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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 491
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 12:05 pm: | 
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What are the characteristics of "good writing" and "literary fiction"?
I know some of us have discussed this before, but it seems necessary to answer these questions at a moment when black literature, within and without, has received press, both positive and negative, concerning the quality and integrity of the our literature.
In addition, let me ask another related question, again something that has been discussed, here, elsewhere in an earlier thread months ago, What are the idiomatic attributes of African American writing?
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Bimsha
Newbie Poster
Username: Bimsha
Post Number: 21
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 04:07 pm: |
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Well, I think the differences can be found in the tone and the rhythem - it's like asking what is the difference between "oral story telling" and "Spoken Word" each verbally tells a story or a part of a story - but the "spoken word" (poetry) is more like a song. For me, that's where the difference lie between a good written story and a literary one. The literary story is like a song - there a beats and clefs and all sorts of musical expressions. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 496
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 07:24 pm: |
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hhhmmmm....bimsha. I'm not sure if I understand your analogy. I believe that oral story telling is musical, especially rhythmic, though not necessarily like a "song." Yet, much of the musical qualities of the "spoken word" is derivative from the oral tradition, which is distinct from the european rendition of poetry reading...this musical quality that you're talking about is also apparent the particular delivery of our pastors, preachers. Malcolm, King, Farakhan, Jackson, Cornel West, Dyson, and others display this particular form.
literary=song?
good writing=?
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 301
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 10:44 am: |
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Yukio:
By "good writing" and "literary fiction" I assume you are equating the two. I would say they may not necessarily be the same thing. I would say that they would depend upon who is doing the labelling, among other things.
I would hold that the Literary Establishment, the Powerbrokers and gatekeepers, the tastemakers and the Academics would hold that "good writing" or "literary fiction" is anything that is recognized as part of the accepted literary canon of classics. Consult Harold Bloom for the list of said works. Understand that, the closer one gets to the present time the more disagreement there will be--ie, everyone will agree that The Epic of Gilgamesh and The Iliad belong on there. There is a great body of agreement on most Writers since World War II, but there has been debate over writers one would think belong there, such as Ginsberg, Kerouac, Chester Himes, Alex Haley, Maya Angelou, Norman Mailer, Truman Capote just to name a few.
Now, suppose you are about to sit down to write the Next Great American Novel, and you are wondering how you should proceed in order to make the cut. These days it helps to have gone through an MFA program or taught somewhere. Credentials do count.
It will help to get some of those who are recognized by most as members of the canon, or who are teaching somewhere or who have produced prestigious works, to pronounce your work a masterpiece.
Authors like Tony Morrison, Robert Pinsky, Norman Mailer, etc. or respected reviews like Michiko Kakutani( the literary proctologist) to pronounce you the greatest thing since sliced bread. This you might call the Melville treatment--Moby Dick was thought of as garbage until the 1920's when all these heavyweights started pronouncing it a masterpiece. It was a failure in its own time.
It will help for your work to be picked up by a prestigious agent and a prestigious publishing house that publishes the classics, and also to have a famous editor there work on it.
It will help if you live in New York or Paris or London or whatever the literary mecca is today.
Ain't got none o' dat? It will help if you adopt as your stylistic model Henry James or James Joyce (and you make repeated references to them). Your work should feature long, dense paragraphs, many references to the classics--Greek poems and plays, and to writers who are members of the canon--Kafka, Balzac, Dostoevsky are in good, Hemingway, Faulkner, Pound, Eliot acceptable. Morrison, DuBois, Ellison, Wideman and the like are pushing it.
Don't get the whiff of Afrosheen from a lot of my choices or styles? Do I have to spell it out for you? Ain't you hip to The Known World? Aiight den!
What are the idiomatic attributes of African American writing? Call and response, signifying, the Blues, Spirituals, references to Africa and African American sources, the Black sermon, Sankofa, gumbo, hoodoo, jazz, street jive and vernacular, a few. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 500
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 11:36 am: |
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chrishayden: thanks for the response. No. I'm not equating the two. I'm trying to open a discussion, here. One that we've had before in passing, but I'm not quite sure if we've flat out asked the question (perhaps?).
The motivation is the recent spat on another thread concerning the BEA and the socalled decline of good writers, the qualitiy of black fiction. So, I'm asking, since many are complaining and often say:. blah, blah, blah... is bad writing, prose staid, etc...; I prefer literary fiction, not commericial fiction; these authors are not writers, etc... What would helps us understand the substance of these statements is, HOw do we know "good writing" and "literary fiction" when we see it? What is craft? etc...those substantive questions that we may nick pick about while we're reading.
Finally, I'm not at all interested in what the socalled Literary establishment labels, recognizes, and characterizes as literary nor how one goes about being labeled as such.
The idiomatic attributes....explain some, if you will, for those of us who don't. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 502
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 01:41 pm: |
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For those who have read, the KNown World, for example(or any work one choose to call literary), how is it "literary" and another book of your pick not "literary"?
In this case, rather than explain through analogy focus specifically on the text, the actual writing... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 619
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 02:09 pm: |
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I assure you that I read your post, Chris, and it mesmerized me. I'd say - just off hand - that you are a good writer if for no other reason than that you possess a broad base of knowledge and are able to integrate and ingratiate it into your prose/text without sounding pedantic. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 164
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 02:14 pm: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: Ok, I'll try to answer your question. As Chris stated "good writing" and "literary fiction" are not necessarily the same thing. To me, good writing is just that good writing. Good writing is writing where the story make sense. The story has a sense of timing or order to it. Whether the story is being told in chronological order or backwards (starting with the conclusion and ending with the beginnng of the story) or any number of technique that the author chooses to frame his story in. The characters are developed, and even though I may disagree with a characters actions or reactions, even I can determine whether the actions were true to the character's personality, etc. Now "good writing" is really the literary form to an good oral storyteller. It has been my experience that an author of good writing is also a good oral storyteller. These two abilities go hand in hand.
