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NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 10:48 am: | 
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In general, do you have a problem with the inclusion of white characters in a novel written by an African-American? Do you feel they can have a legitimate presence in the story if the characters are done well? Or would you prefer they be eliminated?
Some of the books I enjoyed that included white characters are: Brothers and Sisters / Your Blues Ain't Like Mine by Bebe Moore Campbell, and Meeting of the Waters by Kim McLarin. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:50 am: |
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NeeCee:
I don't have a problem with the inclusion of white characters--rare is the Black person that does not run across a white person some time during the day. I don't like them just thrown in there to get a white readership--but how do you determine that? |
ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:55 am: |
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No disrespect meant to you, NeeCee. You cite an issue that some Blacks have emoted, and, therefore, it is worthy of discussion. But I find it to be humorous that this would really be a point of consternation among us.
Most Black folks have "some" connection & interaction with White people in real life. So why would reasonable AA's decry the inclusion of Whites in AA books? And might utterly excluding White characters from Black books - whether those characters be good, bad or indifferent - be a dishonest form of intellectual and literary censorship? |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 12:04 pm: |
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ABM,
The reason why I brought up this topic is because of a conversation I had with someone who mentioned a white character in a book where the character seemed 'thrown in'. And I think I understand what she meant; I think some characters fit seamlessly inside a story where others seem forced, but when you think about it, that could happen regardless of the character's race or ethnic background. So I think the bottom line is what is the purpose of the character? If they fit and the writer does a good job, their inclusion is justified. I have no problem with it personally. Just make them believable.
Chris, eeck, I don't know if anyone can know the motivations of a writer who adds the white character - whether they are after the white readership or not. That's a toughie.
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 01:36 pm: |
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An author would be a fool if he or she thought that including a White character into his or her book would motivate masses of White people to want to read their book. Heck! If I were a White reader, why would I buy an AA book with 1 or 2 supporting White characters haphazardly thrown in when there are infinitely more well-written books with Whites as the main (& often only) characters?
I think some AA authors might include White characters because they rightly want to convey the sense that their character lives in a diverse world that is similar that of the one we actually reside in. I also think that if the story is very much an indictment of White society/people, the author might choose to pair the protagonist with a sympathetic/helpful/trusty White so as to try to balance out some of the White bashing that some might think the book conveys. And I think including a White character might help to highlight certain differences - good/bad - between the races that the author intend to communicate.
I don't think those reasons are inherently bad. You just hope the White character genuinely fit within the storyline and that the character is more real and less caricature (which is too often the case). Because, ultimately, whether the readers enjoy or reject the White character(s) will be less a product of the author's apparent intent and more a function of the writer's actual skill and talent. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 02:22 pm: |
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ABM: Right! And including paler folks in black novels also highlights the similarities among black and whites, as well as identifying the differences between black and white americans and "racial" groups in different countries and continents.. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 02:34 pm: |
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When I write a story...I ALWAYS start with two black women (usually a dark one and a light one)...they can be mother and daughter...or two best friends...or sisters...
and then whoever else shows up, shows up.
In the two novels I've been working on the last two years...WHITE characters showed up, because the stories are set in the United States...and those white characters are some of the most interesting, multi-layered characters that I've ever written (not that white readers would necessarily like them).
But then again...a Cherokee Indian woman has also shown up and nearly taken over one of my upcoming novels. Her strength and beauty haunted me as I wrote and she became the broth for the stew to simmer...so to speak.
One of the very best books you could ever read on this subject is the Non-fiction book by TONI MORRISON entitled "PLAYING IN THE DARK"....which exquisitely explores the fact that white writers failed to allow black characters to SHOW UP in their works...when it was so obviously that a black character was screaming to be heard at a pivotol moment. Is that how you spell pivotol?
Political writers/racist writers/sexist writers--all being GOOD writers...will often ignore the different OTHER voices that show up in the telling of a story.
Truth and spirit should cause the book to write itself...and in so doing, the necessary voices should be allowed to find a place in the text. As we increasingly become a culture that mingles and mixes....it's only right that Whites should find themselves featured in the stories of black people's lives.
But it's even better when the black novelists who are writing about those white people....are REALLY black.
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NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 02:46 pm: |
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Kola:
What if the reasons for some whites not including blacks in their novels is maybe they have limited experience being around them? Maybe they'd feel inadequate in capturing a black person's voice or characteristics, or that they'd only do a stereotypical character -- not that this is an excuse. We all feel the same kinds of emotions regardless of skin color, but that's what crossed my mind when I read your post. Great post, by the way.
And as black people, we are great observers -- always looking, feeling, digesting information. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 02:56 pm: |
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Because we have been observing white people all of our lives in order to circumvent and manipulate them, blacks are more capable of authetically portraying white characters. White people probably have to do research before writing about black people and, even then, they don't always capture their essence. If the plot calls for it, why wouldn't white people appear in a black novel. They do, after alll, make great antagonists. LOL |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:07 pm: |
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NeeCee:
Re some white writers not including blacks in their novels I think that there are great numbers of white people who never even SEE a black person unless its on television or at a movie. I think that they can genuinely portray an experience that is totally free of African Americans.
