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Bayou Lights
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 01:01 am: | 
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Folks--
(Hope this post finds you all well)
Last week I finished reading "The Samurai's Daughter" by Sujata Massey. Ms. Massey writes a mystery series about a Japanese-American antiques dealer. Most of the novels have been set in Tokyo but with her last two she brought the character back to the US. (One in DC, another in San Francisco)
Samurai was based largely in San Francisco, a fairly cosmopolitan city, yet there was not a single AA character in the entire book. Not one, not on the street, in a store, etc... It threw me off so thoroughly that it kept me from fully engaging in the story. The books are lightweight, quick-reads so I never expect more than a little diversion from the tasks at hand, but for some reason. . .
My question, have you ever been thrown out of a story because of a similar reading experience? On the other hand, it bothers me not one bit if I read an AA novel made up entirely of AA characters. Can't explain the double standard or why it seemed to stick out so much with this particular book.
I'm in the middle of "Poachers" (short stories) by Tom Franklin and I've yet to encounter an AA character but it has not distracted from the reading experience at all. In "Poachers" it feels true to the situation, locale and characters (maybe I answered my own question, huh) but once in awhile the absence of color/variety distracts from a book and keeps it from being fully realized.
Any agreements, disagreements, thoughts?
Bayou |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 12:53 pm: |
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I know ahead of time that there aren't going to be any black characters in a Mary Higgins Clark novel, so I am able to appreciate it for its intrinsic value as a well-crafted mystery of the "woman-in-peril" genre. In other cases, I sometimes get the impression that a black character is inserted into the plot as a token gesture, for political correctness. That's patronizing. I'm at the point now where all I require of a book is that it be interesting and well-written. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 01:50 pm: |
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Bayou, I identify with your sense of "numbness" 100%. I often feel that way reading certain books...and especially watching t.v. shows and movies.
Ever notice how on a soap opera--only 1 black person lives in the entire town? Or 2.
OFCOURSE...here's an interesting side note.
When I was young, I became engrossed in AA literature.
What used to irritate and insult me to no end was how dark brownskinned women were never EVER portrayed as being "attractive, of child-bearing age" in the stories. Here you had all these Black folk and black families, etc....but all the women characters were written as though the cotton club managers had dictated the presses. In other words, the novels often perpetrated the fantasy that the whole black race had come out of Lena Horne or something. There are NO descriptions of Lauryn Hill, Alek Wek, Cicely Tyson or any other women who actually look like the African ancestral women of Black Americans. Only "Mammy" existed, even in AA lit, for those of us who were Africoid.
ALSO...in school, when I would bring this up...the other blacks had hardly noticed it (or denied it--for it was "all in my head"--naturally, the light girls became annoyed,because the fantasy made them feel "legitimate and superior") and it seemed to be quite natural to them that a BLACK society existed without REAL black women in it.
I found that truly wounding. And was very happy when I went back to Africa and encountered a group of Africans complaining violently about the film "SHAFT IN AFRICA" (blacks in Senegal threw bottles at the screen!!)...because here was dark black Richard Roundtree in a film inwhich all of our African mothers were cast as very lightskinned women (none of whom looked African) and removed from a Harlem moviehouse culture...and set in Africa...became glaringly noticable. AGAIN--African American viewers hardly noticed it and didn't find the "racial evil" in it. They went along with the idea that men who look like Richard Roundtree could exist--but that the woman that it takes to produce them--EVEN IN AFRICA--could be conveniently invisible.
This is why, as a teen, I so loved White cinema and could not stomach many films made by Black Americans.
Now that we can rent old movies on video--I am quite grateful that WHITE MALE filmmakers used to consistently cast Cicely Tyson in film/t.v. movies...as Godfrey Cambridge said--"it was revolutionary when Cicely became a star, because a taboo amongst black folk was broken." (That was in 1974! when he said that--not even 30 years ago!!)
So relate that to your original statement and you'll notice that we all take some part in this "ommitting" of people who are invisible to us.
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Bayou Lights
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 02:29 pm: |
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Thanks, ladies for responding. After re-reading the post I realized that it truly comes down to whether or not the story is good enough to make you forget the other elements. If I'm truly engrossed in a novel I don't look for the inclusion or absence of characters because my involvement is so complete. Maybe Ms. Massey just left me cold on this one.
Kola, you make an interesting point on how this translates to movies. And, like with the books, I notice it more when the film itself is not working for me.
PS: Saw "Identity" as my weekend movie, plan to see "Better Luck Tomorrow" this evening don't expect an AA character in either but knowing the story ahead of time that doesn't seem odd to me. If it's organic to the story then I can flow with it.
