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A_womon
First Time Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 12:38 pm: | 
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Hip-Hop and Street writers and others whose writings are not considered to be culturally uplifting to AA culture: DO YA DAMN THANG! Keep writing no matter what. I am so sick of being labled whenever a sector of our community which isn't considered "James-Baldwin like" begins to spin some very good and even some that may not be so good, stories about where they live, it is considered to be a reprensentation of our entire culture! We are more than just one community, and who says we can't indulge in a little trash writing without it being an indictment on our entire culture and without some non forward thinking people entertaining the idea that this will be the only type reading and writing that or culture will endulge in? Puh-leeze gimme a break!! I enjoy reading all ends of the spectrum and I resent anyone trying to put AA writers in a box and try and tell us there is something wrong with writing whatever it is you feel like writing. White people: are you all writing culturally uplifting material? Hmmmm remember Jackie Collins, and I could name more. And please don't call me racist cause I am pointing out some things here. Quit labling an entire culture because some people have different stories to tell. SO WHAT? There have been, and always will be AA scholars and sociall conscious authors writing at the other end of the spectrum and there books will be bought and read as well! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 247
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 01:41 pm: |
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A_womon: There is a similar thread that you may find interesting:
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/1039.html?1082626287 |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 01:43 pm: |
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thank you! yukio. I am new at this, are you a published writer? |
Emanuel
Newbie Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 15
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 05:40 pm: |
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A_womon: I'm with ya on that one. You'll see my reply on the link Yukio provided. Nikki Giovanni discusses the hazards of lumping all black people in one category in her book "Racism 101." This is why I keep an open mind with all the books I read for review. I liked "The End of Blackness" by Debra Dickerson but I also enjoyed "Thugs Are For Fun" by J.Gail. With over 12.5 million of us in this country, we're bound to have different opinions. So keep reading what you like. I ain't mad at ya at all.
Regards,
Emanuel Carpenter
www.geocities.com/emanuelcarpenter
P.S. Before you ask, yes I am published. My book is "A Job Ain't Nothing But Work: Confessions of a Corporate Negro." My short story and bio will be featured in next year's Bylines calendar (www.bylines2004.com). Another short story will appear in The Other Half Magazine in July. I review for The Midwest Book Review. Plus, I'm currently shopping my novel about love, sex, and relationships. |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 06:34 pm: |
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congrats emanuel! I am going through the process of getting published. I sent a query letter to a publisher along with a one page sample of my work and they requested my entire manuscript. I was wondering if any has gotten this far and still been rejected?
thanks for the vote of support on my opinion, too! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 248
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 12:16 am: |
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A_womon:
No, I'm not. I would like to publish...one day. |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 08:12 pm: |
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Well said, A_woman! Get a username that's easier to type, tho. Sta real. Screw the wannabee's! |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 08:48 pm: |
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Thanks Lambd, are you a published author? What is your opinion on what I said about rejection letters?
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 352
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 11:51 pm: |
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There are 2 sides to every story. I don't think people who prefer more literal books are any more judgmental than those who think hip-hop books are "the bomb" and should be praised to the max. Why is it such a crime to refer books that contain complete sentences and correct punctuation and original story lines??? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 251
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 01:33 am: |
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there are a trillion sides to the same story...lol! |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 35
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 03:40 am: |
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Cynique wrote:
There are 2 sides to every story. I don't think people who prefer more literal books are any more judgmental than those who think hip-hop books are "the bomb" and should be praised to the max. Why is it such a crime to refer books that contain complete sentences and correct punctuation and original story lines.
Cause you're not being Black. lol Couldn't resist. What I find most interesting is some writers want to write trash, as one poster wrote, and there are readers who like reading it. But, then we others call it trash, the self-proclaimed trash writers and readers get all puffy in the jaws. They start wanting to revoking race card memberships, as if they really think they can. A person disagrees with their opinion, then they immediately start questioning another's 'blackness'. That's so played out. |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 06:33 am: |
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The bomb? you mean da bomb? LOL
Jmho that reply sounds more than a little snooty. Who are you trying to impress? Your answer is just what I mean, there is room for every type of writing and reading in this community--your preference or non preference doesn't make you any better or any more educated than anyone else. As I said before, I enjoy reading all books, and black people are not the only ones reading and writing "trash" A little less haterade please. |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 06:56 am: |
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PS some of the debates about hip hop writing and street writing on this board smack of the same type things that were said (and some are still saying) about hip hop and rap music a decade ago! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 354
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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Yes, these controversial comments are the same as they were 10 years ago, A-womon, because the situation hasn't changed. Just because hip-hop has become widespread doesn't mean it has become better. And being discriminating is not synonymous with being snooty. Is liking hip-hop the same as being semi-literate? |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 05:52 pm: |
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semi-literate?! hardly! able to look at more than one type,style or genre of writing and appreciate it's worth? ABSOLUTELY! Just because certain writers have a hard time writing grammatically correct sentences, with the correct punctuation doesn't mean they are not good storytellers. And the reverse would also be true. Perfectly structured sentences does not a good story teller make, which perhaps is why so many of the grammatically
challenged are seeing their works in print and selling well, while so many scholars in this area who aspire to see their "masterpieces" in print on a book store shelf,keep getting rejection letters! Say what you will, but that is a fact. My thing is do you always dine on caviar and lobster or do you eat mcdonalds every now and then? Cynique, are you a book reviewer?
