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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 08:03 am: | 
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Hello All,
I'm getting this question directly from the book cover thread. I believe we should clarify what exactly is "commercial" fiction. For me, I break up our commercial fiction into three categories: The U-Go-Girl book, The Tornleisha Tale books, and the other books. Let's face it, is Toni Morrison now writing commercial fiction? I mean after all, when her new book comes out, it's going to hit number 1 on the bestseller's list. You can't get any more commercial than that, right? Wouldn't Walter Mosley fiction books fall under the commercial fiction banner, but I wouldn't put him and E. Lynn Harris in the same company. So, when we say commerical fiction, shouldn't we identify the book in more specific term, since commerical ficition is so broad? |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 09:18 am: |
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Commercial fiction could be books that appeal to a mass audience. I don't think you can define it in terms of style necessarily because a literary style can appeal to a mass audience too. But in general, maybe those who write blockbusters (or write books that end up being blockbusters), could be considered commercial writers.
I'm sure there's much more to be added to this. |
Soul Sister
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 03:09 pm: |
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Hey all,
Gotta chime in -- hey Thumper. When discussing money matters -- even when it comes to books - we need to define the market. Who is the audience and what is the product? The commericial books too me -- for African American people -- would be those you go -- boy/girl books - tripe I call them. Still, they have appeal and a place in the African American market.
Now, as for Toni and Walter and their recent works? Maybe they are bending you please the market -- you know those same people. Or they could just be evolving to please "other types" of readers -- hopefully someone can shed some light on the subject.
Since I have stopped reading Walter since RL's Dream and have never read Morrison past the first chpt and have not gotten the arc for Love - or whatever the new title is -- I cannot judge to much.
Plus you know I love straight stories with imagery that transports me to another time and dimension -- of space and consideration. Oh well, those are my musings
Remember -- who is the market and what is the product -- As it stands now Af-Am commerical lit is for - errbody Black and the product a book is "keepin' it real" - what ever that means - Peace |
Suky, Suky
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 04:00 pm: |
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Soul Sister:
I agree with you, RL's Dream was garbage. It baffles me when a critically respected and commercially successful author issues an out and out clunker under their name. I remember when J. California Cooper issued In Search of Satisfaction. This was another thoroughly substandard book.
I suspect that many commercially successful authors feel that they can ride their tide of success and slip in a poorly written book, and that nobody will notice. But this is not true. At least not with me. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 04:07 pm: |
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Thumper, Nee CEE, and Soul Sister:
I think market and the product is very important, but i do think commercial and literary writers may want different things from their markets. I don't think however, that a mass readership necessarily makes your fiction "commercial." For the most, if you're so priviledged and an award winning writer, as TM is, you're folk are going to buy ya literature. Though many awarded writers have no readership base. Yet, TM has changed the game, as Ellison did and Wright had.
I don't have a definition of "commericial" literature. I think commercial literature, regardless of u go-girl or mystery or sci-fi, focuses on telling a good captivating story, BUT is not necessarily interested in CRAFT, which is more than good grammar and punctuation.
Literary fiction is concerned about telling good storie, Craft and engagement with literary cultural traditions, regardless of the genre.
We can go through Gayl Jones, Toni Morrison, and others and identify similarities, especially focus on female sexuality and relationships, but the differences are substantial in terms of the prose, lyric, cultural signifiers, complexity in narrative form, etc......Similarly, Samuel R. Delany's literarture is both literary and sci-fi, so it's not even limited to genre.
Of course, this is a rather simplisitic characterization must but it does address basic differences.
Walter Mosley, I have yet to complete any of his novels. I've read most of WHite BUtterfly or something like that, and it was definitely commericial. I have read the first few pages of RL's Dream and found the writing more "literary." I think Mosley can do both, but he may be more successful at commercial literature.
Consider James Patterson....commercial or literary? I say commercial...what do ya'll think? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 04:35 pm: |
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Are commercial and literary books mutually exclusive? "Commercial" which has "commerce" as its root word is all about the market place, the arena where goods and services are exchanged and profits are realized. Because books that cater to the reading tastes of the masses make money, they are considered commercial. But if a literate book ends up being a best seller, then it should follow that it is a commercial hit. "The DaVinci Code", a fictional book currently sitting on top of all the best seller lists, might be considered literate because of its subject matter: Renaissance art and the cryptic clues these masterpieces contained in regard to whether Jesus Christ was married. The author is also a very skilled writer. The secret of this book's success, however, may be that it is a mystery. And a well-crafted mystery appeals to everyone. Just my thoughts on the subject. |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 04:38 pm: |
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Are commercial and literary books mutually exclusive? "Commercial" which has "commerce" as its root word is all about the market place, the arena where goods and services are exchanged and profits are realized. Because books that cater to the reading tastes of the masses make money, they are considered commercial. But if a literate book ends up being a best seller, then it should follow that it is a commercial hit. "The DaVinci Code", a fictional book currently sitting on top of all the best seller lists, might be considered literate because of its subject matter: Renaissance art and the cryptic clues these masterpieces contained in regard to whether Jesus Christ was married. The author is also a very skilled writer. The secret of this book's success, however, may be that it is a mystery. And a well-crafted mystery appeals to everyone.
