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Madame X
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 08:40 pm: | 
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Just spinning off of a question Thumper had on another thread - but I'm interested in knowing which female authors - black or otherwise - tend to demonize their male characters? Would also like to her the reverse on this as well. |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 03, 2003 - 07:25 pm: |
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I read a review of Toni Morrison's new book yesterday and while it did not use the word "demonize" made this point about her work (I disagree)and of course there is Alice Walker. I agree with earlier comments here that the movie left out the very important part of Mister becoming a better man. I can think of some female authors whose male characters are narrowly drawn and perhaps modeled after what is familiar to the writer, but I never think of them as demonizing their male characters, just telling their own story through their own particular prism of experience. By the way, equally as bad are authors who deify their female characters. |
yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:58 am: |
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hmmmmmm....i'm so suspicious about these sorts of questions....does our literature need redeemable male characters or 3 dimensional characters...are we in the business of reading and writing feel good art? Are we too concerned with what whites think of us...is this not T Morrison's contribution--producing literature for us, as she says we are invisible to whom?....lif we are indeed concerned with maintaining a postive image of the black man for white folk or because our men don't want to be accountable for their actions then lets move on!
If we are to discuss this, consider TMorrison's male character in Jazz or milkman in SOS....are these redeemable male characters? Were the female characters in AJ Verdelle's Good Negress demonized, redeemable?
Also, how do we talk about intra-racial conflict w/o painting flawed men, especially when men, who have not always been the breadwinners, have been in control of the black institutions.....consider Salteaters...the work that black women did in our movements, while black men have tried to monopolize leadership, often for personal gain rather than community building. And black men have done other disservices to the black community, as black women have....who are often the translators of our culture, the good and bad....whether it is a case of marrying a daughter to the white man or other less conspicuous things like pinching their children's broad noses so that they'll be pointed!
In addition, perhaps we can discuss print versus film media and the power relations involved in the production of black literature transformed for the big screen....lets really talk about these things, if we are to indeed address the surface--female authors that demonize male characters..... |
Thumper
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 06:59 am: |
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Hello All,
Yukio: I agree with you. I think one of the reasons we keep coming back to this question is that we want to go beyond the surface and don't know how to get there. Frankly, I'm not moved by producing positive black male characters. The books that feature these positive black male characters bore me. The black male is so unrealistic its cartoonish.
Yukio, you asked that we be real. I agree and I will. I believe that those female writers and readers who constantly wants to see these positive black male characters don't really KNOW men. Many want this tall, strong, black male image that they have cemented rose colored glasses to their heads in order to NOT look a men in a real light. Reality is not romantic. No man is all one thing. I have see the wives will swear up and down how good her husband is, yet the man has 3 or 4 kids by different women while he's still married to her. And sure, there are some men who are considered "good men" in their older years, who were natural hellions in their youth. There are more than one side to a man, and many of these women are afraid of realizing that for it questions their womanhood, and will cause them to look in a place that they rather not...themselves. So, it is important that these women have literature to support and not dispute their idea of what a man is and isn't. |
Anita
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 08:12 am: |
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Thumper, you're the bomb!!!!! |
blaquetech
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 10:08 am: |
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I agree with Thumper. Writers write what they know, experience and feel. It would be unrealistic for the typical women to only write about "good" black men.
Folks that only want to read about men in a romantic sence should stick to romance novels.
Strong characters usually have positive and negative traits. |
Chris Hayden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 10:37 am: |
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Yukio and Thumper:
Do you feel the same way about the depiction of women? One of the big criticisms of Sapphire's PUSH was that Precious had no redeeming characteristics--yet she was based on real characters. How did you feel about Precious?
I am to assume then, that if books portray black women as liars, schemers, dope addicts, unfaithful betrayers, cowardly, stupid--as real people are--then you have no problem with it?
How about a book about a black woman such as one involved in a case here, who got "tired" of her daughter and embarked on a systematic regimin of torture and neglect, which resulted in the child, who was four years old, weighing about the same as a two year old and, in the words of the examining physician, "having no spot on her body unscarred and unbruised"? Maybe something showing her in a sympathetic light.
Maybe I am more sensitive toward this as a black male. OK, I am. I don't see black women depicted as monsters in lit like black men are. There are no female Biggers, female Misters--for instance, gay women seem to get a pass.All gay women I have read about are loving and understanding and do not brutalize, screw over and murder their partners as happens in real life.
I have seen no strong women characters with truly negative traits (I'm not talking about not being able to get a man like in Terry McMillain or being promiscuous, I'm talking about being outright lowlife and criminal--)--
And, coming on the heels of hundreds of years of depiction of black women as submissive, dumb, ever loyal mule like mammies, flighty idiots, or fast black jezebels, I don't think this is a bad thing.
When people are crying out to see more positive black men in literature they are crying out for something that, heretofore, has not been there. |
K
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 11:40 am: |
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I have to apologize my original post was short sided. I was responding to a discussion I'd had about Walker's Meridian (With white people). I was kind of frustrated because I realized that for some it is the only contact they have with us. If they see the black male monster on the page every black male they see afterward with be that black male monster real or imagined.
I personally am insulted by novels with the ideal black male character because as a culture we are much more multidemensional than that.
Chris, I thought Prescious was very redeemable. Her mother wasn't. |
Beautifulwaterstar
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 11:47 am: |
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DANG! You all have some INTERESTING points!
Chris actually posted something on this before I could, but my thing is this: people are people are people. "People" tend to lie, cheat, steal, kill, blame, nut up.. "People" do these things in "real life", not just men, not just women...
It's like if people wanna deal with reality, COOL, but keep in mind that Truth is not limited to "Truth" as a woman sees it or "Truth" as a man sees it or "Truth" as it sounds cute; Truth is definitely not something with one side but it is something that is indifferent to people's perceptions about it..
Anyway, reality is "Trevor just did Ebony sooo wrong. She was 7 months pregnant with HIS child and he slept with her best friend!" Reality is "Dang, Ebony just had that baby and the paternity test showed that it ain't even much TREVOR'S!" lol Basically people in general tend to do screwed up stuff, not just men, not just women.
However, the writer (as someone kinda previously stated) often tends to write things as he/she would like to have them portrayed(and most often for better sales), knowing full well that there are many more parts to the story.
