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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 149
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 01:22 pm: | 
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Hello All,
As many of you know, I was at the BEA in Chicago this past weekend. I loved it! We have some new exciting books to read, discuss, and love coming up for the Fall. I'm looking forward to it. I met and hee haw-ed with some you. It was good, as always.
We also have some new features that will be happening for the site and the discussion board as well. Keep an eye out for that, as well.
After having an incredibly good time for the past 5 days, I come back on Sunday, to the board, to a big mess! I'm sure plenty of you have noticed that a certain thread and posts for a couple of people have been disappearing. Well, that's because I've deleted them. A few folks have been banned from the discussion board. A word to the wise is sufficient. I should not have had to do this. We are suppose to be adults. I'm not here for babysitting duties. Now, if anyone has any comments or questions concerning the actions I've taken and/or how it is going to be on this board, from this day on, hit me, offline, at thumper@aalbc.com. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 292
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 02:11 pm: |
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Youse guys is driving me crazy (Drivin' Miz Daisy?)So what happened in Chicago?? |
Franklin_white
First Time Poster
Username: Franklin_white
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 09, 2004 - 08:01 pm: |
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Thumper and Troy it was very nice meeting you both at BEA. Keep up the good work!
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Eviana
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 87
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 12:28 am: |
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Thumper,
It's good to read that you had a good time in Chicago and it's good to see that everything isn't allowed on this board. |
Kc_trudiva
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 78
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 09:28 am: |
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hmm, thanks for cleaning things up around here thumper. hope you didn't have to thump anybody in the head. ahaha!
speaking of BEA, i wasn't able to attend but i did receive a forwarded email of someone else's recap of the events. it wasn't all that pretty; in fact the comments were quite hilarious. see below...
I am fresh off the Book Expo America (BEA) event
that traditionally has taken place in Chicago for the last few years. Next year, the event moves to New York. A haven for book lovers and writers, the
event was initially designed for booksellers and publishers to move their product. In recent years it has involved into a curious mix of agents, vendors, celebrity authors, self-published writers, publicity seekers, the curious and crazy
alike.
The African American Pavillion ironically situated
near the back of the Expo (laughing), left much to be desired. Hands down for "knowing how to hook your shit up," goes to Zane and her Strebor publishing house. Every time I passed her expansive book, her slew of writers would attempt to hand me the latest copy of their work. Even after politely declining several of the titles, I was still encouraged to "take one anyway." It was
disheartening, but not surprising, to later see several of her titles shrewn on the Expo floor or being fished out of a dumpster by a curious Black janitor.
The second most popular table was Blackboard, and I do not know why, other than they threw a mostrosity of a party/award ceremony/book signing type thing that left much to be desired.... (I'll get back to that one later)...
What was most disheartening was the real lack of
Black prescense at BEA. Savvy self publishers and established Black owned imprints were smart to register in the expensive expo. But I'm not sure what good it did--if any. Incidentially, the biggest Black publisher, Johnson Publishing Company (which owns Ebony and Jet and publishes several titles per year) was not inside the African American Pavillion. They were located in the Negro section---okay, I'm playing. (Laughing) Oh...and so was Kensington....whose writers primarily sat stone-faced,..."whom shall i make it out too," though Pat O'George Walker did a wonderful job as she autographed her Sister Betty titles while in character...
But you don't really wanna hear about the BEA do
you? You want someone to give it you raw, unedited and uncensored? Okay, I'm not a snob, don't get me wrong, and I like junk food reading just as I like nice well-rounded meals, but the representation of Black writers at this event was a misreable display of Black literary tradition in this country. White houses with Black imprints didn't even bother to pitch those books....
And with the exception of very established African
American writers (Octavia Butler, Charles Olgetree, etc.), for the most part place was beaming with people who know how to "author" and "market" but shouldn't be called a "writer"
anymore than they guy who cutz your hair and happens to be quite funny, should be called a "comedian."
Most of these folk cannot write. Forget what they
are writing about: money, sex, cars, clothes, sex, relationships, houses, sex, murder, sex, dope, sex, guns and music and hoes and sex and upscale living and sex and black athletes and sex....did I say sex?.....Forget the subject.
Most of them...MOST OF THEM...cannot WRITE. How do I know this? Because it's obvious from skimming the first few lines, graphs and pages, that ...well they obviously don't read...
As I met lots of first-time writers, I mean authors, I was quick to ask their influences, and most...well...cited a TV show or FILM that inspired them to write their first book. Others were proud to admit that they had left careers,
or was thinking about leaving their careers, or wish they had a career to leave--to be a writer.
That's cool. I mean, if you're a professional
writer--that is your profession right? That means you WRITE for a living. That means you are paid, or earn a living YOUR living (meaning you pay your rent, car note, child support, Bally's bill) by your literary talent...
Yo! I'm jaded. I used to be one of those writers
running around town spouting Morrison, Wright, hooks, West, Walker, Baldwin, Hughes, Dunbar, Brooks, Shakespere, Voltaire, Faulkner, wain...you
know...those guys....saying...this is what I am. This is what it means. This is the process....This is an art.
