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Thumper
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 08:46 pm: | 
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Hello All,
It seems like I'm always behind. I should have composed this list last month. Oh, well, that's spilt milk. I was looking over the list for the the first three months of the year, what exciting books are about to burst onto the scene!! Let me highlight a few:
1.) Reconsidering The Souls of Black Folk by Stanley Crouch and Playbell Benjamin. Doesn't this sound interesting, especially to the folks who like to defend DuBois's The Soul of Black Folk to me. And you know who you are? *eyebrow raised*
2.) Reconstructing the Dreamland: The Tulsa Race Riot of 1921, Race Reparations, and Reconciliation by Alfred Rophy, Randall Kennedy. Another title that interest me, since my interest in the Tulsa race riot is still pretty high.
3.) Stagolee Shot Billy by Cecil Brown. I first heard of Stagolee from Wilson Pickett singing the song. I'm going to be all over this one. Carey, you do recall the song Stagolee don't you? Didn't you know the real Stagolee? *eyebrow raised*
4.) The Lost Way Back by Nichelle Tramble. Need I say more. I'm also all over Maceo's return. Carey, I tell you all about it. Daddy Al is still low down for how he treated Maceo and I'm sticking with it. You nor Nichelle can convince me otherwise.
5.) Minion: Book 1, The Dark Legend Begins by L. A. Banks. A vampire book. I'll let you all know how it goes. I need a good vampire book.
There's a lot more. I hope this whets your appetite some. |
Chaz
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 24, 2003 - 09:04 pm: |
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New Book on the Horizan. Titled "Harmful Secrets" by Charles Walker |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 12:30 pm: |
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Thumper,
When people defend the Souls of Black folk, What exactly are they defending? I'm wondering, because i love the book...but primarily as a artifact not necessarily as a work that speaks directly to todays concerns, though it is still relevant. |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 01:07 pm: |
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Thumper: The story of Stackolee is a very old one--some people claim that the actual incident happened here in St. Louis, though I'm not sure about that. The Frankie and Johnnie story apparently was based on an event here. I'll check on it.
Yukio: Apparently the problem of the 21st Century, as it was for the 20th, is the problem of the Colorline. The power and analysis of the book is still evident today. I got to see how Stanley tries to handle it. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 05:01 pm: |
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Hello Yukio,
A year or so ago, Carey and some of the others asked me to reconsider my position on DuBois and his Souls of Black Folk. I'm quite negative about it. Although I admit that I haven't read it all the way through. Actually, the point of the book that pisses me off the most is his Talented Tenth theory. Frankly, it still pisses me off because so many of us has bought, and still buying, into that bull_hit. I even tried to read the book again and have to admit that I fell asleep on it. And then my heart really wasn't in it. My problem with reading those types of books is that I want to talk back to the author, especially if I disagree with his point of view. After hearing him go off on his little tangent, I should get the same courtesy by correcting him on where he went wrong. *smile* Since I can't do that to DuBois, why bother. But the synopsis of Reconsidering The Souls of Black Folk intrigues me. Before I read it, I'm going to have to read DuBois's book. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 05:04 pm: |
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Hello Chris,
Hold on Chris, now everything can't be happening in St. Louis. I thought Stagolee was from the South. Maybe he is from St. Louis. I still haven't found out if Stagolee was a real person or not. Can you enlighten me please? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 08:11 pm: |
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Come on you guys! "Stagolee?" Isn't it "Stagger Lee!" You can read about this legendary character on different web sites using that name as your "keyword".
And it's pertinent to consider that at the time DuBois said what he had to say, his ideas were the only alternative to the Uncle Tom doctrines of Booker T. Washington.
Along these lines, what follows is a quote from a new book entitled: "Authentically Black: Essays For The Black Silent Majority" by John McWhorter, a black "conservative". The author and the book were profiled by Mary Mitchell, a black columnist, for The Chicago-Sun Times.McWhorter's challenge to young AAs is: "We cannot insist that we are a strong people and at the same time maintain that we can only succed under ideal conditions. Yes, you are going to encounter residual racism, there's racism in every country in the world. You cannot wait for it to go away. The message to young people is you can succeed despite not having ideal conditions. And if you can't, then you don't believe that black is beautiful. You don't believe we're a strong people. You don't think of us as survivors."
Something to think about. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 10:19 pm: |
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Hello Cynique,
Although the song title is Stagger Lee, in my neck of the woods, its pronounced Stagolee. Which for all I know, it is Stagolee or even Stack O'Lee. First it indicates, to me, that the name is straight out of the south. And I know for a fact that many people will call a person by their first and middle name, pronouncing both as if its one word, Billiejean, Bettijo. I have an uncle who to this day is still called Henrygray. So don't mess with me and Stagolee.
