| Author |
Message |
    
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 335
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 08:52 am: | 
|
Hello All,
I was just looking over some of the new titles that are being released this winter. I just have one question for y’all: How come?
How come with most of the books written for the AA reading audience HAVE to have a message?
Really, it’s the same message(s): 1.) Have faith in Jesus and He will see you through…Amen. 2.) Always strive for the social station that is 2 or 3 stations higher than the one you were born in, because life just ain’t worth living without being able to buy and wear designer clothes. 3.) Write black characters taking the “high” road; good strong, independent black characters of moral fiber.
How come the same large number of books HAS the same message(s)?
This implies two notions, which rubs me all the wrong way: 1.) we are some of the most immoral people ever to walk the face of the earth; 2.) we are awfully stupid. After all of the books written, bought and read we STILL too damn cheap to buy a couple of vowels to get a few clues. Evidently, one or two books based on the same messages, ain’t doing it. 20-40 books a year needs to be written and read EVERY SINGLE YEAR! I can’t speak for y’all but I don’t need a brick wall to fall on my head before I get a message. I guess this could explain why I’m dissatisfied with the “message” trend: I have already found Jesus (singing “I luv the Lord, he heard my cry-yyy-yyyy”); I am proud to be black and make very good money; lastly, I still remember the previously stated facts. So, where does that leave me Ass out and always looking for the books that don’t have a “message” to read? Sadly enough, I spend more time looking than reading.
|
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 979
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 10:31 am: |
|
Thumper:
I think it just means that people who enjoy these sorts of books are buying a lot of them.
Think about it--what is it that readers of crime fiction want to read--Crime Does Not Pay. What do readers of Sci Fi want--Technology can cure all things. What do readers of porn and erotica want? A sex act on every page. Agatha Christie essentially sold the same book over and over again dozens of times
Why is it that author after author can come out with Get Rich Quick books and sell them? Or romance authors? People are apparently liking the message, what it sez to me. |
Mahoganyanais
Veteran Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 53
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
|
Thumper,
Chris beat me to it: supply and demand.
But beyond that, your question seems to be why do "our" books seems so disproportionately afflicted. Maybe it's harder for a black writer to "break out" with something that trumps the status quo. But is it harder because the demand for Something Different doesn't seem to be all that high among us? If so, then why is that? Which takes us back to your original question!
Personally, I'm always in search of Something Different. A different voice, settings, experimenting with form (like Bernardine Evaristo's "The Emperor's Babe", which I must read before the year is out!)
And characters with strong moral fiber bore me! lol |
Troy
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 221
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 11:04 am: |
|
How about this: "Not all people buy all books."
See, Thumper reads a lot of books. Most people don't. His reaction is going to be a liitle exaggerated because he has a higher level of exposure than the average reader. In fact, I suspect many readers, save the avid ones, probably not aware this is even a "issue".
When a reader gets tired of the same 'ole message. There is another virgin reader queued up for more of the same. Of course there are people who can't get enought of the same message, as Chris suggests, but I think those people are a minority.
I have no problem with books having the same messages as long as it is told in a fresh way.
You know, for example the street novel will likely go the route of; a good/smart kid forced to go bad because of abuse/poverty only to rise then fall (message: crime ultimately does not pay).
Another message, overused to the point of cliche, is the "guy meets girl, guy loses girl, guy gets girl back" plot (message: love the one you are with, the grass is always greener, etc).
The problem is that these messages can be told well or they can be told poorly. Thumper I think this is really the crux of your complaint. I think your complaint is that many of these message are frequently being told poorly. What do you think?
In the book G-Spot, which you praised on an earlier post (http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/3048.html?1107727978#POST21806), was the message "new" or was message related well?
Besides how many "really" new messages are there anyway?
|
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 12:51 pm: |
|
Right Troy,
There are no new stories. Aint nothing new under the sun. ANY story you read has more than likely been told- and retold more than a few times.
Like you say Troy, its all about the voice. Along with that, how well(0r poorly) it's being told that captures(does not capture?) the readers' attention.