Now that I think of it, most of my intteractions with white folks are at a superficial level--I think though it is unlikely that they have no contact at all with White folks, they would be minor characters in most black folks stories. |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:16 pm: |
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Bingo, there ya go, Chris. Some people are not exposed to Blacks or have limited experience. Their perceptions are based on MTV, movies, or athletic competitions. Some kids go away to college and it's their first time experiencing multi-cultural diversity.
Although there are a lot more non-AA writers including black characters, some people do question why. It's not a new thing (To Kill A Mockingbird), but you still wonder... |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:50 pm: |
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NeeCee I'm not disputing your original argument. In fact, I agree with you. Whites should not be included just because the writer wants to woo white readers. But whites have LONG done the same job on black readers.
NeeCee and Cynique--
Faulkner, Hemingway and Willa Cather... all of whom Toni Morrison criticized so brilliantly in "Playing IN the Dark"...had NO EXCUSE for not portraying "authentic" characterizations of the black people that were skittishly mentioned in their so called "masterpieces".
Hemmingway lived a great deal of his life in Africa...surrounded by Africans. Yet he totally dehumanized them in all his works (or as Morrison pointed out, he STOLE their good points and inserted those characteristics into his White characters--which is quite evident).
Faulkner "patronized" blacks and wrote of them as one writes about a pet.
Willa Cather, who wrote an entire novel about black slave women--as brilliant as she was, still managed to leave out "details of black women's humanity"...which it's clear she knew existed by the way she wrote the text.
ATLEAST Mark Twain was more honest--although even he failed to write "everything he knew".
Of course, it could be argued that "mixed race" black writers of the early 20th century are guilty of the same exact thing--their dehumanizing portraits of darker blacks are just as racist and EXCLUSIONARY as the ones by whites.
And even recently....remember the novel "The Wind Done Gone" by Alice Randall? She immediately focused on the relationship between a biracial sister of Scarlett O'Hara--her life in relation to her white sister.......rather than
.......the story of the biracial sister's relation to her nappyheaded, full black sister working in the fields.
The point BEING....that the lives of those deep dark nappyheaded women in the fields (who were the Vast majority of slave women)....were not even mentioned as having a life or being of any relation to Randall's Mulatto "imitation of Scarlett" or the real authentic Scarlett herself.
Do you see how even WE get caught up in the act?
I AGREE WITH MORRISON..."you cannot write about the lives of any white folks in America, no matter what level and class the story, and not have blacks featured prominently in the proceedings."
CHECK THIS:
**I don't know anything at all about Cherokee Indians.
But when my character "Praying Mantis" kept showing up with her hands on her hips and gnawing at my pshyche...I took out two weeks and researched her people and their beliefs. To my astonishment...it turned out that the Cherokees are nearly IDENTICAL to the Kordofan tribe of my homeland in Sudan. The Kordofan live in the North (where I am from)...way up in the hills...and my birth mother used to buy herbs and medicines from them. I remember the long trips to their villages when I was a small child.
I was shocked, to say the least, when I saw the "CLOTHING"...the customs, laws and rituals of the Cherokee Indians...all identical to the Kordofan (only skin color and hair texture separates them--they LOOK nothing alike).
As Toni Morrsion points out--it doesn't take much for a highly educated white male writer to ask his black maid to sit down and tell him about her home life, her people's background, her feelings.
Even when people withhold information...a smart person can still retrieve the truth--because we really do have more in common than not. Even a William Faulkner and a slop jar girl have more in common...than not.
The only problem is.....it's hard for Blacks to write "truthfully" about whites...without it being very uncomfortable for the white reader. That is the problem that editors have had with my own upcoming books. They feel that I write these fascinating white characters.....who are basically JEALOUS of blacks and resentful of black existence in the midst of their own.
I've especially been accused of being UNFAIR in my portrayals of white women. But I truly believe that BLACK WOMEN readers will see that I have not been unfair....I have simply been bold enough to point out some things about White American WOmen...that most black American female authors would, for the sake of "getting along", rather not broach.
I love writing about White women--because as my Dinka Aunt told me--"Everything she has, including what she thinks of herself, is at the expense of someone else."
When writing about white women, I like to focus on--"Including what she thinks of herself". This one single line makes the White woman extremely fascinating.
**Including what she thinks of herself**
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NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:54 pm: |
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Kola,
AWESOME! |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:57 pm: |
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Kola:
Is there any black writer you feel has written truthfully about whites? |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:05 pm: |
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Hi Chris.
For the most part--I think that MOST "literary" black writers have written truthfully about whites.
James Baldwin, Alice Walker and Toni Morrison writing the MOST in-depth and truthfully about whites.