Cynique, OK, but what does Booker T. Washington have to do with DuBois' Talented Tenth theory? Do you know what his Talented Tenth theory is? *eyebrow raised* |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 25, 2003 - 10:53 pm: |
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Thumper
I agree with Cynique. Du Bois was was an essential alternative to Booker T. Washington. Interestingly, if you read A Biography of A Race by David Levering Lewis, there is a discussion on how bother shared similar views.
The Souls of Black Folk was published at the turn of the century and his analysis, therefore, pertained to US society at that time. Here are two points to consider: DuBois was prophetic about the problem of the twentieth century being the colorline; DuBois later rejected his "talented tenth" analysis. Indeed, the man lived almost 100 yrs, so he constantly changed his views and analysis on society and blackness. Read Black Reconstruction, written in the 1930s; in Black Reconstruction DuBois argues that the movement of history and of the race is in the efforts of black slaves, people of color in general, and the white working class. This position is almost a 360 degrees from what he said in 1903 in the Souls of Black Folk.
Now, i don't agree with Talented Tenth argument, but i think it is fair to acknowledge that his views and analysis changed overtime. I think it is important to situate a person in history when we access, analysis, and debate their perspectives, considering that particular historical events and conditions led them, as well as folk in the present, to make particular arguments.
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Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 12:34 am: |
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Thumper,
Dubois's "Talented Tenth Proposal, did not prevent him from being an alternative to Booker T. Washington who set very limited goals for black folk.
And since you're not speaking "Stagolee" , you're writing it, why not spell it right to avoid confusion? |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 01:11 am: |
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Hello Thump
Stagolee, shot Billy, oh she shot that po' boy bad, went clean through his belly and broke the tenders glass. How's that Thump *smile*
Now, you wrote "Stagolee. Chris spelled it Stackolee. I would have spelled it as Stagalee. So since this is an informal exchange of thoughts and ideas, I don't think the spelling is very important at all. By the way, my mother is called "hazelee" for Hazel Lee. Confusion? Who's confused?
I see you've opened up "The Talented Tenth" debate again *lol*. Did you ever finish reading W.E.B. DuBois, A Reader by D. L. Lewis. I know you had said you were going to tackle that monster last year.
And no I didn't know the real Stagalee but I have stayed at a Holiday Inn *smile*. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 01:38 am: |
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Very good Yukio, Du Bois did indeed change his position on his Talented Tenth theory. He had assumed that this trained Talented Tenth would make personal sacrifices in order to solve the Negro problem. He later came to believe that it was quite posible that what he could be actually doing was building a group of selfish, self-indulgent, well to do men, whose main interest in solving the Negro problem could be personal, without any real care as to what became of the mass of American Negroes. He changed his view because he came to realize that selfishness is more natural than sacrifice.
I liked your statement that his view and analysis changed over time, that's so true. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 06:53 am: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: I ain't goin' trip about you and your proper grammar kick that you're on. I have never been for all that on the discussion board. I ain't for it now. Now, if you want to type propa English, knock yourself out. I ain't doin' it, and I'm not telling anyone else to do it either. But you know, I may be in the minority here, but I ain't never been shame of my country ways. That has never been a good indicator of intelligence to me. It has let me know that I was twice as smart as they are. Frankly, I like being smart. All this to say, get over Stagolee, or as Carey said Stagalee, it ain't that deep.
Before I turn you loose, why did you bring up Booker T. Washington? You know, we can discuss DuBois without discussing Booker T.. They ain't Siemese twins, where when you see one, you see the other. And your racism quote doesn't relate to the intra-racism that DuBois Talented Tenth theory is based on.
Yukio and Carey: DuBois may have changed his mind, but that's more like closing the gate after the horse got loose. The fact still remains that the basic foundation for DuBois Talented Tenth theory is still alive and well in our community. For example, earlier when I discussed The Color Purple, I asked if it was directed by a black director, would Whoopi Goldberg had gotten the part? No she wouldn't have and we know it. She would have been considered too dark to play the lead. Right or wrong? When Berry Gordy passed over Aretha for Motown because he thought she sounded "too black", what was that? These things may not be directly attributed to DuBois Talented Tenth theory, but the root of all of these mentioned things is still the same. NO matter what he did, DuBois can't take it back, its still affecting us today, 100 years after he wrote it. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 09:55 am: |
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Yes, Thumper, we all know that you are a "good ol down home boy" because you revel in this image and tell us about it every chance that you get. However, my criticism of you had nothing to do with your use of proper grammar. It was about distorting a name. And Dubois and Booker T. Washington were, in a way, like Siamese twins. Back in the day, they were intense rivals and were always mentioned in the same breath. As for the quotes from the book I cited, I didn't use them to illustrate my point. |
Soul Sister
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 10:04 am: |
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Hey All,
Im loving the conversation. I am glad to know that DuBois' Souls of Black Folk is a topic of discussion it is the theme for Black History Month.
