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A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 47
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 01:20 am: | 
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Hi Everyone,
I have spent a little time over the past week reading some (I am quickly realizing to read them all would take me until I'm 50!)of the previous posts about this subject and I must say I have come to a conclusion about this matter.
If those who want hip hop/street writers to change the way they write, then you must first change the way they have lived.
You expect young ghetto children to aspire to things they don't see in everyday life. You want them to reach for things they never see. How do you think a ghetto child feels reading about Buffy and Jody and their mother and father in their suburban household living a "Brady Bunch" existence with three squares to eat everyday and a big safe yard to play, when they get home they don't have any of that. It's hard to want to read a book when your stomach is growling. They are more likely being raised solely by the grandmother who can barely make ends meet and is probably at work when they get home. and as far as playing in their front yards, yeah right if they can dodge the bullets in time. When is the last time you read a story about a savior coming into the ghetto and making sure everything was safe cozy and happy?
This aint just entertainment people, this is life. Maybe its not your life and maybe you can look down from your lofty positions and say I'd rather not hear about that, or pretend otherwise but life in the ghetto aint changed! You want a kid to grow up to be a doctor, but the last time they even saw a doctor was probably if they broke thier arms or some other extreme injury that necessitated a visit. Yeah, if its tough for people with good jobs to afford insurance, what do you imagine it's like for people who are poor but have a job so they don't qualify for public health care?
What does a little ghetto kid know about a lawyer? When daddy or mommy got arrested and thrown in jail and grandma had to go see one to get them out.
When do you think a doctor, lawyer, actor, singer ,LITERARY person paid a visit to a ghetto school and spoke about life outside of the mean streets AND stayed around long enough to make sure one ghetto child attained the skills to get where they are. You can pretend that this doesn't exist and therefore shouldn't be written about. I can't. You want to change street writers, change the streets. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 76
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Hey A_womon:
While I was waiting for my email to download I decided to check the board and read a few posts. When people express these sentiments it always strikes a cord with me me, becuase however empassioned and well meaning it does not square with reality or my personal experience.
People in the ghetto have more cause to be concerned about obesity rather than a growling stomach.
Dodging bullets, come on, people are more likely to succumb to alcohol or drug abuse as opposed to the errant bullet. Sure we read about every shotting incident involving a child over the course of many weeks, so it gives one the impression that kids have to be prepared to duck for cover on the way to school everyday.
Evey school I know, in the ghetto, has a program where professionals go to the school to speak with students about professional careers. Expecting someone to ensure that one ghetto child got to where they need to be is a little unrealistic, particularly if they have there own kids to content with. However I know of people who do just that; unheralded heros who devote time and money to mentor and shape the lifes of one or more children - they are not aways successful, but they try.
"You want to change street writers, change the streets." I hear what you saying but don't agree the logic. People engage and live through a very broad spectrum of experiences. Writers can choose to write about any of these or something completely outside the realm of human experience.
One issue is: Why is there so much focus on the most sexually or crimially oriented aspects of our lives? I'll tell you; most of us don't engage in these types of activities on a day to day basis, so we read about other fictional characters that do. It allows the reader to live vacriously through the lives of the charatcers in the books. The reader does not have to worry about getting AIDS, shot, addicted to drugs, or a felony conviction.
This IS entertainment. By extention, does anyone think the Black family sitcoms on UPN reflect "real" black families. Does anyone think all black women behave and look like they do on a BET Rap video? Is every neighborhood barbershop like Ice Cube's? Of course, not it is silly to suggest otherwise. Entertainment is not reality*. Street fiction is not reality.
*Now I know someone is saying, "Hey, reality TV is entertainment". While it may be enteraining, to some, even reality TV is not reality.
Peace
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A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 48
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 01:21 pm: |
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Troy,
WOW. What ghetto did you grow up in? You have just given me a reverse stereo type of the ghetto--those on the outside looking in. I'm giving you a personal invite to come spend 1 week with me and I will take you to my old neighborhood where there was gunfire every single night--still is. And when I moved away I couldn't understand why I couldn't get to sleep until I figured out that it was too quiet and that I was listening for ghetto noises, the music of rapid fire bullets, gangs walking down the street at one am espousing make shift rap songs and fighting each other and generally cussing up a storm and looking for any excuse to start trouble. So don't try to tell me what ain't a reality. I assure you that you will change your mind. Trust and believe that drive by shootings AINT a thing of the past. And yes, a ghetto kid will become obese, as would anyone who is fed a steady stream of potato chips and candy and pop and having to call that a meal. Maybe kids don't have to dodge bullets everyday, but what does it say if people have become so callous that it's alright if one or two ghetto kids get killed in the crossfire ANYTIME?
Man, I could sit here and answer you point by point, but on the real, Im telling you half the stuff you posted is NOT ghetto reality. And how come you think its unrealistic for a professional to mentor a few ghetto children, to set them on the right path to become a professional,AND come back and check on them every now and then. Is the drug dealer a thing of the past? Where do you think they come from? Do they spring up full of life and ready to deal from mother earth? Right. Kids mimic what they see. And if they saw other things they would become other things if someone would show themit is attainable. And you can't get that from someone coming in once a month or once a year in some schools AND NOT AT ALL IN OTHERS. believe that!
And there are other writers writing about other things so what's your point. My point is people write from their own experiences most of the time, whether they embellish it into pure fantasy or not. Even literary types write from an experience that has moved them or touched them in some way or another.
And I'm not even saying that nuclear families with mom and dad and sissy in their nice quiet neighborhoods don't exist of course they do. Why can't you give my world the same validation?
Troy, do you really believe all that you wrote, or did you write it for the sake of discussion? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 387
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 02:46 pm: |
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Today's black middleclass was yesterday's black underclass, a-womon. Thousands of blacks have escaped the ghetto to go on and lead productive lives. You seem to be a shining example of that. Why did you succeed where others failed??? The majority of kids in the ghetto have sense enough to know that what's going on there ain't cool. They are not stupid enough to think that having to contend with gangs and drive-bys is preferable to living a wholesome life like the Bradys. So, there are no pat explanations for what is happening in America's "inner cities" or no typical exeriences because it apparently differs from place to place. But the one common pitfall is the dire ramifications of the proliferation of teen-aged pregnancies. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 77
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 03:01 pm: |
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Hey A_woman.
Yeah, actually on this occasion I believe everything I wrote. But my points are not founded solely on my beliefs but based in fact. If you like pick a single point and I'll show you what I mean.
I'm not sure what I said for you to come to the conclusion that I don't give your world the same validation. Indeed I recently started another website to promote the very literature we are talking about (http://hiphopbookclub.com) -- so it is not a matter of validation...
Before we get into a my ghetto is worse than your ghetto thing (shoot, we might even come from the same ghetto). Lets just say that because you are poor and live in the so called "ghetto" does not mean you are into drugs, prosititution, gang-banging, or any of the other things which are fodder for the street books -- I agrue most are not. One could live in suburbia an put someone from the ghetto to shame.
The point I'm trying to make is that we one reads a book like "The Coldest Winter Ever" (a book I enjoyed), it is a mistake to assume most people live that way. It seems though that some readers are unable to distinquish entertainment from reality or they get it muddled.
Of course many writers write from experience, thats easiest. I'm not disputing or taking issue with that. What I'm talking about is the reader who assimilates this work as fact.
You basically made my point with the statement "Kids mimic what they see" I'm conerned some readers read this stuff and may mimic it. If there was nothing else but ghetto fiction I would have a serious problem with it. We are so much more than what we see on BET or UPN or what we might read in a Triple Crown Book. That does not mean I don't think any of it should exist. I want to make sure readers know that there are choices and that they do not believe all of the stero-types they may read about the ghetto.
I grew up in Spanish Harlem (last time I noticed it still had one of the lowest per capital incomes in New York City). I live in Harlem "proper" now. Sure many nights I can;t walk down my block cause "Brothers" are rolling c-low on the stoop. Look all this gun play we read about in these books is exaggerated. Drug dealers try to minimize that stuff, as it is bad for business. Does it happen from time to time, sure. The reality we read in these books belongs to a small minority.
As a frame of reference, which ghetto do(did) you live in A-womon?
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 270
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 03:02 pm: |
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A_womon: We once spoke of hip hop fiction, and now it seems that the discussion has transfered to lived experience in the socalled "ghetto."
