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Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 82
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:14 pm: | 
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Hello All,
The following commentary was written by one of AALBC.com's reviewers, Tiffany Davis. It is published in the current issue of BackList: A Publishing and Literary Newletter of African American Interest. Although I disagree with several of her points (which I'll save for a following post) it is a wonderfully written article. Check it out.
AN OPEN LETTER TO WRITERS OF URBAN LITERATURE
By Tiffany M. Davis
Dear Authors:
Congratulations on your publishing successes! I know that it was a long and winding road. Whether you self-published or were signed to a deal with a publishing house, you did it. You ignored the naysayers and worked hard to get to where you are. Your work is in print and that is not something to be taken lightly.
That being said, I am concerned with the quality of the work that you are producing. Editing and grammatical issues notwithstanding, there is the gratuitous use of sex, violence, explicit language and glorification of the pimp/ho/gangster lifestyle. In short, rap videos translated into print.
An article in the March 2 issue of the Boston Globe by Vanessa Jones highlighted the underground successes of such novels, which were classified as “urban novels” or “hip-hop lit.” Notables cited were Teri Woods, Nikki Turner and Carl Weber. The article went on to proclaim that the aforementioned were the first in a long line of heirs to the thrones of Donald Goines and Iceberg Slim, with the added bloodline of Madame C.J. Walker and her entrepreneurial spirit. Even consumers were interviewed for sound bites, their appetites allegedly being the driving force that is encouraging bookstores to stock such works. One author was quoted as saying that customers requested books that had “drama in it, a book with regular people.”
What is “regular”? Granted, if you grew up on the mean streets in which most of these books are set, then that is your reality. Unfortunately this remains the daily truth of the majority of our people. Yet there are still those that have never seen a housing project except in passing or on television. One only has to read W.E.B. DuBois, Lawrence Otis Graham or Karen Grigsby Bates to realize this. Keeping this in mind, is the conventional a reason to make sure that this bleak existence remains constant? Is “keeping it real” that important to us as a people that we are willing to forsake growth? Is it that crucial that we as writers choose to abdicate responsibility for the sake of getting paid? As authors we are charged with the burden of putting out best-selling work that is also of good quality. Sometimes the two attributes are exclusive of each other. While we primarily provide entertainment, we are also charged with teaching. In the end, what is the legacy you would wish for your children and children’s children to embrace? What definition of success do you wish to impart?
Don't get it twisted: the beauty of America is that we all have choices. Bookstores provide a plethora of genres and subjects to satisfy your every desire and need. A literary agent once said that every book is not meant to uplift the race, and he was correct. But look where the refusal of being our brother’s keeper has gotten us. The hard work that our ancestors went through to prove that we were more than mentally deficient mammies, slaves, thieves and gangbangers seemingly has been for naught. The deification of tangible goods has replaced an emphasis on education and self-enrichment. Our race is at a point where we sorely need to be uplifted because we have willingly lain in the dust for a dollar. Our children can barely read, yet are able to recite an entire album’s worth of rap lyrics. And now these same children will be able to tell you how to build and maintain a stable of prostitutes, but won’t be able to name three people in the current presidential Cabinet (even though two are glaringly obvious).
For the sake of good Negro images, I’m imploring you, as a writer and as a consumer, to use your powers for good. Please do not contribute to the further dumbing down of our culture. Words are potent; they can wound as easily as heal. The urban genre validates the unlawful ways of life of which you write and enforces racial stereotypes. Everyone doesn’t understand that persons within a race come in all types, and the media demonstrate a clear example of how a single image can be replicated and endorsed in perpetuity. While equally deplorable subject matter exists in the mainstream, we as a people can’t afford the hits taken due to hip-hop in its current form, whether literary or musical. Write because you believe in your work, not because it’s the fastest track to the Essence Bestseller List. Write because you want your heritage to be something that you can look back upon with pride. Write because you need to write, not just because you can. Perhaps some authors do not wish to be role models. However, we are whether we like it or not. The images we put forth will be internalized by our readership for good or ill. That’s not wishful thinking, that’s reality.
Respectfully yours in the written word,
Tiffany M. Davis
Tiffany M. Davis writes for QBR: The Black Book Review and AALBC.com, and has written for Gospel Voice and National Hotel Executive magazines. She contributed to the anthology Malaria Shots Not Included. She lives in San Francisco, CA.
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Bookgirl
Veteran Poster
Username: Bookgirl
Post Number: 62
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 06:44 pm: |
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Tiffany; I agree! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 226
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 09:19 pm: |
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A very eloquent plea, Tiffany, but - I fear it might fall on deaf ears. We are witnessing a cultural evolution in the black community, and the change that time is bringing about involves a whole different set of priorities and values. Unfortunately, I don't think reform is on the horizon. Those of us who think like you will just have to be satisfied with knowing that we are members of the literary aristocracy, and that we are special because we recognize and respect excellence. |
Soulofaauthor
Regular Poster
Username: Soulofaauthor
Post Number: 27
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 10:11 pm: |
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Hey Cynique good book so far I am enjoying it.I have to throw this out here.Ok now I love to read I enjoy the classic's the old school norton books or a good old so call you go girl book.Now when we start telling people what to write I guess 1984 is going to come true and big brother will be watching us.I am all for freedom of the press and if its a book I find offense I simply don't buy it.I can say one thing these urban books have caught on and people are reading that we never say reading before.I was in a book store about a month ago and I was looking for a book to read this young man handed me this book and told me he heard it was a good he just wanted to see if they had it cause he was going to save his money and get it later.I read the back of it I didnt want it but I brought it and gave it to him I would never have thought he would be interested in reading so I learned from that never judge a book by its cover as my aunt use to tell me.Any way if these books are getting these kids to read I say at least they in the house reading not out their robbing,stealing,and killing. |
Emanuel
Newbie Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 11:11 pm: |
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The author makes some good points in this essay. However, she forgets to mention the other side of the story-the demand side. Surely if there wasn’t a demand for these types of books (which some people can relate to and others use a mere escape), the books would surely die along with the careers of the authors who write them. Shouldn’t she address the audience’s demand as well?
