| Author | Message | ||
     Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 211 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Okay, I said I would reread this to see if I was mistaken about the book, since I have come out on the wrong side of whole of Western Civilization. Though I admire Mr. Jones for his struggle and feel a natural kinship since he was born in the 50's, my original assessment still stands with one amendment: That is, I feel that the book is not horrible but not great either. It is a fair book that I would not recommend anyone not read, but I would not tell them to drop everything and run out and get it, either. The amendment is that I had stated that he was writing like Frank Yerby. He is doing his version of William Faulkner (down to writing about a county (Manchester County in Virgina) in this case). There is some good writing in the book particularlly Calvin's letter at the end. On the whole, I think, for such an ordinarily emotionally charged subject, it lacked a POV, or rather it was so understated as to have not to have been there--then again, maybe that was the POV. If he is going to continue to write about this locale I would like to see how he depicts modern life in it. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 142 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Chris, You just can't let a sleeping dog lie. Can you? | ||
| Linda Newbie Poster Username: Linda Post Number: 22 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hey Chris I'm with you on this one. I called Thumper the other night over-joyed at finally getting around to read The Known World. After about a third my interest started to turn. Jones has excellent skills, but(you are so right)the lack of pov left the story stale, especially at the end. Though I understand the undertones, I wish he had fleshed out what it was he wanted the reader too know. Henry never felt bad about his choices and never once said he was sorry to anyone. And never did another person other than his father complain. Actually these seemed to be some very happy slaves in the story. And I was pissed that Rita vanished so quickly, leaving me hanging and I am really confused by Calvin who smelled of gay, but never seemed to practice it? hmmmmmm. What really was the point of this story? | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 397 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
It's interesting how what inspires some people's praise is dismissed by others. People really do see things differently. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 283 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Linda: Slaves had happiness in their lives but they weren't happy. If you read slave narratives you'd be amazed of the normality of the slave condition for our ancestors...for many it was all we knew, so complaining about it wouldn't have been much use, unless you were about to run away, incite a riot, etc...which also happened, of course. This leads me to my question: Are you and ChrisHayden projecting your 21 century intellects on this 19th c. fiction...If slavery is a normal part of life, why would black slave owners feel any different...becaue they are black...is this not reminiscient of A_womon's thread? Remember, this is just a question and I have not read the book, but I would appreciate some insight! | ||
| Linda Newbie Poster Username: Linda Post Number: 23 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio: First of all, my reference about the slaves in The Known World were only meant for those in the story. I found it odd that not once did a slave complain about being owned by a black man, not once in the entire story. Only Henry's father seemed to have a problem with it. Now, I'm sorry if I find that hard to believe, but hey, it's strange enough being a slave so it had to be even stranger to be owned by one of your own and I know no matter how useless it may have been somebody would have brought it up sometime, other than the white people. When Fern, Maude and other slave owning negros discussed slavery throughout the novel, it was as though they had no compassion for the underlings when they were just a step away themselves. They still were obliging to the many rules of the whiteman. My answer to your question: Yes. For that era, I say yes. I think it was evident that more progression could have been made helping other blacks get to freedom rather than enslaving them for financial comfort as the white man did. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 213 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Abm: I had stated in an earlier post that I would re read the book and report if my views had changed--they had, somewhat. Jones work is better than Frank Yerby's and halfway decent Faulkner (I hate Faulkner by the way) Linda: That POV thang is it. I believe that a writer can write about anything from any POV he wants--but I can't imagine a black man writing dispassionately about slavery anymore than I can imagine a Native American writing dispassionately about the trail of tears, and Irishman writing dispassionately about the struggle for Irish liberation, a Jew writing dispassionately about Jewish persecution, etc. Maybe the intent was to heighten the monstrousness of it by presenting it so offhandedly, the Banality of Evil thang. I didn't necessarily get it. Of course there are those that will say that with his Pulitzer in hand and other ringing endorsements Mr. Jones need not care any what some in the black community think--which will be fine until he gets in front of a black audience that is not swayed by these things. I would be interested in hearing him interviewed by Bob Law or bell hooks. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 290 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Linda: My comments and questions involve no comdemnation, only curiousity. Apologizing, in other words, has no place here. Slavery in North America was institutionalized in the 1690s, so slavery in the 19th century was not strange at all, unfortunately. I agree with your answer, but "progress" for the socalled race is a heavy burden to bear. And as it is evident from our black republicans, shared socalled race often means very little when it comes to profit. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 152 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, How do you distinguish having "happiness" in one’s life from being "happy"? Actually, by the contrast you state, I wonder WHO at all is "happy". Being "happy" is a condition that is difficult to define and unique to virtually every living being. I can imagine there were many slaves who had some sense of satisfaction/contentment with their lives. I think Harriet Tubman once said she could have liberated many more slaves if she could have convinced them they were in fact enslaved. I concede that whatever feeling of happiness they had was likely perverted and circumscribed by their enslavement. But then, some would argue that many of us today who consider ourselves free and "happy" are simply being cleverly ‘bound', 'worked' and 'whipped’ in ways not wholly incongruent from those of our forebears. Linda, White people were not the sole practitioners of human slavery. White people were even the first to enslave people of African descent. Other Africans initiated that dastardly practice. Yukio’s point about viewing slavery from the perspective of the 19th Century is relevant here. I know we are inclined to differentiate White slavers from their Black peers. But it is quite possible that many Black slaveowners viewed their slaves very similarly to the way many white people viewed slaves: Slaves were simply valuable property or commodity to be used to maintain/enhance the material wealth of the slaveowner. And if that is true, it is possible that some slaves of might not view their Black captors much differently from White ones. Chris, I too would enjoy seeing/hearing Jones’ debate/defend his book with someone of Law’s or hook’s ilk. But actually, I am happy that World wasn’t written from an anti-slavery perspective. Not because I condone slavery, which of course I most certainly do not. But I think the debates/research that World will likely help engender will prove more helpful than if World was included among the standard (and often redundant) anti-slavery or Civil Right hierarchy/doctrine (much of which is largely ignore by Blacks and Whites alike). And if World is proven (or even disproven) to be a realistic glimpse of what Black slavers/slaves thought, did and experienced; then THAT is where/how the book will do the most good. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 292 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM: What I meant was, slaves experienced happiness in their, although they were not happy about their status as slaves. In other words the fact of happiness doesn't mean that they were either happy with their status as slaves or that they did not want freedom. If one reads, Philip D. Morgan's Slave Counterpoint: Black Culture in the Eighteenth-Century Chesapeake & Lowcountry, one finds that slaves loved, created families(though tenuous), congregated for church, music, and holidays, sold their produce at sunday market, etc...They were also serverely beaten, maimed, overworked, underfed, but sometimes they were not... At the same time slaves revolted, ran away, poisioned their masters and mistresses and after the Civil War, most left their former masters, even those who they felt were "good masters." This is quite complex...but not really, considering the length of New World slavery institutions and it characteristics. Their happiness was not perverted, but it was certainly circumscribed. It was regular human happiness. Instead of looking at this from a 21 century perspective and the disgust and hate one feels as an African American, consider looking through it from the perspective of a slave in the 19th century, who knew nothing else but their own experiences, and their surrounding family and kin. To do so, does not mean we accept and agree with slavery and the US, at least I don't feel so. I would assume that black slaveholders did see themselves when they enslaved their bretheren, while others did not...we are talking about human relations, folks. It is never black and white...folk are as three dimensional as we want out characters to be...Of course, black slaves saw their masters as black people, and others saw their masters as white people. All of this occurred. Slaves were not just valuable property, which is why North American slavery was so efficient, because slaves fought for and masters did allow some respite, some customary rights to slaves... I don't think black slave masters is interesting...they were a minority. Also, one can easily get caught up on the details, and forget the majority and really the big picture. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 401 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Somebody once said that happiness is so fleeting, it can be measured in moments. As for slavery, in an era where it was a fact of life, the race of the master would seemingly be irrelevant. It all boiled down to who could afford slaves and who couldn't. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 157 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, First, are you suggesting or are concerned that I argue that some Black people were "happy" being slaves? If so, please don’t trouble yourself because that is not what I assert/infer. Thanks for clarifying what you mean by slaves not being "happy" about being enslaved. I now understand/agree with what you say as history clearly proved that they wanted their freedom. But I disagree that Black-Black slavery does not bear noting. If we are going to tell the truth about slavery we should tell it all, including the parts that are not particularly flattering of us. I don’t know why you disagree that some of the happiness Black slaves enjoyed was "perverted" by slavery when virtually EVERYTHING else Black people was subject to being tainted by the relentlessly onerous nature of their circumstance. But maybe we disagree with what the word "perverted" means. I must presume that Morgan's Slave Counterpoint: Black Culture in the Eighteenth-Century Chesapeake & Lowcountry provides worthy insight into the lives of Black slaves. And will consider consulting it. But I know enuff about life to know that slaves, like all other human beings, were born into a world/time/circumstance that that was relentless ‘there’. And to survive, physically/mentally/spiritually, slaves had to find some joy within their daily lives. Some of that joy was earned among the company of each other, some of that joy was obtain via obtaining some favor from their captors and some happiness was earned in defiance of and ultimate liberation from their enslavement. | ||
| Linda Newbie Poster Username: Linda Post Number: 24 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio: You wrote: I agree with your answer, but "progress" for the socalled race is a heavy burden to bear. And as it is evident from our black republicans, shared socalled race often means very little when it comes to profit. My answer: You are right again, for the era of slavery and still today, because of that heavy burden we still are our own worst enemy. It is far and in-between where our loyalties lie. We still will exploit and degrade our race for profit, to make more and have more. As Cynique stated - It was all about the money. Those few black masters, Indian masters, etc., were not ignorant to the fact that owning property signified some stature for themselves never mind who's back it came from. Isn't it odd though that we haven't yet had the courage to say we owned anyone white. And there were white slaves, Indian slaves, etc. Here's a few questions I have: Just how far did that right for a black to own another black stretch? Did the black masters really think white slave owners treated them as equals? Did they believe that they truly owned something when it could be taken when and how it was wanted?(Augustus in the novel sure found out that paper don't count). Why couldn't the black masters buy for themselves? Were we only allowed to own our own? "Jus sumpin' to think about." | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 297 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM: No. I made neither suggestions nor have any concerns. Also, I didn't say finding out that blacks owner slaves didn't bear anything. I never denied the truth; Do recall, I searched for the title of the books on black slaveowners for the betterment of the discussion in the other thread. I said it wasn't interesting...the fact of a slaveholder doesn't change anything for me; firstly, because I knew this maybe ten years ago; secondly, I don't solely see it in black and white terms the way many folk do(Keep in mind I said many folk not you). Perhaps, you should tell me what YOU mean by perverted. As far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as happinesss, sadness, death, and life w/o it being "tainted by the relentlessly onerous nature of" one's circumstance...What you describe is life. Reading your last splash of rhetoric, I don't see any disagreement on the fundamentals, here. Well, you may know enough about life, but you could not, unless you were there or you read about it, know the life of slaves. Linda: There were few white slaves, mostly indentured servants, but this was not a life time service...and this only occurred during the late 17 and early 18th century. According to some historians, slavery was racialized by the early 18th century. According to historian Ira Berlin, the South changed from "societies with slaves" to "slave societies." Also, the native american population as already a people and organized, and of course, whites and indians had contracts... Black slaveowners property was tenuous. While they owned property, many didn't have the right to vote, though the still paid taxes. The venerable historian John Hope Franklin called free negroes quasi-free, because they never had the same rights as white men. I don't know what they believed, but as far as the law was concerned, they were not equal. | ||