Plus people LOVE drama. There are alottttt of hurting women who just ain't too happy with men for the most part and knowing this, authors are quick to write male bashing books (lol even men!). Likewise, there are alot of hurting women who just feel that women ain't crap these days and other authors go after this crowd, too, not so much because of "their" passion but because of the potential profit in the passions of others (whether it's messed up or not).. |
Yukio
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 03:17 pm: |
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Respondents: Perhaps we need to consider what some of us are really talking about...are we talking about race relations, art, commercial fiction, black pride, black psychology, etc....though all of these categories are related, we should consider where we are coming from...as yourself what your comments are about and then share....my comments pertained to interested in african & african diasporic literary literature.
Chris H & Thumper: I haven't read Sapphire, so i have no comment. As for ya'll comments about "real people", YES...i do want to read about real people, three dimensional characters, which often means that these people will simultaneously be good, bad, evil, and innocent in different parts of the story. Also, i failed to discuss literature in general, for if we are to discuss character developement, then we must address to some degree some of the essential elements of fiction, such as the narrative and theme,for example. I'm not interested in just "good," "nice," "bad," and/ or "wicked" characters; they must facilitate and enhance the fiction, so my comments were not meant to be purely abstracted to what "real people" do. When i read, i as i believe we all should, place the characters within the context of the story and theme, asking Why is this character in this story and/or What purpose does this characters' personality serve? Does this character have anything to do with the theme, if so what part? etc...
Also, read Gayl Jones' Eva's Man as well as the response of other black writers and the black community.
K: you shouldn't be concerned with what white folks think about our literature. We can have characters with the most redeemable, affable qualities and "race relations," will not change.
Respondents:
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Thumper
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 05:54 pm: |
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Hello All,
Chris: Actually, I don't have a problem showing female characters in a "negative" light at all. I read Sapphire's Push. I love Precious. Precious had plenty of redeeming qualities; her learning how to read, raising her baby, escaping from the Hell her mother made for her. What's there NOT to love about Precious? I believe that with good writing, the characters are going to be three dimensional anyway. Good fiction, whether commercial or literature, demands it. But, the question that hasn't been answered is the politics that lie behind the opinions that Precious is not a good role model, or a "positive" black female character?
Yukio: My comments are based on fiction, commercial and literature. I am more interested in why we can't get away from categorizing black characters, male and female, as "negative" and "positive"? Why are the majority of women readers wanting "positive" black male characters and not three dimensional black male characters? The answer can't simply be escapism. There has to be more to it than that. Why do we have writers who claim to write books that "promote" "positive" black male characters? Could it be as one person told me, its for profit only because these writers just want to make money from an audience that demands these types of one dimensional characters? I believe so. Could the female writer be suffering from the same affliction as her audience, yep. I also believe that many of the writers that tote this line simply ain't capable...that's right I said it and meant it...capable of creating three dimensional characters.
I don't see one dimensional, "positive" or "negative" characters in any of Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, Gayl Jones novels, to name a few female authors. There are female writers who produces fine three dimensional characters, male and female. As I stated with Chris, let's look for the reasons these people would classify Mr. from The Color Purple as being "negative". Is it environment, life experience, politics...? What?
Chris: back to you...*smile*...it has been said, more than once, that Richard Wright was not kind to his black female charcters. Wright, unlike many of our present day commercial fiction writers, could create three dimensional characters. His excuse? Actually, there are loads of books that feature black female characters as "criminals" and the likes: The Upper Room by Mary Monroe for one. Mama Ruby was a MESS! Gloria Mallett's new book The Honey Well features a mother who makes her daughter a prostitute and when the girl rises above that and gets on with her life, the mother starts blackmailing her. There are books out here that offers more than the coroporate, goody two shoes, sista girlfriend characters. |
AnonymousX
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 10:20 pm: |
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Thumper, agreed. And, not only that, but in the sista girlfriend books, the female characters are shown to be as Chris wrote: "liars, schemers, dope addicts, unfaithful betrayers, cowardly, stupid". Many of them keep selecting those guys who they know are "liars, schemers, dope addicts, unfaithful betrayers, cowardly, stupid", as well, and then wonder why the relationships don't work out. Now how crazy is that?
The females characters in these books don't fair any better than the male characters, in my estimation. |
Woman on a Break
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 04:25 pm: |
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Chris, hate to break it to you, but in Real Life, regardless of "color"--males of every group have more power than females just by the fact that they can lay down, have sex and not get pregnant. Males can also bed as many people as they like without negative social stigma, in fact they're celebrated for being whores, and they can declare war on other nations.
Men have more freedom to hold their crotch in public and more power to get up and walk out.
For this reason, there tends to be MORE "male" monsters in the world than female ones. That goes for white men, black men, whatever.
Black women being at the bottom of the food chain experience far more interaction with the worst of the monsters--be they white or black. And no one has mentioned the HORRIBLE and evil depictions of WHITE MEN in the works of Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, others. What fascinates me about Walker's work, the black women seem to have their own race separate from men, there's an underlying lesbian theme ALWAYS. But in the work of Walker's protege (and your unlikely choice in a pen pal, Chris) Kola Boof, the black women also seem to have their own separate race--but instead of a lesbian theme, the women are just WHORISH--they use men for sex, tease, manipulate and seduce the men, pat them on the head, and then run back to their ALL WOMANIST political flock to love and admire one another and their "GOD"--a black woman. Still, in Kola's work, I'm surprised by the plentifulness of female monsters. She has it 50/50 with the most dastardly villains being white men and white women.
In Gayl Jones's work, the women are TURNED into monsters by the men. They're all bad in her books.
There's an excellent book you should read, a conversation between Gloria Naylor and Toni Morrison as they discuss this topic in detail, because Naylor had worried so much about defaming and alienating black men in her books. Imagine black men writing such a book.
Thumper is right. Richard Wright's depictions of black women (and mainly his quest to make them invisible) was akin to anything Walker has written. Then we have the real flat out black women haters such as Amiri Baraka (the guy who called Condi Rice a "skeezer", because he doesn't agree with her politics), the same guy who basically says in his fiction that all black women, except the light ones, are ugly. This man, you recall, is supposed to be PRO BLACK. Ishmael Reed is another one whose works paint black women negatively. Ditto Stanley Crouch. His total unmitigated attack on Morrison's novel "BELOVED" was just plain sexist and highlighted how much he devalues all black women. Some Halle Berry look'n woman must have rejected his ugly butt and now we have all have to suffer.
