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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 10:18 am: | 
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In a thread above John McWhorter was quoted as saying something which I have heard many times especiallly from Black Conservatives but not all the time, something to the effect that "Racism is a given in this world or society."
I was brought up to believe that racism is ignorant at best and inherently evil at worst.
I never hear anybody say, "Murder is a given", or "Rape is a given" or anything else like that. It seems to me this is put forth for a couple of reasons--Racists want to be racist without suffering any penalty and there are a lot of people who don't approve of it, but somehow want us to ignore it or let it go away--it seems to me a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too (a very human trait, a very American trait) that somehow if we do not punish or discourage racist acts we can somehow "make it"--that we should accept wrong or evil in certain amount as a price for making it.
I know that you cannot change what is in anyone's heart--you can't stop people from hating or thinking bad of anyone--but you can damn sure change how they act. That's why we have laws and punishments for murder, rape, etc. That's why people take action, file lawsuits, march, boycott, write letters, mobilize, etc.
I cannot imagine anybody saying, "You know, Anti Semitism is a given. A fact of life in this world. You Jews ought to suck it up and get on with life." They say, "Never Again," and mean it.
What do you think? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 10:53 am: |
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Your argument is a good one, Chris. But - your last paragraph kinda undoes it because anti-semitism is, indeed, a fact of life, and the Jews have, indeed, sucked it up, and gone on to be successful and powerful in spite of it because they have faith in themselves. Far be it from me to endorse the Conservative line, but some of the ideas Conservatives call their own are really just common sense solutions that anyone can embrace. Since Life is not fair and conditions will never be ideal, Blacks have to try and do like the Jews do; believe that they are strong and realize that they are survivors and then put these assets in action by finding ways to circumvent adversity. At least, that's what I think. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 03:30 pm: |
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Cynique and Chris Hayden,
We are on the same wave length with these wonderful questions and exchanges...ijust saw Cornel West last night...and he was brilliant, again...but thats another story.
Racism is terrible, but it is a given. That does not preclude resistance to it. The conservatives are problematic for many reasons.
Lets, be real, although Jews are an excellent example of peoplehood, we don't have to follow them. Black folk have always struggled and fought even though we've known that racism exists. The Jews are an older people... african americans are not even 300 years old and Jews have not had the same experience in this country like we have. I would make one point that Jews do that we don't, they see themselves as a cultural group, with a history and tradition, we need to do the same...regardless of class region, etc... they are clear about their culture.
I think that conservatives, especially the black ones who are the worst cause i think they actually believe what they preach and the white ones don't, as Chris as said, use the racism is a given in order to argue that we're(black americans) lazy, indignant, etc...
As i stated before, we can work hard and persistent and call a racist a racist at the same time. We've always done... I think however, the confusion over race, racism, and cultural could cause us to lose our african american consciousness and hence we'll be US born blacks...not african americans, which in my mind, connotes a cultural basis, while black or black american states my phenotype what what empire i was born in. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 01:21 pm: |
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Hello All,
Naturally, I had to jump in this. *big smile* This notion of us "getting over it" is silly. Chris is correct, the battle against racism lies in the hearts of men. I find people strange. Bascially, we all know racism is wrong. See, but the thing is, people like to bring it out and use it like its a hammer when its convienet for them. It's the all-in-one tool. Used to hate, inspire, brotherhood, make money and everything else on both sides of the coins. Now, I know white folks that preach racism and how we black folk should stay in our place...until one of them or their loved in is stuck with needing a heart, liver, kidney transplant. Then there is no racism. I've seen most of them talk crap, but when its time to be in those trenches, they sing another song.
Now, while some of you are trying to give the Jews all these props, these are the same people that have successfully sued Swiss banks and European companies over the slave labor during the Holocaust, isn't it. That don't sound like they've gotten over it, and is willing to let bygones be bygones. Nor should they!! Never forget is their motto. And why should we forget. Their labor during the Holocaust built conglomerates, ours built a country. If they can get paid, why can't we? And if we can't get it monetarily, why not socially, legally?
Most Jews are not ashamed of their culture and history (except their Africanness) as we are ashamed of ours. "I'm tired of eatin' that slave food", "Why THEY think we're all like that", "I just hope the robber, murderer, ho, wasn't black", "I don't see why he has to talk like that, then THEY will think that we can't speak proper English". And you had better not come near them playing the blues. If you want to die in the near immediate future go around these black folks humming a spiritual. Nothing in the drugstore will kill you quicker. Then there are those of us that would skip over the past 300 years and reach back to Africa as if only then can we be proud of our hertiage. Me, personally, I say we took from Africa all that we needed to carry in order to be who we are today. That which does not kill us, makes us stronger, and as Celie said, "I'm here".