I've grown up. This aint no art. Writing is a
discipline. Its a craft. If you aint spending most of your time (AS A WRITER)reading the works of others, studying how to make your work better, emerging, growing, expanding, contributing to the cannon of literature...thinking about grammar, and how to create new words, write new metaphors, break down syllables,and give depth and dimension
to your characters...you know...the discipline....you just pushing a pen man! You're no better than a used car sales man who can tell you EVERYthing about a beat-up lemon in hopes you don't take it for a test drive or look under the
hood.
Incidentially, my cousin bought her first car that
way. It was pretty and red and had nice shiny black tires. She got it home and within 48 hours smoke was coming out the hood. Stupid wasn't she? I know what you mean...that's how some people think about poeple who pick up books based on the cover art---or about those who approach their writing in the same manner. To them...it aint about "the craft, the period, the slices, the character development or the story..." It is about "Damn, you mean people will buy this shit!"
"Yo! Steph did you meet Zane," one person said,
laughing.
"No?"
"She's over there. Go get a signed book."
"Why?"
"It's Zane."
"And?"
"Well, nothing," the person said, smiling. "I just
want you to see how she looks."
"Huh?"
"She's a regular moe. A deacon's wife, dumpy," the
person mused. "Not what I expected."
I grabbed a seat in an empty chair and stared at theperson dumbfounded. Damn its come to this. It aint about the work, its about how the writer looks? Its all in the marketing baby. The person seemed to think because Zane likes to write about orgies, sex without love, hot Black lesbians and throw in the word "dick" and "suck" every few pages, that perhaps she looked something like one
of her characters...
"No thanks," I said finally. "I don't really care
for that type of stuff."
"Me either," the person laughed. "She can't write.
But she can sell. I heard 800,000 in the first few runs."
"Then what the hell you telling me to go over there for?" I got up and started to walk away...
"I just wanted you to see her." ***
I watched Zane work her booth and later on Saturday night...work her table at the Blackboard Awards. Octavia Butler sat in the middle of the foyer singing first edition copies of Kindred. Hot, stuffy and full of booklovers, writers
and literary groupies, the event looked like a
poorly planned family reunion.
Ms. Butler (yes MS.!) sat there looking unamused and uninterested as gawkers stood in line to receive a "free book."
"Yo, is it any good," one fellow asked me as I stood nearby watching the display?"
"Excuse me?"
"Why is that line so long?"
"Its Octvaia Butler. You know her?"
"Naw, but I'mma get me a book anyway." He said
grining. He ran and joined the back of the line.
I followed. Waited five minutes and then jumped out. I didn't really want an autograph copy. I felt I looked odd, standing in all Black with a smirk on my face. Obviously, its the air in this room. I touched a sister on the shoulder as she passed me holding Kindred.
"Hey, sis, that's a good book," I said, smiling.
"I aint never heard of it," she smiled back.
"You know who Octavia Butler is right?"
"That lady over there? Not really..."
I wanted to smack the book from her hand and jump on the table and scream from the rafters: WHO ARE YOU FREAKIN PEOPLE!!!! Instead, I just laughed and walked away in search of rum and salmon. On the way I bumped into Desiree Sanders, owner of
Afrocentric Bookstore in Chicago. She was being honored as Bookseller of the Year. Desiree is the same person who sparked a hot debate on a BWA list a couple of years ago, when she said she
wouldn't carry self-published books. Well, apparently we all love her now. (Smile).
"Hey Steph," Desiee smiled, as she pushed her fork
through a plate of something or other. "Girl this is a mess."
"Yeah, it looks that way."
"I'm being honored as bookseller of the year and
they don't even have me in the program." She said, pointing at a program thrown at the end of her table.
"Get out?!"
"Yeah, and I took out an add too!"
I shot the shit for two more seconds and walked
away. Yolanda Joe looked smashing in her blue ensemble. Well so did all the A-list writers. They walked with that air of "Do you know who I am...?" I guess they deserved it...
I saw a crowd swoon and I followed the smell.
Everyone was geeked that Spike Lee's wife (that isn't her birth name) was signing copies of Please Baby Please and her newest tome--a well-put together "Chic Lit." I'd accidentially
gotten one at the Expo. I say accident because as I walked away and scanned the back flap..I noticed whom she was married to. "I hope she didn't think I was strange, considering I didn't grin or gawk or ask her "how's your husband..." as people were now doing at the conference. Her
co-writer, a dynamic sister who'se chronicled shenanigans with the NBA and some of you sisters, looked quite pleased, despite the awkardness of being somewhat "overshawdowed" by her co-author.
And that book will sell too. Apparently, Chic Lit
and Gangster Lit is what our people desire and crave and need. And us writer/artists/authors are pushing this stuff out by the droves. Build a better mousetrap. Build it and they will come. If we write it, a reader will find it. Don't matter that it aint "heavy" or expressing something within the human condition other to get "played,
laid and PAID."
Haki said that we need to understand that even with the emergence of performance poetry (spoken word) and slams and all this new Black fiction and voices and shit......and even though there's an increasing number of poeple who profess to be poets and writers---few actually read poetry and writing/books. Understand, Haki said, that although small minded people rule the world, it is always right to question, challenge and hold them accountable for their actions.
Now that's cold. I aint gonna say folk like Omar
Tyree and Zane are small minded--just because they don't write what I read. They are doing their thing and getting paid. But I get sick, for real, I get sick....when I walk the aisles
of our stores ...and that's ALL I see folk
reading...
