| Author |
Message |
    
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3127
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 11:26 am: | 
|
...some college presidents think it would be a good idea:
College presidents from about 100 of the nation's best-known universities, including Duke, Dartmouth and Ohio State, are calling on lawmakers to consider lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18, saying current laws actually encourage dangerous binge drinking on campus.
The movement called the Amethyst Initiative began quietly recruiting presidents more than a year ago to provoke national debate about the drinking age.
"This is a law that is routinely evaded," said John McCardell, former president of Middlebury College in Vermont who started the organization. "It is a law that the people at whom it is directed believe is unjust and unfair and discriminatory."
Other prominent schools in the group include Syracuse, Tufts, Colgate, Kenyon and Morehouse.
But even before the presidents begin the public phase of their efforts, which may include publishing newspaper ads in the coming weeks, they are already facing sharp criticism.
Mothers Against Drunk Driving says lowering the drinking age would lead to more fatal car crashes. It accuses the presidents of misrepresenting science and looking for an easy way out of an inconvenient problem. MADD officials are even urging parents to think carefully about the safety of colleges whose presidents have signed on.
"It's very clear the 21-year-old drinking age will not be enforced at those campuses," said Laura Dean-Mooney, national president of MADD.
Both sides agree alcohol abuse by college students is a huge problem.
Research has found more than 40 percent of college students reported at least one symptom of alcohol abuse or dependence. One study has estimated more than 500,000 full-time students at four-year colleges suffer injuries each year related in some way to drinking, and about 1,700 die in such accidents...
Full story: http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/08/18/college.drinking.age.ap/index.html |
Libralind2
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 1089
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 01:00 pm: |
|
If you can lay your life down for this country at 18....
LiLi |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7319
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 02:16 pm: |
|
They may as well. Everybody who wants a drink has had it by the time he's 18. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12730
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 19, 2008 - 03:34 pm: |
|
They should also urge the legalization of marijuana, too. After all, what fun is college if you can't smoke weed and get drunk??  |
Libralind2
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 10:45 am: |
|
Well..they should
LiLi |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:45 am: |
|
Hello
Li-Li & Cyn-Cyn, explain to me the connection between going to war and opening the door to a potentially harmful addiction. I just don't get it. How does harming others while driving drunk relate to war? I don't understand the arguement, we have to fight wars but we don't have to neither let nor encourage our children to engage in self-destuctive behavior. We have a responsibility to protect our young adults...and yes, sometimes from themselves.
The arguement that they already do it is exactly the point. They already indulge in behavior that shows poor choice. They already do what...drink...and....**shrugging** |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7328
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:54 am: |
|
Li-Li & Cyn-Cyn, explain to me the connection between going to war and opening the door to a potentially harmful addiction
(If they gotta die let 'em die high) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12736
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 12:16 pm: |
|
Oh, enough with the lecturing Carey. And where's you're sense of humor?
And what's so hard to understand about the argument that has to do with if you're old enough to fight in a war, you're old enough to buy booze. This is the same argument which brought about lowering the voting age from 21 to 18.
And like legalizing marijuana will make drug converts of kids. Those who are inclined to smoke it will find a way to get it so why not decriminzalize the sale of it. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 12:31 pm: |
|
Stop it Chris *lol*.
Look, here's my point, ponder this: If we were talking about others drugs such as Herion, Cocaine and "X", would we still feel the same way? Fact: Alcohol is a more dangerous and destructive drug than Herion. Does anyone wish to dispute that. I can assume such information gave you reason to pause.
The physical and mental effects of alcohol dwafts that of herion. Not to mention the economic destruction of society at large. Again, ALCOHOL is like the USA being compared to Haiti, a mismatch along several lines.
So, should we just open the gate to all drugs or look deeper into the real issues. Alcohol was banned in this country for good reasons but of course ignorance and greed shot down those hopes.
Look at the parties on both side of the issue. Distributors(drug dealers) vs Ignorites,.....Money people vs addicted (blinded)people. Insurance Agencies & victims vs Money & ignorance (denial) ......War vs ????!
Who is really argueing for "WHAT"? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1043
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 12:41 pm: |
|
Cyn-Cyn, you cease to amaze me with your off-base analogies. What the hell does voting have to do with behavior that kills and mames?
No Cynique, I am not going to do this with you today....you can't make me, you can't make me *lol*.