As far as black people including Jesus in their books, how can we tell our stories and leave Him out, when it is drilled in us from a very young age that we must have Him in our lives? It is so much of the fabric that our lives are woven from, I mean who doesn't have a mother, grandma or great-grandma, telling us stories of the miracles of survival that wouldn't have happened without God in thier lives? |
Carey
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 443
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 01:41 pm: |
|
Thump
I can see the look of frustration on your face. I suspect some of the replies did not address the central point of your concern/issue which probably adds to your frustration. Hey, don't worry about it, I know what you are saying and I suspect other do to. |
Mahoganyanais
Veteran Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 54
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 02:39 pm: |
|
A_womon: As far as black people including Jesus in their books, how can we tell our stories and leave Him out, when it is drilled in us from a very young age that we must have Him in our lives?
Mah: Very easily. Just write something else. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, truly.
A_womon: It is so much of the fabric that our lives are woven from, I mean who doesn't have a mother, grandma or great-grandma, telling us stories of the miracles of survival that wouldn't have happened without God in thier lives?
Mah: Yes, but having this background shouldn't obligate us to write about Jesus, and more specifically, to write about Jesus in the vein that Thumper is lamenting, a vein that is so pat and simplistic (to some readers). I'm not (and I didn't get the sense that Thumper was) knocking those particular stories per se; just wondering why there seems to be such a proliferation of them as a percentage of our overall book total, when as a people we have so many different stories to tell.
That said, I think what you wrote, A_womon, is *precisely* the reason that we see what Thumper is describing re: Jesus. The message many of us has gotten is that "You're not a Good Christian unless [fill in all manner of superficial ultimately meaningless things]." That translates into, you can't be a good Christian writer unless you write in the very narrow vein Thumper describes, e.g., everybody gets saved by the end of the book. That's a very limited and limiting way to approach writing and storytelling, imo.
The same is true for *blackness*. If you are a black writer, and you want black people to buy your books, you *should* write about these approved topics, in these sanitized ways. Where's the freedom in that? Fortunately, there are black writers who brave it and write outside of the box.
There are black atheists--probably many of whom had Jesus shoved down their throats as kids too. Why don't we get more books from/about them? Is it because black atheists don't write much, or because the "market" says that black folks aren't interested in embracing stories about people who tend to be marginalized or otherwise minorities within our communities (E. Lynn Harris, notable exception)? And if so, why don't we embrace a wider variety of experiences in our literature, particularly ones we happen not to agree with or haven't had ourselves?
We are a diverse people, with diverse experiences. Why doesn't our literature reflect that diversity *in terms of what is popular* or what Thumper at least sees coming down the pike mostly? I don't want to read about people who are doing stuff I've already done or can easily do; I want to read about experiences I've never had or never will have. I like to be challenged and entertained by someone doing something I believe I would never do.
But if the market demands books that affirm what people already know and believe and are comfortable with, that is what will get published.
Now...on the flip side of all of that, if you look at a lot of chick lit one could get the impression that most white women in this country are in their 30s living in New York looking for Mr. Right. That's not any more an accurate representation of white women than the books Thumper is talking about are accurate representations of all of who We are. |
Soul_sister
Newbie Poster
Username: Soul_sister
Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 02:51 pm: |
|
Hey All,
I have been tooting that horn since I joined this conversation many moons ago. I HATE this new ghetto lit genre that has come about - and I do believe that it is dumbing down what is literature.
Yes, I can appreciate the "its moving folk to read" argument but at what cost?
I have to agree with Thumper on this and yes, Troy and others, who have feet in both reality and the narrow lines of the pro-active literate Blk mind - smile - there are some pluses and than there are pigeon-hole-ing publishers.
Just today I recieved three arcs -- two of which I will NEVER read -- the glamourous life by nikki turner and other men's wives by freddie johnson, 3rd. Just to reaffirm my position I opened johnson's first to see what the deal was -- a character Denmark Vessey Wheeler starts to cheat on his cheating wife with the wives of the men she bedded -- incredible - -yes, I admit slightly erotic -- possibly - but I want to move beyond those feelings -- especially after Angel of Harlem and now Pride of Carthage and Death of Innocence - which has been really hard to start.
