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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1658
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 12:39 pm: | 
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http://angiebook.blogspot.com/2005/11/question-do-you-find-this-image.html
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Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 01:18 pm: |
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Interesting cover Chris. I posted my comments on the blog. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1663
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 01:49 pm: |
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It is a bit disturbing. I count Paul as one of my poetic inspirations.
I'm wondering, what is the point? Are you that desperate for sales?
Paul's attitude toward black people has been somewhat ambivilent over the years.
Here is more on the controversy
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2005/11/21/BL2005112100467.htm l
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Steve_s
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Steve_s
Post Number: 198
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 02:06 pm: |
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Gimme a break, that ain't controversial.
Branford Marsalis did the watermelon seed thang on the cover of his album, The Dark Keys (ooh, get it? The "dark keys"?
Tempest in a teapot. Hey, listen up man *big-@ass smile.* I went to the same exact university as Paul Beatty, albeit at a time when Howard Zinn was teaching history, Willam Carroll (Constantine's Sword) was the Catholic chaplain, etc.
So I know the exact sculpture in Marsh Plaza that Beatty mentions in "The White Boy Shuffle." MLK received his doctor of divinity at that school (long before Tipper Gore and Hadassah Lieberman walked the halls of CLA -- that's the College of Liberal Arts).
That ain't controversial. Can't anybody raise the level of the discourse on this MF????
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B000002BRL/qid=1133377390/sr=2-1/r ef=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-2485137-2572612?v=glance&s=music
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1665
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 02:20 pm: |
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All:
Ah, what would a day be like without our very own Mantan Moreland skinnin' and grinnin' case any white folks is around.
Steve:
Go ahead, big man. Throw down. Show us how to do it.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3085
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 03:09 pm: |
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Off the mark, as usual. Steve is white. Now you really have some grist for your mill, Chrishayden |
Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 788
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 03:14 pm: |
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Steve, you went to BU? *Shudder* I still have post traumatic stress disorder from my brief experience there LOL.
On topic: I am not offended by the cover. I'm more offended that people are offended to the point of canceling appearances by Beatty. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1667
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 03:44 pm: |
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Cynique:
Thanks. That was mighty black of you.
Steve:
Your opinion is worthless.
Put that in your pipe and smoke it. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1668
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 03:45 pm: |
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Steve:
Still waiting for some controversy. Why don't you reproduce some of your blogs from the Aryan Nations site? |
Steve_s
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Steve_s
Post Number: 199
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 03:47 pm: |
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Thank you, Yvette, I'm sorry you had a bad time there, mine was not much better, however, I ain't the frat boy in Beatty's novel and I'm NOT responsible for your bad experience there. Yes, I knew Joe Louis's son Joe Louis Barrow and was best friends with Wendell Haley Bell Cox (the president of the student union in his junior year whose dentist father co-owned WHBC, Detroit's largest black market radio station during the Motown era).
And btw, snakegirl is not a "thing," although I don't agree with half of what she says, she was very sweet to me (as is my sister Cynique, always).
PS I enjoyed Chris's book report on Zulu as a linguistic group, but come on, even Paul Beatty recognizes Zulu as a right-wing political entity. Mongosuthu Buthelezei = My mofo gotta be lazy (or some such thing). |
Soul_sister
Regular Poster
Username: Soul_sister
Post Number: 40
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:38 am: |
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WOW -- what happens when you miss a day or so - -what a great conversation - I am reading Dance in the Dark and Steppin and Fetchit right now for review.
Learning about the lives of these men and women who were forced to degrade themselves for artsake is something considering what else was going on all over the world with uplift and repositioning the Negroes place in the world during the progressive era 1900-1920ish
As for the cover - it is slightly disturbing from a historians/critical race perspective - however, the crap that is blasting on the airwaves and out of the cars and headphones of the "now" culture is far more vile. This cover will spark conversation and stimulate conscious thought among the literate -- the others will think us too deep - but someone has to be.
ps -- I suppose as people over 75 pass away -- the cultural red flags will either fade and disappear from reactionary consciousness or they will remain totems where "WE" are suppose to feel and respond and just don't remember -- WHY -- and what was/is all the hubbub was about. Im all for totems, confederate flag, ministrels, the n-word and errything else - like other "minorities" -- NEVER FORGET -I'll forgive cause Im trying to get to heaven but I can never FORGET.
pardon the preaching -- peace |
Steve_s
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Steve_s
Post Number: 201
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:30 pm: |
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I'd like to add one thing if I might. Adam Mansbach's satire of race relations, "Angry Black White Boy," is blurbed by: Tricia Rose, Percival Everett, Robert G. O'Meally, Michael Eric Dyson, et al.