As for the talented tenth and the opposition Washington had toward being unincluded have so many threads -- clearly, Dubois was northern while Washington was southern - their socialization to the world were radically different.
However, DuBois experiences an epiphany before his death in Ghana as an expatriate. I am a firm believer that we have the right to disagree with decisions and opinions of the past - but we owe those ancestors some latitude and should try to understand the who behind the what they were saying.
ps -- Carey - good to see ya -- Me, Im a favorite of Bad, Bad Leroy Brown -- and Jim Croce - tee hee.
pps Thumper -- if you still have my email - can you drop me a line - I need some information on how to contact publishers for review copies - Ise a reviewer now - and would appreciate your guidance - winky/wink
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Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 02:49 pm: |
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Thumper--despite what a lot of folks around here would have you believe, St. Louis IS in the South--it was a slave state (they used to sell black folks right on the steps of the Old Courthouse), was the site of the Dred Scott decision, practised segregation until the 50's, and is settled largely, especially among blacks, of immigrants from the South (people of my mother's generation still refer to Mississippi, Arkansas, and Tennessee as "home" no matter how long they have lived here.
In some versions of the Stagolee story his name is Stacker Lee, which name arose from his working on the levee--again it is a story with many threads and I'll try to trace some down.
Re DuBois--Thump, the Talented Tenth phase was one the DuBois passed through, indeed he developed the theory partly in response to Booker T. WAshington's (You can rarely discuss one without discussing the other--like Malcolm X and Martin LUther King later they represented opposite poles on the question of race) accomodationist stance, which held that we should be drawers of water and hewers of wood, and not worry about getting our rights--even in that phase DuBois held that this Talented Tenth was to uphold and help the race--he later moved on to embrace philosophies closer to Washington's, and Marcus Garveys, and wound up a Communist and renounced his U.S. citizenship to live in Ghana.
You must understand the times--that the very concept of Black equality was relatively new and people were trying to find the method and path--something that has not , some would argue, been totally and definitively discovered.
Read his essays in there on the Spirituals, on the history of Black Reconstruction, on the dying of his young son--see if you can feel the same way.
Where did you get your information on black director's rejecting Whoopi Goldberg for the role--I have never heard or read where any black director said this. Also, I am unaware that Aretha ever tried to go to Motown--I know she was on Columbia before she went to Atlantic, where she was totally misused. |
akaivyleaf
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 04:57 pm: |
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Chris, I must agree with you on considering St. Louis the south. The people there have a lot of southern values, though not geographically located in what we term the southern United States. I was born and raised in East St. Louis Illinois and moved to Atlanta (which undoubtably is in the south) and fully concurr that the mentality of those people of color who reside in St. Louis is southern. Mississippi will always be home, just ask my people who still live in E. St.
I was under the impression that the name Stackolee was in reference to the man who worked the levee on the Mighty Mississippi. I will have to do further research on him, I haven't heard that name since I was a child.
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Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 05:30 pm: |
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Hello All,
Boy, didn't this thread turn interesting all of a sudden. Let me get to it:
Cynique: Answer me this, how do you know that "Stagolee" is a distortion of the name Stagger Lee? *eyebrow raised* With all of the slurring and dropping of letters that is famous for most southern dialect, how do you know that the sound in the first name is a "g" or a "k"? *eyebrow still raised* Get back with me after you think on it for a minute. Hell, take two I'm feeling generous. Since you're just throwing things out there in your posts despite whether its relevant to the subjects at hand, mind if I give it a try? Thanks! You are just too good to ME. I'm listening to Dinah Washington right now. "I'd rather be an old man's darlin'. Ain't going to be a young man's slave. I'm going to treat him like a little baby, and ease him into an early grave". *LOL*
Carey: I knew you would know what I was talking about with the names. *smile* My stepgrandmother's name is pronounced "short A sound-va-leen" but her name is spelled Evelyn. And if you didn't want to get told off, you had better call her a-va-leen too.
