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Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 834
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 01:57 pm: | 
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http://music.yahoo.com/read/news/61852568
Rolling Stone poll says YES!!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13041
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 04:19 pm: |
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I beg to differ. Rolling Stone readers are not tuned into the dulcent tones of divas from the past like Ella Fitzgerald and Billie Holiday and Sarah Vaughn. Aretha may be the loudest singer of all time but, unlike Patti Belle, time has taken its toll on Aretha's pipes, (whereas Patti still has the range and tonal quality to effortlessly hit those high notes.}
Furthermore, had this poll been taken by Down Beat Magazine, the results would've been different inasmuch as DownBeat focuses on jazz, just as Rolling Stone focuses on Rock and Roll and Rhythm and Blues.
You cannot proclaim a winner to the greatest singer of all times title when the voters are only from a certain segment of listeners. It's like comparing apples and oranges. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10221
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 04:35 pm: |
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I don't know if Aretha is the GREATEST singer of all time. But one would be hardpressed to cite a better singer's RESUME that is better than hers. |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 835
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 09:18 pm: |
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I think many people thought Elvis (?) was going to be voted the greatest singer, considering it was Rolling Stone. For my money, the greatest singers are on Broadway. Performing live eight shows a week requires a special kind of talent.
Like Stephanie Mills and Jennifer Holiday and Tonya Pickens ("Caroline or Change") |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 680
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2008 - 09:32 pm: |
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Hello All,
Why, HELL YES! Aretha is the greatest singer of all times!! It seems pretty obvious to me. After reading the article, Aretha and Ray Charles seem to be the only two selections right that I read. Naturally, these polls and lists are a matter of one's opinion, but the reality is that Aretha has sung the gambit, crossing musical genres as easily as one crosses the street while still maintaining the essence that is known as Aretha.
Cynique, you know I love you like a play cousin, but I have to disagree with some of your reasoning. While, Rolling Stone is worried about rock n roll, Aretha still deserves that title. First, Patti LaBelle is one of the LOUDEST singers ever! So, I'm scratching my head on that one. And Patti voice is showing its age, she is not hitting those notes, actually that same ONE high note, effortlessly. But, I'm not here to tear down Patti, but the truth is the light and I'm walking in sunshine. Truth be told, time takes its toll on everybody's voice, so you can't hold that one against Aretha or anyone else for that matter.
Now, the other singers you mentioned I love passionately. The first great singer was Bessie Smith. Bessie brought real feelings to her blues. Bessie wasn't about sounding pretty, but feeling, dare I say, soul. Next came Billie and Louis Armstrong. With these two, you don't get the prettist voices in the world, but you get the phrasing and timing. These two showed how flexible singing can be. Above all others they showed how a singer is truly a musician. Sarah Vaughan had perhaps the most beautiful voice ever recorded. She was a genius. But, Sarah's only down fall was that some of her material she knew she was better than and "played" to much with the song. You can tell when she would be bored and take the song to places where at times it should not have gone, just to amuse herself. I put Vaughan and Toni Morrison in the same category, because Vaughan sung like Morrison writes. Sure Morrison can tell the story using simplier language, sentences, etc; but she don't because SHE has to be entertained with her writing FIRST, whether you are or not, is irrelevant.
Ella, Ella is my number 2! I love Ella. Ella had that pretty, girlish voice and she used it for all it was worth. Her scatting...in my opinion she was the best. She's a marvel. But, no one can ever accuse her of being a "soul" singer.
Then you have those wonderful singers that you did not mention from the jazz world; Dinah Washington, Carmen McRae, Betty Carter, Cassandra Wilson (my girl), there are other genres that have great singers in them as well. Country has George Jones, Loretta Lynn, and the great Patsy Cline. Classical music has Caruso, Pavarotti (sp), Anna Moffo, Leontyne and the incomparable Maria Callas. But, who has sung all of those genres, and sung them well? There's but a few names that has even attempted to have sung in more than two musical genres. And when you look at it that way you get no more than a handful of names: Aretha, Ray Charles and probably Barbra Streisand. So can you give Aretha her props please! *big smile* Thanks! |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 7639
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 07:16 am: |
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She's the only singer whose work I wouldn't touch even if I thought my singing was all right. I'd be too intimidated to copy her work. There is no one (past, present or future) that can touch her work. I'd say that defines the greatest. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13045
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2008 - 12:19 pm: |
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I give Aretha her props because I like her myself. She came into her own during an era where music received a lot of exposure and a lot of production and she was ready for it. I would categorize her as being among the best, but as far as her being the greatest singer of all time, I don't agree because I shy away from the hype of absolutes. After all, some say Muhammad Ali was the greatest boxer and others say Joe Louis was, while still others think Sugar Ray Robinson was. Just depends on your criteria. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7534
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 10:40 am: |
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Aretha is my favorite female singer, but Sarah Vaugn or Ella Fitzgerald in their prime would eat her lunch, not to mention Grace Bumbry, Marian Anderson or Mahalia Jackson. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1352
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 10:58 am: |
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What are you talking about, Cynique. Everyone knows Sugar Ray Robinson was the best of all time *lol*.
Chris, you were doing just fine until you dropped Mahalia Jackson in the mix. But let me back up. "Eat her lunch"? You just wanted to stir some mess...right? You can't be serious!
Tonya, I agree, you don't mess with Aretha's songs unless you want to make a fool of yourself.
But I think y'all know that you don't spit in the wind and on this board you don't mess with Aretha. Did you notice Thump jump out of bed. The boy don't play that mess. You can cuss, fight, argue and show your ass but shine a bad light on Aretha and the man will cut you. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7538
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 15, 2008 - 11:15 am: |
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Chris, you were doing just fine until you dropped Mahalia Jackson in the mix.
(Compare Aretha's gospel album to what Mahalia was doing.
People in the gospel world were looking on Aretha to try to carry the Mahalia torch until she got "in the world")
But let me back up. "Eat her lunch"? You just wanted to stir some mess...right? You can't be serious!
(I couldn't be more serious) |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 3484
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 05:38 pm: |
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Laughing at this entire discussion. I love Aretha’s music, both the Columbia and the Atlantic recordings. In her formative years with Columbia, they did not know whole to exploit her talent to it’s fullest potential. But when she left Columbia and hooked up with the soul music producing guru, Jerry Wexler, that is when she became what we now refer to as the Queen of Soul. But the argument of who is the best singer belongs in the same simpleton classroom as who is the prettiest or most beautiful woman in the world. Singing is not the same as a bench-pressing contest or arm wrestling where the winner is clear and unrefuted.
There are average singers, good singers and outstanding singers. There is no clear-cut winner in any of the categories. Either you’re in the league or not in the league. So, I’ve never understood the purpose of such questions. Comparing Aretha to Grace Bumbry or Barbara Streisand is absurd. How can someone be more soulful than Gladys Night? Or sing with more clarity and range than Sarah Vaughn? How do you classify power singers such as Chaka Khan or Patti Labelle who can literally blow competitors off the stage? Can you confidently and accurately say that Dee Dee Bridgewater is a better singer than Diane Reeves? Was Carmen McRae a better singer than Betty Carter and Nancy Wilson? How do you determine who is better? Can Kathleen Battle sing better than Jessye Norman? And what is the criteria other than personal taste and opinion?
