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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 11:23 pm: | 
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Hello All,
I was reading a book (as if that in itself would be strange) and it mentioned historical novels. It made the point that folks would rather read an historical novel on an historical figure or event rather than a history book on the same subject. In my case, it's true. In most cases I would rather read an historical novel than a history book because the historical novel is written by a novelist who can make the story interesting as to a historian, who although he has accuracy on his side, most history books are dry and boring. Only recently have I read history books that have flowed like a novel. So, is it important that the historical novel be as accurate as possible? Or is the story the most important element? |
Fool on the Hill
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 01:53 am: |
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Thumper,
Hey now. I think the idea of historical novels are wonderful if they get people, especially Americans, to think about life in a larger context. It seems like the only problem is when readers begin to take the novels as gospel retelling of history, then we're in trouble. Alex Haley was found to have been a little less than rigorous when he was writing Roots so as a historical document it has holes, but as a work of great historical importance it can't be underestimated. Have you read Robert Caro's biography of Lyndon Johnson? Master of the Senate, the second volume just won the Pulitzer or National Book Award (I forget). I know it's not a black theme book, but he brings much of the history of Texas to startling life and while he's inundating you with facts he makes it feel like a great big novel of a certain time and a certain man. |
akaivyleaf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 08:21 am: |
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I like historical novels to be as close to true as possible. NOthing worse than knowing history and reading a fictionalized account and knowing that the fictionalized accounting couldn't have possibly happened. It also shows that the author half heartedly did research and I think if you're going to write a historical novel you should do some research.
Fiction allows the writer to take some liberty with the setting and the facts but something about a complete rewrite of history grates on me. |
Soul Sister
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 09:09 am: |
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Hey all,
You know I have to chime in as one of the resident historians -- here in Thumper's world. I have to agree to some point - novels are written to stimulate and entertain, history is not collected nor written for that outcome. Most historians write for other historians and students of history - therefore the lay historian is not considered.
I must admit that I LOVE good historical fiction, it allows the reader to experience the "life and times" of a person or historical period.
Ideally, historians should consider the lay audience but that would not be "academically sound" - Conversely there are some historians Elizabeth Clark Lewis, Stephanie Shaw, Nell Painter, Darlene Hines -- all Black women - who have written -- readable and provocative histories - with -- understanding in mind.
Oh well, I could go on forever -- I appreciate the question posed - and yup - you are right some stuff is too stuffy -- but there are some good things coming out of the academe -- that are truly touching -- peace |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 12:03 pm: |
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I'm not into historical fiction that much, but I am a fan of history written in a conversational style that includes juicy tidbits and fascinating side lights about the era being written about. The recent biographies of Zora Neale Hurston and Madam C.J. Walker, and an earlier one of Nella Larsen are examples of this type of historical treatment. Coincidentally, I am just finishing "Reconsidering The Souls of Black Folk", a very interesting book that I liked because once I found my ear for its voice, it was like I had enrolled in a lecture series on W.E.B. DuBois and, rather than reading, I was listening to Playthell Benjamin and Stanley Crouch expound on the subject. And if I was looking for juicy iconoclastic tidbits, I sure found them in the way Cornel West and Skip Gates were scewered in this work. These 2 black darlings of white academia, were accused of being overrated intellectuals, - doubletalkers who have bamboozled everyone into thinking that they are infallible. Something I am inclined to agree with. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 01:20 pm: |
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I generally don't like historical novels because they have to take too many liberties with the facts in order to satisfy the demands of fiction--the farther back in time they go the more fanciful they get I guess because facts get sketchier and sketchier trying to think of one I enjoyed--can't think of any besides "Roots" and "Here to Eternity"--anybody think of any?
Cynique: I have seen and heard Skip Gates speak and he seems to come across as more of a crowd pleaser than intellectual--again that was when he was speaking generally, I haven't read any of his scholarly works.