On the DuBois thing: OK, I'm willing to concede the DuBois and Washington tip. But answer me this, didn't Washington fulfill all of the requirements of DuBois's talented theory? You know, Washington sacrificed, lead folks, contributed, was light-skinned. Sounds like the perfect fit, right? *eyebrow still raised from earlier with Cynique* But, correct me if I'm wrong, the theory was still based on skin color? The lighter hue was going to achieve and bring the poor dark skin folks along because only the lighter skin folks could accomplish the things necessary and they would be a lot easier on the eyes of white folk.
Chris: The Whoopi Goldberg statement was straight speculation, because as you know, Steven Spielberg directed The Color Purple. I brought it up because as I notice something when I was watching the movie Brown Sugar. Again, tell me if I'm wrong and name the picture where I'm wrong, but, have you noticed that the lead female roles in our current crop of black movies all pass the brown paper bag skin test? *eyebrow raised*
Now, I always use to wonder, as did other folks, how did Motown overlook Aretha, when both was in Detroit at the same time. Gordy wanted to sign Aretha's sister Erma, but not Aretha. Recall, Gordy has never answered. In Mary Wilson's book My Life As a Dreamgirl, she answered it and wrote that Gordy didn't want Aretha because she sounded too black and he was wanting records that crossed over to the white audience. Now, he has since denied it, but there is definitely something to it, as far as I'm concern which explains Diana Ross's career. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 06:50 pm: |
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Thumper,
I don't think the talented tenth essay mentions color. DuBois probably, nevertheless, was color struck, as black folk are now. I don't think, however, leadership in his mind was determined by color, but educational training.
DuBois essay argued that the talented tenth would lead and educate the masses, show them direction, etc... This analysis was elitist, but it was what was believed then and taught in schools, from the shack where teachers taught five students, some children, others adults, to the universities that held dozens of students. They assumed that since most people were not quite a generation out of slavery that those with "education" would teach the illiterate and "uneducated" not only education but also politics, the economy, etc...While, DuBois' rhetoric was elitist it was, nevertheless, sincere. If we consider the historical moment, even though i conceptually disagree with his talented tenth thesis, i do understand and it does make sense, however elistist it is...not necessarily morally right, etc...
As a matter of fact, the talented tenth thesis is in action. All of our intellectuals, whether traditionally trained or organic(self-educated, like Hubert Harrison, Malcom X, Baraka, and our very own Cynique, of course at the time (1903) DuBois may not have thought organic intellectuals as intellectuals, so pardon my own ahistorical point), are all the talented tenth. They head both political, educational, economic institutions...those college professors, wall street brokers, book reviewers, all intellectuals, leading and shapping black culture.
As i said DuBois changed. He didn't necessary think that intellectuals didn't have an important role, but he believed and argued that the black working classes were fundamental, the driving force of black freedom.
Du Bois had no problem with Washington's education, both intellectually respected eachother. Their conflict was political. Indeed, DuBois in late 1890s sought to get a job at Tuskegee. DuBois, as a matter of fact, congratulated Washington on his speech.
Consequently, DuBois didn't even have a problem with Washington's analysis, as long as, however, Washington did not prevent others from educating black people with a liberal arts education and allowed black leaders to speak as they please. At the turn, of the century, however, and until his death, Washington, destroyed liberal arts programs and any others who attempted to administer another educational or political program (he cause Hubert Harrison to lose his job. BTW, Harrison was all the way in NYC). DuBois' critique on Washington was a direct and immediate response to Washington and his control over black institutions through having the auspices of white northern philanthropic institutions and the political backing of southern whites(Washington, secretly, of course,tried to use his money and political influence to desegregate trains). In other words, DuBois response was a reaction to the historical specificity of the moment, the conditions of black people, the relationships among black leadership, white supporters, and the black masses.
Interesting stuff. I would lastly say that these people, as we know, but sometimes we don't appreciate, lived in the belly of the beast..especially Washington....yet, black folk in northern cities were catching hell...Now, i would argue that we're catching hell now, but not like during slavery and jim crow.
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Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 07:07 pm: |
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Thump, I don't believe DuBois's theory had much if anything to do with skin color, could you bring on something to support that statement or is it an assumption on your part? |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 07:20 pm: |
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Sorry Thump, Yukio's post must have hit the board before I "refreshed". I didn't mean to belabor a point. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 26, 2003 - 08:29 pm: |
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Hello All,
Carey you didn't belabor the point at all. I would have said the same thing about supporting my position. Actually, I'm kinda mad at myself for running off at the mouth for as long as I did because now, I'm going to have to read the book to find it. Even though I'm knee deep in books, including one I just started titled Seed by Mustafa Mutabaruka (which is excellent so far). I promise by this time next week, I will have read that book and will either gloat or concede the argument. Fair enough? |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 01:15 am: |
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Thumpah: The reason why I am so fixated on the "Stagger Lee" version was for purposes of infomation gathering. That is how I remembered the name being spelled, and that is the way I entered in my AOL Keyword to find out more about this character who was immortalized in song by Lloyd (Lawdy, Lawdy, Miz Clawdy)Price, among others. I couldn't have gotten this info so directly had I used the other spellings.