And there you have my 2-cents on the subject. LOL |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 04:52 pm: |
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Oops! Didn't mean to post that twice. Lord knows once was enough. |
Big M Rules
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 06:26 pm: |
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Apparently, no one has read Toni Morrison's latest book "LOVE".
It is by no means commercial. The book is just as literary and "difficult" as any book she's ever written. The first chapter may seem easy as was the first in Bluest Eye, but after that, you REALLY gotta pay attention--and probably read a great deal of it over and over.
Morrison has not written a single commercial fiction title EVER, but after 30 years in the biz, appearing on OPRAH and winning the Nobel Prize...it makes perfect sense that like Faulkner and Twain in the old days, her books go directly to #1 on release. Her books are now a status symbol to have on the coffee table!
Half the fools that buy them dont even read the suckers!
Why is everyone acting as if she lowered the bar on what she writes just because she's selling millions of copies?
William Shakespear has also passed the 100 million mark in sales.
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 09:41 pm: |
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Hello All,
Big M: No one has said that Morrison lowered the quality of her writing because her latest book will probably hit number 1. I used her as an example in my original post because her books are NOT what some folks would call "commercial" fiction and yet, her books are #1 bestsellers. There are folks, like me, that love Morrison's works, and there are folks that don't. That's the nature of the beast.
Everyone: Can we be honest. I'm willing to go with what many of you say about the market, supply and demand and all that other good stuff. But, and tell me when I go wrong, but isn't the publicity, shelf space and all different between what we are calling "commercial" fiction and literature? How do we really know what the "masses" read and what the publishing industry is telling us? The best we can do is be aware of our own books and maybe what are friends or co-workers are reading? But, is what the publishing industry say is a "bestseller" an accurate representation? Above, there is a thread that I started concerning a book titled, A Known World. This book did not receive the same amount of publicity as say a Terry McMillan latest novel. My point is, are these bestsellers, bestsellers because we are being bombarded (at the minimum, made aware) of these books and not of others? If this is the case, why couldn't literary fiction be the fiction of the "masses". Toni Morrison don't seem to be having any problem with it now. Couldn't it also work for others? |
lurkerette
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:34 am: |
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What someone said above about coffee table books is important in demonstrating how sales figures can be inaccurate.
The most dependable way to gauge what people actually read (rather than buy because it's shoved down their throats thru advertising) is to check the lending records at public libraries. And then you will see that the most borrowed authors are your Omar Tyrees, Dickeys, Danielle Steels etc. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:41 pm: |
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What you say has some validity, Lurkerette, but just because someone checks out a library book doesn't necessarily indicate that that particular book was read. It could be that a person is curious about a popular book but doesn't want to shell out the money to buy it. And, it's possible that after obtaining the book for "free", this person didn't care enough for it to finish it. I have often checked out a best-seller from the library and ended up tossing it aside unfinished, because it sucked. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 09:10 pm: |
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Thumper:
I'm not sure if i understand this question: "But, and tell me when I go wrong, but isn't the publicity, shelf space and all different between what we are calling "commercial" fiction and literature? "
Also, are you stating, or believe, that bestsellers are ususally "commercial" fiction? I ask this based on ya last comment and response to Big M.
I think what Lurkerette and Cynique stated is essential, because the possession, either through borrowing from the library or friend or purchase, of a book doesn't mean it's read.
I think most bestsellers are bestsellers because of marketing and especially that they have suspense, mystery, sex. MOre importantly, they need to be readable and readily accessible. Also, if they're books have been made into movies then they'll definitely get a following.
Toni Morrison emerged at a time when black women authors were producing the best literature in general. Consequently, she, Walker, Naylor, were able to get the attention that Wright and Ellison received, though Morrison has remained at the very top of the literary world, not just for black women. Her genius and her awards have pushed her to the forefront, while others, Wideman, Naylor, for example, are also talented, but do not get the sales....recall InPrint's post from the other thread where he suggests that the literary writers' may not bring the sales, but they do bring the prestige...
Also, "literary" fictions requires a particular taste, so that the masses may only understand the story as a narrative, who did what and what happended in the beginning, middle, and end. So even if the "masses" possess "literary" fiction would there really be a differnce for them as the readership?
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Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 09:26 pm: |
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Back again. This is a good one.
I think Literary fiction and Commercial fiction are two different things and it’s a discussion that I have with editors and publishers alike. For me, literary fiction is a creation of work full of well-informed information that the author uses as a tool to inform, inspire and educate his or her readers. On the other hand, Commercial fiction for the most part is entertaining but isn’t held to the promise of informing, inspiring or any damn thing else. Just to entertain and take the reader away into another place.
