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Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 70
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 08:12 pm: | 
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Hello All,
The Pulitzer Prizes were announce today and The Known World by Edward P. Jones was this year's winner in fiction. I'm feeling really good about this one. I so loved this book. Fortunately it was one of those, dare I say it, literature books that got through and found an audience. Congratulations to Edward Jones.
And this year history Pulitzer went to "A Nation Under Our Feet: Black Political Struggles in the Rural South from Slavery to the Great Migration" by Steven Hahn. I haven't read this one. Congrats to both winners.
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Yvette
Newbie Poster
Username: Yvette
Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 08:42 pm: |
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Hi Thumper,
Thanks for this bit of news. I knew that Mr. Jones was something special when I read his book last year. He certainly, in my opinion, deserves any and every award he gets for The Known World. In reference to the thread regarding AALBC being a site to gain knowledge about black literature, it reminds me of tying into a chat on another site designed for African American books where everyone hated this book except me. I kept trying to figure out whether we had read the same book. It just baffles me. Not that I expect everyone to like the same books I like, but no one in this chat had anything positive to say about this book. I guess that's why it won the Pulitzer. LOL
Anyway, you guys (Troy and Thumper and everyone who posts to this site) please continue to keep us in the know regarding ALL African American literature. I must say that I have filled up my to read list from suggestions on this board. I can't say that I've loved them all, but I've enjoyed most of them and don't regret reading any of them. |
Bookgirl
Veteran Poster
Username: Bookgirl
Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 10:27 pm: |
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I heard the news on TV today and was so pleased, Thumper. I had not heard of the book until last year when I joined this site. Just confirms what I believe that AALBC provides me with information on books and writers that I may have missed hearing of. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 05, 2004 - 10:53 pm: |
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Hi Yvette:
Please post or email me a link to the thread where people did not like The Known World. I'd like to see if I can understand an opposing view on this subject.
I have to give credit to Dawn Davis (Editorial Director, Amistad) for turning me onto this book early on. You know all editors say their books are great, so normally I'd be skeptical (even when they say "I'm not just saying it good 'cause it is my book") but she was right congrats to Edward P. Jones
Peace,
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Akaivyleaf
Newbie Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 09:41 am: |
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The premise of The Known World was facinating to me. I'm into different so that is why it appealed to me so I congratulate Edward P. Jones for his accomplishments. |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 90
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:18 am: |
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Troy:
I didn't like it. You can get my opposing view--I can't guarentee you will understand it. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 136
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:38 pm: |
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i guess i'll have to read that BAB...damn! |
Abm
Newbie Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |
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The Known World is an admirable opus. I was intrigued by Jones' matter-of-fact portrayal of the little-discussed issue of Black-Black American Slavery. "World" subtly yet potently argues that, at its core, American Slavery was more an economic issue than it was a racial issue.
But I don't find "World" to be worth quite the esteem that is being lauded upon it. Could the REAL reason why "World" is receiving so much acclaim from the literati is that it makes Blacks, not Whites, the prime villains in a story about of Slavery? |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 93
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 12:53 pm: |
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ABM:
You got it. When I saw all those maggots crawling all over it I knew that they would pile every honor on it they could and laud it to the skies.
"See. All your own people were owning slaves. And it wasn't so bad after all. Look at this book." My answer is that they should sell they mama and little children and see how they like it.
White folks have not put aside the myth they were fed for years (and which I remember hearing as a youngster) that the slaves were happy and content.
Well, this brother is not the first one to make it pandering to their perverted and monstrous notions and won't be the last.
Other than that, the prose was flat, the dialog unconvincing the style tired. It reminded me of that black guy who used to write all those historical romances like The Foxes of Harrow--forget his name. But he did that years ago.
He stated somewhere that he bent over backwards not to do any research--what kind of author writes a historical novel and does no research?
There will be those who will defend it by saying, "They don't give out Pulitzer Prizes for nothing." But they do. And Oscars and Grammies, and Officer's Commissions and degrees, too. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 139
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 02:18 pm: |
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haha...sounds like anotha reason not to give African Americans reparations.... |
Akaivyleaf
Newbie Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 03:51 pm: |
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So you're implying that giving the pulitzer to this author further perpetuates the sterotype that we keep each other down? That is a powerful statement and one I'll have to ponder for a moment. I definitely didn't see it in this light because I thought that while the premise was interesting, it was a bit far fetched, thus fictional. I took the "historical" notion from the setting of the book.
I too read that Mr. Jones didn't go out of his way to research his book because it was fictional and to some degree the anthesis of actuality. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 143
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 04:26 pm: |
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akaivyleaf...i dare say, you are literate and most of us are not. In other words, most folk will not read bios on the author and will probably take the lit as fact, especially since it will be canonized...
also, the fact of the matter is that blacks did own slaves...yet, this fact doesn't change the nature of the system of slavery...but of course, it can be used to foster responsibility to blacks...at least a little; the same way foolish folk have tried to place responsibility for the slave trade on Africans... |
Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 96
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 05:42 pm: |
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I'm saying that the Pulitzer, as are all prizes, are given out for political reasons. This is a fine way for the literary establishement, which sees itself as liberal, to assuage it's so called liberal feelings (see we gave a prize to a deserving black) while at the same time stoking their racism--the way the Academy did in awarding Halle Berry the Oscar for Monster's Ball.
And he writes like Frank Yerby--that's the name I was trying to think of |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 210
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 06:23 pm: |
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Well, Chris, I see some of my cynicism has rubbed off on you. Just as I suspected. When you grow up, you want to be just like me. LOL! |
Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 06:25 pm: |
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If we get rewarded for good work, then people complain. If we don't get rewarded for good work, people complain. And, sometimes it's the same people doing the complaining. They pick a side based on whether or not they like the awardee or agree with them politically. If the awards have no merit then they don't, in all cases, regardless if you like the work or not. Or they have merit even if you like or dislike the work and-or it's producer. |
Crystal
Newbie Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 06:50 pm: |
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Chris: I have to say that was what I was thinking when I first saw the book and it may very well still be valid. But I enjoyed it anyway and he got me with his fake statistics. Yep, I fell for it. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 72
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 09:58 pm: |
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Hello All,
Chris: Well, tell me, how do you think should have won the Pulitzer? Yes, politics are all over the place, I don't see how it can not be. You know I love you, but I have to ask, if the granting the prize to The Known World is another way of keeping us down, what is the publishing industry doing by either publishing the black woman fairy tales (commonly referred to as the u go girl books) or glorifying the thug life, with the majority of both being written with questionable skills? *eyebrow raised* |
Yvette
Newbie Poster
Username: Yvette
Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:24 pm: |
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Hello All,
Another point is that I don't think this book absolves the white man of any responsibility as it relates to slavery. As any other well written, truly depicted, fiction or nonfiction book about that period in history in the United States, The Known World shows the white man for what he was, and in a more subtle way, still is. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 146
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 10:37 pm: |
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Jmho: ...lets not confuse the possibility that the book was good with how it can be used against black folk....exploiting something "good" or "redeemable" is not unusual...similar to how folk use Oprah, Micheal Jordan, and other black horatio algers[west indians and africans] as examples of the absence of racism...for if they can do it, all negros can do it, NO?
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Abm
Newbie Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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Any sage adult Black person should know better than to be too concerned about prizes/awards, especially those that are sponsored by and primarily for White people. Halle Berry being the FIRST Black woman to win a Best Actress Academy Award (for Christ Sake!) proves such things are on the fix.
