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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 02:47 pm: | 
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Hello All,
I'm still breaking up the Classic thread.
Anonymous wrote: "Thumper, you stated that the focus should not be, how can you get people who don't read to read. Quite the contray you said. You think the objective should be, how do we get the people that's reading to keep reading.
I have to ask you, why do you feel that way?"
Hello Anonymous, please allow me to explain, fill in a couple of empty spaces sort to speak.
I am an avid reader. Before Waiting to Exhale, I read like a house of fire; Anne Rice, Mary Higgins Clark, Stephen King, oodles and oodles of people. After I discover the internet, mostly Amazon.com, only then did I discover the vast number of AA authors. After 5 years, I read AA authors nearly exclusively. Now, I can't read anything but AA authors, and I love it! BUT, if our authors, the publishing companies, keep putting out the same type of U go girl books, we will stop reading them. I want more than reading the Tornleisha Tales over and over again. There's more to us than just these books. And what our up and coming AA authors need to realize is that those of us who have cut our teeth on good fiction written by white authors DEAMAND the same type of quality from our own authors! Why should I have to lower my expectations because the author is AA, when I would give Anne Rice all kinds of hell if she hit me with the same quality of book? *eyebrow raised*
So you are correct, and avid reader will always find something to read, but whether that wonderful something is by a white or black author is the question, because my money spends the same no matter what book I buy. That's what I'm trying to say. |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 12:44 am: |
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Hey Thumper et al...
I feel a bit differently about this. I also read nearly exclusively AA Authors, but you'll still see my shelves filled with my old favorites as King, Koontz, Patterson, and even my girl Danielle Steele...that's what I read 5-10 years ago.
I am so in awe of all the AA Authors that I hear about on a daily basis and even though I may have grown tired of certain type of books in the past, I merely switch over and give someone else a try; another genre. I can recall vividly back a few years ago I read an Arabesque book, got pissed off and threw the book across the room. Now mind you, I knew the formula of romance books, but I still enjoyed reading them, yet, that particular day I was simply PISSED because everything ended perfectly and everyone rushed off into la-la land. ROFL. At that point, I stopped reading my Arabesque's...did I stop buying them? Nope. (Remember I'm addicted). But I simply got tired of reading them and I started pulling other books off my shelves...by our AA Authors. But I have picked up romance books since then, read them and enjoyed them.
I can't imagine being so disgruntled over one title to stop reading all AA Authors...there are so many out there! In all genres, styles of writing, and on all aspects of life. I also know that there are a LOT of AA Authors out there who are not writing in the same ole "world" as everyone out and I search those out feverishly.
This is not to say that I don't agree with you as far as demanding the same type of quality we would from non-AA authors, because I do. I'm a bit anal when I'm reading because I pick up on the typos, the dangling particples, the misplaced modifiers...and a lot of plot inconsistencies and have to break myself from doing it. There is one book that I read that was really a good story, but the grammatical errors were on every page, in every paragraph. So, I took out my red pen...marked it up and mailed it to the author after asking him if he'd mind. I think those are the type of things we need to do when we see these books below our standards. Additionally, I think a book review or a personal email message to the author could also help authors see what we truly feel vs readers feeling they have to say "great book."
-Tee
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bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 05:56 am: |
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I don't think there's been much great writing published in (the US in) recent years at all. Not by writers of any ethnic group. I pretty much stopped reading fiction in the mid-1990s, except for the Harry Potter books (which are excellent!). Non-fiction is a bit better but it's been overrun by self-help books.
The industry will respond to market changes over time though. If not, the companies will go out of business and new ones will come along. If people stopped buying the poor quality books and the demand went up again for African American fiction published between, say... 1960 and 1995, or from the Harlem Renaissance, the publishing houses would see the trend and they'd look for new work in that vein. Then things would evolve from there.
A good example of this is what's happened with Zora since Alice resurrected her work. Three new books in the last year or so! It's astounding. Also, Oprah using Toni Morrison's work for her book club, led her work into the national bestsellers lists (and she has a well-deserved Nobel Prize now.)
I think getting as much of our literary heritage into school curricula as possible will help (because it will cause a demand for additional printings). Also, if there were more book clubs devoted to the good work than to the newest popular fiction that would help for the same reason.
It's all about the benjamins. We need to spend in our literary community, but primarily on the good stuff. We also need our own publishing houses.
I completely agree with Tee, btw, about poor editing. I find that everywhere, even in the newspapers. I'd like to buy the world a copy of Strunk & White's Elements of Style and tell them to stop rushing through their work! LOL |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 04, 2003 - 06:08 pm: |
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Bookish said: "It's all about the benjamins. We need to spend in our literary community, but primarily on the good stuff. We also need our own publishing houses. I think getting as much of our literary heritage into school curricula as possible will help (because it will cause a demand for additional printings). Also, if there were more book clubs devoted to the good work than to the newest popular fiction that would help for the same reason.
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Hey Bookish, thanks for your feedback...I think this is one reason that I love to see some of the small presses doing their thing. It would be so cool if we had a LARGE small press (sounds funny huh?) that would be a plethora of various authors, investors, etc. to join together and do it...one big thing that would benefit many.