When I think of literary fiction of the past, I look at James Baldwin, as in his novel Nobody Knows My Name, where he shows depth and knowledge about the connecting link between Africa and the West. I also think of Langston Hughes in his shorts Simple Speaks His Mind, where he drops knowledge and inspires but yet- these stories remained entertaining.
Commercial fiction for me is purely entertainment. Almost like a movie for me, where I can watch a character work out his or her situation without any other purpose than to entertain. I would put Sidney Sheldon, Tom Clancy, Walter Mosely (Devil in a Blue Dress) Eric Jerome Dickey, and many more of our up and coming authors who seem to create stories for entertainment purposes but are always being blasted because it didn’t have that certain, “literary flare.”
I think it’s sad when the readers of black authors always think there should be moral to each and every novel that comes out. After all, what was the moral to any of Elmore Leonard’s novels which are always great, and are even better movies? If an author wants to entertain, then let that author entertain. On the other hand, if the author wants to educate, inspire and provoke on a literary level understand what is written and digest it.
One last thing, most of the time people say they want more literary material. But would you honestly buy it like you scoop up the chick lit? I’m just askin. Do you really expect authors that are now finally making money in the commercial arena to, tell the suits and ties at major houses that they want to make a switch and do literary fiction and when they are told, “it’s not what we envision for you here at the house,” by editors and publishers to totally drop the house and go elsewhere? I think not, because the majority of houses feel this way about literary fiction and I can back that statement up by just browsing the books on the shelves and seeing what the publisher’s are releasing. Keep in mind, bestselling authors aren’t born. They are made by publishers and it goes the same for literary fiction. Publishers decide to publish or not and we have to live with the fact that literary fiction is not what they are publishing.
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Zane
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 11:09 am: |
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Anonymous,
I agree with every single word you said in the post above this one. I could not have said it better myself. I know that I have not published what people consider a literary novel. That was never my intention up until this point. I write for pure entertainment. I will even go further by saying that I write for self-entertainment. I have never written to impress another individual on the planet and, in actuality, I never intended to publish a book (not even Addicted). A lot of people assume I wrote Addicted to make a bunch of money. That is hilarious to me because my intention was to give it away for free on my web site.
I do think the debate between commercial and literary fiction, also being called lush and literary lately in some circles, is one that will never be settled. Why? Because there should be no debate in the first place. People have always and will always spend their money on what they want and read what they want. It's just that simple.
What complicates matters even further is the fact that there are so many other breakdowns being added to fiction like chick lit, erotica, street, hip-hop and numerous others on top of the logical ones that already exist like romance, historical, science fiction, and mystery/thriller. I often wonder what some of the books like Native Son, The Women of Brewster Place, Roots and others would be classified as today.
James Baldwin wrote Giovanni's Room about a young man struggling with his sexuality years ago. Would we compare that to E. Lynn's Invisible Life, which is about essentially the same topic?
I think all the confusion is unnecessary and I think it only serves to draw some ridiculous battle lines that divide our authors and make some feel they are better than others.
I can't honestly say that I have ever read a horrible book. I might not have liked it, I might not have been feeling it or, in many cases, I might not have even been able to finish it. But living my life as a full-time writer makes me realize more than others that this is not an easy thing to do. Thus, I commend anyone who puts forth the effort to accomplish writing a book.
Everyone has a story to tell but not everyone is a storyteller. As not only an author but the Acquisitions Editor for Strebor, I see a lot of manuscripts with potential but the writing doesn't hold my attention. When it comes down to it, that is just my humble opinion and doesn't mean it won't sell because most books have some sort of audience.
I would like to make one other comment. In one of the posts, someone mentioned that the marketing thrown behind books by publishing houses often determines what becomes a bestseller. When I self-published my first three books, all of them were on the Essence bestseller list at the same time for three months in a row and I didn't have any of that marketing power behind me. The same goes for a lot of self-published books that have done great and many of the authors are now doing well at major publishers. There are a lot of determining factors on why some books do better than others. It definitely does not just come down to marketing. A lot of well-marketed books flop, just like the movie Gigli that "Bennifer" made.
Peace,
Zane
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Up North
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 12:23 pm: |
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It amazing that people just don't want to call a spade a spade, certainly no pun intended. There are some excellent books, some great books, some good books and yes, some horrible books. Most certainly, the author may have put a lot of blood, sweat and tears into it, but that doesn't change the book one iota. I don't buy (or read) books based solely on the author's effort. It's more about the outcome. It's about the final product. For some reason, regarding books, it's as if, quality should be tossed into the wind.
