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Scullars
Newbie Poster
Username: Scullars
Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 09:17 pm: | 
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I posted this at another board, but this gets my goat :
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Have any of you heard of this new singing "soul sensation"? Basically, a 16-year old white English girl with raspy pipes, using black musicians and tracks to provide that authentic "soul" sound. I'll be the first to admit that she has a distinctive voice, very mature for her age. But she's being marketed as the "white Aretha Franklin" which I personally find insulting. As someone pointed out on another board, just because someone knows how to mimic does not make them authentic.
It seems she's being marketed this way to provide a safe R&B alternative to the white teen masses. In other words, maybe parents will accept their teenage son fantasizing about a blond who sings R&B, than, let's say, Ashanti (and I in no way hold Ashanti up as the icon for R&B music; my girls Brownstone would blow either of these singers out of the water, but alas they're no longer around). As it is, she's being promoted on VH1-Soul. Wonder if her manager will try to get her on BET or Soul Train?
I get so sick of these racial marketing ploys. If Joss Stone is to be deemed "soulful", let it be her audience who determines that, and not some myopic PR people. Let her experience and tracks speak for themselves. I luv blue-eyed soul when it's good: Hall & Oates, Annie Lenox, Teena Marie, Lisa Stansfield, as someone mentioned on another board. If Joss Stone is good, she'll prove it with her pipes, and not with her blond hair.
Just ranting here at another Elvis phenomenon...taking "black" and turning it to "green" for "white".... (BTW, don't ever mention Elvis' name around Ray Charles; man was quite bitter on Elvis during an interview I saw, and understandably so). |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 255
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 09:36 pm: |
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Scullars,
I understand and appreciate what you are saying. But Pop/R&B/Rock/Hip-Hop have for 20 years been rife with pretenders and posers of all ilk, Black and White. So what real harm would another phony-baloney do to the trite/bereft music industry?
Hey, if a White teenage Brit can belt one out like the Queen of Soul, then I say, WELCOME and BRAVO! Because we have been waiting for someone like her...hair color/texture notwithstanding...for A LONG TIME. |
Scullars
Newbie Poster
Username: Scullars
Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, May 29, 2004 - 10:10 pm: |
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ABM, good point about the 20 years of pretenders. Although I don't recall (but my memory tends to be short) any of these prior pretenders being hailed as the White (fill in the name of a Black luminary). I mean, was Justin Timberlake called the White (again fill in the name)? Was he compared to a luminary in order to establish his creds? Don't recall.
As for Joss Stone, I have heard her sing, and, in my opinion, she in no way sounds like Aretha Franklin. Hers is a husky, nicely toned voice, but hardly reaching the depths and timbre of the Queen herself. (although she can hold her own above Ashanti, IMO).
Again, it's not so much the singer that is my peeve, but the way she is being marketed. I remember feeling a similar peeve when Mariah Carey (before her true racial designation was made known), was marketed as a white girl with a black voice. That kind of racial emphasis was a turn-off, and almost made me turn her off entirely. If Joss is a good singer, she will build her own audience without the media trying to hype the race card. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 399
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 02:42 am: |
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well...i've heard the gurl sing, and I must say that all she did was yell.. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 256
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 05:25 am: |
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Scullars,
So are you saying that you would be LESS perturbed by the marketing of Joss were she a Black girl who was being tabbed simply as the "next Aretha Franklin"? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 257
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 05:31 am: |
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...or is your main problem with the Joss and her backers is that she, regardless of her ethnicity, simply does not measure up being called an "Aretha"? |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 154
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 07:16 am: |
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ABM,
You are wayy confused! On another thread you referred to Beyonce as a black Brittany Spears, when everyone knows that Brittany is the one that the media put out there as a white Janet Jackson! She even copied Janet's trade mark moves (well tried to anyway!) You put a question mark in my mind behind that one too.
Now you claim that the world has been waiting on this white imitation Aretha. My brotha are you dissing all of the wonderful new AA singers none of whom I believe have set out to be anyone other than themselves?