Of course these are related, but most things are related.
Many of us grew up in the "ghetto." Part of the dilemma is, We assume that our experience is the quintissential experience when it is just ours. Another quagmire is that we often collaspe our present, often adult and removed experience, with that of our past, which was often difficult, dangerous, etc..., but normal since everyone else we knew experienced the same so it didn't seem to extreme. In other words, clearly one can speak of the "ghetto" but there are different experiences, which really questions an authentic singular experience.
We all know that role models are useful, but a role model really has to work overtime, as you suggests. Yet, I'm a bit suspicious of the role model analysis, because it avoids the fact that the "ghetto" is the result of racism, within the economic and political terrain. In other words, this is a both structural and behavioral problem, and the role model can only address the latter, often the easier.
Finally, what does this all have to do with hip hop fiction? A_womon, I'm gonna to ask more from you because you've started this thread.
The "more" is, What is the relationship between these hip hop writers' "lived experience" and the quality of their fiction?
One of my difficulties with your post, is that you have not identified exactly what YOU mean when you state, "If those who want hip hop/street writers to change the way they write, then you must first change the way they have lived."
You have addressed the "live" part, but neither the "way they write" part, nor the relationship between the two.
There seems to be alot of assumptions going on in this statement. One is that these writers are of the ghetto; Another is the content people do like the content...
Now, I purposely searched for different threads for you, so that you could engage these folk since, as you've seen, many discussions have gone on. In addition, many of us sort of know where the other is coming from through past exchanges, so we don't explain as much. consequently, response are understood by some but often not recent posters. I believe that these threads suggest a more diverse characterizations among those unenthusiastic about the state of hip hop fiction than your post suggests...
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 271
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 03:09 pm: |
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Ok...cynique and troy have beat me to the punch...i really think this discussion has led to many responses...And while I THINK the post and thread is really about the hip hop writers' quality of writing and their relationship to their lived experience, I not sure and don't feel like A_Womon's question is focused...
Cuz this thread is too quickly going elsewhere...the pattern is we address the question five to ten times, and then we drift...lmao! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 272
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 03:12 pm: |
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troy....you are amazing...such a mind! |
A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 49
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 06:06 pm: |
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Hey Cynique, Troy, Yukio,
Man, I appreciate the insights into my thoughts on street writing. I am new to this board, relatively speaking and I know that you guys have hashed, rehashed, and re-re-rehashed all of this before, so let me tell you I appreciate your time.
Cynique, thank you for your kind words and as usual you make some interesting points.
Troy,
When I tell you that I grew up in Columbus, Ohio in the Cleveland Avenue/Northside of town, you probably will think it couldn't have been that bad, but brotha it's all relative, right? But you make some good points. I'm not unmindful that some young kid somewhere may read one of the poorly written street books and think that its okay to write that way--period. Or live that way. But what are we to do? I want these kids to see their streets and their life reflected in what I write, but I don't want to leave them there. I'd like to show them a better way. What would you all suggest as far as that goes?
Yukio,
This is a subject that is near and dear to my heart, I haven't made that a secret here. It's pretty obvious that it's one I'm really passionate about as well. So sometimes I admit I don't stay on point as I should. The point I was trying to make is street/hip hop writers write from where they are and where they have been, and yes for some it has become all about the money. But for others, it is writing because you have to. Or because you are doing what you were born to do. As for writing poorly as stories are told, I don't agree with that part. I've said it before and I'll say it again, there is a difference in writing using the language of the streets and writing poorly and yes some of these writers would do well to take a few classes and learn the difference. |
A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 50
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 06:16 pm: |
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ps at the risk of sounding stoopid,(anybody remember when it was hip to say something was stoopid? LOL) what does Imao mean? |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 51
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 06:27 pm: |
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Hey Troy,
I just clicked on the link you provided in your last post to the hiphop bookclub site.And all I got to say is BRAVO! Now you can have some real input on this subject. Not that you didn't have before. Will you also provide a link to buy a particular book? |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 38
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 07:45 pm: |
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Yukio wrote:
The "more" is, What is the relationship between these hip hop writers' "lived experience" and the quality of their fiction?
One of my difficulties with your post, is that you have not identified exactly what YOU mean when you state, "If those who want hip hop/street writers to change the way they write, then you must first change the way they have lived."
You have addressed the "live" part, but neither the "way they write" part, nor the relationship between the two.
Thank you Yukio. If one reads completely the threads then one would find that many found the following to be problematic within "hip hop/street" fiction genre: ill constructed or undeveloped plots, flat prose, one dimensional characters, predictable endings, poor editing, etc.
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Nancy
First Time Poster
Username: Nancy
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 08:20 pm: |
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A woman, No matter how hard you try to validate hip hop fiction, street novels or whatever you want to call them. They are nothing but autobiography's of thugs in a past life.
Really, if I wanted to find out how an ex-con got caught doing dirt and the prison time he or she spent for doing it. I would go down to a prison and pull a thug out of his cell--who is dying to get a visit and tell their story to anyone who will listen.
Is this work really creative? I don't think so. Writing is supposed to be creative, with imagination if it is fiction. This work all has happened in true life and most of it....is part of the reason the streets you claim to have grown up on in Columbus are now torn apart and up. I know the area of cleveland ave well. Maybe too well, and the drugs that flow in that part of town or any other place in urban america I cannot help but say ---is the result of our hip hop- thug, drug pushers now turned authors--who now have a new drug they are giving the kids---IGNORANCE.
Please, it's all a game. They are pushing these hip hop books like crack. They don't care about the books. (Look at the covers, look at the editing, look at the lack of depth in the storylines.) In my estimation if the hip hop books are not written by legitment authors who have a track record of sales then these books should be burned because they are nothing but a recount of the dirt that has been done to our community that I would rather not read about. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 125
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 08:28 pm: |
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Hello All,
A_womon: I understand that you're passionate about this subject. Maybe the way to convince us is by telling us which hip hop books that you feel is off the hook so that we can see the best that this genre has to offer. Don't tell us, show us that there are more to these books than a simple, poorly written, rehashing of an old Pam Grier movie.
I'm not going to address your "I was brought up in the ghetto" thang. We all got our own sob stories. You either want to get out or you don't. But you know what I found out, or discovered, it all follows you anyway. Because people are people, despite their environment. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 52
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 09:22 pm: |
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Burn books?Shades of George Orwell! Why not just choose not to read them? And Thumper, what do you mean it follows you anyway?
Some of you as usual only see what you want to see, I think that you are jealous that these writers are making money and you're not. Because if you were truly that concerned about these "poor illiterate children" being not being well read, you would be doing something about it besides suggesting burning books!
I had read a few posts where it was mentioned that ghetto children ought become doctors, lawyers, etc, and my point was how do you expect them to do this when that is not the life they see everyday!! But of course, you just play by that.
And Nancy I have already conceded that SOME of these writers are only in it for the money and don't care how poorly a book is written. And if you are familiar with the area then you know AINT NOTHIN CHANGED! Just in case you missed it I'll say it again. These writers are writing from their perspective of the street life and if you don't like it DONT READ IT. But don't knock those who do!
I also stated that Some of these writers could use some courses on writing. As far as defending the genre. I have a right to keep doing so, just as you have a right to keep trying to stop the flow--which you're not going to do!
And why does my story have to be a "sob story"? And unlike some of you I don't want to forget where I come from no matter what I may aspire to. I hope I do keep my ghetto experiences with me because I understand that we are ALL the sum total of ALL of our experiences and I also know that chosing not to forget will help me help others unlike some of you.
Whatever Thumper!
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 53
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 09:33 pm: |
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PS Thumper I accept your challenge and I will compile a list and get back with you. Just don't give me a time limit, cause I have to read or re-read before I submit. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 273
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 09:34 pm: |
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Jmho: Right. I do think one's lived experience does have something to do with their writing, but the particulars of hip hop fiction seems to involve both craft as well as content.
A_womon: I agree with your point about the difference between poor writing and street jargon. Yet, what I'm asking is, What does where you come from have to do with being a hip hop fiction? ...much of our oral literary tradition come from socalled "uneducated" people whose writing is "poor," but are abundant with literary qualities and their writing has depth, characters are three dimensional, etc...Indeed, these socalled uneducated folk are the backbone of our literary tradition, so it seems that is more for you to discuss than we folk come from.