| Jmho Regular Poster Username: Jmho Post Number: 45 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio wrote: This leads me to my question: Are you and ChrisHayden projecting your 21 century intellects on this 19th c. fiction...If slavery is a normal part of life, why would black slave owners feel any different...becaue they are black... This can't be forgotten when reading and discussing events that happened so long ago. In fact, I don't think we can even say that we would have done any differently. One never knows what they will do until they are 'there'. Can't sit on high saying what you wouldn't or wouldn't do if you were never (or will never be) in that situation. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 298 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Jmho: While I have am certainly a historicist, I do think there are some things that we know what we would do, but the discussion of slavery and the life of black people in the nineteenth century is not one of them. As a free black man in the South during the nineteenth century, I would HOPE that I would be doing something constructive for black folk...I really don't know...it is so difficult to attempt to see through the eyes of black folk during that moment. Even though we have access to slave narratives, history books, fiction as well as autobiographies of free people and slaves...the conditions, the mindset (whatever it was...they were various), the circumstances... it is so difficult to really understand that I can really only appreciate it. | ||
| Linda Newbie Poster Username: Linda Post Number: 25 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio Thanks for those time frames concerning white slavery and thanks for being honest in your assessment of how difficult it is to really understand the mindset of that era. But, I don't know. I really think had I been a slave that I would have had a short life regardless of what color my master was. I would have been forever trying to run, run run . . . and drag somebody with me. I would have even tried the Alice (like in the story.) She definetly wasn't crazy enough to stay enslaved. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 160 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
You are hilarious. Do you think that because you have read a book or 2 about slavery that you are expert in what ALL slaves thought, did and believed? My young brother, information and knowledge does not always equate to understanding and wisdom. First, to clarify a point: Webster defines "perverted to mean something "corrupted" or "tainted". I consider an example of perverted happiness to be a scenario where slaves are joyously celebrating the bountiful gathering of a bumper crop of cotton and corn when they are celebrating the very thing that has caused/maintained their enslavement. To be happy about the successes of the very thing that causes another to 'own' you is indeed glaringly "perverted". Now, initially I simply asked you to clarify the difference between "happiness" and being "happy" when there likely were many scenarios where slaves might have appeared to enjoy either or both emotional states (assuming the 2 differ at all to begin with). But, in your inimitable way, you inexplicably proceeded to (I can only assume) prove how slaves could never have been "happy" by describing how they were beaten, rebelled, etc., which isn't relevant because not ALL slaves were beaten and not ALL of them rebelled. Believe me, I don't need to read Morgan's "Slave Counterpoint..." to know that after witnessing the horror of what befell others slaves that defied/rebelled against their captors, other slaves quickly learned to meekly and obediently go along about their tasks and lives. And in those lives, some became what could be accurately described as being "happy". That doesn't diminish the evil of slavery and that doesn't mean they all would have not preferred to be free. But at some point we all must 'live' within the world we 'breathe (just another "splash of rhetoric" for your reading pleasure). Dude, really, you need to relax a bit. If you read my prior post, you should understand I simply surmised there might have been some scenarios where some slaves might have thought/behaved certain ways. Sure many slaves fought for their freedom. But many of them did not. Sure many Black condemned slavery and some even fought as Union soldiers. But some also supported their masters and even fought for the Confederacy. You yourself wisely noted the "complexities" of what slaves faced. So I don't understand WHAT is it we disagree about. BTW: Yukio, I have countenanced some of your intellectual puffery largely because until recently you (rather bizarrely) allowed us to think that you were female. And my innate chivalry will allow me to go only so far with a woman (Sue me, ok, I'm a chauvinist). But now that you have recently disabused me of that error, you should know that going forward I likely will no longer deal with you with kid gloves. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 218 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio and Jmho: The book was not written in the 19th century. It was written at the end of the 20th and beginning of the 21st. The author did not have to fear the retaliation of vengeful Southern plantation owners, or that his book would be banned down below the Mason Dixon Line if he diverted from the propaganda which I remember when I was young, that all the slaves were happy and carefree and enjoyed their state. All I can go by is the statements left behind by ex slaves such as Douglass and others who apparently "enjoyed" it so much that they risked life and limb to run away. Others such as Tubman who risked life and limb to go back down and rescue slaves, others, whites mostly, who set up the Underground Railroad--apparently, unlike the slavers they didn't have to go down and kidnap anybody to get them to run away. There were lots of reasons not to run away, mainly fear of what could befall you on the road and what could happen if you returned. I assume a black ex slave "enjoyed" it so much he scrimped and saved until he could buy his way out--if he was having such a jolly time, why wouldn't he spend his money on clothes, etc? You act like these people were not like us, that they didn't laugh and love and feel pain and know they were being messed over and didn't miss their family members when they were sold off or didn't trip when massa was pleasuring himself with them. I assume that such a person did not enjoy being a slave. I further assume that for such a person to turn around and then own people that he was some kind of amoral, sociopathic monster. Abm, some 180,000 African Americans fought for the North in the Civil War. The ones who supported the South voluntarily were so statistically insignigicant as to be nothing. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 219 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
All: From an interview that is posted on the Harper Collins site, Jones stated that did absolutely no research on this subject. He does not know how many there were, where they lived or how many they owned. He states: "I don't have any hard data but I'm quite certain that the numbers of black slaveowners was quite small in relation to white slaveonwers. The fact that many people--even many black people--didn't know such people existed is perhaps proof of how few their were" | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 306 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Posters, especially Troy, Thumper, and Linda: I apologize for my language. It won't happen again! ABM: Let me proceed from your BTW rhetoric...GET YOUR DICK (U KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT FOLK ALWAYS TALKIN ABOUT THEIR GOODS)OUT OF YOUR MOUTH! RIF:"Reading your last splash of rhetoric, I don't see any disagreement on the fundamentals, here." In other words, your entire post was unwarranted, idiot! ChrisHayden: I don't see how your post is incompatible with mine...my posts were balanced: stating that while there was happy moments, they did not want to be slaves. In fact, much of what you've written, I already stated...as you do, I state their resistance and accomodation. Also: The book is fiction...so my assumption would be that the Jones would try to reflect the mindset of his characters who were of the nineteenth century...this is it. Finally, I haven't read the book, but I do know a little about slavery...not what they thought, believed, etc..but how they and their masters lived, worked, and spent their leisure. Also, even though Jones didn't do any research...he knows that the slaves, masters, and the general slave society would not think with the same mindset as 21 century african americans... Good Day! | ||
| Jmho Regular Poster Username: Jmho Post Number: 47 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Chrishayden wrote: You act like these people were not like us, that they didn't laugh and love and feel pain and know they were being messed over and didn't miss their family members when they were sold off or didn't trip when massa was pleasuring himself with them. I'm not sure who this "you" you're talking to since you addressed your comments to Yukio and myself. And, I certainly don't see how this is a response to what I wrote. I didn't say a thing about anyone then, or now, laughing or not, loving or not, feeling pain or not, etc. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 169 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
First, I think we would to varying degrees agree that MUCH of the tragic/triumphant tale of the African American has been largely untold. So, what you say may provide plausible, though not necessarily accurate explanations for why so little is said/written about Black-Black owning/supporting slavery. I mean, think about it, if YOU had owned slaves or defended slavery, would YOU talk/write about it? HECKY NO! You’d likely purged any conceivable evidence of having been involved in such because you might fear that your past would taint you and all of your progeny for +100 years. Moreover, ask yourself this: How many WHITE owners of slaves are we acquainted with? Yes, we know the names of some Whites because their fame transcends the centuries (e.g., Washington, Jefferson, Vanderbilts, etc.). But, doubt that many people, even many historians, can confidently cite the names of many White people and companies who own slaves (which, BTW, may prove to be a big ‘roadblock’ in the Reparations Movement). My guess (And Yukio please relax and allow a thinking man to ‘think’.), some Blacks who owned/supported slavery picked up stakes after Emancipation, then moved on parts of the country where they could more easily disabuse themselves of and avoid every speaking/writing of and/or dealing with their sordid past. That’s at least what I would do. And really, stories, fact or fiction, citing how offend me that some Black, however great or small, might have conspired against Black liberation do rattle me one lick. Some Jews ratted out their brethren to the Nazi’s. Some Native American’s helped the ‘pale faces’ to nab other NA’s. So, hey, some of us were Nat Turners, some where Uncle Toms. I will concede you/Jones are probably right with respect to the prevalence of Black-Black slavery and/or the degree to which slaves defended/supported their own captivity. But as I said before, I think the real benefit of Jones' book likely won’t be what he wrote but rather what it might inspire you, I and countless other to review, discuss and learn about a past that made and shaped us all. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 170 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio. FINALLY! FINALLY! Some Spirit! Boy, it sure took you long enuff to go ‘ghetto’. Jeez! I was beginning to think I was conversing with an emotionless afrocentric-lesbian based Microsoft A.I. program or something. BRAVO! And ENCORE! Now, lift you head, straighten your back and tuck you nutes. May be now we can see there is indeed a ‘man’ somewhere within the ambiguous Yukio after all. | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 412 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Um - while we're on the subject, in the 21st century, I can see myself with a hunky studly male slave who I would really try to keep happy. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 307 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