In a capitalistic society (such as ours), material wealth rules. It is evident in politics, entertainment, and especially marketing. ‘If you drive this car, you’ll get the job.’ ‘If you wear these sneakers, you’ll get the girl.’ If writing trashy novels is the means to money and fame, best believe people will go after it with gusto, regardless of moral issues.
Speaking of ethics, just whose ethics are we referring to here? The author seems to assume that everyone subscribes to her seemingly Judeo/Christian ethics, when in fact a majority of folks are only giving lip service and faking it-listening to N.W.A. on the way to church, beating their kids one day, smiling in the preacher’s face the next. Truth is: it’s not an author’s job to raise society’s children or shelter them from certain people’s brand of ethics. It’s the parents’ job.
The argument about having to know the life to write about it is completely bogus. The best fiction writers are the creative ones who would have you believe they know the life. It’s much more difficult than writing a true story, which makes it a skill. Although it does help to write about what you know, it is not a requirement.
The ethical problems she mentions are not a race issue but a society issue. Name one moral problem blacks face that others don’t. The glorification of violence? See the Sopranos. Sex without marriage? How about Sex and the City? And as a book reviewer, I’ve seen poorly written work filled with grammatical and spelling errors from authors of all races. It’s not a black thing. It’s an ignorance thing.
-Emanuel Carpenter
www.geocities.com/emanuelcarpenter |
Abm
Regular Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 10:19 am: |
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You all have made some most worthy responses to Tiffany’s article. There is one point that must be clearly/emphatically emphasized: We DON’T read books!
Although a lot of lipservice is given to the virtues of learning, school, etc., few of us actually partake of book reading. We are so ‘illiterate’ that it has been said the average American reads less than ONE book/year (THAT, in spite of growing up in a society who’s very laws require we receive some formal academic instruction for 12 or our 1st 18 years). Sure, there are a few us around ‘here’ who voraciously consume books. But by-n-large, real, in-depth book reading is NOT a part of the American ethos.
Not only don’t we read, moreover, there is a prominent anti-intellectual strain that has festered throughout American culture (See the current American President for an example.). Ignorance is so egregiously encouraged, that if one tries to delved more deeply into issues - especially where the possessions/privileges of the ruling classes can be perceived to be at risk - one is quickly made subject to suspicion, innuendoes, threats and worse. Show me one truly freethinking American, and I will show you a pariah.
So, if we are not READING books, WHO will demand literary and moral accountability from those who WRITE them, especially when, as Emanuel eloquently described, we live in a society where, above all else, "...material wealth rules"?
PS: On a related point, below is an interesting article in the NYT on the subject of how Finland fosters reading/learning among its citizenry.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/09/international/europe/09finl.html?8hpib
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Brian_egeston
Newbie Poster
Username: Brian_egeston
Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 10:59 am: |
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I know Tiffany. She's a good friend, but the truth is people like what they like and it's hard to change that. The perfect example is a Tyler Perry play vs. an August Wilson play. Tyler gets a certain demographic and August gets anohter. If you took Tyler's audience to see an August Wilson play, they'd proabably say, 'That was good'. However, they might not rave about Wilson's play and buy the DVD.
Also, I've come to learn that when somone reads ghetto pulp and they love it and want more, for us to tell them what they're reading is low quality, can be insulting to that particular reader.
Everyone has opinions and different tastes. It's a beautiful thing to watch them clash until it becomes offensive. Heck, I'd rather shop at Wal-Mart than Macy's anyday. And in my mind, a $2 cigar is better than a $15 cigar anyday. But I prefer literature over pulp. Articles like Tiffany's are great. What do we take from it? And cynique said it best. Deaf ears.
Thump,
Holla at cha boy |
Abm
Regular Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 34
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:16 am: |
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It has been said that President Theodore Roosevelt read an astounding FIVE HUNDRED books per year. Our current president brags that he doesn’t even read the newpapers (comedian Bill Mauler did a insightful/hilarious re-occurring bit on this on his HBO show last season). And there is a CENTURY between Teddy’s and W’s Presidencies.
Is there REALLY any wonder about WHERE we are going and HOW & WHY we are getting there? |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 113
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:30 am: |
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Tiffany:
I disagree. What will result is that they will read nothing. Why would you hold black authors and readers to standards white authors are not being held to?
And before you go into that we have to be twice as good and be better, that would be all well and good if black folks were superhuman, but black folks are just human.
Do white folks only read Shakespeare? Do they only attend the symphony?
We may as well face a fact, the black intellectual and upper class is no longer attached to the black working and lower class. We attempt to dictate to them, ask them to read DuBois and Cornel West and Toni Morrison, without giving them any reason why or any alternative thing to read other than to say "Don't read this. Or don't write that."
When I was a kid, I read comic books, pulp novels, James Bond, all those Mandingo books. I was not a dummy. I was in gifted class. When I got out of class I didn't want to read anything that was like what I was reading in class.
Yes, I should have been reading Souls of Black Folk, but I didn't even know about them. Because I did read trash, one day I looked up and said, "This is trash. Wonder what else is out there to read. From there I proceeded to the good stuff.
The good stuff is lots of times work to read. It is not exciting. It is not escape.
The average person in this country lives a life of unremitting drudgery and boredom. They go to literature for escape.
Would you have them read nothing--or read something in the hope that one day they will progress? |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:43 am: |
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Cynique you are absolutely right this will fall on deaf ears. The reason is absolutely because of Emanuel's point. Robert Johnson became a billionaire by promoting rap videos with shaking rumps and gun toting gangsters.
Now ABM may be pinting to a potential solution regarding education, but I don't see this being fixed, in the public sector.