As far as the good work , that's another discussion I have often with book buddies. Who determines what's good? I've read some of the newest popular fiction that to me was above the bar, but that's merely my opinion...and you know how that goes...everyone has one. I do like the idea of more book clubs reading stuff other than the "norm."
I belong to one online book club that I really enjoy (when I can keep up with them), because they read the classics, and they seem more "literary" in their terms of selections...
But, I will admit to being the first one to pick up the latest release...even try to get it before it hits the stands because I LOVE certain authors, and I love getting the scoop on their latest read...popular fiction or not. Ahaha.
-Tee |
bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 05:17 am: |
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Yes, part of the challenge is that you still cannot judge a book by it's cover. You have to read it to actually *know* whether it's good or not, though in the interest of time we all find ways to judge whether or not it's worth reading.
Optimist that I am, I always keep in mind,too, that some authors may publish again and again but have only one work that truly stands out as great. So, it pays to look upon every book as a separate offering.
Recently, I've been looking around to see what I've missed and what the current scene is... there's a lot going on in African American fiction these days. I think it's almost inevitable that pearls will emerge from the ocean, so it's not all bad that so much popular fiction and romance is being published.
I do however believe strongly that there are ways to tell great work from good and from bad, beyond personal opinion. One of the ways people learn to discern is by reading widely, but there is also a fundamental human need for storytelling and when the writing is hot any reader or listener knows it. It doesn't take education or common culture or anything else. It's primal. Like music.
We might find lesser things valuable and necessary on a daily basis for various reasons, but when writing is transcendent there's almost universal consensus. It doesn't matter whether it's presented as popular fiction or classics, or even whether it is actually published or read aloud in a class or friend to friend. Great writing stays with you. It won't leave you alone.  Those works eventually come to light one way or another. As you wrote, you've encountered popular novels that are above the bar. I'm sure we all have sometimes.
I agree with you about the need for a large small press or publishing collective. I think South End Press is a model that merits emulation - not only for publishing but for all "corporations" or groups of people working together. If we could do something like that nationally or in each state or region, we wouldn't have to have conversations like this. That's my fantasy, but economics always rears its ugly head. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 02:22 pm: |
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Hello All,
What an interesting thread this turned out to be. *smile* I do disagree with Tee on the tip of correcting a book and manuscript and then sending it back to the author for correction. It's not only an indication that the author is in trouble but his editors as well. Second, why go through the red marker routine in the first place? *eyebrow raised* It should not be up to us to slow-walk an author through his career, in hope that the time we invest playing English teacher will one day pay off with a well written, grammatically correct book. If you want to make that kind of investment, buy IBM stock. Then what's the incentive to the authors, self-published et al, that have produced the fine books to keep producing good books when we're tutoring the bad ones along. Where's these authors gold stars if you're buying the good books and bad books alike? |
bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 05, 2003 - 11:47 pm: |
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I edit things I read because it distracts me to see errors. Also, it keeps me sharp. I've never sent the items back though. LOL I usually just stop reading those publications.
I don't think authors get incentive from audiences except in the broadest sense - they hope they will have an audience. Most writers never get published and never hit the bestsellers list and never become wealthy by their writing. If you yearn to write, you just do it. You can't keep yourself from doing it without becoming miserable. I believe all of the motivation to write and to write well is internal, straight from the Creator. Just like Tee and I and countless others are editing the mistakes in work that's already published. We have no incentive, just passion.
Again, though, I agree: we have to reward the best with our actual purchasing dollars. This will give publishers an incentive. |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 10:11 am: |
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Bookish/Thumper, thanks for the feedback...bookish, I think you said what I was trying to say We have no incentive, just passion. I have this desire to help others, especialy those authors who have sent their manuscripts to me wanting my input. As for the author I mentioned, he actually wanted me to edit his manuscript, but because of time conflicts with another mss I was working on, I didn't have time. So, he published the book as is. And though I still enjoyed the story, I felt obligated as a reader/friend/almost the editor, to point the things out to him.
And, I'm okay with differing with you guys on what we spend our purchasing dollar on. I'm a booklover and yes I want a GOOD BOOK, however, I want the book period! I have 4 versions of one book simply because I'm a collector and I've followed this author since I met her in a Black Voices chatroom before she even had a book...I even have the first manuscript of her book, now she makes millions. To me, it's about being supportive and realizing that even though a lot of books may need work...may not be as good as they can be, it's still a book and I still plan to support any AA Author I get wind of...as my now small budget allows. My only confusion is figuring out how I'm going to read them all or in what order. <grin>
bookish, your second paragraph in the post above this one also hit home for me...thanks for understanding. I go through this discussion with my husband at least once a month. He wants my passion to equal dollars.
-Tee |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 08, 2003 - 01:45 pm: |
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Hello people,
As a self-published author soon to have a review of my book posted by AALBC, I would certainly agree with many of your comments on the subject being discussed. I said a while back that if you have to teach a person how to construct and punctuate a sentence and how to use proper grammar, and how to avoid being redundant, then there is some question in my mind as to whether such an individual should be writing a book. There ought to be an element of talent in the equasion. Just because a person wants to write a book, doesn't that mean he or she can.