What I'm asking you to do is, Identify the connection between writing "from where they are" and the critiques against and/or for hip hop fiction.
The passion you have is clear, but I'm asking you to precisely articulate what your own thread seeks to engage. Here, it is not enough to talk about poor writing. The others threads do more than this...Of course, it is your choice.
You can even consider it a challenge. Of course, not a personal one! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 274
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 09:44 pm: |
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Jmho: Right. I do think one's lived experience does have something to do with their writing, but the particulars of hip hop fiction seems to involve both craft as well as content.
A_womon: I agree with your point about the difference between poor writing and street jargon. Yet, what I'm asking is, What does where you come from have to do with these hip hop writers? ...Much of our oral literary tradition come from socalled "uneducated" people whose writing is "poor," but are abundant with literary qualities and their writing has depth, characters are three dimensional, etc...Indeed, these socalled uneducated folk are the backbone of our literary tradition, so it seems that there is more for you to discuss than where folk come from.
What I'm asking you to do is, Identify the connection between writing "from where they are" and the critiques against and/or for hip hop fiction.
The passion you have is clear, but I'm asking you to precisely articulate what your own thread seeks to engage. Here, it is not enough to talk about poor writing. The others threads do more than this...Of course, it is your choice.
You can even consider it a challenge. Of course, not a personal one! |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 54
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 10:29 pm: |
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Thumper
Here's a question for you. Are you always this biased when reviewing books? Are your reviews based on personal tastes alone or are there other criteria. If so what are they?
Also as board moderator, how can you choose sides? I thought a moderator was sort of a mediator. You never seem to remain nuetral. And when you do pick sides, you aren't even nice about it. You have to throw in a personal dig. Why is this? Just curious. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 55
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 10:48 pm: |
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Yukio, I like the points you make, I've read a lot of the posts you have made and you're pretty consistent most of the time, although you have waffled a bit on this hip hop street thang. You are a little deep and I don't even know that I am able to articulate my thoughts in a way that you would like, however, I will give it a try again tomorrow, maybe. I am a little weary tonight so if you please, I will get back to you on that one. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 39
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 10:52 pm: |
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A_womon wrote:
PS Thumper I accept your challenge and I will compile a list and get back with you. Just don't give me a time limit, cause I have to read or re-read before I submit.
A_womon, does this mean it might be YEAR(S) -- you did mention re-reading books -- before you can give a listing? With all this talk of these books and the fact that you've read a few, just listing a couple would be a great start. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 56
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:03 pm: |
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Come on JMHO, was that comment necessary? You seem to imply that I am a slow reader. I am not going to name any books right now as the ones I have read with the exception of "coldest winter ever" were poorly written, but they had a GOOD STORY which has been my point. I want to find some that are both well written (grammatically, sentence structure) and are a good read. although Im sure you cant wait to find fault with whatever list I may provide.
Just fyi: i can usually read a good book in a day or two. sheesh! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 275
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:42 pm: |
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A_Womon:
I have yet to share my point of view on this thread, so I'm not sure where u say I've "waffled."
Let me make some points to get you started. As I stated, I believe there is a relationship between fiction and the writer's life. Still, if the writer has grown up in the socalled "ghetto," this information only provides us with a very general context..the socio-economic condition...not necessarily their education, their values, religion, etc...in addition, this doesn't tell us if they have or don't have socalled good writing skills, and by writing skills I'm talking about literary skills, such plot construction, voice, tone, narration, character development...none of this has anything to do with grammar and punctuation.
This was my point about the oral tradition....is often has all of these qualities...african and native american oral tradition even the european, which James Joyce breathed life into, does this...
It seems like you're suggesting that since these folk are from the socalled "ghetto" that they can not practice good craft...the fact is many stories i've heard from friends, families, etc... in the socalled "ghetto" has "craft" also they didn't call it that...they jus told sum good ass stories!
The poverty that you're talkin about pertains to socio-economic issues that has to do with quality of life, which when related to this thread means quality of education. Yet, an institutionalized education is often not enough to make u a good writer...jus like being a thug doesn't make u a good rapper...I have not read any hip hop fiction, but I promote the genre...but not writers who can not write...violence, etc...doesn't bother me...I believe, as my posts have addressed, that there will be literary hip hop fiction and commercial hip hop fiction...this is where the discussion make really lie(sp).
By the way, and I know ChrisHayden disagree, but I still think the rhythm of john edgar wideman's fiction is black music, including jazz, blues, the spirituals, r &b, and hip hop... i really think so...and here, I'm not talkin about content, but the language and form, rhythm...A_womon...this stuff is important! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 388
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:26 am: |
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A-womon, are you aware of how biased you, yourself, come across when it comes to hip-hop lit? And I am beginning to think that the reason you have become so entrenched in your view is not so much that you hold hip-hop in high regard but because you want to prove that you are not somebody who backs down. And I disagree with how you dramatize the aberrations of this genre by rationalizing that those who read and write it are so insulated that they can't relate to any other lifestyle. Like these people have never watched TV or seen a movie or attended school, or that they are so dense that they can't conceive of a different set of survival skills. If a person who didn't grow up in the ghetto knows about its depravity, then why wouldn't the opposite be true? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 276
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:50 am: |
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cynique:
Let me start with, I'm not defending A_Womon. Let me say something slightly different from what A_Womon seems to suggest. There is some, and let me stress some, truth, to opinion that people mostly know their local experience and even carry that local experience everywhere they go(this seems to be what Thumper suggested, but I don't know for sure). Consequently, many don't know of these different skills...but many do have parent that teach them these skills...and of course, many don't listen to their parents....there are a variety of reasons. In other words, you can know the opposite from depravity, but you may not know how to change your condition...and sometimes when u find out, going to skill aint gonna do it...if u have children, etc...others only know the opposite through purchasing material things...which, we know, still not wealth. |
Kathleen_cross
Newbie Poster
Username: Kathleen_cross
Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 04:45 am: |
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Did anyone read Frank McCourt's memoir, "Angela's Ashes", a book about an impoverished Irish family? (It won the 1996 National Book Critics Circle Award and the Pulitzer Prize)
(To me) the book was about poverty and what being materially destitute can lead (some) human beings to become. Frank's father was a trifling alcoholic who abandoned his wife and children to pursue his love of liquor. His family was left to suffer hunger and a life of homelessness and squalor. Frank's mother ultimately chooses to bed down with a nasty man who mistreats her and her children (to give her children a roof over their heads.)
Though the guns and crack one might find in so-called "hip hop" lit may have been absent from McCourt's story, there was plenty of alcoholism and moral depravity to go around.
He won a Pulitzer for it.
Irish people didn't protest. They didn't assume McCourt's tale was a depiction of all Irish people, or even all poor Irish people. It was one Irishman's story of survival -- Frank McCourt's story of how he crawled out of a feces-filled gutter to become a writer.
White folks can tell a gritty story and make a million damned dollars for it -- why shouldn't there be gritty, painful-to-read stories coming out of the "hood"? Why isn't everyone's tale of survival as worthy as the next man or woman's?
OF course, the rub is going to be whether or not the work is well-written -- I personally think that should be the only rub.
Nathan McCall's "Makes Me Wanna Holler," Patrice Gaines' "Laughing in the Dark" and Michael Datcher's "Raising Fences" (memoirs) entranced me from start to finish as did Sister Souljah's "The Coldest Winter Ever" (fiction) I thought these authors exercised great craft in the writing of stories about subjects that are not emotionally easy to take in (fatherlessness, drug dealing, drug addiction, gang rape, armed robbery, prison life, etc.) I don't feel I am demeaned or belittled by any of the above mentioned books, but I do think I am just a tiny bit more connected to the human family for having read them.
There are lazy writers of every genre and ethnicity who rely on sensationalism and sex to sell their books. And there are writers of every genre and ethnicity who are struggling to tell a story the best way they can (given their level of craft).
Instead of lumping all contemporary urban stories into the "useless depravity" category, why can't we just let so-called "hip hop lit" stand on the merit of individual stories told by individual writers and call it a day?
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 57
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 05:48 am: |
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Kathleen,
Finally some one who actually gets it!!! Thank you for taking the time to articulate all the things I have been trying to convey.
Hopefully more people will respect your opinion on this since you are an established writer.