Finally, I wonder how this question would play out if we focused on the definite hatred for black females expressed in the much larger and more influential world of "music videos", rap music, Hip hop culture, etc. There's no doubting that black women are either invisible or totally despised and scandalized in those realms.
The fact is, black women have just as much right as any other people to write down their particular life experiences and how those experiences shaped their lives. All too often, becuase of the social pecking order, black women are disrespected, abused and dismissed as simply "bitter" more than other groups of women, and you can do more against a black woman and get away with it. So this is reflected in the literature of black women.
New Trend I've noticed---white, latina and Asian women writing about their despicable interractions with black male love relationships. It seems they often reach the same conclusions as black women, but nobody's calling them "bitter" yet. Very interesting.
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Chris Hayden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 05:02 pm: |
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Woman on a Break:
You can't break anything to me--even though you are on a break. I am old and set in my ways.
This is a conversation I have been participating in seems like about thirty five years and it will probably go on after I am gone without resolution because it involves strong emotions. We all come to this discussion hot from the last one and with the idea of this or that mean mistreater in our minds.
Nevertheless, I will respond. I had taken up the point Yukio and Thumper raised about positive black male images in literature.
As I writer I lean toward the art for art sake, write what you want, we need three dimensional characters side.
As a member of the black community I acknowlege that all art is politics. I realize that Fiction does not just entertain. Fiction also instructs. In addition to tellling a story it presents the ideal, the image to strive for.
This is the point of the parables and stories in the Bible. In our folk tales. The Iliad, for example, was not just a tale about Gods and combat and women whose faces launched a thousand ships--it was an illustration to Greek citizen warriors of the bad things that happen when you leave the ranks--the whole object of the poem the Iliad not being about Helen of Troy but that Achilles is angry at his comrades because he feels he is unjustly treated and therefore sulks in his tent--which brings calamity on them and results in the death of his best friend.
All that to say this--if black men are always depicted negatively then what is the message? They are no good. What is to aspire to? Why try to break this unending cycle where we all seem to be just trapped with each other?
The last time I looked nobody was keeping black women from complaining about their bad experiences with black men--au contraire--they are free to speak their minds on the subject at length and at liberty. As they should. I mention my admiration for the work of Sapphire. She is a survivor of incest. The perp was her father.
She explained when we asked her about it, that she did not hate men. She hated the bad things some men do. I have to say amen to that.
I cannot speak for any other black man nor can I vouch with what is on their minds. Crouch, I hate him anyway. Wright and Reed I think don't like black women. Baraka is crazy and will say anything.
A man may be free to grab his crotch, but he must take the consequences of this rude and disgusting behavior (I have not noticed the Pope doing it, nor George Bush, nor anyone other than showbiz entertainers, who are clowns thugs and trash anyway and always have been and are no role models.
I have no problem with anyone taking me or anybody else to task for the ugly or bad things they do.
I am saying, where is the balance? I don't think there is any.
To women who have been beaten, mistreated, lied to, defamed, or whatever by men, I do not deny that these things have happened. However I didn't do it. I refuse to take any responsibility for anything anyone else did. You need to go find that m'fer, or call him out, or do something.
I think, as I have found in this neverending discussion over the past thirty five years, our problem with it is that we are attempting to solve a personal problem with a group wide response. Chris if you will acknowlege that black men do wrong, then Willie over there will treat me right.
The point is to make Willie do right or leave his sorry butt alone. |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 05:03 pm: |
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In a recent intereview, Toni Morrison said it took her a while to realize that white people influenced how she portrayed black men. She did not want to give them grist for their mill, so she sanitized her black male characters.
Then she decided to tell it like it is. |
Chris Hayden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 05:12 pm: |
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Cynique: I admire people who tell it how it is. You can look over at my contributions to the waterstar story and see that (or find evidence of my moral depravity)
Woman on A Break: I forgot add that you should stay off Cynique and Kola Boof's cases. I do everything they say. |
ABM
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 06:37 am: |
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It always amazes me how women can birth and raise males yet blame men solely for ALL of their woeful female troubles.
Every man is 1/2 female. The devil you decry is made of, by and for you. |
solomonjones
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 11:06 am: |
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I try to draw my characters--both male and female--as flawed human beings. I don't do that to advance any political or social agenda. I do it because I haven't come across any purely good or evil people in my experience. Ironically, my tendency to portray addicts or drug dealers or women or men, or cops or robbers, or whomever, as real people with a wide range of feelings, emotions and motivations, is offputting to readers who prefer their characters a little more one-dimensional. Which is cool with me, because it gives them the opportunity to enjoy other black writers whose work is more suitable to their tastes.
Regarding those who believe that whites gain some insights--be they negative or positive--about black people from black literature, I can assure you of one thing. Whites do not read black literature in great numbers. I've done signings across the country, and white bookstore customers tend to do the same thing that many whites tend to do in other social situations. That is, they see a black face at that signing table, and that face becomes invisible. They will literally avert their eyes to avoid dealing with the fact that there is a black author sitting there, trying to sell them a book. This is not to say that all whites are that way. They aren't. And there are certainly black writers who enjoy the patronage of many white readers. But in my experience, the vast majority of white readers, if they do not know you, will refuse to even acknowledge your existence. So I don't think that giving negative attributes to black characters, male or female, does anything to change how white readers view black people. Because sadly, in many cases, white readers don't view black people at all.
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Kathleen Cross
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 05:16 pm: |
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I’ve been away for a while, and I know I picked a heck of a subject to jump back in on, but I couldn’t stay out of this conversation.
There is no doubt in my mind that a writer’s individual life experience greatly influences EVERYTHING in the writing process. Plot, theme and the drawing of characters are all deeply connected to who we are as individuals, what has or hasn’t happened to us in our lives (and the lives of those we know), and what we care to say to (or withhold from) the reader. Writers do have something to say – that is why we write.
