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Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 108
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 09:28 am: | 
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Hello Everyone,
In today's publishing world, technology makes it very east for an author to self-publish or publish using a low-cost sudsidy or print on demand publisher. Nowadays it seems like everyone has a book to promote. Of course there are some great books out there and some not so great ones. On the plus side, this gives readers (especially African-Americans) more book choices than years ago. It also gives some unknown talent a chance to get discovered and possibly move to a mainstream audience. On the negative side, we get more poorly-written and unedited books because they forego the traditional process and a marketplace that is so crowded that it's almost impossible to decide which book to read next.
With more and more self-publishers and more subsidy presses popping up, it would appear that this phenomenon is here to stay. Do you feel this is true? If so, is it good for the marketplace?
I look forward to reading your comments. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2978
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 12:30 pm: |
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Writing is the only profession where all a person has to do to qualify as an author is to put some words down on paper and then have them printed up in book form. Writing a book is also the ultimate ego-trip because the motivation for embarking on this endeavor is the assumption that great numbers of people will be interested in reading what a self-styled author has to say; and most of the time this assumption turns out to be a delusion. That's because it's hard to be original inasmuch as what constitutes a plot is not original. It's the same old set of formulas. This is the point where skill and talent separate the wheat from the chaff, where imagination and ability to make the old seem new turns words into magic, and a publication into a book. Talent and skill are not that common among "voluntary novelists", so finding a noteworthy book in the plethora of self-published ones is like searching for a needle in a haystack. The upside of this self-publishing frenzy is that there's something out there for all tastes and anything that inspires a person to take up the habit of reading is a good thing. IMO. |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 109
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 12:48 pm: |
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Interesting post Cynique. I love what you had to say about the ultimate ego trip and delusion.
How do distinguish voluntary novelists from involuntary novelists? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2981
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 01:05 pm: |
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Well, involuntary novelists are critically-acclaimed novelists. Voluntary novelists are self-proclaimed ones. I guess... LOL. |
Snakegirl
Regular Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 37
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 03:18 pm: |
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Fiction and poetry writing can only truly be gaged by how long it lasts.
Many authors who were thought outrageous in their day---became icons 20 to 30 years after their deaths.
Women like Jane Austin and Zora Neale Hurston have become like "brand new pennies" in the modern age--but were not fairly read or respected while they were creating their works.
If a book can be read 50 to 100 years after being published and still have resonance or power with its reader, then it's good writing.
But, of course, communication of any kind is always good for the global commonality--so we should always encourage ANYONE to write and attempt to be heard, regardless of what they have to say.
Even the joke book can bring hard won wisdoms that mean something...to somebody.
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Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 111
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 04:27 pm: |
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Interesting POV Snakegirl. So I'm assuming that you believe self-publishing and subsidy publishing is a good thing because everyone has a chance to be heard.
Do you believe that the more books supplied from different authors (including bad ones) the less demand there will be for all books (including good ones)? Do you think traditional publishers are struggling with this problem? Do you believe the typos and grammar errors will cease in the coming years? Or does it matter? |
Snakegirl
Regular Poster
Username: Snakegirl
Post Number: 38
Registered: 05-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 05:10 pm: |
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Hi Emanuel,
Nothing really matters but "marketing saavy", determination and coming from the heart.
TALENT, however, rises to the top...over time. It separates the "hyped sellers" from the real, true artists who have something to say.
Patti LaBelle could sing Diana Ross under the table in 1964...but Patti had no support system, no decent management, inferior material to Ross's and no charisma that was "appealing" to the broad American taste--yet she tried to sing directed at the mass market.
Hence, even with the biggest voice in the world and decent looks (back then, she wasn't the beauty that she is now)---she couldn't overcome the style of Diana Ross and the substance of Holland/Dozier/Holland.
You see how impossible it is to put everything in one neat category? You simply can't. There are so many Variables and "fragments" to what makes something successful or have merit...or lack those qualities.
With books, you see a lot of very bad ones like "BLING" by Ericka Kennedy, selling millions, merely because the "subject" and the huge distribution muscle of a major publisher dictates that everyone get the book--that everyone REVIEW the book--that all the glossies feature its stunningly gorgeous author (I wish I looked like Erica Kennedy!). But she can't write. And it was BORING as hell and on the level of Jackie Collins and yet still....it got a HURSTON-WRIGHT nomination for "Commercial Fiction".