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A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 17
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 06:58 pm: |
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cynique--here's an idea, i have read on this board that you are a terrific editor, why not offer your services to some of these hip/hop street writers, for a nominal fee at first and see what the response is? How do we know that these writers wouldn't welcome the help of a good editior before they go to print unless we ask? who knows, since this genre is growing, it could become a lucrative buisness for you....matter of fact I might take my own idea and use it!!!! |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 107
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:24 pm: |
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Some of us prefer to read what we like because we like it, while some of us prefer to read what people tell us we should. That is the beauty of this country. We prefer what we prefer. However, one side shouldn't look down on the other because of their preferences.
JMHO..you need a sense of humor. Get your nose out of the air and into a variety of reading material. It may do you some good. Being black does not mean that you have to look down on other people in order to make yourself fit in with the 'upper crust'. Maybe you should take another look at which way the crust rolls when it crumbles. We have great minds and huge talents in hip-hop. We also have huge talents on the social side of the spectrum. The only diffence is that the social side seems small when you take into account how open their minds usually are. I know for a fact that most of you caviar eaters are washing it down in the back room with the Blue Bull. |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 18
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 07:44 pm: |
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My deah Lambd, veddy well enunciated!!! LOL |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 254
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 10:18 pm: |
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The moral of the story is that black community, like all groups, is heterogeneous. Consequently, black writers should be able to embrace their full humanity, which may mean not necessarily producing art that is not conducive to our freedom movement. |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 20
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 10:49 pm: |
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AMEN! YOU SAID IT! Yukio!
What about all of the gangster movies that made Humphrey Bogart and James Cagney stars? Bet wasn't nobody worried about how all those movies would impact young people back then. They were probably more concerned about being entertained. And as time went on, movies began to reflect other aspects of that culture. Who's to say that over time, the same thing won't happen in this culture? It's the same with books.
The thing that's scary to me is you already have people in power drawing lines with big red crayons on what can be seen in the media at large. How long before they begin redacting what we can read? Why help them along by censoring ourselves? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 361
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 11:57 pm: |
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No, A-womon, I am not a book reviewer, nor do I harbor any interest in plowing my way through a manuscripts written by authors who probably can't take contructive criticism. Nowadays it's all I can do to read a well-written book because -altogether everybody - CYNIQUE HAS DEVELOPED A SHORT ATTENTION SPAN AND WANTS TO MOVE INTO A STUDIO APARTMENT ALL BY HERSELF AND DREAM ABOUT ARAGORN. sigh. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 255
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:13 am: |
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Cynique: you are so funny...I hope it works out, but make sure you have room for company, just in case I wanna see Chitown. |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 23
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:42 am: |
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Ok cynique, but when my editing business takes off,im a billionaire and they are interviewing me on cnn among others, i don't want to hear you crying on this board about not sharing my vision for the future! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 364
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 12:59 am: |
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You can sleep on the floor, Yukio. Bring your own pillow.
A-womon, missing out on lucrative enterprises is the story of my life. Po me. |
A_womon
Newbie Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 24
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 01:09 am: |
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LOL well, i might consider asking you again right before business takes off! |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 36
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 08:28 am: |
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Lambd wrote:
JMHO>>>Why are you even here?
Because I want to be here. Perhaps you need to ask yourself the same question.
Lambd wrote:
You seem to be defending the right to critique something that you haven't seen.
Well, you are mistaken. I posted TWO reviews of the play by those who have seen the play. I never said that anyone should have the right to critique anything they haven't seen, read or heard. With all this talk of what I need to do, you would good to to actually read what's written. You are trying to argue against a point that no one has actually stated, in this discussion. Perhaps reading all that "trash" does havoc on one's ability to comprehend what's actually written, eh?
Lambd wrote:
This is supposed to be an African American based site.
There isn't a "supposed to be", it is an African American based site.