I think that Richard Wright and Ellison wrote about whites, but still maintained a caricature quality...and in Wright's case...he often "fantasized" about them in a sense.
WHAT I DON'T APPRECIATE...is how black men write about black women in their works...as opposed to how they write about white women. THey seem to have an abundance of stereotypes about black women--and seem not to have ever met a black female who was attractive with a free spirit (unless, of course, she had generous infusions of white blood). In many ways, I find that Black male writers tend to defeat their own purpose (equality) by "accidentally" portraying black women as the "source"...of all things flawed and insufferable.
But, miraculously, they have a great understanding and intellect of social factors when it comes to...the white woman.
This is why I despise the work of John Edgar Wideman, who doesn't do it on purpose, but still...he, along with Ishmael Reed, Amiri Baraka and Walter Mosely (who had a white mother)...DOES IT.
Over and over again. I don't appreciate it.
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:12 pm: |
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Now, I know you are stumpin' for the ladies Kola. But there has been no figure more caricaturized in modern literature than AA female authors' incessant lambasting of Black men. It is so bad that to refer to a book written by a AA female as male-bashing is wholly redundant. |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 04:16 pm: |
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Kola, with all due respect, perhaps the black male writers are only writing about what they know, who they've met, what they've seen, etc. Maybe the image of their own relatives or girlfriends, ex-wives, and baby mamas are brought out within their works. I do think that is why, in general, people portray characters the way that they do. It is a combination of what you know, or what you wish you had, the desired fantasy or the lived-through nightmare. I'm okay with it because if it actually does exist, then say it. If it's a lie, then we might have issues. But even when something is the truth, when you are writing what you know, people still may have a problem with it, especially those negative depictions. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 05:00 pm: |
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BUT FOLKS....
WHITE MALES...have not been treated better than AA men in books written by Black women.
Both have been demonized and written about--as they pertained to the lives of Black women.
I would not have a problem with Black men disparaging black women in their literature...if they didn't praise and falsely present the White woman as a savior at the same time.
GOOD EXAMPLE: A black prostitute in one of the author's books is made out to be a promiscuous girl who ended up a whore because...she's got no class, her mama had no class, and she just LIKES IT.....while a White prostitute is given a whole historical background--she's really a good decent woman with a hard life, her circumstances sympathized with and fully fleshed out by the black male author.
No matter what any of you say.
It remains that attractive black women (say aged 19-30)...who LOOK black and are of childbearing age....are SCARCE in literary works by Black male authors. Unless they have the infusions of WHITE blood.
Another thing you can't deny....black women in books written by black male authors tend to portray darkskinned women as "negative" people....lightskinned women as "positive" people (but still not as good as white woman).
BLACK WOMEN WRITERS have not worshipped and praised WHITE MEN in their literature.
I challenge you to read Richard Wright, Ishmael Reed, John Edgar Wideman, Ralph Ellison, Amiri Baraka......and then compare them to Toni Morrison, Alice Walker, Gloria Naylor, Bebe Moore Campbell, Pearl Cleage.
You will find that Black men's books deplore black female characters...and usually FEATURE a white female savior....whereas black women's literature castigates both White and Black men and paints BOTH as abusers of black women.
GO AHEAD...TAKE THE CHALLENGE.
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 10:58 pm: |
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Hello All,
I'm so sorry but I'm going to go there. Most of the books that are more popular to the reading audience don't really need any white characters since the black characters have so many white folks tendencies, its unnecessary to have white characters. NeeCee, I have never heard of black authors including white characters in their books to capture the white audience. I think your statement is more true for black TV situation comedies where there is always at least one goofy white person on the show no matter how misplaced and nonsensical it is for that white person to be there.
I haven't read all of the books that you mentioned but I have read Your Blues Ain't Like Mine. Of course White folks have to be in that book, how else is the Emmett Tell like character going to get lynched by whistling at a white woman. The boy wouldn't be killed for whistling at a black one, would he? In some books it is essential. Frankly, from all of the interracial relationships I'm seeing nowadays, it would almost be a figment of fantasy NOT to have white characters in books, if they are as you claim a true reflection of what's going on. |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, July 26, 2003 - 05:55 am: |
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Kola:
I agree with your comments about the lightskinned vs. blackskinned portrayls in books, and the comments about a white prostitute vs. black were enlightening as well. I read Pearl Cleage and Richard Wright and can go take a second look. Thanks!! |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:17 pm: |
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Kola:
Pleasure provide novel(s)and character(s)in which Wideman demonizes a black woma/en. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 06:39 pm: |
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Yukio:
As far as I'm concerned, all of Wideman's books--both fiction and non-fiction...merely by their claim to be celebrating and exploring the "black experience"....are contemptuous and denigrating to the black woman...MAINLY....by her absence.