A few months ago, Thumper asked me for my opinion, so I read the book and posted my thoughts, noting the obvious similarities to Paul Beatty's first novel, and then I never heard another word from Thumper or anyone else.
I recently read "Fleet Walker's Divided Heart" by David Zang, a real biography of a 19th century black baseball player which Mansbach weaves into his novel. I posted about it 2 days ago, and Chris commented that it sounded like an Oprah cooking book. That's absurd. It's anything but that, it's a remarkably well-documented and compelling black biography.
Chris can't admit that he read Mansbach's book based on the description of someone like me, so instead, he calls me a member of the Aryan Nations, which is a humorous reference to the first paragraph of Adam Mansbach's novel, in which the main character describes the derivation of the term "wigger" (a term which is not of my generation).
In the first paragraph, Mansbach's main character says: "I'm . . . a white [n-word] in the universe, to paraphrase both LeRoi Jones . . . and the Aryan Nations vis-a-vis yours truly, with whom I share nothing but a low melanin count . . ."
So, because I know for instance that Branford Marsalis talked on the Tonight Show about being stopped for DWB while driving across Lake Ponchartrain, and because Bran had the band play "So What?" to introduce Jay's guest, then Presidential-candidate Bob Dole, Chis calls me a member of the Aryan Nations. It's an archaic bonding ritual in certain circles of generations long ago. But more importantly, he disparages an excellent biography of an African American ballplayer. Last weekend Tim Russert had a roundtable discussion with major league managers: Willie Randoph, Joe Torre, Lou Pinella, et al, and one of the things they discussed was the decline of black ballplayers and the increase of Latino ballplayers in the major leagues.
Anyway, I indavertently keep insulting Yvette, for which I again apologize. |
Crystal
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Crystal
Post Number: 250
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:34 pm: |
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That cover does not disturb me at all. I agree with Yvette - I’m more disturbed that the national media, read: white folks, are once again telling the world that we black folks should be ashamed of who we are. I truly don’t understand WHY I should be ashamed of enjoying watermelon. Just because white folks make fun of it? WHO CARES! Hell, they like watermelon too. Or is it a, “how dare they make fun of us making fun of them” kind of thing. We all know those types don’t like it when we turn the mirror back on them.
Anyway, the book sounds interesting and I’ll probably read it. Maybe I should make a point of letting white folks see me with it so they’ll know I’m not ashamed.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1025
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:40 pm: |
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not offended by i can understand why others would be... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3090
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 02:11 pm: |
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Water melon has gotten a bad rap. A perfectly innocent delicacy has become a no-no in the realm of race, and it along with the phrase "you people" when referring to black folks and the title "boy" and when referring to a black man have taken on a life of their own. They certainly make a case for the idea that words and images pack a powerful punch. As for the cover, to me it is intriguing. It makes you think, and as a marketing ploy it certainly catches the eye of a potential buyer. Do I find it offensive? Not really, because there are no bucking eyes and wooly hair configured around the watermelon rind. Do I find it sly? Yes. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1671
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 02:21 pm: |
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Steve_s:
What you don't know about Zulu is legion.
By the way, I got a little number for you.
How about a book on White Humor with a picture on the cover of a sheep with a dreamy, sexually satiated expression.
Funny huh? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 03:33 pm: |
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Wassa mattah Chrissy? Mad cuz other posters thought for themselves and didn't get in lock step with you? Maybe next time, big fella. |
Snakegirl
Regular Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 44
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 03:58 pm: |
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Hi Crystal 
I think that because watermelon is not indigenous to North America
...because the black slaves brought the seeds here from Africa
that this one fruit has always been "racialized".
It's silly. Blacks eat more ORANGES, apples and Bananas than anything.
I almost want to cry thinking about the Black people in this country and how they SO LOVED WATERMELON...because it was all they had left of their own true homeland. The original slaves probably looked at the beauty of a watermelon...got homesick...and devoured it for dear life!
And they weren't allowed to have their language, weren't allowed their names.....and when they ate watermelon.....they were made fun of for it---often by their own people!
I'm with Paul Beatty.
I'm with Paul Beatty.
We can't disrespect our ancestors by being ASHAMED.
We have no right to be ashamed.
It just shows how Whites sought to destroy ANYTHING that was connected to us.
But notice....THEY LOVE TO EAT OUR WATERMELON just as much as we do!
Still...I knew this black lady in Virginia who would not eat fried chicken or watermelon
IN PUBLIC.
She was my Auntie. 
But me and Nana would sit right there in the grass in the sun and eat us a whole basket of fried chicken and watermelon.