Yukio, I was not necessarily writing about this thread when I say you have waffled. I am speaking about your opinion on hip hop street writing and its place in the literary world period. Take a look at what you have written on other threads about this subject.
Cynique, is that what this board is about: all of you regular long time posters trying to get me to see the error of my views and make me back down from them? Sorry, but that aint goin to happen, no matter how many of you disagree with them they will remain my views until the time when I decide for my own reasons that my viewpoint should change. And as far a being biased, I have said from the beginning that I love to read, period. If a book is a good read, I don't care who has written it, I will crack it open. Some of you seem to have formed the opinion that hip hop is all that I read or have read, or in JHMO's case, all I am capable of reading as she looks down her nose as usual. gimme a break. I have read nathan mcall's book, richard wright, james patterson, anne rice, james baldwin, dean koontz, claude brown, danielle steel,EJD,stephen king;aka richard bachman, greek mythology etc, etc,etc. And when did I state that the hip hip street writers were insulated? Is saying that someone writes from their own experiences the same as saying that is all that they ever experience? Tell me cynique how did you make that leap?
One thing I am beginning to dislike here is how if one of you has an opinion, you all jump aboard like players on a football team when a member of the opposite team has been tackled with the ball, they pile on top until that person no longer can budge. Why are you all so afraid to take a different view? My view has been from the beginning --we are more than one community and there is room for this type writing--all types of writing--in the literary world. |
Kathleen_cross
Newbie Poster
Username: Kathleen_cross
Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 07:15 am: |
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A_WOman,
You can see from my meager post count that I don't jump in the fray too often. Respectfully exchanging opinions is cool, but I'm not really not down for the bickering and personal jabs...
I appreciate your appreciation (wacky sentence, I know) but honestly, I think Thumper and Yukio said it long before I did.
Yukio said: "Now, it seems that we can all agree that black wrtiers, like all writers, should have the right, as artists and humans generally, to write about the human conditions..."
Thumper said: "We do categorize our fiction. I have always been opposed to that. Overall, I think we are hurting ourselves by that...I believe that once we, as a people, can learn to embrace all of the genres of our literature, we will be on the road to embracing our whole selves. But until that time we are imprisoning ourselves."
That pretty much states what I was trying to say.
Of course, I realize that in my above post I left out the whole subject of white folks owning the publishing process... that means they ultimately get to decide which stories get delivered to the masses and in what (editorial) condition. (Except, of course, for self-published books, which is a whole 'nother can of worms)
One could argue that if a gozillion books about poor Irishman came out next month with so-so writing and shoddy editing, Irish folks might have to create a IALBC discussion board and go at it. ;)
I can see both sides of this argument and support some of both -- The truth is, alot of (but certainly not all) new writers of urban contemporary fiction don't seem to get the point that writing is not just storytelling -- it is CRAFT. A damn difficult craft.
But, in fairness to them, they aren't the only ones putting out substandard work -- a trip to Barnes and Noble will confirm that fact.
The truth is graduating from high school or college does not necessarily equip one for the craft of writing. (Hell, years of study of the craft does not necessarily equip one, for that matter.) As a matter of fact There are countless highly-educated EDITORS at major publishing houses who are paid to recognize good writing, yet they themselves couldn't write a bestseller if their lives depended on it. (Many of them have tried)
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Kathleen_cross
Newbie Poster
Username: Kathleen_cross
Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 07:29 am: |
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I forgot one thing...
"Established" writers don't get no mercy up in here -- trust me. 
Besides, I definitely don't claim to be an expert on the craft of writing. I can be called a "professional writer" because a publisher paid me for my books -- but we all know the road to reading hell is paved with books publishers paid for. ;)
Ultimately, craft is in the eye of the beholder. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 59
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 07:50 am: |
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Kathleen,
I saw Thumper's post on the other thread and I gave him his props for the exact same phrase that you quoted. I have given Yukio props as well for his viewpoint, sometimes he and I have even come close to agreeing on some points.
I don't like the bickering either, however sometimes when people on both sides are really passionate about certain points of view, bickering is sometimes the unfortunate residue.
But I aint mad at anyone here and hopefully they aint mad at me. I like hearing others views, and hopefully, all bickering aside, they will appreciate mine as well.
I just don't get why some have to lower themselves to personal attacks just because someone won't crossover to their viewpoint. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 126
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 08:22 am: |
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Hello All,
A_womon: Let me address, and in some cases re-address a couple of your points and then I'm done. First of all, when I stated that "it follows you", it does. Some folks will do everything they can to forget that they came from the ghetto or the hood. Others will embrace it wholeheartedly. But no one ever truly forgets where they come from. People will mold and alter their behavior accordingly. The ghetto is not a location, its a state of mind. Second, of course the merits and criteria that I use to review a book is my own. DUH! Who else's critieria would I use? *eyebrow raised* A review is just an opinion. That's ALL! No more, no less. I, like other people, like to hear another person's opinion of a book, either before or after they read it.
I am far from being jealous of any published writer. I have turned down offers to write my own books. I have found my niche, and it fits just fine. *wink*
You wrote: "Also as board moderator, how can you choose sides?"
Easy, I just do. I'm a moderator, not a babysitter. I have my own views and opinions and I express them.
You wrote: "You have to throw in a personal dig. Why is this?"
I don't know you personally, intimately, or even on an acquaintence level. So how can I throw a personal dig at anyone that I don't know? *eyebrow raised*
Furthermore, as JMHO pointed out, how can you be an advocate for hip hop fiction if you can't name a single title that you think is the best, or one of the best out there? *eyebrow still raised and it aint coming down* Darlin, your slip is showin, your game is loose. Don't get mad, just tighten it up. Now we all have been pretty easy on you. If you go back into our archives, you will see that the regular posters have been known to get low down nasty with each other. We can and will argue things to a fine point. It's not personal. With all of the threads and posts you have written concerning hip hop fiction, I thought you had brought your A game. Because, shoot, I ain't took my coat off yet when it comes to hip hop fiction.
Kathleen (hey, there, how are you doing? *smile*) told you true, "Established" writers don't get any mercy up in here. We are here to discuss books, not hold up authors egos. It's about you showing us. As others have told you A_womon, writing is a craft. Study it. It's hard work. I have to study it to keep my own game tight.
Let me point you in the right direction. Pick up these two books, The Elements of Style by Strunk and The Rhetoric of Fiction by Wayne C. Booth. If you don't get no other book on writing, get these. Read, memorize and apply. Solomon gave you an excellent suggestion, join a writers workshop. Before I leave you, I'm going to leave you with the best advice I have ever gotten concerning writing from my uncle, In order to be a good WRITER, you have to be a good READER. I'll let you find out what he meant by that, but I'm going to tell you know, it's a lot deeper than you might think.
I'm bouncing.... |
Nancy
Newbie Poster
Username: Nancy
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 08:58 am: |
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I think some of these books would do better in the autobiography section. Reason being most are written by ex-drug dealers who are doing nothing but telling what has happened to themselves or what they have witnessed --while they were busy tearing up our communities.
They might even become bigger hits on the sales list because now as they say..."The author will have street cred" Instead of making up a fictisious name, plot and storyline-the authors should use their own name and give us the truth about what has transpired. How's this for starters.
"I pumped over two million dollars a week of crack into your neighborhoods. I am partly responsible for your brother and sister getting strung out and part of the reason why your mother has never gotten over it. Yes, I supplied the crack that made your uncle rape your little sister- repeatedly."
But then again, maybe they are to ashamed of what they have done to our communities to admit of their wrong doing. You tell me-and I don't want to hear everyone makes mistakes. Tell that to the single mother who tried to keep her son on the straight and narrow--but your persistance was just much too strong on the block --and now you want to write books about it?
Though I do think the books are sparking a great debate, but when you actually look at it--do we really want hip-hop, street books to be the books of choice for our children especailly if they are not making a profound statement about how truly hard the streets are. In many of the books-the drug dealer does dirt and somehow gets back on the street. Is this reality? And do they get back on the street and jump right back into the glamourous life? All I ask is that these authors be true to the readers because if they are not--the same slighted images we see on BET and MTV will be perpetrated in print-and I am sorry to say I think it has already happened.
Here is a question for hip hop writers. Do you actually think your work is making a difference in the community and how? Examples please. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 40
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 09:33 am: |
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A_womon wrote:
Come on JMHO, was that comment necessary?
Actually, it was a question.