Peace |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 07:29 pm: |
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Hello Bayou Lights,
I noticed our absence in contemporary literature years ago. It wasn't until I started reading AA literature that our absence in contemporary literature became glaringly obvious. Those rare books that did have an AA character (in a supporting role of course) I found didn't know anything about us. I would rather us be invisible than misrepresented. |
Bayou Lights
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, April 27, 2003 - 08:31 pm: |
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Thumper--
Hey you, sometimes I feel the same thing when male authors write female characters -- sometimes it just doesn't ring true and then I'm aware of it all the way through the story.
Do you ever feel that way when a female novelist tackles a male character? I thought Diane McKinney-Whetstone tackled the male character very well, same with Marita Golden (just off the top of my head), and Tramble in The Dying Ground, but once in awhile I come across a book and the male character reads more like a fantasy and I don't think that's intentional on the writers part. I felt that way about the latest Valerie Wilson Wesley stand-alone novel, not the Tamara Hayle books but I'm blanking on the name.
Bayou |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 10:34 am: |
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Bayou:
For that reason I won't read a lot of fiction written by whites. In fact, I'd rather they didn't have any AA characters. They never do them right.
Kola: Maybe you should not be so quick to give those white filmakers credit until you go back and talk to them and ask them why they put the freeze on Cicely when she started refusing to do demeaning roles and demanding better ones. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 11:23 am: |
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Hi Chris,
**I've been so sad every since you wrote that you're not going to try to write the novel you've been working on all your life. I wish you could elaborate on that. Maybe you should let me look at it.
Also...Regarding Bayou's great topic and how that resonates even in AA works--I was so sad when Godfrey Cambridge wrote about the racism that Cicely Tyson and other darker YOUNG actresses encountered with BLACK filmmakers. He said that White filmmakers were the ones who thought Cicely was "beautiful" and began pushing her into the limelight--they cast her "The V.I.P.'s", "Sounder", "Miss Jane Pittman", "A Woman Called Moses"....she got to be attractive (of childbearing age) with a love interest in those roles. IT WAS..as he said...revolutionary.
Actress Angela Bassett expressed similar complaints fighting for leading lady roles with "AA directors" on The Charlie Rose SHow. But our community has such a "Shame" and "Embarrassment", more often "DENIAL" regarding this issue...that nobody dare speak of it or bring up the fact that it's still going on. Both Spike Lee and John Singleton have publicly admitted that when casting the attractive, female lead--they almost always expect her to be "lightskinned" and pay far less attention to the darker girls auditioning (no matter how beautiful they are)--I thought they were quite brave to admitt that--and both try to consciously include the "Africoid".
For those of us who are darker women, we experience EXACTLY what BAYOU LIGHTS was speaking of. We sit in the theature (or read the book) waiting for someone who looks like us to be included--very often, the book or film come to an end and we leave INVISIBLE. "Lightskinned black MEN" have also told me about going through this when viewing AA art. They are often ommitted from black life--but not as frequently. And making it more shocking is the statistical fact that the darkskinned females are the largest part of the black population--outnumbering everybody. But mysteriously ommitted in films, music videos etc.--except, as Godfrey Cambridge said, "To play the grandmother..the evil witch or prostitute...or the little girl role."
In other words, they are not PROMOTED to the general population as being VIABLE....during "childbearing age". Do you see what I'm getting at? Like Bayou's first post--this is yet another way to someday make ALL OF US invisible. Josephine Baker's children have written a book where-in they said she left America specifically because the Black man casting a broadway play felt she was "too dark" for the leading lady role. She was too slim and sexy to play the Mammy parts. She left for Paris righ after being told she was too dark--and for many years, she wouldn't even date a black man. This is not the story that WE African Americans have traditionally told about Baker's departure.
This is not natural for black people to think this way...if it were natural, then the continent of Africa would be a great deal "lighter/brighter" than it is. BAYOU touched on a larger subject...that this comes from being exposed for hundred of years to the type of books and images BAYOU LIGHTS was talking about. It passes into us ourselves after so long.
In fact, these images are now pervading Africa itself.
So this was a very important topic BAYOU raised regarding the arts and how they dictate who is included...and who is "disenfranchised".