So if their is no fix on the horizon toward improving literacy and people WANT to read the poorly written, "Hip-Hop" Lit, then there will also be someone to write it for the sole purpose of making money.
If more people recognized that there was more money to be made in a literate society versus an illiterate one and everyone would be better off ecconmically,l then an article like Tiffany's would be unnecessary.
Until that time AALBC.com will continue to make more money selling Bad Girlz by Shannon Holmes than The Ecstatic by Victor LaValle.
As an aside, ABM, don't over look the advantage Findland has: a "small, homogenous population". This is a significant.
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Abm
Regular Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:57 pm: |
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Chris, you make some evocative points as you describe the trajectory of your literary and educational evolution.
When I were a kid, My bestfriend was(is) a rabid comic book collector and mythology nut. And his liberal (and oh-so-FOINE) aunt would doll out to us girlie magazines that she lifted from an adult book distributor she worked for. So, my initial primary literary influences are not Thurston and Baldwin. Rather, they are Stan Lee (Marvel Comics), Greek/Roman/Norse Myths and Oui Magazine articles/commentary. These surely explains the eclectic mix of hyperbole, grandiosity and prurience that often permeate my writing (& social) style, tastes and character.
I agree with you that some (maybe most) of us must evolve from some degree of silliness/fluffery to get to the point of reading more vigorous and challenging literary fare.
Troy, point taken and concurred. We ain’t Finland. But, it’s like anything else you read: You take some of what you can use and you cast the other stuff aside.
For instance, I do think if we broaden the teaching methodology some, which is what Finland allows, we could in some instances garner better results. I mean, really, should Black boys in the inner city be taught under essentially the same pedagogical structure as that of White girls in suburbia?
And I also think if (ala Finland) being a teacher was even remotely as prized as being Labron James or Beyonce, average SAT scores in ‘da hood’ would soar by +50% inside of 10 years.
Tiffany, I don’t mean to take this discussion too far afield from your primary thesis, which is indeed worthy of debate/consideration. I just don’t think we can have a productive discussion about the responsibilities of the writer without concurrently considering the duties of the reader.
The ocean becomes the atmosphere...that makes the ocean.
An aside: Troy. If you are going to "Bronze" a guy’s "Member", the least you could do is provide a cleanser to help remove some of the residue. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 162
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 06:02 pm: |
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...i don't know, and perhaps i'm misreading the post, but it seems like TMD is placing too much responsibility on the genre.
On the one hand, she says:"A literary agent once said that every book is not meant to uplift the race, and he was correct." and then on the other hand she says, "But look where the refusal of being our brother’s keeper has gotten us. The hard work that our ancestors went through to prove that we were more than mentally deficient mammies, slaves, thieves and gangbangers seemingly has been for naught," and finally, "Please do not contribute to the further dumbing down of our culture. Words are potent; they can wound as easily as heal. The urban genre validates the unlawful ways of life of which you write and enforces racial stereotypes. Everyone doesn’t understand that persons within a race come in all types, and the media demonstrate a clear example of how a single image can be replicated and endorsed in perpetuity. While equally deplorable subject matter exists in the mainstream, we as a people can’t afford the hits taken due to hip-hop in its current form, whether literary or musical. Write because you believe in your work, not because it’s the fastest track to the Essence Bestseller List."
Now, I do think socalled "good" images are instrumental to aided our goals, but I really don't think writing feel good literature is gonna do it. And as other said, folk gotta read what they want. Illiteracy, crime, etc...have to do with economics, access to education, etcc...the images, on the other hand have to do with the demand, consumerism, and writers making a lil money and publishers making alot of money...so it seems that parents and educators, etc... need to do their part...and finally, one more point:
All societies, groups, cultures, etc... have poor folk, uneducated folk, etc....as well as poor, educated folk, as wells affluent uneducated...etc...stop trying to make everyone "club women" and "exemplary men." As someone said in the E.Jones thread, stop caring what white folk think...(i know i can't talk...lmao!)
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Mspride
First Time Poster
Username: Mspride
Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:56 pm: |
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Hello,
My name is Felicia and I am the editor of BackList (www.abacklist.com), the newsletter that featured Tiffany's commentary. Personally, I have mixed emotions on the street lit genre. I agree with alot of the points made about it--the entertainment factor, the demand dynamic, etc, but I also can feel Tiffany's frustration.
This is a classic art vs. commerce debate that no form of art seems able to avoid.
I hope that the article doesn't completely fall on deaf ears because it is a valid concern. When publishing it, I wanted to spark discussion, debate and thought, and already I can see that happening. For that alone, I am pleased. |
Tiffanydavis
First Time Poster
Username: Tiffanydavis
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 03:21 pm: |
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Response to AALBC.com discussion board (Part one)
I will be posting my response to all of the viewpoints listed, in multiple parts.
***********************************************
Thank you all for the insightful dialogue that you have elicited due to my open letter, that appeared in the April 2004 issue of Backlist.
If wanting to experience well-written literature that encourages me to think, that causes debate, that is not like anything that is currently on the market (even if it¡¦s a similar story that has been tweaked to where it is refreshingly different)¡Kthen I am a card-carrying member literary snob. Like that¡¦s a bad thing. ƒº What I am objecting to is not only the content of such books, but also the formulaic creations of such. Like stamping out widgets.
Recipe for urban genre:
Take 1 pimp/ho/gangsta/¡¨good girl/guy gone bad¡¨ character. Place in drama-filled environment, preferably centered in government housing or run-down neighborhoods. Add 2-3 like-minded friends that provide encouragement. Fold in 1 good guy/girl who falls for game that central character is running. Simmer in heated vengeful plot against central character when game is revealed for a few chapters. Remove and let main character sit in the throes of love for good guy/girl, who now hates central character. Serve on self-published platform or urban-targeted imprint of large publishing house. Optional garnishes: shootout scenes, drugs, imprisonment.
