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Brian Egeston
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 07:24 pm: | 
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You don't have to be Black, but self-publishers in the book industry are discriminated against, treated differently, placed on the short bus if you will. Of course there are exceptions—those of us that pick so much cotton, i.e. sell so many books, we are allowed to come inside for supper.
But for the most part, SP is looked down upon. Why is it, that during a time when self-produced movies, i.e. independent films, are revolutionizing the film industry, independent books are still subjected to Jim Crow citizenship?
I’m curious what this forum thinks about this issue. Do any readers here give special tolerance to SP books because they’re you know...they’re, well you know... *whispering* self-published.
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 10:54 am: |
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Brian:
There persists the impression that if a book had to be self-published it was not worthy to be brought out--ie if it had been a worthy book a commercial publisher would have picked it up.
That Hemingway, Whitman, and others had to do this, and that this is the only way a lot of groundbreaking work comes out, is not known to the public, which is ignorant. Because I know the history of self publishing I will often take extra time to look at a self published work because it might be something special.
I think the general public's attitude toward self publishing is a cross that self publishers are going to have to bear.
I think independent film producers would take issue with the impression that you have that their efforts are widely accepted-- |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 01:08 pm: |
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Brian, even though I am someone who dabbled in self-publishing, I have to say that I view self-published books with a jaundiced eye. Self-publishing is, after all, the ultimate ego-trip and it is a venue which allows anyone who can afford it to put out a book. Talent is rarely a factor here. Sadly, with few exceptions, all of the self-published books I've read have done little to change my negative opinion. (I might add that, in hindsight, had I been an editor at a big publishing house, I would've rejected my book. It left a lot to be desired.)LOL |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 01:17 pm: |
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Cynique:
You should stop beating yourself up. I'll be glad when I get up your way. We'll get drunk and go fishing. |
Cocowriter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 04:02 pm: |
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I feel self-published books should be evaluated on an individual basis. Unfortunately, so many poorly edited, badly written books, just junk is being thrown out there. I cannot believe people are putting themselves out there for the world to see and not doing everything possible to put out the best possible product. It is essential to have a professional editor, two if necessary but more importantly, a writer needs to have had some training in writing. Anyone can put words on paper but it needs to be done in a way that is presentable and cogent. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 05:29 pm: |
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Cocowriter:
I think a good story can triumph even over poor editing and writing. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 06:09 pm: |
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Hello All,
Chris: I have to disagree with you. A good story can not always triumph over poor editing and writing. We receive a lot...A LOT...of self published books and most of them are not up to snuff at tall! Poor editing, bad writing can kill a story off faster than any bullet or lethal injection. I've seen books from the major publishing houses suffer from the same thing. So, its not exclusively self-published books that are guilty, its just that there are so MANY self-published books that bears this out. I have to go through 50 self-published books (and that's a low estimate) to find 1 good one. All the while saying, "Baby (author), whoever told you that this book was good, ain't your friend!"
I agree with Cocowriter, it is essential to have a professional editor. Not just anybody who says that they are an editor this week, but someone who's work an author can evaluate. And for goodness sake, read! My uncle always said, if you want to be a good writer, be a good reader. |
Anita
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 10:56 pm: |
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Brian:
I agree with a lot of the posts. Most of the self-published books I've read are poorly edited, lack plot, and feature bland characters. What bothers me more,though, is when the same authors continue to "write" books, tour, and ignore the most important element of writing--honing the craft.
About two months ago, I stood in the magazine aisle at Kroger and howled after reading Mat Johnson's take on self-published books/authors in an interview featured in Savoy. I beamed when he said he decided not to take that route and took the time to learn to write. His effort shows in both "Drop" and "Hunting In Harlem."
There are a few authors who supercede the rule of writing poor, self-published books. Usually, these are folks who've opened a vein and bled all over the place for the sake of creativity. I hope the legion of self-published authors hoping to gain critical success follow suit. There are too many "writers" who can't see the forest for the trees. |
Cocowriter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:17 am: |
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Chris, I'm sorry but do you really believe what you said? I am a writer and reviewer. As a reviewer, as Thumper has said, I see SP books churned out without benefit of editing and they are not even reviewable. If I get through it, I take down a whole point. A book that would be a 4 automatically becomes a 3 with poor editing. I believe a good story deserves fine tuning. I also aree with the points Anita made. |
Sis E
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 08:54 am: |
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Hi Brian and All,
Brian, I'm glad you brought this issue to this board, as I've read the posts on that other board which "seems" to be primarily made up of self-published and "wanna be-published" folks and they are especially incensed by Book Page's actions. Good writing is good writing, but good editing is probably even better.
With technology's advantages today a whole lotta folks are able to put stuff out there into the world without really realizing the importance of quality writing. Just because books by some "legit" publishers contain typos and are poorly written shouldn't give anyone else who wishes to be published the feeling that they can do the same without presenting the very best that he or she can produce. Your name goes on what you share with the world, imho.