I’m not going to list any more names and make misleading comparisons because doing so would give credibility to such a specious absurd argument. You’re either running with the big dogs or you’re not. Singing is not a sit ups contest or base ball game with a clear win going to an empirically documented greater than number. E’nuff said…. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2008 - 09:06 pm: |
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Carey it was funny how Thump jumped in there outta nowhere :-)
Ntfs_encryption, of course we can say who is a better or the best singer; that is not absurd.
Your example of sporting events is not very strong; when we consider that the best fighter, team, or athlete can lose on any given day. Tiger Woods is the greatest golfer playing today -- but even he does not win every tournament. If you ever watch the NCAA's March Madness, you know what I mean. "The Greatest" on is not solely determined my ticks on a clock or a single win.
You can rank anything you want as long as define the criteria and method of measuring it.
You may decide to compare Dee Dee Bridgewater and Diane Reeves by vocal range, number of hits, number of musically genres spanned -- any number or combination of easily measured attributes.
Now you may disagree (or refuse to make the comparisons), but that alone does not make the comparisons invalid. |
Warmncozy
First Time Poster
Username: Warmncozy
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 08:59 am: |
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I can't believe that Frank Sinatra's name did not appear on that list. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13063
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 11:53 am: |
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Just another example of why this proclamation was flawed in its decision because it involved comparing apples to oranges.
BTW, I am also a big Sinatra fan. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1359
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 12:43 pm: |
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I don't know, Cynique. I have to refer back to Troy's post. Considering that apples and oranges are both fruits, your statement-analogy-comparison does not apply. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10224
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 01:07 pm: |
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There may be those who could sing as well. Certainly some who had their own unique impact and influence.
But what singer has made a more indelible mark on American SINGING than has Aretha Franklin?
I mean, almost all popular female (and many male) singers over the last 40 years are but fruit that has grown from Aretha's strong, lush and bountiful TREE. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13064
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 01:11 pm: |
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Oh? Does a delicious apple taste better than a delicious orange? It all depends on whether you like juicy succulence or crunchy tartness. Just as whether you prefer a soul diva or an operatic prima donna doesn't make one better than the other when taking an overview. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13065
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 01:29 pm: |
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Aretha Franklin did not exert that much influence on other singers. She is an "original", popular with listeners, but what singers made an attempt to emulate her style? "Soul" is a personal thing that comes from within. A singer either has soul or they don't. Aretha Franklin has nothing to with it. R&B singers just do their thing - like Mary J. Bilge. IMO.
Many of the jazz singers idolized Ella and Sarah and Billie Holiday because of their perfect pitch and skatting skills and lyrical phrasing. |
Warmncozy
Newbie Poster
Username: Warmncozy
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 02:00 pm: |
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Iwould add Al Jarreau to that list also! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13068
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 02:53 pm: |
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Al Jarreau is not a singer who brings "greatness" to my mind. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 3486
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 04:42 pm: |
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”Your example of sporting events is not very strong; when we consider that the best fighter, team, or athlete can lose on any given day. Tiger Woods is the greatest………..”
Troy, the analogy with sports stands. I used it because the results are clear cut and irrefutable. If I run a 9.4 and you run a 9.58 in the 100 meter dash –I win. I’m faster. If you bench 400 lbs while my best is 385 lbs in a bench pressing contest–you win. Your bench is better. Singing is not like that. Prove that Frank Sinatra is a better singer than Nat King Cole. Prove that George Coleman plays tenor better than Frank Foster. Prove that Ella Fitzgerald was a better singer than Sarah Vaughn or Max Roach was a superior drummer to Philly Joe Jones. PLEASE TELL ME YOUR UNIVERSALLY ACCEPTED AND STANDARDIZED BENCH MARK METHODOLOGY AND CRITERIA THAT CAN MEASURE THE SUPERIORITY OF ONE OVER THE OTHER IN THE AFROEMENTIONED. I would love to see and hear it. But I’ll save you the time –IT DOES NOT EXIST! It’s entirely subjective and unlike the analogy of sports -the conclusions can vary from person to person. If USC beats UCLA in a football game by a score of 35 to 14 –the winner of the game is not going to vary from person to person!
”You may decide to compare Dee Dee Bridgewater and Diane Reeves by vocal range, number of hits, number of musically genres spanned -- any number or combination of easily measured attributes.”
And to do so would be misleading, arbitrary, inaccurate and pointless.
”Now you may disagree (or refuse to make the comparisons), but that alone does not make the comparisons invalid.”
And making them have proven to be pointless (again), highly subjective and ultimately meaningless. You either can sing or play an instrument or you can’t. What is the point of dragging another person into the assessment for the sole purpose of elevating one over the other? As I stated before, either you are in the league with the big dogs or you’re not. Think not? Ok, then prove Sam Cooke was a superior singer to Jackie Wilson. Talk the talk –walk the walk. E’nuff said…. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1362
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 05:31 pm: |
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I've done this before and some didn't like it but....
Ntfs came strong. It appears he didn't apprecaite Troy's post that had the appearance of dismissing his. I've battled with Ntsf, the boy ain't no punk. I can't wait for Troy's reply. I sort of have a feel for what he might say. I understand what Ntsf is saying, I agree with him, however I think his post may be absent of one small detail of Troy's.
I'll not use the boxing analogy *lol* but this has the makings of a good wrestling match. |
Warmncozy
Newbie Poster
Username: Warmncozy
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 06:55 pm: |
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How about the following for "greatness" for Al Jarreau!
http://www.aljarreau.com/about/awards/ |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13070
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 09:32 pm: |
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OK. Al Jarreau does have an impressive resume and I'd agree that he's the current premiere male jazz singer - in an uncrowded field. I just never think of him as "legendary". |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2008 - 10:13 pm: |
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Google is so smart. We are talking about Aretha and now I see an advertisement for Aretha ringtones as I type this post -- brilliant
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Ntfs_encryption, I gave several examples of how one might objectively compare singers. It is not all that complicated. Many things you might view as objective really are not, we simply don't have the cognitive tools to discern the differences, but they are there nonetheless and they can be measured.
It is just like the face of a pretty girl. We may not describe the face as being symmetrical, but experiments tell us that people deemed the most attractive, have symmetrical faces. This fact crosses racial and cultural boundaries. We can measure faces and predict fairly reliably whether those faces would be deemed attractive.
The same goes for singers. We all know what a bad singer sounds, but we may lack the language to describe why. This too can be measured.
That said we all appreciate music for different reasons beyond the aural characteristics. This of course is personal and subjective. You may like one signer over another because their music was playing when you first fell in love. Which may have nothing to do with a given singer’s ability.