News flash: literary books are very entertaining. Why this seems to seen as an either/or proposition, I have no clue. By the same token, there is a lesson or two in the most fluffiest fluff (of a book). |
Zane
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 01:42 pm: |
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Up North,
I still believe that effort counts for something. I do agree that literary books can be entertaining. My favorite book, and I tell everyone is this, is The Last Dream Before Dawn by D.V. Bernard. I would definitely classify it as literary and I have read it no less than ten times when I simply can't find something else that keeps my attention. Like I said, I don't understand the either/or proposition and the debate either.
Peace,
Zane |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 03:08 pm: |
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I think word of mouth is also essential...especially among black folk. |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 06:03 pm: |
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My feeling on this subject is that I don't want a surgeon to operate on me if he puts forth the effort to be a successful surgeon but doesn't have that special gift that makes him a good one. Why is it that writers are given such leeway? Why do I have to give a bad writer props just because he tries very hard to be a good writer? Why can't readers expect authors to be good writers? Zane, from what I can discern from your posts, your writing skills are excellent, but I think the tolerance you express is more about your being a kind-hearted person than an objective reader. You critique with your heart, not your head. |
Zane
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 09:45 am: |
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Cynique,
I will admit that my heart often guides me but ultimately I do use my head when I select books for publication. I reject more than 95% of submissions (like most acquisitions editors) and lately I am getting even more selective.
I still feel that when a person sits down to write a book, they believe that they can write or they wouldn't even make an attempt. Most fail to get published but at least they try instead of procrastinating about it or just giving up before they even finish a single chapter.
I love the surgeon analogy and I agree that I would want the best to operate on me as well. As a whole, I don't believe writers are given much leeway at all. In fact, I think in the AA writing community, much of the criticism is harsh but that is why a writer must have thick skin.
I am often in a local AA bookstore and 9 times out of 10 someone will come in and either purchase or discuss one of my books while I am standing there. I get the benefit of hearing what people really think without them knowing it. Some of the comments are good and some are bad but at least I get to hear how people feel.
One of the clerks asked me once how I could just stand there and listen to negative comments without blinking an eye. I told her that it didn't bother me at all and at least it's honest. It won't change the way I write though.
Readers should expect writers to be good writers if they are going to shell money out for their books. I think that is why word of mouth is so essential. Any book can have a huge marketing campaign, sell a bunch of copies right off the bat, and fizzle out once the word gets out that it sucks. I tell the authors signed to me all the time that I would rather put their books out there slowly and give them time to start selling than put them out there in huge numbers and have them come back as returns before readers get the chance to start spreading the word.
Cynique, I have been checking out your posts on the various threads and I must say that I appreciate your candor. It makes life interesting.
Peace,
Zane
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NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 09:59 am: |
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Zane,
You shouldn't have to defend your work. Your work is what it is. Whoever reads it and enjoys it, that's who you're writing for. Those who don't enjoy it, that particular book may not have been written for them.
My friends and I sometimes love the same book, other times we have varied opinions about the same book. This is just the way it is, no true rights or wrongs. But even that's debatable. |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:05 pm: |
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Zane,
You keep doing what you are doing. If people weren't buying your books then there wouldn't be much to talk about other than "when will the publishing industry finally open up more and give us more than T.McMillan's reciepe of 4 woman who can't stand their men."
Now that there is something fresh and new on the scene people don't know how to handle it. And the main reason as I will stand and debate forever is-because they don't understand the publishing industry because they are only readers. I am in the industry and everyone that I know is behind you-because your books have opened it up even more and widened the range of what "publishers" think black folk will read.
Next door to be open is the thrillers, science fiction and so forth.(The industry fed us Walter Mosley and Octavia Butler for years like they were the only black people in the genre that they could find-and I love their work but there are more---and these same writers have been saying the same thing for years to publishers.) So keep doing your thing because in the long run just like Terry Mac opened the door-you're giving publishers a view out the window to all that is out there for them to take a chance on--and if they won't do it --do it yourself-because you have in place what it takes to make it happen. |
Thumper
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 09:11 pm: |
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Hello All,
I hate to be the lone voice in the wilderness, but I'm not agreeing with some of these notions.
Zane, I have to disagree with you on a couple of fronts. First, I'm not trying to give people props just because they made the effort to write a book. That's not enough. It's been said before, and I'm simply casting my voice. But there are some books that aren't worth the paper it's printed on. Frankly, my time is worth more than somebody putting forth "an effort". Any author, if you're going to come at me, come at me right. There are books that are written by folks who won't even run a spell/grammar check on their stuff. As I said before, and ain't got a problem saying it now, writing is a CRAFT. It has to be worked. Now anyone who says or even remotely imply that they know it all is either a liar or a damn fool. So, whether a person has written 1 book or 20, if you aren't studying writing, reading books that are well written, then the author is playing himself.
