general they are looking for a certain number of pages--ie bang for the buck), and it also meets the standard word count defintions about what constitutes a certain work, roughly:
Short story--to 7,000 words
novelet--7-14,000 words
novella--14-40,000 words
novel--40,000 words and over
I tend to count pages in order to estimate how many words are in the manuscript--it is a rare one coming in under 160 pages, 240-300 is more common, the blockbuster is often in the 400-500 range--again I would suspect pricing has a lot to do with in, and I would hazard to guess that most writers in fact wind up having to cut their manuscripts back to the minimum to get rid of the fluff |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 08:43 pm: |
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Hello All,
Emanuel: Looking at your question from another point of view, why are these authors that have a problem meeting the word count having a time admitting that they did not write a novel that what they have written is a short story or a novella? I agree that putting in words to meet the minimum count is not keeping the integrity of the story intact. What kind of author would do this? I have read many many books where it was painfully obvious that the authors added words to meet a word count. So, wouldn't it be better if an author not to submit a manuscript that doesn't meet the novel word count that he keeps it to himself until he has enough of these manuscripts to put out a short story collection or submit it the manuscript for inclusion to anthologies rather than trying to make it something it is not? |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 36
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:41 pm: |
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Thumper,
To be honest, I don't believe a lot of new authors know the difference between a novel and a novella. They just know that they've written a book or a manuscript. I recently read a positive review of a novella (Rape: A Love Story) in the local paper in Cleveland, which is a rarity. But at least it got noticed.
With self-publishing, POD, vanity publishing and other new ways of getting published, it has become easier for authors to get novellas published. This could be a good thing if the pricing isn't overinflated. Otherwise, it would be better for authors to include the stories in anthologies or a book of novellas instead of making it one book, especially novels.
Chris,
I've seen those word counts fluctuate in regards to novels. Still, sometimes 40-50,000 words is not enough for many publishers, even though the definition makes it a true novel. I guess it depends on whose definition you're looking at. I've seen some minimums start at 75,000. Soho Press's (The Darkest Child) minimum is 60,000.
The reason I asked the question is because I've read so many books where the fluff (not necessarily essential to the story) ends up hurting the book. This is especially true if it's in the beginning of the book. I just finished reading a novel that I found incredibly boring until way into the second half of the book. I suspect this is because of a minimum word count the publisher required. It got good, but way too late. Now how many readers are willing to give a book a chance after reading halfway through it and not liking it? |
Kc_trudiva
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 84
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 08:23 am: |
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emanuel: from yet another angle, i'll counter and say that sometimes encouraging more pages can indeed help an author "develop" a story more. i, too, have read some books that were "okay" reads but could have been "better" had they incorporated more detail, descriptions for that particular subject (ie., added words thus increasing their word count).
i love colorful descriptions and details that take me into a story. not choppy stuff that seems sort of thrown in. so i guess it's about knowing what's fluff and what's adding to the story. like what thumper says, it would be better for the "author to keep it to himself until he has enough..." |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 308
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:22 am: |
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Emanuel:
If the writer came up with fluff it could have been the editor's fault, but I see no guarentee that a writer who wrote 40,000 words out of 80,000 of fluff would not write 20,000 out of 40, etc.
Again, so a writer says, "I can do 20,000 words (50-70 pages) of Da Bomb, but after that yer on your own. What. The Publisher is supposed to sell 50 pages for 25 bucks? This guy just ain't a novel writer is all--you got writers like that--he or she should concentrate on short stories and articles (and then when they get a book's worth put out a complilation).
You got sprinters and you got long distance runners. You got poets, you got short story writers, you got novelists.
There have been situations where writers have padded books--they haven't had anything to say.