I have also caused raised eyebrows among friends and strangers alike when I say that I write for the love of my craft. I consider myself lucky enough to have found something that I would do whether I get paid for it or not.
And I, too, find myself editing things that I read, especially - and this may sound morbid - the funeral obituaries that black folks write for their dearly departed loved ones. An obituary is the last chance to say something good about a dead person, and it should at least be written well. LOL
I have also contended that I feel confident enough to edit my own writing. I still think I can but, Lord knows, EVERYBODY needs a good PROOFREADER!
Cynique |
idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 12:57 am: |
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Cynique and others:
Good grammar does not equate to good writing, but it doesn't hurt. If a person doesn't know how to construct a simple, compound, or complex compound sentence then someone needs to teach him/her. Their igorance only means that for whatever reasons they don't have those skills; it doesn't mean that they shouldn't write a book! It's just something that they need to work on.
We're would we be without our slave narratives? Are we serious?
Craft is character development, style, structure, symbolism, etc.... Possessing good grammar and punctuation skills does not endow one with the aforementioned.
What would Ellison's Invisible Man be without the Spirituals and Blues motifs?
Where am i going with this?
Everbody needs a good proofreader, but I think we need to encourage writers/prospective writers to invest in a proofreader and a grammar and punctuation book--not question whether they should or should not write a book.
Are we equating talent and good ol' story tell'n wit "proper" grammar and punctuation.
Punctuation and Grammar can be taught--talent can not!
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idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 01:02 am: |
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Cynique and others:
Good grammar does not equate to good writing, but it doesn't hurt. If a person doesn't know how to construct a simple, compound, or complex compound sentence then someone needs to teach him/her. Their igorance only means that for whatever reasons they don't have those skills; it doesn't mean that they shouldn't write a book! It's just something that they need to work on.
Where would we be without our slave narratives? Are we serious?
Craft is character development, style, structure, symbolism, etc.... Possessing good grammar and punctuation skills does not endow one with the aforementioned.
What would Ellison's Invisible Man be without the Spirituals and Blues motifs?
Where am i going with this?
Everbody needs a good proofreader, but I think we need to encourage writers/prospective writers to invest in a proofreader and a grammar and punctuation book--not question whether they should or should not write a book.
Are we equating talent and good ol' story tell'n wit "proper" grammar and punctuation.
Punctuation and Grammar can be taught--talent can not!
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idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 01:04 am: |
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Jus a lil proofreading was necessary...I'm sure there are more mistakes...
But read the message! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 09:38 am: |
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Dear Idisagree.
You're right. Sometimes I get carried away because these days writing a book, like having a baby, has become a fad. Everybody wants to do it. And, yes, a person can be taught to write, but I think creativity is a natural talent. I guess the problem arises when a a person doesn't realize that writing a book is more than a notion. Anybody can write a book, but can anybody write a good book? BTW, I speak from my own personal experience when I say everybody needs a proof reader. |
bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 02:27 pm: |
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I wanted to agree first off with Tee C. saying, "I am OK differing with you guys." I'm enjoying the conversation.
I suspected Tee C. has a more intimate relationship with the authors than I do, since she's sending back edited copies. I don't think many 'consumers' do that, although maybe we should start writing the editors about it. ;)
Cynique & Tee C., I'm SO glad to hear others speak up about their passions as separate from their dollars. We can see where the state of literature is heading when it becomes all about money. What is your life without your passion? (I shudder.) Also, I don't believe most writers would ever become good if they gave up on it because they weren't earning money right away.
The points about proofreading and editing, for me, go back to what we said about needing our own presses and publishing houses, or at least more African Americans in the industry.
Just because a published product is a mess doesn't mean it was the author's fault (though they are supposed to proofread galleys themselves). Many people handle a book: author, editors, proofreaders, typesetters, etc.
If we had more African Americans working in publishing with loving attention to detail, we could make sure our work is published with more care. That means the quality of the stories as well as the quality of the books as products.
Also, the ability to write well is different than the ability to have a good idea. Writing well is absolutely a part of the craft of writing. You still need a team of editors and other publishing professionals to make sure your work is presented well, because no one is perfect, but claiming that a writer doesn't need to know how to spell or punctuate is a bit ridiculous. Every human being has their stories to tell, but everyone is not a writer. I may be able to hum but that doesn't make me a musician.
That's exactly why slave narratives are so remarkable. Slaves were forbidden to learn to read and write and yet we know many did. To have a surviving slave narrative or a fictional story written by a slave is a truly miraculous thing.
Oral narratives are invaluable as well but not as pieces of writing.
Finally, I don't think anyone here was talking about dialectical issues, were they? If you've read the authors that were mentioned, Zora Neale Hurston, Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, etc. you know they each make great use of authentic vernacular speech and song. |
Tee C. Royal
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 03:51 pm: |
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I'll be brief for once...VERY WELL SAID bookish!