All posters witness ABM's self-indulgence at its best... ABM: Your chicanery does nothing, here. Even in error, you cling to your nuts...my post only demonstrated that I know what I said and that you don't read; And, like most folk, I can ALMOST sink as low as you! Don't abUSE provocation to subterfuge your error, illiteracy, and rhetoric. If there is such as thing...a real man would admit that he was wrong...or is this bravado all about your insecurities and this site is your therapy? | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 225 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique.... I am speechless! | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 413 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Chris: Really? Why? Because you think making people happy is out of character for me. LOL? | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 173 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, Tsk. Tsk. You often remind me of a young, smart, but stubborn Black nationalist-lesbian who’s stuck in an futilely intractable condition of trying to prove you deserved to be the class valedictorian. Unlike you, I have no problem with admitting error. And if you have consistently read my myriad posts (which would benefit you in incalculable ways), you would spy many instances where I have at least conceded or considered the possibility of such (I may be ‘great’, but even I am not GOD. Hehehe!). In fact, I would gladly match the number of instances where I have on this site contritely conceded error to those of yours. Though, of course my tally would greatly exceed yours, because, unlike you, I don’t stubbornly pretend to know EVERYTHING. But, My Brother, I fear your anger now overwhelms you. Because referring to my apparent "illiteracy" is so erroneous that it is downright laughable. Because, Dude, I have pissed out more knowledge/wisdom into a reeking tavern urinal while in a drunken stupor then you’ll you will be blessed to obtain at the zenith of your psuedo-intellectual powers. BTW: I will always "cling to [my] nuts", thank you very much (and if you traveled with my ‘sack’, you would too). Though, I find it interesting that YOU have now become quite ‘interested’ in my "nads". I am beginning to wonder whether our recent discussion about brothers living on the DL struck a uniquely personal cord within you. | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 228 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique: I am imagining a big sweaty lusty bronze giant just in from the fields, a big sweaty mens with bulging--ah--thews--eyes afire with lust coming upon you in that cabin in musky dusk with the wisteria bloomin and--oh my! | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 309 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Perhaps we need judges, here. For Mr.ABM seems like the master of subterfuge...lol! ABM: NO anger, brotha...just amusement at your poor atempt to save face...tsk, tsk...stubborn...this is funny...you're still indignant, and you are still telling us/me what you know, what I know, how I feel...and you say I know everything! damn...stop masturbating for a while...so that u can be a thinkin man...all that blood in ya head seems to have immobilized you. You talk about everything but what occurred, here. You caught a heart attack, because I said that you know about life and much less about slavery...how could you if you weren't there or reluctant to do the work to learn...You know so much, you don't have to read about. Much of what you say sounds like insecurity; you seem to project your intellectual and perhaps sexual inadequacies on others(in this case the one and only) when you are challenged or you perceived you're challenged...Is this a mid-life crisis? Rather than bullshit about your knowledge and your ability to acknowledge your error elsewhere, do so here....this is the place...you can't avoid it. I called you illiterate because you rambled on about me for nothing...no challenge, but some how you believed there was disagreement... Again, consider what I wrote before your post: "Reading your last splash of rhetoric, I don't see any disagreement on the fundamentals, here." After this post you wrote: "You yourself wisely noted the "complexities" of what slaves faced. So I don't understand WHAT is it we disagree about." ITS A WRAP! GAME OVA! flip! flip! flip....LMAO! | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 414 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Chris, No field hands for me. You can't keep a studly buck happy unless he's a house nigga with free access to my boudoir. Actually, I'm gettin kind of turned on by this heated exchange between Yukio and Abm... Ah, fellas, should I get between you two and play referee? I think I have some black and white striped panties. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 314 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique: Thats funny...but i don't know if ABM is into sharing...besides, you already have us on the floor in your one bedroom... | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 174 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Dude, what cold and lonely little world have you built within that self-deluded brain of yours? "Save face"? "Save face" from what, my gender-bending friend? What "subterfuge" of mine have you proven? Certainly none that is even remotely equivalent to pretending I was a woman (for Christ Sake!). You are so obsessed with what you think you know that almost anyone who foolishly dares to respond to your commentary become helplessly embroiled in a dreaded "Yukio is smarter than you." diatribe of which there’s no liberation. I never contradicted your views of what you read about slavery. I was simply adding to the discussion of there likely enslaved people who viewed things a certain way. So I don’t know from where this incessant rant about my "intellectual and perhaps sexual inadequacies" derives. And if I have "...rambled on about me for nothing...", why do you continue to respond? I know why: Because you have this pathological condition that requires you MUST prove the other wrong...even when you don’t even disagree. And there you go YET AGRAIN obsessing over what I do with MY "head". Dude, why don’t you tend to your own "nutes" and don’t worry about mine. Otherwise, I’m gottah assume you ‘swing that way’. Which is fine...but sorry, I don’t! Haven’t you noticed that I have kidded almost every woman who posts here with mythical tales of my manhood...and yet all but you (and a rather skittish poetess who shall remain nameless) have either graceful ignored my randy attempts at humor...or have themselves joined my double entendre? And why is that: Because it’s no big deal! Most women, in some form of fashion, are hit on virtual EVERYDAY. So a little bit of flirting ain’t no biggie to them, especially when nothing will come of it. Besides, and this what you fail to see, I am never overtly lewd/lascivious in my delivery. I don’t have to be. I know how to play nicely with girls. I caught a "heart attack"? I having a "mid-life crisis"? Yukio, really, you disappoint me. Dude, really, it ain’t that serious. No one taking anything that you or I say hear THAT seriously. The people who spy this site can see that I am a silly, sophomoric brothah who probably has spent too much of his time reading dictionaries/newspapers/girlie magazines. Foks come here to get some info about books, see what kooky regulars like you and I are spouting off about, maybe buy a book, then go on their merry way. Can you believe this guy? Yukio, you continually spews out ponderously dry drivel, which serves more to confuse than enlighten, then, for the better part of 2 years pretend to be a hip-hop version of bell hooks, then you frantically lie and equivocates when your ‘true’ sex is revealed (Well, at least, I THINK you’re a dude...Honestly, I still don’t know what the @#$% you are.), now you start obsesses over another man jokingly says about his privates. And you refer to MY "insecurities"? Cynique, Feel free to join in the fray (with the zebra undies in tow, of course). I don’t know about Yukio, but I’d sure like to know how you might try to ‘penalize’ me. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 321 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
abm: read the posts...(1) much of your post which initiated this display was, it seems, a response to the assumption that we disagreed. And as the previous post demonstrates, I had already stated we did not..(2) the subterfuge is that fact that you consistently talk about yesterday, last week, last year and the year before that...about everything, as your recent post has done, but you have not address the specifics of this thread and the error in your 3:47 am post this morning...(3)My characterization of your insecurities is demonstative through your (a)persist indignation of my intelligence when I had yet to do so to you...assuming that I think I know everything, when i rarely if every pontificate about my worldly knowledge as you do...(b) in acquiesnce(sp) to my sex and your attempt to help me be a man... Instead trying to tell me what u think i think, why not ask or refer to what I've said...like I said subterfuge...let us do as the 9/11 commission and seek an independent council since you can't seem to see your fallacy! | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 322 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
THUMPER AND TROY: Please read the posts and tell us who, if not both, are in error! This is silly that a grown ass man can't read his own post and admit his error...If I have, I will admit but someone show me don't tell me... | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 415 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Abm and Yukio, I don't know about Thumper or Troy but I haven't figured out what it is that you 2 are arguing about?? Is this much ado about nothing, or what?? | ||
| A_womon Veteran Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 73 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
abm, im not taking sides in this at all but are you angry with yukio because you didn't know that he was a man for so long? i know this next thing has nothing to do with this thread however, what difference does it make if yukio never said he was a man until recently? as you said, its just a board, and who knows who someone else is really? again not taking sides, just curious. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 324 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique: It is indeed about nothing. Just middleaged man threatened by a young buck(remember). | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 175 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, Yawn! Ok, "young buck" (about whose opinion I soon may not give a f@#$), in an effort to resolve this matter and to mend some fences, I offer you a opportunity. If it is POSSIBLE for you to succinctly describe the "...specifics of this thread and the error in [my] 3:47 am post...", I will TRY to find a reason to acknowledged WHATEVER error it is I have made. A_womon, Yukio's gender-blending act is not the sole catalyst for our ongoing row, although it certainly was for me the icing on the cake. 'He' and I often argued when I thought he sat as he peed. Don't get me wrong. he appears to be a smart kid. But, sadly, his own "insecurities" compel him to 'win' every discussion for which he passionately engages. Cynique, I should probably concede that our squabbling may indeed be congruent with the title of Shakesphere's play. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 325 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM: Well brother thank u for the opportunity, but i respectfully decline. This "opportunity" seems disingenuous. Also, we agree that the exchange was "congruent with the title of Shakesphere's play." A_womon: My exchanges with abm have been pleasant and mostly fun, especially this one. I felt like I was in elementary school (for u NYer, I went to PS 57 in Spanish Harlem) or on the subway goin to an away game or walkin at midnight to the corner store (cuz the "union" was closed) in college for one of those prepackaged sandwiches and Ol E playin the dozens. At any rate, much of his characterizations of me are reflections of himself, but perhaps since he's so quick to label folk he can't see it.... The fact that both of us, not just the one and only, are reluctant to lose is relevant, here. The pattern has been that after we do these exchanges for a day or so, he often seeks a resolution, which is really a "aight this cat is not gonna give" or "whatever nigga..you know ya wrong," etc...Like this most recent resolution above. Also, when he disagrees or you don't respond when or the way his particular mood warrants, he will call u something. And this is where we part...for while I mostly focus on ideas he participates in intellectual exchanges and a fusion of humor and male bravado, leading his personal beliefs, feelings, etc...of you to enter the discussion. My "failure" to engage as he has or the way he does or when he wanted has led him to call me everything in walmart...his attitude, it seems, (note his offer for resolution), is often about things being on his terms. I'm here to learn through listening, debate, etc...but I have no desire to win, so being stubborn is one thing but to debate to "win" and spit fire has been his thing. The socalled "icing in the cake" is really a reflection of both of our records...he is invested, albeit humorously or indignantly, and i'm not...the ideas is what I enjoy. | ||
| Jmho Regular Poster Username: Jmho Post Number: 48 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Abm wrote: But, sadly, his own "insecurities" compel him to 'win' every discussion for which he passionately engages. Is this the pot calling the kettle black?  | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 229 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
My Brothers and Sisters! What about "The Known World" and Edward P. Jones? Chris "Ralph Bunche" Hayden | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 178 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Anybody, If you have the time/interest, use the "Search"(top right corner) feature on this website to read then contrast the substance, tone, diction, clarity and themes expressed in some of both Yukio’s and my posts on this website. Then judge for yourself. Because doing that may as much as anything else help you to differentiate what each of us are about...and who each of us are. Jmho, (See the paragraph above.) Chris, ??? | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 423 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Abm, how can you not be aware of how you continued to make digs at Yukio, needling him and holding him up to ridicule? Nor was this good-natured teasing; there were malicious undertones to it. And then you lectured him about standing up and exerting his manhood, not satisfied until you goaded him into lashing out at you. It's like you are offended by his ambiguity. Yes, Yukio never corrected our assumptions about him. But the lesson to be learned from this is that people should exercise caution when making assumptions. I'm curious as to why you are dwelling on this subject. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 328 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ChrisHayden: One of my objectives this summer is to read "The Known World." Then we can talk about it; I haven'read a good novel in a while, since He Sleeps.... | ||