Lambd wrote:
I am convinced that you need to turn in YOUR membership card.
And, you're convinced that what's written really isn't, so you're being convinced of anything, doesn't mean a thing.
Lambd wrote:
BTW. Just kidding about the whole username thing. I didn't think you would take a crack at your username so personally.
I didn't, just made an observation. When called out on immature behavior, your response: just kidding. Whatever. And, I see that you continued true to form with the following:
Lambd wrote:
Maybe you should try a username that isn't so close to your heart like, "Icritiqueblacksbasedonwhatpeoplesayabouthemratherthanformingmyownopinions"
And, maybe you should learn how to read, since I haven't criticqued blacks based on what people had to say. In fact, you said that if someone on this board posted an opinion then you would take it to heart, though you hadn't seen the play. Not only you not reading what others type, you're not even reading what you type. lol |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 122
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 08:29 am: |
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Hello All,
A_womon: Time for some education I see. Watch me closely. You wrote:
"And the reverse would also be true. Perfectly structured sentences does not a good story teller make, which perhaps is why so many of the grammatically
challenged are seeing their works in print and selling well, while so many scholars in this area who aspire to see their "masterpieces" in print on a book store shelf,keep getting rejection letters! Say what you will, but that is a fact."
And therein lies the tragedy. While most of what you say is true. I have read books where the the writing was grammatically correct and the books were extremely boring. I've also read books that were not expertly edited, but the story was fascinating. All of what you wrote was to say what? That as long as this so called hip hop fiction is being bought up that the rest of us should shut up, and roll with the punches? *eyebrow raised* I don't think so. There is a thread somewhere on the board where I summed up the basic premise of all the current hip hop novels that have been coming out lately. I ain't impressed with that same ol gangsta revenge plot. Now just because all this is brand new to you, doesn't mean its brand new to the rest of us, cause it aint. When Cynique said, Yes, these controversial comments are the same as they were 10 years ago, A-womon, because the situation hasn't changed. Just because hip-hop has become widespread doesn't mean it has become better. And being discriminating is not synonymous with being snooty. Is liking hip-hop the same as being semi-literate?" She was absolutely right. No need in being offend, maybe you need to check out the books I read and then if you are still comfortable playing the Don Quixote for hip hop fiction, more power to ya.
While I got you here, let me clue you into a few more things. You wrote: "What about all of the gangster movies that made Humphrey Bogart and James Cagney stars? Bet wasn't nobody worried about how all those movies would impact young people back then. They were probably more concerned about being entertained. And as time went on, movies began to reflect other aspects of that culture. Who's to say that over time, the same thing won't happen in this culture?"
Actually, you're wrong. Plenty of people were worried about the movies Hollywood was putting out, that's why Hollywood was being censored by the Hayes office. Every script from 1928 to the early 60s (I'm approximating the dates) had to be approved by the Hayes office before it went before a camera, and then the movie was viewed and edited in order to fit the censors criteria. Furthermore, Hollywood wasn't only putting out those gangster movies either, but I won't go into all that. Wrapping this section up by saying, you're wrong.
You wrote: The thing that's scary to me is you already have people in power drawing lines with big red crayons on what can be seen in the media at large. How long before they begin redacting what we can read? Why help them along by censoring ourselves?
Well, I guess right now you must be absolutely terrified with fright because I do have standards when it comes to books and stories. There is a difference between having standards and censorship. It's not the subject matter, its the quality of the writing that I am protesting. I love writers who know and have a love for the craft of writing. I make no apologizes. |
A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 26
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 09:06 am: |
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Thumper-Ouch!! I think I just got spanked! I can take it though. I gotta go to work right now but trust and beleive I will be getting back to you on this one. Before I go I just gotta say how is it that you imagine that you can devine exactly what it is that I have read other than the obvious? I am very well read at both ends of the spectrum as you will discover. Let me reiterate--I LOVE READING MORE THAN ONE GENRE OF BOOKS! I can't wait til I get home. cya! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 203
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 01:44 pm: |
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Cynique:
You said you got issues. I thought you was kidding around.
Chile, you got issues. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 256
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 01:53 pm: |
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A_womon: here are a few threads for review...if you desire, of course.
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/1135.html?1083762403
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/980.html?1081877831
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/725.html?1075943164
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/687.html?1074528319
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/648.html?1073600093 |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 367
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 03:49 pm: |
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Did I ever say I had issues, Chris? If suffering from a overload of people in my space is an issue, than I guess I do have issues. But bear in mind, that I'm never ever to be taken too seriously. |
Eviana
Regular Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 47
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 05:53 pm: |
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A_Woman,
As you probably have figured out by now that posters on this board will defensively attack you when they strongly believe what they're saying. Sometimes even as you did will contradict themselves.