Oh well, thanks for listening and sending a lightening rod through the site - - peace
ps the 3rd was space between the stars by deborah santana - a semi-autobiographical trip through her life |
Soul_sister
Newbie Poster
Username: Soul_sister
Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 02:54 pm: |
|
Oooooooops -- I missed the Jesus point - but y'all who know me - know where I stand on the Jesus issue - I love HIM and understand His place in our lives, history and culture pre and post slave trade -- but aint reading the Christian literature - it is way to boring and trite for me - Yup, I said it - trite and boring. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1230
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 05:05 pm: |
|
Here's the thing though, Why we always gotta be so diverse and write about the deeper meaning of our blackness? There ARE writers doing that. I've said this before. We ALWAYS gotta be shining examples of our blackness and worrying about how we as a people are percieved. Why? Why can't we write for the sheer joy of writing? Al Capone and them got their gangster stories told and retold and told again. We get to or three stories about thugs and pimps and people go to holding their heads and talking about the state of black literature.
Well why is this? Are our literary tales and tomes so few and far between and so fragile that they can be shattered and blown away by a few years of thug drama? PLEASE! If that is the case, then what has been labled literary and can't stand up to new genres of writing coming on the scene may not be ALL that it's cracked up to be anyway. |
Mahoganyanais
Veteran Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 05:32 pm: |
|
A_womon: Here's the thing though, Why we always gotta be so diverse <snip>
Mah: We don't gotta be, lol, we just are!
I don't imagine writers sitting around thinking about how they can "be diverse." Even if everyone just writes what they know (the old adage), we wouldn't end up with all thug dramas. When you throw in imagination and curiosity and research and writing beyond your experience, the story possibilities are endless.
A_womon: ...and write about the deeper meaning of our blackness? There ARE writers doing that.
Mah: Yes, and I'm thankful for that!
A_womon: We get to or three stories about thugs and pimps and people go to holding their heads and talking about the state of black literature.
Well why is this? Are our literary tales and tomes so few and far between and so fragile that they can be shattered and blown away by a few years of thug drama? PLEASE! If that is the case, then what has been labled literary and can't stand up to new genres of writing coming on the scene may not be ALL that it's cracked up to be anyway.
Mah: Re: literary tales being fragile and not being able to stand up to new genres...I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to. My preferences for what I read and what I write, and my thoughts about what is "popular" and marketed have nothing to do with the relative strength of "literary" fiction (genres don't compete, as far as I'm aware).
Nor am I concerned with how we as a people are perceived (presumably by whites). I'd just like to see an offering of books by and about us that is as diverse as we are. If most of the books coming down the pike were all in the vein of "The Emperor of Ocean Park" or "Song of Solomon", I'd make the same observation. I'd wonder where the thugs and pimps were. ;-)
|
Mahoganyanais
Veteran Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 05:40 pm: |
|
Almost forgot...
A_womon: Why can't we write for the sheer joy of writing?
Mah: People write for the sheer joy of writing all the time...and don't necessarily produce thug dramas as a result. It's a misconception that "literary" fiction is just posturing or what results when people are trying to be "deep" or "diverse."
When Writer A writes for the sheer joy of it, she produces a thug drama. Writer B does the same and produces "White Teeth" [or your favorite "literary" novel here]. It's natural.
|
Mahoganyanais
Veteran Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 57
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 06:01 pm: |
|
Soul_sister: I have been tooting that horn since I joined this conversation many moons ago. I HATE this new ghetto lit genre that has come about - and I do believe that it is dumbing down what is literature.
Mah: I know I have my personal preferences (which do not include "ghetto lit") and would like to see more diversity, but can you explain how you see one genre taking away from the other? Whether AA or mainstream, there is "literary" fiction and there is popular fiction; two different worlds, no harm no foul?