Now, I don't entirely agree with Chris regarding the relative merits of "World". But I am CERTAIN the acclaim this book enjoys is based as much if not more so to its subject matter as it is to its quality. Had Whites, not Blacks, been the villains of "World, the CERTAINLY would have been no Pulitzer consideration. And Jones would have received much more criticism and condemnation for the paucity of fact/research "World" contained. |
Blkmalereading
Regular Poster
Username: Blkmalereading
Post Number: 35
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:50 pm: |
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Chris:
I'm trying to understand who is it that doesn't or didn't do research? Frank Yerby, Edward Jones or both?
I agree with you about Frank Yerby. I don't think all those 'lovely' southern belles even realized they were reading and loving the works of a Black man all those years, he redeems himself with his masterpieces: A darkness at Ingraham's Crest : A tale of the slaveholding South and The Dahomean. He certainly did research to write these books. Both of these books are on my all time favorite list.
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Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 06, 2004 - 11:59 pm: |
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Yukio wrote:
Jmho: ...lets not confuse the possibility that the book was good with how it can be used against black folk....
Yukio, I don't think I even addressed this notion. However, how could this one book award be used against black folks? Please explain.
Beloved won a Pulitzer, too. By winning the award, was this book, which was also spoke about slavery and it's effects, also used against black folks? If so, how? TIA |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 147
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 12:16 am: |
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Jmho: you generally stated that we can neither satisfied when our books are/are not awarded, NO?
hence, my comments. Of course, I may have misinterpreted your comment.
Yes, I do think this one book award can be used against black folk:
Black slaveholders...blacks are as guilty as whites[africans are responsible for the slave trade, etc...] Now, of course this is a sophomoric judgement, but it is these simplistic positions that rule this polity[US]....I'm talking about the ways in which popular culture[as in a book] is often used to corrobate positions people already have a priori to knowing anything about the issue, so that it is less about the book and more about how the book lends itself to something a person already thinks.
What is TIA? Beloved is a different storyline...and of course, my point doesn't attempt to apply to every novel with slavery as its subject matter. |
Akaivyleaf
Newbie Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 08:55 am: |
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...off to find the criteria for Pulitzer Nominations after I post this.
I agree that awards might not mean anything to some people but there is a flip side to that coin. I'm happy that the prize for literature was awarded to Mr. Jones... It is good press for AA Literature and will encourage someone to read the book which is another point that I stress. I want AA literature to be purchased, read and discussed. I think to a certain degree, everybody that participates here feels some of the same. I would like to think that "WORLD" was awarded the prize based on its literary contribution, not solely on content/subject matter of the story but again I want to research the criterion.
I guess another point would be, would we be more congratulatory of his award if he had won through the NAACP? or other AA sponsored group?
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Chrishayden
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 99
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 11:11 am: |
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Cynique: Good influences always win out.
Jmho: You think it was good work. I don't. Do I have to think it is good work because a lot of other people do? I think a lot of people will think it was good work because it got a prize--but what are sheep for, but to be fleeced? Too often we take the reward as evidence that it was good work.
This society is awash in self congratulatory fake awards and honors that have about as much validity as the awards the Wizard of Oz bestowed on the Scarecrow.
Crystal: You can't help yourself. They got a bunch of black folks to cheer for the white guy in the Rocky movies, too.
Thumper: Who else should have won? Let me get back to you on that. Should it have won? I might not have shut it out--I mean, it was not a coloring book or an illiterate screed. But it carried a poisonous subtext and this has been part of a pattern of the literary establishment. There have been other black books that carried just such a subtext--I think this says more about the award and the presenters than the author.
Don't you think he writes like Frank Yerby?
Yvette: Write on! I hope when the brother gets his award he sez that to them--but he will probably do like the hero of Erasures.
Yukio: Word
(Boy I hate to be giving it to a brother on this, but c'est la vie)
Abm: Do you wonder if his editors or agents might have given him the idea for such a book? What would we do in such a situations?
Blkmale: Jones. I don't know about Yerby--good question. I'll have to go back and look at his stuff.
Jhmo: Beloved was about the horrors of slavery, about how a woman so hated it she killed her child rather than return. In this one, apparently slavery is so nice that a former one has no problem enslaving other blacks--let us ask a question. What would you think of such a person. Can he at least not be described as insensitive? How about monstrous and depraved.
Why has no Jewish person, you think, done a book about how a Jew decides to run a death camp during the Nazi Holocaust? Do you think such a book would receive the Pulitzer?
Akaivleaf: If the NAACP or some other AA group gives him an award, they should be afraid to walk the streets afterwards--but that has not stopped them before.
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Akaivyleaf
Newbie Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 12:43 pm: |
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Chrishayden... I must concur with your assessment of fleecing for my research has concluded that the pulitzer can be bought. Here is why I say that. Upon closer inspection of www.pulizter.org it seems to enter into the Letter(book) competition you need to submit an entry form, a picture and bio, 4 copies of the book and a $50.00 entry fee. There are 18 gods who sit on high, the only name I recognized was Henry Lewis Gates Jr, and they proclaim a winner and award him/her $10K for their efforts. Its seems that if "trash" literature wanted to win one could woo any/all of the Prize Board Members and buy your way to it. In all fairness this Prize board can declare nominating Jurors who in turn make their recommendations back to the board but the board is free to discount their recommendations and chose their own winner. All of these years I thought it was prestigious to attain, now... it just has a fancy name to go.
Sure... I think a Jewish person could write such a book and win the prize. He just has to convince 18 folk (or the majority of the 18) that he could use 10K. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 101
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 01:38 pm: |
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Skip Gates is on the Board. It becomes clearer now. . . . |
Crystal
Newbie Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 22
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 02:12 pm: |
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Chris: not being a Rocky fan I’m not quite sure what you mean by your comment but it seems pretty condescending . . . at best. But knowing you as you post to this board I’m not going to get into it with you.
Back to your original point and the comment of others – I’m not concerned at all that white folks may use this book against us. Their arsenal against us is already huge, no matter real or imaginary. Other than the current discussions on reparations, which I don’t think will happen regardless, what else is new? Should Jones not have written this book in fear of what the white folks would do with it? Or are you just saying: no need to get excited that they gave him the award – because they don’t really mean it?
Anyway, I thought it was a good book before the prize was awarded and enjoyed reading it and I still think so after your nasty little comments.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 02:41 pm: |
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Crystal and Akaivyleaf:
I must say, this doesn't change that the book is good(haven't read it and don't know)...all awards are subjective...yet, how we, people in general, attach meaning to these things is another story.... |
Abm
Newbie Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 02:41 pm: |
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I agree most awards, even those that once harbored some alleged esteem, are primarily meaningless. We ALL could cite undeserving winners and worthy losers of COUNTLESS awards. And there are so many of them, they are being dolled out like pumpkin candy on Halloween. So it really isn't even worth arguing over whether/not "World" is deserving of a Pulitzer.
I’m not saying "World" isn’t worthy of reading. Because I found it to be competently written. But I just don’t believe it merits the rapturous praise it is garnering. I may be wrong. But I can't help attributing such acclaim to some covert, perhaps subconscious attempt of ‘certain people’ to absolve themselves of the sordid history of slavery/racism.
I think the common vernacular for this phenomenon is called "Blame the Victim".
Chris, I don’t believe Jones was steered into penning word. From what I gather, he has written only 2 books in +10 years. Such a man is likely incapable of writing on editorial command. I suspect, though, others might have over-emphasized the portions of the books that are more damning of the Black slaveowners. No, "World" is Jones' own baby. Though, an editor might have wet-nursed it some.
I'd like to think I could NEVER pen a hatch-job on Blacks. But, if I were in a "John Q" type situation, who knows?