Cornel West I find a fascinating speaker with a tremendous breadth and grasp--he has been accused of being a thousand miles wide and an inch deep--I find his writings almost impenetrable but figure this is because of is training and orientation--his being primarily a philosopher. |
Zane
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 02:47 pm: |
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I enjoy historical novels. However, an author has to careful if they choose to undertake such a book. Even in contemporary novels, people who want to find fault in them will. Whether they are concerned about a movie being out during the year or before the year in which the events take place, if certain sayings or clothing were popular then, if geographical references are real, etc.
For example, when I was writing Nervous, I researched the different restaurants, museums and tourist spots in Atlanta (where the book takes place). I used to live in Atlanta but things have changed drastically so when Jonquinette (the main character of Nervous) talks about Zoo Atlanta and names the pandas, all of that is real. When she talks about how far they walked up Stone Mountain and the elevation and about chewing gum being stuck all over the rocks, it is real. When she talks about dining at Cherry, a restaurant with all red decor, it is real. The comedy club she goes to on a date is real. The mental disorder she suffers from is a real one. The treatment she undergoes is real.
All I am saying is that it is hard enough to double check information in the present time so I am sure it is ten times more difficult for historical novels. No matter what a person is writing, they should make it as factual and believable as possible. The same goes for "street novels" because I must admit that some of them read so realistically and other ones make me wonder if the author has ever stepped a foot into the ghetto, rather less lived that life. Then again, experience is not always a prerequisite for writing a novel. I seriously doubt Stephen King or Dean Koontz have ever seen a monster or alien and I seriously doubt James Patterson or Jeffrey Deaver have ever tracked down a serial killer. The thing about them is that they are talented (at least in my opinion because I can't put any of their books down). So either be talented or be real; preferably be both.
Peace,
Zane |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 03:14 pm: |
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Chris,
I'm not really qualified to judge Cornel West or Skip Gates but, being who I am, I take a rather fiendish delight is seeing idols toppled from their pedestals. To me, Cornel West always seems to counteract challenges to his arguments by resorting to a spiel that is more confusing than enlightening. And, as far as I'm concerned, Gates' admitted penchant for blue-eyed blondes tarnishes his credentials as a serious black advocate.
Also, I read your "soliloquy" which appeared in "Creative Brother's Sci-Fi Magazine". It struck me as being a kind of wistful sojourn into a brave new world, a piece I found to be quite imaginative. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 03:29 pm: |
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Oh, yeah, Chris, "Gone With the Wind" was the quintessential historical novel. You just have to swallow your chagrin, babe. LOL |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 03:10 am: |
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I'm not a huge fan of historical novels as I will admit, that in the past I've just assumed they were just as boring as history books back in junior high. I would like to think that they'd be factual though; otherwise it would probably bother me, especially if I knew something to be inaccurate.
I also want to throw out that This Side of the Sky by Elyse Singleton was one of the best books that I've ever read and it's historical fiction. Anyone read it?
-Tee |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 07:51 am: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: I'm glad to hear that you liked Reconsidering The Souls. I have to admit as well that when I got to the part were Benjamin takes off after Gates and West, I loved it. It was like getting a surprise present in the middle of the week. What was the name of that Nella Larsen biography you read. I had one in my sights not to long ago and when I finally remembered to buy it, it was out of print.
Everyone: I think we should probably be clear on what we consider a historical novel. Not every novel that is set in the past is a historical novel. For instance, I would classified Gone With The Wind as a historical novel. It was a book that took place during the Civil War. It had no connection with reality. Beloved by Toni Morrison is based on a real woman and actual event, but I wouldn't classify it as a historical novel either. I would say that Jewel Parker Rhodes novels, Magic City and Douglass' Women are historical novels. Rohdes made up parts of the book, but the rest she got from the actual letters and writings of the participants. Should we base our determination of a historical novels by the amount of actual, documentated historical facts that were used in the book?