| Passion Regular Poster Username: Passion Post Number: 29 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
I adore and respect Yukio. But I LOOOOVe ABM. That's my baby. So I wish they would stop fighting. I suspect ABM might have had a bit of a crush on Yukio when he thought Yukio was a girl. Possibly an exotic one with slanty eyes and carmel skin. Men get ticked when they discover that a beauty/hottie is really a GUY. It's that thing going on. I THINK. But I love ABM. He's my good lov'n man. And I truly always adored/respected Yukio, regardless of sex. I think both men are brilliant, sexy and attractive...and above all..."good" black men. I wish them peace and future friendship. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 329 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
passion...thank you much! You'll always have a brother, here. | ||
| Linda Regular Poster Username: Linda Post Number: 32 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio: Be sure to let Chris and I know when you have read the novel and then we shall continue our discussion. In the mean time . . . you guys need to chill, we're all family . . . lets not get it twisted. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 331 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
linda: It is in the family where u have your best and most interesting conflicts...Also, it is your experiences with your family that you learn how to deal with the drama outside the family! Also: This is so interesting. I have often thought that rather than us learning from evidence, we also transfer meaning to the evidence. This is what I think is happening, here. As far as I'm concerned, nothing has changed. I was neither angry nor do I hold any malice towards him; this exchange doesn't affect the value of his intellectual input, and I feel the same about him before this particular thread...as I said, i enjoyed giving him what he gave to me...male bravado, sh*t talkin, etc...things we do when we participate in one of our male rituals. | ||
| Thumper "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 130 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, And this was such a nice thread too...*eyebrow raised* Yukio and ABM's little "disagreement" not withstanding, this really was a nice little thread. Please continue with it. Yukio, watch your mouth. Telling ABM to put his thing in his mouth, was a little over the top. I, like the others, did not see where you and ABM really disagreed. But, what I find ironic is that the two members engaged in such a heated discussion over points in The Known World haven't even read the book! *eyebrow raised* Shouldn't you two read the book first before you all take it the debate to the barbershop level of discussion? | ||
| Carey Newbie Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 17 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
WOW, I was going to stir this pot but it's already like that day old pot of pinto beans.....THICK. It seems like when I left they were at it and I come back and they're still throwing punches. I will say that although I didn't read the post it was certainally uncharecteristic of Yukio to say what Thump wrote in his post concerning Yukio going over the top.....something about putting something in his mouth. Man, we can fight but I can't get with that....really. But as we all know my guy ABM can take you there but .......whew. Yukio has skills, there's no doubt about that and it seems that both of them have a need to "win" and that can muddle the road. But hey, if I had to pick one to go to bat with me I would be hard pressed to come up with a choice. I would however lean toward ABM because the brotha makes me laugh. Plus, I've lost my mental image of Yukio because of the recent revelations and I don't know who he is. I'd hate to be down with him and turn around and he'd flipped the script on me again, there's a trust thing that's missing. He's lost that and as we all know it's hard to get back and the fact is we/they sometimes never get it back. It's like when you find out your lover has been stepping out, something is lost..... FOREVER! Carey Carey | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 332 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Carey: Interesting post. I didn’t know there were teams. And though, it SEEMS you and others have not gotten the big picture or my point (for only Cynique and A_Womon have addressed it), I respectfully understand your position. I’ve always stated that I’m interesting in intellectual engagement, and this is what here. My language was atypical for AALBC not my personal life. I’ve used this site to engage in ideas and books, but since ABM goes to the “personal,” in fun, I did also. So, while it was unusual, please let it be known that it wasn’t that serious to me…just street talk, and I again seriously apologize to all. Thumper, Troy and Posters: Let me set the record straight as I see it or as Clair Huxtable would say, “Let the record show”: As you know, posts/posters rarely cohere with the thread, so this was the case in this episode. However, before we get to the basics, let me address my recent censure. Thumper: If I'm warned then, then so should ABM. At least I apologized and acknowledged my language prior to the engagement. I have never asked you to censor him nor am I doing so now, but if you are censoring, chastising, etc...then it should be equally distribute. Otherwise, his behavior goes undetected and assumed acceptable. Ok, let me return to this exchange: The thread pertained to CH’s recent reevaluation of TKW. I post pertained to how does one read about book whose story is embedded in the complexities of slavery in the 19th century. Linda responded, CH eventually responded, and ABM responded. He mostly agreed with one of my posts. I replied, and I think he asked for clarification of what I meant, and I replied. And we went back and forth with disagreements about the importance of black slave owners and whether or not slaves’ happiness was perverted and such, but really nothing really to disagree on. All of this brings us to the Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 03:47 am. In response to my Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 05:26 pm post, he seemed to feel like I was challenging his intellect because I stated, “Well, you may know enough about life, but you could not, unless you were there or you read about it, know the life of slaves.” While, I was not challenging his intellect, I was certainly challenging his knowledge, for I don’t think anything in the 21st century or the mid-to-late 20th century could provide any of us with an experience to really appreciate the lives, living conditions, and the basic environment of North American slavery…we can only read about it. So, the last quote was only a response to his statement: “I must presume that Morgan's Slave Counterpoint: Black Culture in the Eighteenth-Century Chesapeake & Lowcountry provides worthy insight into the lives of Black slaves. And will consider consulting it. But I know enuff about life to know that slaves, like all other human beings, were born into a world/time/circumstance that that was relentless ‘there’.” So with the assumption that I was questioning his intellect rather than the appropriateness or even usability of his life as a resource to understand slavery, he replies “You are hilarious. Do you think that because you have read a book or 2 about slavery that you are expert in what ALL slaves thought, did and believed? My young brother, information and knowledge does not always equate to understanding and wisdom.” This is error one. The throughout the post, he continues to incorrectly, with undertones of malice, tell me what I did—error two. Then, he says, “Dude, really, you need to relax a bit. If you read my prior post, you should understand I simply surmised there might have been some scenarios where some slaves might have thought/behaved certain ways.” And he continues talking about slavery and slaves, it is here, but more importantly and most illustrative, he says, “So I don't understand WHAT is it we disagree about..” Error three. Now, for the most part, his post is over, though he eventually appends a “BTW.” Before I get to the BTW, as I read the thread, I’m laughing, because he just spent a mid-length post ridiculing me as usual, but more significantly saying nothing of value…none what so ever. Remember, this post of ABM’s that I quoted is dated Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 03:47 am. Yet, his response to my post, which is dated May 11, 2004 - 05:26 pm, emphatically states: “Reading your last splash of rhetoric, I don't see any disagreement on the fundamentals, here.” In the last two years, more or less, that I have been discoursing with ABM, he has been notorious for making personal attacks, without provocation, as well as misreading my posts, as is clear from his post that I have deconstructed. So I, with respect to others, decided to give him a taste of his own medicine, as I would do if we were on the court playing one-on-one for money. The comment was less about his member and more about the assumption that I was, as he likes to do, questioning the man/person rather their ideas. To me, this is what allows him to both flirt with woman and attack people, different expressions of personal engagement. If he wants to do the latter, ie flirt, that’s his business, but his unprovoked attacks of indignation on me is my business and it should be yours if you’re going to fairly chastise me. Then in the BTW, in his “inimitable way,” he tells me that he is going to treat me like a man: “BTW: Yukio, I have countenanced some of your intellectual puffery largely because until recently you (rather bizarrely) allowed us to think that you were female. And my innate chivalry will allow me to go only so far with a woman (Sue me, ok, I'm a chauvinist). But now that you have recently disabused me of that error, you should know that going forward I likely will no longer deal with you with kid gloves.” Error four. Now, looking at the four errors, it should be clear that he is disrespectful and he misreads people’s quote and proceeds to augment his earlier indignant behavior, and this is normal for him, which has not been, btw, censured (Interestingly, is this warning because it was atypical of what has been said here or was it really something that required warning, especially since I already apologized). This is the gist…now, the rest pertains to the fact that when I pointed out his error, he didn’t apologize, and he spoke about everything he and I have discussed, etc… on other threads, but more importantly he did not address this particular thread. Consequently, I called it subterfuge. In addition, much of his responses seemed both contradictory and reflective of his own behavior…that I was reluctant to stop because I wanted to win and that I thought I knew everything. I read a lot, and I share what knowledge that I have, but whether or not I think I know everything he would has never asked, so how would he know…also, I know enough to know that whoever thinks they know everything knows nothing. His arrogance in past threads and this one is offda charts. I don’t do this. His behavior led me to, again as if we were competing on the street, point out that his proclivity to make personal attacks and assume that he was being attacked had something to do with a mid-life crisis or some insecurities, etc…but as Cyniquespeare called it this was really “Much Ado About Nothing,” though I wonder why much of his comments eventually gets into the personal sphere… At any rate, I’m not into censoring, but it would be only fair to chastise ABM for his normal behavior. Otherwise, it would be deemed acceptable. It really seems that he is unaware that he is often passively condescending and belligerent. Yukio | ||
| Carey Newbie Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 20 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Bravo Yukio, I want to be like you when I grow up. Very VERY VERY good post! Easy to read, easy to follow. Just like A_womom (I wish she would take a name )said, it's nice to be affirmed and my hats off to you. One thing you said that I might....do disagree with, you said ABM is unaware that he is often passively condescending and belligerent.....s*%t, he knows that , that part of his bag, his tools. See, it works considering his motive for being/doing the above mentioned. Got you all up in here explaining youself......I know, I know, I know thats not entirely you purpose but I'd be willing to bet that ABM is fully aware of his indiscretions, but in admiting to them he's be tipping his hold card lessoning his effectiveness in dealing with professional debator like some of the regulars that lay in wait like a lion stalking a wounded meal. Again, your post was right on and regardless if Thump or ABM acknowlegdge such my hats off to you. Some of us have a hard time fixing our mouth to say "I was wrong" or "I opologize" or "you are right". Now don't any jump left and think I'm pointing a finger at you, I am just saying in general, some have a hard time emmiting those words but that does not mean they are bad people, it simply means we/they have something to work on if they think those words are vital to open and honest discourse/discuaaions. btw, I know/feel the language in question is not your usual choice but you do a very good job when you do decide to go there . Hey, if you're going to cut'em, cut'em deep. If you pull your gun you better be ready to use it. Way to go my brotha. See, you surprised them. They were taken aback by a "women" being so foul *smile*. "how dare he say something like that" I got a kick out of that. We don't agree often (your spill is generally to long to keep my interest) but when you we I feel a responsibility to tell you so. I ain't scared. Carey Carey | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 334 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Carey: Thank U for your honesty...btw, I only recall one time that we disagreed, but lets leave that to the past. After that particular situation, I said that I would shorten my posts, as I, for the most part, have done....of course, this past post is not an example of such..lol! | ||