Black Conservatives: Well, we are all conservative to a point. But black conservatives are in it for the money. It's not that many of them, because a whole lot of black folk don't like looking stupid in public. Since white folk have the nerve to feel guilty, and then on the other hand want to continue doing what they're doing, a black conservative is perfect for 'em. Being a "good nigga" will bring you "good nigga" money. The white conservative will buy the black conservative books, pay to have 'em lecture at their all white country clubs and association meetings, put on TV to deny racism, poverty, and talk negatively about rap stars. Hell, being a token has never been so profitable. And you know, I have to claim them too, because it was black folks just like them that allowed white men to take us from the homeland in the first place. *eyebrow raised* |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 03:12 pm: |
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As far as racism is concerned, Thumper, "getting over it" are your words, not mine. Racism is not going to go away. The idea is to not let racism neutralize your motivation. All the melodramatic lamenting sounds good, but it doesn't solve the problem. The great white power structure remains firmly in place. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 04:11 pm: |
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I think we are talking about strategies for black folk, are we not? Cynique, in her graceful brevity, has helped me see this.
Lets do this again:
Chris is arguing that we shouldn't ignore racism and that we should continue to attack racism as Jews have attacked anti-semitism.
Cynique agrees with Chris, but argues that Jews succeed in spite of anti-semitism, because they believe in themselves.
I agree with both Chris and Cynique, but I argue that we have our own tradition of self-determination. And that Jewish are an older people and that their beast has not been as violent and hegemonic as ours.
Thump explains the pathos and hypocrisy of some whites. And he does similarly for the self-hating black liberals and conservatives. And he finally discusses the Afrocentrist(the West African i assume and not Egyptian kind?). And Thump, finally..lol, opines that Jews continue to attack anti-semitism through suing swiss banks and European companies over slave labor.
I think we are all saying the same things...we should attack racism and we need to be responsible for our own actions....we need to be agents of change through our personal lives as good people, parents, and communitiy members and we need to attack the system which oppresses us.
PS..excuse me if i simiplified ya'll arguments...
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 09:19 pm: |
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Hello Cynique,
And you know what else "doesn't solve the problem" is folk trying to uphold somebody else as an example of what we should be, or who we should model our struggle after. I don't need to look to the Jewish people as an example of what can be achieved in this country despite racism. No matter how many ways, times, and languages you say it in, they haven't went through what we went through in this country. Quiet as it kept, all they have to do is change their names and they are in like Flynn in the US. Unfortunately for us, its not that simple.
But you know what really burns me up is, is the notion, despite what you say, that racism is just a part of our lives and we shouldn't let it "neutralize" our motivation. Give me a break. I tell you what, since we have it so wrong, why don't some of those people that didn't let it "neutralize" them, help those of us that the racism damn near crippled. Talk is cheap, all day long. But the fact of the matter is this, from Clarence Thomas on down, they've used the old affirmative actions, lived and breathe and loved the notion of being tokens, and once they crossed that bridge and "arrived", they then take a match and set that bridge on fire to insure that no other AA make over either.
The fact of the matter is, for some of us, its hard, damn hard! And if you made it, that's fine, bully for you. But if you can't bring two or three with you, and they in turn bring two or three with them, then why bother. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 12:02 am: |
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OK, Thumper. So how do you suggest we deal with racism? If you can get your emotions in check long enough, tell me how to cope with racism. Tell me what our attitude should be? Tell me, so I can apply what you say the next time I feel like giving up because of entrenched racism. Give me an alternative. And let me remind you that I did not initially bring up the Jews as an example of role models. I just responded to what Chris said. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 01:15 am: |
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Cynique, Thump, and ALL,
Cynique, I'll give you my perspective to your questions:
Your attitude should be honesty. When you feel like giving up because of entrenched racism you should ask yourself what is the cause and ask yourself what you can do to solve or better deal with the problem. So i ask, Is it me? Is it society? Is it both...the answer is often both, so respond affirmatively to both. It is not an either/or question. To blame racism on all black peoples' failures is wrong, but to not identify racism' part and preponderate responsibilty is also wrong. Racial profiling prison industrial complex is mostly(not completely) racial(Crack/Cocaine sentencing, criminal versus non-criminal offensing sentencing, targeting black neighbors and not suburban and white neighbors, the notion of black on black crime, but there is no such thing as white on white crime). Teen pregnancy, alcoholism is mostly ourselves, yet it is also a problem of all people( i live in what some call a poor white trash area of upstate NY and i've seen too many white welfare recipients and white male and female drunks purchasing 40s in the morning to believe that only black people have social issues). In reality it is both...the question how do we address both.
Politically, speaking it is impossible for candidates and parties to argue both because its too complicated and they're trying to attract a heterogenious constituency. Therefore, to argue that there is racism is problematic, because most whites don't see themselves as racist and don't understand the institutional and cultural forms of racism. But the whites do understand the protestant work ethic, which is similar to the american myth that in the US if you work hard you will succeed. Black folk, as Christians and existenially americans, believe similarly. And it seems like common sense. You are poor because you didn't finish school, because you can't keep a job, etc... Yet, there are people with college degrees and have a job, but don't have the same opportunites because their race, class, and gender. The political system is not meant and really can not address those issues, but to deny the reality and complexity of these things,to ignore, etc... is problematic!