And we'd be listening to Nana's Martha Reeves and the Vandellas 45s or Richard Pryor's comedy albums.
That's how I learned to call White women "bitches"----because Richard Pryor said that's their name. I remember that in English. He said---'that's dem bitches name!" I kid you not.
Me and Nana would be hanging clothes on the line (I used to make African Tiki dolls out of her wooden clothes pins) and get done and have us some watermelon....and my Auntie (Nana's sister) would say...."yall niggas is embarrass'n me--whyn't yall come in de house 'n eat them thangs."
My Nana Glodine looked at her like she was crazy. She said to my Auntie, "Heffa--you take yo tail on in de house 'n eat your dixie peach for all I care--me 'n diss baby here is having watermelon. We ain't ax yo permission, heffa. And we gone stay in the sun long as we wants to."
I loved me some Nana Glodine. I miss her so much....and having a slice of watermelon and watching Young and the Restless with her.
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Renata
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 236
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 05:32 pm: |
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LOL
Snakegirl, your grandmother sounds like a fun and wonderful person, and full of wisdom.
And I picked that up just from that little bit you posted about her. |
Steve_s
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Steve_s
Post Number: 202
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 05:34 pm: |
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Dear Mr. Hayden, Sorry to have to inform you that I'm not interested at the present time in your solicitation of a circle-jerk with your 60-year-old son Christopher.
I encourage you to keep trying, as this Web site offers opportunites for writers in the area of "Urban slang" greeting cards!
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Yvettep
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 789
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 11:49 pm: |
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Anyway, I indavertently keep insulting Yvette, for which I again apologize.
Maybe I just can't recognize an insult, but I do not take issue w/anything you said--so no apologies needed!
How about a book on White Humor with a picture on the cover of a sheep with a dreamy, sexually satiated expression.
Such a book might be offensive to some (although I cannot say how one would recognize a sexually satiated sheep-lol!) But that is not what Beatty did w/this book. A book on White "redneck" humor w/just a sheep on the cover would perhaps be (to use Cynique's excellent word choice) sly. A dramatically lit watermellon rind in the shape of a smile for a book on Black racial humor is sly.
Now having said all this, I sure hope that this volume is a good one. I am offended when I fall for a clever buzz marketing campaign, or a catchy title or cover, or someone's past reputation to waste my time on a book that is poorly written, uninteresting, etc. Offended-and p'ed off! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1676
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 11:41 am: |
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Steve_s (and your lapdog Cynique):
Got another one fer ya:
Definition of virgin:
A white Appalachian girl who can run faster than her daddy!
I ain't offended. It must be funny! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3098
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 12:43 pm: |
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Ho Hum. Look who has crawled back to the board, resorting to desperate attempts at being funny because he have nothing of substance to say. Give it up, chrishayden. You have been exposed as being a pathetic, petulant definition for the word "obnoxious". Now get lost before they perfect a vaccine to eliminate you. EWE. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 442
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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Hello All,
Steve wrote: "A few months ago, Thumper asked me for my opinion, so I read the book and posted my thoughts, noting the obvious similarities to Paul Beatty's first novel, and then I never heard another word from Thumper or anyone else."
My response: You are right Steve, My head has been cemented to electronic books for the past couple of months. I apologize.
On the topic of the cover of Hokum: I am not offended by it. Truthfully, I have the book and didn't really notice the cover at all. I would like to point out a few things: 1.) How do we know that Beatty picked out the cover? Frankly, from having read Beatty's previous works, it screams of Beatty's humor and insight. 2.) Why do we still have white people on the brain? Who cares how they think of us? Truthfully, I have to wonder, if it wasn't for this controversy, how many of them would have gotten the significance of the cover without the media bringing it to them. |
Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 80
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 01:52 pm: |
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I think the image of the smiling watermelon, to borrow Cynique's word, is sly. I also think it's harmless. As Soul_sister said in her post, " ... the crap that is blasting on the airwaves and out of the cars and headphones of the "now" culture is far more vile."
We have young black men being paid handsomely to glorify criminal behavior through music and film. Black folks are being shot dead by other black folks each and every day. Over 60 percent of black children in city schools are posting test scores that show they are reading below the basic skill level. Our response?
Al Sharpton is preparing to star in a sitcom. Jesse Jackson? His biggest splash comes from defending Eagles receiver Terrell Owens's right to make an ass of himself by denegrating his co-workers and employers on national television. Here in Philadelphia, the head of our local NAACP writes a column lambasting Eagles quarterback Donovan McNabb for not running with the football.