Bimsha was correct when she defined literary fiction. There are very much an element of poetry, rhythym, and tone in literary fiction. Yes, it is as lyrical and melodic as music and really good literary fiction will establish this to enhance a story that stimulates the mind and the ear. Let's take Faulkner as an example, because I love Faulkner *sticking out my tongue at Chris*. In the Sound and Fury, he write that famous chapter for Benjy, (I could be mistaken) "I am a fish." Well, that line, that chapter still has debates raging as to what it means. Toni Morrison has written lines which can inspire folks to argue about its interpretation. Because like poetry, different folks will come up with different meaning for the same group of words is saying. That's literary fiction to me.
Now in your previous post you ask some very valid questions: "How do we know "good writing" and "literary fiction" when we see it? What is craft?"
Well, I know my answer will seem that I'm answering your question with a riddle of an answer but, we can only recognize good writing and/or literary fiction by reading good writing and literary fiction. I can only speak for myself, but I was taught good writing by my English teachers who made me read good books/short stories. I'm sure we were all taught good writing the same way. The question that needs to be asked is when do our APPRECIATION of good writing or literary fiction kick in. For some of us that appreciation was caught on very early. Others, like me, it took a while. Lastly, some of us never gets it. But the trick to the matter is do we have that solid English foundation to gain the ability to appreciate good writing or literary fiction.
This is where our young people are having trouble. It has now become an acceptable societal standard to praise mediocrisy, or use that old worn out stand by "It's all subjective". That's a load of crap! It's not subjective when one 30 year old is reading at a 6 grade level and the other is reading at a 12 grade level. It's not subjective when an author can not substain a narrators voice throughout a story. It's more than correct grammar and punctuation because every computer I know of has a built in spell/grammar check on it, and besides that that what's editors are for. It's more than using the same damn story line for every book that is being written, for example, how many of you know that essentially the books Triple Take, Entangled and Dollar Bill all have the same damn storyline, action, plot, etc, written in the same tired voice and elements. Give me a break. I'm amazed that a copyright infringement war hasn't broken out yet. I've said my uncle's philosophy before, I'll say it again, In order to be a good writer, you have to be a good reader. It's like cooking or baking. I can bake a cake using inferior ingredients and Linda can bake a cake using top of the line ingredients. We both have the same compentency level and are using the same recipe, tools etc. Now, I ask, who's going to have the better tasting cake? The same can be said about authors. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 621
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 03:02 pm: |
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Thumper and Chris are hard acts to follow because their excellent analyses pretty much say it all. I would simply observe that literary writing seems to have a timelessness, and it is just as compelling today as it was yesterday and will be tomorrow. I'd also agree with them when they imply that all literary writing is good, but all good writing is not literary. Also, I think we can find correlations in the others arts. If we compare classical music - be it operatic, symphonic, jazz, or blues with top 40 hits - some of which are good songs, the difference will be that the classics have a certain profoundness, a certain beauty, - a kind of spiritual dimension which sustains the soul rather than entertains the mind. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 505
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 03:10 pm: |
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posters: Lets define and refine these terms, phrases,etc...whether or not you're one of whose complained about the quality of contemporary black fiction.
Cynique: your turn! no slight to your kudos to chris..lol!
ChrisHayden: "give me sum mo!" busta rhyme...u mention names, but you don't address content. BTW, you've previously, done what i'm asking here in your short story thread; U asked/told cynique to read a few short stories...your brief analysis there is what i request...with a little cut and paste, as well as rewording to specifically address this particular thread, you would certainly help us out. Thank You in advance!
thumper: I like; I like. Your comments on "good writing" addresses narratology and character development... Ok, so what is "tone," element of poetry(lyrical prose?) and "rhythm" in fiction? Explain for us, if not you someone.
Please posters lets not get into appreciation, subjectivity, etc....this is quite another matter, though related.
My question--HOw do we know "good writing" and "literary fiction" when we see it? What is craft? etc...those substantive questions that we may nick pick about while we're reading--was placed in the context of the earlier sentences, which pertained to stating preferences, ie literary fiction, and criticism, ie "this is poor, laden prose," without defining what exactly they mean by "literary fiction" and "good writing."
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 622
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 03:20 pm: |
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Yukio, the questions you ask are hard to answer, so I will once again advance an opinion. You read good writing; you experience literary prose. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 506
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 03:31 pm: |
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Ok...cynique, you beat me to the punch...sorry and thank u!
Cynique emphasizes depth and aesthetics that is timeless...Ok, cynique, explain what you mean by "the classics have a certain profoundness, a certain beauty, - a kind of spiritual dimension which sustains the soul rather than entertains the mind." |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 623
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 04:01 pm: |
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Good writing very often provides instant gratification. Or - it adeptly advances a story line or expertly clarifies an issue. Literary writing is what I experienced when for, instance,I read Jean Toomer's "Cane" or Toni Morrison's "Song of Solomon." The imagery and storytelling made me a spectator rather than a reader; the style was organic and there was lyricism and pace to the writing. This to me is what is good literature is about. Of course, other standards apply, those having to do with the structural techniques that good prose should adhere to. There should also be an lack of triteness. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 507
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 04:37 pm: |
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cynique: I love when u say, "The imagery and storytelling made me a spectator rather than a reader."....
Here is the imagery of john edgar wideman:
"He stood staring through a tall window at the last days of November. The trees were barren women starved for love and they'd stripped off all their clothes, but nobody cared. And not of them gave a fuck about him, sifting among them, weightles and naked, knowing just as well as they did, no hands would come touch them, warm them, pick leaves off the frozen ground and stick them back in place."
Fever
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 165
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 05:17 pm: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: Here's an example of literary writing that I hope will illustrate what I mean by tone and rhythm. First read it with your eyes, then read it aloud adhering to the rules of punctuation, for example, when there is a coma--pause. By doing this will you be able to HEAR and then hopefully FEEL the melody of the words because many authors use punctuation to establish the melody of their words very much like a composer uses quarter, whole and half notes in music.