The term “tell it like it is” is misleading. I can tell it like it is to me, or I can tell it like it is to her or him, but I can’t “tell it like IT is” because “it” is never that cut and dried. There really are abusive men like Mister in The Color Purple (fiction), and there really are abusive women, like Mrs. Pickett in Finding Fish (non-fiction). Evil is a necessary part of good. Good cannot really exist without it – the question becomes who gets to describe evil, and whether the tone and texture of evil is as diverse on the page as it is in real life. That is where an author gets to “tell it like it…sometimes is” and that is where, as an author, I’m committed to exploring new archetypes for black men and women that challenge readers to stretch their ideas about “good” and “bad” people.
As a reader, I’ve had enough of black men and dark-skinned black women being written into the plot as the evil antagonist. So, as a writer, I wrote something I wanted to read. Something with mahogany-toned sistas who are beautiful and wise, and intelligent, caring brothas who aren’t trifling.
In my novel, Skin Deep, the co-protagonist (there are 2 main characters) Ahmad, is an intelligent, spiritual, paternal, sexy, kind, compassionate, brown brotha who is looking for a beautiful brown sista to love – he cannot even see Nina who is half black but looks white. That “flaw” is one of the things that endears him to readers most – He is not trying to have anything to do with white people – or with Nina who is half white – and based on his life experiences, it is understandable. Ahmad is patterned after the MANY intelligent, caring, spiritual, paternal, kind, compassionate, sexy black men I’ve been blessed to know in my lifetime.
Meanwhile Nina, the other main character, is “dogged” by Derrick, a brotha who is attracted to her because she looks white – he ends up cheating on her with, you guessed it, a white woman. Though Derrick (a character based on some “jungle feverish” brothas I’ve come across in my life) seems to be all bad, later in the story we find that Nina had her own (weak) reasons for being with a man like Derrick and she participated in her own “dogging” which, in my opinion, is USUALLY the case in real life.
It is rare that a woman doesn’t see a man for what he is EARLY on, and if we get burned by a man, it is usually because we chose to stay in a situation that we knew wasn’t going to be good for us. If you are a child and a man is taking advantage of you, that’s another story, but a grown woman has to take responsibility for what and who she chooses to let in her life – even (or, especially) if she is wounded or scarred. As such, if a novel has a “bad” guy in it, the writer has to tell me why he/she’s there and what I’m going to learn from why he/she’s there. If that doesn’t happen, it just comes across as bashing.
I have incredible respect for authors because I know the dedication and sweat it takes to get a book written, published and on the shelf, and I would never part my lips to tell any writer what NOT to write. If you create a family that’s too “huxtable-ish” folks say it’s unrealistic. If you create a family like Winter Santiago’s in The Coldest Winter Ever, you’re reinforcing stereotypes.
I guess the bottom line is, authors will continue to tell it like we see it and buyers will tell us whether the way we see it is interesting. You can please some of the people some of the time…
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Carey
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 07:50 pm: |
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Well hello Kathleen, it's good to see you drop in and give us a holler. That was a very nice post, concise and to the point.
For all of you that don't know it, Kathleen is a gifted writer and educator that has appeared on Oprah, Donahue and the Montel Williams Show. Her book "Skin Deep" is a very good read. The last time Kathleen stopped by someone had posted a questions of what would you do if you could be white for one day or something along those lines. Kathleen couldn't resist jumping in because it's something she deals with on a regular basis and is one of the themes in her book.
So Kathleen, is a new book on the horizon? What are you doing these days? We haven't heard from you in awhile, to what do we owe this visit?
Carey |
Kathleen Cross
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 10:04 pm: |
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Hello Carey and thanks for that warm welcome back.
Man, I've had a rough year, and I honestly wasn't sure if I'd ever write again for a couple months there. Last October my fiance/best friend/ confidant/counselor/soulmate drowned in the ocean while trying to save the life of a friend caught in a riptide. I have learned firsthand the meaning of the word DISTRAUGHT. I am also intimately acquainted with other words such as SHATTERED, PISSED, DEVASTATED, WITHDRAWN, DEEPLY LOVED (my daughters are the bomb) and, thank God, RESILIENT.
We've all heard that the Creator never gives you more than you can bear, but damn if He didn't come REALLY CLOSE on this one. It took me awhile to really care to stay in this world without Todd. But here I be. And I'm learning to live each day looking forward. Still, I am the only person I know who saw the movie "Message in a Bottle" and LOVED the ending.  (Ya gotta see the movie to know what that means)
I do have a new book on the horizon -- "Schooling Carmen". HarperCollins/Avon is publishing it (2004). I have to give them and my editor there props, because they were veeerrry patient with me through all of this. My deadline came and went several times and they hung in there with me.
The book is (YAY) finished and the final edits are done as is the cover art, so at this point I'm just waiting to get my pub date from my editor.
I have been "hovering" around in here for a few weeks now, hiding in the shadows so to speak. I came out into the light to offer my two cents on the issue of demonizing folks in fiction. Glad I did.
Carey, as soon as Schooling Carmen is released, I will be sending you an autographed copy.
Peace and Blessings
Kathleen
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Carey
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 11:27 pm: |
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Hello Kathleen
I feel you, I too lost my best friend, my soulmate, my joy, my rock, my lover, I lost my wife this year and life for me at this time is a challenge. I know what you meant when you said you didn't know if you wanted to carry on without Todd. Ann passed away in May and today I'am still lost. I don't know how to do this but I carry on. They say it gets better but I have a hard time of understanding that. Life is different now and the joy of it is gone. It's interesting that you dropped by and told us of your struggle and that there is a light on the other side because something else happened today. I became a grandfather for the first time. My daughter, the one I gave your book to as a gift, had a 6lb 13oz boy today! This must be a God thing. You gave me hope and a new life came into my world. I suppose I do have something to stick around for, I have to be grandpa. Thanks for sharing!
Carey |
ON POINT
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 12:14 am: |
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Kathleen Cross,
I read your book "Skin Deep" and I appreciated it for what it was. I was also in agreement with everything you said in your post until you accused Sister Souljah's book "Coldest Winter Ever" of having too many stereotypes.