And I wholeheartedly concur with your point about the improbability of a book featuring a Jew running a death camp ever winning ANY prestigious award, much less a Pulitzer. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 153
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 02:49 pm: |
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It seems that many of folk on the Pulitzer board were/are connected to Columbia University's journalism program...two black folk..Jay T. Harris and Gates. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 103
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 03:06 pm: |
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Crystal:
Re the "Rocky" comment--when the movie first came out--76-77 it was about midway in the 2nd reign of Muhammad Ali as heavyweight champ. Despite all the accolades given him now, plenty of people hated him. I would say most of the white people especially who saw or went to his fights went there hoping he would get murdered. They even went to the length of, in the late 60's doing a "computerized" fantasy fight that would have proved that Rocky Marciano would have beaten him.
They were lusting for somebody white to beat him. Nobody white since Ingemar Johanssen had got within spitting distance of the crown. They could only do so on film--something Stallone obliquely referred to when he spoke to the success of his Rocky and Rambo films--something about exploiting an open wound.
Anyway, the Carl Weathers figure especially was supposed to be Ali. Some of us saw this immediately--a lot of black people were in the movie cheering for Rocky--caught up in the courageous underdog story--and were unaware that they were in effect cheering against themselves.
Don't mean they were stupid or toms or anything--movies can do that to you. When you said you fell for it--that's what you were supposed to do. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 156
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 03:47 pm: |
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ch: interesting points...i would have never considered this...b/c of my age....76/77 whoa! |
Abm
Newbie Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 04:44 pm: |
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I never fell for the Rocky Balboa okey doke. (Can you believe those FOOLS in Philadelphia erected a statute of the fake Rocky instead of their true homegrown Heavyweight Champ Joe Frazier.) I have know several Black ex-fighters. An Italian tomato can like Rocky never would have laid a glove on even the worst of them. And real versions of a Rocky's Apollo Creed (Carl Weathers) and a Clubber Lang (Mr. T) would have pounded Stallone into protoplasm. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 216
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 04:55 pm: |
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Chris, the only problem with your theory about "The Known World" is that: - it makes sense! ........I can't believe I said that. LOL
BTW, Willard Motley, whose most famous book "Knock on Any Door", was a best seller about white characters and was later made into a movie, was another successful writer who people didn't know was black. He was from Chicago and after his books made him rich he moved to a villa in Mexico where he and his young male companions kept a low profile. |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 77
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 07, 2004 - 09:51 pm: |
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Hello All,
Chris: I have two problems with your posts. First, why are you worried about what white folks think anyway? *eyebrow raised* Now, that's slavery. Free yourself. And if any white folks would be that stupid to use The Known World as a justification or a "see you all did it too", surely to goodness you can counter that. But, why even go there anyway? Are you trying to save their souls or what? We got black folks who won't eat watermelon because of what white folks might think. Naturally, I aint one of them. I can't wait for summer to sit out on my porch, with my salt and newspaper eating on some watermelon. We got black folks who talk in that nasal tone, whose diction is so sharp and enunciation is so tight I could bounce a dime off of it, all so that "white folks won't think that we all talk Ebonics". Then there are those black folks that won't go near a pot of greens and eat only French food, because then "all white folks will think we eat that slave/planation food". So no, if any part of your life is guarded, altered, or modified because you're afraid of what white folks will think of you, you are locked up and chained better than any slave in 1700-1800 America.
Second, and I really hate that I'm about to sound like a black republican/conservative (boy what an oxymoron), but why can't we believe that blacks owned other blacks as slaves. Whether Jones did the research or not, it happens to be true. My family, on my mother's side, got started that way. I wouldn't be here if my great great great grandfather did not buy Lucy, a slave. To me, The Known World did an excellent job in portraying the inhumanity and cruelity of slavery. Jones went a step farther by showing the mindset of how an enterprising young black man became poisoned mentally by wanting what the white man had and getting it by the white man's way of thinking, damning all what he was taught of the difference between right and wrong. He should have known better. This was made more poignant because of most of our successful black businessmen and women. They don't walk the afrocentric line in order to get ahead, do they? I don't see ol' Condelezza with braids or dreadlocks, do you? *eyebrow raised* I bet you can't get an "ain't" to come out of Clarence Thomas's mouth if his mama's life depended on it. And all of those Motown artists, they are getting their fair share of royalities, aint they? And every black boxer that was/is manage by Don King got paid what they truly deserved?
My point being, our history is conflicted, beautiful, inspiring, uplifting, and down right ugly. We have to be real about it and embrace all of it, and not just the parts that we like or show us in a positive light, or constantly the victim. |
Akaivyleaf
Newbie Poster
Username: Akaivyleaf
Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 07:38 am: |
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Its not that we can't believe it Thumper, it just goes against the grain of everything that I've been taught, but I'll go back to my motto of researching before I sufficiently stick my foot in my mouth. My family was tainted by white blood early on so I can't personally say it existed on my family tree.
As far as the book, I read it and found it interesting. It kept me reading to find out more about the subject. The writing was superb and I deeply respect for a well told, well written story. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 107
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 12:38 pm: |
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Thumper:
My mind is freed, I am a disciple of you and George Clinton.
I submit it is those that will laud this book because it got a Pulitzer and glowing reviews from white folks that care more about what the white folks think--
I have not denied that other black folks owned other blacks as slaves. There were apparently some blacks who fought for the South during the Civil War. But I smell about all the praise being heaped on this book the scent of those who would advance both examples as proving that 1) slavery wasn't all that bad or 2) slaveowners wasn't all that bad, after all, yo own people did it.
My main position is that the book ain't all that. 2nd rate Frank Yerby at best. Why is all this being heaped on it? It ain't a stylistic tour de force like Wideman or Morrison. It ain't the culmination (from Jones' own mouth) of years of research. It ain't a brilliant character study
it ain't a deep philosophical dissertation, it ain't none of these things.
It ain't funny, overly gross, groundbreaking, not even tremendously long it didn't sell particularly well--why is it then is all this praise and honor being heaped on it? |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 109
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 03:06 pm: |
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Thumper:
I just had a brainstorm. Why don't you and Troy use your awesome powers to summon Jones to the board as you did Kevin Powell not long ago? |
Abm
Regular Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 03:47 pm: |
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Chris,
If Troy/Thumper mashed their immense intellects together (ouch!), would they form the enormous, omniscent, all-powerful Uni-Mind? |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 10:30 am: |
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"omniscent, all-powerful Uni-Mind" (smile). No need to merge minds minds this time ABM, 'cause (and it may be a first) I'm in complete agreement with Thumper on this one.
I was "signing the praises" (as Thumper would say) of The Known World (TKW) long BEFORE the Pulitzer was awarded -- it had no impact on my impression of the book.
The award will sell more books. That is all I care about regarding the award -- I did not need it to substantiate my feeling about TKW.
Chris I believe I understand your problem with the book. For example, Berry's Oscar for Monster's Ball: Sure, a fine Black Women, with their baby's father on death row, could have sex with an ugly white man -- that probably happened somewhere. I actually was not pleased seeing Berry win the Oscar for this role. If this is what it takes for a sister to get that award then they could shove it up their A--. Of course many would disagree with me; as they disagree with you on TKW.
Jone's work was pure fiction. How many people where decrying the lack of "research" on Monster's Ball. Jones work was not "historical fiction". The fact that could write a book, which many believe to be true, is evidence of his skill.
Chris re-read Thumper post from April 7th; seems you missed a bunch of points he made. Better yet re-read Jones' book. You'll find more example of how Jones demonstrates that slavery both dehuminaizes the slave and the slave owner.
It is not clear to me why you think someone, after reading the book, would come away with the feeling "slavery wasn't all that" or "slaveowners wasn't all that bad, after all, your own people did it." You could only make this connection if you came with a lot of the wrong baggage.
In reality we all approach books with a lot of other baggage, that is why we can feel so strongly often differently about them.
I guess you (like the NAACP) feel that Morrison's Love should have own the award for fiction? More dyfunctionally doomed Black families. "Hey pedophillia can't be all that bad you people do it", right?