Since I've been reading more and more non-fiction lately, I do love history books that are written and flows like a novel. I am still impressed with At The Hands of Persons Unknown by Phillip Dray. Isn't there elements of fiction in history books, like ones that chooses to ignore or omit facts in order to give a slat to the author's way of thinkg? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 11:15 am: |
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Oh-oh, Thumper. I think I'm disagreeing with you when I say I still think "Gone With The Wind" was a historical novel. The Civil War and the Reconstruction Period permeated the plot; the historical setting of the book was at the root of everything that happened to its characters, and one of the messages of the book was that those who were able to extricate themselves from the bygone era of the Old South were the ones who were able to survive. There was also passages throughout the book referring to famous battles that were going on, and descriptions of the hardships caused by the war.
The book you asked about was called "Nella Larsen: novelist of the Harlem Renassiance", and was written by Thadious M. Davis a black female professor of English at Vanderbilt University. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 02:14 pm: |
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I like and read both; they have different purposes, as far as i'm concerned and the novel would have no background w/o the history book. Yet, the novel can make the period or moment more personable!
I do like historical novels. For the most part, the dates are often correct, but the interpretations of the history may not be and this is ok, since it is FICTION not history, and it could make the history more interesting. Also, history, unless it's biographical or autobiographical, which can be often have a narrative prose as FOTH mentions, lacks a human element, so historical novels often enables us to read and "see" how individuals experienced a particular historical moment! Edwidge Danticah's Farming of the Bones is a perfect example.
Comment on history:
History is more than facts: It is fictive. It is not even a chronicle of what happened. Academic history nor journalism for that matter is the past or present as it happened, ie the chain of events(empirical data is always incomplete). They are all fictive in that they are mediated by human interpretations and biases, also the facts are organized to create a comprehensive narrative, which the historian, journalist, writer has to do, though with some limitations based on context, etc......
I'm not saying that history is fiction, as in all made up, but "fictive," suggesting that human mediation necessary creates or makes from what is already there, ie empirical sources.
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 11:10 pm: |
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Cynique,
I agree with your opinion of Gates but disagree about West. Gates doesn't even strike me as being particularly articulate, which is surprising, considering the lofty perch he rests on in academia. But, if you have read significant portions of West's writings, you might think differently about him.
Not that I agree with everything West writes, as there are flaws and lapses in everyone's basis of reasoning. But the question I have about West is that considering how he is so well-grounded in the European classics, how does he reconciles his White academic/scholarly training with his Black heart/spirit that has been battered/enslaved by much of the result of his learning.
Also, West seems so intensely bright and well-read that most people do not have the intellectual wherewithal to follow what he's saying/writing and many of the few people who can keep up with him resent and reject (and maybe secretly crave) his relative popularity among non-academics.
I don't know ANYTHING about what a historical novel is or should be. However, most of us would view the term 'historical' to mean the author based her story on something that actually happened. Yet we consider a 'novel' to be fictional or imaginary. Therefore, isn't the phrase "historical novel" an oxymoron?
Just kidding!
Really. I think we should frame the question as just "how" factually accurate should we expect ANY novel to be when a novel is primarily a literary expression of the author's imagination and fantasies? Should a novel, the product of such personal/intimate investment & inspiration, be strictly bound to the strictures of cold/objective (& often stale) historical doctrine?
I don't think so.
You should read a novel primarily for entertainment, inspiration and enlightenment, which usually comes first & foremost from realistic/3-dimensional characters development, engrossing plot/theme and interesting/unique subject matter. Yes, I think a novel should be informative and reasonably accurate. But I would never rely upon any novel to get ALL the facts right about anything.
If a novel touch on subject matter that is of particular interest to me, I won't accept it as full/whole truth. Rather, I would then consult more scholarly references for clarity/validation. Simply: If you are an unyielding stickler for factual integrity, you would profit more from consulting respected history texts and/or doctoral theses.