Cynique: ¡§An eloquent plea, but ¡V I fear it might fall on deaf ears.¡¨ : I agree completely and knew that when I wrote the open letter. But if it at least gets folks to talking about this issue some more, then that¡¦s good. The fostering and exchange of ideas is never a negative thing. But, like Jesse Jackson, I keep hope alive¡Kƒº
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Tiffanydavis
Newbie Poster
Username: Tiffanydavis
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 03:22 pm: |
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Response to AALBC.com board (part two)
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Soulofaauthor: The kids are in the house reading instead of other illegal activities¡Kfor now. My concern is that reading some books within the hip-hop fiction genre would lend credence to their desire to get more ends and live Big Willie style. When looking at NBA players, how many kids want to play professional hoops (as evidenced by the exodus from college into the pros)? How many kids say they want to be Tiger Woods? Those numbers are a lot higher than those who want to be doctors, lawyers, teachers, welders, etc. Life imitates art imitates life. The cycle has to stop somewhere.
Emanuel: Emanuel, Emanuel¡Kƒº
--my ¡§seemingly Judeo-Christian ethics¡K¡¨ : not that I ever mentioned my religious preference, but I suppose it is safe for you to assume that it is Judeo-Christian since I am black and the predominate black church is based upon these tenets. Are you implying that Muslims, or perhaps Jews, would have a different set of ethics? Perhaps they would prefer to read hip-hop fiction without finding fault in it? Also, the issues I raised are indeed societal issues, issues which the black society internalizes as a microcosm of said society.
--¡§it¡¦s not an author¡¦s job to raise society¡¦s children or shelter them from certain people¡¦s brand of ethics. It¡¦s the parents¡¦ job.¡¨ : You are absolutely correct. But when are parents around to shelter their children, when there is a significant number of single-parent homes in America, a trend which is glaringly conspicuous within the black community? Not to mention the current unemployment rate. There are parents who don¡¦t let their external circumstances curtail their involvement in their children¡¦s lives, and they are to be commended. But these parents are, unfortunately, a relative few. The others are too busy working to keep their children covered in basics and ensuring survival to be concerned with trivial matters such as what their children are reading, watching or TV, or who these kids are associating with in and out of school.
--¡§It¡¦s not a black thing. It¡¦s an ignorance thing.¡¨ : Again, you are correct. And if you were to revisit my article you would see that in the last paragraph I clearly stated: ¡§While equally deplorable subject matter exists in the mainstream, we as a people can¡¦t afford the hits taken due to hip-hop in its current form, whether literary or musical.¡¨ Thus, I did not state that poor editing and grammar usage are indigenous to black literature. However, being that BackList is concerned with black literature as is AALBC.com, that is what I am focusing on as well. What black people are reading those poorly edited books by writers of other races? Can you give me examples of such works (titles, authors)? The ones I¡¦ve read, whether the storylines grabbed me or not, all had one thing in common: they were edited out the wazoo. That¡¦s not to say that things don¡¦t get missed because the editors are human. There is just less error.
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Tiffanydavis
Newbie Poster
Username: Tiffanydavis
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 03:23 pm: |
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Response to AALBC.com board (part three)
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ABM re: ignorance in society and importance of the teaching profession. ¡¥Nuff said. ƒº And you have a point: what is the duty of the reader besides demanding something to read? Is there a duty other than that?
Chrishayden: ¡§What will result is that they read nothing.¡¨: So it¡¦s better to read anything?
¡§Why do you hold black authors and readers to standards white authors are not being held to?¡¨: Who¡¦s to say that white reader¡¦s aren¡¦t being held to high levels? This is not necessarily an issue of race, as Emanuel had stated earlier. This is a societal issue.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1119/p01s03-ussc.html
http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,6109,1090616,00.html
¡§Yes, I should have been reading Souls of Black Folk, but I didn¡¦t even know about them.¡¨ : Precisely. Had you known but had decided not to read it, at least you would have known of the option you had turned down.
¡§This is trash. Wonder what else is out there to read. From there I proceeded to the good stuff.¡¨ : So you admit that there is ¡§trash¡¨ literature? ƒº Also, everyone does not have your discernment and interest in raising a personal bar of excellence.
¡§The average person in this country¡Kgo[es] to literature for escape. Would you have them read nothing¡Xor read something in the hope that they will one day progress?¡¨ : Why should they progress when there is no incentive to do so? Much like there is no incentive for immigrants to learn English when signage, literature, etc is produced in their native language (but that¡¦s another discussion for another day).
Troy: you hit the nail on the head. ļ
Brian: Good points. Thx for the love. ļ
Yukio: ¡§TMD is placing too much responsibility on the genre.¡¨ : Perhaps. But dogs go to where they are fed (I¡¦m not calling readers dogs, but rather paraphrasing an African proverb). In this same vein, are readers blind sheep who will accept what is doled out? Or are we beings capable of determining what best suits our needs, moods, etc. (See ABM¡¦s comments in a previous post. Does this go back to the responsibility of the reader?)?
¡§¡¨¡Kstop trying to make everyone ¡§club women¡¨ and ¡§exemplary men.¡¨ : Why? What¡¦s wrong with being exemplary? These are the role models to whom our children should be looking up instead of someone who can spit 48 bars of profanity-laced couplets over a diwali beat, or can bounce/hit/throw a ball. Reminds me of how, if our kids choose to speak proper grammar, they are accused of ¡§talking white.¡¨
You also posted on 3/14 that people are snobs if they try to ¡§force one standard of socalled ¡¥literary¡¦ quality on literature.¡¨ My letter was not trying to force anyone to do anything. I was merely pointing out the potential effects of the genre on our already messed-up communities.
Thumper, you know I want to see what you have to say. ļ
Again, thank you all for the dialogue. It¡¦s been enlightening!
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Abm
Veteran Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 52
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 03:44 pm: |
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Mspride (or Felicia),
I understand your and Tiffany’s concerns. And appreciate your efforts to address the issue.