Have you known any writers who confessed that they padded their work with fluff to meet minimum word requirements? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 633
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:34 pm: |
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As someone who has written a 180-page self-published novel(?), I flattered myself into thinking my style was "minimalist." Having Toni Morrison in mind, to me, good things come in small packages. However, some people didn't appreciate my book's abbreviation. They thought my characters needed to be given more ink and my plot more specifics. But as I tell everyone, I wrote the kind of fiction I like to read.Unless the author is an exceptionally good writer, I don't like long-drawn out novels full of superfluous filler and redundant details. I like to reach my own conclusions and use my own imagination. In this fast-paced world, where people tend to seek instant gratification, I often thought that a new "compact" genre should be created for people who want a quick fix - short, fast-paced books that get right to the meat of things, something not nessarily true of novellas. (Of course this is my rationale for being too lazy to consider a re-writing my book. LOL) |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 01:14 pm: |
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Your book doesn't need re-writing. I am one of those people who can appreciate reading a fast-paced book. You gave me just enough to know the characters without overdoing it. Once I got to know the characters I could dive into the book, read it through and then put it down. Completed and my thirst was quenched. I would much rather read and enjoy a well-written 180-page novel, than a novel that takes me three days to get to the freakin' plot. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 638
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 01:35 pm: |
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Thanks, Lambd. Your approval carries a lot of weight with me. Your weight on me would probably earn my approval, too. Oooooh, yes! |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 169
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 07:59 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: Watch the flirting please. *eyebrow raised*
All: I don't believe anyone has a problem with a fast paced novel. But to me, a fast paced novel is usually between 200-300 pages and it takes me only a few hours to read it from cover to cover. Just because a novel doesn't have a lot of pages does not mean that it will be a fast paced novel. This can only be achieved by a good author who knows what he or she is doing. The last really fast paced novel that I read was The Last King by Nichelle Tramble, which took me a day to read. The fastest novel that I have ever read goes to Camilla's Roses by Bernice McFadden and that one took me almost 3 hours to read. Both of these novels are 200+ pages. So, it's not the page number that counts.
kc_trudiva made a very good point about the word count improving, fleshing out a story. I can see that. I just don't know any published author who will cop to being in that predictament, but I can see some truth in it. I know I've read a few books that could have benefitted by having the character's fleshed out. But, I usually blame the author for that shortcoming and not the editor, for I don't believe the author has the skill or know how to flesh out the characters. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 642
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:50 pm: |
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I perhaps should've made a distinction between a book that is a "fast-read" and a book that is "fast-paced" because a book doesn't have to be short to be fast-paced. And a "fast-read" is simply a book whose author says in 200 pages what another author with a different style might take 300 pages to say. Then, we have to deal with fast readers. Everbody can't read a 300+ page book in a couple of hours. So, for people who don't have a lot of time, reading a shorter book fulfills them. It also depends on what your expectations are when you read a book. No denying many readers want to read a book where everything is explained and described. Others readers are content to simply read between the lines. We've also previously concluded that people read for different reasons. They want to be entertained, they want to be stimulated, they want to elightened, and they want to be provided with escapist fare. Now, I am finding out that there are also people who have no problem with getting all of these things in a book whose style is concise. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 364
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 01:06 pm: |
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The issue has more to do with what is required to efficiently tell a clear, complete, enlightening and entertaining story than it does about some arbitrary word/page count per se. Word/page counts are the time-honored product of 3 criteria: 1) Maintenance of some effective/popular storytelling apparatus, 2) The educational level of the reader and 3) market to which a book is being sold.
Though books can greatly differ in subject matter, POV, style, theme, etc., most novels share certain primary scheme/traits. A good novel will provide the scheme/traits that allow a reader to understand/appreciate the message/meaning the author attempts to convey.
Also, most of us share a common or baseline educational stratum upon which we all can comfortably/effectively communicate. I have read that for Americans that a stratum is at the 6 - 7th reading/writing grade level (which can at times inhibit what/how an author writes).
And most novels are marketed for mass consumption (and, thus, maximum profitability). Therefore, they must offer subject matter that might engage many if not most potential readers.
The storytelling formula, the education of the reader and the market to which a book is being sold will all impose upon a book certain minimum requirements that astute editors/publishers have learned to associate with certain word/page counts.