How a book is marketed does make a difference. OK, you didn't have that problem with your book. But that does not mean that the problem does not exist. There is a book titled, Such Sweet Thunder by Vincent Carter. Tell me, do you see the book on any shelf in a bookstore? How many of us have started buying books, newly published books, online simply because we can't find it in any bookstore, yet when we walk into a bookstore all we see on display, on the shelves, are U-go-girl books and books by black authors that are of national prominence, Morrison, Mosley and the likes.
Secretly, I believe the last thing that many of the writers want is for the audience to become better readers. While it may take some authors, a year, a month, a few years to write a book. It usually don't take anyone that long to read it. But if a reader reads a few really good books, they won't go back to the pitiful books that are being shoved down our throats. And quiet as its kept, that's what happening now. That's why the u-go-girl books are selling in the same numbers as they were a few years ago. And its going to hurt those authors a lot more before its all said and done. |
Zane
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 09:34 pm: |
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Thumper,
I actually agree with almost everything you just said. When I said people should be applauded for putting forth an effort, by no means was I saying that all books are readable. I have a rule for submissions that I receive. I give them a certain amount of pages to capture my attention and if they do not, then they are rejected. I also agree about the spell check thing. It is amazing the way some people send in manuscripts. My agent and I were just discussing it the other day. They will send it without even reading over it and then when you mention the amount of errors, they tell you that it was not a "clean copy." Why would a person send anything other than a clean copy to a person they are trying to get to help them?
The Strebor submissions policy is currently taken down from my web site because I need to play catch up, but when it was up there it clearly stated that authors had to have their books edited first and name the editor in their query letter. In addition, they had to send the manuscript to me in a particular format and also submit a marketing plan. Now the marketing plan was for me to determine whether they were motivated to really push their books or just to say that they have a book out.
Most people failed to follow the guidelines but a lot of people did follow them and one sister even sent me a flow chart for her marketing plan. Now that was impressive.
I agree that a lot of books must be purchased online. That is exactly what happened to me. I sold a ton of books by word of mouth but it took forever and a day for my books to be in stores. In fact, many AA stores swore up and down they would never carry my "sex books." Now they have them in the front window. In one article in the New York Times a couple of years ago, Addicted was quoted as "the hottest paperback in the country." The next sentence said that even though that was the case, it was still virtually impossible to find in chain stores like Borders and Barnes and Noble.
All of this is to say that maybe I did not elaborate enough in my previous post. I also agree with your last paragraph. Most books are not selling that well. There is a huge misconception about sales figures in this industry.
I would like to go further but I do have to turn in a manuscript in the morning and I am one of those authors that refuses to send something to my editor without reading through it at least five times and making changes, additions, and corrections as I see fit.
Peace and Blessings,
Zane |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 07:05 am: |
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Zane,
For what it's worth, I saw a copy of your latest book in the front window of Walden Books this weekend so...
I do believe that writers should work on their craft, but what people are assuming is that the person who's written a book hasn't worked on the craft. I think an individual can work very hard on a book, for a number of years, and when it's released, someone will still consider it junk or poorly written.
This is a toughie. I believe Alex Haley worked on Roots for about seven (7) years and the book is one of the most well-written (even now 20 some years after it's release). But do you really think everybody that read Roots think it's a masterpiece?
I think writers should work on their books until the material is airtight, however length of time that takes. And what's airtight to one person will be something different to another.
My point is, as it always has been, no matter what you write, how long it takes to write it, how many creative writing courses you take, whether you have an MFA or not, once the book is released, people will either love it, like it, hate it, or feel indifferent. You can work 50 years on a book and it won't guarantee that everyone is gonna love it or respect your efforts.
But if people worried about the criticism they might receive for their books, perhaps no material would ever get published.
And I believe that once a book is published, a lot of authors would go back and change the way they did certain things. That's probably because since then they've learned more about the craft and they can apply that knowledge to the next book.
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 01:23 pm: |
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Hello All,
NeeCee: I see what you're saying, but it's not that simple. There is a difference between not liking a book because you don't like the direction, structure, subject matter, etc AND not liking a book because the author can't write worth a damn. Let's not get it twisted. You can not like a book, but acknowledge the fact that the author can write. For example, I wasnt' that thrilled with More Like Wrestling by Danyel Smith, BUT I loved Smith's writing style. She can write. I didn't like the direction of the story, etc. The same can be said about The Emperor of Ocean Park. I didn't like half of the book, but will shout it out that Carter can write. See, what I mean.
Now when it comes to two of my favorite love-to-hate authors, Micahel Baidsen and Rosalyn McMillan, they plain, flat out, for crying out loud, can't write! Ain't no other way around it! Danyel Smith and Stephen Carter's next book, I will read. McMillan and Baidsen? Huh, not in this lifetime, nor the next three, will I read another book by either one of them.