Don't Cyn-Cyn, what's funny about war and drugs.
War.. Drugs..Death....."voting"? We're talkin' practice .....practice..*wink* |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12738
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 01:06 pm: |
|
I'm glad I've ceased to amaze you, Carey. It ain't my fault if I don't say what you want to hear. The point is is that if you can lay down your life for your country at age 18, then you are entitled to all of the rights that accrue to those who are over 18!.
And surely you don't think that keeping things illegal stops addictive personalities from getting their fixes.
If what I say makes you mutter and seethe, who cares? You need to learn to be a peripheral thinker instead of a linnear one. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 05:35 pm: |
|
Weeeeeak!
"And surely you don't think that keeping things illegal stops addictive personalities from getting their fixes"
Cyn-Cyn, you're so cute, bless you.
Your question is filled with so many holes I refuse to step in them. However, since you're thinking for me or know what I am thinking, tell me, what do I think about "addictive personalities", STOP.....I'll tell you. That phrase is has no validity in my thinking. Look, I don't know anyone that is predisposed to become addicted, it's a roost. I do know that limited access is simply that, a limit to the exposure and therefore usage. Of course you will not address this point so I am done with you. If you've bought into the addictive personalities theory I encourage you to shake it off and move around. You're are hurting yourself and my Linear thinking  . Talkin' about running around with blinders. How can you use your peripherals, you're blind, stuck, in denial and unaware....move ....quick, time ain't on your side *LOL*. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12740
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:26 pm: |
|
Puleeze. I take a psychiatrist's word over yours any day, Carey. And it should be obvious to anyone that there is such a thing as an addictive personality; it not only occurs in drug or alchol usuage, it happens also in gambling and food intake. People become addicted to video games and and porn movies and to sex. Addictions abound. And there is a certain type of person who is prone to addictions. But of course this doesn't register with a linnear thinker like you. Get real. |
Libralind2
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 1093
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, August 20, 2008 - 11:46 pm: |
|
Carey..you not being realistic. They are driving drunk NOW. They are binge drinking NOW. They are smoking weed NOW. They are taking prescription pills..they dont have a prescription for NOW. And what Cynique said above.
LiLi addicted to a game called 10'0
"Im gonna win" |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1048
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:09 am: |
|
What's that big word that describes two women and one man getting it on. I've always dreamed of such but......
Anyway, Cyn-Cyn & Li-Li.....hey, that sounds like a Chinese vollyball team. Anyway, let me see if I can make this real simple. Li-Li, you know I have a special place in my heart for you but since you've been riding with Cyn-Cyn, I have to ticket you as well.
Easy now......who are "they"?
Slower now....**thank you Kitty** If I am not mistaken, Yvettes opening post was addressing that very issue.... "WHO" and "WHY"... "IT"(drinking)(drinking laws) should be changed.
Okay, now that we are back on level ground....**get closer to the screen**....
Your "they" does NOT include everyone! AND the following cannot be debated because it is a FACT, lowering the drinking age WILL reduce the aforementioned problems of the opening post!
Some will continue to drink, that is true BUT the FACTS will remain the same, it will be illegal to drink underage (whatever it is) and therefore reduce the availablity, period, it's a fact. Both of you can change the issue to fit your arguement but I am simply addressing the original post.
Li-Li, your continued use of the word "NOW" meant what??? Lets slow down one more time...if the driving laws change from 75mph to 60....RIGHYT NOW...and the police pulls you over for driving 75...RIGHT NOW...you might get wise sooner or later and start driving 60mph....RIGHT NOW! "they" who didn't or who refused to obey the law, might end up going to jail RIGHT NOW!
Do you get what I am saying. We have laws, they are changed and most will obey, especially legal outlets that serve and sell alcohol , that's the world we live in. Sure there will always be lawless types but if we are to consider you and your driver's (Cyn-Cyn) take on the issue we might as well throw out all the laws.....RIGHT NOW!!!  .
Who said underage drinking didn't happen....I sure didn't.
Cyn-Cyn, I pitty the fool. You referenced the gutter profession of the medical field, wash-outs. And you still insist on moving the line. What does an "addictive personallity" have to do with changing the legal drinking laws??
Come back, you're drifting away. Because you make statements that have nothing to do with the topic it's hard to follow your reasoning.