I totally disagree with you on that point. Like so many people who are acutely familiar with the "hood" and involved with black music business nowadays (that would be me)--"Coldest Winter Ever" was the most realistic and On Point portrayal I've read thus far. Not only that, but I'm assuming you're more than a little put off by Souljah's truthful rendering of a lightskinned ghetto girl who becomes overwhelmed by the "attention" she gets just for being a certain color with a certain hair texture, and goes on to do what most women in that situation just can't help but do--"take advantage of it". She turns into a real materialistic, vane little snot and that was more than real and all too familiar. Souljah was ON POINT.
I liked Souljah's book more than I liked yours, and I ain't being sarcastic, because even though BOTH books were preachy--yours was basically written through the prism of a colored woman who can PASS for WHITE (YOU) and the desire to be accepted as black, while Souljah highlighted the disrespect that so many White looking women like yourself have historically shown "real" black women, but now all of a sudden that being Colorstruck is NO LONGER EN VOGUE--you want to come out and paint yourselves as "sistas" who always had our back, etc.
Girl, you and me were Riding Buddies until you put down Sista Souljah's book. Her book is a classic, it will be studied for years to come, because it is truly the first real exploration of hip hop culture via literature. It was On Point.
One more thing. Is "brown" half-white Nina supposed to be the darkskinned heroine you were talking about?
(**rolling my eyes)
Sorry, but Souljah got serious fans in New Yawk. Thought U knew.
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Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:20 am: |
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Don't trip, ON POINT -- You TOTALLY misunderstood my point about the Coldest Winter Ever. I wasn't saying Souljah was reinforcing stereotypes...I was saying that if you go where she went, that's what folks accuse you of. If you don't go there, you're accused of being "unrealistic" I was trying to say that you can't win either way, so you should just write what you feel and let the chips fall where they may. I guess posting in a forum like this leaves you open to being misunderstood -- that's the risk we take in posting and its the reason I don't do it often.
I personally thought The Coldest Winter was ALL THAT, and I will agree with you that it was better than mine. Definitely better written, and a story more people could relate to than Skin Deep. It was raunchy and gritty which meant some people couldn't handle it, but I thought she was "telling it like it...sometimes is" -- it was a vibrant slice of life.
I know Sister Souljah got a lot of flack for portraying a young black female as self-centered, materialistic and criminal-minded, but I am not one of the ones criticizing her AT ALL. I loved Winter Santiago. I understood how she got wounded and how that affected her choices. I think Sister Souljah put her FOOT in that book and when I picked it up I could NOT put it down. I had all three of my daughters read it. I thought there were some very good lessons in it -- which was the point of my post in the first place -- if a so-called negative character is introduced, just give me a reason why she's bad and give me something to learn from her, and I'm not mad.
As far as the "brown" heroine you referred to that's missing in my novel -- Skin Deep wasn't about a brown woman. However, I did have to FIGHT to keep Tonya (who really is the smart voice in Skin Deep) mahogany-toned and beautiful. My editor initially did not like the warm adjectives I used to describe Tonya, and she didn't want Ahmad to be attracted to Tonya over Nina. (Said it made him less heroic) Well, I thought it made him more heroic to look past Nina to see Tonya's beauty, and I fought (several emotional phone calls back and forth) to keep it in.
There are two brown-skinned women in Skin Deep -- Mrs. Moore, who loved and raised a little girl who wasn't hers, and Tonya, who is just the bombest friend a woman could have. As an author I had the opportunity to portray brown-skinned women in a warm light, and I took it.
I remember reading Elizabeth Atkins Bowman's White Chocolate and just tripping because all the brown-skinned characters are jealous of the light-skinned biracial one. My first reaction was to be angry at Elizabeth, but then I don't know her life or her experiences that led her to write her novel in her way -- I just know the ones that led me to write mine. So the only thing I can do is continue to write stories that I believe challenge our ideas about who is supposed to be beautiful, lovable, trustworthy, etc.
Wait til' Schooling Carmen comes out -- I'm really gonna get it for exploring the tension between black and latino folks in southern cali.
One more thing--
I was raised by loving brown-skinned women who taught me the truth about where real beauty comes from -- I know in my SOUL that the eurocentric ideal of beauty is a lie -- I am not one of those light-hued sistas you refer to who disrespected brown girls until it got "vogue" to be black. That just isn't me and never will be. That was an insult -- everything else you said was all good.
From one Sistah Souljah fan to another. (No Disrespect was the joint too.)
It's all love,
Kathleen
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Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:40 am: |
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Carey,
I am so sorry to hear of your loss. Please know that you and your shattered heart are in my prayers. (And your new little grandbaby is too)
It has been a little over a year since Todd died, and I don't cry everyday anymore. The first few months were just excruciating. I had to struggle to eat enough food and drink enough liquid to stay alive -- I really just wanted to go "home."
I don't cry as often or as loudly as I did back then, and I am able to look forward to the future now, but no matter what folks say, I know this ache is permanent. I am learning to live with this loss -- but I don't like it one bit. I'm still angry sometimes and I question God's plan some days, and yet, there is no question in my mind that I am one of the lucky ones to have known this kind of love.
I don't know if you can relate to this, but I still feel in some ways as if my future is a PONDEROUSLY HEAVY suitcase (no wheels) that I have no choice but to carry around for the rest of my life. I look in the darned thing to see why its so freakin' heavy, and I don't see anything in it!
I bet all my future grandchildren are in there weighing it down, huh? You are right, Carey, that is a good reason to stay around -- thanks for reminding me
If you can use an ear, please let me know. I know how hard it is for folks to deal with a person in mourning -- sometimes it's nice to have someone "hear" you without trying to heal you. |
InPrint
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 10:35 am: |
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Cynique-
Could you tell me where that interview is where Morrison is talking about how whites influenced her depiction of black men? My students are tackling womanism at the moment, and I'd love to give them that to chew on. Thanks.
I must say, I've been disappointed with the last two opening lines from her books. It's not that I resent her gender view in itself as much, rather that it seems dogmatic, limiting for such an impressive mind. People get older, more set in there ways, more off on their tangents. I can't even think of a long-lived writer who didn't go off on into their personal deep end. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 11:48 am: |
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InPrint:
The interview I made reference to is in the November-December copy of "Black Issues" magazine. Toni is on the cover. I haven't started "LOVE" yet. I'm trying not to be influenced by what others are saying about this book - but to no avail. Guess I'll just plunge in. |
Beautifulwaterstar
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 12:18 pm: |
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Dang@ Carey (And CONGRATULATIONS, Grandpa! hehe) and Kathleen Much light to you! I must admit, though, just reading what you two have had to say about your experiences has been extremely inspiring. (If I write a poem about it soon, please don't accuse me of being super duper weird, just super wierd, mmkay? :-) ) Take care.