There's more to learning the craft of writing than taking writing courses and getting a MFA. I've read books by authors that have toted their creditials as if that alone should have impressed me, and not their book. It didn't work then, nor will it now. And yes, people will like your work or they won't, but that doesn't mean that we who criticize should be silenced.
No one is insane enough to assume that a person who have written a book haven't worked on their craft. Quite the contrary, I assume that they have or in the process of working on it. No one publishes their first book only to be done learning and reading, not if they want to be accomplished authors, they don't. And more and more of us, who started reading only one genre of book and is moving around reading other types of books, are beginning to notcie the difference. So, don't hate us. |
solomonjones
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 10:30 am: |
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Thumper -
I, for one, am glad to know that black readers are beginning to be a little more discriminating. As far as the commercial v. literary, question, I think the difference really does boil down to the quality of the work. Literary fiction tends to be heavier. There is more use of metaphor and simile, more use of symbolism and description. Commercial fiction is light reading that tends to be more straightforward in its approach to storytelling. Both can be enjoyable. Writers like myself, who straddle the line between commercial and literary, tend to find ourselves in a quandary, because publishers don't necessarily know how they should market our material. But that's the chance we take, in the hope that we can somehow snag both literary and commercial readers.
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NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 10:49 am: |
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Thumper and others:
For me, even if a book is very well written, if I get nothing out of it, the book wasn't written for me. I don't endorse it. I stow it away. Maybe I can read it and appreciate that book at a future time. But if I dislike the book, it's just my opinion, and others who read the book may like it.
I don't mind that individuals prefer literary versus commercial fiction, but I don't like it when my reading choices are downgraded, because I like to read whatever is enjoyable and edifying for me at the time, whether it be an entertaining piece, something heavy and uplifting, or a chick lit lightweight story. I love what I love and feel as passionate about my selections as others feel about theirs.
I understand your points about poorly written books and I don't support poorly written books, but I do support readers' right to select whatever they want to read and deem it a good read even if the writing sucks. I think everyone should be allowed that basic right.
One part of the reading experience is being allowed to grow and develop and move on to other types of material, but until then please let the person enjoy what they've selected without making them feel like they're doing something wrong.
Hope this makes sense. No offense intended. |
Chris Hayden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 12:37 pm: |
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I'd see commercial fiction as primarily genre fiction (the usual categories of Romance, Adventure, Western, Crime/Detective/Science Fiction, Suspense). It is written primarily for escape and entertainment.
Literary fiction does not fit conventional genres or models, it is written in an academic language or makes literary references which are known to readers who are more learned and knowlegeablein the classics, the classics of literature, philosophy and the like--it may have no plot or form and is generally more involved--it attracts a reader who wishes to be challenged intellectually rather than entertained.
There is some overlap, of course. Whether one or the other is better is a value judgment, what is the need or desire being met? Do I wish to consider the great dilemmas of the day? Do I wish to learn new worlds and words and ideas? Do I wish to master a difficult writing style? Or do I wish to just knock off a couple hours reading something and relax, or participate vicariously in the adventures of the protagonist?
These are the questions put forth. Regarding Zane she has never pretended to be Terry McMillan, Gwendolyn Brooks, Toni Morrison but has written her own unique stories. Debate over her relative merits is going to vary according to whether we approve or not.
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Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 09:28 pm: |
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Hello All
Boy, this has been some ride hasn't it. What I'd like to do is point out a few posts that I think nailed the issue yet were brushed over without much acknowledgement.
First, Thumper has said from the jump that this is primarily a readers board, meaning authors are welcomed to join in but should be aware that we are not going to pull punches. Thump has repeatedly tried to pull y'alls coat about this but nevertheless there are those that still are crying low blow and hater at those that choose to enlighted us about inadequacies of a book or an author. It's okay to voice ones opinion about a book, in fact, it's welcomed. But noooo. when an author is knowm to be reading the board, the welcomed opinion is now treated like an unexpected pregnancy of a 15yr old, back in the 50's. Think about it y'all, we all have trashed a book in one way or another, so what's the big deal......what's it REALLY all about? I did notice a little brown nose'n going on *smile*.
There's a post that was on target that few cared to refute because, in my opinion, it hit home and the truth sometimes hurts.
Thump wrote this to NeeCee (now this doesn't mean it was directed at NeeCee) "But, NeeCee the truth is that most people who love the book that I find negative, take the negative comments as a personal insult against them. So. I'm not getting your "hate" for someone being a litery snob. Aren't there books that you don't like reading because of subject matter, the author's writing style, etc?".........he went on to say "Inprint don't want to read the U-go-girl books, hey, I ain't too particular about them myself, still it's our right to do that. Just as it's your right NOT to like the books Inprint loves to read".