What books do you think should have wonn or been considered Chris?
Correction to URL in above post http://www.pulitzer.org
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 112
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:19 am: |
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Troy:
How about getting Jones here on on the chat so we can skewer--er--question him in person?
So far I have been commenting on the mindsets of the white folks who have been singing the praises of the book. I know that a lot of people will come away from the book thinking Slavery wasn't all that because they go TO the book with that mindset and they are looking for a black man to tell them tht because they don't want to be perceived as racists (I don't know why. Their grandaddies were proud of it. I guess the Hitler thing put that in disrepute.)
Be that as it may--if he did no research, how then can you believe his book to be true? That is to say that you are convinced that there is a Land of Oz because L. Frank Baum's story was so good and convincing.
But I digress. I don't have to read the book again, but since me and you go back so far, I will wade through the stilted prose and Frank Yerbyisms (tell the truth. He writes like a poor man's Yerby, don't he) again because I have been wrong before--to paraphrase Bonaparte I have been wrong so often I no longer trip over it.
I don't think you understand my problems with the book. My first impression, beyond the presentation of this distasteful subject, which does have the effect of hiding the shortcomings of Jones as a writer, is that it is not all that.
Indeed there have been presentations of distasteful main characters, in Moby Dick in Crime and Punishment, in Native Son, in The Godfather, in Frankenstein, in that have been artistic classics.
This ain't one of them. Jones looked into the abyss and backed away. It is not particularly well written, it is not particularly groundbreaking, it is not particularly brilliant, it is just a book which keeps leading me back to the question of if it is not all that, why are people praising it.
It is not horrible. Granting of the Pulitzer to him is not a crime against nature, and in the end, it is their prize and theirs to do as they want and if they want to stick it where the sun don't shine (a possibility that tickles many of us, who have been more than once scandalized at their choices) they may.
I can't answer for you in particular, only for those who I think have some agenda. Let me ask you what about it was so good? So groundbreaking. The style? The characters? The plot? The theme? Think about it before you answer.
If you want to compare it to Love, which, if you will review your archives, I had my own problems with, I will say that stylistically The Known World could not hold it's pencilcase.
I didn't know me and the NAACP agreed on this. Apparently their approval is the kiss of death for you. How do you feel about Brown v Board of Education?
The families in Love were not dysfunctionally doomed, but if they were, how is that worse than making a tragic hero of a Black Slaveholder? Maybe it is a problem I have. Maybe I have a problem with seeing certain classes of people, (Black Slaveholders, paedophiles, mass murderers, cannibals, serial killers) in a sympathetic light.
My bad.
Re: what book should have won instead at this point I haven't the slightest idea. Maybe this book should have won which would be a comment on the paucity of fine books that came out in the last year and the putrid state of American literature in general.
Maybe that is it. Maybe sometime the Committee should come out (I know several times in the poetry category they should have) and stated flatly, we are not making an award this year.
After all, an award of this type is purely subjective. What is the best work of fiction? The longest? The fastest read? The one that uses the most semi colons?
It is not like the best runner or the best basketball team--you have no standard. It is what we say it is. In that light, my coming back to say what other book I think should have won it is meaningless, but I will try.
I will consider the question. But I believe also in your archives I had posted, in response to a question of what book I would vote Book of the Year, the answer: None.
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Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 22
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:37 pm: |
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Chrishayden wrote:
Jmho: You think it was good work. I don't. Do I have to think it is good work because a lot of other people do?
No but then again I didn't say that I thought it was good work. I didn't say anything one way or the other.
Chrishayden wrote:
I think a lot of people will think it was good work because it got a prize--
but what are sheep for, but to be fleeced? Too often we take the reward as evidence that it was good work.
Well there many more people thought it was good work before it was awared the Pulitzer this week or even before it received any of the awards it's received to date. Are those people considered as sheep, too? If you think the work is good and it gets rewarded, which came first? You liking the book because it's good or because it was rewarded. Each reader has to answer that question for themselves.
Chrishayden wrote:
Thumper: Who else should have won? Let me get back to you on that.
Yes please do that, I'd interested in what "good" works you think should have received this award.
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 59
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:47 pm: |
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Chris, ok, so your problem with TKW is based upon your perception of how a white person would interpret it? Sure I could believe some white people who perceive it that way. Again I did not consider white folks, or anyone else's views, as I read the book.
Let's put this in perspective: I never said the book was ground breaking, the best book ever written or anything like that. There are many books I've read, which I’ve enjoyed more. However I do feel TKW was the best of all the books I read last year. I may have read about 20 novels last year about half were published in 2003, of course this minute portion of the tens of thousands of books published in 2003 but…
Given that;
(1) Other Black Publishing Professionals applaud the book
(2) Thumper and other professional reviewers universally praised the book
(3) It was a finalist for the National Book Award
(4) It won the Pulitzer
(5) Most avid readers here enjoyed the book
(6) The today show picked it for its reading list
(&) The book was on AALBC.com's and Essence best sellers lists
I think we can say, as a novel, The Known World is a decent if not very good novel -- by virtually any, reasonable standard. While 2003 may not have had a bumper crop of great books TKW is one of the best on many people’s lists. Of course you are free to disagree – I’ll even facilitate it..
I can give you my specific reasons regarding prose, characters and story but that is not going help you as you are not judging the book. You are evaluating the potential impact the book may have on the mindset a specific group of people. Of course these are two completely different conversations. I will say that I did not feel Jones made a "tragic hero of a Black Slaveholder". In fact, I found the character sad. [POTENTIAL SPOLIER - NEXT SENTENCE] I found is father more of the tragic hero: disowning his own son after working to hard to earn his freedom -- because his son would own a slave.
Chris the question is really: of the novels that you read, which were published in 2003, would you consider the best of the crop. If you read only one novel published in 2003 -- that one would be the best. Of course this is completely subjective and more importantly relative to the universe of book YOU have read. I would not take your selection to mean that it was the best book published that year, or to mean that it was the best book you ever read. But you have to have an opinion.
In this context your frequent comparison of Jones to Yerby may be accurate but is irrelevant.
As far as getting Jones involved in this thread. What would you expect from him? Would you have him defend against your assumptions of the negtaive impact TKW has on the impression of Black people by whites?
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 230
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 03:00 pm: |
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Maybe a distinction should be made between what is a good novel, and what is an important book. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 114
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 10:46 am: |
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Troy:
I understand with these cause celebres nothing less than fawning admiration will do for the devotees--see the trouble I got into when I suggested that Love was less than perfect.
My problem with the book is I don't like it. I don't hate it--I don't think it should be burned and don't think Jones should be horsewhipped. I just don't think it is all that.
Maybe it is all that . It will not be the first time, if it was not, that a bunch of people jumped on the bandwagon and were proved wrong (see the landslide election victories of Richard Nixon, the Pet Rock phenomenon, and the Y2K panic---You ought to blush to be in the same literary camp as Katie Couric, by the way.
I will however again plow through that bilge again and see if I was mistaken--but I don't think so.
So you DO think he writes like Frank Yerby!
I would have Jones on here so that he might provide enlightenment. Maybe there is some deep stylistic meaning or theme that I missed. He don't have to. He certainly got enough people snowed already--
Cynique: It ain't good--it is fair to middling. It sure ain't important. |
Orphalese
First Time Poster
Username: Orphalese
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 01:49 pm: |
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I'm new at this so please bear with me.
I read TKW last year after the Washington Post Book World's Jonathan Yardley did a front page story on it. I love THE KNOWN WORLD. After reading it, it made sense to me that highly skilled freed slaves were given permission to stay in the state of Virginia (because they could be used), while other freed slaves had to leave. If a freed slave had permission to stay, he would have to "own" his family members. Otherwise, they would have to leave the state.