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 10:13 am: |
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Yukio,
I understand where you're coming from and I don't think my sentiments about not allowing racism to neutralize one's motivation is incompatible with what you are saying. I do realize, however, that what I should've stated further is that "righteous indignation" should be a part of the motivation that drives a person to defy racism.
Thumper: In response to one of your other comments, there are thousands of blacks who have not allowed racism to "neutralize their motivation" and have reached back and helped others. Just to name one, the founder of AALBC: Troy Johnson. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 01:12 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: You know you really ain't said nuthin'. First of all, just by the fact that we are here means that our motivation haven't been neutralized. The fact that we can love, get married, have kids, hell, even wake up in the morning means that racism haven't neutralized our motivation. But why should we settle for just that? *eyebrow raised*
Second as you said in your above posts, and I quote, "there are thousands of blacks who have not allowed racism to "neutralize their motivation" and have reached back to helped others". Really, just thousands? *eyebrow raised* Just thousands when there are tens of millions of us here? Well, hell, the problem is more severe than I had initially thought.
PS: Oh, and by mentioning Troy what was that suppose to do...*eyebrow raised*...take the steam out of my tea kettle or what? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 01:58 pm: |
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My, my, Thumper, we're a little testy, aren't we? LOL All of this "nothing" I'm saying certainly doesn't inhibit you from making long, tedious responses that, in themself, say nothing new or enlightening. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 04:22 pm: |
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Cynique,
What do you mean by "righeout indignation" and where does the phrase come from? |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 04:53 pm: |
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Hello Cynique,
Cynique, don't flatter yourself. That last post has to be just about the funniest thing you've said since you've been on the board. *LOL* But, hey, if that lie helps you get through the night, have at it, with my blessings. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 05:23 pm: |
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Alright ya'll, Lets kiss and make up! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 05:52 pm: |
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Well, Thumper from whom all wisdom flows, since this is your board, I'll let you have the last word because I'm tired of playin tit for tat with ya. |
Linda
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 06:00 pm: |
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Hey All
Interesting thread gone astray...ah...good to know things aren't getting boring on the board. And Thumper, "take the steam out of my tea kettle or what?".... I Love It! I have got to use that one, oh yeah.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 06:05 pm: |
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Yukio,
That was a typo; it was supposed to be "righteous" indignation. It's a phrase that's been around forever. When applied to a person, it means that they are indignant with good reason. Hence, in addition to not letting racism stunt me, I should also be indignant that it even exists in the first place.
Always a pleasure to have a civil discourse with you, Yukio. Incidentally in response to one of your earlier posts, I am from the midwestern tribe and Chicagoland is my clan. LOL |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 06:39 pm: |
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Cynique posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 01:58 pm:
My, my, Thumper, we're a little testy, aren't we? LOL All of this "nothing" I'm saying certainly doesn't inhibit you from making long, tedious responses that, in themself, say nothing new or enlightening.
Question: Why add more nothing to nothing? If you deemed that Thumper posted all of "nothing", why respond with more "nothing" and "say nothing new or enlightening" to his response. Just curious since the thread was going so well.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 09:43 pm: |
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Oh, Jeeze, Anonymous. Since you won't let it drop, here's my response to your post.
Why didn't my esteemed opponent answer the specific question I posed to him instead of going off on a tangent spewing the same old stale arguments we've been hearing for years? We all know that society is stacked against blacks, we all know that black conservatives have abused affirmative action, we all know that black skin is what keeps blacks from totally emulating Jews. But even Malcom X said we should take a page out of the Jew's book. We can at least try and emulate their success instead of standing around in a idealistic daze, thinking that if we wish hard enough racism will go away.( And why nitpik about rather than thousands of blacks reaching back to help others, there should be millions. Hell, if there are millions of blacks in a position to reach back and help somebody, who's left to reach back and help?)
Again, since we are not living in Utopia, we have to acknowledge that racism is a constant and we have to learn to co-exist with it. This may sound like defeatism, but I call it pragmatism. We cannot allow racism to stifle our ambitions to get ahead simply because it's easier to stand around bitch about it. And all the pat arguments and cliches about what black folks have to contend with is counter-productive. We all know how it's supposed to be, but it ain't about how it's supposed to be. It's about how it is.
This is my point of view. And I accept that others don't agree with it. I'm done.
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smarti
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 09:56 am: |
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That is all very well if you have the wherewithal to make informed decisions in your life. If you are born in a shitty area though and prevented to go to a decent school, what choices have you ultimately got? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 10:47 am: |
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Since you're a "smarti", you tell me the answer to your question. Could it be that you wave a magic wand and make racism vanish? And while doing this you might also want to free yourself from the delusion that all problems have solutions. I've already stated my position and it should be obvious that I embrace a "life isn't fair" mind set. As you may, or may not know, "Cynique" is a variation of the word "cynic", something I've become after many frustrating years of being a idealist.
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Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 11:18 am: |
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Cynique,
Thank you for the clafication and explanation.
I do think there are regional difference among blacks in tastes, music, dress, etc...Nevertheless, there are alots of these we share, which, i think, contribute to a "nationality" if i can use that term.