A good publisher will have a good editing team working for them, period. This is another reason why books tend to have the same grammatical usage. An author will generally have to sign off on or tell the editor not to change the dialogue, narration or so forth to keep the grammar as is. If not then it will be changed to proper grammar.
Thumper,
That's all that you had to say. Sometimes you get so worked up over someones opinion that it makes me have an "eyebrow raised" at you. What's the deal? Why do you have such a hard time allowing people to express their opinions without busting a vein? And just so you know I still stand by my opinion that The Package by Nicklas Maddox and Nea Williams is still the best book that I've read this year.
Cynique,
You are the girl. I enjoy reading your posts and the honesty in them. You are the true meaning to 'You Go Girl!' |
A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 27
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 08:15 pm: |
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Eviana,
You said it! No wonder some posters choose to remain anonymous! The moderater of this board seems to be hovering in the cut waiting for the chance to pounce and yell "WHO'S HOUSE IS DIS?!!!" and then all us newbies are supposed to shrink back in fear and reply humbly "It's Big Daddy Thumper's house!" in unison I might add.
I aint scairt tho!
What a day I had at work. I think I am going to read some of the threads that Yukio provided for me before I take Big Daddy on again.
Thumper, before you choose to enlighten me, what tests do you have to determine if I have read enough(or any as you appear to believe) books that will qualify me to voice my opinion without you trying to cut me down? Would you like to begin with the Greek tragedies? Shall I pontificate on how Oedipus' love for his mother became so complex? Shall we get into politics and swap titles on "why they hate us" and debate the obvious on "why we stuck in th middle east?" Please enlighten me on how to recieve my "Qualified to Post and Have My Own Opinion Without Thumper Jumping Down My Throat Card"
Eviana,
You said: Sometimes even as you did will contradict themselves.
How have I contradicted myself?
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A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 28
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 08:30 pm: |
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LOL this is sooooooooooo funneeeeeeeeeee!!!!! I just read some of the threads that Yukio gave me and I am cracking up! I can't believe that the same ones who can't stand today's street/hip hop writers are praising the artistry of Iceberg Slim and them---the Godfathers of hiphop/street fiction. My dad used to call Iceberg slim's books the pimp and whore books and I was not allowed to read them. I guess he felt the same way you guys do about the new generation of street writers!!! |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 123
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 09:38 pm: |
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Hello All,
Eviana: Please. I have not busted a vein at all. Truth be told, I've mellowed out. Yes, I am passionate in what I think, but I don't feel the need to repeat the same opinion over and over and over and over and over and over again. Eviana, I am so sorry that I don't have the same enthusiam that you do for The Package. I'm pretty much over that though.
A_womon: I wasn't jumping down your throat. If that was your impression, I apologize. But I, like you, was just expressing my opinion with the same amount of feeling that you were defending hip hop novels. The book comment, I mentioned it because you haven't told us what books you are reading. Saying you read books from all genres is suppose to say what to me? *eyebrow raised* Quite a few of us here read books from different genres. The books I am reading or have read is out in the open.
As I and others have stated before, we were NEVER against the subject matter of the hip hop novels. I love Iceberg Slim, Donald Goines and the other lesser known AA writers of the genre. That has never been a secret. The difference is the QUALITY of the writing. After trying to read, 10-12 books of hip hop fiction in the last year, I'm stating, flat out, day aint got it. I am not saying that all writers should be a reincarnation of Shakespeare. It should matter that the craft of writing is studied and practiced, ESPECIALLY if young people are reading it. Yes, there are stories to tell, and they should be told. But I would think that the stories would at least recieve the best treatment they can possibly get. Aren't the stories worth it?
Ask yourself, why have the books of Iceberg Slim and Donald Goines lasted for so long? How are these books able to capture a new, younger, larger audience than when they were originally published over 30 years ago? I don't believe that there was a lot of editing going on with their books? Yet, these men of the streets were able to sit down and churn out novel after novel that is still being read decades after their death. Tell me that these men didn't know a little sumpin sumpin about the English language. Why shouldn't we expect the same from our authors today?