-Tee |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 09, 2003 - 06:37 pm: |
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I concur!
Cynique |
idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 02:31 am: |
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Cynique and others,
I agree with you. People need to improve their writing. Alot of the black fiction published today is fluff. Yet, most americans, let alone black folk, read below the tenth grade level. On BET this evening there was a program concerning literacy, suggesting that we need to encourage our soldiers, men and women, leaders and convicts, to invest in the education of our children.
Now, the connection between slave narratives and grammar and punctuation is not limited to utilizing the black vernacular(i'll get back to this shortly). I'm questioning how we think about what it means to "write well." I reiterate, for the last time i hope, mastery of grammar, punctuation, sentence variety, word usage, etc... is essential for good writing. I felt that your tone was a bit abrasive, as i do bookish's. And i thought, that you (Cynique) was equating good writing with proper grammar and punctuation usage. I'm clear now. I was wrong. Thank you!
Now, lets talk about the black vernacular, slave narratives, orality, etc..
I wasn't clear! I know! Irresponsibly, I left it up to the readers to determine why i introduced slave narratives(SN). The SN is remarkable not only because it demonstrates slaves' resilience and desire to inform the North and the World about slavery as a strategy to eradicate it, but also, and more importantly for this conversation, because it demonstrates' their ability to construct a story, to keep the reader engaged, to communicate their intellect without command of "education," their lyricly metaphorical prose, etc..
Here's my point:
In other words, through engaging the slave narratives we can identify the fictive elements of the African American idiom. This is what Ellison talked about, Murray and along list of black writers. The writers that you, Bookish, identifed use the black vernacular because they internalized and understood that the vernacular was not just about using the language of uneducated people for purposes of character authenticity, it was about siphoning the style and character of the speech, language, whatever you want to call it, and integrating it into world history as the literary contribution of black americans.
I know the discussion wasn't about black dialect, not dialectical(thats a Hegalian term). I'm engaging and you through introducing other issues that are discursively interlaced with the questions of literacy, black fiction, black history, contemporary black publishing, and "good writing." Can we all just get along? Is this not a discussion? Is it necessary to get in to what who has read what? Are you Thelonious Ellison? OK...i'm playing btw! Is it really all that deep? Are we reading and engaging eachother or attacking and policing eachother, colonizing, and coercing?
Anyway, these writers mastered "proper grammar," yet they returned, and many continue to return to the foundation, Blues(Ellison, G. Jones), Spirituals and spirtuality(Ellison,Morrison, Forrest, Kenan), Jazz(T.Morrison), folk tales(Whitehead, Morrison,Ellison), Vodun and african mythology(Rhodes, Flowers, Wideman), and now hip hop, in order to engage the Euro-American tradition with the hybrid African American idiom. The list goes on. I've read a little sumthin, sumthin...i'm not Thumper nor espouse to be an expert, but if you (Bookish) conflate good grammar with good writing and you don't see the reasoning of using the black vernacular as an artform then you're missing much from the books that you've enlisted.
ONE |
idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 02:44 am: |
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Whoa this is crazy! You guys got me editing this stuff...LMAO! I need to write less and get some reading done!
ONE
Cynique and others,
I agree with you. People need to improve their writing. Alot of the black fiction published today is fluff. Yet, most americans, let alone black folk, read below the tenth grade level. On BET this evening there was a program concerning literacy, suggesting that we need to encourage our soldiers, men and women, leaders and convicts, to invest in the education of our children.
Now, the connection between slave narratives and grammar and punctuation is not limited to utilizing the black vernacular(i'll get back to this shortly). I'm questioning how we think about what it means to "write well." I reiterate, for the last time i hope, mastery of grammar, punctuation, sentence variety, word usage, etc... is essential for good writing. I felt that your tone was a bit abrasive, as i do bookish's. And i thought, that you (Cynique) was equating good writing with proper grammar and punctuation usage. I'm clear now. I was wrong. Thank you!
Now, lets talk about the black vernacular, slave narratives, orality, etc..
I wasn't clear! I know! Irresponsibly, I left it up to the readers to determine why i introduced slave narratives(SN). The SN is remarkable not only because it demonstrates slaves' resilience and desire to inform the North and the World about slavery as a strategy to eradicate it, but also, and more importantly for this conversation, because it demonstrates' their ability to construct a story, to keep the reader engaged, to communicate their intellect without command of "education," their lyricly metaphorical prose, etc..
Here's my point:
In other words, through engaging the slave narratives we can identify the fictive elements of the African American idiom. This is what Ellison talked about, Murray and along list of black writers. The writers that you, Bookish, identifed use the black vernacular because they internalized and understood that the vernacular was not just about using the language of uneducated people for purposes of character authenticity, it was about siphoning the style and character of the speech, language, whatever you want to call it, and integrating it into world history as the literary contribution of black americans.
I know the discussion wasn't about black dialect, not dialectical(thats a Hegalian term). I'm engaging and you through introducing other issues that are discursively interlaced with the questions of literacy, black fiction, black history, contemporary black publishing, and "good writing." Can we all just get along? Is this not a discussion? Is it necessary to get in to what who has read what? Are you Thelonious Ellison? OK...i'm playing btw! Is it really all that deep? Are we reading and engaging eachother or attacking and policing eachother, colonizing, and coercing?