Back to the sports thing. Who do you think is the "greatest" 100 meter man? Is it irrefutably the guy who holds the world record?
Better yet do you think swimmer Michael Phelps is “greater” than Mark Spitz because Phelps had faster times? Would you take into account that Mark did not swim in as deep a pool, nor did he have the fancy swim suit, advanced training techniques, etc. Be careful using the stop watch as your only gauge to measure who is “greatest”.
At the end of the day Cynique's apples and oranges anlogy explains this best: whatever methodolgy Rolling Stones used to compile their list it WILL be different than how we would compile our personal lists. Therefore we will naturally disagree with it because we are comparing completely different things.
My point is that if one were really interested it detemrining who is that greatest on any number of dimensions it could be done.
But a simple poll is a lot faster and cheaper. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 3487
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 06:09 pm: |
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”At the end of the day Cynique's apples and oranges anlogy explains this best: whatever methodolgy Rolling Stones used to compile their list it WILL be different than how we would compile our personal lists. Therefore we will naturally disagree with it because we are comparing completely different things.”
Bro Troy, I agree. That is exactly my point. The Rolling Stones poll would differ from Down Beat’s or the AAJ forum or the Village Voice’s. But there is no such thing as the greatest singer. It’s like proclaiming the best looking woman ever or the best artist ever. Such specious polls and comparisons make great conversation and heated debates but in the end -it always falls flat because it is incapable of producing a factual answer.
”My point is that if one were really interested it detemrining who is that greatest on any number of dimensions it could be done.”
True, but only in the mind of the individual doing it. Outside of their personal opinion and taste –they could never prove their misguided efforts. Think not? Here we go again……Prove Elvin Jones was a better drummer than Roy Haynes. Prove Leontyne Price was a better singer than Kathleen Battle. According to you, some type of methodology exists which can clearly point to an irrefutable winner. You can prove that one is superior to the other (according to your contention). Well, I’m waiting to hear what this standardized and universally accepted methodology (that clearly measures artistic superiority of one artist over another) is. I’ll wait for your response…..
”But a simple poll is a lot faster and cheaper.”
True…….And a lot more inaccurate and misleading. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 3488
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 06:14 pm: |
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"It appears he didn't apprecaite Troy's post that had the appearance of dismissing his."
Wrong Carey, I don't take these things personally (like you do). Troy gave his opinion and I just differ with it. That's all. The brother has been very civil and intelligent about his position. I can appreciate that. It’s just two people giving different opinions. That’s all. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1374
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 08:26 pm: |
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Well Ntfs, it "appears" as if YOU took my post toooooo seriously.
You know how this goes, huh, maybe you don't. Maybe you couldn't resist doing what YOU do, huh, maybe that's what it is...seriously!
Jump out of those hate clothe, you're on fire. It appears that you are burning up inside. Take it easy my brotha, cool out...geez.
Do YOU man! Be content with what YOU write. Can you do THAT or will it continue being...(like you do!)?
Jack up your slack. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 08:34 pm: |
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Ntfs_encryption, my Brother, OK it does not sound like we are actually that far apart:
Consider the poll did a few years ago: Favorite 50 African American Authors of the 20th Century: http://www.aalbc.com/books/thebestauthors.htm this list like any other poll of it's type is open for debate. Some, mostly literary types (who probably did not cast votes) thought the list was laughable, still others used the list as reference to check out authors they were unfamiliar with. This list generated a lot of traffic and discussion; so I get why lists like this are generated. I have no illusions that this list is "accurate".
In any case, Ntfs_encryption, I think our only point of contention is that I believe one can reasonably rank anything (even authors), in a quanitfiable and objective fashion -- no matter how subjective the objetcs being compared may appear to be. It may may be expensive and time consuming to do it, but it is possible.
The standards you requested from me would need to be developed. As far as them being a "universally accepted methodology" (or at least acceptable by you, is another barrel of worms :-)
Think about the US News and World Repor's ranking of the nation's business schools. Now a business school is a much more complex system than a singer, but serious attempts at ranking these institutions are made.
One can argue about the methodology. However if a completely different body ranked the universe of accredited business schools using an independently devoloped model I suspect they would arrive at a similar list (compare BusinessWeek's rankings).
Do you think the business school ranking are "laughable" or "absurd"? They hold tremendous weight in those communities. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 683
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 08:46 pm: |
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Hello All,
Oh no yawl didn't...trying to call me out. *LOL* I should be on the board more, but I am having the damn-dest time getting unplugged from politics. It started with the election and now, i am utterly fascinated by US politics. Man, how did I not know that US politics was the best damn soap opera going...and that just from the things that are said or written about in public. So, I've been going between Huffington Post, Politico (Republican bastards, the whole lot of 'em), Wonkette and CNN.com. When I get home, I switch the TV from CNN to MSNBC....for hours! I have got to fallout of this sh_t thats for sure.
Anyway, yawl know I don't play games with the Queen. I don't see what the problem is with her being crown the best singer. Hell, she should have been crowned the Queen of Rock n Roll a long time ago, but Rolling Stone magazine was waiting for that great white hope female singer to tack that title on and they finally came to realize that that white woman who could outsing Aretha was never going to get born.
Cynique: I don't know why you're trying to burn down my playhouse in the middle of a thunderstorm? *LOL* Why, it defies logic! *LOL*
First off, this is not the first time that Aretha has been given this sort of distinction: She was the first woman inducted into the Rock Hall of Fame; In 2000, Time magazine named her as one of the 100 most influential artists in the 20th century; VH1 did a similar poll and Aretha was named as the top female singer in Rock n Roll then. And really, so to say that she is not influential is silly.
Frankly, it will be easier for you to find any recording artists from the 1960 to the present who can state that they WERE NOT INFLUENCED in some way by Aretha. After Aretha really hit, Ella and Janis Joplin tried to sound more "soulful". Joplin said in an interview that besides Billie Holiday, Aretha was the best chick singer ever. In a 1975 or 6 Playboy interview Streisand said that she wished she had Aretha's voice and range. Chaka Khan has said that Aretha was her ONLY vocal influence. Lena Horne was said lamented that she wished her father was a preacher and she was raised up in a black baptist church so that she could sing like Aretha. Need I go on. I don't know anybody who calls themselves a true singer who hasn't at one time or another taken a course in Aretha 101 and 102.