We are in a time of crisis. And we should be far more concerned with the dearth of black leadership in a time of crisis than with the image of a watermelon rind on a book. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 03:59 am: |
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hmmm...I agree we need self-evaluation and we need a better agenda for the present and future. I think it starts in the home, but I'm no Bill Cosby. I think many parents have poor parenting skills, but I think it is a question of not knowing better parenting rather than negligence...I also think the black community is a myth...where is it? |
Snakegirl
Regular Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 47
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 04:09 am: |
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There used to be a Black community, Yukio. It's not a myth. Desegregation destroyed it.
Also, along with bad parenting from people who weren't parented themselves, is the fact that mostly lone females are the ones doing all the parenting. That makes it doubly worse.
I believe that black people are a victim of the fact that....if you don't stand for anything, you fall for everyhing.
There's no standards. So there's no way to connect the dots for our people.
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Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 81
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 12:16 pm: |
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Snakegirl -
Bingo ... I think a great illustration of desegregation destroying the black sense of community is Tempest Rising, by Diane McKinney Whetstone, which traced the rise and fall of a business within the context of blacks being "allowed" to spend their money in white establishments that they'd previously been barred from.
I also agree with you when you say that there are no standards. Say what you will about the black church, or the church in general, for that matter. At least when there was a spiritual element to the black community, there were standards. Now many churches are selling out to secular and/or political interests (see Black Clergy of Philadelphia - which took $4 million from republican senators in exchange for pulpit endorsements). Or worse, they're turned inward, and those on the outside are left to look to pop culture for identity. The sad thing is, we don't realize that the faces behind 50 Cent and the like look nothing like us, and could care less what happens to this and subsequent generations of black children because of the poisonous messages they are feeding them.
Even more true is your observation that women are doing it alone. Man, I have nothing but love for my mom. She was and is a great example of hard work and perseverance. I was fortunate to have my father in the house until my parents divorced when I was 14. But after that, it was pretty much mom.
I don't care how great a mom is, though. Kids need positive examples of black maleness that they can see, hear and touch. They need fathers. When kids don't have them, it's damaging, because they are left to look to pop culture to tell them what black manhood is. And pop culture is a lie.
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Sisg
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 225
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 02:58 pm: |
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So true. I was riding the train today, listening to one 12-13 year old male, rap, curse and pretty much diss black females...and to tell you the truth, i was not surprised...it wasn't until i heard the voice of a young boy, probably about 6 or 7 years old, spit out a rap, just as damaging. First, I wondered why they weren't in school, and then secondly, where were the parents? But, then i heard the young one say, "my mom is at work, we can go to my house...". It is sad, really sad what is taking place amongst our youth, the lack of respect and love for our woman, and the loss of our men. If we dont' do something soon...will our race be lost? |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 04:42 pm: |
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Snakegirl and Solomon Jones:
If there used to be a black community, then presently it is a myth.
You are certainly right, black women are often left alone.
I would slightly disagree with the argument that desegregation destroyed the black community...that is part of it. Here's more:
The other parts include the desire for many of the middle class, not all Cynique, but many to disassociate themselves from the poorer classes. If the past community was more concerned about their poorer brethren, then flight would not have been at the top of their list. This, of course, doesn't mean that folk need to be in the hood to be conscious about black people...but it does state that there should have been some recognition concerning the importance of those institutions that were there.
In addition, and again Cynique I'm not saying all, the past black community was and is always
been problematic because of the class divisions. In fact, if we use the church, as brother SolomonJones does, we can see how black churches were organized along class lines. And in some cases, New York City for example, they were organized by class and national lines, ie the Caribbean population. All of this is prior to desegregation, and one can see these factors, in the case of the former, as early as the 1880s, in the case of the latter, 1910s and 1920s.
Finally, as late as the 1880s and 1890s, the early southern uplift programs, have degraded black women, especially unmarried mothers. This has been a bourgeois-Christian criticizism of these women, not only by men but especially middle class black women. Again, these factors are all prior to desegregation. It seems to me that if we are going to actualize a black community, it should not look like those of the past! They must be based in a more democractic value system instead of a bourgeois, elitist value system. Thus, part of this pertains to our work within our neigborhoods, which is not the same as a community, and how we address instructural and political problems...I dare say that much of this has been also related to black men's and women's restriction to low waged labor, the racism of unionism, deindustrialization, capital mobility, out-sourcing, etc.... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3109
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 07, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
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LOL. Yukio, why are you interjecting comments for me, especially since I confess to being a member of the black middleclass who tend to disassociate themselves from the underclasses. You know my favorite mantra. The poor, - not all, Yukio, handicap themselves because too many of them breed indiscriminately. I feel that these woman, who invaribly start out as unwed teenage mothers, have a bunch of kids by different absentee fathers and are their own worst enemy. I still maintain that these females have the choice to not keep repeating this pattern and perpetuating it from generation to generation Everybody makes mistakes but to continue not practicing birth control is just being irresponsible. And my other old standby argument to reinforce this contention is that 95 percent of young black males in prison are the products of fatherless childhoods. So I admit to being a part of the problem instead of part of the solution. But do-gooders have been trying for years without success to turn the negative "ghetto" lifestyle around. And if we are to believe what rappers tell us, their lyrics about bling-bling, bitches, pimps, 'hos, guns, murder, and baby's mamas are a reflection of this inner-city culture. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1680
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:17 pm: |
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Cynique:
All the poor do not breed indiscriminately. All the poor are not on welfare. There are two family households with both parents working that are poor.