Anyway, these writers mastered "proper grammar," yet they returned, and many continue to return to the foundation, Blues(Ellison, G. Jones), Spirituals and spirtuality(Ellison,Morrison, Forrest, Kenan), Jazz(T.Morrison), folk tales(Whitehead, Morrison,Ellison), Vodun and african mythology(Rhodes, Flowers, Wideman), and now hip hop, in order to engage the Euro-American tradition with the hybrid African American idiom. The list goes on. I've read a little sumthin, sumthin...i'm not Thumper nor espouse to be an expert, but if you (Bookish) conflate good grammar with good writing and you don't see the reasoning of using the black vernacular as an art form then you're missing much from the books that you've listed.
ONE |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 11:01 am: |
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Hello "Idisagree":
Your points are well taken. I don't think I and the others have to be at odds with you in order to embrace our own opinions. The subject is one that lends itself to many points of view. It's really all about language being fluid and dynamic. Then, there's the question of Standard English. To me, it's a survival tool. People should have a mastery of the language spoken by their "oppressors." (Rappers and athletes are the exception. LOL)
Cynique |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 10, 2003 - 09:06 pm: |
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Hello All,
I agree with Idisagree!! Idisagree stated the point I was trying, only better. The use of the black vernacular...excellent subject! I had a discussion with my mother not too long ago about that very thing. Me, personally, I embrace it like a life line! Many AA don't, they see shame and disgust in it. I wonder why.
bookish: I don't believe having more AA publishing houses and such is necessarily the answer. What is needed is for many of our authors to read good books and learn their craft, editors who expertly know the language and is smart enough and sensitive enough to allow the author's book to become stronger, tighter, and unique and not become subjected to formulas, impressions and the market. For instance, below Tee and I are discussing the novel Rising by Darnella Ford. I have not read the self-published edition, only the currently available edition. The ending for the latest edition is terrible. Now, if like Tee indicated, Ford's editor had something to do with the change, the editor did the book a great disservice. But when its all said and done, it's the author's name that is on the cover and not the editor's. Would a change of ending had happened with an AA editor? It most certainly could. Even in that case, as unfair as it is, the buck still has to stop with the author. |
bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:12 am: |
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"idisagree", no it is not that serious. Why do you post as if we're arguing when we aren't? <shrugs>
I am saying good grammar is one part of good writing. So is knowing how to hold a pen or a pencil or how to type. These are two of the aspects that distinguish writing from other activities. You wrote, "I reiterate, for the last time i hope, mastery of grammar, punctuation, sentence variety, word usage, etc... is essential for good writing." So, what is the problem? We all seem to be in agreement.
Education hasn't been a focus of this topic. We discussed the skills (and the talent), not where or how authors acquire them.
Re: vernacular and dialect
I don't see where we have any disagreements about this either. You're making some outrageous inferences for no apparent reason. (Also, I did not tell you what to read. LOL You can double check for yourself.)
Re: good stories vs. good writing
You can reread what I wrote before if you like. I don't have anything else to add.
As far as being "aggressive" goes... I can only say, so what? That isn't the tone in which I wrote, but if that's how you read it, I don't mind.
I'm not one of those people who pads direct statements with "I think" and "maybe" to soften it for other people or seem unsure of myself. I know what I know and have my own opinions. I also reserve the right to be aggressive, for real, whenever necessary and also whenever I just feel like being aggressive. Deal with it. LOL If you're feeling defensive, that's going to have be dealt with as a personal problem.
I agree with Cynique, except I see no exceptions. You have to know the rules before you break them. The best rappers with the tightest rhymes are articulate with a broad vocabulary. Like other songwriters and poets, they delight in playing with words and linking cultural references in clever ways.
Everyone else needs to know proper grammar and how to use it, including athletes. I think all of us use different dialects or slang when it's appropriate. When it's not, you need to be able to speak English correctly, even if you choose not to, most of the time. You sure as h--- need to be able to write it. Black people in this country have enough challenges without being functionally illiterate.
Thumper, my idea was to have African Americans with skills and talent in the publishing business, not just random folks who happen to be AA. That was quite clear in my posts above. So, as far as I can see, we agree, too. I do believe it will make a difference having skilled *AA* people because our heritage and our current culture continue to be devalued. That's why we're seeing so much nonsense published "for us" today. Why wait and hope for "white" or other editors to become more sensitive? Lord knows, enough African Americans adore books. We ought to represented in the industry.
More particularly, I agree with you that reading good books makes the difference in acquiring those skills. People who constantly read good books improve their reading level (and their knowledge of grammar, and sentence and story construction). Which comes back around to what "idisagree" mentioned about the national reading level. Most americans don't read. Most americans are ignorant. Direct correlation there. It's disgraceful. However, I would be very surprised if AA people as a group, didn't have a reading level higher than the national average. Whether we do or not, continuing to publish or read substandard popular fiction certainly isn't going to improve things much. There's no need to dumb down the culture to cater to a low standard. |
bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 12:41 am: |
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Thumper, some people see shame in using the vernacular because it was born out of ignorance. Forced ignorance, at that.