Have you ever heard someone sing a song after Aretha? Once Aretha has sung it, its pretty much over with the song had been branded by Aretha. Even the original artists are messed up. Come on, who's going to say that they prefer Otis Reddings version of Respect over Aretha's, even though Otis wrote it? Whenever you hear Until You Come Back To Me, its not Stevie Wonder that crosses your mind, its Aretha, even though Stevie wrote it. After hearing Aretha's version of Son of a Preacher Man, Dusty Springfield started using Aretha's arrangement instead of her own and Dusty was the original recording artist. Then have you ever heard singers sing songs that Aretha made famous and attempt to cover them? There's no comparsion because you think back to Aretha's version. For example, that Celine Dion, that style stealing heifer, ever hear her version of A Natural Woman? Ever hear Patti LaBelle trying to sing Aretha's Sparkle? And then look at how many years have to pass before any other singer ATTEMPTS to cover any Aretha song. Back in the 80s when Mariah Carey first came out, she use to do a passable version of Don't Play That Song, but that was almost 20 years after Aretha did it, ironically Aretha wasn't the original artist for that song either, The Drifters were, but who besides me and 10 other people know that? Aretha's Daydreaming been covered a few times by Penny Ford and that chick who left En Vogue. Then En Vogue did Giving Him Something To Feel, that video with them in those red dresses was off the hook, but the vocals...no. Hell, even Tina Turner tried to cover Aretha's version of Respect...a diaster.
Let's take a look at how many careers took off because of Aretha. Gladys Knight and the Pips was signed to Motown because folks didn't think that the Supremes were "soulful" enough. Natalie Cole first record was songs that Aretha had rejected including This Will Be. Look at how the musical landscape changed after Respect. Gladys Knight started having big hits, The Staple Singers started getting big hits, black female singers didn't have to sing cutsey like the Supremes to have major hits. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1375
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 09:22 pm: |
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*LOL*@ the whole world.
I don't want to say it but I TRIED TO TELL YAWL!
And see, what many of you may not know is that Thump pulled that information from his head. He didn't have to look around. If the man could die and come back, he'd appear as Aretha or her manager. I just hope it wouldn't be as Aretha because I've heard the man's voice...yicks *lol*.
Now, I am just going to sit back and see who walks into that! Yes sir...and when and if they do, am going to hire them to be my bodyguard because they don't know fat meat is greasy and maybe they'll stop a bullet for me.
Any takers?!?!? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13087
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 11:52 pm: |
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Just for the sake of argument, I stand by what I say about Aretha who wears the Queen of SOUL crown and does deserves credit for popularizing the "soul" genre. But generally speaking, she is just among the best of the best - in my opinion. And I still say that other singers were not actually influenced by her. Singers admired her great success and her tremendous talent. But any good soul singer doesn't imitate another. They make a song their own. That's what soul singing is all about.
Furthermore, all singers have the distinctive hits that nobody can mess with. Could Aretha do a good job on a Mary J. Blige song or an Anita Baker one? Could she top Patti LaBelle's "If Only You Knew?" Or Chaka's "Can't Nobody Love Me Better Than You" or Janis Joplin's "Take Another Little Piece of My Heart"? Etta James' "At Last" is her signature song. Could Aretha skat like Ella? Does her voice have have Billie's Holliday's sensual huskiness?
These "best-of-lists" are always controversial. After all, folks are still arguing about who's better between Michael Jackson and Prince.
For the past few years Aretha has really been getting by on her reputation. She sang 2 songs on "Dancing With The Stars" last night and it was sad to hear her struggle to stay on key and hit the high notes. But that does not diminish what she once was and I still luv me some Aretha piano-playin. I don't think the years have taken their toll on that. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1377
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 12:40 am: |
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Well Ntfs, after reading Thump's post and my reply to it, I thought I should address your post one mo'gin. You called me out and I asked my mother if was okay for me to go out a play.
Well.......
I can assume that everyone that visits this board knows what I do. Some laugh along and others stick me via voodoo dolls and tell me to Shuuuuuuuuut UuuuuuuuuPPP! I've wrestled with many, Troy and Thump included. Most come back and take it for what it is. I slap A_womon and Crystal AND I consider them as friends.
Some call me the instigator...okay, I do that. Yep, I try to "encourage" others to bring it on.
You said "it's just two people giving their opinions" and "I can appreciate that".
Your statement is true,you are correct, I think we all agree. However, within their words... those opinions, we sometimes feel passion. It somewhat speaks to the nature of the individual. They become invested in their words and the moment.
YOU seem to have a problem with MY words. I do what "I" do. Please do what "YOU" do best. I don't know you and conversely, you don't know me. So I am trying to understand (seek first to understand) if it's my words or me. I have an idea but that's for another time.
I am here, call me out and we'll see if I can come out and play. Hey, I like you. You bring variety to the table. I just don't understand!
Too seriously?....I think not. I am just another fool on a discussion board, saying and doing foolish thangs. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1378
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 12:48 am: |
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Looky here! Cynique came back strong. Girl, I have to give it to you, those comparisions was off the chain! You have me thinking. I truly wonder if anyone can cover the songs you mentioned. You took this debate to another level.
Woman, 5 stars-10 points!!!!!
You know I hate giving you props *LOL* but my hat is off to you. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 685
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:14 am: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: Yeah, just for the sake of argument...check yourself my dear. Let's pull out those old LPs of yours, cause I just hear the school bell and class is in session...
1.) Who said anything about imitations? You can be influenced by people without imitating them. Because no true artist appreciates another artist getting by on their sound or singing style. With Aretha, its not her vocal stylings alone that is influential, its the feeling or "soul" that she brings to her music that is the major influence, which other artist find the courage to tap into their own spirit to bring forth their own individual sound. With Aretha you know she's feeling what she's singing. What's the technique that she uses when she hits a note that perfectly relay an emotion, a note that while it is musically true can not be found on the piano. She is the ONLY singer that has done this repeatedly, example, her version of You're All I Need To Get By, after the second verse and the song goes into the chorus and she hits that note. Whew, you know exactly what she's feeling, expressing it with no words, just pure sound and emotions. And if that is not the meaning of real music, you need to pass my that crack pipe you smoking cause I want a hit too! As much as I love Ella, Ella did not, could not do that. As much as I love Chaka, Chaka takes the high notes of a cord and sings that part, but Chaka has never made me emotional or feel less lonely listening to her singing like Aretha. And lets not forget, its not an easy feat to cause people to talk in tongues and do the holy dance just from singing a song, and I aint talking about a church song either.
2.) While there is not a lot of evidence of Aretha scatting, she can scat. On her album Sweet Passion she does I Hear The Music/Mumbles where she scats. And while she did a little bit of it on A Rose Is Still A Rose album, I've heard her do more scatting in concert than on record, although not as much as Ella.
3.) Yes, Aretha can do any song, recorded by anybody she wants to...thats why she's the greatest singer. Obviously you haven't heard her duets with Mary J. Blige, Dont Waste Your Time (which Aretha killed Mary J., even Mary J. says that) and Never Gonna Break My Faith. Could she top Patti's If Only You Knew, hell yeah, easily! Funny you mention Joplin's Piece of My Heart, obviously you did not know that Piece of My Heart was originally recorded by Aretha's sister Erma Franklin. And Erma Franklin's version was a nice size R&B hit, which I take it YOU must remember since you was an adult at the time and I was just born. A bit of trivia, the first time year the Grammy Award expanded the R&B music categories, in 1967. 1967 was the first time the Grammy Awards present Best R&B Female Vocal Performance. Aretha was nominated and won for Respect (an award she would win for 8 straight years). Her sister Erma was also nominated for the same Grammy for Piece of My Heart. As far as I can tell, this was the only time in Grammy history that two sisters competed for the same Grammy. And actually, Aretha did cover a few of Erma songs, most notably The Pledge/The Clock record. I know you must have that one too. Aretha did cover Etta's At Last. On the marvelous 2 CD set that Rhino released a few months ago titled Rare & Unreleased Recordings from the Golden Reign of The Queen of Soul.