As a woman you should know that many poor are women who were married and lost their husbands through sickness, desertion or death.
I guess they are just some lousy broads because life hammered them into the ground. Thank you. I will remember to spit on the next woman who runs up to me with a black eye and a baby in a blanket and one by the hand, fleeing an abusive husband into the night with nothing--you have to learn how to absorb a few beatings and stompings in this life.
And how fitting you say EWE--a female sheep.
I am inside your head, gal! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3110
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:52 pm: |
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I didn't say all of the poor breed indiscriminately, chrishayden. And I make no apologies for what I said. If it offends you, I am glad. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 1682
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:56 pm: |
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It does not offend me, madam that you have once again dragged the honorable name of Cynique through the mud with another of your ill considered poorly thought out bumblingly executed positons. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3112
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:12 pm: |
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Snort. Surely you are not under the impression that the opinion of a muddled, blubbering, apologist like you matters to me. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3113
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 05:20 pm: |
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So much for that confrontation. Once again the insufferable chrishayden has demonstrated the one-sided mentality that pouts at the idea of anybody daring to express a view that he considers blasphemous. He cannot fathom the idea of someone saying what he considers unsayable. And to do damage control, he wraps himself in the mantle of emotionalism and attempts to rebut ideas that weren't even expressed. Many factors contribute to complicated social problems but chrishayden believes he has a monopoly on the truth, totally unaware of how myopic his tunnel vision is. Nevertheless I will thank the ol guy for giving me yet another chance to rag on him. heh-heh-heh. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 11:10 pm: |
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LoL..sorry, cynique...i know ya enuff not to generalize about ya peeps! Lol! |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 447
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 08:35 am: |
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Hello All,
I have to say that I agree wtih Cynique on this one. Yes, there are a lot of mothers "raising" their children alone, but for the majority of them, hey, its their own fault. When its all said and done, they picked the men or boys, they chose to have babies with. It's not fair, but hey, that's the way the world turns. And while many of us who have come from homes where the mother was the sole parent, I'm going to say that they don't make those types of strong women anymore. We are not raising strong women or men anymore. The girls are either being raised to be hoochie mamas or Barbie's black friend Skipper. I know many of you would deny it, but I done seen it. While many of us are breaking our necks to give our children what we believe we did not have when we were children, our children are pretty much left to raising themselves. As far as I can see today's black woman has fallen into two categories: those that follow Oprah, and those that don't give a damn about Oprah. What a mess!
Black men: I don't know what to say about us. I can't figure out if we are lost or simply confused. We'll beat on our chest about being black men and yet most of us still got "white man approval" at the back of our mind. "White man approval" dictates where we work, what opinions we have, what type of white woman we sleep with, etc. all because our self esteem is built on the premise of seeking the approval of the white man. Sounds half ass backwards to me. My father, my uncles, those were black men who truly did not care what any white man thought of them or how they lived their lives. That's the point many of us are missing.
All this to tie into the desegregation and the ruination of the black community is that the above mentioned mentality had always existed in the black community. The only reason we had black communities back in the day was by force. Many cities and towns in the US forced blacks to live in one section of town only, no matter the financial status. Only a few, a rare few rich black folk did not live in the black belt of a town or city. So there were all of the services that black folks had provided by other black folks because white people did not want to mix ANYTHING: graveyards, streets, etc. So, if you were a black doctor, he could only treat black patients. If there was a black undertaker, he could only bury black people. So the black community, that some of us fondly remembers, was generate by force and racism. And the very second that the force was removed, the black community disappeared. Because that black doctor didn't want to treat black patients, he wanted to treat white people. That middle class family didn't want to live in The Bottom, they wanted to live on the Hill and that's where they went. Because the white man's ice is colder than ours. *Laughing* How ironic it is: The only reason that we had a black community was because white people forced us to have one, forced us to live among each other, patronize each other businesses. How messed up is that!!? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3115
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 01:54 pm: |
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Everybody knows that what you say is true, Thumper, but ostriches like chrishayden won't take their heads out of the sand. |
Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 82
Registered: 02-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 05:37 pm: |
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Thumper -
Your observation that the only reason the black community existed was by force proves my point. Desegregation allowed us to do what we wanted to do all along -- escape each other.