Does anyone remember CANE RIVER? Doralese was a freed slave who owned slaves. Wealthy ex-slaves had the choice of leaving everyone behind and heading north, or staying and providing a protected haven for those still enslaved to live and work.
Jones admits that he didn't do "extensive" research for the book, but he did attend college in Virginia. Just by taking core requirements there he would have learned that slaves owned slaves in Antebellum(sp?) Virginia.
You may want to think a bit about getting Edward Jones on this Posting Board. I saw him at a book signing, and he can be pretty brutal on readers that have not actually "read" his book. Jones has said that he was trying to created characters that worked for something bigger than themselves.
Hope this helps.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 232
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 02:17 pm: |
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Chris, your opinion about this book is just that;an opinion. Whether you liked it or not, doesn't detract from the idea that the subject matter of "The Known World" is an important one, and this book had brought focus to a controversial issue that lends itself to stimulating discussion. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 160
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 05:37 pm: |
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interesting commments and exchanges....i don't think this is that serious...here it is in a nutshell:
1. educated folk who read the book will get it; now, their political leanings, regardless of the inhumanity presented in the book, will win out, however.
2.i've read a few of his short stories...solid writer...and because of the political environment...we are participating in a war...and the movies is taking about the inhumanity of us all...then this is also a reflection by a liberal pulizter committee and a fascist US gov...vs. the evil but not as power muslims...bleeding liberals, should i say?
3.uneducated folk, immature readers, etc....will use it as CH and I say.
4. Much of this has less to do with the details of the story, since most folk aren't readers and if the do...it'll be because they have to for engl.200[black classics]...and most college grad., don't know if you've noticed...aren't that bright.... |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 161
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 05:39 pm: |
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oops...i meant that "the book is talking about the inhumanity...." |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 06:23 pm: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: *LOL* *clapping* The number 1, 2 (except for the facist government part), 4 on your last post is on point. I disagree with number 3. The folks who will use the book as CH pointed out will be very educated, not the least bit immature, but highly racist. There's not much you can do for those types of people is hope that they die soon, and didn't breed too often.
All: Chris is entitled to his opinion. I think he's getting beaten up over it and it's not fair. Although I disagree with it, I still respect it and Chris for giving it. Most of all, I'm glad that its Chris in the hot seat. I needed a break from all the E. Lynn Harris and you go girl book fans.
Chris: I haven't ignored your question, I'm ill prepared to answer it. I haven't read Frank Yerby to say whether Jones writes like him or not. Sese (hey) kindly mailed me one of his books that I still have yet to read (I'm not being ungrateful or unappreciative, just busy). Chris, you done slipped and showed your age. Yerby is one of those old AA authors that has been out of print for decades. Maybe, hopefully, someone will bring one or two of his books back into print for us younger generations to read.
All: Hey, if you all still think that Troy and I are the same person, I'm not going to dispute it anymore. I'm going to roll with it. I'm shocked that Troy and I agreed on the same book. Believe it or not, we disagree most of the time. He usually waits to get me in person to tell me. Then he dresses me down, which in and of itself is a feat since I'm taller than he is. But, I'm scared of his wife beating me up, so I don't tip over the chair he's standing in while he's talking to me. *LOL* Oh, but I forgot, we're the same person, with one hell of a debt ratio maintaining two seperate residences, one in NYC and the other in Indianapolis. *eyebrow raised*
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 163
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 03:06 am: |
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thumper:
#1 implicates the educated racists, like D'nesh D'Souza, see The End OF Racism and more recently What So Great About America, chpt 4.THE REPARATIONS FALLACY: What African-Americans Owe America....http://www.dineshdsouza.com/
And as for 3., well those uneducated folk who'll try to read the BAB will not get it...neither the sublty, nuances, nor the complexity of a black slaveholder....so these simpletons would say, "wel, if blak pee po enslaved e'chada...why dey all weys cry'n rasizm?"
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 117
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 10:17 am: |
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All:
More gas on the fire.
This Saturday I was in the Divoll Branch of the St. Louis public library and wandered into a book discussion held by the Sisters Nineties Book Circle, a local literary group. Both men and women were present.
They were discussing the life and works of Jessie Fauset.
I brought up that Jones' Book had won the Pultizer Prize. Unbidden, group members offered the almost unanimous opinion that this book is one that might be used by apologists for slavery to say it wasn't all that bad.
The opinion ain't just mine alone. It may be interesting to see how much of the general black reading public feels the same way.
Jones may have plenty of opportunity to be brutal with people he thinks haven't read his book |
Pierced
First Time Poster
Username: Pierced
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 07:22 pm: |
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I beg to differ with Chrishayden!! Jones never wrote anything in the book about the slaves, slaveholders or slavery that would give Caucasians the temerity to say that "See. All your own people were owning slaves. And it wasn't so bad after all. Look at this book."
In fact, I got the distinct impression that the black slaveholders were conflicted (although self imposed) about the position they were in.
Like most African-Americans, the subject of slavery is not a "picnic" for me either. However, there were a minority of slaveholding black people. (That's a fact.) And Jones is not wrong to write about it - fictionally or otherwise. We need to know about our history in this country - the good, the bad, indifferent, etc. No race of people is all good or all bad and black people or no exception. As we like to say, "let's keep it real".
Lastly, don't you think the title of the book was ironic - "The Known World"? Because the world between those pages is largely unchartered territory.
I for one say "Thank you Edward P. Jones for making the point that slavery is evil and insidious in all its forms." It's just unfortunate that some of us just didn't get it.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 248
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 11:03 pm: |
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I agree, "Pierced". That's why I previously expressed the opinion that "The Known World" is an important book. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 171
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:25 am: |
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you all are missing the point...if most of the population reads at a 8th grade reading level and we have both a conservative and liberal government that doesn't take responsibility for their wrongdoings, then what makes you sensible educated black folk believe that most of the population will get the nuances of the book, even read the book...call me a cynic! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:52 am: |
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Break it down to 'em, Yukio. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 249
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:03 pm: |
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You are missing the point. This book is another facet of the black experience. It is there, as well it should be, to be read by those who are interested in familiarizing themselves with this aspect of their history. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 124
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:29 pm: |
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Cynique:
It ain't part of MY history. It's part of somebody's history, but I haven't noticed a stampede of folks coming forth to claim it. Wonder why? You think maybe the newly freed slaves had some special treatment for their brethren who decided to become slavemasters, too--such that they did not survive to have descendants? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 252
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 01:35 pm: |
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If the people are black and what they experienced took place over a hundred years ago it's black history. Whoever said the black experience was homogenous and or even pleasant, for that matter. |
Abm
Veteran Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 59
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 03:03 pm: |
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Cynique,
How can you assert that Jone's book represents a part of Black history/experience when the man freely admits it is backed by virtually NO research? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 174
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 03:19 pm: |
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ChrisHayden: Not sure that it is part of my personal history, but it is par to of my cultural or ethnic group's(i use the term sparingly)history.