"Yukio:" You got me in some pretty good "self-educated" company there. LOL. Actually, I attended an excellent high school and completed 2 years at the University of Illinois before I was kicked out for spending all my time partying, and playing bridge in the Student Union.
akaivyleaf: I know where you're coming from about East St. Louis. I went to the U of I with people from there, and they were definitely southern in their orientation, as are folks from Cairo, Illinois. |
yukio
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 11:04 am: |
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Thumper,
DuBois' talented tenth thesis does not mention "color." As a matter of fact, it only pertains to the question of how black people would receive an education and what use would those with education have in that process. The thesis, if we can call it that, is espoused in "Of the Training of Black Men." if anything, the essay is limits education to men, although during the time, he also advocated the education of women. Now, the essay is a response to those that argued that blacks should only learn vocational education, which would enable them to work, rather than liberal arts which was only for white men and it was believed that liberal arts education could not help the race since thinking was useless when one had no money...lol.
Cynique:
Ok, i didn't know. In a response to Kola, you said that you were self-educated. Personally, i think we're self-educating ourselves when we leisurely pick up books to stimulate our minds and not limit our thought processes to formal education.... |
Chris Hayden
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 11:56 am: |
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Thump: as a matter of fact, DuBois encouraged the marriage of his daughter and Countee Cullen, who was dark skinned. He considered Countee to be the epitome of the perfect Talented Tenther.
A lot of speculation arises that DuBois was color struck because he always emphasised the European parts of his heritage (Dutch, French?) because he walked around with the Van Dyke Beard and gloves and Homburg, and because of nasty things he said about Marcus Garvey when they were in the throes of their battle--a big mistake on both their parts.
Booker T. did not fit his criteria because he thought that Talented Tenthers ought to go into the professions and Booker T., despite his own accomplishment, thought we would do better working with our hands.
About the colors of the females in movies,and videos and advertisements, yes, I have noticed that--but I don't think its just black directors making those choices, or the choices to lighten the skin of black women on the covers of those popular magazines, etc.
About Mary's comments about Berry Gordy, I have to take them with a grain of salt, considering he cheated her out of her dough. Where he sought to create the crossover appeal was often in the lyrics and instrumentations--how do you explain the Temptations, Junior Walker, Edwin Starr, Shorty Long--true he didn't have no Howlin' Wolfs or Arethas on the label--but how many people did?
As to Diana Ross, you know them two wuz knockin boots, so the situation was not all based on her talent--I used to wonder why he put her out front, too--but look at old movies of the Supremes. Diana was the one mugging, smiling, winking at the audience--Flo might have been able to sing better but Diana had the personality. |
Cynique
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 01:14 pm: |
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Yukio:
You're right. Reading books have educated me far more than the years I spent in school. And I'm certainly being educated about DuBois, thanks to your informative posts! |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 06:22 pm: |
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Thump, don't worry about it, we all get caught up into what we are saying and sometimes mis-speak. But if you do happen to run across something that supports your statement, gloat away, it won't be the first time *LOL*.
Now about Whoopie and her being picked to play the part of Celie. I have to disagree with your opinion that she would not have been picked had it been a black Director. This whole subject of picking light skinned women over darker ones is based on the premise that light skinned women are somehow more pleasant and acceptable looking than their darker counterparts. I could agree with your assessment had not the author painted a vivid image of Celie, of which Whoopie fell squarely within. In this instance it could not have been a light skinned actress. I know it's probably been awhile since you've read the book but who did you see as Celie or who would you have picked? It could well be that you also would have chosen Whoopie but are simply saying that maybe a different Director would not have. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 06:30 pm: |
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Hold up Thump, let me close up this hole before you jump straight through it *smile*. In reference to my statement that Whoopie fit my vision of Celie, I should have said the part could not have been played by an "attractive" light skinned women. Now, rebutt away *smile*. |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 07:52 pm: |
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Soul Sister
It's good to see that you are still hangin' (sorry Cynique *lol*) tough. So you done went and made yo'self a's reviewer huh, Well well well. Now are you going to start writing in that reviewer language. You know what I'm talkin' about. That say a little something that's so ambiguous that the author doen't know if they should cry or smile. That language that splits the baby so to speak. Most reviewers in my opinion seem to write to impress other reviewers and frequently never say if they liked the book or not. Anyway, as you can tell I'm not a fan of reviewers ( of Course Thump, you're excluded) but I'll be looking forward to reading some of your stuff. Keep on keepin' on and I still love ya.