The following paragraph is from May's CWMYB selection The Cotillion by John Oliver Killens:
"She--the girl--Yoruba closed her eyes, as she held onto the subway strap, closed her large eyes, dark and wide ones, and she could hear the Duke of Ellington's immortal music, feel it pouring through her senses like cascades of clear branch water, oooweee! Hear it, feel it, in all its varied and varying movements, in a stormy crescendo now, surging ever onward, upward, swelling, gathering its forces as it went, sweeping all and everything before it, even as the train itself went clackety--clack, slapping the rails with its own peculiar Afro rhythm, amassing speed and sound and frenzy, as it moved toward its conclusion. Destination Harlem. It was the Soul Train. Dig it, mother--brother--sister--"
See, this is what I'm talking about it. Do it for yourself and see.
I agree with Cynique as well. Her selections of Cane and Song of Solomon were on point. She is right, there is a timeliness to good writing, especially literary writing that can not be determined until at least 25 years has passed after its initial publication. It has to bring something out, make you feel something, recognize some truths, soulfulness, that commercial fiction can not, does not. For instance, lets take Richard Wright's Native Son for example. The novel was written in what 1949, 1950. Are people still able to read, interpret, comprehend the life of Bigger Thomas some 55 years after Wright introduced him to the world. Is the novel readable to an audience that wasn't even born at the time of its initial publication? Does the novel speak of true human qualities that is recognizable? And most importantly what voice or manner is used to drive these points home?
Cynique, aptly, wonderfully brought up Cane by Jean Toomer. In my opinion Cane was the best book written in the 20th century. The novel is barely 100 pages long, and yet, it is so full that I read it three times and still haven't been able to pick up all of the nuisances that Toomer gracefully put down. Cane is literary fiction at its absolutely best. Hemingway, Faulkner, Morrison, Fitzgerald, Wright, Ellison, all of their works stands in Cane's shadow.
Yukio: Since you're playing moderator on this thread, do tell, give us your description of literary fiction with examples and titles. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 166
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 05:20 pm: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: I had posted before I saw your response to Cynique using a line from John Edgar Wideman. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 508
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 07:43 pm: |
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thumper: Hmmm...i agree with all of the posters. I think a good writer has a competent command of basic literary elements: emplotment, tone, mood, theme, style, character development, structure, and narrative. Of course, these elements are all interdependent.
Now, the literary writer should have strong, not competent, command of all of these. And the master literary writer will be excellent in a few or all. There are of course, a hierarchy among literary artists.
These literary artists will often break the rules in such a way to make their fiction more effective; their treatment of the topic is profound and moving, so that theme is timeless and compelling as cynique states; their prose is so moving and lyrical that u can almost hear it...their metaphors and similes, etc.. tell another story that complicates and even clarifies the narrative. In other words, these folk are artist...since they have a strong command of the basic literary elements they manipulate them in such a way as to all of theses elements play their own part in the rendering of the story.
John Edgar Wideman is a stylist: his plot is better than most, but it is his style that we marvel--lyrical prose, vivid imagery, crazy use of metaphor, simile, personification, etc...as well as his themes...symbols and narrative in Reuben the "lawyer."
toni morrison: it is her plot, subplots, style...delicate, precise prose...theme--mother murders her children to save them---how deep can u get? What about her narrative and structure in song of solomon...the motif/theme of flight
Percival Everett: i also like his prose though that it is not what he is known for...his versatility...he is an intellect...so he works with structure, themes, satire, tragedy...etc....Ismael Reed does similarly....
Have a heart and give A_womon some love!
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 509
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 08:24 pm: |
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Let me also add, as chrishayden has, that literary artists are usually the product of a tradition, or several, which shows through their writing...this is often recognizable through mentioning other writers and more importantly treating similar themes and even engaging the canon through providing an alternative rendering of a similar theme....
If one takes a look at Conversations with toni morrison or john edgar wideman, both talk about different themes, topics, etc...that they engage differently than those within the western and african diasporic canons...toni morrison, for example, talks about how she's not interested in the white community directly, but the black community and their interior lives, etc...this is different from wright, ellison, etc...who address racism in relationship to the black community, so this is more of a race relations' motif...
For example...we have conrad's heart of darkness, but there is also Zakes Mda's The heart of redness. Now, i have yet to read it; but it is an african fiction writer and playwright, whose topics are often political, so I'm sure conrad's themes will be engaged. |
Emanuel
Regular Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 34
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 08:41 pm: |
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I look for a few things when I'm reading for review (this mostly applies to fiction and some descriptive non-fiction as well):
1) Imagery. Does the author paint the picture vividly? Does the writing cause me to recall all of my five senses? What did it smell like? What did it feel like? And so on. I want to feel like I was there. I think Hemingway and Ellison were masters at this.
2) Originality. Does the author tell the same old dry story that I read a few months ago? Or is it unique or told from a perspective I would have not imagined.
3) Plausibility. I want my fiction to seem real. Could this happen in real life, is a question I tend to ask. Do the characters seem real? Is the plot worthwile?
4) Style. Does the author have a way with words? Or does the story read like a high school book report. I think an author should have a love of the language.
Those are the main things I look for in fiction.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 624
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 09:47 pm: |
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book girl: thanks for the comic relief. clever stuff. LOL |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 625
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 10:30 pm: |
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Wednesday many of his fans are gathering all over the world to celebrate the 100th anniversary of the date on which "Ulysses" by James Joyce took place. This book which was published in 1922 is supposed to be the epitome of literary fiction, yet many people have a hard time getting through it. The style has been described as smooth and flowing, but following the story-line is said to require patience and focus. The action all takes place on one day, June 16, 1904, in Dublin, Ireland, and the narrative is rife with retrospection and rumination, - moving back and forth between the past and the present. Moral of this story: literary fiction can also be challenging. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 510
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 10:43 pm: |
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hahahahahaha....its called stream of consciousness...suppose to characterize the simultaneous experiencing of the conscience and subconscience...faulkner does similarly, as well as john e. wideman |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 302
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 10:53 am: |
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Cynique:
Why, thanky m'am.
Yukio:
You continue to demand some hard factual definiton of what is in effect a value judgement. Writing is not running, wherein the winner of the race is obviously the one who has crossed the finish line first. It is not a boxing match, where the winner scores the most points or knockdowns or wins by knockout.
It is a value judgment. Thus writers who, in their time were considered trashy, for instance Poe, Lovecraft, Dashiell Hammett, are today considered artists.