Or when she is present...by her marginalization (a condition that doesn't seem to affect the good white women in his work)...Black women are "reliable" mules in Wideman's work, if ever such was. Or they're mysterious, unnamed strippers that he's embarrassed of...or they're plain, disinteresting "mothers" of noble young black men who go on to be "ass-kissy" whiners about the immorality of white men...all the while longing, as Wideman does in my opinion....to BE a white man.
It's no secret that I detest John Edgar Wideman and all his works.
But I certainly wouldn't object to others loving him, praising him and enjoying his work. My mother likes his books. Kinda.
I just don't.
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ABM
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 08:05 pm: |
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Kola,
I suspect the male authors you negatively refer to were themselves often rejected by many Black women during their youth, maybe because they uncool, bookish, nerds who lost out to smoother slicker brothers. Then, as the authors progressed into their young adulthood, they happened upon several obliging White women, who championed their artistic endeavors, nursed their fragile egos and warmed their beds.
Consider, who are the Black men who are mostly likely to become great, prolific writers: Lonely, isolated, emotionally bereft sorts who, because they in some ways feel rejected, especially by Black women, turn to reading/writing as a place of mental & emotional refuge.
This would be consistent with why so many Black female authors trash brothahs in their books.
Now, assuming that that they above is often true, I stiil am not saying that this warrants their literary mistreatment of sistahs. But I find it to be interesting that I personally know several fairly successful, educated Black men whose first and, often, only comfortable and viable intimate encounters and relationships were with non-Blacks females. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 10:42 pm: |
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I agree with what you say, ABM. If we can divest the subject from all of the histrionics and the political agendas, it is pertinent to note that there are many factors at work in the black man/black woman dynamic. I remember reading something actor Yaphett Koto once said about this subject. He said he was rejected at ever turn by black women some of them even called him scary looking and repulsive. But white women thought he was interesting and exotic looking and liked him for himself. And at this point I think it's also noted that there are lots of dark-skinned women out there who are not rejected by brothers, and who get just as much play as any other woman. These women are not the "tragic" figures they are made out to be. I just wish some of them would speak up.
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Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 10:59 pm: |
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ABM and CYNIQUE---
as usual, you ignored what I wrote.
I don't like Wideman because he's a "nigger". That's why.
I don't respect the "aim" in his work. He whines about the White man, but then, he's not a man to me. In my opinion, he's more upset that he's NOT WHITE...than wants equality for all humankind.
I notice this about MANY Black American male authors. The black women are more for black people--but the men--they're just whining that they don't get to run General Motors and have a White wife and a BLack maid.
That's what I see. Niggers.
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Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 11:02 pm: |
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Cynique--
You're just a lightskinned Part-Indian chick who's FULL of it.
No black women ever told O.J. Simpson or John Edgar Wideman or Kobe Bryant or 80% of the "colorstruck" Black men in our society...that they were "repulsive".
You're just FULL of it.
And before folks like yourself get rid of the "N" word...I think you ought to get rid of the niggers.
They are eating us black folk alive.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 11:08 pm: |
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Kola,I don't know anybody who's more full of ANYTHING than you and your half-breed Amazon self. Are you off of your meds again, sweetie? Go somewhere and knit some booties. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 11:23 pm: |
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Cynique--go get a face lift and ditch those bifocals for a decent pair of contacts. Green to go along with your envy.
Now please bug off, Haggatha.
I really don't feel like fighting with your black gummed sorry ass.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 11:40 pm: |
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Gotcha! When you stoop to the insults I know you have no intelligent response to make, you big dork! ROTFLOL! |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, July 27, 2003 - 11:58 pm: |
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Hello All,
You know part of the old saying, "...every closed eye ain't sleep"? |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 02:44 am: |
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Kola:
I understand what you think, but what novels, non-fiction, etc...does he seem to desire to be a white man? How would you characterize his aim?
What of Wideman's treatment of his grandmother in Sent for You Yesterday? The mother in Two Cities?
I've much of Wideman's literature, interviews, but none of his non-fiction, and I definitely see his desire for white woman, but not necessarily an edification of white women over black women. I don't see his desire to be a white man either, but see his affirmation of black people, african, caribbean, and african american. I ask so that i can reread and re-evaluate his work, etc....
Even his treatment of the sister that lived to tell the tell in Philadelphia Fire was redemptive.
Thank you in advance! |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 04:10 am: |
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Yukio,
Wideman is a gifted writer. He's a meticulous and thoughtful artist. He's a visionary...in much the way that DuBois and the Octoroons who created the NAACP were a visionaries.
All that I will give him.
But the Zarpunni have a question they ask of women--"Would you give birth to this man?"
It's the highest question that a woman can be asked.
If they asked me that about Wideman, I would answer--"No."
I'm not here to turn anyone else against him...but I personally detest him and have no respect for him or for what "I perceive" his work to be about. I'm not going to go into it any further...because I'll only alienate myself from you and others, which I've done quite enough. People can become quite sensitive and take my words personally..."because you can't hear my voice", the weight of my words can be very heavyhanded...and cruel.