Big Daddy? *eyebrow raised* You got me over here feeling like ABM now. *LOL* |
A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 30
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 10:28 pm: |
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I'm smiling! Apology accepted Big--oops I mean Thumper. I gotta say though, I'm loving this board! Can I ask you something? Will you read the prologue of my book and give me honest feedback? Also would you read my question to Linda on "No wonder Negroes ain't readin" and hit me back. Then I will post my prologue. |
A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 31
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 10:34 pm: |
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PS Thumper, ok I admit that I believe that some of the hiphop/street writers need some serious editing. There is a difference in writing using street slang and writing poorly. I just didn't want to say that before I made some points here. I still say the stories should be told, and I still hope to make a billion editing these books cause if the books are making it into stores in this condition, then somebody somewhere aint on their job, YEW KNOW! |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 258
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 05, 2004 - 11:58 pm: |
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It would be interesting to find out if the readers of these novels notice the "bad grammar." If this is the case, perhaps editing wouldn't make any money! |
A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 35
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 01:46 am: |
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Yukio, i think i get your point, kinda. but you assume that all of the readers would be less than literate, i assume. But I am a reader and i noticed, so i am sure others will as well. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 259
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 08:39 am: |
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A_womon: Actually, I'm suggesting that editing for this population who read "hip hop" fiction grammar/punctuation may not be an issue. They can be either less "literate" or uninterested or both.
Also, if these people are great story tellers, perhaps the poor writing doesn't take away from the prose, though in my experience, it usually does...
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A_womon
Regular Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 39
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 06, 2004 - 09:23 pm: |
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Yukio,
You wrote:Also, if these people are great story tellers, perhaps the poor writing doesn't take away from the prose, though in my experience, it usually does
And therin lies the potential to aid these writers in being more palatable to readers like yourself and others. A lot of these writers are self publishing, or when they get a contract, they are giving others an entrance into the publishing world. I think as more of these writers land legitimate publishing contracts with established houses, the in house editors will be able to help them. I want to make myself available to those that aren't that lucky.
Thumper:
Did you decide to take a pass on reading my prologue? I am taking solomonjones advice and not posting it here, but I would still like to have your honest opinion on it.
Hey, where is everybody tonight? watching the last episode of "friends"? Cynique, I thought you didn't like that show. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 263
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 12:00 am: |
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Hmmmm...as I reread my post, I realized that I've not read fiction by a "good storyteller" whose grammar and punctuation aptitude was low or absent. I was, more or less, addressing the reality, however, of great story tellers as diffientiated from the writer with the basic writing skills, and the possibility that their narrative skills could mitigate their g &p aptitude.
Also, for the subj. clause: "though in my experience, it usually does...," I was actually thinking about non-fiction that is poorly written...but not because of the g&p, but because of the jargon, sentence density, and/or style. Sorry for the confusion, on my part at least.
Anyways, good luck!
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Eviana
Regular Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 49
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 01:47 pm: |
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Thumper,
As I share in your passion, I can't share in the variety of books you have probably read thus far this year. Exactly how many has it been so far? It seem that I repeat myself, because my list is not as long as yours. But even still how many times this year alone have your said "I LOVE THAT BOOK" or " I ADORE THAT BOOK" how about "I WOULD RECCOMMEND THAT BOOK"? If I had choosen a profession where books were given to me on a daily basis for my opinion of it, then I'm sure that it wouldn't seem as if I'm repeating myself because I would have plenty to make these statements about as well.
And I have continuously asked about different books and authors so as to read and hopefully enjoy them. Note in my post I said that was the best book that I read THIS YEAR not in my entire life. I glad to see that you have calm down some I can only imagine what you were like back then. LOL.
But as you said that is an issue solved, unfortunately when I read your post address to A_Woman I remembered the attack on me and had to speak my peace. You're still cool my brother, I think (smile). |
Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 109
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 02:43 pm: |
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Thumper, is the consensus that Donald Goines' books are poorly written because of bad grammar and punctuation? Or are his books well written because of the storytelling technique? Hmmmmm. I wonder what some of your inside out oreo posters have to say about this. I'm sure JMHO can't stand Goines or Iceberg. You see, Iceberg and Goines weren't widely accepted then because of their style of writing. JMHO tends to go with what mainstream white folks think the correct forms of writing should be. I'm sorry art is art. It could be good or it could be bad. It can never be wrong.
Your opinion could almost be worth two cents if it wasn't based on what other people think. Books can only be judged by the people who read them. An actors' performance can only be judged by the people who actually see them on stage. If I like Goines as well or better than I like The Illiad, does that make me a poor judge of art? No, that makes me a grown man with my own opinion. Now, if I like Sidney Portier's performance in Raisin in the Sun because I read in the newspaper about what a great job he did, then that makes me a jerk.>>>JMHO---Either you are an advocate for a new hip hop style of writing or you need to proofread your posts before you hit that button. I took some proofreading classes so I know it's not easy to do. You could get someone else to proof it for you and then post if you are having trouble. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 265
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 05:21 pm: |
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Now, I have yet to completely read an entire socalled "hip hop" novel. I have read several pages of one, and I'm sure that this person's fiction is not representative of all authors doing hip hop fiction. Nevertheless, I'm interested in what you guys think, considering the validity of some of my points. In other words, this is mainly an intellectual discussion that will take certain things for granted, a hypothetical discussion, if u will.