Zora might have been accused of this herself---until after she died and folks decided that her short stories about crazy folk in Eatonville actually said something about...well the people in Eatonville.
I guess I'm scared that 50 years from now some
anthorpologists will pick up the last 200 copies of books writing by Black writers and Black women in particular in the 20th centry and ...he will have this to say about our people:
"They wer some horney, broke, rich, upper crust,
bling bling, murderous niggas, niggers, or African American bohemians, who all drove BMWs and had a problem finding a man, or a manicurists..."
Yo! My people..I'm done. Write what you like. But
that don't make you no writer...no Hemingway..no Hurston...no Hughes.... You got some stuff in your journal..don't make you no journalist....and I know how to pull out my son's loose tooth, but I aint no dentist either.
Study writing. Learn this. Breath this. And do your thing....we'll all be much better for it...
BE there at 7 p.m. the invitation said. The award
show didn't start until almost 10 p.m. (and that's being liberal).
Steph in Chicago |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 467
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 10:14 am: |
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well..kc_trudiva who ever your friend is, has experienced the general reading public, but in black face. This is not really racial; it is "commericial" fiction, "pop" fiction, etc...we still have a long list of recent literary writers, so I don't think its serious. Since black fiction is so popular, it seems that folk don't remember, or perhaps know, there has always been a smaller number of literary writers than commericial writers...
Also, I wonder to what degree could we find the younger Toni Morrisons, Alice Walkers, etc....of our day...at the BEA. The masses (not that this is what they want for i'm sure they welcome all readers) is not who their fiction is marketed to, Or is it? I don't know these things, just presumptions....
Share this brief list with your friend of some of our still present and younger literary writers who she/he may or may not have read(many of their books have been reviewed here, btw)
younger folk:
Nelly Rosario-Song of the Water Saints
Thomas Glave
Tayari Jones-Leaving Atlanta
Victor Lavalle
Colson Whitehead
ZZ Packer
Edwidge Danticat
Susan-Lori Parks
Zadie Smith
Chris Abani-Graceland
Toure
Over 40 crowd still kickin it:
W. Mosley
Elizabeth Nunez
Zakes Mda
P. Everett
Morrison
Walker
Wideman
J C. Cooper
EPJones
Jewell P. Rhodes
Naylor
Arthur Flowers
Reginald McKNight
Jewel Gomez
Achebe
Paule Marshall
Gayl Jones
Charles Johnson
J Kincaid
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 603
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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kc-trudiva, I really enjoyed that "confidential" report, mostly because I totally related to it. Writing is the only "profession" ini the world where the only credentials you need are a pencil and a delusion.
Yukio, as usual, takes the high ground, but down there in the trenches it's ludicrous. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 470
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 12:42 pm: |
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cynique: I don't disgree with the assertion that publishing a book doesn't make you a "writer." I agree with that...and have said so, elsewhere. But to state that anthro 50 years from now will characterize our books as "steph in chicago" does is overstating it abit. The number of quality fiction is always smaller than the commericial fiction output... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 606
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 12:59 pm: |
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True, Yukio, but the essence of a people is often measured by the appetite of the common people rather than the tastes of the upper crust. Yet, who knows how drastically things will change in 50 years. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 471
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 01:31 pm: |
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hmmm...as i understand it, common folk's intelligence is demonstrated through their widsom rather than the often superficial signs of intelligence--like what books you'll find in their library and/or bookshelves.
While i submit to having read enough, perhaps, for a life time, I know my book knowledge and education, though important, is insuffient w/o experience and wisdom...
at any rate, we don't disagree...so i stop, here. |
Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 10, 2004 - 05:43 pm: |
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Hi Kc-Trudiva and the rest of the fam:
I was just checking the post, ready to start a recap of the BEA for the site later this month when I spotted this email KC received and passed on.
After reading the post from whoever, I have but one thing to say. What BEA where they attending? Though there may be some small percentage of truth in all the rhectoric I read, I find the author's tone insulting, condesending and really what I would expect from some wanna be writer who has obviosely been rejected and wonder why did they even bother to attend. $110 is a lot to spend to be somewhere you don't want to be. For one I am curious to this part of the post, though there are others I will address later when time permits:
"I am fresh off the Book Expo America (BEA) event
that traditionally has taken place in Chicago for the last few years."
This statement alone is in no way true--last year BEA was in LA and the year before in NY. Seems to me whoever this person is should do a little research before trying to bring down anyone or should we be looking for another Jayson Blair within our mist? Can't the truth ever be told or is it better to just have the fiction?