I will say that I have not perceived his work the way that you have...and I most certainly see an "aim" and an "agenda" in his work that I feel is AGAINST my own people and my own children.
As I said, SOME blacks have a flair for "talking out of two sides of their mouths"...and if you pay close enough attention, you will see that the master they serve...is not the self.
I despise Wideman and pray for us to someday have a better son than him.
And remember, Yukio...the day will come when countless male writers will write essays inwhich they attack "ME" and write about what a dizzy, insufferable bitch I was...overrated...a "star" who showed her tits. Full of herself.
It's just an opinion. Please...go on loving Wideman and admiring his work. TO YOU...he means something.
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Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 07:40 pm: |
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Kola:
Thank You! |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 09:51 pm: |
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Yukio,
A little lesson about "perception".
THE STORY:
You might remember this from the newsmagazine 20/20 several years back.
They did this report about an Ohio BLACK MAN (single/in his thirties)...who moved from one of the black areas of a large city (I think Cincinatti)...and settled in an all-white town.
20/20 devoted their entire hour program to the story--because the story ended when the man was about 45.
The Whites of the town reacted violently to his arrival. They threw paint on his door--called him "nigger" on the street, threw bottles and cans at him...spit on him in the grocery store...asked him NOT to attend their churches (and eventually escorted him out of a church)
...When he tried to get a white woman to join him for a date--he was dragged in the street and beaten. He could not get a job in town...so he went to court and ended up receiving SSI and welfare. He refused to budge.
He went to court to fight his landlords (who, after the outcry tried to evict him). He ended up...in fact...in a 10 year (I SAID 10 year court battle)...for a myriad of reasons all stemming to the fact that these white people did not want him in their town.
**I watched this report with a group of African American friends. They cheered him! They cursed and sucked their teeth at the Whites who spoke on camera about not wanting him in their town...they nodded and clapped as the Black man told of his determination to "not be moved"...because he had the right to live where he wanted.
WANTED.
At the end of the broadcast, Barbara Walters hugged the man outside his home...(he had won all his court cases)...the whites had resolved to simply ignore him...he would go on living in the town...vowing that his 10 years of hell would be followed by "a lifetime of victory and PEACE".
He closed his door and stayed there...in that town, because...."I am a human being just like they are!"
My friends all cheered him.
I, of course, sat in silence. And you know why?
THE TRUTH:
The victory...went to the Whites.
Yukio...this man hated his own people so deeply...that he was willing to GIVE AWAY 10 years of his life...just to LIVE WITH a town full of white bigots.
FOR THESE WHITE PEOPLE...and for his monotonous "obsession" with being close to their evil...he was willing to sacrifice his own life...
I ask you...1) Was he saving the lives of black children?....NO. 2) Even if the Whites someday embraced him--what more could he ever become other than the town "Mascot"?
Yukio...what kind of "Human Being"...can go the rest of their lives without laying eyes on their own kind?
What kind of black man is content to never see little black boys and girls playing in the street...or to watch a pretty black woman from behind as she carries her head basket to and from the market?
What kind of black man is content to spend the rest of his life paying fat, white prostitutes at the Truck Stop for sex...when his own black queen outnumbered him 8 to 1 and he could have had a woman who could have brought his own image back into the world???
This "heroic" black man, Yukio...HATED his own people....and was celebrated by his own people FOR IT.
A nigger, Yukio. That's really what he is. Not a hero!
..."The real victory"...went to the Whites.
+++
You don't understand my dislike for the genius writer Wideman (who IS brilliant, yes).
But this is the same "faux heroism" that I see in his work. I've read 6 of his books, and of those ones...it was always the same "promise" of a black man's story...but by the end of the book...Wideman was back to his cabin with a pan of grits on his lap--IMO.
Let me tell you something...about half way through Wideman's books...I'm always expecting him to rise from the ashes and present to us his progeny--a tall, strapping black warrior boy with African hair and proud African features.
Of course...Wideman has not been capable of this.
And I ask you Yukio...what good is all this intellect and knowledge about evil racism...if we can't save our own children?
WHAT YEAR, YUKIO....will this "inner sickness" be healed and no longer tolerated by so called black people?
You keep talking all your PAN-AFRICAN stuff...BUT WHERE, YUKIO...is the fruit of the tree?
And why should I be enamored of these "revolutionaries" whose reluctance to "reproduce our own image"...continuously leads us back to the cotton patch?
What...YUKIO...will become of our "culture" once all of our mothers are Caucasoid White women--or the Eurocentric offspring of such women?
Give one damn reason that I should admire John Edgar Wideman?
And why am I considered so "radical" among people who call themselves...Black?
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Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 11:05 am: |
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Kola:
Interesting story. I've never watched that particular story, but it is a typical one, which is present throughout Africa and "African" disaspora. In Marechera's House of Hunger, there is a short story called Black Skins What Mask, which is similar to your 20/20 story. Also, there are debates between African philosophers(as it pertains to ethnophilosohy) that also indicate similar themes. The basics are: protagonist fights for "justice," often individual equality, but does not fight for cultural preservation.