Everyone,
I think that we're being repetitive, so i think it would be fair to read all or most of the posts within the context of the other postees, so that we can appreciates eachother's posts.
In addition, lets me realistic. We can terminate racism and there will be some black people who are still lazy, poor, etc...just as there are whites, asians, latinos, etc...that are poor, lazy, etc.... I think there is some consensus, and now i'm reiterating something i've said, that we need and affirm a dual strategy of anti-racism and self-determination or personal edification.
In this regard, Smarti, people always can work on themselves, regardless of your obstacles, since there is always room for personal improvement. It is a two way street, structural and cultural(ie race, clas, gender)and individual(what you are going to do with the options and responsibilites that you have).
Lets strip away the personal charges and engage eachother on the issues of strategy.
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Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 06:30 pm: |
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Yukio posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 11:18 am:
Everyone,
I think that we're being repetitive, so i think it would be fair to read all or most of the posts within the context of the other postees, so that we can appreciates eachother's posts
Yukio, I most certainly agree. I have always wondered, if one poster thinks another has gone off topic or out in left field, instead of trying to reeling them back to the point, they seem to join them out in left field all the while trying to make themselves appear more on topic. Somehow they forget they are out there off topic, as well. lol
If one point or a sentence or two is off topic in response, it makes more sense to just ignore that one and address all the others that are on point. If the entire post is off topic, do the same, just ignore it. Continuing to add nothing to nothing is rather silly. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 10:38 pm: |
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Hello All,
I find it rather strange that the last few posts talk about simply getting off the subject of this thread, which is by the way off the subject of racism. Now, for just a brief education...since this discussion board has been up, threads have been known to go off the inital subject of the thread. The black classic thread went off the subject. Because Cynique decided to act all foo-foo over the title of Cecil Brown's book, "Stagolee Shot Billy", the thread turned in a completely different direction than what I intended. Threads going off the subject is common place. It happens. The same way people will start having a conversation about one thing and end up talking about something else. There are plenty of things to worry about more worthy than this thread turning in another direction. If you want to discuss the primary subject, have at it.
Second, Cynique has stated her position...with more holes in it than a loaf of Swiss cheese. It's shallow at best. But, I, and many of the regulars, have long since notice that whenever Cynique gets in trouble with supporting her views with any type of evidence out comes the folks that have never posted before to support her position. The number of posts authored by "anonymous" multiplies by 3. And then would get the nerve to argue with herself.
So Cynique either support your claim with something other than the old black conservative party line or make good on your word, as you stated at the end of your March 3, 9:03 PM post, and be done with it.
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Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 10:58 pm: |
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Thump and All,
Thumper you are correct. It is typical and consistent that threads "get off the subject." I, however, stated that we should read eachothers' posts, so that the same person or different people don't continue to make the same points and so that a person doesn't criticize a person on something that they've covered or responded to in another post in the same thread. Initially, on the March 2nd i attempted, perhaps poorly, to summarize the points so that we knew the basics of eachothers' points. After, i felt that other posters misquoted and took other posters' positions out of context, consequently responses and points are recycled. It's like when a student enters a class late and tries to ask a question or make a point that has already been made or answered. I think that we can avoid this by reading the posts, however long, or being humble enough to ask questions before making charges.
This is a very different point than changing the subject, which i affirm, since it often comes from a "stream of consciousness" that often trigger beter conversations than rigid one dimensional conversations.
Also, call me a pacifist, but i think the personal charges are unneccessary and often muddy the arguments.
In Peace |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 11:59 pm: |
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Yukio,
It's so great that we can always depend on you to be the voice of reason and intelligence and civility. I always look forward to your posts because I know they will be articulate and informative. You're a nice change of pace. Love ya! |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 12:43 am: |
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Cynique,
Thank You and everyone. This website, and especially these threads, are so special and necessary, even when we disagree. Where else do we have the opportunity to talk, speculate, and pontificate, and have our People aye man us or tell we're full of sh.t...lol! I think disagreement is important. If we can't disagree and ask eachother important questions,How else do we learn? Nevertheless, there is something about respect that i appreciate, which i think we owe to eachother. Some of us have thin skin, others don't. Still, we should not dissuade others from giving their positions. These discussions are too important, especially this one. Too bad we only have five or six people participating. Regardless of our own political perspectives, at least we're sharing our positions and we do think about Racism and realize it's still an issue. |
smarti
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 08:46 am: |
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Cynique, what I was trying to say was exactly that there aren't any easy solutions and you can't be prescriptive about these issues. I never said I was a fairy godmother. Also it's my brainpower that makes me the smarti I am, not any kind of magic.
My point was that it's easy for people like "us" who are all sufficiently educated to know how to use a computer (and have access to one, which isn't always a given), are eloquent (to varying degrees), to sit in our ivory tower and pontificate about how other, less privileged, people should pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Yukio - sorry, but plenty of people don't even have any boots (the metaphorical kind).