You continue to resist the notion that good literature is going to always be what people SAY it is--and that the canon of such will consist of those that the greatest number of people agree on--in his day F. Scott Fitzgerald was considered a great writer, now, except for Gatsby, his reputation has faded. Pearl S. Buck won a Nobel Prize for Literature. How many of her books are taught today? How many have you read?
How do you recognize good writing. It depends on the genre, also. You know it when you see it and like it. The Wideman sentence would appear ridiculous to the readers of detective fiction--so does Walter Moseley stink? |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 140
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 11:30 am: |
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Chrishayden, in my opinion is on point this time.
You all push me to this mind-numbing question:
Is a craftsman considered an artist and vice versa?
Also, isn't it important to remember who is considering the difference?
I think beauty, in literature and in art, is in the eye of the beholder. One man's trash is another man's treasure, and so on. We have every right to decide what makes a good writer, and at the same time no right at all....Can you expand your brain enough to make sense out of that?...At any rate, what Chrishatin' said about value judgement is correct...I don't know if me agreeing with him adds or takes away from his argument. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 626
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 11:53 am: |
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Somebody once, said: "I don't know art, but I know what I like." I have mixed emotions about this subject. Do we defer to opinion, or do we adhere to age-old standards? To put this in another perspective, I could say that I don't like Kobe Bryant's personality, so can I then declare that he's a bad basketball player? Who can say. But I think we all agree that writing which stands the test of time is - extraordinary. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 142
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 12:00 pm: |
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Agreed.
However, what's the deal with Kobe's personality? I don't know him other than how he appears during interviews. So far he seems pretty ordinary. He has an inflated ego when it comes to basketball, but that's pretty much par for the course among professional athletes. Do you not like his personality because of something I haven't seen yet? What exactly is he accused of again, is it rape, or something else? |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 143
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 12:04 pm: |
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I have mixed emotions about what good writing is because I happen to prefer Goines over Shakespeare any day of the week. I would stick my hand in the embers of a communist book burning rally to save a Goines novel. Can't say that I'd do the same for a first edition Romeo and Juliet...Sorry. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 627
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 12:26 pm: |
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That's the point, Lambd. I don't have to have a valid reason for disliking Kobe because I m not adhering to any standards. All I have to do is say that, in my opinion, I don't like what I personally perceive as Kobe's smug, egotistical arrogance.
BTW, Goines' body of work is considered street "literature" so maybe you like literature and don't know it. To like one form of literature doesn't preclude someone from liking another kind of literature. A person can appreciate both Shakespeare and Goines.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 513
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 01:11 pm: |
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chrishayden: Brother, u assume way too much...Thanks for your contribution, nevertheless. Your post didn't answer my question. Its that simple. I knew what I was looking for...I have not demanded a hard factual definition. Reread my post concerning the purpose of the thread.
Yes, chris, I also know that "good literature is going to always be what people SAY it is." I know the literary establishment, the canon, etc...., and yes, what is good literature changes over time. And it does certainly depend on genre...Yes, yes, yes......I know that too! yeah, yeah, I know it is subjective...blah, blah, blah....
But again, your post didn't answer my question about the content...
So cut the crap! Stop trying to teach folk and just answer the question if u want...lmao! If u want to say something about a particular genre then do so....if u noticed, I said what is literary has strong command of basic literary elements/techniques and their artistic use of these elements(whether it be following or breaking the rules) and engagement with literary traditions is what makes them literary. In other words, my definition is purposely general-- I talk about craft to encompass change over time and genre...
Also, if u noticed my use of jewideman was inspired by cynique's post.
Rather than explain through analogy, such as naming a few books that we have all probably read, broadly address the writing, the content...again, if u want...lmao...at this point, it seems that thumper and cynique have mostly covered the essentials! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 514
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 01:40 pm: |
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lamb: naw, a craftsman is not necessarily an artist...nor an artist necessarily a craftsman...you can even call the craftsman, for the purposes of this thread, the good writer...often times people have talent(artist), but their lack of craft can mitigate the potency of their talent. At the end it is subjective, because what u consider "artistic" i may consider rubish!
But don't we all know this, already?..Standards are impositions! Standards always change. In fact, once they change they have to be re-imposed on the society, so that it can be internalized and perpetuated until another "standard" is necessary to influence and shape the population.
Well, whether it be literature, or poetry, music, etc...when we talk about aesthetics and basic values, some "establishment," government, the state apparatus defines what is artistic, what is beautiful, who is a freedom fighter...consider, that this war this country is waging is called a war for "freedom," as was vietnam....but this is beyond the purpose and scope of this thread...
Lambd, you can enjoy goines, but, and this is one of my ancilliary but essential points of the thread, it is not who(literary canon) determines but what we as individual regular readers think is good writing and literary fiction, it about u saying i like this because goines is a good story teller(narrative and plot) and i like the issues(themes), and the characters(character development), as well as street fiction(often the tone, mood, setting). In other words, we as readers can determine, regardless of which category and genre, if the person has a good command of basic literary elements...the story should be both entertaining and enligtening...as evilgoon as shown elsewhere, folk can even enjoy greek mythology... |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 144
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 02:29 pm: |
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Greek or Roman mythology may cause me to get a few blisters, depending on who published and/or wrote the retelling of the tales. In high school, I was fascinated be ancient mythology. I must have read thirty books on mythology. Some held my interest, some were pretty dry.
Thanks, Yukio, for taking the time to answer my question.
Cynique>>what you say about Kobe is fine by me. I have no opinion of him either way because I don't know anything about him. I guess I give everyone the benefit of the doubt until they give me a reason to think otherwise. I don't like or dislike his personality because I have nothing to form an opinion on. But that's just me. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 515
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 04:37 pm: |
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lambd: thats funny...i did enjoy greek mythology when i was younger...but i can't say that i'm gonna pick up any tales by homer to quench my literary thirst...
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 303
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 04:57 pm: |
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Cynique:
Why, thanky m'am.