I agree with most of your conclusions from the 20/20 program, BUT how you came to your conclusions(method) are not very persuasive.
It SEEMS like your thinking process was, "If this...then therefore that...!" You know information about a person, but that information does not tell you everything/all about the person!
In other words, if african americans affirm the man's behavior, THEN they are not concerned with self-preservation, affirming black images, etc....
I could be misrepresenting your points, but this seems like your logic....If so, it is problematic!
In addition, even if what you assume about your friends and the man in 20/20 is true, the questions is, Are these people representative from African Americans? Are your views representative of Africans?
I can't understand what you feel about Wideman, because you have not shown me WHY...you've told me, but not illustrated it through a particular book, character, scene, etc.....
You other questions:
And I ask you Yukio...what good is all this intellect and knowledge about evil racism...if we can't save our own children?
Many people think his fictions does. I think his literature is honest to how he sees the world. I think his literature uses black cultural literary devices, as demonstrated through his narratives....never linear, and his characters...Reuben, for example. Does this save our children no, does it illustrate a non-western literary form? Yes!
WHAT YEAR, YUKIO....will this "inner sickness" be healed and no longer tolerated by so called black people?
The inner sickness will never be healed in all of us.....we are all different, and most people, from an individual standpoint(African, European, Latin AMerican, etc..) are not interested in cultural preservation unless they are confronted by overt cultural eradification, only human preservation....to eat, work, make money, provide for family, etc....I believe that MOst african americans don't know they have a culture, and especially not an african one. I don't even think they understand how culture works, it's purpose, etc....call me cynique...but thats what i think!
You keep talking all your PAN-AFRICAN stuff...BUT WHERE, YUKIO...is the fruit of the tree? The fruit is in the ending of de jure slavery(not defacto) in the Americas and colonization in Africa! Is the WAR over? NO!
And why should I be enamored of these "revolutionaries" whose reluctance to "reproduce our own image"...continuously leads us back to the cotton patch?
I don't know what "revolutionaries" you're talking about. And if we're talking about geting out of the "cotton patch," then that pertains to the political, spiritual, social, economic, and cultural front! And we have soldiers and intellectuals doing all of this. Are they contradictory? Yes! But are they doing some good? Yes? Is this battle under one umbrella? NO!
What...YUKIO...will become of our "culture" once all of our mothers are Caucasoid White women--or the Eurocentric offspring of such women? It will be gone, perhaps. I can not predict the future, unfortunately!
Give one damn reason that I should admire John Edgar Wideman?
Many reasons, but you have already made your decision, which is why in my last response i said "thank you" in order to end this particular dialogue.
And why am I considered so "radical" among people who call themselves...Black?
I'm not sure what "Black" means or "radical". There are many definitions for both. Again, it SEEMS like you are saying that if you are black then you should think, etc.....! I don't! I say that either i agree with your program or i don't, this is ideological! Being segregated and treated as black people are treated historically in this country is enough for me....color, on the other hand is related but not the main issue, since regardless of color, nationality, ethnicity, if you have a tinge of melanin and kinky hair you'll be beat and killed!
Some people define blackness by how their country does it. Others define it by color(which is how your country and continent does it) others define it by their political ideology(as you also do), and i'm sure their are many other ways.....each country and continent has it own, and living within that country, an individuals have to deal their own countries definitions...
In other words, you can be phenotyically black and not have a "progressive" ideology for phenotypical black people!
I don't know if you are radical, because i'm not sure what radical means!
Finally Kola, this discussion has changed to what we always about, Your positions and why some black americans can not/do not understand or live up to your position. Interesting, but this discussion should not be in the AAL category, and I was interested in you addressing DIRECTLY Wideman's literature, which you have not done.
It seems that you are sensitive to the fact that some black americans do not affirm your beliefs. If this is the case, i suggest that you accept it, understand and even appreciate that people have other views, and continue fighting your fight!
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:04 pm: |
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I agree with your response, Yukio. Furthermore, Kola Boof with her clouded vision cannot give anybody a lesson in perception. Because she is so desperately in need of being validated by the acceptance and adoration of others, she cannot discern that the man in question was fighting for a principle. He didn't care whether his neighbors liked him or not. Being ostracized by them didn't deter him because he wasn't seeking their approval. He was holding his ground. Because it was his ground! |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 02:16 pm: |
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All:
I didn't see the 20/20 story. I remember a story like this on 60 Minutes about a black man out in Colorado. They think this white neighbor wanted his land--anyway, based on some reports he was fooling around with some white women (!) they ran him off the road, shot at him, beat him up, finally broke in on the brother, strung him up from the rafters in his own house and tortured him with pliers on his genitals.
He wound up leaving the county. It was sad.
You know everybody is not a fighter and some people only resist passively.