Now, that said a million. He basically said the problem is displaced. Those that like "literay fiction" don't cry foul when their reading taste is said to be boring, slow, tedious or without entertainment value. Someone wrote that they didn't mind that individuals prefer literary versus commercial fiction, but didn't like it when their choices were downgraded because they like to read whatever is enjoyable. Well, again, who has the problem, who downgraded them? I truely truely believe it's about personal inadequacies. I know I'll hear about this but hey.....IMO many readers of fluff and/or Zane's genre of books may not know WHY a certain book might be considered below grade or not readable by others. They could care less about a book filled with "utility" words, old cliches, vagueness, triteness or meaningless Chatter. Metaphors and proper diction are nuisances, road-bumps, blocking their way to that next supper-dupper funny, mad, weird, fine, neat stuff, in the next paragraph *smile*. The heck with "tone" turn up the heat you black sexy thang *lol*. They seem to be protecting something,,,,,,uuummmm.
Okay, Commercial V. Literary fiction.....Yukio and Solomon said a group. They just about said all that needed to be said on this subject, in my opinion of course.
Yukio wrote: "Literary fiction is concerned about telling a good storie, craft and engagement with literary traditions, regardless of genre. We can go through Gayl JOnes, toni Morrison, and others and identify similarities, especially focusing on female sexuality and relationships, BUT the DIFFERENCES are substantial in terms of prose, lyric, cultural signifiers, complexity in narrative form, etc.....".
Solomon (he's here visiting as a reader so he's solomon today *LOL*) enhanced that thought by writing: "As far as the commercial v. literary question, I think the difference really boil down to the quality of the work. Literary fiction tends to be heavier. There is more use of metaphor and simile, more use of symbolism and descrition. Commercial fiction is light reading that tends to be more straightforward in its approach to storytelling. Both can be enjoyable".
I like what he said in his last line, "they both can be enjoyable". Some wish to view literary fiction as unenjoyable and therefore not entertaining, I never understood that.
So, that's my take on this mess. Its been fun.
Carey
Carey |
Up North
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 10:44 pm: |
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Zane, I was speaking of this common notion that literary works can't be/aren't entertaining.
That is the main reason why I love this board so much because I know there will be discussions of good, well-written books and non-formulaic authors that goes way beyond what's the on the bestsellers lists, what every mailing list/listserv is raving about and what the publishers are literally jamming down our throats. Over the years, I've taken down many recommendations by Thumper and other posters and had wonderful times reading entertaining, literary reads. I don't have the time nor do I have the inclination to scuff down 10 books a week so when I do get a chance to read a book I want it to be worth my while. |
Up North
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 10:59 pm: |
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NeeCee, maybe I missed a posting or two but I don't think anyone has said that a reader can't read any type of book they wish to read. However, what I have noticed is that the same folks who are always yelling about 'just respect what I read' are usually the last one to give it to others. To echo your last statement, no offense intended.
I don't understand why anyone would want to read any book, literary or contemporary or whatever, that is badly written. But when questioned about it, people get all defensive, as if you've attacked their personhood, instead of them responding with, here's why I enjoyed the book. Of course, they aren't going to say, yes, the writing sucked but I enjoyed it anyway. But maybe they were able to get something from the book that you didn't and you sincerely want to know what it is.
On this board, I've seen a lot of people running to certain writers' defenses and it's so unnecessary. Those same people always seem to get their fair share of jabs into the fray yet want to sit back and act like children who toss a rock and hide their hands behind their backs. If most would get their own biases out of the way and let their defenses down a bit and really read and try the understand the point that the other is saying, then we could have better discussions. And, yes, we're going to have some who commit the cyber drive-bys, as I call them, but if ignored long enough they will visit less frequently and/or raise to the level of other posters. |
neecee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 02:19 pm: |
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whatever |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 02:33 pm: |
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Carey:
You know, I hadn't thought of that point. How some people take it personally when their literary, music, art choices are questioned or derided.
I of course never do this--'cept if somebody gets to runnin down James Brown! Better not nobody say nothin' 'bout my James! |
Anonymous2
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 03:30 pm: |
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Very profound and insightful response, neecee. |
Rachel Howzell Hall
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 02:45 pm: |
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I've decided to post now that the controversy has ebbed a bit. Must say that, despite the controversy about what book is good and what book ain't good, what is commercial and what is literary, as a novelist, I'm just glad that folks are still buying books. And not only are you, Thumper's Board, buying books but you're discussing them. That books remain relevant to you. With new forms of media, and the increasing illiteracy in this country (which some books may actually help spur along...) it's good to know (as an artist) that YOU STILL CARE! That you know what a book is. That you still get off on cracking the spine of a piece of literature(commercial or literary). If we didn't have these arguments, then we'd have something to worry about. Living in L.A., when you say you're a writer, the next question tends to be, "Screen or T.V.?"