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 11:53 am: |
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I still contend that women who wear glasses are among the most discriminated people in the world. A leading lady will never be someone who wears glasses. The female character wearing glasses will always be a nerd or someone who if she takes off her glasses is suddenly beautiful. I wear glasses and this is my observation. So all of this mawkish bellyaching about who is neglected and passed over in the media is purely subjective (and is fueled partly by self-absorbtion.) I'm sure fat women and ugly white women and actresses over age 40 feel discriminated against, too. Boo-Hoo. Life is a bitch. I'm sure these remarks will inspire a long redundant response. But be advised that this is my final opinion on the subject.
In response to another post, I think women do a much better job of portraying men than men do portraying women. For obvious reason. Men don't understand women. But women got men down pat! LOL |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 12:04 pm: |
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You know Cynique. It's typical that a lightskinned, yellow woman like yourself would DISMISS the observations and PAIN of darker women like you just did.
And you're right--if we were enundated with images of beautiful women wearing GLASSES--then they would become a world standard...if we were constantly shown Fat Women...then they would be a beauty standard. You PROVE my point.
and yes, as you said, Life is a bitch. And I'm a better bitch than you.
If women like you had a brain...then I wouldn't have to be redundant. Now take that colorist book you wrote and put it where your heart OUGHTA be.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 02:08 pm: |
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You spelled "inundated " wrong. |
Ruth Engels
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 03:39 pm: |
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Kola--
It's funny how Cynique equated having a sight impairment (ie. wearing glasses) and being "overweight" (unhealthy) with the beauty of darkerskinned black women. These three are in the same boat with her. Apparently, she is one of those "fair" women who fears that abolishing racism in its totality will take away the spoils that her lighter skin reaped from it. Her comments certainly did take me back to the pointy-nosed colorstruck yella mamas I grew up around in 1960's Georgia.
By the way, I am a lightskinned woman who didn't appreciate the severity of what you describe Kola until I had two very dark and beautiful daughters of my own. There really is a difference made in this community and your right, it does make people very uncomfortable to have it brought up. In many ways, we are annoyed by discussions of colorism just as Whites are annoyed by discussions of racism. Very true, Kola.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 05:19 pm: |
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My dear Ruth I didn't equate the flaws you described with anything except as to how the media perceives them. |
Michael T. Owens
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 06:11 pm: |
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Yikes. I leave for a few weeks and this is what happens? LOL. Glad to see the board is ALIVE, though! |
Bayou Lights
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:53 pm: |
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What about men writing female characters, and women writing male characters? We've discussed the white/black issue but how do you think it stacks up along gender lines? Site samples that work and don't work for you. Do you think one is easier than the other? Is it easier than writing across the racial divide?
Bayou |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 07:54 pm: |
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Hello All,
I have to agree with Kola on this one. I tried to make this argument in The Color Purple thread a month or so ago. This is a subject that needs to be discussed. Wallace Thurman tried to tell it in Blacker The Berry over 70 years ago. But obviously, ain't no black male director read that book or lived through the Black is Beautiful days of the 70s. And I guess, it ticks me off for a couple of reasons:
One, my mother is dark skinned, and the implication is that she's not attractive because she's dark. Well, for those who think it, directly say it or indirectly imply it...___k you!
Second, at this stage in the game, black folk with a scant bit of sense, should know better! And if you don't know, you're awfully thick. For anyone black person to head a Hollywood movie, it is ASSUMED that they have more than a scant bit of sense, and therefore, KNOWS better. I was wondering where Angela Bassett was. She's gorgeous, can act her ass off, and she's a no-show? Let me tell yawl a story. When I was younger, I met the most beautiful woman that I had ever seen. Her maiden name was Shannon Johnson. Around the time I saw her, the product Dark and Lovely was out, and she was the living image of the woman on the box. They could have been twins. I ain't seen no woman, in the movies, on a magazine cover, in the 25 years since I first laid eyes on her, hold a candle to Shannon Johnson. And then to make it worse, she has the nerves to have an hourglass figure and is one of the sweetest, nicest people, I've ever met. And those black directors wouldn't give Shannon the time of day. Why they're idiots, and I would stand to close to 'em cause I'm a firm believer that stupidity is contagious. That's the best I can say.
Third: Hey, recognize the FACT that WE have power, because WE account for a huge percentage of the total entertainment industry dollars. If this trend pisses you off, don't support these films. Don't buy the $7 movie ticket. Don't pay the $14 (Walmart price) for the DVD. And don't look at the movie when it hits HBO on that Saturday night. Because money talks and bull_hit walks, baby, all day long and well into the night. Believe it! Now, you don't have to have a big group of people to do it. I get satisfaction in knowing, that whatever money these people rake in, ain't none of it mine. Because the cold hard fact is these people relies on you (and me) for their living, not the other way around. See what I'm sayin'? I don't need any director to pay my light and gas bill, but they need mine to pay theirs. Hello. Now correct me when I go wrong.