Carey |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 09:34 pm: |
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Hello Soul Sister,
I totally forgot to respond to your post. As you may remember my computer crashed last fall and I lost everything, including email address. So if you would click on my name, that should give you my email address. *smile* |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 09:54 pm: |
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Hello All,
Thanks for the comments. But, as Carey pointed it out, I put my foot in my mouth, now I'm going to have to follow through with it. So, after Seed, its me and DuBois. Besides, I have an itchin' to read the Reconsidering The Souls of Black Folk book, which means I have to read The Souls first. It's all good.
Cynique: I'm sorry but your suggestion for the proper name for Stagger Lee is whacked. First, all that I'm able to find is the song lyrics along with which artist recorded the best version of the song. Which it should because that's the title of the song. Now, that don't tell me if Stagger Lee is really Stagger Lee or Stagolee or Stackolee -- the folklore. If Stagolee was a real person, where he's from, or anything.
Chris: Thanks for the info on Stagolee or Stackolee. I appreciate it and find it interesting.
Carey: No you didn't call Whoopi ugly. Come on Carey now, this is me, you ain't trying to tell me that there is no such thing as MISCASTING are you? *eyebrow raised* You know as well as I do, they would have made Celie pretty, and Mr. not as mean as he was written. Actually, Danny Glover played him kind of nice. And if truth be told, Danny Glover didn't look anything like the Mr. in the book. Adolf Ceasar looked more like the character Mr. as Walker wrote him. |
Thumper
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 27, 2003 - 09:56 pm: |
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Hello Carey,
I got a perfect miscast for you, one not that long ago either, Denzel as Easy Rawlins in Devil In A Blue Dress. Come on now, give it to me. |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 12:07 am: |
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Gee, Thumpah, for somebody who's always complaining about my comments being irrelevant, you do pretty good at making irrelevant reponses yourself. All of which proves that you and I just don't relate to each other. So be it. |
Thumper
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 03:19 am: |
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Hello Cynique,
At first I wasn't going to bother to address your last post, we already sound as if we're bickering, but you may have a point. The main point of the thread when I started it was to simply announce a few of the many new titles that will be published in the upcoming months. It has mushroomed into many different subjects which should have been individual threads. I apologize for that because it does tend to get confusing and makes the posts long as we try to respond to each different train of thought. I'll try to do better in the future. So you're somewhat correct.
But Gee, Cynique, ain't no need in gettin' mad at me. One of those irrelevant responses was due to your "distortion" statements concerning Stagolee. At least when I'm wrong, I try to admit it...*eyebrow raised* |
Carey
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 07:35 am: |
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Hello
It's good to see we all still love one another. Thump Brought out a very important point. When someone gets outside of the lines by posting comments that really does not fit the thread it tends to confuse and makes the posts long as each trys to respond to different trains of thought. I am guilty of doing that. Claxton, I'm sorry for doing that in your thread, I'll try not to do that in the future.
Thumper, you are also correct in saying that although Celie was suppose to be ugly, screenwriters always change charectors to fit their own needs, they do it all the time. Many people have not read the book in which the movie is based so it's really not that important when you think about it. But yes Thump, Whoopie would never win a beauty contest. Come on Thump, don't even try that Devil in a Blue dress thang *lol*. As I said it's good to see we all still love each other, if we didn't squabble every once in awhile THAT would be unnatural. And if Thump didn't put his foot in his mouth every so often I would begin to worry *smile*.