But it is useless to castigate any subgenre of literature without considering the consumer. Studies suggest, most American people have the capacity to read comfortably only at the eight-grade level (grade-level for which most daily newspapers are written). How challenging/provocative can the subject matter of a book be that’s written at the level of a 13 year old?
And most of the major publishing houses are own/controlled by entities that view literature first/foremost as profit centers, not as one of the bastions of culture that we imagine they should be.
For example, Simon & Schuster is owned by Viacom. You think Viacom REALLY gives a rats-fat-a$$ about the quality/morality of the writing S&S publishes? If so, then why would Viacom also own the tasteless/prurient MTV and BET? No, Viacom will compel S&S to turn a profit. And if turning a profit means S&S must doll out the redundant works of fake-wannabe ‘Donald Goines’, then you can bet your behind that’s what S&S are going to do.
Until we raise the capacity and consciousness of the reader, there will always be plenty greedy authors and publisher who will pander to our literary shortcomings. |
Mspride
Newbie Poster
Username: Mspride
Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 05:03 pm: |
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Hey Abm,
You raised some interesting points. Unfortunately, I am not sure what concerns of mine you say you understand since I didn't specify any in my first post. I published Tiffany's piece and believe it is a worthy concern, but I didn't write it. And unfortunately, I haven't made up my mind on the genre, and probably won't. My feelings remain mixed, and I can't say how I truly feel about the genre.
What I do know is that the issue is not at all self-contained. You are right. You can't blame a genre (for obvious reasons), or theoretically blame one group. The production, marketing and consumption of literature involves so many folks not just writers but readers, editors, agents, publishers, vps of marketing, media, etc. Publishing is a business and I'm not foolish to think that the bottom line isn't its first priority. Like I said, art vs. commerce is a dizzying matchup.
But, I also know what I prefer to read (high-quality stuff, despite genre), but is that how everything should be written? Of course not. Different types of writing serve different types of purposes and audiences.
Can I knock the hustle of those street lit writers that have carved opportunity? Nope.
Do writers have a choice about what they want to write? Yes.
Do writers have a responsibility to an audience? I don't know and consequently, this is a question that writers have struggled with forever.
Do I wish for more of a balance, like Troy said, where a literary title sells as much as a street title or a sci-fi title sells, period? Certainly. That is probably my major concern--balance.
So what do I do in the meantime as the momentum shifts (and I think it will)?
I publish BackList. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 169
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 06:21 pm: |
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Mspride:
While your intensions are not to enforce a bourgeois human, ie...respectable, exemplary, etc..., the essence of your letters, as well as recent comments, is that black writers should produce acceptably moral literature to produce acceptably moral black folk.
I made two interdependent points:
1. Too much responsibility on the genre-Now, there are too many variables that are responsible for criminality, drugs, and promiscuity among black youth(as you've sorta of delineated), but I don't think hip hop fiction is the most essential. It is not even among the top ten.
2.Everyone, as ABM has illustrated, will not read toni morrison or Gayl Jones(whose characters, by the way, are not respectable. Indeed, though I could be mistaken, you comments say little about talent and craft, etc...literary fic and non-fic, as you know, require much more than well written literature that causes one to think and encourages debate, etc...). Yesterday afternoon, I believe, on C-Span, Toni Morrison suggested that there is enough literary fiction available. Perhaps, you beg to differ. Of course, it is more difficult for talented socalled literary writers to get their literature published, but that is another story. One, I don't know enough about to comment. Nevertheless, the point is that there is a diversity of readers and writers, as you've even stated, so if we have enough of literature to go around, then parents need to step up, educators, etc...so what their not home...it is their responsibility. I would assume that if parents and educators cultivated an interest in literature in our children then they would have the resources to pick different literature...read hip hop lit. the way some women read u-go-girl lit. and still have successful relationships among folk... |
Tiffanydavis
Newbie Poster
Username: Tiffanydavis
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 06:37 pm: |
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Hi Yukio,
I posted those comments, not MsPride. 
T. |
Tiffanydavis
Newbie Poster
Username: Tiffanydavis
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:00 pm: |
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And to respond to your comments, Yukio, as you did to mine:
1) "I don't think that hip hop fiction is the most essential. It is not even in the top ten." : I never said it was. But it can be argued that the current state of hip hop in all of its media manifestations can be a contributor to such.
2) I say little about talent and craft because that's yet another discussion. If one's character uses poor grammar, then is there a need for the correction of such grammar if it is a part of the character? This argument has been made when black literature first began to explode upon the mainstream literary scene. But to address the issue as you seemingly wish for me to do: I do not argue that some of the urban genre authors are talented. But there are those that have to resort to mimicry because they don't have the talent. That situation exists in all walks of life, not just literature. And as for craft...craft involves polishing and repolishing your work, not just in order to make it more palatable to the reader but also as a badge of personal pride in one's work; constantly learning and updating skills in order to grow as a writer; accepting constructive criticism in order to address structural flaws (not just audience likes/dislikes). Some of these books do not demonstrate an adherence to the craft. But again, that's a whole 'nother thread.
3)You've reiterated once again that parents and educators should step up. I agree. But what if they don't? Are children to be left to flounder because those that are not their parents or educators are not doing their jobs? And what does reading material choice have to do with successful relationships among "folk"?
Thank you for your comments.
T. |
Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 23
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:06 pm: |
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Just scanning over the dialogue and what I find interesting is that movies, television shows and videos that have the same images, language, characters, etc., as these books are regarded as not good yet just because the same is written in a book, then it's all good. Mainly because of the ususal retort ... at least people are reading.
Johnson and BET caught much hell for years (and continue do to so), from black people, no less, and now we haven't from these same people against the writers or the publishers of these books.
Why is "thug life" given a pass when it's written in a book but not when it's on the screen or on a CD?
Why are some producers and-or distributors (of these images) held to certain standards while others are not?
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Tiffanydavis
Newbie Poster
Username: Tiffanydavis
Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:08 pm: |
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Also, Yukio, you seem to take issue with "moral acceptability." Why is that?
T. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 08:23 pm: |
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Hi Tiffanydavis:
Sorry for misaddressing my response.
1.The nature of my response to your letter is that this socalled hip hop lit. has less to do with the state of black youth and more to do with the assumption that if black youth were more "moral" or if our culture was more "respectable" then things would be different. Part of my point was that all cultures have a underside and the all cultural groups have common or mass literature. I think your letter, to some degrees, could be interpreted as a trade off from activism against issues that are constitutive of the econonomic, religious, social, cultural, and political realm to one in which everything is boiled down to either one's behaviors and/or what they consume. The latter, in other words, only focues on individual, rather than the complicated relationship between society and people.
I'll respond briefly to #2, for you state that it deserves another thread. But I mentioned craft since there is value to socalled bad situations and conditions when it is well crafted. Consequently, there is it valorized and therefore useful.
3.Parents and educators do not take responsibility then the educators need to be fired and unless being a delinquent parent is a crime, then less hope we can have a cadres of anton fishers...
Well, perhaps, I misunderstood your post. I thought I read interpreted your letter as a challenge to writers to write better and more respectable fiction in order to "uplift" the race. Now, my assumption is that IF children, youth, etc... are taught the value of socalled "quality" literature, then they can read the bad literature and still be good, respectable, representative black folk and these good people can have amicable relationships with one another.
In other words, if you are criticizing the literature for its contribution to immorality, allegedly like the kids in the videos-chauvanistic, misognyist, etc..., then writing better fiction could contribute to anti-chauvanist and anti-misognyistic relations among young folk.
If this is a correct reading of your letter, then my point is that you are ultimately trying to mold young folks behavior, via criticizing the artist, which is then identified as the cause, or primarily contributive, of forsaking "growth." In other words, this is my basic blaming the victim position, though I really wouldn't wanna go too far...
All of my comments should have addressed the "take issue with 'moral acceptability.'" If not, here is an answer: I don't take issue with it, unless it masks the clarity of the issues, which is why I stated that you placed too much responsibility...not that there was none.
As I read your letter, I interpret it as a gesture to improve the image of black americans in front of others and for themselves. Yet, I really believe, though i've stated on the contrary to some degree on the epj thread, that black folk need not worry about what white folk think, since there are too many available representations of black folk that demonstrate that we are good people. Futhermore, as I've suggested, a la Toni Morrison, if we are going to really be great think we have to take for granted the humanity of african americans. This means, as Thumper has written in the epj thread, that we have to accept the good, bad, and the ugly, which we like all humans and cultural groups exemplify.
In addition, as I've stated or perhaps suggested, I think focusing on "moral acceptability" sounds more like bourgeois bravado...either we are talking about literacy, education, economics...these are responsible for crime, etc...midddle class kids do as much dirt as the socalled ghetto kids you seem to equate hip hop with, but the differences are their families can bail them out of jail, raise their kids, etc...with them becoming dependent on the state....
Also, though you seem to try and "uplift" the race...you create fissures. The nature of your comments suggest that you quate the mean streets and "projects" with crime, delinquency, etc...and that there are other folks who are not from the projects; the ones who want to read respectable literature....so that the writers you critique need to produce literature for the refined folk... this mispresents folk in the mean streets and projects..what about those that work, raise their kids, and go school and church...that is probably the majority...and what of the delinquent middle0class kids and their parents that can misbehavior within the country clubs or financially circumvent much of what the poor person could not...
Tiffanydavis, there is much too much that i can say about your letter that is problematic...To be fair, I haven't read any of the socalled hip hop fiction, but i don't think fiction has that power...I do think writers have a responsibility, but it is initially to themselves. Those who do take responsibility should do so on their own accord, though I think it is just as important that you and others write letters, for these money hungry socalled writers need to know that they are producing crap...
Thanks for your reply...and I look forward to reading your fiction. If I get a publisher, I will hope your review is as honest as your letter.
P.S.
To all of my old friends, I'm sorry for the dissertation; it will not happen again...lmao! |
Abm
Veteran Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 55
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 12:01 pm: |
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Mspride,
Pardon me for mistakenly attributing Tiffany’s commentary to you. I suppose I confused your initial defense of her to signal agreement with what she asserted.
But as I said before, I don’t think I am disagreeing with her (or you). Rather, I sought to broaden the discussion some to include the role of the reader in what Tiffany apparently decries. Simply, there must be sufficient numbers of readers who are capable/willing to read the "high-quality" of literature that you desire. Otherwise, the noble literary champion that Tiffany seeks to be might find she has no kingdom to defend.
All writers are (to some extent/quality) readers.
So if literary quality has diminished it is because those who are writing are themselves the product of and influenced by deficient reading, both within themselves as well from all of those around them. This, of course, is largely the product of disaffected parenting, educational and social systems. And, sadly, I don’t expect strangers, no matter their intentions, to atone for the failures of parents/teachers/communities.
Do writers bear some responsibility to readers? I suppose so. Though, I also feels readers bear mutual responsibility to writers. There is an ecological relationship between writer-reader: They feed/nourish each other.
Please consider the reason why I contrasted Roosevelt and Bush in my prior post. There was a time when our leadership, Black and White - though flawed and even evil they often were - were culled from among the highest intellectual character. But surely isn’t the case now. Really, can you even imagine Thomas Jefferson and George Bush having a conversation? Well, in 200 years, we gone from a man who wrote the Constitution, to one who very likely haven’t even read it.
Doomsday ditty: There is a pernicious aura of ignorance that threatens to kill then consume us all.
But to more directly address Tiffany’s essay.
There was a time when I too bemoaned the dearth of "high-quality" writing. But I realized to continue to do such is to engage in a boring, wasteful errand. Because as long this society is as Emanuel aptly describes one where "...material wealth rules" there will always be legions of literary opportunists.