Yes, people get addicted to various thangs **Shrugging Shoulders** and..? Tell me, is there a test for addiction prone-ness? I'll even go one better, if you or I pass this test, then what!? Okay, now tie this into the original discussion because I can't and I doubt you can either. You know what Cyn-Cyn, you and doctor Prone can/should patent that Prone-ness. But I can't see where it will do any good except give someone an excuse and a reason to be a damn fool. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12741
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:15 am: |
|
As I said, apparently you can only think on one level and in one direction, Carey. You've convinced yourself that what you say on this subject has more validity than those who challenge you. What are your credentials to challenge the medical profession? Why do you reject their facts and expect us to accept yours? I'm sure you think you have street-smarts and your personal experiences qualify you to pass judgment. BS. For every argument you come up with there's another street-smart person who will say you don't know what you're talking about. So take your comments and put them in the "opinion" file.
I'll try and make this simple for you. My reference to an addictive personality, vis-a-vis the cases in point, has to do with people who circumvent laws because their addiction-prone impulses drive them to get what they crave by any means necesssary, and many of these types even get an additional high out of breaking the law. By lowering the drinking age, you make legal what rebellious minors are going to illegally do anyway. It's about decriminalizes their behavior. This is part of the rationale of those who advocate changing the law. It's not something I'm rabidly enthusiastic about but, unlike you, I can discern where these advocates are coming from. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12742
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:22 am: |
|
I might add, that these advocates for lowering the legal drinking age to 18 are primarily concerned with how doing this will affect what occurs on college campuses. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1487
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:42 am: |
|
When I went to Syracuse, one could drink at 18 and even rent a car.
The first weekend on campus me and about 18 of my boys went to a frat (white) party. It was an annual celebration called "Beer Wars". Free beer was supplied for a 24 hour period.
I won't say that I remember all of the experience. But I do remember the bodies littering the lawn the next day. To a man we all threw up in various locations all over campus. There would be more experiences like this...
In hindsight I don't think the University should have allowed "Beer Wars" to take place on campus.
Now if kids wanna go off campus and get wasted -- that is one them.
I think the drinking age should be 18 -- espeically if an 18 year old can die for the country. I don't think anyone who does not enjoy the full freedoms this nation has to offer (including drinking) should be compelled (drafted) or asked to serve, and potentially die, for this country.
There are absolutely people more predisposed to addiction that others. Anyone who has lived a minute would have observed this fact.
The ages 18 and 21 are somewhat arbitrary, aren't they? Why not 19 or 24? Some people will never be mature enought to drink responsibly; others may be mature enought at 16.
If you are old enough to get married and maintain your own household, whay can't you be old enough to drink a brewski during Monday night football?
Carey I heard that noise about "Alcohol is a more dangerous and destructive drug than Herion."
I don't believe that for a minute. I've never been offered a $1 blow job from an alcoholic.
Perhaps more people die from alcohol abuse and related accidents, because more people use it.
I'll take a alcoholic over a dope fiend or crack head any day of the week. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10183
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:35 pm: |
|
Not being able to drink at age 18 = We don't want you randomly dying and killing other foks here in the U.S.
Being able to signup for the military at age 18 = But we don't mind you randomly dying and killing foks in OTHER countries. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10184
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:36 pm: |
|
Troy,
I'm just DYING to ask "So, how good was the $1 blowjob?"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3131
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 12:54 pm: |
|
Whoa--this little item generated more heat than I thought. Haven't caught up with all the details of everyone's responses yet, but I'll throw a couple more logs on the fire.
First, were I a cynical kind of person, I could suggest that the whole point of college presidents specifically getting on board with this idea is the twin desirability of (a) getting out from under legal difficulties involved with underage drinking on campus and (b) getting into the potential revenue-building prospect of campus events that include alcohol sales and/or sponsorship by alcohol companies.
I am not saying that these folks have only dollar signs in their eyes with this proposal, but I can't see how they can not be at least hearing a faint cha-ching in their ears. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10185
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 01:11 pm: |
|
Yvettep,
Interesting analysis.
And ain't that the American Way: If you can't beat'em, make money off'em.
HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3133
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 01:30 pm: |
|
Oops--I did say I had a "couple" of things to add, then only dropped one. OK, so--
...Second, I think what may be lost in some of the reporting is that the organization and college officials involved are not actually promoting a lowering of the drinking age, but encouraging debate about possibly doing something different.