For myself I would be wary of moving into an all white town. I know if they told me I was not welcome, I would not go. I know if they started some mess while I was there, I would not stay--of course I don't know what it would take to make me think it was going to be ok--they elected me the mayor?
At one time I would have thought that I should fight it out with them. But life is too short. It's hard enough living around people you like without all that. And I hate these stories with the white folks slapping the blacks on the back for being punching bags in these situations--we're talking about a place you don't have to go, I assume.
Are there times where a black person might have to find himself or herself in such a situation? I would hope not. I think I would be on trial right now for several assaults with deadly weapon, at least. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 03:03 pm: |
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Chris, I certainly wouldn't have done what this man did. But he made the choice to defy his detractors. So more power to him. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 05:13 pm: |
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Thanx for proving my point.
My point was...that people from Environment 1 might interpret this man's actions differently from someone from a different environment.
There are plenty of black shopgirls at the Macy Counter....or black teachers in white school districts...who DEFER their blackness to the dominant society's whiteness on a daily basis...just as this man did with his life.
And Yukio...make no mistake...there are MILLIONS of African Americans who would have NEVER put up with all that crap--I'm sure even a majority of AAs would have refused to live with those bigots--however, it's the ones such as this man that the Whites put the spotlight on and hold up as a hero. "Oh, look how bad the darkie loves us! Isn't it impressive?"
LIKEWISE...an extreme number of people in this country have responded negatively to my appearing topless on the back of my books, because it's so radically foreign to their notions of "female gentry"....it's mostly cultural PERCEPTION, Yukio (as I was pointing out). Which was the point I was trying to make about Wideman.
To me, he's the non-threatening "placating hero" that whites (and white-like blacks) like to hold up in glory...while they ignore Kalamu Yaa Salaam, never print his name in their papers and hope he'll go away and not advance. Both Wideman and Salaam are genius talents--but I respect the art of the lesser talent over the greater, because it nourishes my life.
And if you don't know what a revolutionary is--then read how Malcolm X and Gil Scott Heron defined revolutionaries. Amazingly, they came to the same conclusions that Achebe, Nasser and other "Pan-African" leaders reached...that there can be No Change without revolution...and that there can be no revolution without some measure of physical FORCE.
I agree.
And YUKIO...this is the most pathetic thing you've ever said:
"It will be gone, perhaps. I can not predict the future, unfortunately!"
HOW CAN A WOMAN, YUKIO...a woman having a womb...have no control over the future???
You keep proving my point. Your answer to the obliteration of Black people was that you can't predict the future and are powerless to stop it.
B.S.!!!
EVERY HUMAN BEING...has the POWER...to change the world and to affect the future. White folks change this world on a daily basis. You don't have to PREDICT the future, Yukio...just ENVISION IT. And use everything you have to make it the way that you want it. Hopefully...yours....like mines...will be populated by self-loving black children (of all the points of light that make up blackness)...living and nurturing the planet earth...AS THEMSELVES.
And let me tell you something about my "thinking process".
My thinking process is a lot more clear, competent and complex than your LACK of immediate cultural standards...most evidently, with the survival and well being of Black children at the center of those standards--which is NATURAL in women no matter where they are in the world. Of course, something so simple as that seems to elude you--time and time again. You're so busy being smart....that as I said, your intelligence cannot save our children.
If you don't stand for something...you'll fall for anything. A truthful American proverb.
And no matter how you and others continuously delete my "experience"...I am from the world's OLDEST "multi-cultural" opec...North Africa. Sudan alone having 15 declared "races", 242 ethnicities and 277 languages.
I ALL KNOW ABOUT...multi-culturalism and the ancient practice of "niggerizing" Africans.
As Egypt's acclaimed Arab woman writer Nawaal El Sadawii wrote--"The only thing that diversity does...is divides us from our own people."
That man who GAVE HIS LIFE to live with a bunch of white people who despised him....and Cynique's idiotic assertion that (Unlike Kola Boof) he wasn't seeking validation and exceptance--is the FULL CIRCLE proof of what I am saying. SOME OF US...only know the way back to the cotton patch. And delude ourselves into thinking that we've done something heroic--
even worse--many of us refuse to acknowledge that this "slave mentality" is still prevalent.
Cynique claims the man defied his detractors. Yukio you claim that some African philosophers would also agree that he defied his detractors...although...this man didn't OBJECT to their racism (take a stand) and then leave after a reasonable time....HE'S STILL THERE...and "wanted" to be there...with THOSE people.
And it's very likely....that if those whites "embraced" him and made him the town mascot...he would sit around quietly while they told their nigger jokes and racist remarks. AND HE WOULD JESS GRIIIIINNNNNN.
Even their white hatred was BETTER than the comrade-ship and common ground he could have found with his own kind.
Whether in America, Africa or Brazil....this is what a "nigger" is, Yukio.
Look at Condaleeza Rice right now. Standing up there being "heroic". Poor thing.