A_womon wrote:
You seem to imply that I am a slow reader.
Not at all. You mentioned reading and re-reading books, but that's going to take some time, right? I would think if these books were so great in style and content, then you could at least come up with a couple of titles. Are the books that forgettable?
A_womon wrote:
I am not going to name any books right now as the ones I have read with the exception of "coldest winter ever" were poorly written,
Well, this is what some have been saying for a while now. What you think is the best of the bunch was written what, 4 or 5 years ago? And, all those published since that one that you've read, don't compare. That's very telling.
A_womon wrote:
but they had a GOOD STORY which has been my point.
So a story that was poorly written however it was good story none the less, is that what you're saying? You may have the best idea yet but if you can't implement it then really how good is that idea. The premise may be wonderful but if the execution and delievery isn't then again really how wonderful is it?
A_womon wrote:
I want to find some that are both well written (grammatically, sentence structure) and are a good read. although I'm sure you cant wait to find fault with whatever list I may provide.
Not hardly, but you have been beating the drum, very loudly I might add, for these books for days now but you feel the best of the best was written is about 5 years old and many more have hit the book stores since yet when asked for a list of titles of some good books in this genre and your response was, I need to read or re-read some books.
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Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 41
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 09:39 am: |
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Kathleen_cross wrote:
Did anyone read Frank McCourt's memoir, "Angela's Ashes", a book about an impoverished Irish family? (It won the 1996 National Book Critics Circle Award and the Pulitzer Prize)
Kathleen, I read the book but it's ironic you mention the awards this book received. A while back, some posters felt that the fact a book won an award, especially those given by white people, didn't carry much weight. Either the awards mean something or they don't. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 42
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 09:45 am: |
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Nancy wrote:
All I ask is that these authors be true to the readers because if they are not--the same slighted images we see on BET and MTV will be perpetrated in print-and I am sorry to say I think it has already happened.
Nancy, I raised this issue some time ago. Hearing and viewing about this lifestyles on CDs and in videos and movies is deemed to be harmful yet reading about these same images and events in books is acceptable. Isn't that sending a mixed message? Isn't that being hypocritical? And, if it's all entertainment, why does medium get a bye yet the others are held to standards? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 389
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:21 pm: |
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A-womon, what you don't seem to get is that when you bust onto this board, firing on all cylinders, dishing it out but apparently not being able to take it, then you ignite reaction. And how many times does the point have to be conceded that hip-hop lit has a place in the black reading spectrum and that it has earned an audience?! Nobody is denying that. What people are complaining about is the way the white publishing world has exploited the situation for profit, insidioulsy turning hip-hop lit into the standard for success. Sometimes it helps to look at the big picture! |
Kathleen_cross
Newbie Poster
Username: Kathleen_cross
Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 01:03 pm: |
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Jmho,
The year Eastwood's "Unforgiven" won an Oscar for best director and Spike Lee didn't even get nominated (for Malcolm X) I gave up all hope of the Academy Awards ever meaning a damn thing to me.
Of course, the dust of my opinion isn't being polished off Halle Berry's little gold statue, nor Denzel's
Awards have meaning in any business motivated by MONEY. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 277
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 01:23 pm: |
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Jmho: I think once hip hop fiction becomes more commercialized, ie politicians and older civil rights organizations become aware of them, then there will be an outcry.
Smut is part of this world; it always has been! More importantly, if there is a market it will this socalled smut will always sell...whats new? Yet, it really has alot to do with the commodification of culture, which is not about black folk but general world capitalism, consumption and production! We can only really affect the consumption side, which has to do with tastes. If this and especially A_womon's thread is about anything, It is about people producing what they want. Not being held to some black authenticity meter, which can be useful as well as detrimental.
Finally, I'm sure this is, or will be, socalled hip hop with some integrity.
A_womon: My comment about the my socalled waffling was not an attack; Your tone(part of the writer's weaponry) is a bit caustic. At any rate, if you will, please tell me where I waffled, for in my mind I have not. I'm interested, however, to learn of what YOU think.
Again: Well written does not mean good grammar and punctuation. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 60
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 02:17 pm: |
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What, I can't take it? What have i been doing except take everything thrown at me? Whatevverrrrrrr! okay I'm done, maybe me and my views will be more welcome on the hip hop site that Troy started! I don't know maybe its just a generation type gap here.
and cynique, and the rest of yall have been known to get defensive too on occasion so don't pretend it's just me. It has been me against the board since I came here for some honest exchange of views. You would get defensive too if you found yourself(ves) in my shoes.
Peace. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 278
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:14 pm: |
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A_womon: I've only asked you questions for clarification. While folk do instigate conflict, I have not.
Also, I doubt if i'm that much older than you. The question is, Can you take disagreement? Can you take other points of view? Can you clearly articulate your perspective? Can you circumvent posters' BS and rhetoric from substantive perspectives?
In fact, many posters have even agreed with you, as you have noticed. If someone attacks you, call them on it and demonstrate, if you want, their inaccuracy or misinterpretation. I'm the first person to say, "perhaps, I didn't write clearly and/or you misinterpreted my arguments, etc..."
This is an exchange,and obviously, while we all speak english...words are often loaded and our culture, age, religion, gender, politics, etc...add to our particular interpretation(or reading) of words. Consequently, misunderstanding is really normal, even in face to face exchanges.
Finally, some people you can not talk to some you can...if you reconsider others threads and that the same people agree and disagree with you on other threads, perhaps you can see that this is not personal! |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 61
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:23 pm: |
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Ok Ok Please don't beat me no mo' massahs and missys, ah promises AH'ma be real good frum nah own!
JUST JOKING ALL! I don't want to go, seriously. strangely enough I have become attached to you guys already.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 147
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:28 pm: |
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Is the issue being argued here really one of quality of writing or redundancy of subject matter? Some of you appear to asserting the former and others the later. Oh well, I don't know if I can add much there only to say that hip-hop literature is HARDLY the sole literary subgenre that lacks quality/uniqueness.
But, never the less, I will try to help to advance this discussion a bit.
You all make some very worthy points. But it is becoming increasingly difficult for me to get to worked up about the dearth of quality writing (no matter the subgenre) when it is clear that the author and/or the style/quality of her or his is writing is dwindling in importance. In the grander scheme of today's media, most writers, with a few rare exceptions, are trivial pawns to be wielded (then discarded) solely for profit by publishing companies, who are themselves being manipulated by their venal $billion multinational parent companies.
I tend to give writers a break, because I believe most writers, even those who write hip-hop lit are sincere about what they have to say (whether the writers are talented/skilled is of course another matter entirely.). Why do I believe that? Because it is too dang hard, time-consuming to crank out a +300 page book.
Isn’t what you all are discussing really less about the author and more about editorial, marketing and publishing decisions? For example, I think if many H/H books contain glaring errors is because the editors/publishers think that is what certain readers prefer. Moreover, I can see a scenario where an author wrote something that was worthy of Baldwin only to have their writing contorted to something written by 'Bee Bee'.
Just because some smoe wrote a book, doesn't mean Simon & Schuster and Bantam has to publish and promote it or that Amazon and Borders has to distribute and sell it. Frankly, I'd wager what most of you decry is really the product of people who have rarely, if ever, READ a hip-hop lit book, much less actually WRITTEN one.
All of the books are the same for the same reasons why all the music is the same, or why the styles/fashion are all the same, why Beyonce Knowles is really only Britney Spears with a permanent tan, etc. As media, A&E consolidates into fewer hands; desired artistic traits such as uniqueness, quality, etc., no matter the efforts of artists/writers, will continue to suffer.
Thumper/Eviana and Lambd/Jmho,
You sure can tell when Spring is here...cause even the cyber 'air' is filled with love.
Cynique,
You need to lemme camp out at your studio too when I roll thru Chi-town. I promise we'll have a blast. One thing though: I sleep in the raw. So don't worry if you think you're noticing a Black King Cobra hissing at you...it's only 'me'.<<wink!>> |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 279
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:29 pm: |
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A_Womon: OK...since we're one dysfunctional though happy, at time irritable family ...Why don't you answer some of these questions and let the dialogue proceed. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 280
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:41 pm: |
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ABM: Much of your comments are in A_womon's other thread. But as usual, your comments are always substantive, even though I've stated much of what you stated at 1:23pm...lmao. There goes advancing the discussion bit... Part of the problem is, It is not clear what A_womon is asking us to discuss. That has been one of my questions for her...something she should be able to articulate, for she constructed the thread. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 149
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:53 pm: |
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Thanks, Yukio.