Yukio makes an excellent point when she says that the black church was separated along class lines. I would argue that in some cases, our institutions, including churches, fraternities and sororities, were divided along color lines as well (black, brown, beige and yellow). And so Thumper, your point is right on. We never really wanted to be forced together. But I would take it one step further and say that we never wanted to be together because we'd already been driven apart by slavery. Our attempts to separate from each other along class and color lines are simply the remnants of slavery. Tired of being discriminated against because of our blackness, we looked for someone else to discriminate against. The only ones we could find were each other.
The thing that is simultaneously hilarious and sad to me is the ridiculousness of the black bourgeoisie. As I rise from the very bottom of the socio-economic barrell, I get to mingle with a lot of people. I've spent time with owners of sports teams, partners in law firms, bank presidents, etc. And while they can be racist (sometimes without even knowing it), white folks with money are generally pretty cool. But it never ceases to amaze me how shallow and judgmental the black middle class can be. Brother get a light-skinned (black, Hispanic or white) woman and a Benz and he suddenly he's arrived. And with that arrival, he begins to look down his nose at other black folks.
True story: I was at a garden party a few summers ago and had the occassion to talk with a black former judge who was running for Congress against the late Tom Foglietta, because Foglietta's district had been realigned and was now mostly black. The only reason the judge believed he had a chance in hell (although he didn't) was because he was black. And yet this fool had the nerve to sit there and tell me that black heritage was not his heritage. His only heritage was that of his immediate family.
The point I'm making is that black folks are so consumed with trying to prove that we are better than other black people that we are literally destroying our own communities. And we've been doing it for a long, long time.
Certainly, there are some things we need to take from the past -- such as institutions like churches that actually serve the communities around them. But there are some other things (the brown paper bag test comes to mind) that we should leave behind. And going forward, we need to realize that no matter how m,uch money we have, no matter what shade of brown we are, no matter how tight we hold our booties when we walk, we're still black at the end of the day.
Cynique, while you're right about unwed mothers who repeatedly make the same mistakes, how many of us have not repeatedly made some mistake in life? What I'm saying is, we can't keep pointing fingers at people and saying their predicaments are their own fault. At some point, if we want to see things change, we have to reach out and show our people the right way to do things. Because if we're not part of the solution, we're part of the problem. |
Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1045
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 06:03 pm: |
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SolomonJones:
I am actually a he, btw...lol! I am a man, and Yukio is a male Japanese name. Also, I agree that class and color schisms stem from slavery, but I would also argue that inequality is a normal phenomena, sometime it is socalled race, blood, culture, nationality, tribe, etc...but it is ubiquitous.
Right, I was trying to make that point of keeping but discarding some things from the past. I would add that whites can afford to be "cool" because they have the power. The very self-hate among blacks--working class or middle class--is a component of being dominated. |
Blklitreader
First Time Poster
Username: Blklitreader
Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 07:48 pm: |
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Thumper wrote:
As far as I can see today's black woman has fallen into two categories: those that follow Oprah, and those that don't give a damn about Oprah. What a mess!
ROFL That's funny. But, I do agree.
Solomonjones wrote:
Cynique, while you're right about unwed mothers who repeatedly make the same mistakes, how many of us have not repeatedly made some mistake in life? What I'm saying is, we can't keep pointing fingers at people and saying their predicaments are their own fault. At some point, if we want to see things change, we have to reach out and show our people the right way to do things.
If I keep making the same mistake over and over then that is my fault. If I unable to learn from those mistakes, and make different choices, then how is it that anyone else's fault but my own? What usually happens is when you try to tell someone, hey, here's a different way, you don't have to keep repeating the same mistake over and over, if they don't think they are making a mistake, then they aren't interested in what you have to say or your solutions. But I agree with you on the other things you wrote.
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Snakegirl
Regular Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 48
Registered: 05-2005
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 08:03 pm: |
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Thumper is TOTALLY right.
Solomon Jones is also TOTALLY right.
_____
The larger fact is this...
"babies" don't judge and they love you unconditionally.
Don't care if you're ugly; don't care if you're illiterate---they are HELPLESS and need you.
For millions of black girls who are not being raised and not being loved......
....having a "baby" is a kind of Desperation Grab. An attempt at finding unconditional love and acceptance---instant gratification.
The bitterness only sets in after the girl realizes that it's NOT what she imagined it would be.