(Cynique, I ain't even gon' ask you why you ain't put yo' 2 cents in the story in the other post.
:-) Which brings me to.. WHERE'S LAMBD!?)
Okay, no more post hijacking from me, no sirree Buddy. *crossing toes* :-) |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 12:19 pm: |
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On Point: "The Coldest Winter Ever" left me cold, alright. Why everybody thinks it's such a definitive novel I don't know. The main female character may have been typical of how things are in provincinal New York, and because you New Yorkers think you are the cener of the universe, you assume what you exemplify should be extolled. Sista Souljah's book was a badly-written case a history of a self-absorbed character with no redeemable qualitites. It was somewhat interesting in its revelations about a certin lifestyle, but a monumental work, it was not. And nobody but people who call themselves hip-hop are impressed with the hip hop culture. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 12:36 pm: |
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Kathleen Cross: I find it interesting that you've apparently upgraded your writing to portraying your protagonists as mahogany and brown-skinned, but apparently there is still a reluctance on the part of you and others to feature ebony, black-skinned ones. ('Just an observation, because I was accused of being guilty of this.) |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 12:51 pm: |
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Beautifulwaterstar: Forgive me, girlfriend, for taking a pass on your serial story but I've got a short attention span and, wow, you guys really got carried away. Also, right now I'm suffering from both writer's and reader's block. I'm currently trying to muster up the enthusiasm to read Toni's book. |
Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:12 pm: |
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CYNIQUE:
I have written ONE published novel, So I'm not sure why you are saying I've "upgraded" to portraying mahogany and brown-skinned protagonists. What I SAID was I knew I had the OPPORTUNITY and the CHOICE in writing my novel to offer readers positive portrayals of mahogany-skinned sistas, so I did.
In a book about skin color, it might have been expected for Nina (who looks white) to use dark-skinned sistas as her "tormenters". I don't know about you, but I've seen that mean dark-skinned sista in fiction one time too damn many, and every time it's done, it irks me to no end. I was not down for perpetuating that stereotype, so I didn't. Authors CHOOSE. They do. When we sit at our keyboards we DECIDE what our characters will look, sound, smell and be like. (There is a rare exception when characters write themselves, but that is another post)
When I sat down to write my first novel, I started with a theme I know -- I wrote a story loosely based on my experiences as a woman whose phenotype does not reflect the genetic contribution of her black parent. My novel juxtaposes a white-looking character's experiences with the experiences of Black Americans whose phenotype very distinctly reflects their blackness -- to make a point about racism and skin colorism and the benefits society affords to people who are white or light skinned.
Reluctance? What the hell?
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 02:43 pm: |
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I apologize for not being familiar with your work, Kathleen, but the point I was making was that you were almost patting yourself on the back for giving equal time to brown/mahogany skinned people as if this was something new. I keep hearing people talk about woman who aren't light-skinned being given short-shrift in black novels. But do they? It seems to me brown is the color to be. High-yellow or blue-black characters are often stigmatized. I think the sticking point with us is how we perceive color. I classify AA's into 3 colors: yellow, brown and black. I don't think elevating a brown-skinned character compensates for ignoring a dark-skinned one. But as you say, we don't necessarily tell it like it is, but how it is to us.
On another note, I feel your pain about your great loss, especially the circumstances of it. It may be a cliche but "it is better to have loved and lost than not to have loved at all." Take care and stay strong.
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Beautifulwaterstar
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:37 pm: |
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Anno nuttn, Sis. @Cynique
Plus we "did" get a lil' carried away, huh? hehe (Chris starrrted it!)On another note, what is your creative self doin' with any type of block? No, no, no. I simply REFUSE to believe THAT! |
ON POINT
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:38 pm: |
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Kathleen--
Like I said, I dig your writing. Your book was good. Thanks for clearing that up about "WInter". You're a classy lady and you got guts. I will ALWAYS support you.
Cynique, thanks for expressing my points better than I could. That's all I was trying to say is that the majority of black women are definite browns to deep chocolate and historiclaly have been invisible in books, movies, etc. unless they were portrayed as maids, little girls or grandmother. I am light brown but I know many beautiful, sexy, desirable women with deep ebony colored skin who could be the romantic lead in some of these books and movies if black people weren't hung up on light bright white.
Both of yall is ON POINT. Thanks for the shout out.
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Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:39 pm: |
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Posting in here requires a real leap of faith -- faith that the words we type can adequately reflect what we are feeling and thinking.
I hesitated to jump in this conversation because more than anything in the world it PAINS me not to be able to clearly communicate (I'm a writer -- I'm supposed to able to do that) I'm not sorry I posted, but I am frustrated.
I hate that it came across in my previous post like I was trying to pat myself on the back (yuk)-- I'm just trying to say that when it comes to demonizing or not demonizing folks -- authors get to choose.
I believed mahogany to be a dark wood -- which is why I used it as an adjective to describe Tonya -- initially my (white) editor did not find it CREDIBLE that Ahmad would look past Nina to admire a dark-brown-skinned woman. My manuscript came back to me the first time with the warm descriptors for Tonya crossed out in red. It required a FIGHT to keep Tonya dark and beautiful and to have Ahmad see her as more attractive than Nina, and if my agent was not a highly sucessful and respected black woman (whom my editor deferred to), I wonder how much harder that fight might have been.
I think you are absolutely right about the sticking point being how we perceive color. Classifying African Americans into yellow, brown and black leaves me out. I'm not yellow (not even with a good tan) and I'm African American. That's precisely what prompted me to write Skin Deep.
The human experience is so diverse and challenge-filled, and how we deal with our own and others' skin color seems to be one of the greatest challenges of all.
Regarding "It is better to have loved and lost..."
In the initial months after Todd died I hated that cliche, but my heart has healed enough for me to know that it is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Thank you for your condolences and for your words of encouragement. They are appreciated and NEEDED.