Let me get straight to your questions, bruh:
(1) Do you believe that the more books supplied from different authors (including bad ones) the less demand there will be for all books (including good ones)?
Absolutely not.
Because I am a reader who loves to read---and those who love to read will always be on the lookout for good books, things of interest.
In the Black world, we're getting more of a selection nowadays. A lot of it is crap, but there's still ENORMOUS stacks of good books--including your new release, according to Troy, which is why I will be buying a copy--word of mouth.
SEE--"good books", regardless of typo and errors create word of mouth. When you're reading a really GOOD STORY--you don't even notice the errors all that much, because you're so deep into the story or the idea that is engaging you.
And in my case--while I love black literature of the Morrison, Ellison, Baldwin, Achebe, Emecheta variety....I also love GOOD TRASH...IF...it's good.
Like "Valley of the Dolls" was some good ass trash. And so was "Mandingo".
But most of the trash books are just poorly written to make a quick buck and tantilize the reader.
Do you think traditional publishers are struggling with this problem?
Yes, the traditional publishers at this moment are caught in BLAND mode. It's like it's 1950 again (the Beat generation) and many of the editors at the very top houses are just not very savvy or eclectic. They're out for dollar statistics---to make their Resume's chunky---but they aren't making the big discoveries and breaking ground in any way right now. It's the 1950's at the big houses. So they have a habit of letting the MARKET dictate to them (through self-publishers and the new underground) what to embrace.
Big houses only want to publish what's already been a hit for them in the past. They're so CORPORATE and HUGE now that they've lost touch with the talent pool---they don't have feelers anymore.
Do you believe the typos and grammar errors will cease in the coming years? Or does it matter?
It does matter if you're trying to win a Writing Prize or get a review from a major newspaper.
But if your story is REALLY GOOD and involving and compelling---the readers/buyers will generally not care. And I know from experience, because there's about 35 errors in my novel "Flesh and the Devil" (367 page book)---typos that I accused the Editor of putting there, I was so pissed off-----BUT, guess what? Some of the biggest names in the literary world have written me...praising the book and saying how much they loved it and recommended it to their friends. Not a single one of them mentioned the errors in the book. And even though I'm on a very tiny imprint---the book has sold extraordinarily well.
So I think it's the people who can't write good story and aren't compelling artists who have to worry MORE....about typo/errors. The STREET FICTION genre really has to be on the ball, because there's a "stigma" already attached to that type of book, regardless of the author's hard work.
I loved "Coldest Winter Ever", but I can't read street fiction, in general. It's like rap and it's preoccupied with a lot of topics that are meaningless, and a lot of the people writing it have colorist and bling-bling perspectives that make the reading of it very hard for someone like me who is analytical and looking to get some kernel of wisdom and understanding.
But I ENCOURAGE the publication of these books, because surely there is merit to it and a great artist WILL BE discovered from it---I truly loved the old Donald Goines books and WHORESON---they were brilliantly REAL. And all experience is part of the human picture....it should definitely be given a voice and be published.
You would not believe the enormous OPPOSITION there is to my work (because it's so African and I'm topless on the back of my books and the stories deal with subjects that are very disturbing and painful--yet so compelling and engrossing that they "haunt" the reader).
My books have been firebombed...and yet major literary writers are always praising my talent and the importance of my work.
So you see...we must all be heard. And TIME...will decide the merit of what we have said and expressed.
My advice to anyone who wants to write a book is this:
"You should always be getting to the good part."
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Sisg
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 220
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 10, 2005 - 05:22 pm: |
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I would like to jump in here....if you don't mind.
Vanity publishing, self-publishing, pod's are here to stay, especially since it has become more affordable, unlike in the past paying a Vanity publisher could cost you and arm, leg and mortgage.
But i believe the QUALITY of books will be better, but only if we demand that they are. There are numerous consumers who will continue to purchase the types of books you mention because they don't care about grammar, typos, or the lack of plot..they simply want to be entertained, and thats what's selling now. But i believe an educated reader is much like an educated writer, as their reading tastes progress, they may take notice that not all book are like this. Will they choose not to read the error-filled books, over the perfect book, maybe, maybe not, but they will know the difference.