Scullars I agree with you, I think that the marketing/pr people are just hyping this girl cause she would be a more acceptable alternative to them than the status quo. I too am insulted that they would compare this girl to an AA singing ICON that NOONE black or white can get to. |
Scullars
Newbie Poster
Username: Scullars
Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 08:43 am: |
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Actually, Abm, I resent the hype surrounding her, which seems to stress her race (which I suspect is the marketers way of trying to give her street "cred" with r&b listeners). If they were just hyping her as a girl with a whole lot of talent, no problem. But they are trying hard to sell her as a Black-White girl (u should see her videos; it's always a telling point when a white person is singing and the ones grooving to her are all black). Also, it seems all of her CDs are retreads of old R&B songs.
And yes, comparing her to Aretha, without her having earned her stripes is an insult. When comparisons are cross-racial, there is always an underlying insult to it. It's like the marketers are trying to ride on someone else's coattails, again to establish "creds" with the other singer's audience. I know it's about the bottom line, the dollar, which tends to blind Madison Avenue to the implications of their marketing. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 259
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 09:17 am: |
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Alas, they can 'read' yet they do not 'understand'.
A_womon,
You are the one who is "confused". And when you are such, you should ask for clarification. Yes, I referred to Beyonce as a tan Brittany Spears and that is because she is essentially being marketed similarly to Spears. Spears individual stardom precedes that of Knowles, so it is wholly appropriate for me to compare them as I did.
Moreover, if you read more of what I previously posted here (instead of trying to cleverly cheery pick from amongst my prior commentary that suits your argument) you would know that I have already said Janet is clearly Brittany's predecessor. In fact, I seem to recall reading that some of Spears' current associates are former Janet staffers. (Although Janet apparently tasted up of Brittany's 'sloppy seconds' when she dated pop music's favorite girly-man Justin Timberlake. HAHA)
And I claimed no such thing about the world waiting for a "white imitation Aretha". That is complete/utter BS for you to even try to say that. What I said is if the girl can sing like Aretha, we all need to hear her sing, damn if she's White (or Brown, Yellow, Red or Blue for that matter). I am too fed up with all of these phony-@$$ singers...BLACK ones included...to pass up on one whose got some REAL chops, just because YOU don't like the fact that she's a blond.
Simply: If Joss sings BETTER than Beyonce, Ashanti, Alicia...whoever...than I'd rather hear Joss sing.
Scullars,
I appreciate how you feel. But really, what harm is being done here? If Joss is great, and we can all enjoy her talent. If she's proven to lack the 'goods' that are being ascribed to her, that will quickly be made manifest and we can all enjoy ridiculing them for the "Aretha" comparisons. And the fact that she is White will really prove her undoing.
There certainly is no diminishment done to the real Aretha Franklin either way.
Also, Baby, you know this ain't nothing new. Elvis stole from lil' Richard. Pat Boone lifted Fat's Domino. Eric Clapton has for his entire career pretended to be Jimi Hendrick and Muddy Waters. The Osmonds were created to be the White Jackson Five (fake-Michael himself Donny Osmonds freely admits to that). Vanilla Ice swiped from Mc Hammer. The list goes on/on ad infinitum. So, I guess it is difficult for me to get worked up over this because, if you have paid attention to music over the decades, you see that what apparently is being done with Joss and Aretha is very OLD NEWS. |
Scullars
Newbie Poster
Username: Scullars
Post Number: 11
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 09:32 am: |
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I agree the cross-racial marketing ploy is old news. And the point you make is exactly what I'm saying to a degree; let the audience decide. I think the marketers may be shooting themselves in the foot by making comparisons this early, b/c the singer may suffer by those comparisons. A smart marketer would have let the audience decide that she sounds like Aretha, or Gladys or Barbra Streisand, for that matter. But now, she's gonna have to prove those vocals even more so b/c the comparison to the Queen of Soul has been made.