On CD 2 is Aretha's rendition of At Last, which was recorded during the Let Me In Your Life session.
Is there anything else? *eyebrow raised*
While these lists are a matter of opinion, there is no law against those opinions being...*clearing my throat*...INFORMED! *eyebrow raised* Still love you though. *big smile* |
Warmncozy
Newbie Poster
Username: Warmncozy
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2008
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:25 am: |
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"These "best-of-lists" are always controversial. After all, folks are still arguing about who's better between Michael Jackson and Prince."
Got to be Prince! |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:36 am: |
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R.E.S.P.E.C.T-respect ...please-please-please
Yawl know I hate doing this... **Jack Bennie pause**...well **Johnny Carson look to the right**... okay, that look you have on your face when you try to sneak off a little gas and it runs out of your behind with a horrible sound.
Yes, I hate doing this but, when Thump said school was in session I stopped and went to the kitchen and got me some kool-aid.
Dang, that wasn't fair. He did the mashed potatoes (old school dance) on Cynique. But listen, before anyone gets this twisted, they are friends. These two are old giants of the board. But did you notice that Thump, with his old crusty behind, likes to let everyone know that Cynique is older than him. Did you catch that? Anyway, when Thunder Thumper hit us with Aretha's sister, I stood up and grabbed my bible. I started cussin' in tongue ...I needed help.
But really, I feel like I'm peekin' in my neighbor's window. These two individuals that are fond of each other are getting it on. Now yawl know, Cynique loves ...Double loves a good debate ...you knows it. She's probably up in her kitchen brewing a pot of stew as we speak. I'm runnin' out to get some coffee and donuts. Who needs Comedy Central. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13089
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 12:36 pm: |
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 Actually, Thumper, I don't think dwelling on who can do a credible rendition of a song somebody else is famous for proves a whole lot. Think Jennifer Hudson and Jennifer Holiday. This point was something you mentioned and I went with. In retrospect I contend that the singers I mentioned can do just as an impressive a job of singing an Aretha hit as she can in trying to top one of their signature songs. (How hard is it to deliver a spirited rendition of "Respect"??)
And I ain't budging about the thin line between naturally-gifted singers being inspired by Aretha's fame and fortune as opposed to being influenced by her capacity to sing loud, an ability which to me is not something unique to her.
And I still resist the commerialization of declaring something to be "the best of all". There is certainly a school of thought where declaring absolutes is legitimately challenged.
I certainly have my favorites among Aretha's hits because I am not saying that she isn't great, but I close by adhering to the old familar standby many fans subscribe to which is that judging singers is like judging fruits; whether you opt for apples or oranges depends on what qualities coincide with your preferences. (To me, Aretha's diction can't touch the crisp intimate delivery of Carmen McCrae.)
Did I mention that lasagna and barbequed ribs are 2 of my favorite diet busters; I like them equally. But, then, that's just me. Now, excuse me while I ponder whether to listen to Charlie Parker or John Coltrane. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13092
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 02:28 pm: |
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I was so busy wading through all of the diversionary subtefuge of Aretha's awards and releases, that I forgot to ask has Aretha ever had an album that went to #1 on the Billboard charts??
Obviously I am not a connoisseur of Aretha Franklin so I can't cite examples from her recording repetory, the reason for this being that I don't love her singing technique enough to be a super fan and, this being the case, I can't be made into a "believer". I will give credit where credit is due. Aretha has longevity and this is because she is "one" of the world's favorite R&B singers. |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 686
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 04:10 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: Yeah, why don't you go and get something to eat. Don't forget your wet-nap. I'll play Aretha's Live at Fillmore West just for you. *big smile* She's not "one" of the world's favorite, she is THE ONE. BTW, she has never had a #1 album on the Billboard Album chart, on the Billboard R&B album chart, yes. She still has the number 1 bestselling Gospel album with Amazing Grace. I'm not going to argue with you anymore about Aretha because its obvious you don't know. *patting Cynique on the top of her head* Jesus still loves you though, boo. |
Disciple724
Veteran Poster
Username: Disciple724
Post Number: 213
Registered: 07-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:30 pm: |
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Thumper,
I have been quietly observing the post on this topic; you are flat out spot on concerning Aretha. The Best of All Times period, ain't even close. Even the best of Divas would easily concede. |
Disciple724
Veteran Poster
Username: Disciple724
Post Number: 214
Registered: 07-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:35 pm: |
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BTW,
look at the names she topped in the poll.
Besides Franklin, the only other living people in the top 10 were Bob Dylan at No. 7 and Stevie Wonder at No. 9. Marvin Gaye was No. 6, Otis Redding No. 8, and James Brown No. 10.
I'm out, back in stealth mode! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10235
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:38 pm: |
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You could argue and debate who is the better singer. That's very subjective.
But there is little argument against who is greatest singer when you combine the greatness of voice, the depth and breadth of artistry, longevity, cultural relevance and impact.
When you consider all of THAT, a rational person MUST concede that Aretha Franklin is in a class all by HERSELF.
Frankly, it's difficult for me to even ponder this question sans hearing Aretha triumphant voice soaring inside my head. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13093
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:43 pm: |
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At this point, I think it would be appropriate to note that if a person is a fan of an artist, what other people think or what trade magazines poll doesn't make any difference. It's not necessary to try and convince others that your choice is indisputable. It's YOUR CHOICE - your taste.
Soooo feel free to award Aretha 4 stars while, in the meantime, I'm just giving her 3. Right about now I could even check out some Sade, whose sultry style I like a lot.  |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3276
Registered: 01-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 06:35 pm: |
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I am leaning more towards 3 out of 4 stars for Aretha myself. Although I would have to say that Amazing Grace is my all time favorite gospel album. I am not even a church-going kinda gal, and there are times when I will play "Mary Don't You Weep" on continuous loop for 15-20 minutes or so. If "Wholy Holy" happens to come on while I'm driving, I dag near have to pull over until it's done.
But in general, I am inclined toward more complete performers--singer/songwriter/musicians. I know Aretha is also a pianist, but I have never gotten much of a sense of her talents there. Also (and please do not kill me Thumper, Carey, ABM and others) there is a certain quality to Aretha's voice that is unsettling to me. Sometimes it sounds as if she is straining. My voice can feel painful just listening to her. I wanna say, "Aretha, honey, bring it down a notch, take a sip of water, sister...or some hot lemon tea..." LOL
**Ducking**
Anyway, I hate lists like that. I mean--Bob Dylan? Really? He was a wonderful songwriter and he had a certain aura, but that man couldn't sing his way out of a paper bag.