Yes, I think ANY novel should be accurate about the most widely known and accepted facts. But honestly, I have to question the REAL merits of any novel when, for example, most of the discussion about it concerns how accurately the author recounted the stylings of church headdress of the Mississippi Delta circa 1935. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:54 am: |
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ABM, in the book "Reconsidering the Souls of Black Folk", one of the problems Playthel Benjamin had with Cornel West was that West accuses W.E.B. Dubois as being an "elitist" yet he, himself, has never considered offers to join the faculty of a black university. Instead, West prefers the upscale lifestyle and prestige that comes with being on the staffs of white, high-profile, ivy league colleges. |
Cocowriter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:48 pm: |
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I enjoy historical fiction. The key word is "fiction" and such, the author is expected to take liberty with the facts. If a reader chooses to read historical fiction, she/he should not accept it as gospel. For that they can read a nonfiction account or academic book. Jewell Parker Rhodes fictionalized the women in Frederick Douglass' life. She used the premice of what if? The same with Tananarive Due with The Black Rose, the fictionalized account of Madame C. Walker.
My beef is with an actual nonfiction account of a historical figure or event that has not been well researched and is full of mistruths. That is the case with a new biography of Madame C. Walker by a white author. The story is in the Sept/Oct issue of Black Isses in Review. It seems whites think they can write about us with impunity. People should write about any subject they want but they need to be accurate. Madame Walker's great great grandaughter had already wrote a definitive book on her ancester but of course they think they can do it better. Anyway, back to historical fiction. Because it is fiction, it is written to be entertaining and stretch the imagination. Of course the basics need to be accurate, the clothes, landmarks, general premice but as far as I am concerned, go for it. I am writing a novel that culminates in 1963 during the March on Washington and I am fictionalizing quite a bit. That's my prerogative. |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:35 pm: |
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Valid point, Cynique. West may be as aloof and elitist as DuBois, although his being such does not diminish his standing & accomplishments in my eyes. Many of our most effective "eggheads" have been wholly full of themselves.
And although I might expect West to on occasion serve as a visiting professor at HBCU's, I don't begrudge his choosing to wield his intellectual prowess at the nation's most wealthy and prestigous universities (cushy/comfy though they may be). After all, a great warriors can make her/his most effective "kills" while operating behind enemy lines. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:45 pm: |
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I think we need to make a distinction here. One type of historical novel is a fictionalized version of events that happened to real people. (The Douglass Women) The other type of historical novel is one with a cast of characters who typify the historical era in which the plot is set. (Gone With The Wind) |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, September 19, 2003 - 08:45 pm: |
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Cynique:
Where u convinced of Benjamins'comment on West. Whether West is an elitist or nor doesn't change that DuBois was an elitist. What really does one have to do with the other besides an attempt to redirect the analysis on West rather than DuBois? Everyone knows that DuBois was an elitist. Also, professors at black institutions are as elitist as those at ivy institutions. I know of both.... |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 12:53 am: |
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Well, Yukio, since I personally don't consider being an elitist a stigma, I don't feel the need to debate the question. I do, however, think it says something about Cornel West for him to label somebody as being what he, himself, is. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 03:01 pm: |
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Cynique:
No debate, just questions.
Hmmmmm.....i guess i'm asking if West is an elitist does it make his characterization of DuBois less accurate?
Similarly, doesn't Benjamin's comments about West suggest that Benjamin's analysis could be less about the validity of West's comments and more about whether certain people can/should "legitimately" evaluate DuBois? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 05:41 pm: |
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Yukio asks:
i guess i'm asking if West is an elitist does it make his characterization of DuBois less accurate?
Cynique answers:
No, cause it takes one to know one.
Yukio asks:
Similarly, doesn't Benjamin's comments about West suggest that Benjamin's analysis could be less about the validity of West's comments and more about whether certain people can/should "legitimately" evaluate DuBois?
Cynique answers:
Yes. This is apparently the position that Benjamin has taken. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 08:19 pm: |
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Cynique:
Thank U! |
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