Regardless, it isn't natural to all African Americans today to use it all the time. (For some, it's unnatural to use it any of the time.) |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 02:33 am: |
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Hi bookish (love that screen name)
The exchange going on here is an interesting example of how words written instead of words spoken can be interpreted. What I meant in my last post was that Rappers and pro-athletes can get away without using proper English because their talent, not how they talk, is what turns them into millionaires. Money talks - so to speak... |
bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 11, 2003 - 05:09 am: |
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Hi! Thanks.
I just wasn't sure whether you meant they don't have to *know* it or they don't have to *use* it... so I went ahead and distinguished myself. LOL
Yes, I know they usually do get away with it, not that all AA athletes speak the same way. Still, I don't think *most* athletes are respected beyond their athletic ability. In fact, they're stereotyped as being dumb. They can make a lot of money, but who knows if they wouldn't do even better if they had better communication skills? They're sort of at the mercy of schools, coaches, agents, lawyers. It pays to be able to read the fine print yourself and to be taken seriously. Michael Jordan had a huge endorsement career as well. Some athletes get into acting... the best get books deals later (and notice the reliance on ghostwriters and co-authors). There's more to even making money than the athletic ability. They still need to be able to communicate clearly to all different kinds of people.
Consider how much fun people poke at Mike Tyson because of the way he speaks. They are not laughing with him. |
idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 01:22 am: |
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Bookish,
Perhaps we agree in your mind, but your posts state different and contesting perspectives than mine.
You state:
"Also, the ability to write well is different than the ability to have a good idea. Writing well is absolutely a part of the craft of writing." I had never addressed nor compared good writing with a good idea. Cynique suggested that I did.
"but claiming that a writer doesn't need to know how to spell or punctuate is a bit ridiculous."
I never claimed that a writer didn't need a proofreader. Perhaps your comment was not directed towards me.
"Every human being has their stories to tell, but everyone is not a writer."
You never, and perhaps I need to reread your previous posts, identified what it meant to be a good writer. You only addressed the necessity of having good grammar skills. My initial post to Cynique argued that good grammar and punctuation did not equate to good writing. I incorrectly thought that was her argument. She and I cleared that up. Yet, your post did not address these points that I had made with Cynique.
"Finally, I don't think anyone here was talking about dialectical issues, were they? If you've read the authors that were mentioned, Zora Neale Hurston, Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, etc. you know they each make great use of authentic vernacular speech and song."
My point is very different from this statement, Bookish. I wasn’t talking about the legitimacy of using the black vernacular for authenticity reasons.
Let me put my recent posts in context! I was suggesting that if many of us were "illiterate," then there would be a great possibility that many of us lack good grammar and punctuation skills. Cynique's posted:
"I said a while back that if you have to teach a person how to construct and punctuate a sentence and how to use proper grammar, and how to avoid being redundant, then there is some question in my mind as to whether such an individual should be writing a book."
Here are my two points:
1.This statement seemed elist and rigid, since it emphatically stated that people who didn't use proper grammar "should" not write a book.
I addressed her comments by identifying what i thought it took to be a good writer, since her comments suggested that a person without mastery of grammar and punctuation was not a good writer, and i argued that a good writer needed other qualities besides good grammar, such as storytelling and talent, arguing that grammar and punctuation could always be taught, but talent could not. Now this point is essential because if you have a population of "illiterate people," where some may have talent, then it is imperative not to state that they shouldn't write a book because they have poor grammar. I argued that these people should be helped and mentored.
2.I was also making a related point, which your post does not address (If you agree or not wasn't the point.)
I was arguing that the African American idiom/cultural contribution was embedded in our rural culture and now our rural/urban culture, which is dialectically derivative from our language. In other words, if we dissuade people from black vernacular we may lose some of the elements of our culture, which is why I brought up education even though you did not. I was suggesting, as you’ve stated most recently, that we remain bilingual and that those who are monolingual should learn “proper” grammar.
You're statement, however, just says that the black vernacular is used by the black canon—Morrison and et al. This is very different from stating that the substance of the black idiom, if there is such of thing, is embedded in our language. I was engaging you and broadening the conversation.
By the way, when you ask a question like,
"Finally, I don't think anyone here was talking about dialectical issues, were they?"
I believe that you are suggesting that one cannot or should not bring something up since you were not talking about the subject. If anyone is defensive it is YOU.
You also sound defensive by emphasizing your right to be aggressive and to use absolute statements if you want to, which I never questioned.
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idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 02:19 am: |
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Bookish,
Let me address this comment.
"Thumper, some people see shame in using the vernacular because it was born out of ignorance. Forced ignorance, at that."
How does one interpret this statement?
Are you stating that the black vernacular was created out of the ignorance of speaking "proper" english? And how does one interpret the word "ignorance"? Denotatively (dictionary) or conotatively (slang)? Ignorance as in not knowking? Are you stating that standard english is right and the black vernacular is wrong? Or could it be that the value (right/wrong) is determined by who is control of the social structure?