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Kc_trudiva
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Kc_trudiva
Post Number: 80
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 08:31 am: |
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hello all,
i have no clue about the person who wrote the recap of her experience at BEA; it was a FORWARDED email. anywho, i thought it to be quite funny with it's underly wit (and sarcasm). and linda you are somewhat on point about the author ("wanna be writer") because after tracing the email, i found that it came from a yahoo group called Black Writers United. interesting. |
Sisg
Veteran Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 12:25 pm: |
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Hello all,
I am a member of BWU, and it is a very diverse and interesting group of people from across the USA and world. The author of the above dissertation is, I believe a true writer, with publications to boot. Her account of BEA has caused quite a disturbance and generated much conversation among authors, fans and observers, even amongst the BWU. Although, I was not privy to attend the BEA, we must not contest that some people see things differently. For example, I used to love to go to the Essence Festival, LOVED IT!!! RAVED about it!!! While my good friend, whom often attends with me, HATED IT!!! COMPLAINED about it, and just didn't have a good time at all. I don't think the email was to cast a negative light on the BEA or the authors attending, but to perhaps challenge authors, publishing companies, would-be writers to think outside the box, and write a better story...now that's where it gets sticky...okay. Some folks arguing about "why yall always jumping on hip-hop fiction, street fiction, baby mama drama, black erotica...etc... But I think, quite the contrary, it is not the subject matter that bothers the email author, or others, it is the quality of the writing. This has been discussed here as well, bad writing is just bad writing and there is no excuse for it. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 487
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 12:46 pm: |
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sisg: Hmmmm...i agree it does get sticky! Let me state, again. I prefer literary fiction. I'm not interested in a well written story about boy meets girl, boy cheats on girl, and then girl finds resolution in learning that she doesn't need a man to define her...With that said, folk like "Steph in Chicago," seem to be making a distinction between commercial fiction and literary fiction, based upon what best represents the "race."
I think that position is problematic, because if ya wanna write then you shouldn't have to bear the burden of ya race, as A_Womon has stated, elsewhere.
You're right, folk need to step up and take writing seriously. In addition, and this is the unfortunate part, there is the possibility that this particular market is not concerned with the "good writing." It seems to me, and here are my socialist leanings to be honest, capitalism though democratic in some ways, is only interested in making money...so if bad writing sells, what can u do? |
Sisg
Veteran Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 64
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 02:20 pm: |
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Yukio,
I agree publishers are not concerned with "good writing". They are concerned about what sells. So, who should be concerned? The author? I hope so. The intended audience? Steph from Chicago, saw a overwhelming display of the other fiction, ala chick-lit, sistagirl, gangster lit... and very few representations of literary fiction or maybe just some plain good fiction. I recently visited Media Play, commercial bookstore that sells books, movies, cd's etc...and searched their African-American fiction aisles for their latest. And, like it was overwrought with these type of titles...here I was looking for some of Thumpers choices and to my disappointment I was only able to locate a couple. I left with a James Patterson novel. I don't suggest or even support the idea of writing fiction that solely uplifts, but I do believe in writing a good story and more importantly, reading one. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 161
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 09:22 pm: |
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Hello All,
Sisgal: Don't I know what you mean!! Although I have to agree with some of what Steph said. There are several points which are incorrect as Linda pointed out. I love the Blackboard receptions. Ever since I started attending the BEA, the Blackboard reception has been a highlight for me.
It was also at this year's Blackboard reception that I started reading my first Zane book, The Sisters of the APF. I hate to hurt ol' Steph's feelings but I loved The Sisters of APF. The main character Mary Ann was a tad bit stiff and a little too sweet to be wholly believable, but I thought that book was all that.
While Steph is entitled to her opinions, it would help that all of them were based on fact. |
Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 39
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 11, 2004 - 09:29 pm: |
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Hi Sisgal
All I can say is hmmmm and obviously many didn't read part two of the diatribe Steph posted on BWU of which I also belong. To concentrate only on the facts of who can write and who can't write still has no bearing on the over all BEA experience. Perhaps Steph (who's real name I won't publish) only saw what she wanted. By the way when will those two projects that she has been touting ever reach the public? For someone who has yet to showcase her talents other than essays, poetry, short stories, and articles I really don't understand her attitude at all. As for the award she won...well, hey--so have many others who still have not graced us with their voice, yet they constantly complain that there is no good literary fiction to be found and we will look so bad in the future. Come on, give me a break--show me what you working with so I can make my own opinion. Show me that your work is well written, researched and can gain some readership worth standing the test of time. In other words...put up--put out and let the world see your stuff. Hopefully, we won't be disappointed and can move from reading authors who can't write to adding more authors to the pot that can. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 488
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 01:44 am: |
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linda: this is off the topic. Is the novel form more prestigious than the short story, poetry, essays, and articles? |
Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 09:51 am: |
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Yukio
In my opinion, yes. Though it takes less words, and one must be more concise with the usuage for short stories, essays, etc. it is far more demanding to complete a novel. It takes a discipline that many aspiring authors lack. Most publishers have a standard word count that must be met, which is where the true craft of writing takes place(in literary fiction). We see in most of the new writers, (that practice lazy writing in my opinion) stories filled with designers names, expensive cars, etc., to fill up the space. Whereas a true author will fill those same spaces with more intriguing attributes to the substance of the story, dig deeper, and have more depth for the reader to enjoy. So again I say, yes, I find the novel form more prestigious. If an author takes the time to polish their chosen premise, captures my attention with well written passages and keeps me reading for more than 45,000 words - I admire that. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 490
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 10:01 am: |
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hmmm....I don't know. What you say seems true. I personally, however, prefer the short story...but that is because my attention span wavers...lmao!
cheers!