BTW, Thumper--I have to say that Beverly Knight's version of "Rock Steady" on Prince's "Ingigo Nights" is absolutely chill-inducing. And the same bass line followed up immediately in the instrumental version of Zeplin's "Whole Lotta Love"? Just awesome! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13094
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:46 pm: |
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Right on, Yvette. I hear ya, Girlfriend, and I, too, have always done a little cringing when I'd hear Aretha straining for those high notes, making up in volume what she lacked in range. That's what I like about Patti LaBelle; her singing is effortless.
I don't think the current generation is that much into Aretha; they prefer Mary J Blige's brand of caterwalling.  |
Kandi_gyal
Newbie Poster
Username: Kandi_gyal
Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:15 pm: |
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Please. Big Ree Ree tig ole bitty azz is hardly the greatest singer of all time. ANYWAYSSSSS...... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10236
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:16 pm: |
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Yvettep,
I rate Aretha as the greatest not simply because of her voice. Chaka Khan and Marvin Gaye are probably my FAVORITE singers. And I am probably am as moved by Donny Hathaway's voice as I am by that of ANY other signer, male or female.
But what I mean is when you COMBINE her singing with her accomplishments, the LENGTH of her career, it's very difficult to find her equal.
Yes, at their peak, I probably enjoy Chaka's singing more than I do Aretha. But as much as love Chaka, I've got to admit that she does NOT have the catalog and has not left the indelible market on music that Aretha has wrought.
Now, however, here's one I'll toss into the mix who might ruffle some feathers, especially in THIS particular forum: Who over the last 40 years has had a BETTER and more, DYNAMIC and RELEVANT career as a singer, musician AND songwriter than ELTON JOHN? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1380
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:26 pm: |
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I think you gave us a hint ... "THIS", but off the top of my head I am going to say Stevie?
Can I have another guess; and this is purely a guess ...Billy Joel?
Wait, Barry Manilow? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13096
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 06:09 pm: |
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I see where PEOPLE MAGAZINE has come out with its annual sales-boosting gimmik, the issue which proclaims the "sexiest man alive". It awarded this year's honor to Hugh Jackman. And if PEOPLE says Jackman is the sexiest man alive, then that makes it so. Right? Any ladies who don't agree with this choice should just stifle their preferences and go along with what they're being told. Unless of course they choose to ignore what mavens of pop culture dictate. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13097
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 06:16 pm: |
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Say whomever you please, Carey. It's not like there's a "right" answer. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3279
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:40 pm: |
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ABM--Do. Not. Get. Me. Started.
I am a huge EJ fan and have been since I was a teeny bopper. I have only seen 2 other artists in concert more times (Prince and EWF). |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1381
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 08:26 pm: |
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I have to look at his post a little differently, Cynique. He did a nice job of setting parameters. He included a few qualifiers. The list of candidates gets real slim when you consider his question. Songwriter? ...well, nope he's gone. Musician? ...nope couldn't even whistle, she's gone. Singer? ...maybe-sometimes-not usually, gone.
I hear what you are saying, Cyniques, but this will at least narrow the field and tighten the arguement. Sure, some will cry "foul" but I would like to hear the name. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13101
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:29 pm: |
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I can't believe that you think there is a "correct" answer to the question posed by ABM, Carey, and that what this answer is won't be known until he eithers reveals it or confirms that somebody else has gotten it right. You are apparently mesmerized and more gullible than I thought. 
Whoooooooo is the Oracle that will proclaim the name of "the woooooorld's most musical everything"?? Did Orpheus, come down from Mt Olympus and whisper the name of the chosen one into the ear of a mere mortal? Or did a bible of show biz conduct a poll of its followers? Egads!
If such a fantastic illustrious artist has been determined, the answer should be obvious... or is it, perhaps, all a matter of opinion.  |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1383
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 02:46 am: |
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Well, Cynique, I've been called worse. But look, right or wrong I wanted to hear his opinion. Yep, there's no prizes for first place. I know, there's no first place, but let the man get his roll out. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13103
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:31 am: |
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In inviting others to submit their favorites, isn't ABM saying that Elton John is the artist who measures up to the guidelines he mentioned and is his choice??? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 12:14 pm: |
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In the finals of an Olympic track and field events, the finalists all come to the same line.
It goes without saying that Elton John would be considered a finalist.
So yes, Elton John fits the quidelines. That's my point. He at least qualified his question ..."HIS QUESTION". |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13105
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 12:52 pm: |
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So what are you waiting to hear, Carey??? ABM's answer - which he has already given because it is his choice.
In praising the guide lines don't you think the source of this "final answer" which you are anxiously awaiting to be revealed should have also been named? |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 687
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 02:33 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: Still at it, huh? Boy, when Yvette gave you that cosign it did you a world of good. (Yvette-we'll talk about that one a little later...*eyebrow raised* *LOL*) Your debate against Aretha as the Greatest Singer was weak, at best. I left you alone when you began repeating yourself, which is usually the sign that your argument has run out of steam, but you refuse to give up the ghost anyway.
Now, class is back in session and since Cynique got a 2/10 on her last pop quiz (1 point because I'm feeling a little sorry for her and gave her a point for spelling her name correctly on the paper), the lecture will be directed at her. Aretha's other accomplishment should be taken into consideration as well: one, her piano skills are impeccable; two, her songwriting skills are never given the credit it is due. Daydreaming is one of the best songs Aretha has ever written, followed in a close second by Dr. Feelgood, which is a blues standard. I'm thinking right now of Aretha's sister Carolyn who NEVER gets credit for being the bomb songwriter either with Angel and Aint No Way, classics. But, it is painfully obvious that black female artists are never called singer-songwriters! It's like to recognize their songwriting skills would crush the image that they are not as intelligent or creative to rank with the men...what bull! So, I'm kind of shocked that Cynique did not use this line of attack to counter ABM's views. Because, from the beginning stage of the recording industry black female singer-songwriters are responsible for some of the major staples that American music has. Bessie Smith wrote some of her songs, so did Alberta Hunter. Billie Holiday, Dinah Washington cranked out more than a few hits. Ella Fitzgerald wrote or co wrote over 100 songs. Then there's Aretha, Chaka wrote more than a few of Rufus's hits. Then there's Nina Simone, Barbara Mason, Betty Wright, etc. So, as much as you protest, I ain't NEVER seen Patti Labelle sit down and play ANY instrument to perform ANY song that she wrote and sing it (screaming and rolling all over the floor notwithstanding), but I have seen Aretha do it plenty of times. *eyebrow raised*
As a matter of fact, black male singers are seldom given the singer-songwriter title. I have always loved Elton John and give him much praise. Stevie Wonder, although he fits all of the criteria that ABM laid out, I would not rank him as high, for the simple fact that his singing style is 90% Donny Hathaway. Donny not being ranked as high in the RS poll was a crime, because Donny changed how male R&B singers sing FOREVER. His influence is now permanent! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13106
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 04:31 pm: |
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Oh puleeze. Get your shorts out of your crack and find a willing student to try and "school", Thumper.