I learned from the initiative's website that there actually is no national law that says states cannot have a drinking age lower than 21. Apparently the National Minimum Drinking Age Act "imposed on any state setting its drinking age lower than 21 a 10% reduction in its annual federal highway appropriation."
So there were probably other options and mechanisms that states could have put into place, but eventually everyone just raised the legal age in order to avoid the additional financial hit from the feds.
Finally, as someone who is fascinated by word origins, I enjoyed reading this from the Amethyst Initiative website:
The word Amethyst is derived from the Ancient Greek words meaning “not” (a-) and “intoxicated” (methustos). According to mythology, Amethyst was a young girl who incurred the wrath of the God Dionysus after he became intoxicated with red wine. Amethyst cried to Goddess Diana for help. Diana immediately turned the girl into a white stone. Upon discovering what had happened Dionysus wept, and, as his tears fell into his goblet, the wine spilled over the white rock, turning it purple.
The purple gemstone amethyst was widely believed to be an antidote to the negative effects of intoxication. In Ancient Greece, drinking vessels and jewelry were often made of amethyst and used during feasts and celebrations to ward off drunkenness and to promote moderation.
The amethyst is thus a meaningful symbol for this initiative, which aims to encourage moderation and responsibility as an alternative to the drunkenness and reckless decisions about alcohol that mark the experience of many young Americans. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3134
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 01:32 pm: |
|
LOL. Yes, ABM, that is an American tradition, yes? Again, though, I am not trying to imply that these college officials do not have the best interests of their charges at heart. But a lower drinking age could offer an attractive silver lining for many institutions... |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:00 pm: |
|
Hello
Alright now....the big dogs have arrived!
Troy, I am so glad you felt compelled to jump in.
Lets talk about your opinion on the alcohol issue, and how it relates to herion. I think you've made my point. I am not going to debate the word dangerous or give a definition, you know what it means. However, I have to ask or point out the dangers of alcohol addiction is not only more dangerous to society (you've agreed to that), the individuals the use the drug (alcohol), damages his body more than those that use herion, it's a fact, not an opinion. The drug alcohol, has more damaging effects on the central nervous system and brain than herion. Don't take my word for it, check it out for yourself.
Alcohol is simply cheaper (and legal) therefore, one doesn't necessarily have to sell their ass to get their drug BUT it too happens!
The "danger" you speak of may be from your own reference but the facts will remain the same.
Your beliefs are rooted in your opinion and just like when NFTS challenged you in another thread and you were able to define or give logical reasoning to support your claim, you will be hard pressed to do so in this thread, because you cannot dispute the facts and call them noise. Well, you can call them what you what but it then will become NOISE as well.
I doubt that you know the effects of herion...I doubt. You may know of "consequences" but not the effects while a person is under it's influence. I will assume and probably bet that if you stood in a room of 15 individuals, five under the influence of alcohol, 5 on herion and the others free of any substance, I would challenge you to discern the differences. Not that you are not an intelligent man, you may simply be without knowledge on some issues.
Yes Troy, more people die from alcohol than herion but it is NOT because more people use alcohol....that's a myth. Did you know alcohol withdrawal kills. It seldom happens in herion withdrawal....000001 percent. Facts Troy, not opinion or noise.
The point I've always been trying to make is that it's dangerous to equate the the "right" to vote or go to war and the "right....fullfreedom???" to engage in activity that could harm yourself AND others, financially and physically. It's a very dangerous slippery sloop. Troy....fullfreedom....what!? Full freedom to do what? Your statement implies that we should be allowed to do whatever we please, I know you didn't mean it in that way but tell me when should those freedoms be contained by laws? I'd like to be able to have the freedom to drive 100mph whenever and whereever I pleased, get my point.
Lets say I agree with the predisposed theroy/concept **I've lived a little" what do we do with it? But again, the word was used in such a vague manner it didn't relate to the issue. Look, as Yvette pointed out in an earlier post, there are many factors to addiction; social, economical,ignorance and even geographcal factors. Some even talk about generics, but **Again shrugging shoulders** whats your point?
Predisposed to do what!!?? ....change....hope...gain knowledge or stay in ignorance? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12743
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:38 pm: |
|
Pardon me if I take a cheap shot, but it's spelled "heroin", Mr Expert on the subject. And it's debatable as to what addiction is the most harmful. I don't think alcoholics get AIDS and HIV from sharing needles. I don't think cirrhosis of the liver is any worse than the hepatitis that plagues drug addicts. Above all, you can be a social drinker, but you can't be a part-time heroin user.