Ironically, even some white listeners are blanching (no pun intended) at this comparison. One tongue-in-cheek poster said that obviously Joss Stone has more authentic soul than both Aretha and Gladys (who was featured with Stone on a Divas special); it took a full reading to realize he was being sarcastic. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 163
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 10:02 am: |
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ABM
There you go! Just because someone differs with your opinion you try to assign them some imagined defect in thier reasoning/thinking/understanding processes (yawn) I guess that is the burden you and all those self proclaimed geniouses like yourself must bear: you must continually let the rest of us know how much more brilliant you are!(sigh)and big YAWN)
You are entitled to like who you like, blond,blue-eyed or otherwise, singing abilities notwithstanding. That was not my point. Whether or not you love Joss' singing or you don't like it was not the point either. The point is good singer or not SHE AINT NO AREATHA. Period. And I have never said anything about not liking blond singers so Now who is reading and not understanding?
BTW Someone is always going to be getting someone else's sloppy seconds unless they are fortunate (unfortunate?) enough to meet as virgins and marry virgins and stay married to each other for life! DUH!!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 502
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 01:34 pm: |
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Why should anybody be surprised or miffed by anything having to do with how artists are marketed in the superficial world of show biz? It's all about hype because hype is what generates cash money. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 400
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 02:03 pm: |
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abm: it should be added, however, that beyonce can sing and that it was her singing and beauty that has more to do her success than her dancing. Brittany Spears, on the other hand, can not sing...it was initially her White american bubble gum looks, attributes of pop music. As A_womon has said, he is more like Janet Jackson. More recently, it has been BS' sexuality...Also, I think Destiny Child came out first in 1997. If we consider Destiny Child's success as a R&B group first and then a pop group which maintained their r&b demmographics, particulary due to the groups' changes, and especially Beyonce's triumph as song writer, then your comparison has less substance, though of course u have the right to make any comparison you wish. |
Scullars
Newbie Poster
Username: Scullars
Post Number: 16
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 02:17 pm: |
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True Cynique; in the end it's all about money. I guess time will tell if Stone will be a x-over success with both white and black audiences. Again, maybe the marketers misstepped this time, b/c I do see a small backlash. But if Stone has talent, she'll eventually build her audience no matter the color. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 265
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 07:55 pm: |
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A_womon,
Well, at least this time you didn't call me the P-word.
Cynique,
Couldn't have said it better. ALL of it is crap!
Yukio,
You are right. There WERE some differences between the Beyonce of Destiny Child and Spears. But the CURRENT Beyonce is VERY similar to her bareskinned White popstar peer. Heck! The Beyonce of today is hardly recognizable compared to her more demure (and clothed) DC manifestation. Imagewise, its almost like she's changed from the Virgin Mary to Jezebel (And she must get REALLY ashy. Because what's with all the @#$% GREASE she puts on her legs?).
Also, I know enuff about the music biz to know a real singer/songwriter when I see one...and she AIN'T one. She's maybe a slightly better singer than Spears, though I can tell when someone's voice is benefiting from some studio production wizardry. And the next great song that Beyonce 'writes' will be her FIRST one.
If Beyonce weren't pretty and didn't have very supportive, business savvy parents (And Bravo for them!), right about now she'd probably be trying to wrap up an undergraduate degree at the University of Houston. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 266
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 08:02 pm: |
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Scullars,
You are right: Its the White folks, not us Blacks, who will lay wood to Stone & Co. if she doesn't follow through on what she's alleged to be. Remember what they did to Vanilla Ice. And if Dr. Dre hadn't authenticated Eminem, Marshall Mathers would still be living a trailer park near Motown. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 169
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 30, 2004 - 09:10 pm: |
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ABM,
...apology not accepted? Add me to the broken hearts you've collected....
SIIIIIIIIIIIIKKKKKKKKEE!