A wonderful thing about this country: we can have a discussion and have different opinions, and it's all good. At least, in mature, learned discussions, it should be all good. I hate reading some posts and it's all attack, then then the poster gets offended when someone snipes back. It's so very...Bush-ish. I agree with some posters - if you like, like it, and be unapologetic about it. Even if it is crap (or the Hope Diamond of BABs), you continue to like it and embrace it. Just don't be surprised if someone thinks your diamond is a clearance-sale cubic zirconia from Wal-Mart.
I will close on this: As a writer (who's not coming here to push product or to tell you all how great I think I am and why you should find me just as great)I thank you so much for caring. And I thank Thumper for allowing such diverse opinions to be heard. |
AnonymousX
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 03:19 pm: |
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OOoh, Rachel.
I bet Zane will love that last paragraph! LOL
You sure know how to play darts, lady.
OUCH!
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Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 04:16 pm: |
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LOL |
No Longer AnonymousX
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 04:22 pm: |
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I posted a message earlier this morning on purpose under the username, AnonymousX, after another person posted under Anonymous2 yesterday, now I see another person has chose to post under this name as well. But they can have this one, as well.
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Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 04:30 pm: |
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I'm sorry. I was laughing so hard that I had to go regain my composure. Thanks for the few positive posts regarding what I have done and what I will continue to do in the publishing industry, despite the negativity. I just signed three more authors this week to Strebor and I am proud of myself because they are three more African Americans who will realize their dream of becoming published authors and having their books distributed worldwide by Simon and Schuster.
I think debate is important. Without it, life would be boring. Rachel, I purchased your book when it first came out because I purchase 80-90% of the AA books that are published; especially when they are from the same publishing house. If that was a low blow, it didn't hurt me, but it was disappointing.
Well, I have to go cut royalty checks that go out at the end of the month so that some people can pay bills. I guess someone will find something negative to say about that, too. Shame on it all!
Peace,
Zane |
Rachel Howzell Hall
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 05:05 pm: |
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Hi, Zane -
No, my statement wasn't political, or directed at anyone. It was what it was. Literature is for all. Discussion of literature is for all. First, I don't believe in censorship - I work for the ACLU; which means something else, too. I'm not afraid of a good fight. I'm also a Black woman - again, that means I'm not afraid of a fight. All in all, I did not post as a literary pugilist. I posted as a fan of literature who now gets to share something I've created and observed with those who will have me.
I've read and written since I could speak, and even though I have received money for my efforts of late, I still remain a serious reader of literature. As such, I see many scary things since I bought my first 'Clifford the Big Red Dog' book at the school book fair. Scary, scary things in which China censors Hilary Clinton's book, in which John Ashcroft gets to snoop and see what I've been reading. This is what I think about all the time, and what I thought about in my last post.
And, so, if you'd (anyone, not just Zane) like to see that post as anything other than what it was - an observation and a hosanna about the greatness of an art that is in constant flux, in which kids in schools nowadays don't even have books in classrooms, that their parents couldn't find a library or a bookstore - then let's chalk it up to...hell if I know.
Zane, thanks for your support and buying my book. It's a joy even when my mother tells my she's bought another copy. But if that means shutting my mouth when I have an opinion or dare to make an observation, you know as well as I that writers (at least real writers) cannot and will never keep quiet. Heck, S&S have both paid us for our big mouths. The real shame, in my humble-only-been-on-the-planet-for 33-years-opinion is that we (the royal 'we') can't talk without giving each other raspberries. But then, if there were no such things as animosity, jealousy, curiousity, love, lust, damnation, and normality, we creatives would all be out of jobs.
I never intended to turn this into a personal attack, Zane, but I must go now. I have civil liberties and civil rights to defend...
In closing:
Write what you must, read what you want, be whoever you want to be, just don't tread on me (the California state motto...)...the "tread" part, at least.
Rachel H.H.
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idrissa
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 07:08 pm: |
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Rachel: Just wanted to note that I bought and read your book and enjoyed it a great deal. Looking forward to your next one. I shared it with my 75 year-old mother, my 20 year-old college student niece and my girlfriend who is in her 40's. They all enjoyed it. No; I did not find it in the bookstore; but found it online. We miss too many good reads by buying only what is touted by the bookstores and reviewers.
Zane: I have not had the pleasure of reading your work; although many sisters have encouraged me to do so.....just not my what I've thought I would be interested in reading, but I do intend to buy one of your books very soon to see what I've been missing.
I buy anywhere from four to ten books online each month and if I happen into a bookstore and find something interesting; I buy more. Fortunately; I have the time and the inclination to read a lot of books and basically support African American writers.
I found this thread really interesting because I sometimes will buy a book and not be able to get past the first chapter and wonder; "What did the publisher see in this?" And like Thumper; I am almost angry when I buy a book that I don't like. LOL However; 90% of the time, I am rewarded by a good read. It's like ice cream; everyone has their preferences. I like chocolate; my sister likes strawberry. I think the same applies to African American books; there is more than one audience.
Can't we just agree to disagree? |
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