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Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 09:01 am: |
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Chris H.
I also agree with thumper and cocowriter! I'm not a review nor a writer, only an intermediate reader, and good fiction has chemistry among plot, story, style, tone, etc....and these literary elements usually operate to mutually reinforce the effectiveness of the other elements. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:58 am: |
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Cocowriter, Yukio and Thumper:
For starts, after the Harry Potter Craporama it is obvious that it is all about the Benjamins--about sales. I was just reading a Black Film Director (I think it was Bill Duke but I have to recheck) give an interview where he shot the auteur theory of film all to hell. Making films is not about Art, it is all about getting butts in seats and getting out books is not about art it is about how many you can sell. In addition I have seen many poorly edited sloppy books that put this Years Granta Writer of the Future to Shame.
But suppose it is sloppily edited, poorly written, and a piece of sludge? We act as though we are personally affronted because someone put out a bad book--all we have to do is put it down--we don't have to read the whole thing or buy it.
Further, your arguement, while laudible, smacks of that trotted out by many established poets, snobs and pallid bloodless elitists, mostly, who insist that neophytes need to write and study for some years (at least seven, according to one) before they ever submit anything for publication or do a public reading--advice they never took themselves usually. Somebody out there might have a hell of a story to tell or something to say that the establishment does not want said, and he can't afford a professional editor. Should he wait until we sniff the air about him and say "Now is your time?' He or she, after all, is the one who is going to have to take the brickbats if he has made a fool of himself.
I'm thinking of the raw power of the poorly printed sometimes mimeographed broadsides of the Beat Poets, the sloppy smudged Black Panther Party papers, the first Underground Comics, full of mistakes and typoes but still pulsing with naked energy. Would you dismiss the slave narratives because the people were unlettered and illiterate? What about the early gut bucket blues, rock n roll, primitive, raw, imperfect, created by field hands and jailbirds, yet full of a spirit that influences young white musicians all over the world today?
Come out of your ivory towers! Smell the sweat, blood and funk of the folk writers! Share their typoes and bad grammar with them! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 12:10 pm: |
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What we are seeing in the self-publishing world is the end result of what has been happening in America's educational systems. Shoving aside all of the old tried and true methods that provided a child with a good education, a new school of thought prevailed, one where teachers, reluctant to tamper with a child's self-esteem, avoided criticism of any kind. This carried over into English classes where correct spelling and proper grammar and good sentence structure in children's themes and essays were never empasized for fear of thwarting a child's creativity. Now we have a generation of people with an abundance of false self-esteem and a lack of skills and talent thinking they can write best-sellers. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 03:20 pm: |
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Chris H:
You are assuming way too much! Prefering coherence among literary elements is not elistist. If the writing is poor then how can one really appreciate the story, if it is incomprehensible?
IF we are talking about creative literature then the author's artistry is essential for me, and grammar and punctuation do not encompass "artistry" because it is more about practice than artistic, more scienctific than creative.
And if the purpose of the fiction is political, then it should be evaluated as a political treatise, but if it attempts to be "creative" then it should be open to literary criticism. |
Cocowriter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 03:32 pm: |
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Well said Cynique. Now folks are offended if you correct them. "We just keepin' it real. Stop hatin' on my Ebonics". Okay, I'm being sarcastic. Chris, I fully understand and agree there has to be room allowed for the word of the masses to get out. I was not speaking of the poets who sell their chap books on Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley for $5.00 a pop or the political activists that hand out their tracts nor am I talking about by no means those stories that are written in the dialect of the characters. I am a great lover of the slave narratives. That is not at all what I am referring to. I am talking about plunking down my hard-earned money for a book anywhere from $15-$20 for a paperback book that does not fall into the aforementioned categories and getting poorly written, unstructured, don't even have the sense to go through a spell-check books that are just warmed over leftovers from the traditionally published books that publishers don't want and getting insulted. Someone has raved about their book like it is the next Invisble Man and NOT. I won't limit this to self-publishers either. In the past year I have read and or/reviewed books by big name publishers that were poorly edited. There is even one publisher that I don't want to read their books anymore but it is beyond the poor editing, they are hiring folk THAT CAN'T WRITE. Which brings me to your other argument. Nobody said you had to have seven years of schooling or a MFA in writing. BY NO MEANS. That is elitist. HOWEVER, at some point, a writer needs to sit down and learn about point of view, showing, not telling, writing clear concise sentences, correct usage of tenses, in other words a command of the English language. Most of this should have been received by the time one has graduated from high school. And if writing is what you want to do, even if you have a gift for it, there are some mechanics that need to be learned. A writer that is serious about their craft will seek out classes in the community/junior college system, join writers groups, critique groups, sacrifice to go to workshops and conferences, meet and talk to other writers and READ,READ,READ. ALL KINDS OF BOOKS.