PS
I doubt if i would know this "lazy" author...I don't read commercial fiction. well not in a long, long time... |
Sisg
Veteran Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 65
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 11:39 am: |
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Linda,
I hear ya, but there is something about her dissertation and the response that has been disheartening to me. Are we not allowed to state an opinion, whether it be about a book or an event without credentials? Why must we know what Steph has written, or not written, what's published etc..to validate or discredit what she believes to be true? I, like most on this board are consumers of the written word, not professional readers (though some may boast this) and some of us are writers, and authors. Everyday we say what we like, don't like, what we consider good writing, bad writing...it's our opinion, none better than the other. We agree sometimes, and sometimes we disagree, but it is all good. Why in Steph's case must we check credentials?
BTW, I liked your statement about what the true author would do: "Whereas a true author will fill those same spaces with more intriguing attributes to the substance of the story, dig deeper, and have more depth for the reader to enjoy. "
You couldn't be more right.
BTW - I did read part II as well, and still... |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 493
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 12:24 pm: |
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linda and sisg: "Whereas a true author will fill those same spaces with more intriguing attributes to the substance of the story, dig deeper, and have more depth for the reader to enjoy. "
I would call this a question of authenticity...does "true author," in this case, mean profound? And if it is superifical is the person not an author? I say, like Steph states, an author doesn't make you a writer, and I would even go as far as saying that to be a good writer you don't have to be "deep."
I think a good writer is someone who can convey the story, ideas, etc...clearly. |
Sisg
Veteran Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 66
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 01:45 pm: |
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I suppose i believe the same Yukio. But as Linda stated "dig deeper, and have more depth for the reader to enjoy." Doesn't necessarily mean they have to be deep, but as you said "convey the story, ideas, etc...clearly." All the above would in my opinion, constitute a good writer on the right path.
And that's easier said then done...it also takes practice, reading, rewriting, reading and writing. Writing is a discipline! |
Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 41
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 06:44 pm: |
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Sisgal
I believe everyone is en-titled to their opinion. What causes me to call Steph out on hers is the way she conveyed it. Why were credentials involved, she is a writer/author. If her intent was to showcase her experience at the BEA her over view was very focused on only the AA sector and that disheartens me. This year was the first time that there was an AA pavillion (which is a big deal.) And to see her poke mockery at those who could afford the pay for the overly-expensive booth rental was tacky and tasteless. The representation of AA authors may have been mostly of a genre she dislikes, but at least they were there representing. It seems she wrote just enough to place a black-eye, then cover it over with her foundation of beliefs. Anyone who has ever attended one knows there is way more to the BEA than events and selling technigues that she didn't approve of. There is a respect factor, even among thieves. There was no need to slam some of the people she slammed. You have to admit when one starts pointing fingers and naming names that it would be advisable to pull your thick skin tighter and face the stabs you will surely receive. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 495
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 07:08 pm: |
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linda: I can appreciate what u state. There needs to be a level of respect, both for other authors and readers...In some ways, steph's comments even disparage the readers who read "commericial fiction."
By the way, I've started a thread on 'literary fic" and good writing...if possible, and interested, I would really wish u, sisgal, and others respond to the thread, for it would be useful to have an idea what each of us mean by "good writing" and "literary fiction".... |
Jmho
Veteran Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 58
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 07:43 pm: |
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Linda, aren't you doing exactly what you're condemning? I have read so many responses to her posts and most then turn right around and did exactly what they were complaining about. Why slam someone for slamming others and yet also say they should have taken the high road?
Of course, people are going to see, read and hear things differently. Does that make one's truth any more or less *truer* than the next person?
Even if Steph or any other person never write a book does that mean they can't read books and still have an opinion, either favorable or unfavorable? Do writers really expect readers who criticize the books to then write a better book?
I think those writers who can't stand the heat need to keep their butts out of the kitchen. Sorry, but it's going to get a bit hot in there sometimes.
It's also amazing to me how people read her words and read it differently and then focused on selected things. Most of what she said, many have been saying for years on this board. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 497
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, June 12, 2004 - 09:52 pm: |
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Jmho: I agree. I thought Linda's post stated similar points that Steph expressed, particularly the quality of one's writing(though their word choice is different--steph talked about an author not being a writer, while Linda talks about the profundity of characters themes, etc--I think both are making the same point)
At any rate, I've tried to state my preference for literary fiction w/o, at the same time, devaluing commercial fiction writers and consumers.
Here's my quick interpretation of Linda's posts (correct me if i'm wrong of course): How can Steph criticize folks' fiction when her writing is lacking? I think this is legitimate form of criticism. At the same time, I think that Linda can make that particular critique and at the same time accept the validity of some of Steph's points, though I haven't quite seen the latter.
jmho says:
"It's also amazing to me how people read her words and read it differently and then focused on selected things. Most of what she said, many have been saying for years on this board."
This is certainly true. It is so difficult not to revisit these same themes. Even the thread I started is rather a rehashing of past conversations.
Also, as it pertains to selection, I often think that people focus on what they don't like instead of the entire text or post. While this is useful, it is often problematic, since dissecting a "part" without the keeping the "whole" in mind often leads to a misunderstanding of both part and whole... |
Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 42
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 10:20 am: |
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Why am I slamming Steph for slamming others?
I believe that anyone who is chosing to jump in the pot and call themselves an author/writer needs to understand the business, accept the fact that it is a learning process and if possible try to educate not humiliate the author. Even when writing reviews, diatribes, essays, etc., the focus should be on the work produced, not the author.