I find it self-reighteous to expect that all people can achieve the same things in life. We all have our own obstacles to contend with. Racism may be much easier for you to deal with because you have more weapons to defend yourself with than someone who may not have gone to college, who doesn't have a supportive family or whatever else safety net. (I know I am making assumptions here about people's background, but don't jump down my throat for it, just making a point).
I have been reading this thread and I don't think I have repeated what anyone else has said by the way. If this was covered in another thread then I wouldn't necessarily know.
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 11:31 am: |
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Smarti,
The "repetitive" opinion was not directed towards you, but to everyone.
Let me see if i can make my position clearer. I think we agree more than your reading of my response suggests.
Lets consider two of your points in consideration of what i've already stated, and i'll try to be more clearer by adding another paragraph or so to make the same point.
"Yukio - sorry, but plenty of people don't even have any boots (the metaphorical kind)."
"I find it self-reighteous to expect that all people can achieve the same things in life. We all have our own obstacles to contend with. Racism may be much easier for you to deal with because you have more weapons to defend yourself with than someone who may not have gone to college, who doesn't have a supportive family or whatever else safety net. (I know I am making assumptions here about people's background, but don't jump down my throat for it, just making a point)."
I stated a couple of days ago:
"It is not an either/or question. To blame racism on all black peoples' failures is wrong, but to not identify racism' part and preponderate responsibilty is also wrong. Racial profiling prison industrial complex is mostly(not completely) racial(Crack/Cocaine sentencing, criminal versus non-criminal offensing sentencing, targeting black neighbors and not suburban and white neighbors, the notion of black on black crime, but there is no such thing as white on white crime). Teen pregnancy, alcoholism is mostly ourselves, yet it is also a problem of all people( i live in what some call a poor white trash area of upstate NY and i've seen too many white welfare recipients and white male and female drunks purchasing 40s in the morning to believe that only black people have social issues). In reality it is both...the question how do we address both."
Here, Smarti, i argue three points, or so. 1. Racism exists and it should be attacked. 2. That all of black peoples' problems are not caused by rtacism and that as individuals and a community we need to be accountable for those things. 3.IN consideration of the first two points, be need to actively work on BOTH, since only one will not do it. 4. I made the point that these poverty, alcolholism, criminality, etc..are not black issues but societal issues that all people, regardless of their race or ethnicity deal and struggle with alcoholism, criminality, etc..
Now, these points emphatically go beyond your "boot straps" metaphor. And these statements, again, make it clear that all people can not achieve the same things in life.
Here's what i said yesterday, in the SAME post that you're responding to:
"In addition, lets me realistic. We can terminate racism and there will be some black people who are still lazy, poor, etc...just as there are whites, asians, latinos, etc...that are poor, lazy, etc.... I think there is some consensus, and now i'm reiterating something i've said, that we need and affirm a dual strategy of anti-racism and self-determination or personal edification."
Again, i stated that all people are bound by poverty, failure,etc...In other words, i'm stationg that all people can not achieve the same things in life, as you say.
Now, Smarti, i agree with you all of us don't have the same weapons, but we all have weapons. Everyone has access to schools, use it, there are programs for computers, find them and use it, etc...These weapons will not eradicate racism, but it will enable the person to get more tools. The point that i made is that we need to use our weapons to improve ourselves and challenge racism through the legal system, affirmative action, reparations, etc...
Lets consider black on black crime. Black conservatives and liberals say, we did to stop killing eachother, we are doing it to ourselves, this is not racism, this is self-hate. Now, i agree with most of this, but not all. COntrastingly to black conservatives, i would say it is racism in two ways and i'm sure there are many more: 1. What mostly causes and leads people to crime is limited resources and political power, so that racism and class oppression, leave many of us with inadequate books, uninterested and racist and condescending liberal white teachers, communities that have inadequate hospitals, expensive grocery stores, and underfunded libaries. 2. It is racist and ridiculous to use the term black on black crime, when most crimes are committed by whites, and the crime in white communities are committed by whites on whites, so why are WE labeled as immoral or inherently criminal when white folk, asians, etc.., are doing the same thing. In China town, the chinese are committed chinese or chinese crime. The point is that all people committ crimes "against themselves" since most areas are segregated, which leads to crime be committed against people of your own persuation. And that poor people, regardless of race,ethnicty,etcc, usually have larger crime indexes, i think thats what they're called but don't quote me, so again crime will be committed against those folk in poor communities.
Clearly, black people could reduce their participation in crime, and we should [some of it is selfishness and greed..ie the bling, bling, reluctance to work a low paying job, etc...we've all had to do it sometime in our lives...i popped popcorn and worked as a messenger on commission...don't assume anything Smarti about folk, perhaps you personally know others, but you don't know me] but that possiblity is interdependant upon the improvement of resources and services in blacks communities, as well as many other things.
Now, finally, in terms of you reading the thread issue. I think i responded to your statements to me, Yukio if indeed they were to me, Prior to your commentary. SO, you must have missed my posts, i was unclear, or/and you did read the threads closely before calling folk "self-righteous" and using and abusing BTW's metaphors...lol!