Ok:
It seems that many of the hip hop fiction neither have good stories nor good writing. Yet, again it seems, these writers have recently, as the ugogirl literature once did, marginalized the broader genre of black literature.
Now, it seems that we can all agree that black wrtiers, like all writers, should have the right, as artists and humans generally, to write about the human conditions, which means that writers should not have to bear the burden of their race.
At the same time, is it not also true that the burdens we carry are shaped and determined by the situations under which we live.
In other words, is there a middle ground? It seems that while folk should be able to write what they want, there also should be some recognition, indeed if it is the case, that the commericial fiction is detrimental to the group, and to some degree to literary black writers, whose fiction is often art with substance.
If all should be humans, we should also recognize that all is not equal and that we are not white folk, who have greater access to publishing companies, while people of color will mostly have access if their fiction fits the market for black fiction. In other words, fiction is fiction is fiction, but for the most part, fiction written by black people need to fit a particular black category, which is both racist and also, for the most part, out of control of the black literary community, assuming that they will not force other black writers into a socalled black category...this is what Erasure is about, NO? This is part of the lesson...
That while we want to be embrace as humans, as in producing whatever and however we want....we are often placed or coerced into a racial category by those with power or those believe their is an authentic black category....both racist.... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 382
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 06:10 pm: |
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Lambd, have you read any of Iceberg Slim or Donald Goines books? They are not poorly-written. That is why they are classics, and have earned their place in the vanguard of the "street" books genre.
You really overreact to his subject. I don't know how many times the consensus on this board is that there's no accounting for tastes and that people are entitled to read what they feel like reading, just as they are free to express why they prefer one genre over the other without being personally attacked. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 37
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 08:33 pm: |
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Lambd wrote:
JMHO tends to go with what mainstream white folks think the correct forms of writing should be.
You've made an accusation, so now offer up the proof. Find my post that you think backs up this claim. When you don't, a retraction should be sufficient.
Lambd wrote:
Books can only be judged by the people who read them. An actors' performance can only be judged by the people who actually see them on stage.
You said: "To tell you the truth I aint that interested in seeing Puffy on stage doing theatre", and there has been those who have seen the play who have offered their opinion. So why do you keep beating on this dead horse? You have no intentions of seeing the play yet want to complain about those who did see it and didn't like it. As much as you're defending this play you should have been first in the line the opening night.
Lambd wrote:
Now, if I like Sidney Portier's performance in Raisin in the Sun because I read in the newspaper about what a great job he did, then that makes me a jerk.>>>
Are you a jerk for going on and on about those who did see the play and wrote that his performance was lacking and less than stellar?
Lambd wrote:
JMHO---Either you are an advocate for a new hip hop style of writing or you need to proofread your posts before you hit that button. I took some proofreading classes so I know it's not easy to do.
You need to go and demand a refund. lol And, this ultimatium you've issued is nonsensical. I will never advocate trash. Be it classic fiction, comtemproary fiction or urban fiction or any other kind of fiction. I suggest that you formulate a coherent thought before clicking on 'post this message'.
Lambd wrote:
You could get someone else to proof it for you and then post if you are having trouble.
I don't have trouble reading, proofreading or comprehending what I've written. Sadly, you can't say the same. 
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Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 124
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 08:16 pm: |
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Hello All,
Eviana: You wrote, "But, even still how many times this year alone have your said "I LOVE THAT BOOK" or " I ADORE THAT BOOK" how about "I WOULD RECCOMMEND THAT BOOK"?"
I say "I LOVE THAT BOOK" alot. And truth be told, I hope to say it plenty more times in the near future. See, but the difference between me and you is that I've said that statement concerning a number of books, and not just ONE like you have. But you know the thing that I've learned doing this for a number of years is that just because someone say that don't like a book that I love, it is not a personal assault or insult against me, just a difference of opinion. *eyebrow raised* OK. A word to the wise is sufficient, now I'm moving on.
Lambd: I have not detected any grammatical errors in any Goines books that I read. I believe it is important to make clear the distinction between Goines and Slim's books and what is being written today. The main differences are in structure, story and character development, plot, narration, logic, and creativity. These are the reasons why I am able to read their books today and can't get past 10 pages of the new "books". From my understanding, back in the day, Goines and Slim was looked down on because of the subject matter of their books. I guess some people still have that same stance today.