When I see another writer/author taking the high ground, attacking the practices one uses to promote or plan events is another topic. If you don't want the books, decline, move on and have a nice day. It is not an easy chore to put together receptions, events or conferences. Too condemn those who take the time to make these functions possible is just pure hateration. (By the way-the reception started on time-the program started around eight and because over 40 authors where given time to introduce themselves it ran a little long. It did not begin at 10 as stated)
There is no need for all the cut-throat technigues that are constantly cropping up amongst authors/writers. If you want to spread gossip, that is one thing, don't sight it as factual. But, since all is fair in love and war . . . I'll fight. Steph put herself out there in the spotlight as being all that, so let the battle begin. |
Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 43
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 12:33 pm: |
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Believe it or not I am not the only person slamming Steph. Here's another one for you to read from Black Writers United post:
First of all, let's be realistic about some things. I read the missive put
out by Step and honestly it sounds bitter and non-constructive. I do not
begrudge any business savvy person their ability to create their niche in such a
large market. Amazingly, I would like to know of all the people who agree, and
even of the person who created the email, if their books are on the market,
and by all means, where the hell can we pick it up. If a person is touting
themselves to be a prolific writer there must be evidence. But alas, I am quite
sure at this point in time there is none from the person who decided to cast the
first stone.
It is easy to stand back and criticize others, especially when the person
doing the criticizing doesn't have any proof or process to show people
otherwise.
There were several major houses there with black imprints, Kensington has the
Dafina line and Random House has Striver's Row, Doubleday has Harlem Moon,
all of which were represented as well as other houses.
I wasn't going to jump into the fray here, but the bitter and biting tone of
the email did more to enrage me than it should. I am proud of anyone who has
the courage to do what it takes to put their stories out there. There is room
for everyone and every style of writing.
But what incensed me most, was when the mention of Zane, who is one of the
most open-minded and kind-hearted people I've ever met. She is willing, unlike
most people who have crossed into mainstream success, to share information and
to help other acheive the same. The earlier email written about her came off
a bitter, and uncalled for and beneath the person who wrote it.
Carl Weber, a CPA and business man, before he became a national best selling
author, should be applauded for his efforts to bring stories that would not
see the light of day in a major house. Including some local Chicago authors.
I'm going to end this now, because as much that needs to be said, I don't
need to fed into it even more. But this is disheartening and disconcerting to
put it on a group called "Black Writers United. If we can't be united and
support another's efforts to strike out on their own, the least we can do is to
keep disparaging, unkind, and unfounded remarks to ourselves.
And that's all I'm going to say about that!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 618
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 01:43 pm: |
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Linda, I have no problem with some of the things you say but - there is an area where you and I have perennially clashed. You say anyone who has jumped in the pot and chosen to call themselves an author needs to understand the business. This is true. They also need to understand that it takes more than jumping into the pot to become a writer. There's this little intrinsic element called talent, and it has nothing to do with grammar or punctuation or encouragment from others. Are you familiar with this young Asian guy who was an American idol reject? He is a terrible singer but people are buying his records because they like the fact that he is sincere and is trying his best. Jasmine, another mediocre singer on American idol kept being brought back each week because she cried and people felt sorry for her. These are examples of how the idea of talent is being corrupted. And these instances have their counterparts in the field of writing. Having an earnest desire to be a writer doesn't matter if you have no talent. Becoming a bona fide author is not like becoming a master plumber; one is a craft, the other is an art- a gift. But as you say, this is a business, and unfortunately, nowadays as long as something sells, it is promoted. So, now, people think all they need to do to be a writer is to have the desire. And they are motivated by the fact that some bad books are getting published, thanks to the fact that quantity not quality is winning the day. Why? Because the integrity of the publishing industry has been tainted by greed. So, we also have this glut of self-published books out there, the result of throngs of people deluding themselves into thinking that ambition is a substitute for ability. Is it any wonder people are complaining about the current state of the book business. Steph has a right to her rant.
But - to all those aspiring scribes out there, take heart. Cream rises to the top! If you are truly worthy of being a member of the time-honored profession of writing, success is within your grasp. And, if you're not a good writer - who knows? You might get lucky! |
Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 02:55 pm: |
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Cynique
Good point. But,I would not say that we clashed...I just forgot to add it in my response. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. LOL |
Jmho
Veteran Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 59
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 06:49 pm: |
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Linda wrote:
Why am I slamming Steph for slamming others?
This wasn't the question I asked but it's refreshing to read that you at least fully acknowledge that you are slamming Steph for voicing her opinion.
Linda wrote:
I believe that anyone who is choosing to jump in the pot and call themselves an author/writer needs to understand the business, accept the fact that it is a learning process and if possible try to educate not humiliate the author. Even when writing reviews, diatribes, essays, etc., the focus should be on the work produced, not the author.
I read Steph's response to do just that --- her overall point was the about the work. Reread the both of her two messages. And, take it ALL in context instead of pulling out sentences here and there and definitely out of context to support your slam against her opinion.
Linda wrote:
When I see another writer/author taking the high ground, attacking the practices one uses to promote or plan events is another topic. If you don't want the books, decline, move on and have a nice day. It is not an easy chore to put together receptions, events or conferences.