Cynique: I'm not sure you've read my posts, since I've already confirmed the fact of black slaveholders long ago(maybe ten years now) and didn't require epj to tell me like most. Nevertheless, my point had nothing to do with people familiarizing themselves with their history or coming to terms with the heterogeneity of the black experience. It had to do with how information being used and understood by ignorant folk and aided by educated folk, conservative think tanks, public policy, etc... Again, see chapter 4: http://www.dineshdsouza.com/
Everyone:
As I've stated on the TiffanyDavis post, I could care less about what white folk think, and I embrace the humanity of black folk, ie...the good and bad, but I'm clear about the relationships between knowledge and governance. Indeed, to be fair, I don't if this book could be used to change any policy, but it can be used as aggregate evidence of the invalidity of reparations or the negliegence of the US. For a recent example, we can consider the welfare reform program in the 1990s, the Clinton administration, William Julius Wilson, and public perceptions of black women as the underbelly and exploiters of the welfare system...welfare queens, etc...the underclass academic literature...this is where I'm coming from.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 253
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 04:46 pm: |
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ABM, just because Jones didn't do extensive research on this subject does not mean that there wasn't information there for him to do research on. There are valid records showing that not only were there free blacks back then, but there were free blacks who owned slaves.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 254
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 04:48 pm: |
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Yukio, we have enough black historians and intellects to thwart any white attempt to rationalize slavery and assuage the pain of it by saying that blacks were guilty of owning slaves, too. Actually, you don't even have to be an intellectual to have enough common sense to understand that slavery is evil, no matter who the slave master is. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 177
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 05:25 pm: |
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Well Cynique:
Call me a cynic! If these issues were about morality, then I would submit most folk would say that slavery is bad(although I've heard many foolish african americans state that slavery was good because it got us out of the jungle and made us Christians). Yet, I'm contextualizing slavery and this book within a political debate. Furthermore, there has always been research available to challenge and even demonstrate the invalidity of the welfare queen thesis[and in this case the immorality and wealth production of slavery, lets no forget it was a form of production], but it was not sufficient enough to challenge welfare reform in the 1990s...at the end of the day, it had more to do with access to political power and the media...I don't think we disagree, btw.
Good Evening! |
Pierced
Newbie Poster
Username: Pierced
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 08:58 pm: |
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Yukio:
You said that, "If these issues were about morality, then I would submit most folk would say that slavery is bad(although I've heard many foolish african americans state that slavery was good because it got us out of the jungle and made us Christians). Yet, I'm contextualizing slavery and this book within a political debate."
Well call me stupid, but I don't think that the issue of slavery or slaveholders was and is a part of anyone's political debate or agenda (both Democrats and Republicans). Not even Al Sharpton - and we know he doesn't run away from controversy!!!!
So what is, exactly, your point? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 179
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 09:32 pm: |
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Pierced:
I would hate to call anyone stupid, but I'm tempted...just joking. You should read all my posts, which pertained to reparations, epj's book, and politics.
The basic premise was that educated conservatives use certain information against black folk to circumvent our political pursuits; in addition, i argued that most of the population would not understand the nuances of slavery (in this case the KNown World) and would ignorantly use it to confirm what they already believe. As a past example, I used welfare reform.
I'm assuming, of course, that you're not limiting what is "political" to US political parties. I am not. When I talk about the "political" I'm referring to formal politics, political parties, voting, and participation in the civic society; as well as well international politics, between nations, and politics generally as in the pursuit of groups to procure power and the relations over power conflicts. As it relates to reparations, there are a variety of positions. In general, however, many activists have focused on reparations as a human rights issue, so that it can be addressed at the United Nations...this strategy is as old as the 1950s, perhaps older...
Hopefully, if you take the time to read my posts within the context of this post, then you have a better idea where I'm coming from. |
Abm
Veteran Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 62
Registered: 04-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 09:44 pm: |
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Cynique,
I find it to be intellectually 'risky' to mention "The Known World" within a 'serious' discussion about Black history when the author almost proudly acknowledges that the book includes very little research.
As I have argued before: People don't read enough books. And I dare you to cite another well-known book that prominently discusses Black-on-Black American slavery. So what if Jones' characterization of when/how Blacks own other Blacks are false? Would we then want current/future students to consider "World" to be worthy of serious inquiry/study?
Perhaps, though, the broad interest in "World" will inspire others to learn what really happened. If that occurs, maybe all of this apparent consternation it has caused will be worth the trouble. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 180
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:21 pm: |
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abm: blacks owned slaves...some free blacks purchased their family members; some purchased their own freedom(manumission papers) and then purchased their children or wives; and finally others were purchased to produce a commodity...and as white slave owners, these black masters were interested in productivity.
I can not think of a book on black slaveholders off the top of my head, but I will get the citation within a few days. |
Pierced
Newbie Poster
Username: Pierced
Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:36 pm: |
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Thanks Yukio for the invitation to read your other posts - I will. And thank you for explaining your basic premise to me. Now let me explain to you where I am coming from.
My understanding of the point of this "on-going" discussion is that some folks think "The Known World" was unworthy of Pulitzer recognition and that its subject matter is abhorent to some.
My understanding of your quote in my post, is that you were framing the issue within the context of a political debate.
You responded that your premise is: conservatives would use the book's subject matter to circumvent black folks' political pursuits. You also went on to include reparations (which I was not aware was being discussed and was not mentioned in the book) and its relevancy to politics in all its forms and guises. (Again, I was not aware this was relevant to the book.)
However, since you brought it up - I agree that reparations should be paid. But have problems with in what form and how to distribute.
But back to political institutions, groups, parties, etc. Slavery and its lingering influence over the mental, emotional, economic and political lives of black people, has never stopped us from progressing.
If slaves, ex slves, early civil rights activists and just "plain folks" had overly concerned themselves with the myths, fallacies and straight up lies that white people said about them, I doubt that you would have this discussion forum today.
I doubt seriously, that Edward P. Jones' book is going to hurt the cause for reparations or justify slavery.
Those who came before us paved the way. If you are about reparations and the majority of black people in this country are for reparations, then do what the elders did - sacrifice for it, fight for it, be willing to die for it. If we are that commited - it will happen.
But for heaven's sake, let's not lay the weight on Mr. Jones and his book.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 181
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:12 pm: |
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Pierced:
Gotcha. I agree with your points about our freedom fighters, but as you will read, my posts are less about E.P Jones and the book as a subject and more about how the be can be used be used. In addition, I'm making an intellectual connections between mass and high culture and politics, so that my analysis doesn't have to limit itself to the contents.
ABM: Here is a title: James L. Roark, Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South(New York: Norton, 1984). |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 182
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:16 pm: |
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sorry for the typos...let try again:
I agree with your points about our freedom fighters, but as you will read, my posts are less about E.P Jones and the book as a subject and more about how the book can be used. In addition, I'm making intellectual connections between mass and high culture and politics, so that my analysis doesn't have to limit itself to the contents. Also, this doesn't preclude participation in freedom movements. Indeed our tradition has always included various political strategies...
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 257
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 12:25 am: |
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ABM, "The Known World" would be considered historical fiction. It's about a subject that should be acknowledged whether in a documentary or a novel. |
Jmho
Newbie Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 25
Registered: 03-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 07:55 am: |
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Pierced wrote:
I doubt seriously, that Edward P. Jones' book is going to hurt the cause for reparations or justify slavery.
This is it. People will or who want to justifiy slavery, make a case against reparations or whateva can use any book to make their claim. You had/have some people using the Bible (or any religious text, for that matter) to justify their behavior and actions. If it's not this book, it will be a TV show, a movie, a video or any news report, on the nightly news or from the paper, to back up their already formed opinion. Because that's what most people do. They form an opinion and then *find* "sources" to support that opinion.
I also find it interesting how many are so concerned about what white people (WP) will think of blacks. Do you really live your life wondering and worrying about what WP will think if I do or say this?
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 185
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 08:54 am: |
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jmho:
no, i don't care. As I've stated, and as your thread makes clear, folk will come to many issues with their minds already made up. I do think this can be used, and my posts are more informative than precautionary...I've actually answered this question already yesterday...good morning....whoa 7:55...i haven't seen that time in a few days! I need to get it right! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 130
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 10:55 am: |
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All:
I don't think that Jones's book will give any extra ammunition to racists. They came to the book as creeps and are gonna be creeps and will use Mary had a little lamb to justify their diseased beliefs in racial superiority.