Unlike you, I don't need to convince others that Aretha Franklin is NOT the greatest singer of all time! I already said that it's your prerogative to believe this but you can rant until times get better and show off all of your superfluous knowledge about your favorite subject, and you will not change my mind. What about that don't you understand????
It is my opinion that Aretha established a niche for herself in her prime and now she is the sentimental favorite of many in spite of the fact that others can sing circles around her. Nuff said.
BTW, what I appreciated most about what Yvette wrote is that it was cogent and succinct and minus the histrionics. And I didn't feel the need to counter ABM's choice of Elton John because, in keeping with my philosophy about absolutes, I happen to think that Elton is ONE of the best in the category that ABM described.
Now carry on. As the young folks say. "Talk to the hand". |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 688
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 06:29 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: Play cousin don't flatter yourself. I don't know anyone, ANYONE, capable of changing YOUR mind. It's like me climbing Mount Everest, yeah it's there but what's the point, I gotta better thangs to do. Don't hate me because of my "superfluous knowledge". I'm seeing shades of green on your side of the room...
Just don't want to concede that you lost the argument. That's alright, BooBoo, I know that you know that I know that you been knowning how you knew but didn't realize that what you knew past years worth of knowing it and that if I asked you about tomorrow that you would forget all that you knew that I knew that you knew and that your years of knowing it is not only defeated all practical purpose of knowing but that you would soon forget what you once knew... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13107
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 08:10 pm: |
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You really have a problem with not being able to impose your will on other people when it comes to Aretha Franklin, don't you, Thump-Thump? I don't happen to think she is the best singer of all time and you are pissing on yourself because you can't force me to see things your way.
You're going off on tangents, assuming that I am not familiar with all this stuff you're spouting about Aretha, convinced that I am jealous of your knowledge when, in fact, anybody who was around during the 50s and 60s already knows all of this trivia about Aretha and the other singers you mention. Back then we didn't have videos and CDs and we gobbled up any info we could get about our favorite artists from the radio and the covers of LP albums and Jet Magazine. You ain't telling me nothin new, and that includes the esoterica about Bessie Smith who my parents were great fans of. Puleeze. (And, incidentally I did know that Carolyn Franklin recorded "Take Another Little Piece Of My Heart" before Janis Joplin did.)
Just because I don't think she's the ultimate singer doesn't mean that I don't dig Aretha, but in your little cookie-cutter world apparently everybody has to think like you because you get your jollies from your lame attempts at "schooling" people. Gimme a break.
And your little digs reveal how petty you really are. Lay off the sauce, babe, and get a life. BTW, have you ever heard of - what's her name - um, Whitney Houston???? No, I didn't think so. Now dry your tears and run along. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1387
Registered: 05-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:32 pm: |
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*LOL* ....AND ....*LOL* again!
Ahhh, Ooooweeee!
This has been like a nice pot of oatmeal. You start with the dry oatmeal--(poll). You add a little water--(fans). Then you shake in a little salt--(the results). Now the pot starts to boil--(OPINIONS)!
If you don't watch out you might get burnt. Thangs start falling on the stove. Some get out of the kitchen and go watch cartoons. Others see a fine oppurtunity to add a little sugar and butter. But er'body don't like brown sugar in their oatmeal. So they want to add their special mix to the pot. You know what they do? They rename the oatmeal to Dey-spill. Yes sir, one pot, mo'cooks.
Then, others realize the heat is a little too high and decide to sneak by and turn the fire down a little. But it's too late, the stuff is starting to stick the the sides of the pan and it's getting thick. The kids are in the other room laughing their A** off. Now this just strokes the fire and the aprons come off. Now it ain't about the oatmeal--what oatmeal? It's about yo' nasty fingernails and the fact that one hadn't washed their behind in a week.
Lawdy Lawdy! It went from baby this and boo that to Fk that and you know what you can do with this *lol*.
Friends come by and say "you right girl, forget that N***ER". Then the cook (who's HOT) says "yeah ...YEAH, I knows I was right and let me tell that fool another thang or two. The friend walks away and can be heard saying, I tried to tell her.
It's became apparent to all that this meal was never going to be eaten. The cooks were now butt naked, standing in the kitchen, exposing all their wrinkles.
A stranger walks by and asks them what they are doing and in unison they say ......NUT'IN'.
They'll kiss and makeup and come back for another dance.
Thumper's Corner, Ya gotta love it! |
Thumper
Veteran Poster
Username: Thumper
Post Number: 689
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 10:58 pm: |
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Hello All,
Cynique: as the young people of TODAY would say...WHATEVER! |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1388
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 12:18 am: |
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Stop it, Cynique. Ya gonna run out of stars. You might want to save some for your own posts *wink*. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13109
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 12:07 pm: |
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As they bob their heads in time to a Mariah Carey cut on their IPods, Thumper, who will the young people of today be directing their "whatever" comment to? Me or you??? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13110
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 12:16 pm: |
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You are who needs to give it a rest, Carey. Your rap-up was off-the-mark, as usual, since you are totally clueless in regard to the nature of the friction that has always existed between Thumper and me. We are "frenemies who have never really bonded. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3280
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 01:29 pm: |
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LOL! Where the heck is Robynmarie? She lights a grenade, throws it into a crowded room, then departs the scene, whistlin dixie, huh? LOL
Thumper, thanks for the lesson on Aretha's songwriting and musicianship. I'll give her a fresh listen next time one of her songs rolls around my iTune shuffle playlist.
I'll throw in another name that hasn't been mentioned. Last night my daughters had a sleepover and chose "The Wiz" as their movie. (Daughter2 to guests: "You'll like it: It's like the Wizard of Oz--except with all BLACK PEOPLE!") I have to say after listening to snippets of that movie (for about the umpteenth time) that Diana Ross has to be right up there, just with the pure tonal quality of her voice. She wasn't necessarily a loud belter or anything, but the subtle shifts in notes, and the layers to her tones I do not think has been ever duplicated. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3281
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 01:34 pm: |
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Carey, one should always add dry oatmeal to the water, not the other way around. (Just FYI  ) |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3282
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 01:36 pm: |
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Now, back to EJ:
The Captain is alone at the top of his field! LOL |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13112
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 02:08 pm: |
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At risk of being repetitive I will say that just because I don't idolize Aretha doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge her skills, and I remember the anecdote in regard to one of my favorites, a song she composed entitled "Call Me", which was inspired while she was in the airport and witnessed 2 lovers parting as the distraught girl kept yelling out for her boyfriend to call her as she boarded the plane. (Guess this was in the days before Aretha developed a fear of flying, along with her insistence of being paid for her gigs in cash money. Those 2 things alone are enough to make me appreciate her.)