Do you think traditional publishers are struggling with this problem? Heck no! They are relishing in it. This is evidenced by the number of books being produced, and the number of authors crossing over to traditional publishing houses. Traditional publishers don't care whats published, or it seems, whether there typo's, no structure, etc...they are only about the money! Who's hot! The more we consume, the more they'll print.
Do you believe the typos and grammar errors will cease in the coming years?
Yes, but as i said earlier, only if the consumer demands such a change. I don't believe author's want to publish a error-filled book. Sometimes mistakes are made, overlooked, go unseen, in other words a lot of times sh$^! happens. I've talked with other authors, agents and publishers about this, and believe me, more times than not, a book has been release with errors, typos, and the whole house was editing. I remember a conversation between Vickie Stringer and Terry McMillan on a panel where Terry asked quite bluntly why Vickie can't hire a good editor, Vickie's answer, i did, and yet the book's are still full of errors. Editing, proofing calls for diligence, and quite a few eyes. It can be done, this is one task that is not insurmountable. And yes, it does matter, a book just flows better without errors....now nothing can correct storyline but a rewrite.
IMO |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 112
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 10:52 am: |
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Thanks for the promise on picking up my book Snakegirl. I've heard great things about your book and have read some very interesting articles on you.
What's interesting about street lit is that it's practically expected to have lots of typos and grammar errors. (Traditionally published ones have errors too, just not as many.) It makes me wonder if the publishers allow this on purpose to give the authors street cred. so that readers can relate to the imperfections of a writer. I've read some street lit like "The Coldest Winter Ever" and "Thugs are For Fun" and thought the writing was OK but the target audience is probably younger than I am (38) so it really didn't matter what my opinion was anyway.
I wonder if traditional publishers will purchase subsidy presses or start their own subsidy divisions like they're purchasing small presses and self-published books.
It's interesting that a lot of people encourage the reading of poorly-written books since it leads to a thirst for reading and possibly a thirst for better written books. What if it just lowers the bar and creates a desire for more poorly-written books? Does that influence readers?
By the way, that was an excellent post. It reminds me of this New York Times article that someone posted back in June:
Traditional publishers have been giving deals to hot independently-published authors lately.
June 20, 2005
Young Publishers Dominate Black Fiction
By ALEX MINDLIN
Established publishers have been slow to notice the growing demand for fiction aimed at black audiences. In their absence, a number of upstarts have filled the gap.
Of the 10 paperback novels on the Essence best-seller list for June (which reflects sales at 20 African-American bookstores across the country), 5 of them, including "My Invisible Husband" by Sheila M. Goss and "Sacred Sermon" by Nicolle Pierce, were published by companies created after 2000.
"In African-American fiction, a lot of the books that people are buying now are self-published, and they're aimed towards a younger and more urban audience," said Manie Barron, an agent for African-American authors. "These small publishers came into existence because mainstream publishers turned up their nose at these books." Now, he said, some of them "have gone out and bought the authors, or just acquired entire companies."
ALEX MINDLIN
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Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 113
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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So Sisg, you don't believe publishers are jealous and worried about profits when they see self-published books on the best-sellers lists? Do you think the solution to poorly-written books is to stop buying them and stop making them bestsellers? |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 114
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:39 am: |
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Here's snapshot of this month's Essence best-seller list for paperback non-fiction. If I was a traditional publisher, I'd be worried about sales. However, they still have hardcover on lock.