Lambd and Jmho: I aint going to have to jump in between you two now, am I? *eyebrow raised* We are simply engaging in a discussion, no need to make it personal.
A_womon: I don't post on the board everyday. If you want to ask me to do something for you, email me. *smile*
Yukio: You know I love you when you're right. I agree wholeheartedly with what you have to say. We do categorize our fiction. I have always been opposed to that. Overall, I think we are hurting ourselves by that. There is more to us than just the U go girl books and the "new" hip hop books. Really, has anyone here read the new Dark Matter: Reading The Bones yet? Why not? I believe that once we, as a people, can learn to embrace all of the genres of our literature, we will be on the road to embracing our whole selves. But until that time we are imprisoning ourselves. |
A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 58
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 06:11 am: |
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Thumper You wrote:I believe that once we, as a people, can learn to embrace all of the genres of our literature, we will be on the road to embracing our whole selves. But until that time we are imprisoning ourselves.
That part of the post is all I have really been trying to say with each of my posts on the subject. You hit the nail on the head in one phrase!
I did try to email you, Thumper, but my email came back undeliverable. Is your email address Thumper@aalbc.com?
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 110
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:41 am: |
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I have read Goines and Iceberg Slim. Two of my favorites when I was coming up, especially Goines.
I thought that the subject matter as well as the style in which it was written was unique. They had their own way of storytelling that didn't SEEM to follow any rules. I suppose you could say that they used the vernacular of the street. This was the original draw and then the multifaceted characters grabbed me by the shirt collar and pulled me into the stories completely. So, yes, I have read Goines and Iceberg Slim. The errors in their writing really weren't errors at all. Not in their eyes or mine. Only in mainstream America at the time they were originally put forth. The mainstream didn't seem to get them at first. A corelation I failed to make clearly with the hip hop fiction writers of today.
Thumper, some posters feel that if they keep typing, eventually their argument will make sense. You will not have to separate us because if JMHO refuses to proofread her posts, I won't know how what she's arguing with me about anyway. Therfore, I will continue to ignore the ignorant.
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Lambd
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Lambd
Post Number: 111
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:43 am: |
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I have read Goines and Iceberg Slim. Two of my favorites when I was coming up, especially Goines.
I thought that the subject matter as well as the style in which it was written was unique. They had their own way of storytelling that didn't SEEM to follow any rules. I suppose you could say that they used the vernacular of the street. This was the original draw and then the multifaceted characters grabbed me by the shirt collar and pulled me into the stories completely. So, yes, I have read Goines and Iceberg Slim. The errors in their writing really weren't errors at all. Not in their eyes or mine. Only in mainstream America at the time they were originally put forth. The mainstream didn't seem to get them at first. A corelation I failed to make clearly with the hip hop fiction writers of today.
Thumper, some posters feel that if they keep typing, eventually their argument will make sense. You will not have to separate us because if JMHO refuses to proofread her posts, I won't know what she's arguing with me about anyway. Therfore, I will continue to ignore the ignorant.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 148
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 03:34 pm: |
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Is the issue being argued here really one of quality of writing or redundancy of subject matter? Some of you appear to asserting the former and others the later. Oh well, I don't know if I can add much there only to say that hip-hop literature is HARDLY the sole literary subgenre that lacks quality/uniqueness.
But, never the less, I will try to help to advance this discussion a bit.
You all make some very worthy points. But it is becoming increasingly difficult for me to get to worked up about the dearth of quality writing (no matter the subgenre) when it is clear that the author and/or the style/quality of her or his is writing is dwindling in importance. In the grander scheme of today's media, most writers, with a few rare exceptions, are trivial pawns to be wielded (then discarded) solely for profit by publishing companies, who are themselves being manipulated by their venal $billion multinational parent companies.
I tend to give writers a break, because I believe most writers, even those who write hip-hop lit are sincere about what they have to say (whether the writers are talented/skilled is of course another matter entirely.). Why do I believe that? Because it is too dang hard, time-consuming to crank out a +300 page book.
Isn’t what you all are discussing really less about the author and more about editorial, marketing and publishing decisions? For example, I think if many H/H books contain glaring errors is because the editors/publishers think that is what certain readers prefer. Moreover, I can see a scenario where an author wrote something that was worthy of Baldwin only to have their writing contorted to something written by 'Bee Bee'.
Just because some smoe wrote a book, doesn't mean Simon & Schuster and Bantam has to publish and promote it or that Amazon and Borders has to distribute and sell it. Frankly, I'd wager what most of you decry is really the product of people who have rarely, if ever, READ a hip-hop lit book, much less actually WRITTEN one.