But I digress. Yes, Diana Ross does have a sweet lush voice which was why Berry Gordy replaced Florence Ballard and made Diana the lead singer in the Supremes. But the rap on Diana was that her delivery had a nasal quality because she sang through her nose.
Right now I'm listening to "Singers And Standards", a cable music channel, as one after another, the great singers of our times render the classic ballads that music lovers have enjoyed down through the years and after having just heard a performance by Nancy Wilson I was reminded of what a smooth pure vocalist she is. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1390
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 03:24 pm: |
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Yvette, you are right, 1 cup of oats to two cups of water. Why didn't you tell us before we went to work .
Yvette, The Wiz is one of my favorites. Man, you brought back memories. Enjoy those moments with your daughter. We used to invite other children to the house and have a dancing and sangin' good time!
You had to love it when Evilean got flushed down the toilet. I don't want to start nothing like Brown Robyn did *smile* but the Wiz is in my top 10.
Yvette, test: Name that tune---"You know baby, 1-2-3, I love you baby honestly"..."Oh baby,love me right, let me love you till the daylight".
I know this is a gimme for any REAL fan. Rules: you have to know it or you don't. Let's see what ya got.
The study of that EJ Album cover could be a course credit!
Cynique, you know, I know about you and Thump but that's my version and I am sticking to it.
Hey, you had to draw Aretha's "call me" in the mix. That song can bring tears. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13113
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 06:47 pm: |
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"Cynique, you know, I know about you and Thump but that's my version and I am sticking to it."
In other words, Carey, your idea of being funny is making up fictional stories about people.  |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3286
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 07:13 pm: |
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Carey:
Oh
Oh
Sheila....
That song is sandwiched between "I Just Want to Celebrate" (Rare Earth) and the Eric More club mix of "I Like to Move It" in my iTunes Library. Thank you for playing the game, and please pick up your lovely parting gift on your way off the soundstage LOL |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1391
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 08:34 pm: |
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**Ding Ding Ding**
YOU ARE CORRECT! Yvette.
I knew that was way to easy (for a real playa); to many letters .
Okay, one more and we're done. This one is only for the REAL REAL REAL fans.
Name that tune: "Don't have to be right to be my girl, don't have to be cool to......"
Cynique: Of course that's what I do. Do you remember that Oatmeal? Well, I mix in a little truth with a little water and BAM "tiss funny Mc-gee"...well, I laugh. Ya gotta laugh at yourself sometimes---don't ya think? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13114
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 09:34 pm: |
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The answer to your quiz is so easy, Carey, even I know that it's "Kiss" by Prince. "Ain't no particular sign I'm more compatible with", etc., etc.
As for what-ever it is that you do, it has nothing to do with truth of humor. zzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1393
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 11:34 pm: |
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Well Cynique, for once this week you are right. The answer is "Kiss". Dang, I gotta tighten my game.
Speaking of game, you just can't let it go, can you. I wasn't going to say anythang but it's obvious your pain is rooted in the fact that Thump layed you out. You know his posts were witty, funny and filled with facts, you said it yourself. I know you like a good fight but that was like hitting a midget with a brick. You were in there but you got KO'd. Now there's nothing wrong with taking a hit, we've all been there. But this is Thump's house, he does this. You fought a good fight but it's time you go to your corner and take a bow. Let it go, come back tomorrow night and try it again.
You should have taken a page from the book of your girl Yvette. Did you noticed when she came to the storm (your rescue) she told er'body to not hit her or throw rocks. She knew what could happen. But nooooooo, you couldn't resist calling Thumper's name. That boy beat you like you stole sumptin'.
That's the truth and it may not be funny.
Now go to bed and get some....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13115
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 12:19 am: |
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Oooooh shut up, Carey. You're the last person in the world to give out advice the way you get you azz reamed regularly. If anybody else other than you tried to make these points, it might carry some weight with me. The original question was whether Aretha Franklin was the best singer of all time. I disagreed. How is that making me lose the argument????? Everything else said about the subject was beside the point. I can't believe you folks that get so uptight about people not going along with your choices about something as controversial as who's the best at what. You're just mad everytime you do one of your round-ups every body has to chime in and correct that silly things you say. Puleeze.
Scuse me while I go back to my Spades game. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1395
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 01:11 am: |
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Cynique, I ain't going to bed until you Shuuuuuut Uuuuup.
Okay, the more I think about it, you've been right the entire time.
79 posts.... are we done yet!
Don't force me to breakout one of Thump's lines. You know the ones am talkin' bout.
Now go to bed. I bet you cheat at Spades. I know one thang. You ain't gonna lose. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13116
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 11:48 am: |
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Why are you worried about me going to bed, Carey? I'm a lady of leisure. I live around the clock; eat and sleep when I feel like it. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 3491
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 02:52 pm: |
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”It is my opinion that Aretha established a niche for herself in her prime and now she is the sentimental favorite of many in spite of the fact that others can sing circles around her. Nuff said.”
I think you and I are on the same page with this one Ms. Cynique. I saw (and yes, I did buy it) the recent copy of Rolling Stone magazine with Aretha rated as the number one vocalist. As I have maintained throughout this discussion –this is someone’s opinion. And contrary to the wishful thinking of others -there is no recognized standardized methodology or system that can establish a verifiable and accurate "ordinal ranking" of singers. IT DOES NOT EXIST! What does exist is a pantheon of super talented individuals. You are either in that league –or you are not! End of subject…
I happen to love Aretha’s singing. But I refer to her early Columbia recordings and her years with Atlantic when she was under the tutelage of Jerry Wexler. THOSE ARE THE QUEEN OF SOUL YEARS. But unfortunately, she has waned. Same goes for Nancy Wilson. I love her early Capital recordings (the one session with Cannonball Adderly is a tour de force of taste and artistry). I have quite a few although you have to wade through a number of mundane commercial efforts. I saw her at the Monterey Jazz Fest this past September and she was…..well….let’s just say her better years are way behind her. Never thought I would see the day when someone would walk out on this established elegant diva. But I did -it included this writer also. E’nuff said….. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 3492
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 02:57 pm: |
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”I can't believe that Frank Sinatra's name did not appear on that list. “
Neither could I. But it clearly proves my point of how flawed, pointless and meaningless it is to compare and rank singers.
”Just another example of why this proclamation was flawed in its decision because it involved comparing apples to oranges.”
Thank you……. |
Ntfs_encryption
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Ntfs_encryption
Post Number: 3493
Registered: 10-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 03:02 pm: |
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"Well Ntfs, it "appears" as if YOU took my post toooooo seriously.
You know how this goes, huh, maybe you don't. Maybe you couldn't resist doing what YOU do, huh, maybe that's what it is...seriously!
Jump out of those hate clothe, you're on fire. It appears that you are.............."
Yawn................ |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 13120
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 05:35 pm: |
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Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1402
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 08:04 pm: |
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Hello
There's a song by the Ohio Players, it goes, "it's all over, it's all oooover" |
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