Sadly, I noticed the erroneous placement of the post only AFTER I had posted it. And I agree that your post touched on the commercial influences on literature prior to mind, though your comments lack the style and flare of Yours Truly (HAHA!) Seriously, though, well said, Yukio. |
Kathleen_cross
Newbie Poster
Username: Kathleen_cross
Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 04:34 pm: |
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Hey all,
I was searching Google for something and came across this article on "chick lit" which is interestingly similar to the dialogue here.
http://bookbitch.blogspot.com/2003_10_26_bookbitch_archive.html
One thing I found particularly similar is this point about the overabundance of not-so-well-written "chick lit" flooding the market these days:
"The trend has grown to such a crescendo that two publishers set up separate chick lit imprints this year and are rushing out these books at a rate of two to three a month. Simon & Schuster launched Downtown Press, featuring a shopping bag logo, and Kensington Publishing introduced Strapless...
...The books have found a niche among young urban women looking for a sassy voice that defines their generation. Their popularity is breathing new life into a sagging book industry dominated by older readers...
...Still, some publishers believe that the phenomenon is losing steam. Chick lit has been declared passe in Britain, where the trend originated. The plots are formulaic and the themes identical, critics say...
"The field will start to blur, and you won't be able to distinguish the good from the bad," says (literary agent) Deborah Schneider. "Publishers shouldn't do so much of it."
"If you have an imprint, you have to have something to fill it, and you become less choosy," says Elizabeth Beier, who edited another chick lit hit, The Dirty Girls Social Club...
Industry experts say publishers can make more money from chick lit than from traditional fiction. Most chick lit authors are first-time writers who receive small advances ranging from $5,000 to $50,000. But their books sell far better than those by peers in other categories.
Chick lit novelists commonly rack up sales of 50,000 books, while many unknown writers in other genres could expect to sell only 5,000 to 10,000, Mr. Scognamiglio says. He adds that "Strapless" in a matter of months has become Kensington's third-best-selling imprint among five."
SOUNDS FAMILIAR
Hmm... Their popularity is breathing new life into a sagging book industry dominated by older readers... So, it seems that when it comes to being "choosy" about publishing quality "black lit" or "white lit" it all comes down to GREEN.
Money money money money...MONEY. (singing that old O'Jay's tune)
PS -- I know I ain't said nothin' new...I am often on the late freight up in here.
;)
Hey, Thumper -- I'm hanging in there. Thanks for asking. *smile*
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 281
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 04:44 pm: |
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Kathleen Cross: ....oh no! We've discussed this before, as well.
ABM: I agree; I don't have the "style and flare" that u have... Stylisitcally, for non-fiction, I prefer taut, precise prose...this is my goal. Now, fiction on the other hand, I like lyrical prose and language in general; I pay attention to tone and especially mood...this is what i work on in my fiction. |
Kathleen_cross
Newbie Poster
Username: Kathleen_cross
Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 05:47 pm: |
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Yukio:
Behind the times again, daggone it.
Returning to my cave now.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 391
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 05:54 pm: |
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A womon, don't throw in the towel just because you catch some flak, girlfriend. That's par for the course around here. And it's not as if there weren't people who agreed with you. Other subjects will up where your former adversaries will be your allies. That's what this forum is all about! |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 62
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 06:03 pm: |
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CYNIQUE,
i aint going nowhere, wow 50 posts on this subject in one day--- did you get my email? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 392
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 06:09 pm: |
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All y'all lookin to camp out in my studio pad have to remember that it exists only in my fantasy. But who knows, one day maybe I'll abandon my 20-room mansion, fire all of my servants, divorce my millionaire husband and embrace the bohemian lifestyle. Decisions, decisions, - always decisions..... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 393
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 06:13 pm: |
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Ooops! Posted the above post in the wrong place |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 63
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 07:24 pm: |
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Thumper, my slip aint showing--I don't wear one. And what exactly is a slip anyway? Not being able to name a good hip hop/street book and not CHOOSING to name the hip hop books I have read are 2 entirely different things. I have already conceded that the ones I have read so far are poorly written. I have also stated that I haven't done much reading of any kind over the past year because I have spent the time writing my first novel. But I am still going to see what's out there and get back to you.
Jmho,
Sorry if I misunderstood the intentions of your post. Yes you are correct, the 3 hip hop books that I have read don't compare with sista souljahs book, however, I would still like the opportunity to read others and get back with the board later on that. I feel that to name the ones I read would be like throwing raw bloody meat to a bunch of sharks and you guys would rip them to shreds. Now Im not calling anyone a shark its just a metaphor. But since I have already conceded that they werent well written what's the point? Besides, if you wanna know the truth, one of the authors gave me a couple of the books that I read, and I don't necessarily want her books to be the first ones disected here.
Yukio
When I said that you waffled on your stance on whether or not there is a place in the literary world, I said that because on my first thread you seemed to agree that one sector of our community, a small one I might add, deciding to write about there experiences does not reflect on the entire community and that that small sector has a right to tell their stories, but on some of your later posts you seem to back away from that thought. Now, I know that you have not been attacking me, and i apologize if I have caused you to feel that way. I would have taken the portions of your posts that I am speaking about and pasted them here, but then I would have had to begin this daggone post all over again. Maybe I'll do it later.
Peace! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 282
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 08:17 pm: |
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kathleen_Cross: Oh no...please don't go! You comments are always refreshing...I just remember chrishayden's posts...
A_womon: No that is too much work...don't paste unless ya have the time and desire. I continue to believe that folks writing don't reflect the entire community or socalled race, but this is just fact.
I am a pragmatist and I try to be a truthteller, however. I simultaneously know, that many in our community don't feel as I do. Consequently, what they believe in terms of action will often have more signigicance than my minority opinion. In addtion, in the past and present holding people to a racial measuring tape has helped us gain support...other times it has been the voice of the minority among us that has helped us...the modern civil rights movement was a youth movement which the NAACP fought tooth and nail throughout the 50s, 60s, and especially the 70s...this is complicated, indeed.
What have I said could be contradictory, if you're debating in a classroom or one is so principled that their perspectives and actions rigidly consistent.
Now, what am I talking about in the real world?
Last night I saw a rerun of Shield:
A black youth lynched another black youth and shot a chicano priest to incite a "race riot" between chicanos and blacks. The murder didn't want blacks and chicanos to have agreement and peace, since black beliefs, values, and culture would go...It is quite true that such a transformation means that old bonds and ways of thought must change and of course, this can be uncomfortable for people reared and attached to a particular culture. In others words, to be black was to be against chicanos as well as to affirm one's own culture and identity as black people.
In this thread and the other, we are talking about changing from a rigid notion of blackness to a human more diverse version of blackness. But like the murder in Shield, this is uncomfortable for many; it means that the past, familar notion of being black must be stretched, transformed. And indeed, this may mean that we lose things and have to be more agreeable(unlike the murder)to other concepts and people and arrangements. So far we've done well and for the most part always have, we have embraced Eninem, we have embraced white jazz artists, and many of us, particularly these young girls, embraced Justin Timberlake.
Yet, there are many things that we still can not do and still be considered "black." Inter-racial dating, skiing, voting republican, etc...
Of course, this may mean be look our already weak voting support base: In a two party system where black folk are beginning to feel comfortable to vote Republican and many black folks are so "human" that for many we are all individuals and every man and woman is for his and her self, black consciousness is often replaced by self-interest. This is how some describe California...
This could also mean that culturally, black people aren't consider beautiful. In a recent article in New York Times, it talked about how interracial marriage was good and how they produced beautiful people...of course, all these groups were missed with caucasians....their long hair, light eyes, and light complexions is what was beautiful, of course. Again, this is how some describe California.
If we return to the shield program, we can say ok two groups people of color will build coalistions...maybe...maybe not!
So no, I'm not waffling, I'm just aware of the ramifications...and I'm placing this conversation into larger cultural social and political terms, because at the end of the day-thats what we're talking about!
Personally, I embrace full humanity and blackness at the same time. I'm not gonna hold people to a black measuring tape; but I will continue and always fight for issues that pertain to black people and people of color in general; sometimes this is difficult. Again, this is the typical dilemma when black authors want to be great authors rather than great black authors....this is a very old discussion.