| Thumper "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 132 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, Yukio: I have no problems telling ABM what I need to tell him. I'm not getting on you for answering ABM on his disrespectfulness towards you. But it wasn't ABM who wrote, on his May 12, 12:12 PM post, and I quote, "ABM: Let me proceed from your BTW rhetoric...GET YOUR DICK (U KNOW WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT FOLK ALWAYS TALKIN ABOUT THEIR GOODS)OUT OF YOUR MOUTH!" Yukio, I have ran folks up a flag pole for less. I don't tolerate that type of stuff on this board. I wouldn't have expected this out of you. You are an intelligent man. I like having you around. ABM had you come all out of pocket. *LOL* You have now been baptized in the ways of Thumper's Corner. Although he talks a lot of stuff, ABM is grayhead too. He's been around the block a few times. I can't make him read or even acknowledge your posts. It's an old debating trick. I've used it myself from time to time. I've gotten caught up in it as well. So I know where you're coming from, honestly, I do. But even I have to watch my mouth, dawg. So, come on son, *giving Yukio that one arm hug* you'll get him next time. Keep your punches clean though. Alright? | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 335 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thumper: I'm not sure if you got my post, for I think your censure was misplaced, but what I think really doesn't matter at this point. And you seem quite diplomatic and supportive when you state: "I like having you around," or should I call it another warning? My point is that my behavior is consistent with ABM, besides the word d*&k…there is little difference in content. At any rate, this is your site, and like I said, I apologized before I spit fire at ABM and I said it wouldn’t happen again. Nevertheless, you SEEM to tolerate his "coming out the pocket." Posters: Since l’ve always had a crush on Clair H., Let me state again, ”Let the record show!”: Let us look at the recent past, and tell me if my behavior is any different ABM's normal behavior. Also consider that I NEVER posted on this particular thread. The thread is called “Here Yee! Here Yee!” dated April 16, 2004. His first post states, “<<trumpets!>> Come One, Come All...to polish my "Golden Member"! Ok, lets speed to where he and the Lambd, with neither provocation nor my presence, proceeded to respectfully and acceptably disrespect me. I think I was initially introduced when ABM responded to Lambd, “I don’t think Cynique is on the DL. But I agree Yukio’s "Crying Game" scenario will make you check her for an ‘Adams Apple’.” So then the innocent introduces me again, “I don't know if Omarosa uses stands when she takes a leak. But if she does, that might explain why her/Kwame's relationship was so chummy. But don't misunderstand me: There's nothing wrong with being a Drag Queen. A women, a man, a tran, (a Yukio) you can be whatever you want to 'be'. They just can't be that way with 'me'.” My other friend, also innocent, chimes in: “And leave poor Yukio alone. She aint bothered nobody lately! All he does is use a whole lot of big words and mind her own damn business. Now a guy like that don't need to be picked on all the time by the likes of you. Now leave her alone.” And then it is on. ABM is on a roll now, “I try to leave HIM alone, but SHE makes it very hard to do. HE is a very smart GAL and all. But HE should let HER hair down a tad. Hey! You think if I stop making fun of HIM SHE will introduce me to HIS foine twin SISTER named...'Yukio'?” Now, as I stated before and even Passion suggested, it sounds like the brother had a crush on me…who knows? Notice ABM’s usage of the word “fun.” Yet my “fun,” though I acknowledged its vulgarity, is unacceptable. Now let me end it on Lambd’s last post on April 23rd: “You are really cruisin, now, Abm. You bout to piss Yukio off. First you make fun of him, then you make fun of her sister. All the while making fun of him. You are a cruddy dude. For the last time leave her and his sister alone. Yukio and Yukio are just two normal guys that happen to be twin sisters.” But I guess this is acceptable since I allowed you’ll to assume I was a woman; and since I tried to suggest that in the realm of ideas men and women are equal and that one shouldn’t rely on another person’s sex and their basic identity, when critically engaging ideas that often have nothing to do with the discussion; that this biases one’s interpretation and indeed circumvents comprehension. | ||
| A_womon AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 79 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thump, Carey, Yukio, Ah Cmon Yukio, take the warning. that WUZ kina out there what you said to ABM, But on the other haLOL nd, he kept on trying to "punk you" with his remarks about your "gender bender"ing. This is my take on it. I think ABM might be a little embarrassed about the sexual references he's been throwing your way and so (as males do sometime when confronted with a situation where another male has not beat his chest, or held his (unmentionables) and loudly proclaimed his manhood) Maybe your disguise made them question their ability to judge what is male and what is female. Since the line became blurred, for however fleeting a time, now those who were fooled have to make sure that the board understands that to do this sort of thing will not be tolerated. So even though this is just a board, I guess certain lines (maybe caused by just a touch of homophobia: ie eeeeeeeeewwwwww you were flirting with a girl who is actually a guy!) have to be drawn and woe to ya soul if you cross that line. Now Carey. Do you really mean that you won't forgive Yukio for his little experiment? What real damage has he done here. I mean, none of yall took him home for pity's sake. Thumper, ABM has MORE than made his point about Yukio's disguise. Can't you tell him enough is enough? How bout it ABM! | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 337 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_womon: Don't get me wrong, thanks but no thanks. I took responsibilty and apologized for what I said prior to spitting fire, so I knew what I was doing. And, therefore, don't mind the censure. Indeed, the point is not for Thumper to ask ABM to stop disrespecting me, I don't care, the point, as my last post attempts to make clear, is that my recent behavior is ABM's normal behavior, so if you are to chastise one then chastise all...but that has been squashed, for Thumper had made his decision, identified his team, and demonstrated, at least as far as this thread is concerned it seems, whose team he's playing for, that is his right,this is "Thumper's Corner," and I respect that. It seems one can say anything about anything as long as it is camouflaged. I say to you A_womon, my dear, don't confuse, if indeed this is the case, form with content...the inside, the substance...I told ABM to stop blowin himself, and he tells posters to "polish his gold member." | ||
| Carey Newbie Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 23 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, man you just don't get it do you, you just refuse to say okay and then step ahead. I really do believe you just don't see it! A_womon sorta hit it on the head yet you even poo-poo'd her. Man, can't you see that everyone is with you man, bow your head a accept it! ABM's remarks were fuuny albiet spiced with an R rating yet on the other hand your reply could never bring forth laughter it was crude. Now let me tell you something, Thump don't usually explain himself or extent an hand like he's done to you and I'm tellin' lighten up man, laugh with us. We're not laughing at you we're laughing at ABM's or whomever has the wit to say things that make us laugh.....okay. As others have said, let you hair down brotha, jump back in there and get you some. You ain't going to explain it away or shift the blame, you put the damn dress on now take the MF off and jake up your slack for gods sake. Stop all the B'ass crying.....damn. Folks have come out in support of you but you simply wish to wallow in some B.S.. Get up man and stop that shit. So the joke was on you and ABM didn't get his hands slapped.......so what. Thump ain't on nobodys team, he's just calling it like he see's it. Come on man, your family and you need to step up and laugh with us and not constantly try to set yourself apart by playing that oh-is-me game. That mess is dead, can't you see it ain't workin' up in hur. I'm with ya brotha when your right but damn, enough is enough. Do you know how to laugh? Do you know how to as A_womon said, grab your sack and do a little dip, huh do ya? Well if you don't you'd better look around and ask somebody because your spill is gettin' old, believe that! ooohhh no, Thump said something about some green grass. A_womon, to answer your question. I really really have no problem with Yukio and he is forgiven but as the above post suggests I'm growing tierd of his crying. Carey Carey | ||
| Thumper "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Thumper Post Number: 134 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello All, Yukio, you wrote, "And you seem quite diplomatic and supportive when you state: "I like having you around," or should I call it another warning?" No, you should take it as being supportive. I did get the apology before you wrote the offending statement. But, if you apologize BEFORE you do something that you know you should not do it, then don't do it. If my memory serves me correctly, I did call ABM on that gold member statement because I did not find it cute. I don't find flirting on the board cute at all. It's really rather sad for any man to keep on and on talking about his sexual prowess. All it does is let people know that he's lacking in that department or he's insecure or something. If that was not the case, he could show it to his partner rather than telling the whole world about it. As you know, talk is cheap. Come on now Yukio, what good is it bragging about how good a man believe he is over the internet? Is that suppose to make my keyboard type better? I don't think so. I'm not warning anybody anymore about these sexual innuendos on the discussion board. The offending parties will one day try to post and then discover that they can't. Yukio, it's all good, man. Trust me. You know, I'm good for coming up with old sayings. There's a lot of wisdom in those few words that hits home. So, believe me when I say, "Not every closed eye is sleep". | ||
| Carey Newbie Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 24 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_Womon, if you read my post again you'll notice I said it's "like" when a lover is found to be stepping out it's hard to forget/trust and "sometimes", you never get it back, or something close to that. The optimum words are "like" and "sometimes". So no A_Womon I didn't say that I would never trust him again. That's funny how others read something into your posts other than what you've ACTUALLY wrote. I'm aware some thing are left for interpretation but but sometimes people read into some things that are not. Carey | ||
| A_womon AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: A_womon Post Number: 82 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hey Carey, You know typed words have their limits when it comes to clarification so maybe I did put my own spin on it. Didn't mean to take it out of context. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 338 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Carey writes(May 14, 2004 - 10:42 pm): That's funny how others read something into your posts other than what you've ACTUALLY wrote. I'm aware some thing are left for interpretation but but sometimes people read into some things that are not. Yukio writes(May 14, 2004 - 11:20 am):This is so interesting. I have often thought that rather than us learning from evidence, we also transfer meaning to the evidence. This is what I think is happening, here. As far as I'm concerned, nothing has changed. I was neither angry nor do I hold any malice towards him; this exchange doesn't affect the value of his intellectual input, and I feel the same about him before this particular thread... A_womon writes (May 15, 2004 - 12:05 am): You know typed words have their limits when it comes to clarification so maybe I did put my own spin on it. Didn't mean to take it out of context. | ||
| Carey Newbie Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 25 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thanks Thump, I've felt the same why. A little every know and then can be too much so every day is a bit embarrassing. I've invited individuals to read the board and not once have they not refered to the high school-ish comments, with dismay. I would play it off but I couldn't explain or defend it because I personally didn't approve of it. Now I'm sure someone is going to scratch around in the archieve and pull up a comment I may have made they may fall into the area of flirtation but not to any degree of which I am sure we all are talking about. We/they know who the guilty parties are so I hope we can drop this in file 13. I'm going to have to start calling you Chief Thump because it seems like you're always putting out fires. Carey | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 339 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thumper and Carey: Gotcha! As I said earlier, I'll be back soon, for a legitimate ...*eyebrow raised* conversation on The Known World. Maybe Julyish cheers BTW Since i've been "baptized" i felt like i could use one of ya trademarks...lol! | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 232 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