A reformed alcoholic suffers no greater after-effects than a reformed drug addict. And in a room full of addicts, I don't think you see alcoholics going into their "nod".
Furthermore, society frowns less on the stigma of alcoholism than on heroin addiction. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:47 pm: |
|
Another big dog has graced our room...Hello Yvette, see what you started *lol*.
I'd like to go back to your original post! In short it said colleges were concerned that the current drinking law encourage binge drinking, period. "I" agree with that and I assume others do as well. Again, as you've pointed out, other motives may be involved but......
I don't know how the discussion moved to the predisposition theory?
Thank You for your post on "Amethyst". |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12744
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:56 pm: |
|
Yes, Yvette, I loved your little amethyst anecdote. An amethyst is such a beautiful gem stone. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10186
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 02:57 pm: |
|
I read the entire article Yvettep's link references to. Yet I still can't quite divine how and why having a higher drinking again encourages more "dangerous binge drinking" than there would be if the allowable age were lowered. |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 408
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:18 pm: |
|
I read the entire article Yvettep's link references to. Yet I still can't quite divine how and why having a higher drinking again encourages more "dangerous binge drinking" than there would be if the allowable age were lowered.
Admittedly, I haven't read the article, but I'm guessing the theory is related to the coed room visiting/dorm-sharing policy and alcohol policy some colleges adopt. In short, the idea is that if you allow people to do something legally/without penalty, they will be less inclined to engage in dangerous behavior in the course of sneaking around doing it, trying not to get caught.
Case in point: When I was in college, some of my friends at other schooled marveled that not only could men and women stay all night in each other's rooms, but we could live on the same floor and share a common public bathroom (with showers and everything). We had dorm counselors, but there were no restrictions on visitation and no curfews. Contrast that with colleges where men and women have separate dorms and/or limited visiting hours. The theory (at my college and others), bluntly put, was that they'd rather people do whatever they were going to do in the dorm rooms, than have restrictions with punishment/consequences for violations, and risk someone dying as s/he tried to sneak out of a 4th floor bedroom window.
Same with alcohol. A student died from choking on his own vomit after a night of binge drinking because his friends were concerned that if they got medical attention for him, he'd get in trouble/expelled. So, instead, they told themselves that he would be okay. Well, he wasn't.
So...the theory goes that if folks aren't worried about consequences, they will do what is medically and socially responsible in cases of emergency. So at Yale (and other schools), students under 21 are forbidden to drink, but if you get caught, you won't be punished or kicked out (at least not for a first offense); you'll have to go to alcohol awareness classes.
So maybe, by extension, the idea is that if you allow younger students to drink, they won't undertake risky behaviors trying to sneak around, and in the event they get into trouble, the sober (relatively speaking) folks around them won't hesitate to seek help when needed. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12745
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:23 pm: |
|
Another claim is that if they decriminalize underage drinking, problem student drinkers can be eligible for government funded rehab programs. ??? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 10187
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:35 pm: |
|
Ferociouskitty,
Those sound like plausible reasons. Thanks.
And while I still am not sure lowering the age limit will result in a material decrease in "binge drinking" amongst college students, I do think that might help curb some of the harmful consequences, including those your describe.
It might have been helpful to readers of the article if its author(s) had provided some of what you wrote.
Otherwise, one can quite easily come away with the feeling that the colleges/universities are just trying to shirk some of their responsibilities. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1051
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:37 pm: |
|
See, Cynique, you forever open your mouth and nothing falls out but stupidity. Why do you insist on debating an issue you obviously...OBVIOUSLY know nothing about.
You wrote: A "reformed" (whatever that is, no one uses that term any more)alcoholic suffers no greater after-affects than a reformed drug addict.
Is that right!!!??? ......NOPE! Cyn-Cyn, what's your reference! You appear to be depending on your oun skrewed thinking. Stop playing yourself, someone might think you are foolish.
I am not championing either drug, they are both addicting. What I am saying is alcohol is a drug and has life threatening affects.
Again Cyn-Cyn, you've moved to soon. When does a casual drinker become an addicted drinker, who makes that call? That's the game that you refuse to see. They both are a desease as defined by the word. I will assume that you know nothing about what that implies or why they are classified as such and I'll suspend trying to pull your coat. I am sure you will look it up and maybe come to a greater understanding of the issue.
