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Chris Hayden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 10:01 am: | 
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Writer, columnist and biographer Terry Teachout recently said in an interview in belles lettres, A literary review (Sept/Oct 2003)in response to Stanley Crouch's recent statement that white jazz critics have a tendency to promote white jazz players so taht they as critics would not feel alienated from the art form,
"I think what Stanely Crouch wrote about jazz criticism is nonsense, like much, perhaps most, of what he writes about jazz. He's an especially flagrant example of an enthusiast-turned-critic who doesn't know enough about the nuts and bolts of an art form to be able to write about it intelligently" (he went on to say that this opinion was privately shared by nearly all the working jazz musicians he knew who he did not name because they were reluctant to attack an influential critic in public-- )
Does anybody have an opinion about this? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:41 am: |
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Chris:
I'm not a jazz expert but, needless to say, I do a lot of spouting off about the subject. I am reasonably familiar with jazz history but, when all is said and done, I'm just a fan who likes, what I like. I feel that since jazz is such an individual experience, and it can redefine itself in a single original performance, and since it's all about interpretation, I do think its critics tend to be self-important little tin gods who have set themselves up as rigid arbitrators of a musical genre that, ideally, should lend itself to creative flexiblity. I have heard elswhere that white critics, in all of their pseudo hipness, do seem to be star struck. The peripatic Mr. Stanley Crouch may not know what he's talking about or, maybe, the performers who have dismissed him, are the ones he has dismissed... |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:04 pm: |
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Cynique, I SAAAY: Well said...and BRAVO! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:57 pm: |
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And a thumbs up to you, ABM. "Mr.Immigrant" and his "Anonymous" back-up needed to hear what you had to say on the subject they were ranting about. |
Mr. Immigrant
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 01:37 pm: |
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I'm always here Cynique. It's just not wise for a wise man to say too much. I'm certain the web master could tell you that hundreds lurk and watch the car wreck of the few who post.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 01:53 pm: |
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If you have the courage of your convictions, Mr. Immigrant, you wouldn't be so reluctant to be more than just a lurker. And are you recovering from the wounds you sustained from your collision with the board? BTW, your post made you sound like an alter ego of Kola Boof. |
Mr. Immigrant
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 04:06 pm: |
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An alter ego of Kola Boof. "shrugs"
You should get over your paranoia, although like many from the continent, I was amazed by her love for our people. I hear she has sons--that will be her redemption.
But please don't bore me with comparisons. Get on with the chicken pecking you do so well. Since you're no good as a listener, then entertain.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 05:50 pm: |
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Sorry, my dear, but I do not do your bidding. Try to overcome your own tendencies to be boring, and come up with a way to entertain yourself. It's hard to "listen" to what is written, but if you say something interesting, I will read it. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 10:26 am: |
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I started this but had to think about it a bit because I am such a Crouchbasher.
I think it was pretty unfair. The one thing Stanley talks about that he does know something about is jazz.
I'm wondering what agenda this Teachout has. BTW, I emailed this to Crouch at the JWR and the New York Post. I'll let you know if he has a reply. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 10:33 am: |
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Also I don't like to seem paranoid or be a cultural nationalist on this. I don't generally think there is such a thing as "black" music or art and no white person can do it--I only hold that they should do it well and not descend to parody--after all, when you put something out there in art or music or writing it is out there and people are going to pick it up if they like it and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery--
But there seems to be this creeping movement of some white folks to try to take over the blues and jazz (not new. Anyone who is familiar with Ken Burns' JAZZ knows the story of the Originanal New Orleans Jazz Band back in 1918 or so--the leader of which tried to maintain that black people did not create jazz!)
I think this was what Stanley talked about that turned him from a darling of the neocons into a bete noir. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 06:44 pm: |
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Chris,
For a while there, white jazz musicians were kind of like step children, always complaining that they were victims of reverse discrimination. But then they got a foot hold in the industry, and were able to garner some respect, thanks to black jazz men eventually becoming color-blind because they respected good musicianship. And it didn't hurt that whites prevailed in the ranks of jazz critics, not to mention how tradional Jazz is losing its black audience. So maybe ol Stan's opinon holds some water. I could never make up my mind about Crouch, but the things he had to say in "Reconsidering The Souls of Black Folks"
were very compelling. Is he considered a staunch conservative? |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 10:18 am: |
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Cynique:
I think he is often lumped in this group, but I bet he would consider himself more an old time Liberal, a free thinker or Libertarian. |
steve
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 10:28 pm: |
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In case you haven't heard, Book TV is doing a three-hour program about Stanley Crouch on Sunday, Oct. 5
http://www.booktv.org/feature/index.asp?segID=3807&schedID=213
It says that you can e-mail questions to him at booktv@c-span.org
He labels himself a "radical pragmatist," but I've forgotten his definition. I think he also describes himself a universal humanist (Always in Pursuit). |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 12:09 am: |
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Thanks for that information about Stanley Crouch, Steve. Are you still giggin' around? Ornett Coleman was in Chicago this week-end and, boy, have the jazz critics done an about-face on him. He's no longer a purveyor of undisciplined dissonance. Now he is an innovative creative trailblazer who takes key changes to another level. Or something. |
Amitenajah
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 12:38 am: |
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"But please don't bore me with comparisons. Get on with the chicken pecking you do so well. Since you're no good as a listener, then entertain."
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"Sorry, my dear, but I do not do your bidding. Try to overcome your own tendencies to be boring, and come up with a way to entertain yourself."
That was a good exchange. :-) [I'm just here for the jokes, oh, and for self-promotion too] |
Mike Evans
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, October 02, 2003 - 09:40 am: |
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Ornette Coleman had as many critical supporters as detractors when he first came on the scene. In fact his harshest critics were other musicians. You should check out A.B. Spellman's BLACK MUSIC: FOUR LIVES to get a better understanding of Ornette's impact. It's been more than forty years since Ornette made his first records. What seemed new in the late fifties had become part of the jazz lexicon by the mid-sixties. Some musicians & critics reevaluated their initial opinion of Coleman and his innovations; some did not. But most of the guys here in Chicago writing about jazz came of age during the sixties and were listening to Ornette and those who came after him.All of this to say that Ornette, though still playing music that is not mainstream jazz, is considered part of the establishment. Even Crouch and Wynton consider Coleman as part of the tradition. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, October 10, 2003 - 12:10 pm: |
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I love Ornette Coleman's work from the early sixties. Ain't up on him now--he had this one live album from Stockholm Sweden I think--da bomb--re his detractors when he first came on the scene this phenomenom is old as music--when new innovators, young turks, new stylists what have you come on the scene the established musicians, many of whom were derided for making "noise" when they first appeared, are the first to jump on them. |
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