FICTION PAPERBACK
1. Deadly Reigns by Teri Woods (Teri Woods Publishing, $14.95)
2. Grown Folks Business by Victoria Christopher-Murray (Touchstone, $14)
3. Say U Promise by Michel Moore (Say U Promise Publications, $14.95)
4. Swingers by Torrian Ferguson (Two of a Kind Publishing, $14.95)
5. Hood Rich by Crystal Perkins-Stell (Crystell Publications, $15.95)
6. Don’t Ever Wonder by Darren Coleman (Amistad, $14.95)
7. Lovin’ You Is Wrong by Alisha Yvonne (Urban Books, $14.95)
8. Still Sheisty by T. N. Baker (Triple Crown Publications, $15)
9. The Velvet Rope by Brenda L. Thomas (Downtown Press, $13)
10. Nervous by Zane (Atria, $15) |
Sisg
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 221
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
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Well, speaking for myself only, when i pick up a book and i can't get through it after several tries because it is poorly written....i won't purchase another. I purchased several of the street fiction books, after Coldest Winter, because i happened to like this one and yes i had a thirst for more, but my thirst wasn't quenched....not by a long run. I like a story. A well told story, in fact and not just a bunch of sentences strung together, interjected with curse words and lurid sex. Now if you can write a story and have those same elements embedded in it, then you got my attention. I know there are a lot of books being printed, a lot of debut authors...heck i'm one of them, but as Kola said earlier, a real test of an authors talent is whether the book stands the test of time....even in the midst of a flooding book market...cream rises to the top...i'm aiming to be that cream and i hope other authors do the same. An agent once told me that readers will notice errors, typos and she said they will be emailing you about them...perhaps this can be part of the solution, let the author know, and maybe they will or the publisher will take better care and do a better job the next time...and then again, maybe not....to each his own. |
Sisg
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Sisg
Post Number: 222
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 11:54 am: |
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Emanuel,
I think it's great that we are supporting our own. Hell most of us couldn't get the attention of some of the big name publishers until we started making money on our own. But what we mustn't forget is that when you own your rights, and publish your own book, you reap the majority of the profit...yes i know, small budgets and lack of marketing, distribution can limit your visibility and sales, but it can be done and sooner or later, maybe one day, we can be Simon&Shuster, Penguin, etc...the traditional publishers are looking to make all of the money, so yes, they are paying attention, checking out Booksense numbers and whatever data they can get their hands on, in search of their next pot of gold, and if it takes buying the whole company for a couple of million and then making 10 times that amount on their already established customers, then so be it...but why can't we be the ones to make the 10-20 million. I have to give it up to Zane, because she was one of the first that they came looking for and they paid bigtime! |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 115
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 11, 2005 - 12:35 pm: |
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I feel ya on Zane. I've never read her work but I have read 2 of her authors on the Strebor imprint. She has that entrepeneur spirit that anyone can look up to by going from self-published to starting her own company, to signing with a major publisher. A lot of authors are taking notes and trying to do the same thing.
We CAN be the ones making millions, and we are. BET Books probably did pretty well and even better when they sold to Harlequin. Triple Crown has got to be making some serious change because they stay on the best-seller list. Even smaller, independent publishers who got in the game to self-publish are now publishing other authors. It's a beautiful thang, and it sure beats using a subsidy publisher. Wouldn't it be nice to hear that a company like Strebor has bought out Random House instead of the other way around?
I'm in the same boat with you in regards to trying to do my own thing. I started Forest Wade Press because I didn't want to wait for a tradional publisher to give me the nod. If I only break even with "Where is the Love?" that will be cool with me because my main goal is to get the story out there, get my name out there and hopefully get some decent reviews. I wouldn't say no to a deal from a big publisher because I would rather just concentrate on the writing and not the business of publishing but I have the sense to know that it's a one in a milion shot. That's why I went to college-to get a good job that I love doing that handles the day to day bills. Personally, I only plan on writing a couple more books anyway-a sequel to "Where is the Love?" and a business book I'm almost done with. After that, I plan on being done.
Unless.
Unless a really good book idea comes to me. |
Emanuel
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 116
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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OK. So if self-publishing and subsidy publishing are such a good thing, why isn't mainstream media embracing most of it by treating the books just like traditionally published books when it comes to reviews and media coverage? Why is it that the larger chain bookstores have a problem stocking and selling most of the books? Will this ever change in the coming years? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2988
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 12, 2005 - 02:19 pm: |
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I think self-published and subsidized books are stigmatized because of a prevailing mind-set espousing the idea that if a book isn't anoited by having been accepted by a major publishing house, it doesn't have best-seller potential. It's all about the bottom line. Because self-publishing enables so many bad books to be on the market, this attitude will be hard to dispel. And, too, with the market being flooded with books in general, the supply has exceeded the demand which, in turn, drives profits down. It behooves every aspiring author nowadays to keep their day job. |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 298
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 05:30 pm: |
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Emanuel,
To answer your questions quickly. Of course, alternatives to mainstream publication are here to stay.
Ayntime there is increased competition the "marketplace" benefits. This forces competitors to improve their products and lower their prices.
Of course technology has made this possible.
People complain about TCP, but as TCP becomes more successful their product will improve (it takes money to make money). TCP web site is as good -- even better than most major hourses. Of course this was not always the case. There sucess has allowed them to step up.
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