Yukio:
My post did answer your question. Content is subjective. What is literary is in the eye of the beholder/reader. I understand it is fashionable these days to treat literature as a craft that must have so much of this and so much of that to be "great" or "literary"--this too is subjective. Literature is not like a sporting contest wherein the winner is easily determined by a some quantifiable standard. It depends upon many things--indeed one aspect is time. I know whole University programs and books and reputations and careers are being established upon the opposite view--it carries many of the elements of fraud.
What is "command"? What are "basic literary elements/techniques?"--Three complex phrases joined by semicolons in a single sentece? Four?
What is "artistic use" of the elements? Use of blank verse? Eliminating all but nouns and verbs from the work? Not using adjectives?
"I talk about craft to encompass change over time and genre"? What kind of change? Over how much time? What genres?
If anybody other than Wideman had written that excerpt, if one of your students had written it, you'd have graded it C minus and added, "Silly and overwritten. Keep it simple!"
You love asking these, "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" questions and grow frustrated when noone can give you a concrete answer. You have seen too many episodes of "Kung Fu"
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 516
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 15, 2004 - 05:50 pm: |
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chrishayden: semantics, semanatics...i got ya point...but I've told u that, already. u wish to argue, but there is not disagreement, here. you have chosen to answer my question in your own way, and that is fine.
I'm not frustrated, but amused by the fact, as cynique as suggested elsewhere, that you don't wish to work with folk, unless it is on your own terms...
i've already stated that i'm not asking for a concrete, or as you termed it before, "hard factual definition." I've already said that content is subjective....blah, blah, blah...stop trying to teach and read what people write...u've said the same thing in different way, which is in and of it self laudable, but i have also told u again and again, I gotcha point, but I'm asking for something else...not whether content is "subjective." I'm not talkin bout tastes,(do u prefer symbolism, lyrical prose, realism, satire, tragedy, impressionism, etc..) stubborn one...but if one can identify what the author is doing and the work that these different techniques do...you can identify a three dimensional charater and not like the character; you can say the story was well organized and hate the story; there is parameters to work with...you can say that an author's point of view choice was ineffective and still say you like the point of view...but you know this already...
Let me show u how to engage people, chrishayden: You have a point. It is subjective for one to call one line lyrical and another person call the same line another staid, dense, and over-dramatized. You see...reread it and you try...lmao
Now, my intent was open a discussion. As evilgoon as suggested, yes evilgoon I always understood ya point, that people call something good or bad, etc...and can't explain what they mean. This was my MO...this thread, as i see, has helped to provide the language and terminology to help some of us who just will say...it was a good...it was literary because...i like the poetry in the words...i like the symbolism. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 305
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 12:04 pm: |
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I think I am not the only one here who wishes to work with folks only on his own terms. If I seem to be missing your points or not reading what you wrote it is because you are not being very clear, old fellow, as per usual. If you will go back through your postings, you will find that I am not the only one who has had this difficulty.
I'm certain that if you re read my postings, you will find that what you have taken for "teaching" is blunt statement of my position. That I have failed to conform to your idea as to how I should have "engaged" you--and who is trying to teach somebody now?--I apologize. You know what they say about old dogs and new tricks.
You properly opened a discussion and from what I have seen you have gotten a discussion and a very good one. I am sorry I could not anticipate your thoughts and parrot them (same difficulty we had with the Toni Morrison discussion)--but clairvoyance is not my strong point.
I end by paraphrasing the officers of the French General Staff at Officers training school when, in speaking of the classes held by Col. Grandmaison (the guiding spirit behind France's notorious Plan 17), "He does not teach tactics. He teaches metaphysics"
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 517
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 02:35 pm: |
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chrishayden: "old fellow"....not me! ...u are always so funny...metaphysics eh!?
Indeed, it has been a good thread, quite educational...as thumper put it, i've attempted to moderate, more or less...also, i really wanted you to talk about african american attributes. I don't know this for sure, but I doubt if many folk know what call and response is(though many witness and participate in this on sunday); signifying (though they may do this in their everyday speech); etc...
So when i asked u to explain, i wasn't looking for exact definitions, but for a few sentences explaining what this would look like in prose...
I think that all african americans should know about blues, hip hop, r&b, jazz, spirtuals, modern dance, black christianity, etc...all of these art forms are evovcative in our literature.... |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 167
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 08:32 pm: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: OK, now I get you. I have to admit that when I first read your starting thread, I thought you meant one thing when you really meant something else. So, Chris is not the only one.
To make sure I understand you, I'm trying to keep it in very simple terms you are looking for sentences that would show what African-American writers can bring to literary ficiton or writing literary fiction in an idiom from an African-American influenced aspect of our lives, i.e. jazz? Am I right? Because if this is indeed the case, this would take the discussion in a slightly different direction. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 523
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 16, 2004 - 11:24 pm: |
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thumper: no. I'm not "looking for sentences that would show what African-American writers can bring to literary ficiton or writing literary fiction in an idiom from an African-American influenced aspect of our lives, i.e. jazz?"
But that does sound interesting...
I was asking firstly, What is good writing(subjective) and what is literary writing(also subjective)....You and others have answered my question...I added terms, such as narrative, tone, character development, setting, mood, lyrical prose, etc... in parenthesis so that other posters who didn't know the official literary elements could understand them within the answers that you guys provided...This was not for me but for us...this site...for some of us know these terms and some of us don't...
Secondly, I asked for the idiomatic attributes, and chrishayden provided them...so again, I asked him to explain what some of these terms mean as it relates to fiction...again, because some folk may not know what, for example, call and response is although they do it in church...they could identify it in ellison, wideman, and others....
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 147
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 08:18 am: |
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I use call and response in the classroom when I say something or ask a question in order to evoke an exact response from the students. Can one of you brainy types give me an example in literature so that I know the difference? In other words, how is 'call and response' used in literature and what is its purpose? The purpose in my classroom is to make damn sure everyone is on the same page at the same time. In church, (lord knows I aint been in a decade or two, I hope its still the same) the preacher says, "Can I get an Amen?" and the congregation responds, "Amen".
"Can I get a 'Praise the Lord'?"
"Praise the Lord"
"Can I take my time?"