Most of my comments are learned from fiction...Achebe's Things Fall Apart and The River Between by Ngugi Thiongo. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 64
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 09:02 pm: |
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Hey Yukio, How old are you? Do you have an email address that I can send you something? Please allow me to expand on something you said in your previous thread and give you my take on it.
You always make pretty profound statements. But what do you think about this:
Just as communism and democracy, once at either end of the spectrum are moving closer together and will one day be indistigushable, So hip hop and whitebread america are doing the same. There are more white kids than ever adopting the hip hop way of life, the way they dress, their music, what they read, the lines that once clearly separated us are becoming a blur. It is not just the AA community that the powers that be are playing to when they dole out the money making marketing strategies that are geared toward the younger generation. It is a broad spectrum of cultures that have embraced hip hop in whatever form (I think mostly white kids) that is creating this new demand and new love for all things hip hop.
Do you think that it is a coincidence that all of the sudden these big conglomerate publishing houses are gobbling up street fiction at this time in our lives?
What else drives you, Yukio? I am a little weary championing hip hop/street fiction at the moment, (though I intend to revisit it after I have paid a visit to the bookstore this weekend.) What is on and poppin' with you? What I'm asking is what are you passionate about. I have let mine hang all the way out! LOL |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 284
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 10:23 pm: |
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A_womon: racerebels@hotmail.com
I'm of the hip hop generation, between 15-40. I am younger than most, here.
How old are u? And happiness drives me...what ever that means!
I don't think communism and democracy are moving closer that their becoming indistinguishable. Where is your example? Perhaps, you're talkin about the welfare state, which does provide services through the state, but this country is certainly not a fusion of democracy and communism... nor is it a democracy, but thats another story. Well, there is certainly a cultural shift. White folk, especially as youth, have always embraced black culture. And yes, many of us have assimilated. The blurring of the lines i feel is a class phenomena, as well as a question of demographics and region. In addition, many blacks in the south have maintained their traditions as well as attained wealth...this is what Skip Gates program illustrated. Also, I wonder how long the lines can be culturally blurred. As adults who pay taxes, own property, and want to maintain the integrity of their schools and communities, there is a possibility that these kids who listen to hip hop now will be the liberals and conservatives of the future...
As I and ABM have stated, all that can sell will be sold; this is what i meant when I said that culture is commodified. There is a long history of this...ask many of our broke blues artists. Similarly, this is not very different from US companies moving to socalled third world countries for cheap labor...there is a commodity and there is a market. The educated black female population is reading, so now white folk and a few black taken advantage of this market.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 65
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 10:51 pm: |
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I am between 15 and 30, since you don't want to be specific.
Democracy is moving toward communism as we are losing more and more of our civil liberties under penalty of law. We are losing choices every day example: Where I work we must get direct deposit to get paid. No choice. Example, if I go to the library to check out a book, some government entity is trying (have they succeeded?) to find out what it is I'm reading. The same thing with which web sites I visit, so that it can all be placed in a government database somewhere. What is the purpose? Is this loss of these basic type freedoms (privacy and choice) not edging us closer to communism? The flip side of that is former communist states are gaining more freedoms. Example; the right to hold public elections. do I need to give you more/better examples?
I am about to email you. hit me back on my email. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 285
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:07 pm: |
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A_womon:
Why as age? At any rate, what does age have to do with it...lmao?
What you describe is not communism; What has been happening since the 1890s this is called bureucracy, socalled efficiency, integration and coordination of data. Communism is a form of government. The USSR's is just one version is particular form of communism. Of countries have praciticed different versions...give me a couple of days and I'll have books that discuss these countries and different forms of communism that have been implimented throughout the world. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 66
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:22 pm: |
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AAAAAAAhhhh Yukio,
You are the one that brought up age, remember? You said you probably were not much older than me. So I wanted to know, no biggie.
Ok about the books |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 286
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:44 pm: |
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AAAAAAhhhh A_Womon: I made the point about not being much younger than you after you stated:"I don't know maybe its just a generation type gap here." My point was that there is probably very little gap between our ages. Consequently, the feelings you seemed to have with myself and others had to do with something else.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 67
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:54 pm: |
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Yukio,
I see you also have a sense of humor.
You said older! LOL
*see your post around 3pm this thread
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 287
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:59 pm: |
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yes, yes, yes....u got me! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 398
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 12:28 am: |
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Yukio, your chronological age takes a back seat to the fact that you are obviously an old soul. You did a good job of explaining that it is something other than a drift toward Communism that is tying up this country. Capitalism is not about to be usurped by Communism in America.
A_womon, white kids wear hip-hop like a garment, which is to say that at some point, they divest themselves of it and move on in a world which allows them to be upwardly mobile. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 291
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 11:13 am: |
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Hmmmm...Am I an old soul? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 400
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 01:05 pm: |
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Yes, Yukio. In all of my Zen wisdom, I'd say you've been here a couple of times before. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 156
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 02:26 pm: |
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Cynique,
You know you are feeding me Yukio comedy material again. But I will try to abstain. |
Eviana
Veteran Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 54
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 03:28 pm: |
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Although I'm considerably late to this thread, I must admit that it is a interesting one. My only opinion of it is that even though hip/hop writing is severely looked down upon it stills tells of our era in history.
I can't help to think how did people back in slavery times feel when they learned that there were people writing about the abuse they were experiencing. The hangings, the rapes, the murders and so much more. Probably the same way that some of you feel about hip/hop books. But what have these books written in that era done for us? It told us what it was like living in those times, we learned from those books, and honor the authors who wrote them. Even though hip/hop books are written by those that are causing the trouble, what will people learn about our era from these books and how will they grow in the future? Just as we can't talk to those who were slaves, well in the future we won't be around to talk to people and tell them what it was like dodging a bullet, as A_Womon put it, but they will know what some of our people had to live through and the reason why because of these books.
I'm not taking sides, I want to make that clear because I believe that people have the right to read and like whatever fits them without being attacked for it, but so far I haven't read why these books are a necessity and that could only be done if I added my imput.
Abm, What are you trying to say? I thought your comment was funny in the other post, but this is the first time that I posted in this thread. Completely out of order although I still had to shake my head and smile. LOL. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 295
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 04:05 pm: |
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Cynique: I've thought so myself, somtimes...
Thank u, for your comments. |
Solomonjones
Regular Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 31
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 02:52 pm: |
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Cynique -
You said, "white kids wear hip-hop like a garment, which is to say that at some point, they divest themselves of it and move on in a world which allows them to be upwardly mobile."
That is a brilliant and true observation. According to Soundscan, white kids buy most of the Hip Hop music (70 percent was the last number I heard). They do so, I suspect, because they like it. But on a deeper level, their interest in Hip Hop is rebellion against the rules and boundaries of their own culture. It is an attempt to establish their own identities. I'd be interested to know what proportion of the Hip Hop literature they buy, as well. But I digress.
One oft-repeated sentiment on this thread is that whites are exploiting blacks by delving into the Hip Hop literature business. That's true to a limited extent (unless you count the bookstore chains and distributors that are suddenly willing to carry these books). To their credit (or the lack thereof) blacks are exploiting each other through the proliferation of Hip Hop literature. Much of the Hip Hop lit is self-published or semi-self published by boutique publishing houses run by the writers themselves. These writers and publishers have discovered a fertile market and they're serving it. They will continue to do so until the market dries up. That's just good business. But again, I digress.
Another oft-repeated sentiment on this thread is that the writers of these books are or have been drug dealers. How do we know that? Many of the Hip Hop artists who claim to be killers, thugs, drug dealers or hustlers are not. They are saying what they have to say in their music in order to make it as Hip Hop artists. Can't the same be true of Hip Hop writers?
Finally, as far as the quality of the writing in Hip Hop literature, why should these savvy writers and publishers upgrade the quality of their product (spending more resources on editing and thus reducing their bottom line) if readers will buy the product as-is?
In the words of Arsenio Hall, it kinda makes you say "Hmmmmm . . ."
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 478
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 04:39 pm: |
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You make some interesting points, Solomonjones. Especially when you observe that is possible for people to pass themselves off as being hip-hop in order to cash in on the craze. BTW, your book is on my summer reading list, |
Solomonjones
Regular Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 32
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 10:22 am: |
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Thanks, Cynique. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 137
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 11:06 am: |
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Solomonjones,
Why is it "exploitation" for blacks to buy these books? Please explain this to me if you don't mind?