Do you mean publishers lump all black writing together and a preference for "thug dramas" is eating of "literary's" piece of the pie? If that is the case, I fault the publishers.
Or is it that black writers are ghettoizing themselves by what they choose to write about?
Or, is the black reader not demanding a more diverse offering, not supporting "literary" fiction through purchase?
Where do you think the problem lies primarily? With the publishers? The writers of ghetto lit? Or the consumers of it? |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 336
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 07:45 pm: |
|
Hello All,
This is going to be a humdinger of a post, so please bear with me.
Chris you wrote: "I think it just means that people who enjoy these sorts of books are buying a lot of them."
Really Chris. All those damn books!?! Come on now dawg...EVERY SINGLE YEAR! Are you telling me that people are each buying 20-40 of those "I was a ho but now I got Jesus" books? EACH? I don't think so. And anyway, my argument wasn't the marketablity of the books but the implied message that all of these books are giving us as a people.
Oh and by the way, I disagree with your assessment of people reading the crime and murder mystery novels as well. I don't read them for the "Crime Don't Pay" message. None of the mystery fans I know read those books because of that message. I read them to see if I can unravel the murder before the author reveals the murderer. It is very much a match of wits between the author and his audience. So an excellent mystery writer won't be caught performing the same trick twice. This basic fact alone makes it impossible to lump these books in the same category as the "I was a ho but now I found Jesus" books. I disagree with your assessment of the Agatha Christie novels as well. Since I read most of them, please tell me which two or three books she wrote that have the same murder plot. Don't worry, I'll wait.
Mah: I'm glad you understand what I was saying.
Troy wrote: "The problem is that these messages can be told well or they can be told poorly. Thumper I think this is really the crux of your complaint. I think your complaint is that many of these message are frequently being told poorly. What do you think?"
No that's not what I am saying. I am saying why is there a "message" that the authors feel that we should be told? And why is it in a story? Do these AA authors feel that we, as a people, are amoral and too damn deaf or dumb that we either didn't hear the same message the first 1000 times or that we are too dumb to comprehend the message?
Troy wrote: "
In the book G-Spot, which you praised on an earlier post (http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/1/3048.html?1107727978#POST21806), was the message "new" or was message related well?"
I wasn't aware that there was a message. I'm sure many can garner many messages from it, but the book was about telling a story, which was the first and main purpose of the book. And isn't that how it should be, especially when it is calling itself a novel? *eyebrow raised*
A_womon wrote: "As far as black people including Jesus in their books, how can we tell our stories and leave Him out, when it is drilled in us from a very young age that we must have Him in our lives? It is so much of the fabric that our lives are woven from, I mean who doesn't have a mother, grandma or great-grandma, telling us stories of the miracles of survival that wouldn't have happened without God in thier lives?"
A_womon, the point I was making was riding on the 8:45 AM train, and you got to the train station at 11:30 AM. Meaning, you totally missed the point. You know my uncle told me many years ago, to be a good WRITER, you have to be a good READER. Figure it out and get back with a me. *eyebrow raised*
Soul Sister: Now, you FEEL me. Am I the only who notice that no one really answer the point I was trying to make.
A_womon wrote: "Here's the thing though, Why we always gotta be so diverse and write about the deeper meaning of our blackness? There ARE writers doing that. I've said this before. We ALWAYS gotta be shining examples of our blackness and worrying about how we as a people are percieved. Why? Why can't we write for the sheer joy of writing? Al Capone and them got their gangster stories told and retold and told again. We get to or three stories about thugs and pimps and people go to holding their heads and talking about the state of black literature.
Well why is this? Are our literary tales and tomes so few and far between and so fragile that they can be shattered and blown away by a few years of thug drama?"
A_womon, I see the time is now 12:45 PM and you're walking around the station wondering where the 8:45 AM train is? Girl, you done clean lost your mind. Why do our stories have to be diverse, you ask, because our stories ARE diverse!!