Of course adjustments can be made based on adjustments to any of those three criteria. If, for example, it is believed the reader might tolerate having certain issues/questions left unanswered (perhaps in anticipation of a sequel(prequel) - which eschews the tidy wrap-up scheme that most novels seem to observe - perhaps book length can be abridged. (Conversely, if the readers are "junkies" for the minutiae of a story, perhaps the text is lengthened.)
If the average novel reader has a higher grade of vocabulary perhaps the author can greatly consolidate the text. Then, an author might then say of a beautiful woman in the place of "Her lips were a vivid read."(6 words) that "Her lips were carmine."(4 words). Similar consolidation throughout a book would reduce it from 300 to 200 pages.
And if the reader is presumed to have broad, highly evolved and detailed knowledge of a novel’s subject matter and/or the book is geared to a very select, specialized reader, the author can reduce word/page count. If, for example, doctor and fame author Michael Crichton, MD had written "Coma" and/or "ER" for fellow physicians instead of for bored suburban housewives, he probably could have told the same stories with less than 1/2 the text.
Now, I imagine the optimum word/page count for a novel is evolving. Tolstoy’s +1,000 page "War and Peace" and Homer’s +800 page "The Iliad" were written during a place/time when the Novel was a primary form of discourse/entertainment. We now, however, have many other forms of D/E, which of course limit how much time one will dedicate to recreational reading. So, though I have not researched this, it would not surprise me to learn that the word/page count of the average novel has decreased.
PS: It is ironic and instructive that books written by Toni Morrison, arguably America's greatest living novelist, normally do not exceed +200 pages. Perhaps it is because she has learned to says more within a single sentence than her peers can say on an entire page. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 312
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 01:39 pm: |
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Abm:
The Iliad is a poem, not a novel. The original Homer (If there was one, some scholars think that this name is given to the particular style of poem) likely committed it to memory and recited it. It was written down some years later by persons unknown.
You are correct that even in that form it was a primary form of entertainment, but few people would experience it as we read a novel, reading it--despite what we think about Ancient Greece relatively few people could read at that time. someone would recite it to an assembly |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 368
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 02:11 pm: |
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Chris,
I agree that the Iliad is by its structure rightly classified as a poem (like John Milton's about Satan/Man's epic fall from grace "Paradise Lost"). But it is in 'substance' a novel in that it tells a vast story involving varied characters, backgrounds, subplots, climaxes, etc.
But thanks for the correction. |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 38
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 09:31 pm: |
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As a reviewer, I generally try to stay away from novels that are beyond 400 pages. It's not that I have short attention span but rather limited time. I read from 4-6 books a month for review. If I took on a book larger than 400 pages, I'd end up reviewing one book per month. Plus my own writing, a day job, and actually having a life takes a big slice outta my life. Luckily, I get to pick and choose the books I want to review rather than having one assigned to me. Since I don't pay for the books, price is not an issue. But I'm sure it is for readers and publishers. |
Akaivyleaf
Veteran Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 71
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 08:27 am: |
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I guess I don't necessarily look at word count or page length when I pick up a book to read or review. I agree with the assessment that word count minimums can inflate a story unnecessarily because if you don't know how to develop characters and plots adding more words isn't going to accomplish that goal.
I look for novels (I think we're talking about them mostly because they can become the most weighted with senseless words) that capture me within the first 50 pages. If the novel can't accomplish this, then I'm in for a long read no matter if the book is only 200 pages. I can read 50 pages in about 40 minutes so a 200 page book I could finish with comprehension and retention in about 3 hours but it has to interest me, something has to jump off fairly quickly.
For example, I struggled with Minion because the entire book was way too much detail for me. Small by my standards of page count, but overkill in the descriptions of characters. I vowed never to pick up another book in the series. But after being away from it for a while, I did pick up The Awakening and realized that all of the data collected in Minion made The Awakening a better story. Now page count is out of hand in The Hunted but I am eager to read it, because the series has progressed.
I think that authors should concentrate on their story first and foremost and worry about word count minimums/page count after they have accomplished the goal of telling a story. If publishers dictate that X number of words constitute a novel or a novella and that is where their story lies, they should run with it where it is. |
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