I just have stated, and I reiterate, that I don't think the book was all that--it did not impress me like Native Son or Mumbo Jumbo, was not an intellectual tour de force like All Stories are True or Invisible Man, did not work me like Love, did not mystify me like Temple of My Familiar or Beloved, did not strike me as a work of genius like The Color Purple, did not get to me like American Dreams or Big Bank Take Little Bank, so I cast about for some reason as to why it was raising all this hell.
I have come upon another theory--not exclusive but to be added to others--that a lot of black male readers support it because it is not a gangsta book and because of the writing style, which, though totally 20th century to me is neat and learned, if not intellectually challenging. |
Thumper
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Username: Thumper
Post Number: 91
Registered: 01-2004
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 12:48 pm: |
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Hello All,
You all should know that I'm loving this thread. Since you all know how I feel about The KNown World, I won't repeat it. I still love the book.
Yukio: I still have a basic problem with your theories; mainly, the reason The Known World shouldn't be read by certain folks, like conservatives or that idiot D'Souza and the uneducated masses. Being quite frank, I don't like it because it screams of censorship, and I abhor censorship, especially when someone states that its for my own good. It would be Orwell's 1984 come to life in brilliant made for TV color. So what if that idiot D'Zouza uses it for his own good. Any rational, sane thinking person, wouldn't pay that fool no mind. And anyone that listens to him is right foolish as well. The best you can do with D'Souza is hope he don't breed.
For the so called "uneducated", what you said borders on insulting their intelligence. Isn't it peoples right to read what they want and draw the conclusions that they want to? Isn't that the same belief that the white American society used for not educating their slaves, for fear of what ideas the slaves might come up with? *eyebrow raised* |
Abm
Veteran Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 68
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 12:58 pm: |
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Thanks Yukio for the referral. I will surely consult Roark’s "Black Masters: A Free Family of Color in the Old South" soon.
I concur partly with Chris’ last post. "World" was a good though unspectacular book. It’s popularity and acclaim stems largely from it’s subject matter (I would be happy to argue that point with Jones directly.). And I don’t think "World" will materially affect the reparations movement or any other attempts to redress the effects of slavery and racism.
I suppose my only real concern about authenticity of "World" stems from there being so little else that is widely written/spoken on its primary subject matter. I’d regret the fictional "World" becoming the foremost reference on its topic. But I should concede my concern is borne largely from being cynical about the degree of scholarship both within/outside the Black communities. So, as I previously said, I hope it inspires deeper, more authentic discovery about Black-Black slavery. |
Abm
Veteran Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 69
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 01:18 pm: |
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Yukio,
I admit to sampling some of the literary swill that D'Zouza deals (Sorry, Chris. But like "The Godfather" Don Coleone said, I too think there are times when "You should keep your friends close and your enemies CLOSER."). But he is so obviously a bought/f@#$&ed whore for the intellectual right, it’s difficult for me to take a guys like him too seriously. D'Zouza, who is of Eastern Indian distraction, is so ENTHRALLED with Europeans; he probably ‘blew’ half the white guys he attended college with. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 136
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 01:33 pm: |
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Cynique and all:
Let us do our own little poll right here. Everybody of African American extraction who's ancestors, no matter how distant, owned slaves fess up right here.
No cheating now. You gotta have or point to some documentation--names of owners, dates of birth and death, place of residence, numbers of slaves owned, names--something--not just, "Yeah, my Great Aunt Lucy told me my 100th cousin removed Rastus owned a couple."
You know, this might not just be comforting to white folks. A lot of black folks might find some comfort in the idea that their great great great great grandaddy might have owned some nigras. They see themselves, wearing a Rhett Butler outfit. Lounging on the veranda sipping a mint julep while darkies scampered to and fro.
They can see themselves running down to the slave quarters to pleasure themselves with somebody's wife or daughter (rape actually). They can see themselves selling their own children down the river, breaking up families.
It is a story of Negro empowerment, what?
I can see one even better. This black guy is free and wants to own slaves but is so broke he can't buy none so he takes ownership of himself. Then he sells himself down the river, beats himself for getting sassy, tells the white folks he is planning an uprising, and tracks himself down and brings himself back when he runs away.
Now THERE would have been a book! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 268
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 02:15 pm: |
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No way, Chris. I am not particpating in any poll that is self serving for the person who is conducting it. Especially since in this case, its results would be irrelevant to the subject. It's like saying that if you are not descended from a black man who was lynched, then the tragedy of lynching is no concern of yours. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 137
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 03:32 pm: |
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Cynique:
This is a new subject. I asked if any African American posters ancestors owned slaves. All you had to do to avoid suspicion was to let it pass. Instead, under the influence of God only knows what motivation, you had to post that you were not going to answer or participate, which in itself could serve as some sort of answer--"Yes, your honor. When I posted that question she got very excited. Insisted that she was not going to participate. It was downright suspicious to me. I mean, I can't come right out and say that she was guilty, but when you throw a rock in a pack of cats the only one that hollers is the one who gets hit, if you know what I mean."
I taught you to be more subtle and clever than that. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 270
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 04:36 pm: |
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Should've started a new post, fella. And, I didn't stutter. I ain't participating in your poll. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 187
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 05:27 pm: |
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thumper: no where have i said that people should not read "the known world." Thus, your censorship comments is a misread and/or miscommunication on both of our parts.
To repeat: My comments were not cautionary but informative, an intellectual engagement...thats all!
ABM: thats funny what you say about ol' boy! |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 95
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 14, 2004 - 10:00 pm: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: In your April 12, 2004, you wrote "you all are missing the point...if most of the population reads at a 8th grade reading level and we have both a conservative and liberal government that doesn't take responsibility for their wrongdoings, then what makes you sensible educated black folk believe that most of the population will get the nuances of the book, even read the book...call me a cynic!"
And then you made your point crystal clear with your April 11, 2004 @ 3:06 AM post, and threw in a bit of humor into the stew, too:
"And as for 3., well those uneducated folk who'll try to read the BAB will not get it...neither the sublty, nuances, nor the complexity of a black slaveholder....so these simpletons would say, "wel, if blak pee po enslaved e'chada...why dey all weys cry'n rasizm?""
My point is, you don't know who will get what. And to say that they would not get it, is prejudicial and insulting. It bespeaks of aristicratic arrogance. If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize. Frankly, I don't think I am.
Now, I know that I will appear to be sitting on the fence here, but no one can underestimate the masses. Or the folks steep in academia can re-interpret all the classics they wish and deem what is literature and what isn't from now to when times get better. But the survival of literature, any literature, can only happen when a portion of the masses, the "uneducated" take it to heart.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 188
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 12:18 am: |
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Thumper: If i've written the post and I've said that you've misinterpreted the post OR that I've miscommunicated then you should believe me unless you can either read my mind or you know that I'm a pathological liar...I have no reason to lie...
Let me explain to your what I meant by my quotes and how I understood your post, as well. Then, if you choose, you can tell me if i understood your post as you thought it in your mind...
Before I begin, I think you've taken my quote out of the context of my other posts and the general conversation...It could be that since you were not reading mine as a unit(why would you?), but reading all posts in sequence and in order, you may have missed, or I 'v poorly communicated, many of the points that I've stated prior to and after your post to me...
1."you all are missing the point...if most of the population reads at a 8th grade..."
This first quote pertained to the assumption that Chris and I were talkin about the actual contents(value) of The Known World or historical accuracy(ie whether or not black folk actually enslaved other blacks or that blacks were slaveholders). ChrisH has recently said that he was actually, to some degree, talking about the value of the book. I was not. I was interested in its usage not if it was a good book or not nor who read it or understood it, etc...