Peace and Abundance to you,
Kathleen
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ON POINT
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:44 pm: |
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Love U Kathleen. Hope you read my post before the one you wrote.
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Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:45 pm: |
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ON POINT:
Thank you, sista.
All love,
Kathleen |
Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 03:47 pm: |
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ON POINT
We were writing at the same time.
We still riding buddies?
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ON POINT
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 04:14 pm: |
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Yeah, girl we riding buddies!! LOL
And your book was GOOD. After the second one, watch how more people will go back and buy the first one.
Keep on keep'n on Sista.
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Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 09:49 pm: |
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Hello Kathleen
"A PONDEROUSLY HEAVY SUITCASE" "FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE" Can I relate, I sure can! "sometimes it's nice to have someone "hear" you without trying to heal you". Ain't that the thruth. I appreciate their concern but if they really understood, as they say they do, they wouldn't try too "cure" me. I know you know what I mean. I loved my wife, we became adults together. We had our first child when we were teenagers. When I say I don't know how to do this (life without her) I really mean it( I know you know). How about waking up from a dream about your man realizing it was a dream and those instant dreadful feelings that follow. Yes, it's a heavy load. Thanks again for sharing your pain with me.
I felt bad about pulling you back on the board. They can get a little scandalous around here but of course you handled it in a very humble and professional manner.
Hey, you do remember our last book thang don't you *LOL*. Well don't have me jackin' up my slacks again. I'll be lookin' for that book....autographed of course
Carey |
Kathleen Cross
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 07, 2003 - 11:09 pm: |
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Carey,
I am getting old(er) and my memory fails me at times, but I DEFINITELY remember you threatening to jack up your slacks on me. I will be sending your complimentary autographed book EXPRESS mail! ;) *LOL*
And yeah, it does get thick up in here, huh? Fortunately it's thick with opinions, wisdom AND love, so it's all good. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 08:50 am: |
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InPrint:
"It's not that I resent her gender view in itself as much, rather that it seems dogmatic, limiting for such an impressive mind."
Could explain this comment please. How has she been dogmatic? Also, I'm not sure which books you're talking about--paradise and love or paradise and jazz. Also, where would her perspective go if it wasn't "dogmatic"? |
Nubianem
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:40 am: |
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TWO TYPES OF BLACK WOMEN ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANTI-BLACK MALE BOOKS, THEY ARE:
BLACK SAME-SEXERS WHO ARE FEMINISTS AND HATE MEN AND BLACK MEN SPECIFICALLY
BLACK WOMEN MARRIED TO WHITE MEN WHO HIDE THEIR RACISM OR ARE SUBTLY RACIST AND INFLUENCE THEIR BLACK SPOUSES.
However, a person like me who have been writing around the world since 1974 and have published countless articles and books will never get the type of publicity from a certain element in some places. Books that enlighten, uplift and contribute to Black self-confidence for the Black male, female and nation is usually rejected.
Yet, these same book may be popular in parts of India, Europe, England or some other place where the Blacks are so oppressed and kept back that the are open to ideas and REFUSE TO LET TRICKSTERS DIVIDE THEM.
The crop of female writers dogging Black men (while sleeping with the greatgrand and grand children of the people who raped Black women en mass during slavery, lynched their sons and continue to commit genocide through confinement, exposing to diseases and abominal sexual practices and destruction.)
They writers of these anti-Black male books have seem to forget that Black men and Black women were both raped, bred, experimented on, lynched, burned at the stake, quartered, tarred feathered and burned alive... (read "A History of Racism and Terrorism, Rebellion and Overcoming," pub. by www.xlibris.com also see http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiempire )
THE WILLIE LYNCH LETTER
The misdirected "hatred" there is supposed to be by some Black women for some Black men is part of the conspiracy that Willie Lynch, the slave owner from Barbadose who visited a Virginia plantation in the 1700's and presented a plan for controlling, dividing, brainwashing and turning Africans into obedient slaves and haters of self, is responsible for the techniques of "turning the male slave against the female slave and the female slave against the male slave," and making slaves hate each other and love the slavemaster.
Hence today, you see this very scheme at work. Who pays these Black male haters the millions in royalties to write the degrading and insulting books they write about Black males, but are too chicken to criticize the racists who contribute to the creation of camps all over the country to put Black men and women or pass racist, genocidal laws to keep Blacks behind? It is not the Black man. Who contributes to the elimination and destruction of the sons of these women? It is the system of white supremacy through the use of literature that these female writers support.
Hence the solution is for Black men to get organized and fight fire with fire, fight lies with the truth and make sure the facts are presented. The day will come when writers of "hiphop" and rap music or rhythm and blues will find themselves in a position where they will be laughed at so loudly after the ripper-offs of Black music and culture take over decent Black music and reduce Black writers to writing insulting books about other Blacks or making insulting music that does not contribute to the rising of the Black consciousness or that of other people.
Yet, one thing our ancestors from West Africa, Sudan and the Angola/Kongo region left us was African secret societies and African religions that teach us that we are of the Gods and that our ability to move up and to move forward is as strong and as possible as the ability of the elements to function (rain, wind, hurricane, storms, snow, ect.) whether we like it or not.
The time has come for Black men and women to work together on a global scale. How? This is very easy. Instead of letting Christian and Semitic "missionary" miseducators and destroyers of Black culture corrupt our ancient soul, we must revive these aspects of culture that maintained us for a million years and contributed to our survival. We must read good books that have good ideas and sort out the messages that are created to keep us back and divide us.
The feminists who are responsible for spreading the idea of infanticide and abortion to eliminate Black babies so they are no competition to white children do not care one bit about the Black race. Read the works of Sanger especially "Population Control."
The only people who care about Black people are a few sympathetic other people and Blacks ourselves.
Racism and White Supremacy is at the core of what we are suffering today, including those who promote literature to destroy the image of the Black male.
The time has come for Black men to respond and fight back. Please read more on this issue from the great text, "A History of Racism and Terrorism, Rebellion and Overcoming," published by www.xlibris.com also at www.barnesandnoble.com
See also http://community.webtv.net/nubianem
"HIP-HOP BOOKS AND POEMS"
Nubianem@yahoo.com |
Nubianem
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:55 am: |
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TWO TYPES OF BLACK WOMEN ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR ANTI-BLACK MALE BOOKS, THEY ARE:
BLACK SAME-SEXERS WHO ARE FEMINISTS AND HATE MEN AND BLACK MEN SPECIFICALLY
BLACK WOMEN MARRIED TO WHITE MEN WHO HIDE THEIR RACISM OR ARE SUBTLY RACIST AND INFLUENCE THEIR BLACK SPOUSES.