And, speaking of Edward P. Jones: The Africana QA: Novelist Edward P. Jones Editor's Note: This interview was conducted before the National Book Awards Ceremony on November 19, 2003. Edward P. Jones was a finalist for his novel, The Known World. Shirley Hazzard won for her novel, The Great Fire. The Known World, Jones' second book, takes place on a plantation run by a black slaveowner. Clearly this is a writer who doesn't mind making waves. Email Letter to the Editor By James Hannaham That a 53-year-old man can keep an entire county circa 1855 inside his head without flipping through a history book is surprising enough. It suggests that in certain respects 2003 isn't as different from 1855 as one might think. That Edward P. Jones gives each of the many characters in his novel, The Known World, intricate and idiosyncratic lives is more unusual still. Add to these the fact that the Washington DC native was raised dirt poor by an illiterate hotel maid and restaurant worker, has never written consistently, choosing instead to work everything out in his head before sitting down to write. Given his day job summarizing business articles for low pay, Jones begins to sound like one of those outsider artists who works as a janitor while secretly creating sensational, perverse masterpieces in his attic. The Known World brings to light a real forgotten (or perhaps suppressed) corner of antebellum history. It takes place on a plantation run by a black slaveowner and describes the unraveling of a multitude of complicated relationships after its proprietor, Henry Townsend, passes away. As wonderfully problematic and fascinating as Jones' Faulkneresque, neo-Modernist novel is, it still might give one pause that so many (predominantly white) critics are falling over themselves to praise it, perhaps for the wrong reasons: its "understatement," "quiet rage," and status as "a harrowing tale that scarcely ever raises its voice." On the surface, it sounds like the hype could be fueled by liberal guilt or perhaps by the publishing industry's glee at finding a way to fire their fact checking departments. It would be easy to criticize Jones for a lack of scholarly rigor, but the neo-slavery novel, from Ishmael Reed's Flight to Canada to Toni Morrison's Beloved, has always found part of its mission in undermining its own historical authority, wary of imitating you-know-who. If you expect Edward P. Jones himself to explain it all to you, you're out of luck. Ask what you think is a relatively simple question about the genesis of the book (partially inspired by the Bible, perhaps?) and Jones gives vague answers that put you in mind of Being There's Chauncy Gardner. As in real life, much will remain unknown about the conception of The Known World. Still, Jones' cipherdom can only mean wonderful things for the book's mystique and buzz. You've been nominated for the NBA once before. How do you feel about your chances this time out? Zero chances. What makes you say that? I just know it's zero chances. The other people are very good writers. It's my feeling and my belief. I'm never very good with these things anyway. What will you do if you win? I'm not going to do anything because I'm not going to win. It's like asking, "What will you do when you're crowned King of England?" Was there a specific incidence of a black slaveowner that inspired The Known World? No. I heard about black slave ownership when I was in college, but I don't remember exactly how, whether I heard through a professor, or read it in a footnote. I learned about it when I was in college and I didn't do anything, then I thought about doing a novel but I didn't read any books or anything to remind me of it. I took that fact from college and made that a jumping off point. The people in the book are wholly fictional. In passing, one character mentions President Fillmore. But he had no lines. The entire book and everyone in the county are entirely out of my imagination. People don't want to give you credit for having an imagination. There are people with fertile imaginations and I happen to be one of them. How long did it take to write the book? People don't seem to want to understand that writing is also working it out in your brain, so in actuality it was about ten years. But the physical act of sitting down and writing it took about six months. Marquez may have taken 20 years thinking of 100 Years of Solitude, but when he sat down it didn't take him that long. That's certainly what happened to me. I was living my life and I had this day job. Why did it appeal to you to imagine the story of a black slaveowner? I don't think there is appeal. You come across an image, something that triggers something. It isn't as if you go hunting for a subject, something just sprouts up in your brain. I think it might have been the image of Henry Townsend on his deathbed. It's like all of a sudden it comes in to your brain — a sound outside, something on the radio, a memory, all that comes together and you see Henry Townsend on his deathbed. I wasn't searching for something. I was at the end of writing the first book and all of a sudden these other things came into my head. The tone of the book is very specific. Can you talk about how and why you chose to present this material in the way you did? I guess my sense is that slavery has emotions that come with it and I didn't need to overlay that with my own sense of "neon language," as I call it. I wanted to lay out the story in a very quiet manner. I felt that what people were going through in the novel was emotion enough and that the story would provide that. Because there were so many characters, I didn't want to stay with one person all the way through and make it the story of one person. I felt the obligation to tell the story of everyone in that county, which called for a God's eye view. When you're dealing with a lot of people, you can't do first person and writing in second person I've always found rather phony. I think I probably was going for something, but I can't put it into words. It's conscious and yet it's not conscious. Like I need to do this. [At first] I thought it was going to stay stuck in 1855. Because I was writing 150 years after the central events happened, I felt that I could take readers forward into the future sometimes. I felt this compulsion to shoot forward, since I knew when these people were born, I knew when they would die and in order to tell their stories I had to say what would happen down the line. Speaking of God's eye views, what is your religious background? I was baptized Catholic, but I fell away from that at 12 or 13. I started picking it up in college and then lost it again. My father was Catholic, my mother was Baptist. I found myself writing a lot about people who are, but not in any way stepping on their religion because I'm always sensitive about people believing what they believe. What other books did you draw inspiration from when you were writing The Known World? I read practically nothing. I have my own ideas about Henry Townsend, but I'd rather just hear you talk about him. I wish I had been taking notes when I started thinking of all these people. I just started with this man who is dying and probably at once I began to have images of these people. I wanted to ask how a person would get into a situation where he contributes to his own oppression. Even if you are a black slaveowner you are fostering a system that keeps you down. I didn't have any sort of conscious thing, I just went with the character. I wanted to present him and how he got into that situation. Originally, [white plantation owner] William Robbins didn't have as big a role and I figured I needed to find a way to justify [Henry's slaveowning] so I made Henry his protege. But I think [Henry bought] into this American dream and for a lot of people its the very opposite, [and] grabbing it meant stepping over other people to get there. Most readers of are very attached to the idea that "historical fiction" achieve some kind of verisimilitude, be it emotional or factual or whatever. What are your thoughts about that? I went for the emotional, the character. If I say that it's 1855 Virginia, then you'll believe me until I say something that contradicts that. Until I have someone look at a watch that wasn't invented until 1925. If you tell the reader, then the reader believes and your job is to always make it seem that way. It's lying, but lying in order to tell the bigger truth of the whole book. I felt I could do that. I had all these notes and I didn't even bother to look at all the notes I had. First published: November 25, 2003 About the Author James Hannaham is an MFA candidate at the University of Texas, Austin. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 340 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
yes, yes...this is what i was talkin about...making the reader feel and see the world in 19th c. america.... c u! | ||
| Chrishayden "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Chrishayden Post Number: 233 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio: How could he accurately do that if he did no research? | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 426 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Edward Jones has achieved what every author dreams of doing, and he did it without going through a lot of changes. I'm glad for him. How much research was necessary? Approaching this obscure subject was like writing sci-fi. Jones just used his imagination since there probably was no typical scenario for blacks enslaving other blacks. Has anybody challenged the accuracy of his novel and disproved anything he wrote? | ||
| Bookgirl AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Bookgirl Post Number: 86 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Dang; readng this post made my eyes tired and my head hurt. LOL I have to admit that I am a lurker. I have been reading these boards for a few years now and not saying a word; just noting books that I might be interested in and enjoying the conversations between people who love books. Then, late last year; I started posting and was having a good 'ole time until some of the dog figts (like the one above) made me decide that my blood pressure and my peace of mind could do without some of the "mess" I was reading. So for with the exception of a few comments here and there; I kinda keep quiet. I'm glad I have but I just had to say something (my sistahgurl thing) about this dog fight that took place this week. I said all of that to say this. It ain't that serious folks. It's just an internet discussion board. Everybody has opinions and we are blessed to have this outlet to express them but in doing so we need to remember to respect one another's feelings.....not get so dang personal and leave your egos at the door. Thumper's Corner is really a great forum; but don't take it so serious that we end up fighting with one another like we ain't got no home training. So that's my fiddy cents if anybody cares..... | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 341 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ChrisHayden: He used his imagination. Besides, the fact of the matter is, we really only know our immediate cultural and social local experience. This is the similar, but to a lesser degree, as when a person in their 90s talks about the Great Depression. Now, there are 100s of books on the great depression, but a person's reflection of what they thought and understood and experienced at the time will be quite different from what historians will say, for the historians have the ability to see the period as onject of study... | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 342 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
oops...tryin to make it to the rjones jr. fight...the last few word of the last sentence should say,"to see the period as an object of study".... | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 184 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Oh come on now. You had to know that THIS was coming! First, there is nor ever was any harm intended here on my part. (And I will presume the same of Yukio.) If I didn't enjoy and value my exchanges with Yukio, I would have avoided them altogether. But I do want to TRY to clarify my view of what has been discussed. Slaphappy Slaves... You know, this WHOLE diatribe was engendered by Yukio insistence on arguing with me about something I merely speculated about slaves. I simply asked him to distinguish what is "happiness" vs. a "happy" slave. Then I surmise some possible scenarios whereby a slave might at the very least affect some form of "happiness", albeit perverted via the scourge of slavery. I still cannot phantom why THAT was intellectually inappropriate. But Yukio then began to reference book(s), which, I can only assume, contradicted my suppositions. This didn't make sense to me because 1) I was not trying to assert or refute any historical facts about slavery. I was only speculating on what might have happened under certain situations based on my understanding of human behavior/history and 2) Any book(s) about slavery that he cite, not matter its quality, will be constricted by the inherent limits of its author(s), subject matter, supporting docs, etc. Moreover, how does one fully gauge whether and or to what degree ANY human being, dead or living, is "happy", anyway? His-n-Her's Yukios... Now, all of the theories about the reasons for the barbs I've hurled at Yukio are interesting, and funny. But I regret they are all WRONG. No, believe it or not, I was not particularly bothered by his sex/gender switcheroo. Actually, if any thing, I found (and still FIND) that to be HILARIOUS. And to address the most bizarre theory asserted: No, I never had any erotic designs for the 'woman' I once thought Yukio was. If anything, I imagined 'her' to be a bit staid and aloof for my tastes. (I am an Aries. I dig a chick with some FIRE!) No, if anything, I was put-off by his inane rationalizations for the gender thing. If he had responded to the consternation surrounding the truth of his 'gonads' by simply saying something to the effect of "Dang. I didn't know you all were thinking THAT. And I didn't think that to be such a big deal. But I am sorry for the confusion. K?" I would likely have said little if anything about it. But, he instead proceeded to spin the matter into some feministic laboratory experiment of which he was this prescient professor and we were his clueless lab rats. Moreover, he managed to (rather cleverly) orchestrate the ensuing discussion both to disingenuously garner the empathy/goodwill of the female Thumpites and to subtly blame others for the confusion he himself had caused. It is for THOSE reasons - not his alleged "exotic" "slanted eyes", Passion. HAHA! - that I continued to quip about what he did. Still, I will cop to part of the blame here. I've always been the kid that others have had to blare, "Ok, man. That was fun. Now can you CUT THAT @#$% OUT?" Yukio's gender-bending episode was just too fraught with comedic material for me to pass up. So I indulged. Ok, I over-indulged. Yep, like any joker, sometimes I carry the jokes go too far. And for that I apologize. Pocket Pool... First, I am no less (or more) secure about my "manhood" than most men, I suppose. Again, I just like to joke. And sex is convenient fodder for such. So I guess if I am guilty of anything