Now come on, you know I didn't mean it! Besides, I didn't write out the word so only I know what it really is.  Yew Knooooooooooooooooow!!! |
Justwrite
Regular Poster
Username: Justwrite
Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, June 01, 2004 - 05:07 pm: |
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Okay,
I know I'm joining the posts a little late, BUT!
ABM, hold on, patna'! Beyonce' can sing her ass off! She's talented! Don't take that from her. Spears is a joke! She can't sing! She can't dance! Take off the makeup and you'll see she's not as fine as everyone makes her out to be. How could you EVER compare Beyonce to Spears???? That's like comparing apples...well, you know the saying.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 293
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 04:56 pm: |
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Justwrite,
See, the problem with you yungin's is you ain't got no purspektif.
I will agree Beyonce probably is a better singer than Britney (Hell! I can sing better than HER.). And she may be prettier (Though I mean, really, with all the Maybelline, silicone, wonderbras, hair extensions, etc. who, except for maybe their parents and their make-up artists, know what ANY of those chicks REALLY look like?). But Beyonce can't even dream about singing as well as Aretha, Chaka, Whitney, Roberta, Patti, Melba, Natalie, Deniece, etc. So when I witness my foks (including my daughters) argue about whose better; Beyonce, Britney, Christina, Mya, Ashanti, etc.; honestly, it makes me laugh so hard I almost hurt myself.
But I suppose I am (unfairly) judging the Beyonce's of the world on a criteria that no longer exist. See, I assume range, clarity, distinctiveness, empathy, projection, depth, irony and subtlety are the standards to which to assess a singer. Perhaps I should, instead, accept that those have now been supplanted by a Dentene smile, a flawless hairweave, a slammin' Revlon makeover, Gucci/Prada accessories and overall bootyliciousness. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 414
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 05:16 pm: |
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ABM: Perhaps, you could include other singers to your list..such as virtuosos like jill scott and alicia keys, stylists like erykah badu and angie stone, who aren't necessarily part of the mainstream pop culture(maybe ak is). These women could be considered part of the tradition that you have delineated...u can even see this tradition in groups like floetry...or even musicians and political singer and songwriter, Meshell Ndegeocello...Among the black twenty and thirtysomething generation the diversity of r&b, socalled neosoul, and even hip hop is known...Generally speaking, perhaps it is a question, as you suggest by your "yungin's" label, as well as cynique's exchange with A_womon and justwrite on another thread, that it is about generational differnences...like I said, generally speaking. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 294
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 09:41 pm: |
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Yukio,
The artists you cite are good. And I agree this may be a generational thing. But I can't put ANY of them in the Aretha & Co. class. Sorry. I just can't. And frankly, the only young artist that I have heard who MAY have the potential, though certainly not the skill/savvy, is - and this will piss off the sistahs - Christina Aguilera.
And none of them are equal to Usher. He seem to have all the skills. And after he's had some seasoning, he unlike his female peers, may become an all-timer. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 419
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 09:57 pm: |
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abm: I wouldn't put them in aretha and co. class. While CA can sing, she can not write, and her riffs are unimpressive. The women that I have listed are singers and song writers with cultural integrity in their lyrics. Also, Usher can't sing. If you want to include men the most talented as it pertains to singing, song writing, and style would be Bilal first and then musiq. I prefer d'angelo between the two, but I think bilal has a better voice, while musiq has more mainstream appeal. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 533
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, June 02, 2004 - 11:17 pm: |
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Maybe, we're really talking about apples and oranges, here. To me, a singer is someone with a good strong melliflous voice. A stylist is someone who can put a song over. A singer projects to the audience, a stylist makes the song her own. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 296
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 01:11 am: |
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Yukio,
I agree most of the ladies you cite are quality artists (although, sue me, Alicia Keys is still LEARNING to sing).
I guess the difference between when I came up and now is (Boy! That sounds like I'm old.) before the very singers were first/foremost...singers. They weren't trying to make themselves into multi-media stars. Their style was borne from their craft. Now it seems the craft is borne from their style.