"Everyone else needs to know proper grammar and how to use it, including athletes. I think all of us use different dialects or slang when it's appropriate. When it's not, you need to be able to speak English correctly, even if you choose not to, most of the time. You sure as h--- need to be able to write it. Black people in this country have enough challenges without being functionally illiterate."
I would argue that some of us reject the black vernacular because we accept that standard english is the right or "proper" way to speak. I disagree, as the name states, because i believe that standard english, and i know i'm answering my own questions, is only proper because the British and now the US have standardized a dialect, which we call standard American English. Bookish, you don't blatantly reject "slang" but you do seem to accept standard American english as "proper" and "correct"; you seem to accept the term "illiterate."
I believe that you have misunderstood my points, because we differ on the basics.
Black people have been so consumed with being accepted and "intelligent" that some of us condescendingly look at brothers and sisters that don't know the masters' language, accepting, essentially, that white is right(i'm not saying that you do this, btw). Standard english, i believe, is a survival requirement. I believe being fluent in standard english is not necessary because it is "proper," but because we need to know what the masters know, as Frederick DOuglas understood, to survive and perhaps escape.
For example, for some of us the black vernacular is standard english and if you don't know the black vernacular then you are illiterate. And if you are "illiterate" in this sense then you don't have access to what knowing the black vernacular has to offer. The point is that it is about who has control over language, and since those who speak the black vernacular don't have control, they need "standard english" in order to improve their life chances. Whoever is in control over language determines what is "proper," "correct," "illiterate,"etc....
"Regardless, it isn't natural to all African Americans today to use it all the time. (For some, it's unnatural to use it any of the time.)"
You are correct. "Education" and migration have changed the cadence and syntax of our speech. Yet again, assuming that "education" was proper has facilitated the "erasure," no pun intended, of the black vernacular.
I think that the black vernacular is valuable)(i'm not stating that is stagnant.)
I attempted to argue that there are cultural elements within the black vernacular that has been exposed in blues, jazz, spirituals, and now hip hop. |
bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 06:30 am: |
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"idisagree", yes, you do need to reread this whole thread more carefully.
re: black vernacular and my brief response to Thumper
Clearly, you know exactly what I mean when I say it was born out of ignorance. People from African countries did not know how to speak English, were not taught properly, and were forbidden to learn to write or read it. Those are facts. Probably, we all know this, including Thumper, but he said he didn't know why some find it shameful.
I'm not interested in discussing the value of vernacular speech, or its evolution or use today because it's a waste of time. Every black person knows the value of it (except, I suppose, those Thumper was referring to, who find it shameful.) If that had been the topic of this thread at the start, I would have skipped over it.
If you want to find someone to argue with you, I suggest you bring it up on a board that is not set up for African Americans. White people will argue with you about the value of black vernacular speech until kingdom's come. You can be pro, they can be con. Here, there is no one to argue with you. (I'm not going to anyway.)
I'll reiterate, since you're not a careful reader, I don't care whether you find me aggressive or not. Nor do I care, and I doubt this surprises you, whether you find me defensive or not. LOL
As for your insulting me, replying to my posts without reading them carefully, and presuming to know what I believe or value without asking, I can only tell you to grow up and ignore you in the future.
Btw, I read more than I post and I'm confident you also post under another username in the other threads. Again, I say: grow up. |
idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 11:13 am: |
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Bookish,
I guess you don't enjoy debate, only whether or not a person is directly and solely addressing what you want addressed. I'm don't want an argument, just a discussion, where we can broaden a topic and engage eachother. I did read your post, but i also questioned your word usuage, and i sought a response.
And then i placed your post to thumper within the larger discussion of grammar and punctuation and its relationship between publishing and the qualitiy of black writers and writing.
I've never insulted you nor do i know whats in your mind, which is why i do use words like "perhaps," "suggest,"etc... in order to be careful not to make absolute statements like you.
I apologize if you feel i've insulted you.
Correspondingly, I don't think you've either appreciated or carefully read my posts, if that was the case then our dialogue would have transpired as mine and Cynique's have. You on the other hand, have not responded to my inqueries nor the points that i elaborated on. I have responded to yours, however. I've engaged your ideas, but you haven't done the same. You have only told us what you haven't said. And more recently, you have included irrelevant and incorrect information.
My identity: Irrelevent
Evolution of the vernacular: incorrect
Insulting you: incorrect
Arguing with white people about the value of the black vernacular:irrelevant and incorrect
When you get some time and patience, you should reread our posts and perhaps you'll get it, because you haven't. You were on the defensive from the our initial engagement. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 11:55 am: |
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Hello Everyone,
Everyone, altogether, let's inhale and slow exhale, this is just a friendly discussion with a disagreement. There's no need to get personal. And believe it or not, it's OK to disaagree without being insulting. *smile*
Now, Bookish, you know I love you, but I got to cut you. *big smile* In your last post, and I really hate to do this, you wrote:
"Clearly, you know exactly what I mean when I say it was born out of ignorance. People from African countries did not know how to speak English, were not taught properly, and were forbidden to learn to write or read it. Those are facts. Probably, we all know this, including Thumper, but he said he didn't know why some find it shameful."