I think it is just more labling where non is needed in our community, just like back in the day when a lot of black movies like cleopatra jones, the mack, and blacula, to name a few, were popular and gave our community something to look at other than white faces on the big screen, they were labled "blaxploitation films".
What is the purpose of labels? |
Solomonjones
Regular Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 34
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 02:33 pm: |
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A-womon -
I never wrote that it was exploitative for blacks to buy Hip Hop literature.
What I wrote was "... blacks are exploiting each other through the proliferation of Hip Hop literature ... writers and publishers have discovered a fertile market and they're serving it ... That's just good business."
What that means is that writers and publishers are supplying the readers' demand. Are some of the books poorly edited and written? Perhaps. Are the plots lacking? Maybe. But readers like the books. That's all that matters.
I think that it all goes back to economics (property taxes fuel school systems, so if a community's property is inferior, its schools are, too). These poor educational systems have left many of us unable to enjoy more challenging literary material. Thus, a market is created. One that can be exploited. And from a business standpoint, it is wholly appropriate to serve -- and yes, exploit -- that market.
If some readers are willing to pay the same or higher prices for poorly written books (and this is not to say all Hip Hop Lit is poorly written, because it's not), then someone should sell those books to them. Are writers exploiting that market by selling them inferior (in terms of editing, grammar, plotting, etc.) materials? Perhaps this analogy, which is also rooted in economics, will clear it up for you.
Is it exploitation when corner store owners sell old food, inferior hair products (ratty weaves, etc.), and overpriced household supplies in neighborhoods where disinvestment has made supermarkets disappear? Is it appropriate for them to sell these inferior and overpriced products when redlining, poverty, and poor credit has made it impossible for many residents to buy cars that can take them to cheaper supermarkets in outlying neighborhoods, thus creating a captive market?
If it's not, then it's not exploitation to sell overpriced, poorly edited and poorly written books to a willing readership that has also been created by oppressive economic and educational conditions.
But whether it's exploitation or not, I think that writers and publishers should continue to sell these books and make all the money they can. It's the right business decision. One that is fueled by the simplest of economic principles: supply and demand. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 138
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 08:52 pm: |
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Solomonjones,
Okay you broke it down to me and when you put it in those terms (comparing the cornerstore exploitation of poor people to poorly written books) I do have a better understanding of what you were saying.
Thanks! |
Philly_bbw
First Time Poster
Username: Philly_bbw
Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 25, 2004 - 02:20 pm: |
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As far as "Street Novel's" go, I rather enjoy reading them, but I don't enjoy the typo's and having to try and figure out what the author meant to say. Speaking your experience is wonderful, but an editor should be sought so that the rest of us can comprehend. It pisses me off every time I pick up a Triple Crown or Black Print book. You want to come up, and sell the bok for a couple of chips, but on every page you have at least ten typo's or words used in the wrong content. I say educate the people and pass it on so that we can move out of that "we are a minority" state of thinking and come up as a people in the majority. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1411
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 26, 2004 - 12:23 pm: |
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Amen to that, Philly-bbw. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 574
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 06:26 pm: |
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Philly: How do you feel about "Street Novels" (Without the apostrophe. Don't worry about it. I know it was a typo. Nobody's perfect, write?...Err, I mean, 'right?') How do you feel about "Street Novels" that are purposely written in the vernacular of the street. Also, how do you suppose we come out of the "minority state of thinking" and come up as a "people in the majority"? The reason I ask is because, assuming you are African American so I'm going to take license and include you in my 'us', I have always thought of 'us' as a minority. If the majority is white america, aren't we already a people 'among' the majority? Unless of course you are not AA and you don't include yourself among those who may want to, wait a minute. I want to get this quote right, "...come up, sell a bok for a couple chips". Now, are these people you are talking about selling 'boks' for potato chips, poker chips, buffalo chips...what? You seem to be a somewhat enlightened critic on the subject of 'Street Novels'. Enlighten us. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 807
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 27, 2004 - 07:27 pm: |
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hahahaha! Lambd,lambd, lambd. I think street fiction writers should stop trying to assimilate (if they ever were trying!) to the literary tomes and qualifications. I think that they should demand another genre be created just like they created hip-hop and rap for music. And I think it should be called STRAP FICTION, or STRAP SHOP FICTION... NAH! That sounds too S&M! Hold up...lemme think about this some MORE!! Hahahaha! |
Philly_bbw
Newbie Poster
Username: Philly_bbw
Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 05:10 pm: |
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As far as the typo's went, that comes from typing quickly and not re-reading. As for the rest, am as african american as the next sistah. And selling a book for chips i assumed, in all of the years i've been black, that chips meant money. maybe i'm wrong...who knows. anywho, i don't mind the vernacular when used in a speaking voice, but for the entire book to be littered with wassups and ya'means thats a bit much. especially since a lot of the people reading those books don't talk like that on a regular basis meaning @ work, etc. I'm a published author, and used slang in it, but i also made the book understandable to not just AA but who ever decides to pick my book up and read it. And, in my 'world' being a minority is a way of thinking. most people consider themselves a monirity because of their living condition or job status. the real question is what are those, or should i say, we as a so called minority doing to become part of the majority? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 1447
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 05:26 pm: |
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Philly_bbw,
What do you mean by "doing to become part of the majority"?
Because it seems to me, the only way Black foks can affect THAT feat would be for all of us to start having babies at 6 - 8 times the rate of White foks. (And I dare not mention the Hispanics.)
Hehe! |
Philly_bbw
Newbie Poster
Username: Philly_bbw
Post Number: 8
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 - 05:42 pm: |
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Abm,
LOL...I hear you on that. What I'm saying is, and I don't expect anyone to agree, is that I noticed the people around me on a daily basis are content with just working 9 to 5 or getting a welfare check. Why not own our own businesses, and spread the word on how to do so. We, meaning AA, tend to try to keep everything a secret because we always want to be better than the next instead of helping to get the next man through where we've been. In every neighborhood we have 10 chinese and spanish owned stores. Where are ours? I'm going through a program now so that I can apply for grants so that I can open up my first Plus Size clothing store. and i say my first because i hope to have a chain of them. There is money just sitting for the purpose of opening small business and alot of "us" don't know about them or even how to get the info to apply for them. When I say step up to the Majority Plate, I mean (in slang terms) ball just as hard as the next to get where you need to be. And more importantly, once you make it to the top help the next person get there so it won't have to be lonely.
and getting back to the subject at hand, I was saying that I enjoy street fiction i just don't enjoy all the errors. I was reading a book recently and the typos got so bad that i pulled out a highlighter and started highlighting them as i read. i was so fixed on the typo's that i couldn't enjoy the story. and i don't mean spelling 'that' as 'dat', i mean basic stuff that if the book was edited properly the few typo's that always manage to slip through wouldn't have mattered. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 581
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 10:01 am: |
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I see where you're coming from, now Philly. I agree.
Mad props on your business, too. I used to be a sole proprietor, also. I was fairly successful for about seven years. Then I gave it up. I think I had the wrong niche. Now I'm a working stiff again.
Good luck with your thing though. Hey! Why not walk the walk and help the next brother or sister through by posting some ideas on how to start a business, where to get the capital, and some general business ideas? I'm all for Black-owned-business. (So long as the owner don't git so high-fallutin' that they start lookin' down on us workin' class schmoes. Remember, we're the number one consumer, dammit!) |
Philly_bbw
Newbie Poster
Username: Philly_bbw
Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 - 06:48 pm: |
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I here you on that, and thanks for the props. I'm a working stiff myself right now, but there is a program here in Philly called Uplift that has tons of info for starting businesses and what have you. So, as not to get my info twisted, I will look at the literature I have at home and post the info so that we can all make it. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 582
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 08:51 am: |
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Good lookin' out, Philly!
Ahh Yess! Another great idea, from yours truly. Please don't thank me, folks. Just send your checks and money orders payable to LAMBD c/o the Lamb-dee Foundation for Former Business Owners and Other Such Broke-Azz Mofos, Washington, D.C. 20016. |
Philly_bbw
Newbie Poster
Username: Philly_bbw
Post Number: 14
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 10:05 pm: |
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LOL @ Lambd...u r two much!
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