Two or three books about thugs?? *eyebrow raised* *looking around the room to see if everyone else is seeing what I see and that I'm not alone in my shockness* Dearheart, there are whole imprints designated for the thug books. And they are predictable!! But that's the same argument that I'll reserve for another post.
Finally, since we object to the implied messages that we have been getting and still get from white society concerning ourselves, why are so many of us willing to accept these messages from others that simply "look" like us, but may not be one of us?
|
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 1954
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 12:10 am: |
|
I don't know whether I'm on the same page with anyone here. But it's possible that these message books are "art imitating life." They are like sermons, delivered by a preacher; little parables that have moral to them. They tell readers what they already know or suspect and, in the process, allow them to figuratively nod their heads and say "amen." Plus, many folks just can't resist anything that offers hope for a better life. So, they read these books for the same reason they go to church: to be reassured that De Lawd will make a way if you do right. Obviously, there's money to be made from tapping into the broad audience receptive to these "gospels", and like the silver-tongued preachers that they are, the authors of them are reaping the rewards, and thankin Jesus. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1231
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 10:46 am: |
|
Thumper: here we go again. I don't have a computer at home right now(crashed) and its going to be awhile end of the month at least, before I get another, so here at work i can't address your post like I want to. But I will--soon. At least you didn't chop my post to bits to fit your argument.
Mah: first of all my post was directed at no one in particular, just a general post. second of all OF COURSE we as a people are diverse, that wasn't my point, but since you acknowledge that fact, then acknowledge the fact that some readers out there are diverse in their reading tastes as well, and don't choose exclude reading or writing any stories that our diversity allows, YES including so-called "ghetto" fiction. Does your lable seek to belittle those who read write and like street fiction? If so save it, check the bookstore sales figures, it aint working. PEACE! |
Mahoganyanais
Veteran Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 11:15 am: |
|
A_womon: then acknowledge the fact that some readers out there are diverse in their reading tastes as well, and don't choose exclude reading or writing any stories that our diversity allows, YES including so-called "ghetto" fiction.
Mah: Good for them! What have I said that contradicted this? I've never suggested that any genre should not be published, read, or written.
A_womon: Does your lable seek to belittle those who read write and like street fiction? If so save it, check the bookstore sales figures, it aint working. PEACE!
It's not my label. Hence the quotes I tried to consistently put arouund "ghetto lit", "thug drama", AND "literary." All subjective, descriptive terms. You may try assign absolute value or hierarchy to them in some objective way; I don't. I like what I like. I have my opinions. To each her own.
And to answer your question, I don't seek to belittle those who write and like street fiction. And nothing I've written suggests that I do. I wrote about my own preferences as a reader.
And I really don't put a whole lot of stock in what sells as far as entertainment goes. And if I was trying to belittle someone, I could, even if they were on everybody's bestseller list. I could shout from the rooftops that the books sucked, and the cash registers would keep on ringing. So, what's the problem?
You suggested in another post that "literary" fiction might somehow be threatened by "thug dramas" based on people decrying the "state of black literature" in the wake of the proliferation of "thug dramas." Following that line of reasoning, let me ask you this: Why is the criticism of "thug dramas" problematic? You said yourself, sales are brisk, so why isn't it just a matter of strokes for folks? Should this genre be above criticism or even belittling? If so, why?--no other genre is.
Peace to you. |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1232
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 11:34 am: |
|
You said it mah! to each his/her OWN. Dig that.
I don't think I suggested that you are not entitled to YOUR opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. One person's opinion either way is just a drop in the literary bucket, ok?
So opine on my sista! And I will continue to do the same. |
Soul_sister
Newbie Poster
Username: Soul_sister
Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 12:31 pm: |
|
Hey All,
Thumper - you know we love to agree to disagree but I believe this is the 2nd time we are vibing on the same plane - cool.
As for the others -- I love the dialogue and diversity of opinion - I wish at times, I could be that liberal - but something will not allow me - I suppose that is who I is? Jess B. Semple.
Oh well, clearly all reading people do not invest in books -but something is driving the market and that is why these books are selling -- that is one of my probs.