"What time is kickoff, cause the game will be on soon?!!!!!!!!!!" |
Brian_egeston
Regular Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 27
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:35 am: |
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I would add and very simple litmus test that many of the elitist and professional career book critics use when deciphering literary fiction from commercial fiction.
It's actually quite simple, though subjective, it does hold some merit when applied.
Here goes:
Literary Fiction = Character Driven Stories
Commercial Fiction = Plot Driven Stories
Good writing...that will be debated until the end of time, so I'll let you all fight on that battlefield.
I invite you to perform this quick exercise. Think of the books listed below and determine what drove the story--a intense and twisting plot--or the complexity and struggle of the protagonist.
1. Eden by Olympia Vernon
2. Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison
3. Drop by Mat Johnson
4. Leaving Atlanta by Tayari Jones
5. The Ecstatic by Victor LaValle
6. The Color Purple by Alice Walker
7. The Known World by Edward P. Jones
8. Devil In A Blue Dress by Walter Mosely
9. The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown
10. A Prayer for Deliverance by Chris Chambers
11. Dark Corner by Brandon Massey
12. Every book John Grisham has written except A Painted House
13 Every book James Patterson writes.
14. And this too shall pass by E. Lynn Harris
The first set might be more likely to be called literary fiction and most of the first set are remembered because of the main character—his/her struggles, flaws, complexities, adversities, etc.
The last set might be considered more of commercial fiction because we read them thinking, What’s gonna happen next? We read them hanging on to every page. The end of every chapter makes us turn to the next chapter.
From what I have heard from writers and critics, this is the best and most practical way to distinguish between the two.
THERE ARE HOWEVER those rare masterpieces that combine both. Those beautiful works which combine a great plot with amazing and complicated characters. These titles come to mind:
The Intuitionist by Colson Whitehead
Native Son by Richard Wright
A Man In Full by Tom Wolfe (Best Black Book Written by a White Man, EVER!)
I might throw Percival Everett’s Erasure in there if you twisted my arm.
So in my humble and carefully formed estimation, the discernable difference of this subjective segregation is that literary fiction is character driven and commercial fiction is more plot driven.
In terms of flow and rhythm and writing being lyrical…that’s cute. I’ll let you all keep talking about that. Yes writing can be all of that, but…never mind.
Be of good cheer,
Brian Egeston
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 525
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:35 am: |
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brain egeston: thanks for your contribution...yes, it was rather simple, though helpful... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 634
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:38 pm: |
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So can a character-driven book which is poorly written be literature? The question of what constitutes good writing still has to be ciphered into the equation. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 362
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 12:45 pm: |
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Cynique,
Define "poorly written". |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 636
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 01:12 pm: |
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Something that is poorly written is just that!The "character-driven" plot could be trite and poorly executed, the writing may be rife with mixed metaphors, and riddled with grammatical errors, and incorrect punctuation. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 531
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 01:30 pm: |
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cynique: I think a character driven novel with grammatical errors, mixed metaphors, etc...is bad writing. I believe, subjectively chrishayden, that "good writing" is still the foundation of good literature, regardless of whether it be literary or commerical.
What u have pinpointed, it seems, is one of the limitations of BE's formula. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 08:27 pm: |
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Hello All,
Brian: Hey there Brian, how you? *says the spider to the fly with a big ol smile* I agree with most of your post. And the titles you used to make your point is a good selection. But, when I started thinking about it, you litmus test is faulty.
I think one point should be made is how are you determining which books are character driven and which ones are plot driven. Can you easily distinguish whether the book is character driven and it has a fascinating plot or vise versa? Is there a certain percentage that should be applied in these cases? Like if the book is 60% character driven then it wins the title? Your principle is pretty shaky here.
Second, there are plenty of books that I would classify as character driven books that is strictly commercial fiction. Actually, damn near all of the U go girl books are character driven, seeing as the plot is damn near invisible and only the lead characters are the same, its just their name has changed. Now as far as the plot driven novel, that to has plenty of open holes. For instance, the Percival Everett books that I have read are plot driven and I wouldn't say that any of his books are commercial fiction. Then there's the earlier AA novels that would fail your litmus test as well. For instance where would Their Eyes Were Watching God fall, plot driven or character driven? I think a valid argument could be made for both, but the conclusion would still be that the novel is literary fiction. Then there's Those Bones are Not My Child by Toni Bambara Cade which is literature but is plot driven, and of course I can go on, there's The Cotillion, The Streeet, the books of John A. Williams, even Donald Goines and Iceberg Slim movels are more plot driven.
If the elitist and professional career book critcs all use this principal as a yard stick, then its no wonder I find almost all of them boring.
Yukio: you wrote, I believe, subjectively chrishayden, that "good writing" is still the foundation of good literature, regardless of whether it be literary or commerical.
Yukio, no truer words have you spoken. I totally agree. |
Brian_egeston
Regular Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 30
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:45 pm: |
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Thumper,
Of course the litmus test is flawed. We're talking about books and writing. For fear of once again regurgitating the S-word, I'll leave it be. There is no definition of good writing nor literature only argued opinions.
Thumper, you brought up Faulkner whose first edition of S& F was LITTERED I mean stinking with rotten flesh and bone dead musas littered with typos and grammatical errors. So much that the next edition was entitled Sound and The Fury Revised and Corrected.
I guess one would inquire, how did people siphon the good writing from his pile of errors and typos?
Don't get me started, Thumper. It's summer time and I'm on vacation from getting’ in yo’ tail!
Holla at cha boy and do remember me to your dear acquaintances on next occasion you meet.
B
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Obi
Newbie Poster
Username: Obi
Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:09 am: |
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Ok, guys, listen up. Most of you, beginning with Chris at the start of this thread, are missing the point. Good fiction writing is the knowledge of and the adept application of the elements of fiction. More than merely grammar and punctuation, it is the use of viewpoint, character, plot, scene, description, etc., that make for good writing. All fiction should have at least these. Literary fiction usually concerns itself with the internal struggle of the character or characters versus the external struggle, though a story may concern itself with both. Good literary fiction will have something more, something non-obvious. For example, social commentary, symbols or theme. It may have florid language. Great literary fiction will have some of most of the latter elements.