And a hustler is a hustler, no matter how they ply their trade. Those who write are not made any more ennobled by a pen then a pool hustler is by a cue ball.
The only indemnity from being snookered by literary scam artists is for the reading populace to garner the wherewithal to know a canard when they see one. Because a card shark can’t scam other gamblers who know the deck has been fixed.
And Tiffany, the reader can not "demand" that which she does not even ‘know’ she needs. |
Pierced
Newbie Poster
Username: Pierced
Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 09:50 pm: |
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While I agree with Tiffany about the quality of urban literature, I feel that the fact that more black people are reading is even more important!
I love historical, intellectual, classical, inspirational literature - I love it all!! I just love to read! But at the same time, I enjoy an urban (baby's mama drama) story, every now and then too.
Book clubs are springing up throughout our communities. And don't get me wrong - I'm not saying black people only started reading with the publication of Terry McMillan's first book or the formation of Oprah's Book Club.
However, a lot more of us are reading just because there are so many more black authors and related subject matter available.
I'm an optimist and just as it has taken so long for us to get to this point in literacy history, I believe that eventually people will "raise the bar" for themselves and take it to the next level. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 101
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 04:07 pm: |
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Hello All,
I too understand Tiffany's frustration, and as many of you already know, have said as much myself. I don't have a problem with the subject matter of the genre of books now being called "urban" (what a stupid title anyway like there are no black folks that live in the suburbs or down South in the country, but I'm stepping out of line, ain't I?). The main problem I have is that our literature should uplifting and used to inspire. Why should it do that? Not all stories should be inspirational. And because of the number of black women who felt the same way as Tiffany, we are now burden with the U go girl book genre, which is just like Herpes, the minute I think its dead and gone it pops up again with a bloom. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
We have all kinds of stories to tell and it would be beneficial to us, as a people, to encourage the telling of all our stories and not just the U go girl books, the hip hop books, or the I was a straight ho but now I found Jesus books. I'm afraid that if we don't embrace our whole stories, we will be cutting off our nose to spite our face. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 102
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 04:09 pm: |
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Hello All,
I forgot to add: To all the new writers, for Pete's sake, learn to freaking WRITE!! |
Njanene
Newbie Poster
Username: Njanene
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 05:32 pm: |
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I think there is a place for hip-hop fiction. At its base level, hip-hop fiction is pure entertainment. Readers who don't like it should just not read it, just as people who don't like violence on television should just change the channel. I recently wrote a column on hip-hop fiction which is posted on:
http://www.kisobooks.com/mall/listonline.htm
It is listed under Beyond the Books. I would be
interested in any feedback. Thanks in advance. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 103
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:04 pm: |
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Hello All,
Njanene: Hello, how are you doing? *smile* I know you are not responsible for my reaction to your article, which is fast coming...trust me. You're post was simply the straw that broke the camel's back. That said, I can safely say that I am just about tired of people telling folks what they shouldn't, couldn't, or would be better off not reading. Pick a new line and stick with that one, because the "readers who don't like it..." statement went out when Moses broke the Ten Commandment tablets.
Second, I can't speak for other people. *eyebrow raised* I do good speaking for myself, so, let's not get it twisted. I am not, NOT, against hip hop fiction. I am against writers who can't write; who don't know the ins and outs of putting together a simple story, never mind a novel; and is trying to fake the funk by proclaiming their books is all that. I notice in your article, you don't even mention the quality of the writing. Why is that? *eyebrow raised* That is what the protest is about, the quality of the writing, NOT the subject matter. And frankly, as you pointed out in your article, the subject matter that currently makes up hip hop fiction is not new. That being the case what is all the hoopla that you and other journalists are carrying on about? None of the hip hop books are covering any ground that Donald Goines, Iceberg Slim, or even Richard Wright and others did not write about. What is revolutionary about hip hop books? *eyebrow raised* Folks go on and on about this "new" audience that are now reading books that hadn't read a book, voluntarily before. Well, I hate to be the one to tell you all, but that's been happening for years and years and years before the words hip and hop was put together to represent anything.
So allow me to say to you, don't get mad at those of us who knows better. Don't get mad at those of us who can recognize a complete sentence. Don't get mad at us who expect to find in their books the subject and the verb of a sentence to agree. Don't get ticked at us because, albeit small, we expect our writers to know this stuff as well. |
Njanene
Newbie Poster
Username: Njanene
Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 11:33 pm: |
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Thumper,
Thank you for your insights. However, I think I understand perfectly what the "hip-hop fiction" explosion is all about--money and only money. If hip-hop fiction authors were still selling their books out of the backs of their automobiles, a couple here and a couple there, the recognition the books are receiving would be non-existent. Since the books sell well, they are receiving national attention, publishers are fighting over hip-hop fiction authors. When is the last time you've heard of a first-time author receiving a high six-figure book deal and a movie deal from a major media outlet?
Publishers could care less what is in the books, the bottom line is that they are making money, and a lot of it. That is the point of my commentary. I can understand the frustration of writers who can't fathom why books that seemingly make no sense are dominating the African-American literary scene right now. And based on my research, there is a new audience reading the books.
In addition, based on the agressive marketing of hip-hop fiction small press publishers and authors, the genre/subgenre has the potential to keep growing, regardless of grammar.
|
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 195
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 08:44 am: |
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it does seem like publishers care less about the content...i read a page a particular author and the writers was BONKERS, HORRIFIC, and SHAMEFUL...on a way, the work does harm to the black literary tradition, but at the same time, i think it is time that we not associate fiction about black subjects or written by black authors as necessarily part of our literary canon....in this sense, we can circumvent and integrate much of TD's argument, for much of this socalled hip hop fiction will not have to be part of our canon, just commerical fiction by african americans...also, if we consider the exchanges about the definition, character, and literary elements of socalled hip hop fiction, it is possible to produce said fiction that is inclusive of quality writing, intellectual depth, and cultural integrity.