Lastly, I say, this should not be considered a slam against any black person trying to make it in the entertainment industry. This is a very elementary and volatile argument to have. It is divisive, to say the least. We shouldn't be sheep and fall for the bull just because it's handed to us, no matter who's holding the serving tray. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 09:13 pm: |
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Thumper thank you so much for seeing that.
And let me also say that I am a huge fan of our lighter sisters like Halle Berry, Jada, Pearl Cleage, Veronica Webb and Mama Lena Horne (as I bet THumper is too). Whenever we speak up about colorism--many lighter women automatically assume that we have some kind of mark against them. In my books...I always make it a point to showcase the range of black women from the darkest (charcoal) to the lightest (vanilla)--I use the American System. A lot of black women write to me and thank me for that (almost always the very dark ones). Trust me, it's not easy slipp'n that MANY black women into one book, but I do it for political reasons and you'll never read a book of mines where [ALL] black children of every hue aren't celebrated.
Knowing Cynique...I bet she was just playing devil's advocate.
BAYOU LIGHTS...
As Bette Davis said--all the films she made were written by MEN and she often fought extremely hard to have lines of dialogue changed...she was particularly incensed over a line in the film "ALL ABOUT EVE" and she lost the battle. Here's the line:
"Sad really...all the things a woman [with a career] has to drop on her way to the top--only to find herself lacking when it's time to get back to being a woman."
BETTE HATED THAT LINE!! And she said loud and clear that only "a man" would write such a thing for a woman to say. She herself had been both a career woman and a wife and mother, so she didn't feel that the two were mutually exclusive as so many men in the 1940's (when the 1950 film was written as a play) THOUGHT.
I've very often watched films or read books and thought to myself..."NOW you know a man wrote that mess."
OR WORSE....Remember that soap opera DYNASTY when they had Diahann Carroll and Joan Collins come face to face in a big argument??? WHO DO YOU THINK GOT ALL THE GOOD LINES? White lady ofcourse. SHE TOLD DIAHANN CARROLL OFF!! and then walked out with a musical score vibrato. I remember thinking..."Cain't no white woman tell off no RICH black woman like that." I was just a kid...that whole week I sat in my clubhouse writing Comeback Lines for Diahann Carroll...and then I mailed it into DYNASTY. (*I had my interpreter write it out for me--she thought it was cute, but I was SERIOUS).
AND IN PAUL BEATTY'S BOOK, "The White Boy Shuffle"...he had this Asian girl "intimidate" and "tell off" some black street girls. I was like...yeah, a black man wrote this mess. Them girls would have tore her ass up!! (*I love Paul..but his blind love for ASIAN WOMEN often makes him write very untrue portraits of black women--for instance--we all have a nasty attitude). Ditto for John Edgar Wideman and his super-bad White girls. Dearest Please!
I myself was confronted by an Asian woman--a China girl--and it turns out...(WITHOUT A SCRIPT)...they don't know too much Kung Fu.
And I haven't run across one race of woman (including African women) who can TELL OFF a Black American woman. But on movie screens...we see it all the time. Remember how Julia Roberts told off that black female co-worker in "ERIN BROKAVICH"? How about the white girl telling off the black club girl in "Party Girl"? Amazingly in these films...black women are left speechless (and quick!)
MEN WRITE THESE SCRIPTS.
MEN WRITE THESE SCRIPTS.
MEN WRITE THESE SCRIPTS.
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 11:41 am: |
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Kola:
I think that was Claxton. His frustrations mirror those of John Faucettes ( I posted an URL where you can go to a site and read the introduction to BLACK SCIENCE FICTION: stories too stong too black too etc to be printed by the Science Fiction Magazines. I wrote my novel (and some others). If you want sometime, I could let you have a look at it, or others or a potpurri of Haydenesque writings. |
Kola
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2003 - 12:26 pm: |
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Chris email me:
kolamask@yahoo.com
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Michael T. Owens
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 06:02 pm: |
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Bayou,
In my debut novel, "Pick-Up Lines",I wrote from both male and female perspectives. It was a rather interesting experience. To my suprise, I found it easier-- well maybe not easier, but certainly more challenging and exciting to write from the female perspective. Changing perspectives pushed me to my creative limits--and that's good! I may explore both perspectives again in the future...who knows... |
Bennie
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 06:58 pm: |
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Kola that was hilarious! True dat
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