However, a person like me who have been writing around the world since 1974 and have published countless articles and books will never get the type of publicity from a certain element in some places. Books that enlighten, uplift and contribute to Black self-confidence for the Black male, female and nation is usually rejected.
Yet, these same book may be popular in parts of India, Europe, England or some other place where the Blacks are so oppressed and kept back that the are open to ideas and REFUSE TO LET TRICKSTERS DIVIDE THEM.
The crop of female writers dogging Black men (while sleeping with the greatgrand and grand children of the people who raped Black women en mass during slavery, lynched their sons and continue to commit genocide through confinement, exposing to diseases and abominal sexual practices and destruction.)
They writers of these anti-Black male books have seem to forget that Black men and Black women were both raped, bred, experimented on, lynched, burned at the stake, quartered, tarred feathered and burned alive... (read "A History of Racism and Terrorism, Rebellion and Overcoming," pub. by www.xlibris.com also see http://community.webtv.net/paulnubiaempire )
THE WILLIE LYNCH LETTER
The misdirected "hatred" there is supposed to be by some Black women for some Black men is part of the conspiracy that Willie Lynch, the slave owner from Barbadose who visited a Virginia plantation in the 1700's and presented a plan for controlling, dividing, brainwashing and turning Africans into obedient slaves and haters of self, is responsible for the techniques of "turning the male slave against the female slave and the female slave against the male slave," and making slaves hate each other and love the slavemaster.
Hence today, you see this very scheme at work. Who pays these Black male haters the millions in royalties to write the degrading and insulting books they write about Black males, but are too chicken to criticize the racists who contribute to the creation of camps all over the country to put Black men and women or pass racist, genocidal laws to keep Blacks behind? It is not the Black man. Who contributes to the elimination and destruction of the sons of these women? It is the system of white supremacy through the use of literature that these female writers support.
Hence the solution is for Black men to get organized and fight fire with fire, fight lies with the truth and make sure the facts are presented. The day will come when writers of "hiphop" and rap music or rhythm and blues will find themselves in a position where they will be laughed at so loudly after the ripper-offs of Black music and culture take over decent Black music and reduce Black writers to writing insulting books about other Blacks or making insulting music that does not contribute to the rising of the Black consciousness or that of other people.
Yet, one thing our ancestors from West Africa, Sudan and the Angola/Kongo region left us was African secret societies and African religions that teach us that we are of the Gods and that our ability to move up and to move forward is as strong and as possible as the ability of the elements to function (rain, wind, hurricane, storms, snow, ect.) whether we like it or not.
The time has come for Black men and women to work together on a global scale. How? This is very easy. Instead of letting Christian and Semitic "missionary" miseducators and destroyers of Black culture corrupt our ancient soul, we must revive these aspects of culture that maintained us for a million years and contributed to our survival. We must read good books that have good ideas and sort out the messages that are created to keep us back and divide us.
The feminists who are responsible for spreading the idea of infanticide and abortion to eliminate Black babies so they are no competition to white children do not care one bit about the Black race. Read the works of Sanger especially "Population Control."
The only people who care about Black people are a few sympathetic other people and Blacks ourselves.
Racism and White Supremacy is at the core of what we are suffering today, including those who promote literature to destroy the image of the Black male.
The time has come for Black men to respond and fight back. Please read more on this issue from the great text, "A History of Racism and Terrorism, Rebellion and Overcoming," published by www.xlibris.com also at www.barnesandnoble.com
See also http://community.webtv.net/nubianem
"HIP-HOP BOOKS AND POEMS"
Nubianem@yahoo.com |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:33 am: |
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I just finished enjoying Toni Morrison's latest opus "Love" (which largely seemed to be about anything but what its title proclaim). As she has done so eloquently before, Morrison has crafted an achingly ironic, provocative and tragic tale about the physical and emotional experience and history of Black women. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:37 am: |
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Interestingly, the more I read Morrison's books, the more I find her to be much more judgemental, even condemnatory, of Black women than she is of Black men. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 09:02 am: |
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ABM:
Your comments are so appropriate for this thread.
Hmmmmm....i've also finished Love, but i didn't find her judgemental at all. At any rate, i'll not discuss this for Cynique, yes i do try to assist folk, is reading it. Let us wait for Cynique, so that we three, at least, can discuss your initial comments.
Also, check out the NY Times' review and tell me what you think....
i hope this link works!
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C03E7D91430F932A05753C1A9659C8B6 3 |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 05:25 pm: |
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I haven't finished "Love" yet. I'm taking my time, just "listening" to Toni do her thing. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:25 am: |
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Yukio,
I don't know how you define "judgemental". But to me, Morrison seems to be especially interested in holding an unflattering mirror to Black women. She let's you see how Black women often appear to be each others' and their own worst enemy. I don't think she excuses Whites and Black men of the troubles they cause sistahs, but she don't appear to be quite as interested in belaboring their evils. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 01:12 pm: |
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ABM:
Interesting comments. I would only disagree with your second and last sentence. In response to both, i believe TM is interested in telling her vision of the Story of African Americans, equally exposing the flattering and unflattering stories/experiencees of black people. I do think she is especially harsh on black women. Let us take this up when Cynique is done, so that we three, as well as others if they choose, can participate in the discussion. I really want to discuss this particular book, LOVE. It is quite powerful....i'm in DC, and saturday, i had the pleasure of hearing and witnessing Toni Morrison's genius and beauty. Unfortunately, there wasn't much time to ask questions.
She had written that she has not been especially interested in talking about white people. Her stories are focused on the black experience, and white people only surface as part of the background, expect in Tar Baby. One can, however, appreciate what she may think of white men, in particular, through discursively looking at Beloved. If an ex-slave murders her child at the presence of her slave master, it means that the slave master, the institution of slavery as an economic and political system, and that white men, those you directly profitted from slavery, are Evil. |
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