it is of using sexual innuendo to fuel an amateur comedy bit. I honestly think if I had been patently told by the twin T's or the lady posters to knock it off, I am sure I would have. I have simply tried to proffer a humorous bridge across the sexual divide. Because let's be real: No matter the place, time and circumstance, sex/gender is ALWAYS that 1,000 lb gorilla that enters EVERY room - real/imagined/cyber - where any man/woman meets. I have just tried to poke fun at that restless 'Magilla'. Yukio, you should consider a trite but true expression, "Sometimes its not WHAT you say. It is HOW you say it." It would benefit you to learn that it is difficult for people to scold you...when they are laughing at something you said. The difference between your lewd outbursts and my own is that mine are rarely if ever malicious or overtly and grossly lewd. I doubt that I have ever explicitly expressed the d' of p' words here. Actually, I seldom use any profanity here. In those instances where I am inclined to swear, I might use an assortment of indecipherable characters instead, allowing the reader to decide for him/herself what I may be saying (or to simply move on to something else). People appreciate that. They are grown. And they probably cus themselves. But I try to respect the probability that they may not want to see the actual words littering their reading. Also, though some won't readily admit this: Most foks LIKE sexy commentary/storylines. (That is why so many have Zane-on-the-brain.) Still, they want at some subtlety/humor in sexual/erotic media to takes some of the edge off the material. Thus, if I have not, at least recently, been scolded for my sophomoric antics it is likely at least in part due to it being clear that I am at least trying to be FUNNY, that I am at least trying to entertain (even if at the same time naughty). And people appreciate when someone is trying to entertain them...even if/when they fail, as I often do. But there's no point to being a heel. So ok, to avoid future havoc, I will sincerely TRY to curb the randy humor. Well, at least while visiting Thumper's Corner. (Hey, you know what? Maybe I'll start a website geared to 'spewing out' the legendary details of my "Platinum Member". Think it will catch on?) Knowledge isn't Wisdom... Yukio, you say a lot of things that in of themselves appear informed and reasonable, but, to a discerning eye, much of it is downright nonsensical. But you pull off your intellectual routine via obfuscating a lot of your cant in so much pseudo-intellectual claptrap that most people probably either confusing nod their heads in agreement with what you say or they smartly avoid responding to you for fear of tumbling down you rhetorical rabbit hole. I, however, have mistakenly tried to at least distill some merit from your verbosity. But, alas, I have failed, largely because you often consider any mere question of what you say to be an affront to your intellectual prowess. And thus, here we are. I agree with what has been suggested by others: Yukio and I are 2 smarty-pants know-it-alls who are hell-bent on winning any argument. I will at least cop to that. The diff' betwixt him and myself is I don't take things as seriously as he does. I'm not teaching a graduate-level African American Studies course here. I am simply offering my (VOLUMINOUS) opinions, which have varying degrees of veracity, grounding and seriousness. I am not sure I accept being called "belligerent", though I suppose that for others to decide. But I can see how some might find my act "condescending". That, I suppose, may at times be a valid sentiment. I, however, often find that one who is inclined to call another 'condescending' is secretly intimidated and/or flummoxed by what that other person says or how he or she says it. Yukio, you are obviously an educated person. And you appear to be earnest/sincere. But you seem to often lack discernment and perspective. Simply, there are some things about being a person...about being a man that you have yet to learn (and, frankly, some of that might be best achieved via acquiring a wife/kids). I hope that during the course of your scholarly travels that you do not become so awash amid "ideas" and "intellectual exchanges" that you fail to pick up some real understanding and wisdom along the way. Because "ideas" don't come from the ether...they come from the thoughts, words and deeds of real, living/breathing and flawed human beings. BTW: Thumper, unlike, Yukio, I HAVE read The Known World. My very first posts on the subject would reveal that. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 346 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM: In the context of this environment, I will only say, that we can agree to disagree, though we didn't disagree. It is so strange that I keep repeating that and you still think i was arguing with you. From the above comments that you and others make, my thought don't have anything to do with my manhood, etc...this has been my slogan all along. Good Day | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 347 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
oops...in a rush to avoid writing a dissertation...i didn't complete my thoughts...lets try this again: The substance of my posts have very little to do with my character, sex, etc,for I focus on the object of analysis rather than myself...though interestingly, many attempt to read such into my posts...Yet, if i've had a slogan it has been not to do so. Now, as it pertains to one's intelligence and what one need to do to be a better "man," lets us just hope life, love, and whoever our God is help us fulfill our potential to be the best human we can be. ABM, thanks for your personal advice...if I ever think I'll need it, I rush to AALBC, print it out, post in all my rooms(2), and share with all the shems I know...thank you..you MAN'S MAN! | ||
| Carey Regular Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 30 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio, you obviously were not listening or simply don't get it. When you write, "my thought don't have anything to do with my manhood, etc....", you are wrong, they most certainally DO! Listen young man listen. Listen not to utter some verbose quasi intellectual reply but listen, as you so often repeat, to learn a little something about being a black man or should I just say a man! As you well know age or your birth sex has little to do with being a MAN, we all have sat, listened and learned how to be one from various venues, individuals and experiences. You are blessed to have run into a vehicle that might move you along this path if you will only not walk into that mouse trap, the one that lets the mouse run in but not out. Listen my son LISTEN. I man told me one time that just because a person directs something your way does not mean you have to reply. Because if you believe that you must reply, you may not be equiped to deliver the proper response thus forcing yourself or your ego to except it as the thruth reinforcing that idea or utterance you unwisely let loose and bingo, you've fooled no one but yourself and have learned nothing. Carey Carey | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 186 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Yukio: "The substance of my posts have very little to do with my character, sex, etc," ABM: Then, My Brother, whence do they spring forth? MAR's? Yukio: "I focus on the object of analysis rather than myself...though interestingly, many attempt to read such into my posts." ABM: I understand. But you are, I presume, a human being. And WHATEVER "analysis" you review, perform and/or used will be shaped/colored via the prism of your own personal life journey. Look, Yukio. No matter the sources of your knowledge, there are likely a myriad very credible countervailing viewpoints. That is why, no matter what we see/read/think, ultimately we must draw our conclusions that are based at least in part who/what we are. Yukio: "Now, as it pertains to one's intelligence and what one need to do to be a better "man," lets us just hope life, love, and whoever our God is help us fulfill our potential to be the best human we can be." ABM: Well said. With THAT I concur wholeheartedly. Yukio: "ABM, thanks for your personal advice...if I ever think I'll need it, I rush to AALBC, print it out, post in all my rooms(2), and share with all the shems I know...thank you..you MAN'S MAN!" ABM: Dang! That's got a "Down Low" joke written all over it. But, alas, I shall abstain. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 187 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Carey, This discussion with Yukio reminds me of something I once heard former coach Pat Riley say after his Knicks had, yet again, been defeated by Michael Jordan's Bulls in a '90's NBA playoffs series: "No matter how hard you fight, sometimes the other guy is just 'better'...and you've got to go home." | ||
| Carey Regular Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 31 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM, am ducking? | ||
| Passion Regular Poster Username: Passion Post Number: 31 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
ABM...I love and enjoy you tremendously. I would kill to know who you really are. You're definitely some kind of author/artist. Perhaps even one whose work I can't stand. For instance, I would die if you turn out to be John Edgar Wideman!!! But anyway, I adore you, King. ____________________________ THE KNOWN WORLD: I think "The Known World" is a brilliant book...and one of the most useful that's ever been written in the canon of AA literature. The main point of the book has nothing to do with slavery. The title tells it all. The (KNOWN) World. The main point IS...that most people are the same human...and that most humans will take part in the same "social standards", "mores and folkways"...blindly following the leader...as the society dictates. Human desire for "status/acceptance" transcends race and color...and blacks have never seriously tried to impose their own identity as "the norm". They've always tried to compete with Whites for white markers...within the confines of WHITE normalcy. Hence the conking of the hair..the recent purchases of blue eyes...the constant bitterness in black males--that they haven't been allowed to practice "patriarchal rites" on either black or white women...as their white "father figure" has been allowed to--because HE is free. We blacks in America don't want African religion and topless mothers...we want CHRISTIANITY and decent, buttoned up Victorian mothers with orange/yellow faces and proper diction. I'm not judging. I'm just showing that blacks...today....value and desire the White ideal of what is normal...not because they're bad people...but because they have been "acculturated" and raised by a White Sponsoring Society that hated them and their blackness. The book points out that slavery was considered normal...and as Harriet Tubman and others have taught us....MOST BLACKS thought that slavery was a natural condition for black people--they believed in their inherent inferiority---and most blacks were themselves, without realizing it, white supremacists by default of being born into and raised in a white racist society that taught ALL its inhabitants to be "white supremacist". This has not gone away, as was the real point Jones sought to make. The entire Holocaust in Germany, the other one (unreported) in the Belgian Congo were able to take place....because those WHOLE ENTIRE SOCIETIES believed and accepted the doctrines regarding humanity that they did. Those were good christian people...everyday hardworking folks...who joined/banded together to ERADICATE something that everyone understood was against the society's "progress"...and don't forget...that even the victims, in most cases, saw themselves as "less than" the people who were bringing judgement. Blacks as 1/5 human, as the book shows us, was like a mass hallucination--everybody believed it! Even the blacks. And could blacks not see themselves as inferior? They had no real knowledge of their history as a people outside the plantation. They had no language of their own...no names that were not "borrowed" from the superior whites....they could not read, write or count money. They were taught that God loved white people more...and they had no free space to assert their own beauty. This is why, lacking any Euro indications of physical beauty, the slaves created the most uniquely beautiful music the world has ever known...which much later became recorded as hymnals/moans and jazz and the blues. So how could they not believe that they were born to be slaves? If Linda would recall Harriett Tubman's comment, "I had to CONVINCE the slaves that they were slaves"....then she would realize why, in the book, nobody's too concerned with a black man owning slaves. Many blacks probably would have seen him as "the man". Dear Linda...look around you....right now today, the most respected/cheered black men in the community are "Pimp daddy's" who make millions off blacks...rapping and selling us hip hop culture.....or Michael Jackson, a black man who turned WHITE and aquired lily white children. Few blacks today have any racial solidarity....we all want MONEY. Bling-bling. We will cut the throat of other blacks...pit women against each other, sell drugs, whatever.....to attain the mansion, the blond wife and the STATUS of.......a successful white person. And after we make it up there...all the other blacks will applaud us. Because this is.....the KNOWN world. It's all we know. When slavery ended in the mid 1800's...MANY slaves chose to remain slaves and to stay behind with their masters. Not only that...but I was reading a bunch of slave narratives--interviews conducted in the 1920's--inwhich some of the older blacks were complaining that life was "better" in slavery days. Blacks in South Africa right now...are complaining that they had better options during apartheid. To this day....MOST blacks buy into the dominant culture's ideas of beauty. It's the SAME EXACT mass-cultural thinking exhibited in the novel. The black women today mostly wear Eurocentric relaxed hairdos...and that's because most black men (are raised in a Eurocentric society/culture and therefore) desire any kind of female with lighter skin, straighter hair, slender features.....anything but a WEST AFRICAN type of beauty. Even black men who insist they love black women...are really looking to marry Halle Berry as opposed to India Arie, Grace Jones, Venus and Serena...all of whom greatly resemble West African Queens. In other words, when we praise a black