There are lots of literary fiction writers around. Some are known, some are not. Sorry, Chris, but recognition by the Literary Establishment, the Powerbrokers and gatekeepers, the tastemakers and the Academics does NOT determine who a literary fiction writer is. They do determine what the elements of literary fiction are. A work does not have to be a masterpiece in order to be literary. Lots of lesser works are literary. A BLACK GIRL IN PARIS is literary. So is COFFEE WILL MAKE YOU BLACK. SINGLE MOM and PIMP are not. Some works are hybrids. Finally, credentials do NOT count; talent does.
ONE FLEW OVER THE COCKOO'S NEST is literary. Here is why. The story concerned itself with the internal growth of the Chief. He was powerless at the beginning of the book; he was powerful at the end. The cowboy was a symbol of Christ. He stayed behind when he didn't have to, and sacrificed himself for his fellow patients. He was also the embodiment of the notion that one ought to stand up for what one believes even in the face of certain death. Theme.
Ellison's INVISIBLE MAN has too much on too many different levels to even discuss here, but consider its social commentary on communism and the symbol of the glass eye in the water glass for openers. Consider the surrealism.
Now I'm really going to give you something to shoot at. I am a literary fiction writer. My first published book was A FEAST OF PEONIES. Thumper reviewed it. Check out the review. It's a story about a brother on the down low who dodges cops and has sex, lots of sex. But these elements are not what the book is really about. The book is really about honesty, and how the protagonist comes to grips with his guilt, his deceptions and his betrayals. There are also some social and philosophical commentaries, and there might even be one or two symbols. It is a literary novel. So is my second novel, THE LAST AND FINAL KING. Thumper told me he would be reviewing that one, too, so I won't give any details on it, yet. If you read them, let me know what you think.
I hope this helps. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 644
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 12:46 am: |
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My, Obi, you speak with unbridled authority. But taking into consideration what everybody else has to say about this subject, I'm am more inclined to believe that it's more about what literary fiction isn't, than about what it is. Interpretation plays a very important role in categorizing this genre, and nobody's definition is above being challenged. I am especially anxious to hear Chrishayden's response to your pronouncements. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 311
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:09 am: |
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Cynique:
This won't take long:
Obi:
Let's have you pronounce a work literary fiction and let's have say Toni Morrison pronounce a work literary fiction, and if you disagree see how many people got YOUR back (and no cheating and saying " I would never disagree with Madame Toni".
It's simply how it T-I-Z. I can tell you why the Lakers lost and Magic Johnson can tell you. Who you gonna listen to?
Brian:
I laid out to let Da Thumpman do some Thumpin' cuz he got yo' numba and he laid the voodoo down--of course your test is flawed. It must be flawed in something that is as subjective as this.
One can probably make the general statement, "Everything that appeared in Black Mask Magazine was hackwork and trash" and get everyone to agree. Then you say, "Dashiell Hammett and Raymond Chandler appeared in there" and people demur.
Commercial fiction is not literary fiction. But Hammet and Chandler ground out their work for the pulps for a penny a word like the basest hack. It was commercial fiction. It is not Balzac, but is starting to invade the lists of the classics.
How can you separate plot from the struggle of of the protagonist? Indeed, plot has been defined in some circles as "a character trying to get something."
Let us go further. Let us take works like Naked Lunch, The Tropic of Cancer, Be Bop Re Bop, Mumbo Jumbo, These have been pronounced literary classics. How does character drive them?
I reiterate, we have lists, we have theories, we have analyses, but in the end, absent some impartial, physical standard , it all boils down to the fact that fiction is literary which someone pronounces literary. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 546
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 10:48 am: |
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chrishayden: You are correct...which is why this thread was not initiated as a debate, though obviously folk can do so if they wish. |
Obi
Newbie Poster
Username: Obi
Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 01:25 pm: |
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Cynique:
I appreciate your comments. With regard to interpretation, that comes into play in determining whether or not a literary work is good. Literary fiction is not all ipso facto good. There are literary works that are bad just as there are non-literary works that are good.
Interpretation also comes into play when considering symbols and when reading 'between the lines.' Literary fiction can imply things from which the reader may draw inferences based upon his or her interpretation of the implication. Quality is often a matter of taste.
Chris:
We can all be careful readers. We don't need Madame Toni to tell us what is or is not literary. Literary fiction has certain definable, recognizable characteristics. One such characteristic is background information on the protagonist's childhood. If the author gives you details about the childhood, the work is a candidate for the label 'literary.' The more of these characteristics the author uses, the more likely the label will apply.
In my last post, I listed more characteristics, and I pronounced a couple of works literary. I welcome any and all rebuttals. And guaranteed, I will not defer to anyone else's judgment based on their station in life. I will defer to a superior argument.
Finally, I KNOW why the Lakers lost. They got out-played! What could you or Magic add to that? |
Brian_egeston
Regular Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 01:36 pm: |
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I stole this from amazon.com. It's a post a reader made after compiling their list of favorite books.
Very interesting:
My name is *name withheld from, post*, and I am a Black page-turner-holic. It started when I was back in college. When I should have been studying (or dating), I was reading Eric, E-Lynn, Omar, and other Black page-turners. In so doing, I was neglecting my studies, my hormones, and most importantly my brain. At my lowest point, I would read two or three of these books a day. It was bad, ya'll. Bad. I didn't realize how bad it was until I started graduate school to earn a master's in English, specializing in African-American lit. I am ashamed to admit it, but I could not read any of the "great" books on my professors' reading lists'Invisible Man', 'Sula', 'Churchboys & Other Sinners', 'Dive', 'The Color Purple', 'The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman' : I found them slow and boring. Yet at night I would curl up with the latest Zane or Carl Webber and zip right through it.