All of the books are the same for the same reasons why all the music is the same, or why the styles/fashion are all the same, why Beyonce Knowles is really only Britney Spears with a permanent tan, etc. As media, A&E consolidates into fewer hands; desired artistic traits such as uniqueness, quality, etc., no matter the efforts of artists/writers, will continue to suffer.
Thumper/Eviana and Lambd/Jmho,
You sure can tell when Spring is here...cause even the cyber 'air' is filled with love.
Cynique,
You need to lemme camp out at your studio too when I roll thru Chi-town. I promise we'll have a blast. One thing though: I sleep in the raw. So don't worry if you think you're noticing a Black King Cobra hissing at you...it's only 'me'.<<wink!>> |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 394
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 10, 2004 - 06:17 pm: |
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All y'all lookin to camp out in my studio pad have to remember that it exists only in my fantasy. But who knows, one day maybe I'll abandon my 20-room mansion, fire all of my servants, divorce my millionaire husband and embrace the bohemian lifestyle. Decisions, decisions, - always decisions..... |
Eviana
Veteran Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 51
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 01:48 pm: |
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Whatever Abm LOL,
But Thumper,
I think you should stop raising your eyebrow and actually read what I post. You wrote the exact same thing that I did. What's up with that? I can only take it to mean that you agree with me and I can't be mad you for that LOL. |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 44
Registered: 03-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 05:40 pm: |
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Lambd wrote:
You will not have to separate us because if JMHO refuses to proofread her posts, I won't know how what she's arguing with me about anyway. Therfore, I will continue to ignore the ignorant
What's the point of not addressing me directly yet continue do so indirectly in posts to others? Now how childish is that? And, do you really think you're saving face when you're stumped and can't respond, but will jump into a different thread bringing along my name in your posts?
Seems you aren't proofreading your posts either. I am not even sure you know what the word means.
I wonder if you can ignore yourself? |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 127
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 05:13 pm: |
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Hello All,
Eviana: You wrote: "But Thumper,
I think you should stop raising your eyebrow and actually read what I post. You wrote the exact same thing that I did. What's up with that? I can only take it to mean that you agree with me and I can't be mad you for that LOL."
Thumper's Response: You might as well get mad at me and stay mad. It is obvious that YOU did not read MY post. My dear, you misunderstood my post. What I did was a cut and paste. The statements in quotes is indeed from your earlier post. My reply to that post is below it. Granted, I probably should have written "My Response" so that you know. At times I forget that not everyone is familiar with discussion board ettiquite. That said, needless to say, I did NOT agree with you. Your slip is showing too. Cynique could you please educate these sisters as to what a slip is?
Lambd: You wrote, "Thumper, some posters feel that if they keep typing, eventually their argument will make sense."
YES! Your comment is on point.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 70
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 07:34 pm: |
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Thumper,
it is not! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 418
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 09:47 pm: |
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A-womon, at Thumper's request I would venture to explain that Thumper's thing is for people to "come right, or don't come at all." To not do this, would be considered a "slip" by him.
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A_womon
Veteran Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 74
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 10:16 pm: |
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Thanks cynique, but girl you know that I already knew that right? I just didn't want' Thumper to think that he got me again! He is just soooooo cute when he gets all riled up and thangs! (It's ok Big Daddy Thumper baybe, YEW knooow!) Watch out yall, he bout to come leapin out the cut a gin.
Aside to Thumper: (im bouncin? why don't you try dippin?) |
Eviana
Veteran Poster
Username: Eviana
Post Number: 55
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, May 12, 2004 - 11:47 pm: |
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Thumper,
Take your time and read the posts before you respond. Okay, let me spell it out to you.
I wrote: It seem that I repeat myself, because my list is not as long as yours....If I had chosen a profession where books were given to me on a daily basis for my opinion of it, then I'm sure that it wouldn't seem as if I'm repeating myself because I would have plenty to make these statements about as well.
And you wrote: And truth be told, I hope to say it plenty more times in the near future. See, but the difference between me and you is that I've said that statement concerning a number of books, and not just ONE like you have.
Don't ask Cynique to help me, because you can't see the similarities in our statements, ask her to help you because you missed it. And with this statement you did agree with me because I admitted to the fact that you have and will read a lot more books than I have and will make recommendations much more than me because of it. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 419
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, May 13, 2004 - 11:29 am: |
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I aint in it, y'all. LOL. |
Sese
Newbie Poster
Username: Sese
Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 04:08 pm: |
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Emanuel: Congrats on making the cut for The Other Half, I did not. Nor did I make the cut for the horror anthology that Cynique inquired about. Couldn't find her post |
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