If i not clear, ask and i'll try to work it out.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 11:45 am: |
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Hi Smarti,
Glad to get another perspective on this subject. Sorry if I seemed combative in my response to you, but I had my game face on.LOL. Anyway, Yukio mentioned something that we have not fully explored in the subject under discussion, and that is the concept of "strategies". The war against racism has to be waged on many fronts. What I advocate is one way to confront racism. Obviously there are other ways to attack it, but the strategy I championed has resulted in small victories, as evidenced by the growing black middle class. Whether we admire this segment of the population or not, we have to concede that they have made strides. Obviously, there are other strategies to use in the attack plan. Unfortunately many of these strategies are more like wish lists. They don't produce appreciable results because they requires ideal conditions and apparently don't take into account the "ambush" of human fraility. Sad but true, the old "survival of the fittest" law continues to prevail in this unperfect world. I agree that there is no "one size fits all" solution and I'd be interested in hearing what you would consider a VIABLE alternative stategy to my hard-nosed one. |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 12:41 pm: |
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Cynique,
What are the idealist wish lists?
In terms of strategies:
Also, shouldn't the politicians be accountable to their entire constituency and not just those that voted for them? I think that is something we can do as voters and as a black community! Shouldn't our schools have more computers, more books, challenging teachers? We should demand these things! Simultaneously, I also think parents need to take a greater part in their children's education; yet, i wonder if parents assume that their children are getting what they're suppose to get beyond their attendance in school. This is something that is about community activism, not racism. It is really a multi-fronted assault, as you say Cynique, but i think we need to make sure the community, as well as individuals, the government, and the general social structure, need to know their part, which means that we can not champion one front.
Cynique, i really don't believe in the middle class routes, since they mostly don't give back as Thumper lamented. ALso, promotin the middle class route is not politically viable; it creates the assumption that all black people need to do is work harder and stop being lazy, at least this is what happens in the political spectrum. So, when voters and people in general think about black people, they see place us into fictive categores: Oprah vs. welfare queen, harder worker v. lazy negro, then it becomes a formula...work hard success. If you're not successful then you must be lazy. This logic assumes that the system, albeit racism, class, gender, is not accountable and that it works. The black middle class and most of us think primarily in terms of our individual lives, and therefore, we often usually go with the assumption that if i can do it then everyone can. This is not the case, because your life is precisely your life. And your success, does not preclude that the larger society is not accountable.
Now, Cynique, i know you're not saying that the larger society is not racist or that we don't have racism as a presence, but most people that make the arguments that you've made are not as savvy as you are, and they are indignant as to admitting that racism exists.
The "survival of the fittest" law assumed that there was no human agency, but i argue that we can work on ourselves and make sure the greater society changes through activism.
I say that this country works for few people; I know that it can not work for everyone, but i think we can work to make it work for more people. In other words, i 5% of people own 85% of the wealth, i say that we close the gap. We don't all work as hard as eachother and we don't all have the same talents and luck, so obviously we all can't have the same wealth, but there needs to system where we can ensure that things are fair not necessarily equal. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 12:43 pm: |
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By the way,
When i state someones name, i'm speaking to that person and everyone, so please respond if you're interested. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 01:30 pm: |
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Yukio,
I don't really have a problem with those of you who persists in portraying the black middle class as a the "villain" in this scenario but - just what would you tell a young black adolescent to aspire to in order to improve his lot in life?
Also, although the your goals are admirable, in order to implement them, wouldn't it require that the government be overhauled and re-structured into one that is socialistic in its philosophy?
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yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 05:08 pm: |
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Cynique,
I don't think the black middle class is villainious, some middle class folk give back. Yet giving back is not enough. I think individualism and substituting class for race is villainious. I just don't think class aspirations solely or even naturally improve the lot of black folk in general, since our problems are not limited to class issues, and especially since a capitalist system is not meant to benefit all.
I would have a young person to work as hard as possible, in school as well as in their personal aspirations. In addition you don't have to be from the middle class to be a harder worker and to desire to improve your living conditions. The working poor work hard as hell, and often their children use those habits they learned from home to get to college, professional school, etc.. I suspect, we agree upon these points.
In addition, i would have the young adolescent do community service and learn their rights as citizens, which means using the political system to made structural changes. Middle class people and elite groups, especially corporations, use lobbyists to change and introduce legislation, give money to poliitcal parties to seek political favors. Randall Robinson and others are doing the same thing.
Remember, Cynique, i'm affirming your position AND the community activist position. You ask me questions as if i've not made both points.
I don't know if it would require a socialist government, but it would, as you say, requiring restructuring the government. Sure. Lets put US history in perspective.
The civil rights movement was a continuatiuon of Reconstruction, structural and legal changes, although limited, were made to include black folk in the general social structure. Labor laws, the right for women to vote, etc... all took many years and all were implemented through activism. In other words, there was always interest groups, racial, ethnic, etc..that used used politics and the law to improve the groups' societal conditions. Simultaneously, there were peope in society doing their jobs, going to church, working assidiously in school.