And thus the cycle of depression and Neglect continues.
We really have to be compassionate enough to understand that just having "the sound" of a baby in the same room----is the only sound, intimacy and affection that many black girls will ever know.
No one cares for them---and most black women live in neighborhoods where they are UNPROTECTED, not listened to and told only negative things about themselves.
You see the women who make their SON their man.
Our female half is severely hated and limited in "social representation". And not even OPRAH can save them from that.
Last Note: For the first time in 35 years, BLACK FEMALES were the least impregnated women in this country.
White Teen Girls and Latina Teen Girls were BOTH unwed teen mothers by rates of 30% higher than Black Teen Girls.
Black Female Teen Pregnancy is the LOWEST in the country as of 2001.
Cynique, give credit where credit is due.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3116
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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Listen, folks, first of all, as the oldest poster on this board, I say what I say because over the years I've become disillusioned with the situation. Everything any of you have said, I've heard before. Over and over. But it's just so much talk. Things get a little better for a minute and then they regress. So I am passsed the stage of offering solutions, I'm just making an observation, - an observation that I referred to as being just one facet of a many-sided problem. And Kola when it come to statistics, keep in mind that lower percentages do not translate into significant base numbers. And why are we always worried about what whites and hispancis are doing, anyway? They are not our concern. Also keep in mind that I admitted that I may very well be a part of the problem instead of part of the solution and I acknowledge that without guilt. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3117
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
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BTW, Solomon Jones, as a vocal critic of Rap music, and all of its negative ramifications, what do you suggest the phony black middleclass do to stifle this problem????? Also, have any of you taken into consideration how the underclasses blow off the middle class? And it's not as if the ghettoites don't embrace superficiality. Their false sense of values is what spawned the bling-bling culture. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3118
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |
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I'd be remiss if I didn't offer a foot note adding my agreement to certain points made. Slavery is a demon that this nation has never exorcised. America has just sprinkled a little holy water on its black stepchildren from time to time but the debasement of human bondage continues to make its crippling presence felt in the psyche of the black mind and in the heart of the black community. |
Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 83
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 12:00 pm: |
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Snakegirl -
I agree with you on young girls having babies in search of love. I had a young girl tell me that she wanted a baby for that exact reason. She wanted someone who would love her no matter what. I was lost at that point myself, and while I had a daughter, she lived thousands of miles away. I knew about providing financially, but I knew nothing about real parenting, so I couldn't share anything with her about the realities of sleepless nights, butt-wiping and emotional overload that comes with having kids.
But experience has taught me a lot. In addition to my two children with my wife, that daughter that I mentioned is now 13 and lives walking distance from me. At this point in her life, I see her almost every day. The one thing I make a conscious effort to do (other being intimately involved in her school life) is hug her every day. I want my daughters to know that their value comes not from what they look like, but from who they are on the inside. And I want them to know that even if no other man loves them, I do. That way they don't have to seek a man's love in unhealthy ways. The other thing I do with my teenager is tell her in graphic and honest ways about the things boys will tell her to get what they want, and the things they'll say about her if she allows them to use her. If she makes mistakes -- and like all of us, she will -- it won't be because Daddy was not honest with her. And when she makes those mistakes, guess what? I'll love her anyway.
So Cynique, that's what the black middle class has to do. We have to step into some child's life and be honest with them. If you don't have your own children or grandchildren, mentor somebody. Share the experience that comes with growing old. Share with them alternatives to the negative bling bling messages of Hip Hop culture. Tell them about your mistakes. Tell them what you did to get to where you are. Looking down our noses at people does nothing to help either us or them. But stepping in and doing something does.
Which brings me to Blklitreader. I didn't say we should tell people how to do things the right way. I said we should show them how to do things the right way. There's a huge difference. Adults are just like children. We don't want to hear what you say. We want to see what you do. Only then can we make an honest assessment of who you are and decide whether or not to follow you.
I'm far from perfect. Most of what I've learned has come from making mistakes -- sometimes repeatedly. And I don't hold myself out as some kind of gold standard. But I'm trying. And that's all I expect from my people. To try. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3119
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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I don't look down my nose at anyone, Solomonjones. I live and let live. My days of trying to save the world are over. I am no longer involved except within the confines of my family circle. And as I said before, it's presumptuous to think that members of the underclasses are just sitting around waiting to hear what advice middle classes people have to offer. The inner city crowd are not interested in the messages of people who have their best interest at heart. They pursue what they want, not what they need. The media is their mentor.