I've called all of my best sources and no one can tell me anything about Stagalee other than the song. |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 12:28 pm: |
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I aint made at ya, Thumps. As I said, I just got fixated on the name "Stagger Lee", mostly because the other versions of it sounded garbled to me. Actually, this is really much ado about nothing, isn't it? Rest in Peace, Mr. S. Lee. All's well, that ends well. |
Chris Hayden
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 02:35 pm: |
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Thump--you're right. When I read Moseley I don't see Denzel Washington as Easy. Who do I see--More Ivan Dixon, but maybe I'llthink it over some. I don't see Don Cheadle as Mouse, but he made a good one. |
Carey
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:30 pm: |
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Hello Chris
I thought Thump was trying to bait me into something on the Easy tip. I asked Ann about it and she said she saw Fishburn. I know his name comes up quite often but hey, the man has skills. She said Denzel is really too laid back for easy. She can't get with Denzel being the male whore that Easy is. Come on now, you know Easy will drop his draws when hearing any word that starts with "P". "hello my name is Easy....do you want to do it". Easy don't even need a bed. Remember that book in which he laid a little pipe upon meeting that teacher for the first time, that I believe killed her husband....Did it right on the school desk or was it the table ....*hiding behind my shoulders*). Easy even went to bed with Mouse's lady. Anyway, Denzel is too cool for that although he did turn some heads in Training day. I thought it was a so-so movie but Denzel took it to another level. So, Fish is more in line with her vision of Easy. Okay Chris, who is your mouse? Thump, I'll open the door, who did you see as Easy. I know you asked that question for a reason *smile*. But you're right, the casting very seldom fits the book, I have to give you that. By the way, how did that taste......your foot *LOL*.
But you know what, from what I've read on this board on the subject of The Talented Tenth, I think many of us should read the theory. Except for one, many of the comments on the theory are off line. Sorry but although many THINK they know what it's about err ahh...you're not alone. Hey, gotta keep it real.
Hey Chris, what about Delroy Lindo as Mouse? He played a hellava tough talkin' gangster in Malcolm X. I can't remember, what was that charecters name....anybody? |
Anonymous
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 12:55 am: |
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Delroy Lindo played West Indian Archie in Malcolm X. I thought Don Cheadle was great as Mouse. Danny Glover & Charles Burnett had originally optioned DEVIL IN A BLUE DRESS; but I think Denzel did a pretty good job [Laurence Fishburne as Socrates Fortlow didn't quite work for me]. |
JB
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, March 03, 2003 - 08:34 am: |
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First of Larry Fishburne as Socrates worked for ME. It was a wonderfull novella and a wonderful moive. Second, has anyone read or even gotten Christopher Chambers' new one A PRAYER FOR DELIVERANCE? Is it out yet (hardcover?) I wanted to hear an opinion, even tough I'm going to order it this weekend. I wanted to see what happened to the black female FBI agent. I saw Brian Egeston's review in QBR and he said it was kicking and damn scary. I am a former cop and wanted to see this. |
sisgal
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 09:33 am: |
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Denzel, Denzel, Denzel can play anybody, anywhere and he's still great! After seeing the movie, I can only see Denzel as EASY, and Don Cheadle, will forever be Mouse (who I think just took over the part and the movie). EASY, a male whore (hahaha...that was funny, but true, but he's sexy too!) I like his slickness, cool, calm character, and nobody plays cool like Denzel. Now Larry Fishburn, could have done Easy, but he wouldn't have looked so good! Nobody could have done Mouse better than Don Cheadle and right now I'm wondering what's wrong with Hollywood, this brother is HOT and a darn good actor too! Well, thats my two cents on it! |
Thumper
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Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 06:36 am: |
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Hello All,
I got some sad news the other day. The Lost Way Back by Nichelle Tramble will NOT be released this year. Look for it some time in early 2004. I still don't like Daddy Al.
JB: I read Chambers's A Prayer For Deliverance, the book was set for release in February. It was good. There were a couple of things that bothered me about it, but overall it was a good read.
The Souls of Black Folk: I started reading it a couple of days ago. More later.
Devil in a Blue Dress: I wouldn't have choosen Denzel for the simple fact he was too old to play Easy at that time in Easy's life. If my memory serves me correctly, Easy was still a young man in his 20s. Denzel was not. And Jennifer Beals do not look like a white woman nor could she ever be mistaken as one, which made the subplot of the book so good. All that to say, Hollywood will miscast an actor that is not suitable for a part. Do I have to bring up Oprah's The Wedding again? *big smile*
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Carey
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, March 05, 2003 - 07:54 pm: |
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Quit it Thumper, Quit it *LOL*. If my memory serves me correctly, and that is not always the case, did Nichelle set you straight on Daddy Al. Didn't SHE tell you what her feeling were about Daddy Al. I know it's hard for you to accept, and it's a tuff t.... but you are just going to have to get over it *lol*. How you going to tell the author about her own charecter gezzzz.
Another thing, nobody except you really cares how old Easy was suppose to be, so again, leave Denzel alone. And how many times am I going to have to hear about Jennifer Beals and that great performance of hers. When I first saw the movie, I didn't know she was black and it worked for me so what am I some blind black puppy *smile*. Again, get over it. Okay, lets hear how felt about Oprah's The Wedding. Maybe we should ask others to give their opinion first. Sisgal, Chris, Crystal, Tee, Sharon, Cynique, T -bone akaivyleaf and others what did you guys think of The Wedding? |
akaivyleaf
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 09:01 am: |
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I'll jump in with the wedding... I fortunately had read the book prior to seeing Oprah's rendition and my minds eye didn't see Halle Barry as Shelby.