Everyone can not be an activist, I haven't been lately, but i believe their work is important and necessary. Similarly, hard work and faith in ones' self is what i affirm, not being middle class because that has nothing to do with your work ethic, just how much money u make and that really doesn't mean anything in my book. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 05:10 pm: |
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Cynique,
You forgot to answer my question about idealist wish lists. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 07:28 pm: |
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Yukio,
You are so knowledgeable about everything and so passionate and sincere in your hopes for making the world a better place that I don't really have a problem with any of the things you say. I feel very comfortable accepting your points of view because they make sense. What I don't feel comfortable about is how I ended up being a spokesman for the middle class. Somebody else needs to speak up, and plead their case because I have big-time problems with the black bourgeosie, myself.I give them their props but I'm very often turned off by their superficiality. |
carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 07:35 pm: |
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Hello Yukio
I admire your attempt to govern or should I say quite down the board. You feel as if the personal charges are unnecessary and often muddy the issue. I have to disagree with you, the individuals in which I assume you are directing your statements towards have a history. You, having just recently been reading and posting on this board probably no nothing of this. Anyway, I'm sure you've heard the expression, "sometimes you just gotta show your ass" or "I had to act like a fool, because the other person didn't seem to understand anything else". Well in support of Thumper's exchanges or charges as you call them. He's tried on many many many occasions to deal with ahh ahh lets just say certain individuals in a civil way but they frequently did not respect that. You know nothing of this and the problem is, well, playing right into you. So, as much as I appreciate your posts which are always concise and informative maybe you should let the moderator play his hand the way he see's fit. We all know that sometimes we have to just show or ass. You may not believe in that but for some it's the only thing that works, if only breifly.
Thanks again for livening up the board, you are an asset!
Anyone, correct me if I'm wrong, is there another way? Do you or do you not have to sometimes step out of your nice negotiation and just go left? Would anyone care to post an example in which this worked or DIDN"T work. It can backfire for sure. Come on don't be shy, I know y'all have an opionion.
Carey |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 07:36 pm: |
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Hello All,
And that ladies and gentleman is what's called the artful dodge of the question. I ain't surprised. *LOL* |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 08:39 pm: |
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yukio posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 05:10 pm:
Cynique,
You forgot to answer my question about idealist wish lists.
Yukio, you'll learn.  |
Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 10:13 pm: |
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Carey, Thumper, and All,
I know there is a history among folk. I'm new but not naive. Nevertheless, i believe in civility because some people are turned away. The conflicts that you alluded to have nothing to do with me, but when i think they drown out the discussion, especially such as this one, then i think its problematic and unfortunate.
Thumpers' and Cyniques' engagement was important, not because of the personal history of conflicts, but because Thumper briefly pointed out what i think what was most important of the entire dialogue:the point that Jews use the political and legal system to their advantage.
After that, things became personal and other posters focused on their beef instead of the important points each made. In other words, Carey, i'm less interested in individuals and their conflicts and more interested in the continuation of the intellectual ideas. I can't silence Thumper nor do I want to. Personal histories should not stymie dialogue, however. I would have loved to hear Thumper talk more about strategies, not for the benefit of disagreeing with Cynique, but for the benefit of others on the posts, especially since Thumper and I, as far as i understand his posts, seem to agree on many of these points and it would be nice to learn more.
Carey,
I'm not that nice...lol! I just like the dialogue and i wasn't directly identifying Thumper...just what was said and the preliferation of "combative nothingness" after. I respect Thumper as well as everyone else, here. I've gone "left" and it was necessary and it was personal, but I will not trust those individuals for the rest of my life, and i would not even engage them because i don't believe that they know how to discuss ideas on their own merit.
Lets consider my disagreements with Kola at the beginning of the year. She made personal accusations against myself and virtually all african americans, nevertheless, she made important points and mixed in with the hate she revealed i'm sure important information to people unaware of africa or at least her versioin of africa. Simultaneously, with so much hate in her responses and rhetoric, other posters failed to appreciate the important points she tried to made, although it was definitely masked in hate and biologized racial subjectivity.
Respondents, didn't get past the hate and they couldn't her contribution. NOw, if the sister was killing folk like Hitler, then i wouldn't give her props, but these are words without missiles and an army terrorizing countries and communities. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 10:31 pm: |
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Boy! The old adage about the "pot calling the kettle black" is alive and well on this board. I'm still waiting for all my detractors to answer my questions about viable alternatives. NOT! The fact of the matter is that I've given up on trying to make my point because all these snide people have become so caught up in personalities that nothing constructive is being accomplished.
Yukio, it's all yours, my dear. I think the reason I have no problem with giving some ground to you is because you make your points with clarity and logic. But I would add that, in making this "wish" list, do you think your wishes will come true?
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Yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 12:16 am: |
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Cynique,
I don't have any wishes, but besides paying bills on time...lol! You birthed the wish lists, so you should define what that lists is that you argue people have.
I don't think my points were idealistic. But they are wishes: since black folk thought ending slavery would never happen and it did and they still survived with humanity, we thought jim and jane crow would never end and it did and we still survived with our humanity. All these struggles were probably thought as "wishes" by those that lived during those eras. Now, although the struggle continued and many didn't see the fruits of their labor, we owe it to them, ourselves, and our progeny to continue the struggles, because they still exists.