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Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 84
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 08:10 pm: |
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Cynique -
I am going to take my own advice and not argue with a sista. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3120
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 08:51 pm: |
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LOL. I wasn't aware that we were arguing, babe. I just hope that my confidence in your sincerity is justified, and that you are taking up my slack and practicing what you preach. |
Blklitreader
Newbie Poster
Username: Blklitreader
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 02:39 am: |
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Solomonjones wrote:
Which brings me to Blklitreader. I didn't say we should tell people how to do things the right way. I said we should show them how to do things the right way. There's a huge difference. Adults are just like children. We don't want to hear what you say. We want to see what you do. Only then can we make an honest assessment of who you are and decide whether or not to follow you.
And, yes I know you didn't say that and I didn't say you say that either. But, if I tell someone to do something, either it's a suggestion, based on their circumstances, or something in which I have done myself, which resulted me in having different results. If I think having 3 children by 3 men/women isn't a good thing then I won't have 3 children by 3 different men, so another person who does, can see by what I have done (or not done, i.e., have 3 children by 3 different men/women). Thus, I am showing them and not just telling them. |
Solomonjones
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 85
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 02:18 pm: |
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Cynique -
You know I love ya. And I respect your position. I think my earnestness comes from my experience with being poor and repeatedly making mistakes that worsened my already bad condition. I can empathize with unwed mothers. And I can sympathize with drug addicts and the homeless because I've been there.
As far as practicing what I preach, I do what I can. I took an unemployed brother to a job interview last week because I know what it's like to be umemployed. Although I've never done a bid in prison, I go to prisons and reform schools all the time because those brothers could just as easily be me. I sit on the board of a nonprofit dealing with homeless issues because I've been there. I'm going to a shelter for drug addicted men tomorrow night because one of my former counselors asked me to. If that's practicing what I preach, so be it. Wish I could do more.
Blklitreader, your point is well taken. There is, however, a difference in being an active example and being a passive one.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 3121
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 10:25 pm: |
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You are a compassionate person, Solomonjones, and I certainly admire you for empathizing with the downtrodden and lending a hand to help them. Forgive me for being impatient with the less fortunate who didn't turn out as well as you did - for whatever reasons. As for the much-maligned black middleclass, they do leave something to be desired. Even so, a lot of them also started out poor, but at some point in their lives made the decisions that enabled them to improve their circumstances. C'est La Vie.
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Snakegirl
Regular Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 49
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 11:00 pm: |
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Cynique, I actually DO understand where you're coming from and I don't disagree with you. I just think for those of us who are much younger and still raising kids--we have to keep fighting and working on these issues. But when I remove "emotionalism"--I can understand your stance.
Solomon,
I also...can sympathize and "empathize" with people who have no hope.
Who have no direction and were never told they were worth anything or that they deserve anything.
I find that to be an overly-common characteristic of people in the INNER CITY. A lot of them are not even raised, and especially the females never become fully developed as human beings----and if a girl isn't fully developed as "a person"; there's a good chance that she won't be a good mother. Thereby producing more wayward children.
And the thing is...they're all innocent.
I know what you're saying.
On the flip side...I also sometimes find myself detesting these kind of people and full of rage at them, because you would just assume that there must be a "fight back" mechanism in all human beings--and there isn't.
It's only now that I've passed 35 that I realize that there really are people who are "dumb" in the world and people who wait every moment to be told....by the t.v., the preacher, the dealer on the corner....what to do and think.
Many others, who aren't dumb in the least--are just plain without direction. They dont' know what TO DO. And many of these people have never really been LOVED (or felt that they were), and without that feeling--it's hard for a human to compete successfully with those who have.
All of that is before you add "color".
Poor disadvantaged WHITES and latinos...always come out better than poor disadvantaged BLACKS for some reason.
BTW, Solomon Jones.
To hear a black man say that we should give up the "color hierarchy" and be against the brown paper bag rules (it's the brown manila envelope in Africa)---to hear a black man say that in 2005 America really made my day and gave me hope.
I am raising two very wonderful black sons, and although I am no longer in a romantic relationship with their father---he is the most wonderful black man and best father you could imagine. He gives me and the boys constant leadership. He teaches our chocolate sons to place value, love and respect on their beautiful flesh...as well as all other humans....and he really really teaches them to respect women and girls--to see them as "humans", not babes.
I don't have to do anything but cook, fix their lunches, help with homework and give them affection!
And just want SO MUCH for other black women to have this kind of black man (my Black American dad was like that, too--but he is very pessimistic about the future of black people in this country and he's very bitter, because he was a 1960's Black Power guy).
So it's refreshing to hear you say that. There's more of us.
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Yukio
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 12:01 am: |
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hmmmm....I agree with Snakegirl. Lots of folk jus don't know what to do...this is what is missing in Cosby venomous attack! |
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