It's best not to write what you believe I know and what I don't. It just so happen that I don't know any such thing. I disagree wholeheartedly that the black vernacular was born out of ignorance. You are correct, the slaves came here not knowing the language and had to be taught. Contrary to popular belief, not all white folks, then nor now, speak or write PROPER English. The slaves could only learn the language that surrounded them, especially the language the slave owners spoke. Not all slave holders were Thomas Jefferson who knew the King's English. The fact of the matter is that Many slaveholders were as illiterate as their slaves. I know that it is always ASSUMED that white folks were literate. It's a lie. And if you don't believe me, tune into the Grand Ole Opry, then get back with me.
I'm not going to discuss the value or non-value of the black vernacular with you. I respect your position. I will say that I believe that we, AA, need to discuss the usefulness of the black vernacular. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 12:05 pm: |
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Hello All,
I forgot to put in the how I disagreed with Bookish comment.
The slaves, quite cleverly, injected hidden meanings and double entrendes in the English language allowing them to communicate with each other in front of the slave masters without getting in trouble. I think this has been well established in the folklores, Negro spirituals, et al. No, I don't find any ignorance at all, to be able to take a foreign language and twist and turn it the way the slaves did speaks of high intelligence.
Now, I'm done. Sorry for the double posts. |
idisagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 01:19 pm: |
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Thumper and others,
I was definitely disagreeing with Bookish, emphatically even, but i never sought to disrespect nor insult Bookish, never.
I'm waving the White Flag, reluctantly!
Thumper: I was trying to make the same point that you have concerning the genius of the slaves. The layered character of the black vernacular is literary in my opinion. I questioned Bookish's usage of "ignorance," because i felt that black americans accept "proper" english as right or correct, without necessarily considering or thinking about language as a colonial tool. I believe that if we accept and use these terms without evaluation we may miss the intellect of our ancestors and depreciate the literary elements of the black vernacular. This acceptance normalizes and affirms the black vernacular as improper, illiterate, and those who use it as ignorant, uneducated, stupid. I wanted Bookish and who ever read my posts to address and engage these points.
Also, few americans speak standard english, as you've said Thumper. Standard english and regional accents are markers of race, class, and nationality another point I was trying to suggest. Faulkner's character's are representative of your point. So is Jerry Springer's program.
Similar examples:
Some Haitians are debased by their own when they speak creole, not French. Jamaicans Patua and not Standard Kings'English. Indians that speak their regional and ethnic language and not Hindi. Language and its standardization is about power relations. My questions and ideas stem from this framework! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 03:31 pm: |
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Hello People,
This stimulating, intellectual exchange was not a win/lose situation. Everybody made valid points. I think if this had been a round-table discussion in a live setting, there would have been less misunderstanding on everyone's part.
Language does evolve and 100 years from now English in America may be an conglomeration of of "good" and "bad" grammar spoken by a moocha-colored population. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 12, 2003 - 07:46 pm: |
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Hello everyone,
Idisagree: I agree with you! *smile* I was feeling you. I think you made your point better than I did. So, we're cool. **hug**
Oddly enough, I agree with Cynique, valid points were made all around. It's not often that we have these types of debates. We should have them more often. *big smile* |
Iagree
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 13, 2003 - 10:08 pm: |
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I agree with Cynique as well. Well, not all of her comment...LMAO! |
bookish
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, January 14, 2003 - 07:23 am: |
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I still don't see any major disagreements in this conversation. I see one poster trying to start something and failing.
Thumper, you knew as well as I did what I wrote before I posted it. Otherwise, I'm sure it would have taken a few days for the shock to wear off before you started arguing with me about it. LOL
I said slaves were not taught English properly. The dialect was born out of ignorance. Nothing about that statement denies that some white people around were ignorant. (Btw, I'm not British so the Queen's English isn't my standard of proper English. That's like a foreign language in and of itself.) However, being screamed at, mocked, and ordered around does not allow for proper learning of any locally spoken dialect, even on its own terms.
Also, you're simply wrong about most slaveholders being ignorant and uneducated. They had a seperate caste and hatred for poor, uneducated white people. They called them poor white trash and "crackers". They lived in shacks and shanties themselves and were often the hired bosses put in charge of crews of slaves by the owners. They got to crack the whip as a fringe benefit of being a wage worker instead of a property owner. These poor whites developed a particularly vehement hatred for black people as that was the only way they could feel better than someone. Other white people had open contempt for them.
Unfortunately, Cynique, I don't think this particular internet conversation would have gone better face to face. Some people are threatened by others' intelligence. They don't realize they can be intelligent too without mocking and accusing. It's a maturity and self-esteem issue. Unfortunately, people act this way offline as well.
I think it's too bad we were led off on this tangent. Obviously, some of you are interested in it, but personally, I was *more* interested in the issue of supporting current popular fiction vs. trying to get some better material published on a regular basis.
Peace, book lovers. |
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