I like Halle as an actress but Her range isn't as diverse to me as others want it to be. Halle did need to leave the drug scene and the string of B rated movies that she was doing at the time, but she still doesn't suit me as Shelby.
I just wish somebody would get it through Oprah's head that she's no actress. She did a fine job in The Color Purple, I'll give her that... but Beloved? Spare me. |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 10:41 am: |
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I didn't have a big problem with Halle portraying Shelby in "The Wedding." That's because neither the book nor the movie greatly impressed me. |
Carey
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 07:48 pm: |
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Hi Akaivyleaf
Thanks for responding. Hey, was it Oprah or was it the movie? As you've probably read on this board, some thought beloved was a great movie and others didn't. My opinion has changed over the years. I at first couldn't stand it, and would tell everyone how horrible a movie it was. I've since watched it again and my opinion has softened. As I've mentioned several times, the charecter Beloved just did me wrong, I couldn't stand watching her. I think that set me up to dislike everything about the movie which wasn't fair. So I watched it again about a month ago and you know what, it wasn't too bad. Don't get me wrong, it's not a great picture but it had it's moments. I didn't think Oprah did a bad job. I'm curious, what is lacking in her performance for you? People keep knocking Oprah's acting but I've yet to hear what aspects of her acting is turning them off.
Halle: I'm just so upset that Halle won the big award for a part that was so disgusting. Going to bed with a white man .....wait a minute...a redneck white man that had excecuted her husband, just mad me sick. He flipped and flopped her like a ten cents whore. I'm convinced that those that voted for her knew what they were doing in championing a role that portrayed her in such a negative way. Denzel's too, I'm not going to go on about it but DAMN, a nasty crooked cop, now come on, he could have been given the award in at least 4 other movies but they choose this one. No one can convince me that there wasn't some ulterior motives in the minds of the voters. You mentioned that Halle doesn't have range. Although I thoroughly hate the movie and the role, I have to admit that she showed range. I don't know Akaivyleaf, I think she does have range but you have to look over her entire career and look for the differences in each charecter to appreciate or find it. Unlike Denzels roles in which a full spectrum of emotions can frequently be observed in each movie. I don't believe it's Halle's fault, it's the roles she been given.....I think. Anyway, let me hear your take on Oprah, what is it she's missing? |
Carey
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 07:56 pm: |
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Hi Cynique
I know your not a big fan of Halle but tell me, why do you think others had a problem with her playing the part of Shelby? Some say she was miscast, who do you think would have been better for the part. Hey, did you ever see Adaptation or The Piano Player. I think it's you that likes comedys, do you plan on checking out Queen Latifa in her new movie, did you know she is the executive Producer of it? |
Cynique
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, March 07, 2003 - 08:47 pm: |
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Hey Carey,
Actually, I do like Halle. But I can see why others would feel she was miscast as Shelby. Halle is, in a word, "cute"; she has a cute little button nose and a cute little pixie hair cut. She's a not a cool, sophisticated beauty. As I recall, Shelby was more like an "ice princess." So maybe Vanessa Williams would've been a better choice to play her.
No, I haven't caught either "The Piano" or "Adaptation" yet. I have such good intentions about all these highly-touted movies when they first come out, but in the winter I just kinda go into hibernation and end up catching all of last year's hits on cable. So, no, I haven't seen these movies.
As for Queen Latifah's latest, the clips from it look hilarious! The plot of the movie certainly follows a tried and true comic formula. Latifah's been making the rounds on the talk show circuit to promote this movie, and, I must say, she handles herself very well, taking all of new mainstream fame in her stride. I did hear recently that she's the executive producer of this movie. I just figured she was recruited by Steve Martin for the movie, but maybe she approached him to be her co-star. All hail the queen. You go, girl! |
akaivyleaf
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 07:50 am: |
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Carey, Thanks for responding to my post. I'll jump in and give my criticisms of Oprah's acting ability. I personally don't think that she has range. She can play a down trodden woman, and she can do that quite well. However, I don't recall seeing her play anything else. Has she ever had a role where she wasn't repressed? She always has the same vernacular in all the pictures and that irks me for some reason. I just don't see variety. I see Oprah trying to be something that she's not. With other actor/actresses I see the person they are portraying more than I see them.
I don't know if I'm saying this well, my point is that I just don't think that she brings the characters she plays to life. |
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