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Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 12:19 am: |
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Thank you Yukio,
Again you've managed to draw, from this mug of mine, a smiles with your post. Even if i'm not particularly interested in the subject manner of the posts, I'm nevertheless always entertained by your use of the English language, much as I am by Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. Now of course I'am not comparing you to them but I always liked to hear and read their speeches becasue of the unique phrasing, that I also find in your posts. It may well be that much of your rhetoric (positive) is heard by many on a regular bases but too me it's fresh and makes me say "ah, that was sweet, go aheard girl, talk that thang". Sometimes the phrases are small such as "biologized racial subjectivity" and "Combative nothingness" and "preponderate responsibility" yet effective. Furthermore your posts do not appear to be a case of someone "flexing", "trying" to sound wise and intelligent but coming across as a big fat black blow hole. You know what I'm talking about. We have visitors like that, they're amusing in a strange way. Anyway love, keep on doing what you do, you're straight.
As it has been said, there's nothing wrong with people going off line, it's a breath of air, it's like the fluff class you took in college to give you a break from the grind of the more complex subjects. I look at it as kind of a loss leader. You get people to tune in with a little healthy spat or two and then get back to the meat and potatoes which at times can be tuff and boring. I know we can get on folks nerves sometimes (Hi claxton *lol*, Hi Cinique *smile*) but nevertheless we still love and respect each other because we are a virtual family. Okay, that's enough of my rambling, what topic was this anyway *lol*? |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 12:26 am: |
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Carey,
No doubt! I wasn't trying to police folk...sorry if it seemed that way.
One Love! |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 12:35 am: |
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You're fast too! Don't you ever go to bed *smile*.
You must be one of those work at home types?
I did that for a year and my productivity declined as my waistline increased.
Good night.
Peace.
Carey
Carey |
smart
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 08:47 am: |
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Hi all
Yukio, I didn't call you self-righteous (please re-read my post). I said I find the idea that everyone can achieve the same self-righteous. Since you don't espouse those views, you don't need to feel I attacked you. I didn't. Although the previous sentence was directed at you, the following wasn't, that's why I started a new paragraph. And I'm not just rolling over asking you to tickle my belly, I'm being sincere.
Cynique...solutions? I have them, though I'm afraid that mine echo Thumper's in that I believe reparations would go a long way - not cash, but the continuation of affirmative action, decent housing, a genuine chance for everyone to go to a good school with motivated teachers. A reform of the legal system and a ban on all brain-rotting TV shows that promote consumerism to induce apathy and stifle political engagement. This is pretty much in a consensus with what other people have also said. If I was more original, I would be in politics, changing things myself! |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 10:12 am: |
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Hi Smarti,
Thanks for addressing my questions. How can anybody not agree with the agenda of your alternative strategy? It's a good one, which is why voices have been expressing these needs for years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years, ad infinitum. Now, as I was saying...
Pardon me for trivializing the subject. But I'm just tired of discussing it. |
Anonymous
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, April 16, 2003 - 05:36 pm: |
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Greetings,
I'm not sure if anyone is even still remotely interested in this thread or not, however I just happen to run across it as I was doing research for a AA book club site I'm in the process of developing and I felt compelled to respond. I think the answer to the question of how we ensure more AA's share in the success of a few has been stated and I would like to re-state it with my own personal anecdote. The solution, simply stated, is to have more of the few "give back" to more of the many. The problem is that for those of us who are fortunate to "make it" in this society, giving back seems more of a added burden or chore vs. something we should inherently do. This is my dilemma. I am a 27 year old AA male whom works for a major technology company and I feel very blessed and fortunate to have the position I have, at the same time I worked very, very hard to put myself through school to get here. And during those times I was busting my ass to be the best, I knew of too many AA's who made the conscious decisions of doing other things besides "hitting the books". Now this is not to say that there are some who had legitimate reasons for not doing well in school or not getting that certain position, but I'm sick and tired of so many "woe as me" AA's refusing to believe that there are many in our culture who choose not to work hard or take education seriously. Again, I'm not saying that everybody that works hard in this society regardless of background will make it, but what I am saying is it's hard to tell whether many AA's would've made it because of their serious lack of effort. Now my other point about "giving back" seeming more like a chore for those of us that make it, stems from my upbringing. Basically, I grew up with the attitude that nobody was going to give me nothing so naturally once I became "successful" (Mind you, I could loose my job tomorrow lol!) the concept of giving back was foreign to me.
It's only been in the last couple of years that I've realized through "soul-searching" that #1 my story is important for people of my background to hear and learn from and #2 If I want to see AA's to continue to progress then I have to do as much as I can to help out. So although "giving back" to the community seems like a simple solution, it is as most things in life alot easier said then done. Ok, that's my peace. I'm sorry it isn't as eloquent as some of the others, but there ya go.
mj |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, April 17, 2003 - 06:09 pm: |
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I found what you had to say interesting. I think your attitude might be more typical than you realize. |
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