For example, I think Erika Badu has a very interesting persona. But I would be damn if I had to listen to more than 10 minutes of her singing. Because to me, her voice has the charm of fingernails scratching against a chalkboard.
I mean, come on, Yukio. If ANY of your girls had to match chops with a young Gladys Knight or Stephanie Mills, they would likely wet their pants.
I like d'angelo. that is when he's not trying to do some post-Prince hack job. I don't know if I have listen to any Bilal stuff, but if/when I do, I will let you know. But if you think Musiq is a better singer than Usher, then we do have VERY different views of what constitutes quality singing. Because all I have heard of Musiq suggests that he has the vocal depth of about a thin sheet of generic one-ply toilet paper. |
Solomonjones
Regular Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 36
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 10:50 am: |
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I don't know that I'd be angry with this Joss girl personally because of the way that marketing people have chosen to position her. And I haven't heard her sing yet, either, so I'll withhold judgment on her talent level. But it seems to me that while there have been many pretenders, there have been some white artists who were genuine in their love of black music, and black folks appreciated (and still appreciate) them for that. One who immediately comes to mind is Teena Marie. To borrow Cynique's phrasing, Teena is a stylist. She's able to make a song her own.
Ironic isn't it? Black folks can accept whites who imitate or even master our artistry, but it's difficult for whites to do the same for black artists who master white artistry. Sadly, we (both blacks and whites) have come to view art through the prism of race. And while many American art forms were invented by blacks
(jazz, blues, gospel, r & b, hip hop), the reality is we've often depended on whites to pay for that art, because they were the ones with the money to buy it. Which brings us to an even more troubling dilemma. When capitalism creeps into art along with its cousin, racism, it can distort (see Hip Hop) or even destroy (see Disco and the stadium incident) black art in its various forms. And that is a loss to us all. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 299
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 12:51 pm: |
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Cynique,
I agree there CAN be some differences between a great singer and a great stylist. But I don’t (& I am not suggesting you do) think those are always mutually exclusive talents. By my standards, Ella Fitzgerald, Sarah Vaughn, Etta James, Marvin Gaye and Barbra Streisand had both wonderful singing voices and uniquely interpretive styles.
For example: Do you temember how Marvin’s more urgent, evocative version of "Grapevine" trampled the fine version that had been previously sung by Gladys Knight and the Pips (And Gladys’ is STILL pissed that Motown did that them.)?
So while I concur that when assessing singers, we should consider segregating, say, a ‘belter’ from a stylist, I also think we should consider there are some who are so supremely talented/skilled that they can not be pigeonholed solely into either classification. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 546
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 05:02 pm: |
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True dat. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 306
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 05:10 pm: |
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Cynique,
WOW! An 'unqualified' affirmation from you. That for me has gottah be a FIRST! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 424
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, June 03, 2004 - 05:29 pm: |
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abm and cynique: I agree with both of u.
I really wouldn't compare the older women with these younger woman...i just like them all, though I like them for different reasons. As far as some of the newer black r&b, I like/prefer neosoul in particular, so i like e.badu, j.scott, angie stone, etc...I don't really listen to beyonce, but I do like alicia keyes, because i do think she can sing and I like her sensibilitles. For example, in her last video, she had her and method man as a couple in the "hood" and the song's typical was conflict and love....no shooting, they were not at the club, jus a brotha in the underground economy trying to love his woman, and a sista with a dream loving her man...regula black people in love... |
Supagrl
First Time Poster
Username: Supagrl
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 08:04 pm: |
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She sounds like she is singing through her molars. Most people forget or don't realize that 99% of the great r&b (or soul) singers have a strong gospel background. There is nothing that can replace that kind of training. I don't care how many years you set in your bedroom in merry old England listening to Ree Ree, if you were not living and baptised in this music you will never be authentic. Even today the best r&b singers have a clear and distinct gospel sound, (Angie Stone, Anthony Hamilton, Kindred). |
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