But does this change the facts of the matter of the problems that she saw at the BEA? Why should we totally overlook the negatives when they are as just as real as the positives, of any piece of work, receptions, events or conferences? Perhaps this is why we are even in this conversation, people note the negatives in the books, not just to complain but to make improvements but then you got people who just want to only recognize the positives and just ignore the negatives. Aren't we much more mature and sophisticated than that?
Linda wrote:
Too condemn those who take the time to make these functions possible is just pure hateration.
Well, hateration is hateration. Your hateration isn't any sweeter than that which you think came from Steph. That's my point. Why aren't you taking the higher ground? Why should some take it and the others get to take the low and high ground?
Linda wrote:
(By the way-the reception started on time-the program started around eight and because over 40 authors where given time to introduce themselves it ran a little long. It did not begin at 10 as stated)
I am really curious now, so what time do you think the program did start given all those introductions? So it wasn't 10 pm, as she stated, what time was it?
Linda wrote:
There is no need for all the cut-throat technigues that are constantly cropping up amongst authors/writers.
Why don't you see what you're doing as continuing along in the same vein? Why don't you see yourself as apart of the problem and not the solution? Or is your solution to attack the so-called attacker?
Linda wrote:
If you want to spread gossip, that is one thing, don't sight it as factual. But, since all is fair in love and war . . . I'll fight. Steph put herself out there in the spotlight as being all that, so let the battle begin.
Well, that's your opinion about her being all that, but I truly hope your armor is thicker than your skin. So far only 2 items in 2 e-mails have been refuted -- the location of previous BEAs and the fact that program didn't start at 10 though no one else has posted the exact time. Geez. Maybe we aren't as mature as writers, readers and lovers of Black literature as we claim to be or think we are.
Linda wrote in another post:
Believe it or not I am not the only person slamming Steph
Once again, at least you admit that you were slamming Steph. Do you really want me to start posting other messages from that same list who supported and agreed with what Steph's comments? Yes, there are some, but you didn't post any of those, wonder why? ROFL But, seriously, I really don't think anyone should posting other e-mails from a mailing list, especially without the writer's approval or consent. |
Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 45
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 09:51 pm: |
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Jmho
Well, let me see if I get this right. I am no better than Steph for calling her on some of her statements, yet you can presume the defending role and try to slam me.
Steph should be en-titled to her opinion, but not I.
Too all of this rhectoric I say...whatever. You are only picking out what you want to respond too. First of all, I chimed in to say this was not a fair analysis of the BEA, not just the AA sector that was involved. There were non-factual remarks made about times, places, etc. I also focused only on the fact that she should not be so quick to judge everything that happened at a function that even she said she left. As far as content of writing, I didn't get into who can write and shouldn't be out there promoting their work or how they are promoting it. I stated that this practice of knocking those that chose to spend their money to be apart of the BEA for marketing was really un-becoming. As for all the other supportive messages...look at the supporters and you will find an equal amount who were offended. So, yes I can admit that I had a few things to say about her post, I didn't agree with all of it as I stated in the beginning, though there is a small percentage of truth in some of what she said. I have a problem with her tone, her condemnation and over-all attitude. So if that is taking the low road so be it. "It's better to be down under, on the low ground with my feet to hold me steady than trying to float above with no wings."
So, post what you want, play tit-for-tat, I don't care. I still think it was written in bad taste and I stand by that. And, until I see Steph or any others who claim that they are tired of how the business (not to be confused with genre's) is going doing anything different to help change it, I will continue to voice my opinion. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 499
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 10:46 pm: |
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Jmho:
Steph's comments may have been about the work, but does her email accurately characterize the industry or the nature of literary production? Is what she asking realistic?
Isn't the number of quality novels, poems, etc..always lower than the amount of commerical fiction, poetry, non-fiction? Is there a dearth of good literature? Or is she really hating on those who are making the money? |
Jmho
Veteran Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 60
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, June 13, 2004 - 10:53 pm: |
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Linda wrote:
Well, let me see if I get this right. I am no better than Steph for calling her on some of her statements, yet you can presume the defending role and try to slam me.
First of all, I am not presuming the defending role, for anyone or anything, and secondly, I most certainly didn't slam you. If so, please show me such statement/s.
If you can't recall, I'll repost part of my entry into this thread:
Linda, aren't you doing exactly what you're condemning? I have read so many responses to her posts and most then turn right around and did exactly what they were complaining about. Why slam someone for slamming others and yet also say they should have taken the high road?
Of course, people are going to see, read and hear things differently. Does that make one's truth any more or less *truer* than the next person?
Linda wrote:
Steph should be en-titled to her opinion, but not I.
I never said that you, or anyone else, for that matter, shouldn't be entitled their an opinion. I don't see the point in slamming anyone for their opinion hence my original post. What you complained that Steph was doing you then turn around and did exactly the same thing. So how then are you any better?
Linda wrote:
You are only picking out what you want to respond too.
Aren't you doing the same? Steph wrote TWO LONG e-mails. I don't understand why you can't see that most of you're complaining about you're committing the exact same offenses. So, what's the difference? I'll tell you ... NONE.
Linda wrote:
First of all, I chimed in to say this was not a fair analysis of the BEA,
But it's HER analysis. That's my entire point. Her analysis was different from yours obviously. So, then can't she also say that your analysis is unfair? inaccurate? incomplete?