But I believe that true writing and story telling might hibernate in this latter day information age but like true genius it will rise to the top and become recognized and appreciated -- acunamata --the circle of life and all that jazz
Ya dig!! peace |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 339
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 07:06 pm: |
|
Hello All,
A_womon: Whatever, dawg. Please come correct and ready to discuss the issue at hand. *eyebrow raised*
Soul Sister: It's about time, don't you think? *big smile* I agree with your last post. I too believe that true writing and story telling will rise to the top. |
Libralind2
Newbie Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 7
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 03:52 pm: |
|
Thumper..you dont know me yet but I agree 300% with what you said and have said it MANY times.
Linda from Ohio |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1233
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 04:09 pm: |
|
Thumper,
Yassuh boss cap'n suh! Ah shole will try my bestest to stay on topic suh. But Ah gotta tell you suh, Ah shole don't cotton much to youins callin me "dawg" suh, shole don't seein as how ahm
sho nuff awl woman! yasuhh shole is! No disrespect 'tended suh, so I shole hope youins don' beat me fuh speakin mah mine! |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 340
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 08:23 pm: |
|
Hello All,
Libralind2: Thank you.
A_womon: Oh my bad. I was trying to keep it real, as you young folks would say.
But, it is so good to see that you are using proper English! And they say that our young folks don't know. I'm glad to know that you are the exception. *LOL* |
A_womon
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: A_womon
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 08:26 am: |
|
HAHAHHA! I learned from hangin out witchyall!! (soiiiiiiiike!) Just jokin!!! |
Yvettep
Newbie Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 02:23 pm: |
|
This is a great conversation. When I used to teach I wondered something similar about children's literature: Was it "dumbing down" to have kids read books based on movies, TV shows, and even video games? I'm not talking movies and other art forms adapted from books, but the other way around. And I feel the same sense of worry about other art forms by and/or for African Americans: TV sitcoms, movies, music. There seems to be so much more Black representation than at any other time--but so much of it seems to be of poor quality, or at least the same ol' same ol'
|
Solomonjones
Veteran Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 63
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
|
Thumper -
You keep seeing the 'I was a ho but I found Jesus' books (that's a hilarious moniker, by the way) because there is a vast market for those books. I think the publishing industry discovered that market with the success of the chitlin circuit plays. You know the ones. There's a promiscuous woman, a flamboyant gay character, a preacher, a grandmother, a troubled son, a drug dealer and/or pimp, and everybody gets saved at the end. Church folks go to those plays by the busload and plunk down good money to see them. I'm just theorizing here, but I think the books may be an outgrowth of that.
Think about the number of black folks who go to church (count me in that number). Have you stopped counting yet? That's my point. There is a huge market for these Christian stories, and you see fifty gazillion stories to cater to it, not because the authors think we are amoral, but because these stories make money. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 2000
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 12:47 am: |
|
The movie "Diary of a Mad Black Woman" which topped the box office last week, pulling in a cool 22 million dollars is an example of this genre. The "Madea" character featured in this movie and portrayed in drag by the author Tyler Perry was popularized on the "chitlin" circuit and the plays written by Perry have a huge fan following. In fact, because this film was panned by both black and white critics, its supporters all over the country, through urban radio outlets, web sites and e-mails banned together, vowing to get out and patronize this film to prove the critics wrong. And they did, which is why it made so much money. This was a significant phenomenon in that a simple-minded movie like this one could generate so much support in the black community, and succeed where more worth while efforts have failed. |
Solomonjones
Veteran Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 65
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 04, 2005 - 10:37 am: |
|
Cynique -
Precisely. |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 372
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 05, 2005 - 04:19 pm: |
|
Hello All,
Solomon: I don't know if I would put Tyler Perry's plays in the same category with the "I was a ho but now I found Jesus" books. Mainly, because he is telling a story and not just using a formula. Second, he's not preaching, and his works doesn't have a preachy tone to it. Third, Perry created Madea! See, where many of these "inspirational" stories fail is that they are preachy, and not telling a story where the message is evident YET not proudly announced or blantantly obvious. For example, none of these stories are written as parables, why not? *eyebrow raised* When Jesus told his parables, were the answers obvious? He didn't beat the message into the ground. In my opinion that is what I have against the latest crop of "inspirational" books. If the author is going to preach, then preach; but if the author is telling a story, then tell it. None have the skills to do a combination of both. And no matter how anyone try to fix it, you can't wrap a Playboy text story inside a Holy Bible cover and have it turn out fine. |
Solomonjones
Veteran Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 67
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 09:44 pm: |
|
Thumper -
Tyler Perry isn't using a formula? I think he's definitely using a formula. The difference is (and this is where I totally agree with you), the formula is his own. It's not borrowed from someone else. Of course, Perry paid a price for that early in his career, when he would put on a play and five people would show up. But that's the thing about creating unique formulas that are different from those of other people. You have to keep plugging away at it and waiting for the big hit to come. Trust me, I ain't hatin' on Tyler Perry. I'm trying to learn from him.