Something was definitely wrong with me. So I talked to my professor about it, and she explained that I had gotten used to reading the wrong way. I was reading, she said, the same way I watched TV, with half of my brain on cruise control. She was correct. I noticed that when I read page-turners, I could skim through paragraphs, reading only the first sentence or two and understand everything that was going on. All of the stuff I skipped was filler. She explained to me that I was reading for plot and drama and paying little or no attention to the other important aesthetics of reading, which only the great writers of the great books can offer: insight into the human condition, genuine conflict, artistic brilliance, knowledge, ideas. Good books are not meant to be skipped through; they are meant to be savored. Good books are not meant to be forgotten once put down; they are meant to be pondered. They are meant to change us, 'A Lesson Before Dying (Vintage Contemporaries (Paperback))'. They are meant to disturb us, 'Bounce'. They are meant to challenge us, 'MIDDLE PASSAGE'. They are meant to make us grow, 'Brothers and Keepers'.
To cure me, she put me on a strict diet of great black books that had some of the flashy qualities of page-turners so that I would be weaned off that addiction slowly: 'White Teeth: A Novel', 'Soul Kiss', 'Push', 'Glow in the Dark','The Future Has a Past: Stories', 'The Autobiography of Miss Jane Pittman','The Cattle Killing', 'Soulcatcher: And other stories', 'Gorilla, My Love (Vintage Contemporaries)','A Lesson Before Dying (Vintage Contemporaries (Paperback))'.
She was so right. Great black books are great because they contain great ideas, which we as black people need to ponder. They are written by our best artists, deepest thinkers, and cleverest storytellers, who spent years mastering their craft to get it just right. They are not writing for money; they are writing to enlighten. They are writing to TRULY entertain. They dare to go below the surface. Thus, great black books can't be read with half your brain on cruise control. They have to be savored and pondered. I am a better reader now, and a better person thanks to my new diet of great black books. I am also a better critic of page-turners. Yes, I still read them. It's a hard habit to break. ('Nervous: A Novel', 'Not a Day Goes by', 'Sasha's Way'.) But when I read them now, I can feel what they lack. I can feel their shallowness. I can feel myself demanding more.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 551
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 02:51 pm: |
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These are all good...
Obi: Nice post. The first one, that is. It mostly stated what my post(s) have, with a little expansion, of course. So I guess we're in agreement...though this was not suppose to be a combat zone.
This thread is informative--not debate. But, you do as u please. No kicking in the groin, punching in the face or breast, nor poking in the eye. I'm not thumper, but I'm not havin it...just playin!
Let the battle commence! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 369
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 03:14 pm: |
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Chris/Obi,
I get the impression that you are talking about 2 distinct things.
Chris appears to be discussing literature from the perspective of whether a book includes some imposed presumptions of a certain ‘quality’ (Or "Is it 'good'?") while Obi is arguing from the perspective of whether a book includes some imposed presumptions of certain a ‘criteria’ (Or "Is it 'correct'?"). And I think it is within your disparity this debate will continue to rage.
I have avoided this discussion largely because I am perplexed by whether something is "good writing" or "literary fiction". I could reflexively parrot much of what has already been uttered by most. But a part of me can’t help agreeing with Chris that ultimately this is all too subjective to fairly define/catagorize.
Moreover, I think books will move from one category to the other based on the overall educational/reading level of the average reader (the ‘dumber’ we all get, the more books will be considered ‘literary’), the cultural zeitgest, prevailing socio-political structure/dogma. So WHATEVER we decide is and isn't literary today may easily become mute tomorrow. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 552
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 04:25 pm: |
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abM: right...it is subjective. Yet, I think there is some boundaries we can set as it pertains to character development, plot construction, point of view, etc...a one dimensional character is a one dimensional character...now, this is unacceptable for a protagonist regardless of the whether it be literary or commericial. Isn't there a certain logic to the point of view...one can often identify a weaker writer when the narrator tells us information they can't possibly know...of course, there is fiction where the narrator's point of view is purposely suspect...like TM's Jazz.
Any thoughts posters? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 372
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 04:41 pm: |
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Yukio,
Yes, we can and should assess relative quality based on certain criteria. I just think the whole "good" vs. "literary" writing argument is getting progressively murky. |
Blkmalereading
Regular Poster
Username: Blkmalereading
Post Number: 48
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 04:48 pm: |
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ABM may of made one of the best post on this subject. But I think that standards have been set down as to what is literary. So if a book has all of those standards (have they changed with time?) then that is at least a START of understanding what is literary as opposed to....
Some of the literary elements have been posted such as narrative, tone, character development, setting, mood, lyrical prose.
I must say that I've waivered back and forth even while reading the discussion about this post. But I believe Cynique came closest to defining my personal thoughts. Hitting the 'soul' in some way, shape or form is probably important to me in a literary piece of work. But you still must have some of the elements to start you in that direction and after that maybe it is all subjective?
I hated to say that. But that's the best I could do.
White Teeth was written by a very young (21 or 22) year old Black British woman.
Interesting. I think I also agree that more that defining what literary IS, we have come to the conclusion of what it's NOT! Or have we? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 554
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 05:53 pm: |
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abm: It is getting rather murky aint it...this is why I explained, though it seems others had not read that particular post, that this thread was not a "good writing" v. "literary writing" thread but it was suppose to be informative or even instructive, so to speak...
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 174
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 09:51 pm: |
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Hello All,
I like what blkmalereading had to say concerning standards of "literary fiction" having been set down. Obi pointed out these attributes. So, I'm good. That said, this position is a total disagreement with "literary fiction" or even "good writing" being subjective. Too much trash is being allowed to move under the bridge falling under the "being subjective" banner.
While at the BEA, I was in one of the booth that featured the some authors of the new "hip hop" books. This one guy went on and on how he thought that the "writing is a craft" was such a joke. All you have to do is sit down and write, he said. I didn't say anything to brotherman. I just looked at him and thought to myself that his book had better be on point. While I know he's just one so-called "author", there are others who are in this just for the money. Where all this money is, I don't know, but its around here someplace. I notice that whenever any of these "authors" are around, don't let the subject of "good writing" come up because the first thing they do is jump on the defense.
So, yes, while some may say that Beloved is a classic, and others may disagree and say that The Color Purple is a better written novel than Kindred. The point is the participants are in the same playing field. Everyone won't agree with every thing, this is only human. But if I say The Middle Passage is da bomb and the other person say Entangled is a better book, well I'm going to look at that person as the fool he is and keep steppin. |
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