Linda wrote:
As for all the other supportive messages...look at the supporters and you will find an equal amount who were offended.
Yes, but you didn't post a supportive response to give balance. That's the point. You only posted ONE e-mail in which you started out by saying, "Believe it or not I am not the only person slamming Steph"
Linda wrote:
So, post what you want,
I will do so, just as I am certain that you will.
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Linda
Regular Poster
Username: Linda
Post Number: 46
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 12:53 am: |
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Jmho
You can count on it. LOL |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 503
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 01:59 pm: |
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Writers are said to be extremely egotistical and demanding, and they are indeed, but that does not distinguish them from anyone else.
James Baldwin
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 620
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, June 14, 2004 - 02:32 pm: |
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All great artists tend to be temperamental, probably because they are impatient with the mundanity which surrounds them, and such frustration is, of course, a manifestation of their ego. |
Obi
First Time Poster
Username: Obi
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:13 pm: |
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Someone on this thread mentioned that they were starting a literary fiction thread. Where is it? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 543
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:18 pm: |
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Obi: here is the link:http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/1255.html?1087518469 Please contribute and share... |
Obi
Newbie Poster
Username: Obi
Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 6 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 09:50 pm: |
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Thanks, I will go there and I will post. But first, I want to make on comment here.
The cross section of African American writing mirrors the cross section of American writing in general. Some of it is good, and some of it is bad. I, too, attended the BEA. In fact, I was an exhibitor there among the small presses, Penknife Press. Most of you probably missed us. I thought most of the stuff being displayed was average at best. Wild Animus comes to mind. Mainstream publishers publish what they believe readers want these days. Face it, gangster lit sells. Are these authors true writers? Yes. Are they literary writers? No, but so what? Most people aren't literary readers. They write what used to be called pulp fiction, and there is a place for it in our culture. If it's not your cup of tea, don't drink it. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 544
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 17, 2004 - 10:08 pm: |
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Obi: My sentiments exactly.
I wrote: "well..kc_trudiva who ever your friend is, has experienced the general reading public, but in black face. This is not really racial; it is "commericial" fiction, "pop" fiction" |
Blkmalereading
Regular Poster
Username: Blkmalereading
Post Number: 47
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, June 18, 2004 - 03:51 pm: |
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I think we bring to every experience our personal selves. This is what I see in this entire thread. As a writer/author/bookseller or someone else in the 'business' you probably attended and was invited to events that were of particular interest to you on a professional level.
I saw the post that Steph wrote as entertaining. It was written with a lot of wit and a sort of tongue-in-cheek point of view. It was also written as a report, a stating of the facts from this 'one' persons point of view of what they saw, heard and felt. This will defer for each person who attends any given event.
I think she did make some good facts about the BEA in general and maybe their views and feelings about their African-American imprints. I don't think she left many stones un-turned. It was a clear 'attack' on the industry and how they treat, even money making AA authors as step children or an after thought. It was as much a commentary on how the industry deals with AA authors and an exploration of the various reasons as to why this may be so? At least that is a portion of what I got from it.
But I must say from a readers point of view, it was nice to see a 'full' report about an event that many of us hear about but are not privy to attend. Some of these events may set the tone for books that the consumer will be able to read in the future.
I see the question of literary vs commercial as an important debate and one that we must not be afraid to discuss, disagree and debate about. I think it's important to do so. I think we need to set standards and understand what those standards entail.
I also continue to see the debate of 'good writing' versus other types of writing.
There is a history in African life that we are as good as.....and through out time have been able to prove this, with pride.
We have our standards: We are still proud of our Spelman girls, our Morehouse men, our Meharry, our Howard, our Fisk, who have continually produced some of our best and brightest minds and can compete with the 'larger' population in all areas. We continue to use these institutions of higher learning to prove that one point and I would hope we would be in an uproar if any of the above mentioned suddenly one day lowered their standards and said okay, come one, come all....
I also think that writers and writing comes in all sorts of forms. There are some very brillant writers of short stories. Since I'm not a writer I don't know the process that goes into that entire profession, but I've read and heard some of the best novelist say that they are not able to write a short story. They also may not be able to write a great magazine article or an essay.
I read the post as a report of what happened through one person's eyes and as a reader and consumer, I actually appreciate her honest point of view, as we are all dying to know what really happens at these events but all we usually get to hear is: I had a good time. It was the bomb. This that and another.
Maybe those who had a wonderful experience should just write a counter post or even better should of been the first out of the box to write a concise, witty and interesting piece about all the GREATNESS of BEA.
Just with this post, she has done exactly what usually happens with 'pop' fiction. A buzz starts and the next thing you know it's being passed around. If I knew her personally, I would suggest that she try to print this in some publication and get 'paid' for the effort! Since that is what some are saying, really counts!
I think we all know the person from school who can sing their behinds off! Just because they either haven't been 'discovered' or simply choose not to make that their vocation, doesn't mean that they are still not good singers.
We live in a society where we are beginning to confuse popularity, sales, numbers, money with 'goodness' or greatness.
I actually found it entertaining and interesting as the responses to it have been. If nothing else, it started a dialogue and got those who would of been closed lipped other wise to state an opposing point of view.
Now, I'm waiting for Thumper to elaborate on his feelings of The Sister's of the APF being all that! |
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