woman for being "beautiful"....she's rarely black, but an imitation--a watering down-- of blackness. We almost never see a man married to a woman who looks like Alek Wek or a purely black woman...because.....it's not AMERICAN to "value" and breed THOSE LOOKS, THAT COLOR. And a black man in this culture...is also an AMERICAN...not just black. Hence his seeking of what is "acceptable" by his master's standard. You will find the same in Post-Colonial Africa...but not in Black Imperialist Africa. In this way, we can see the validity and truth of the novel. Even with the shackles off, most blacks worldwide remain in a state of delusional "normalcy". If we are truly honest with ourselves and truly look at the civil rights movement, the fight against segregation and the Jim Crow laws.....black people were NEVER seeking "equality for blacks" or trying to establish a new social order based on human equality.... they were merely seeking the "equal right" to practice/join the existing White Supremacist Society....to walk in the white man's shoes rather than be kicked by them.... WE Blacks have proven to be just as hateful of "poor" black people, just as worshipful of white culture, just as WHITE.....I said: "just as White".....as the White slavemasters that raised us and taught us...on plantations for 500 years. ***This is NORMAL human response. Human beings (raised up together no matter what the conditions)...mimic the authority and values of those humans that were in charge. The Known World quite glaringly points that out. The American dream is to be a rich, white man with a blond wife and pretty white children. Whether you're Latin, Asian, black or an authentic white person....that is the dream of MOST, not all, but MOST Americans. Although in "people of color"...it's usually subconcious, which is why they're so torn and conflicted. You have seen Yukio and I fight over his idea of "who is black"...but you've never seen Yukio admitt that his standard for blackness (the so called African diaspora with its endless shades)...is the EXACT...the EXACT same one that was...."forced"......on his black ancestors by the White Slavemaster. Nowhere in his standard for determining blackness is respect or acknowledgement of the edict/will of black free people and black social cultures of non-enslaved black peoples. Because this slave/colonialist idea that ANYBODY can be a black person (that's how little they're valued)...is the "normal", "conditioned", ONGOING experience of the children of the former slaves in America...it becomes the stock from which we make our melting pot. And in fact, it seems so normal to us...because it's our KNOWN world. Therefore, because it seems "normal" and we've been "conditioned" to accept it--we continue to have no qualms about losing more and more of our blackness, because....no matter how much blackness we lose......by the white slavemaster's rules...we can still be called black...and receive the "status" of being COOL...without having to really BE black. Which, in turn, greatly benefits White Supremacy, because it removes blackness as a reality and threat. Do you see? This thinking in itself is self-destructive and totally disrespectful of those humans whose skin/bodies are black, especially because of the very real caste systems present---lightskin more valued than dark---the two, nowhere on earth, get along, because one (the light/mixed) has been created by invaders solely to make the authentic less visible and without a voice, without a presence. As though it's perfectly normal behavior. Just like the people in THE KNOWN WORLD. The society...is the society. Regardless of color...we are PART of the society. The Known World is a brilliant novel...because it shows just how HUMAN black people really are. | ||
| Passion Regular Poster Username: Passion Post Number: 32 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
YUKIO....I am not attacking you in my post. I truly respect and admire you and everything you are and what you espouse. I was just using one of our long running points of contention to hightlight one of the major themes in THE KNOWN WORLD. The "borrowing" of white ideas...and then, after so many hundred years...blacks believing that these were their own ideas. Much like people think Swahili is an African language, which it's not. | ||
| Carey Regular Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 32 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Passion my dear, you too have grown. No longer are your posts filled with the spices of venum that propeled your exit. although they are still filled with a finger pointed edge, you are moving forward. Now if you can teach that lust of yours the proper educate of an open board we'd be cruisin' . I know the saying about taking something to water...but lets keep hope alive *lol*. Carey | ||
| Passion Regular Poster Username: Passion Post Number: 33 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Dear Carey: "Thanks, daddy." | ||
| Passion Regular Poster Username: Passion Post Number: 34 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello A_FUTON, The lead character in my new novel is "lightskinned with green eyes"...her mother's prejudiced against her for coming out "too light", a subplot...and the book is definitely all about black beauty...celebrating EVERY shade of the diaspora...as RooAmber discovers that she was once a beautiful charcoal black colored princess--the one who has the great epic love story in the book. She also discovers that she was once Queenie Hampton...a dark chocolate fudge colored slave. The idea of the book is to remind this gorgeous lightskinned beauty of her link to African women. As for my personal life: My memoirs, "Diary of a Lost Girl" come out in Feb. 2005 They're now listed for PRE-ORDER at Amazon.com You can buy a copy and read about my life...it's really quite fascinating. AFTER THIS POST, HOWEVER....I will never reply to you or speak to you again...so put in your pit bull teeth and knock yourself out. I won't respond or take part. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 348 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Passion, I'll have to return to your comments via email. Carey: As my man Al Pacino says, "Everytime I try to get out, they keep pullin me back in!" You're talking about manhood, and I am not. I got what you said and appreciate and respect it, but I wont silence myself to prove to you and whoever that I'm a man. In other words, I would have been more amenable to you and acceptable if I would have not responded to ABM...Are we discussing books and/or agreeing/disagreeing on ideas OR measuring one's manhood/womanhood by their silence(acquiece) to opposing ideas and positions? I would say both happens here, but I prefer the former. If one chooses to do the later that is fine, but I ask is this the place for it and does it undermine intellectual discussions? ABM and Carey: I agree with you about gender, sex, etc..shaping one's ideas. We are in complete agreement here. When I stated,"The substance of my posts have very little to do with my character, sex, etc," I meant that the substance or evidence or proof comes from what I have read from literature, history, etc...This means that in my thought process, I negotiate over the possible tensions between my personal identities (as a man, african american, etc..)and experiences and what I have read, etc.... My initial post to this thread is an example. I believed that Linda's and ChrisHayden's post was biased by their reliance on their mid-to late 20th and 21st century experience as African Americans...not to say that there is the real possibility for one not to be subjective. | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 349 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Passion: Let me respond briefly, here. And I'll provide a longer version via email. My ideas about blackness are based on blood (whether or not a person is of African descent), sometimes color, and culture. My basic perspective is, people of african descent have a shared history and culture, though the particulars may be different.Consequently, while we should admit differences, we can create coalitions based on the shared heritage. So for me, what is fundamental really is not whether a person is black, but if we share the same political struggle. To me, you rely on an old idea about blackness, which doesn't account for the complexities of the present, for as you've said, there are many africans who cling to western ideas as you claim some african americans do. And I know personally as well as through reading, that there are people of african descent in Latin American and thoughout the diaspora whose political struggles are congruent with the interests with the African continent....so again, it is the political struggle that I'm interested...not who is or is not black, for I know I am, but as an African you also know that you enemy can be an African, so in some case, what does blackness have to do with it? | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 427 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
I find it interesting that the only people uptight about Yukio's image and persona are men. Why the heck does he have to defend who he is? Why can't he just be YUKIO??? Seems like we're having a contest here to determine whose balls produce the most testoserone! | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 428 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Oh, shit! Are we back to this "what-constitutes blackness-de ja vu" all over again??? And just as I suspected, Passion and a_womon apparently have a history! Aha! Certain people just seem to be a flashpoint for controversy, don't they? BTW, somebody needs to start a new post if they plan to continue this thread. That way, I can skip past what I know will be a lot of LONG, contentious exchanges. | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 188 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Dang! Just when I promise to try to curb the sex talk, Cynique mentions "testosterone" and "balls". | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 351 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
there is a thread that Chrishayden started...but i'll not comment on this thread about the blackness situation... | ||
| Passion Regular Poster Username: Passion Post Number: 35 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
YUKIO....my point was that YOUR "Known World" is not MY "Known World". I totally understand your belief system, but I was remarking on how it isn't really YOURS, but borrowed from your owner and how that was the point of Jones's novel....which could very definitely be set in Post-Colonial Africa...that "race/color" had little to do with the Black Man Owning other Black Slaves. He saw himself as a "human being"....and in their KNOWN WORLD....human beings owned slaves when reaching a certain status. I'm not downing your "system" Yukio, and in fact as A_FUTON pointed out....I use your system in my novel "Flesh" to tie all the different colors of black women together through way of the body of a rejected lightskinned girl who feels that she is UNWORTHY because she's so light. I show that ALL black women reside "within her". I am not against your system. I am simply rejecting the idea that it comes from black people and is a good system. I think your system is "make-shift"...and with the advent of growing "mixtures", will be destroyed as dark blacks find out that there is no place of honor for them within such a system. It's happened before. Just ask my late heroin addicted Arab father who married a blue black Oromo and wanted so desperately to be accepted as "Black"--and never was. NOTHING is going on in your diaspora...that hasn't already happened over and over again in MINES. I'm just telling you the outcomes. And whether it's Haiti or South Africa or Brazil. That outcome...when using the White Invader's system...has always equaled total bastardization and devastation and ERASURE. Love you Yukio, (truly) | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 431 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_woman, while you were scrolling through the archives did you by any chance come across any of the heated and ongoing exchanges between me and "Passion" about this very subject? We go way back on that issue, and when it comes to it, I'm on your side, babe. (That's my "history" with Passion. And it seems to me that you and Passion have a "history" of clashing with each other previous to your joining this board.) | ||
| Passion Regular Poster Username: Passion Post Number: 36 Registered: 03-2004 Rating: N/A |
Cynique, Of course when coming down the hall you'll be careful to STEP OVER the doppelganger. I absolutely LOOOOOOOVE the "mixed breed" leading lady in my novel...she's a sista girl after my own heart. And so is the high yellow leading man. And yes...it's a BLACK love story and slave novel. As African as one can get. With two high yellow "Boule" Jack and Jill leading characters. As for any "shared history" with A_FUTON. She's merely some "inky" barking thing that read my history on some web page that FANS visit. And of course ...I wouldn't have a White man's baby!!! But at 17 laid down with one. Of course I aborted his baby and used him for his money for 5 years. I haven't any shame. Doesn't she know that? | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 432 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Well, Passion, the one thing you and I do agree on is that "a girl has to do what a girl has to do." | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 433 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
A_womon, at least you can draw comfort from the fact that you have an ally in Thumper when it comes to "Passion." | ||
| Yukio "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Yukio Post Number: 352 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: N/A |
Passion: I got your point. There are many "Known Worlds." The question is which is/are most resilient within present historical conditions? I say that we need to foster social movements that concern human rights, especially those of indigenous populations. In this country, we need to teach folk that this is not a democracy, but a representative government that requites folks to vote and participate in society for change. I wasn't raised to be a soldier in this movement, but I'm trying to equip myself now...but how is this war deployed and who are our enemies and friends, etc...I believe that your "Known World" will not work... Love ya back...remember disagreement is only disagreement.... |