In other words, how would it look it mos def wrote fiction or Common, rather than those folk writing now that are more reminscient of a ja rule...I am, by the by, trying to identify and argue that it is not the genre, but the writers, as Thumper has reminded us! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 293
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 03:52 pm: |
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If this issue is ever resolved, then will we be ready to pass judgment on authors who have good writing skills but bad story-telling ones? A boring book is not redeemed by correct grammar. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 09:44 pm: |
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Hello All,
Njanen: You wrote: "However, I think I understand perfectly what the "hip-hop fiction" explosion is all about--money and only money."
Now Njanen, you said that like that observation was brand new. We all know this. Most of these books are poorly or badly written. I don't see how anyone is benefitting from that except the writers and publishers that are churning them out.
Second, how do you know these books sell well? *eyebrow raised* You got any numbers or data to back this claim? I asked this before, but no one has come forward with an answer. I don't know if these books are selling well or not, and I dare say neither do you. For all I know, the publishing industry could be putting them out to start a new trend. I can say that I haven't seen too many of them cross my desk that are published by any of the big publishing houses. So is what you claim factual, or are you basing your obesrvations on perceptions?
Third, you wrote: "When is the last time you've heard of a first-time author receiving a high six-figure book deal and a movie deal from a major media outlet?"
When was the first time you HEARD of one? The six figure deal is not new to me. Different authors receive them for different reasons. And anyway, the only large major deal I have heard of for a first time novelist belongs to Stephen Carter for The Emperor of Ocean Park. I read that book and I would classify that one as a hip hop book. Would you? And besides that its the second or third book that clues me in on an author's staying power, which I'm guessing you are implying by the hip hop ficition is here to stay rhetoric you're putting down. The only book that I know of that had been turned into a film from this type of genre was Donald Goines' Never Die Alone. Film rights being bought up is again nothing new. What you haven't mentioned or perhaps don't know is that many sit on shelves in Hollywood and will never go into "development". So, what is exactly your point?
Finally, you wrote: "In addition, based on the agressive marketing of hip-hop fiction small press publishers and authors, the genre/subgenre has the potential to keep growing, regardless of grammar."
And that's what scary about the whole thing. Although I shouldn't be surprise, the way we, as a people, have come to accept the lowering of the bar. When and why should we accept MEDIOCRITY? And if you believe I should, you got me bent. Folks all around talking that same ol' crap about capturing a this "new audience", as if they should be given a gold star for reading a terribly written book. "Well at least they reading something". *rolling my eyes" Listen, let me tell you something, anything that is meant to last needs the sun and the rain. It can't grow with only one of these things, it needs both. If the writer can't write, and the reader can't read...what's the point? *eyebrow raised*
Cynique: Nicely put. And this issue will be resolved in time. All of these books that I've read seem to follow the same recipe. Where the creativity or inventiveness in that? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 202
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 10:11 pm: |
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cynique...personally, I don't think good grammar is characteristic of good writing skills (not to say that you're saying this btw); Good writing includes so many qualities, and many of our "good writers" not necessarily have them all. Of course, there are those who are good story tellers, but don't have much literary depth...some are stylists and others are "good writers" because of the themes...at the end of the day, of course, all good writers have good grammar, but they don't all possess these other characteristics... |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 203
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 10:12 pm: |
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hmmm...isn't my post a contradiction...lmao!? |
Jmho
Regular Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 26
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 03:22 am: |
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Yukio wrote:
Good writing includes so many qualities
Yukio, could you list a few of these qualities? (Especially since you don't include "good grammar." ) |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 205
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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jmho:
You must reread my posts. Actually, as I mentioned above, I do include good grammar. I contradicted myself, as I've mentioned. My first and last sentences are not consistent.
I don't think "good grammar" is enough because it is only the bourgeios formalization of a language. In other words, it is only a marker of class[in this sense access to an education]. When languages were formalized, they were done so by the socalled "educated," the upper and middle-class. Finally, good grammar and punctuation just means that you know when to use a comma and semicolon as well as how to ensure that your subj. and verbs and pronouns and nouns agree! This can be learned through studying a grammar book, but you must studying writing and improve your reading to produce good fiction and poetry...
Brief list: storytelling, stylists, literary depth(identification with a literary tradition..ie Ellison and his combining of African American blues idiom with European idioms), lyricist(Toni Morrison...Toni Cade Bambara), narrative construction, perspective consistency, experimentation, etc...Most good writers have a combination of a few of these...great writers may have most of these qualities...a genius my just have a few but the poignancy of the execution could be perfection... |
Njanene
Newbie Poster
Username: Njanene
Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 12:33 pm: |
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Thumper,
I know about the sales of hip-hop fiction titles because I run a bookstore and I deal with publishers and authors of several hip-hop fiction titles, that is how I can talk about sales. I have also interviewed and visited the offices of a hip-hop publisher.
Major hip-hop fiction deals:
Vickie Stringer: Imagine This coming out this summer
Shannon Holmes: Currently Bad Girlz is out. His next title is coming out in the fall
Joylynn Jossel: The Root of All Evil is being re-issued by St. Martins Press in June
Nikki Turner: Several projects upcoming
K'wan: Several projects upcoming
Carl Weber: Urban books has distribution deal with Weber's publisher.
And the list goes on.
I also suggest that you check out the following website:
http://www.triplecrownpublications.com
It has links to several articles about hip-hop fiction.
Literature to me is like art, everyone sees a title in a different way. So, while I respect your opinion, I must respectfully disagree with it.
|
Blkmalereading
Regular Poster
Username: Blkmalereading
Post Number: 41
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 08:23 pm: |
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Thumper wrote:
If the writer can't write, and the reader can't read...what's the point? *eyebrow raised*
GOD!! I'm turning this into bumper stickers..... |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 107
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 05:31 am: |
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Hello All,
Njanene: Sounds like a plan to me; we will agree to disagree. Ultimately, time will tell which one of us is right. |
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