But anyway--it's my "perceptions" about the THEMES of Wideman's work that make me liken him...to the man fighting in OHIO. It's a PERCEPTION that I can't shake or overlook. That is how I see him, Yukio.
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:02 pm: |
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Hello All,
OK, Kola, we got all of that other political, Black man should do this and that and the other. I'm ready to move on.
Yukio asked you a question concerning Wideman's literature, especially, where in his literature, did he demonstrate all of the things that you are holding against him? I love Wideman's works. I've been a huge fan of his for a few years now, since I read his novel The Cattle Killing. I have no idea where you came up with your conclusions. Just because I don't see it, does not mean that its not there. If you could point it out to us, I would appreciate it. I haven't read a lot of his books, but this discussion may light a fire under my butt. |
Susan
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:32 pm: |
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Thumper,
Don't hold your breath waiting on those citations. Yukio asked twice *very* specfic questions, a couple of days ago, and there has yet to be a mention of a book title, a chapter or even a page number. Been everything else mentioned but what Yukio asked about. . . O. J., n*ggers, the television show 20/20, Macy's department store, bare breasts, etc.
Susan |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 06:34 pm: |
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Dear Lord, what would all of us poor native African Americans do if we didn't have that carpetbagger interloper "Kooka" Boof to show all of us the way. What her credentials are, I don't know. She has no victories to her credit. Sorry, Thumper, I just couldn't resist. I'm done. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 07:29 pm: |
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Kola:
Interestly, this conversation has changed from white characters, wideman(not his literature), and NOW/FINALLY, AS USUAL a personal/confrontational attack. Typical, unfortunately.
I will not do the same, as usual.
1. Wideman with all of his awards and genius is not mainstream. I don't think of his book, Lynchers as placating, Philadephia Fire, etc...and you have not provided an example within his work. I'm not defending him, just asking you to identify examples so i can revisit his work...not that serious!
2. I didn't say that i didn't know what revolutionary means, I stated that i didn't know who you were talking about, especially since you put it in quotes, which makes the term revolutionaries loaded.
3."EVERY HUMAN BEING...has the POWER...to change the world and to affect the future. White folks change this world on a daily basis. You don't have to PREDICT the future, Yukio...just ENVISION IT. And use everything you have to make it the way that you want it. Hopefully...yours....like mines...will be populated by self-loving black children (of all the points of light that make up blackness)...living and nurturing the planet earth...AS THEMSELVES."
I agree with all that you have said. To envision is hope and struggle. BUT my point is that NOTHING is guaranteed, which is why i stated, "And if we're talking about geting out of the "cotton patch," then that pertains to the political, spiritual, social, economic, and cultural front! And we have soldiers and intellectuals doing all of this. Are they contradictory? Yes! But are they doing some good? Yes? Is this battle under one umbrella? NO!," suggesting that there are people with vision and agendas, and proscriptions that are raising men and women to have a better future.
4."most evidently, with the survival and well being of Black children at the center of those standards--which is NATURAL in women no matter where they are in the world. Of course, something so simple as that seems to elude you--time and time again. You're so busy being smart....that as I said, your intelligence cannot save our children."
It didn't elude me...you directly asked the question and I answered; earlier, I even mentioned cultural("black")-preservation. Again, re-read my answer in point #3.
It is ironic that i asked very simple questions, and you NEVER engaged my questions, only change the conversation to promote your ideological positions.
Interestly, I don't even disagree with much of what you stated, but you can not even dialogue with people, unless they focus on your points when you want them to. This has been a lecture, not a discussion. It has been one-sided....
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Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 04:16 pm: |
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Susan--
You can kiss my ass. How's that for a citation, Pony Girl?
Kola Boof
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Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 04:16 pm: |
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And that's before I stomp my foot up yours.
Kola Boof |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 06:13 pm: |
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Hello All,
I apologize for not doing something sooner. One bad apple will always eventually spoil the bunch. I thought I had it under control but obviously I didn't. See, I told, off-line, Kola Boof to watch her mouth. This is a discussion board for grown folks. I ain't here to babysit. Disagreements are always welcomed, when it is presented with respect. Telling someone to "kiss my ass" ain't getting it. Kola and I have had this little discussion before via email. Only a fool disbelieves that fat meat is greasy. I allowed her to continue posting as long as she acted like she had some sense. Sure her posts were long winded and frankly, I was bored by all the rhetoric, but as long as she was respectful about it, I had no problems. Seeing as how Kola is not able to control herself, I'm asking her to leave. Which is a nice way of putting it, but I'm doing more than asking, if the truth be told. There it is. If anyone has any objections, comments, criticism, questions, hit me at my email address, I'll do my best to answer.
Kola, hey, I wish I could say that it's been swell, but why should I lie at this stage of our relationship? *eyebrow raised* I think its best that we part here. As my friend Steve's Aunt Lurlie would say, I ain't sayin' you gotta go home, but you gotta get the hell up out of here. Good bye and Good Luck!
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