Okay, time to get down off the soapbox. Hope you got my drift. |
NeeCee
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 04:50 pm: |
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I come across self-published (sp) books and will peruse them to see if any attract my interest. If it looks like something I don't want to read, I lay the book aside. If it's a book that captivates me, I read it. If it's a great book, it gets recommended. If I read the sp book but it turned out to be not so great, I don't recommend it. This is the same for mainstream books. They can pay an author a phat advance, he can be famous as JLo's fiancee, but if the story doesn't grab me, I don't feel obligated to read that person's book, regardless of how the book was published. Like someone else said, it's like finding the jewels. But this goes with all books because as readers we all value different kinds of storylines and writing styles. Hope this helps. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 05:11 pm: |
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Yukio: Nobody is forcing you to read or buy those books. You can not read them, not buy them, you can pan them, you can tell other people not to read them or not buy them, but you can't tell anybody that they should not put them out--well, you can, but its up to them whether they are listening to you or not.
Cocowriter: Anybody who plunks down money for a book without reading or looking through it first is asking to get bit--after all, how would you know it wasn't a bunch of blank pages? As a writer myself, I agree with you, and this is the method I would use. But what would Spike Lee or Melvin Van Peebles have accomplished with this attitude? What if they had decided--well I can't make a movie until I have served an apprenticeship as a grip etc etc on some Hollywood movies? At some point all of us are wannabes. At some point all of us must get out there and do it--I cringe when I look at my first feeble efforts at poetry I read to people years ago, but at some point you have to get off the pot.
Anybody can do anything they want. This is America. They can put out a book written backwards in crayon if they want--you know what it sounds like? It sounds like you guys are embarassed. It sounds like the literary equivalent of a group of neat, well dressed, well mannered educated blacks, like you no doubt are, out somewhere, say the mall, and you got a bunch of loud, uncouth, brothers and sisters over there making a racket and you feel self conscious. You know what? I have that happen all the time. I even have black folks make comments, white folks make comments about how they are carrying on, I look at 'em like, hey. I don't feel self conscious. Life is too short. That is them. Take a deep breath. You guys did not write those books. Their boorishness in no way reflects on you. After all, do we have the money to hire editors for them? Has any of us gone to the people and said, "hey, I'll pull this into shape for you next time. If you don't have any money, the heck with it. I'll do it for free." I know I haven't. If soembody comes to you, giggling and saying look at this piece of crap, say, screw you and get out of my face. You don't need them anyway. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 06:30 pm: |
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Chris Hayden:
You're slipping! I've never addressed the question of publishing and distribution. I only addressed my preferences as it regards the question of story and good writing, ie: style, tone, language, etc...., and literary criticism in order to determine the efficacy of the story in relation to the other literary elements. |
Cocowriter
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 08:13 pm: |
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Chris,
I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this issue. You are way too defensive and make too many excuses to support your belief. But hey, like you said, this is America and thank God we have freedom of speech (to an extent)and choices in how we present ourselves. I wish you the best in your writing career. |
Snake Girl
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 09:01 pm: |
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I've read a lot of Chris Hayden's work and he's actually a pretty good writer. He has his own unique style to boot. Cynique also writes on above the professional level and has a lot more talent than she's letting on. While I agree that her last book wasn't too good--the WRITING was excellent. And she's a natural editor, too.
As for self-publishing...it's like singing. Nina Simone and Neil Diamond would NEVER have gotten recording contracts if they had done things the "conventional" way. No amount of anything having to do with music would have let those two voices through the flood gates--because their kind of singing is totally by DESIRE to do so; not technical vocal prowess.
In Nina's case, she had an agenda and a mind that was bigger than her "bizarre" delivery (meaning her voice). As we know about black folks...they don't care if you can't sing pretty..as long as you're sincere. This is the point Chris is trying to illuminate.
I imagine that raw heart and a way with words could still manage to out shine a poorly put together presentation...but of course, as Thumper so rightly pointed out, CHRIS, that's unlikely. Especially when you're black or a woman.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 10:28 pm: |
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Chris,
You should probably be an advocate for an avant garde literary genre which embraces the nitty gritty and delivers its message without regard for conventional form or coherent content.
Snake girl, you could've included Macey Gray in your list of raw musical talent.And, personally, I'd rather listen to a unique singer than read an unorthodox writer. I might add that, considering that English is your second languauge, you have very good command of it.
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Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 12:59 am: |
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English is a foreign language for all of us...lol! |
Snake Girl
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 01:05 am: |
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Actually, English is my fourth language.
After Arabic, Timas dialect and French.
Unfortunately, my French these days is laughable. I have nearly forgotten it.
"English" is the language spoken most widely in Southern Sudan...but I am from the North and didn't learn until I was fourteen in the U.S.
I can write it much better than speak it..when I'm very nervous.
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