On the preaching thing, half the people in church shouldn't be preaching, so I can only imagine how many authors are trying to preach without having the faintest idea what they're talking about. This reminds me of another thread about (clearing my throat) blurbs. A sister I used to work with at a newspaper gave me a copy of a book she had self-published and asked me for a blurb. The book was a Christian inspirational book about waiting for God's timing before moving forward with one's dreams. Well, the book was filled with a lot of out-of-context Bible verses, grammatical errors and spelling errors. I read a couple of chapters and informed the sister that I couldn't blurb her book because the errors undermined the overall message. She couldn't have waited for God's timing to do her book because God would have sent her an editor ...
Anyhoo, the sister sent me a Bible verse saying that I was wrong because love covers a multitude of sins. I wanted to tell her that editing covers a multitude of errors, but I left it alone ... |
Mahoganyanais
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Mahoganyanais
Post Number: 86
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 10:11 pm: |
|
Solomonjones: Anyhoo, the sister sent me a Bible verse saying that I was wrong because love covers a multitude of sins. I wanted to tell her that editing covers a multitude of errors, but I left it alone ...
Mah: I truly, truly lol'ed! |
Thumper
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 377
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 07, 2005 - 10:45 pm: |
|
Hello All,
Solomon: True. I can't disagree with what you said about Perry. I stand corrected. I think its important to recognize the role of music in Perry's plays and his movie. Music does not translate well to the written word unless the words themselves form its own melody.
Again, I agree preaching does not translate into the written word, which is perhaps the HARDEST thing to accomplish in writing. The best preaching piece that I have ever read, before or since, was written by James Baldwin in his novel Just Above My Head (if I'm not mistaken). It was masterful, deep, lyrical and moving (emotionally and spiritually). It's a brilliant piece of writing. But, the preaching is encased in a story with real characters dealing with real life and not in the fantasy-mixed-with-denial that most of today's inspiritional books are made of.
Your story was a good one. *LOL* If you send your co-worker an editor, let me know. I got a list of "writers" that needs him/her TOO! |
Jmho
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 115
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 07:54 am: |
|
Solomonjones wrote:
This reminds me of another thread about (clearing my throat) blurbs.
Thou protesth too much me thinks. |
Solomonjones
Veteran Poster
Username: Solomonjones
Post Number: 69
Registered: 02-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 08, 2005 - 05:52 pm: |
|
Thumper:
Baldwin is simply one of the best writers ever to walk this planet. If anybody could include a sermon in a book and capture its spiritual significance, he could. Though Diane McKinney Whetstone had a church scene in Tempest Rising that was so well written it made my toes curl ... On Tyler Perry, I can't wait to see his movie. I'm actually hearing good things.
On my former coworker, I wish I could get the sister an editor, but, uh, she stopped speaking to me when I told her the truth about her book ...
Mah:
My fingers were literally trembling over the keys as I contemplated sending her that email.
Jmho:
You know we cool ... blurbs and all. |
|
Email This Page