In addition, the first quote also pertains to the assumption/belief that when people who are already biased come to information(in this case The Known World)they will use said information to corroborate what they think, ie D'Souza. Other folks, I assume/believe will not get the nuances of slavery, reparations, racism, etc...they could, therefore, logically state as I do in your second quote, "wel, if blak pee po enslaved e'chada...why dey all weys cry'n rasizm?"
As it regards your initial points:
I thought you were talking about censorship, which was demonstated in your phraseology, when you addressed a person's right to read what they want and interpret things as they chose. This I understand as censorship, which neither your quotes of my post nor in my mind have I ever attempted to communicate.
Regarding your characterizations of me being "prejudical and insulting":
Of course, I don't know who will get what. I do know, however, that some people will get it and others will not...this is a fact of human intellect and curiosity, not arrogance. This has to do with level of education, either formal or informal. I'm from Harlem, remember. And many of us, as it is our tradition and I'm sure you can say this about many black communities through africa and the diaspora, read, read, read without the auspices of a university, degree, just interest and curiosity...
I'm not pointing fingers at who will not get the "The Known World"...that would be "prejudical and insulting."
But, if you are calling arrogant and aristocratic the FACT that in this world some folk know more than others then, YES...I am what you say I am.
If anything, I was "insulting" when i used the word "simpletons," which had less to do with the people and more to do with my disgust with folks who may confuse the fact of black slavemasters with black people's responsibility for slavery.
Finally, I must point out, you should talk about the "Man in the Mirror." You stated:
"If I misinterpreted your post, I apologize. Frankly, I don't think I am."
It seems out of place for you to suggest that I'm arrogant when you apologize just to tell me that I don't understand what I meant...Is that not insulting, arrogant, and aristocratic to tell a person what they meant, as you've done?
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Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 96
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 06:01 am: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: you wrote, "It seems out of place for you to suggest that I'm arrogant when you apologize just to tell me that I don't understand what I meant...Is that not insulting, arrogant, and aristocratic to tell a person what they meant, as you've done."
Yes, what I said was insulting. I do apologize for the arrogant and aristocratic statement. It was below the belt. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 189
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 11:16 am: |
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thumper: no problema! tu eres compadre! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 152
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 03:58 pm: |
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STOP THE PRESSES!
I just read where Edward Jones is 53 and wrote this book after getting laid off from his job! Why did you leave these essential details out of your review, Thumper?
Naturally I still want to re read it, but these important facts will definitely cause me to reasses my assesment of the book!
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 286
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, April 16, 2004 - 04:49 pm: |
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I just recently read an article about Jones, too. He was from a poor family, abandoned by their father and raised in Washington DC by a hard-working illiterate mother. He was even homeless for a short time and evetually spent 19 years working at a modest job for a tax company press because he was just glad to have the security of regular employment. TKW was his first book. He was a bachelor who lived alone and plotted the entire novel in his head before writing a single word. The idea for its subject, dated back to his college days, when he read a history book about blacks owning other blacks as slaves. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 194
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 03:51 am: |
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yes, yes, yes....this is all true...if you read is book of short stories, you can see his working class background... |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 97
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, April 17, 2004 - 11:21 am: |
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Hello All,
Chris: what does Jones' personal life have to do with anyone liking or disliking the book? I wrote a review on the book, not Jones' life. If I wrote about Jones' life and him writing the book, my piece would no longer be a review, but an article. Was your dislike of the book colored by what you preceived the author's views to be? |
Pierced
Newbie Poster
Username: Pierced
Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 03:05 pm: |
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Sure sounds that way to me Thumper(eyebrows raised)! |
Thumper
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 03:31 pm: |
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Hello All,
Pierced: Sounds that way to me too. But, I know Chris will straighten it out for us. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 159
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 01:06 pm: |
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Thumper:
I'm glad you asked that question. The answer is yes, yes and yes. As I know that all art is produced by human beings, my perception and like dislike of it is influenced by what I know of that person.
Who could deny they might have felt differently about this book if a white man had written it? How about if David Duke had written it? You would feel differently about it.
I was reading some of Oliver Twist the other day )--I can overlook a lot of Dicken's melodramatic stretches and narrative excesses because I know that his family had fallen on hardtimes and his father sentenced to a workhouse over a 40 pound debt and that he was apprenticed out as a kid
Knowing that Jones is not a snotnose and that he wrote the book during a period of duress/boredom does make me look at it in a different light--
But my final verdict awaits my rereading |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 200
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 02:13 pm: |
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hmmmm...but aren't there limits to knowing someone...Do you really ever know folk? Unless there is a bio or autobio? By the by, I'm not saying knowing someone's background is unnecessary... |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 163
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:40 am: |
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Yukio:
I suppose in the Yukio Universe, we can never really know anyone, since, according to the Existentialists, we never really know ourselves perhaps, like some philosophers posit, we are just dreams, figments of imagination in the head of some sleeping giant(sigh)
But there are things we can know about a person to a fairly certain degree, name, rank serial number, date of birth, education, weight, height, eye color--there are other things we can know from information we can glean from them.
One can even glean some suppositions from the lies a person tells. . . (Yukio ellipses for Existential effect) |
Abm
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 96
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:44 am: |
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Chris,
I've got to give you your props. Because I don't know if I agree with you. But, honestly, you sure are holding it down, playah. |
Abm
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 97
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 11:45 am: |
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"I suppose in the Yukio Universe..."
Priceless! HAHAHA! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 301
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:18 pm: |
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I know nobody cares, but in regard to this subject, I would never be so enamoured of the character Aragorn from "The Return of the King" if I wasn't so in sync with the anti-Bush stand and the philosophical approach to life taken by Viggo Mortensen who plays Aragorn in the movie. So, I for one, am influenced by who does what. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 207
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:26 pm: |
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chrishayden: "Yukio universe.." thats cute...
Now, the variables you've delineated tell us nothing about what the person thinks, values, culture, etc...
Again, I'm not saying background information is not useful, but one of the major mistakes people make is when they try to understand a person's work using the person's bio, gender, race, etc...as resources to interpret the work. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 103
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:29 pm: |
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I wonder does Mortensen know there apparently is this underground cult of Black women who want to give him 'some'. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 309
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 01:39 pm: |
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You mean there's an underground cult of us? I'll steer clear of it. I don't want any competition. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 169
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:15 pm: |
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Yukio:
I do not see how the details of a person' life can be left out in trying to understand the work.
A person's life situation often dictates whethere one writes at all. Would Richard Wright have written Black Boy or Native Son had he been born in the North of well to do black parents? Would he have written at all? Would Alice Walker have written The Color Purple had she been a beautiful, vivacious outgoing Spellman woman? Would E Lynn Harris write what he writes if he wasn't gay? Would James Baldwin have written "Go Tell it on the Mountain" if he had not been a boy preacher in Harlem? We are what we eat, and we are, even those writers of the most outre escapist literature, what we write! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 112
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 02:26 pm: |
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Sorry, Cynique. There are some other sistahs out there trynah push up on dat. I guess they figure if dude can mack an 'foine' Elf chick, who has lived for 1,000’s of years, he must have a pretty strong game.
But fear not, Brave Maiden. For surely Lord Aragorn will take one look at thee then cast aside all others who would seek to pleasure him. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 210
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 03:01 pm: |
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Chrishayden:
You must reread my post:
"Again, I'm not saying background information is not useful, but one of the major mistakes people make is when they try to understand a person's work using the person's bio, gender, race, etc...as resources to interpret the work."
Consider if you were to interview these same writers, they probably would have said, Yes...my background has something to do with my fiction, but don't read too much of my background into the story or you will not get it....
Toni Morrison, as well as others, have said that they let their characters speak for themselves, so that the author doesn't misrepresent the character's voice...this is what I'm talkin about...
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