So one cannot casually use opiates? Have you ever taken pain killers" I can assume you don't know the difference between Herion and perscription pain drugs. Am going to pull you up on something.....there's little difference in most of them. See, you could be a dope head *lol*....really!
Expert.....? No, I am not an expert but I know more than you on THIS subject!
Cynigue, all addicts do not nod and if they do it's generally in an early stage.
Maybe you were trying to be funny but that was as funny as a bus load of dead babies.
Alcoholics get AIDS as well. Yeah, they stick their nasty d__ks in nasty P____s while they are nasty drunk or in another state of inhabition.
Are you supporting alcohol, am not supporting any drug. You appear to be saying drinking at an early age is okay and that alcohol is not a drug and if one is a binge drinker, they are not an alcoholic.....you would be wrong on all accounts!
Talk about something you KNOW!
And please, stop telling me what I am thinking, that gives you the appearance of some VOODOO fortune teller. For all I know you may look like one but.......... |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 409
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:42 pm: |
|
ABM:
I think the article neglected to mention those possibilities because I bet they couldn't get any school administrators to own up to this stuff on record.
What I described wasn't written policy. We were told this, as freshmen, by our senior counselors. And when I became a senior counselor, I told my freshmen, and so on. Basically, we practically begged them to call us (or 911) if there was even a remote possibility of someone being in danger after drinking. The idea was to save lives. It's assumed that all or most under-aged students will drink, so the best thing you can do is encourage them to drink responsibility and to keep them from dying when they don't. |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 410
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 03:49 pm: |
|
Oh, and a big obvious: The theory also goes that anything you de-stigmatize becomes less of a big deal.
Also, if you lower the official drinking age, you can then force those students to take alcohol awareness classes as part of their freshman orientation. As it stands, you can't teach kids about drinking responsibly *and* at the same time tell them are forbidden to drink.
It's sorta like condoms and safe sex. You can say to your kid, "Don't have sex...but if you do..." But as long as the drinking age is 21, colleges can't "say" this to 18 y.o.'s. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12746
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 04:20 pm: |
|
I better not yawn at your tripe, Carey, because it will make it easier to put words in my mouth as you try to add some substance to the crap you are grunting out in your lame efforts to explain how what I say appears to you. Trust me. How things appear to you are wrong since, as we know, you are a linnear thinker with no peripheral vision. 
And how do you know that I don't know some heroin addicts? You don't know shyt, unlike the other posters who are discussing this subject with some intelligence. Zip it up, dufus. |
Ferociouskitty
Veteran Poster
Username: Ferociouskitty
Post Number: 411
Registered: 02-2008
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 05:25 pm: |
|
College presidents from about 100 of the nation's best-known universities, including Duke, Dartmouth and Ohio State, are calling on lawmakers to consider lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18, saying current laws actually encourage dangerous binge drinking on campus.
53 hours later...
Zip it up, dufus.
LOL...maybe there can be awards for the threads that turn the fastest. We'll call them, the Whiplash Awards. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12748
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 07:57 pm: |
|
That is funny, isn't it, FK? What would we do with out your perceptive observations? What a refreshing relief you are from "Carey the Clod" who attempts to rebut my arguments with his opinions as if his vapid utterances carry some weight with me. There was pretty much a consensus of thought about the subject of this thread and Carey was the only one who was out of step because he stumbles along to his own drum beat. Thump, thump, thud. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1488
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, August 21, 2008 - 10:43 pm: |
|
ABM it was actually more like $0.85 (loose change from the ash tray) and it would defintely rank in the top 3.
Now I'm not saying I actually did this...I'm just saying... Something a typcial 20 year old dude in East Harlem might have done back in the early 80's...
-----------
Carey, it is interesting that you believe that YOU KNOW more than anyone else about this subject. That is a BOLD assumption.
You can believe what you want but I see crack heads every single day. This is not based upon "opinions" but observations.
Perhaps it is time for you to get off Wikipedia perform a little field work.
Crack is cheaper than an bottle of wine and the dealers are available at least 18 hours a day. The usage law is so sparringly enfoorces it may as well be legal: So your arguement that "Alcohol is simply cheaper (and legal) therefore, one doesn't necessarily have to sell their ass to get their drug BUT it too happens!" does not hold water.
And I know you can't possibly believe that women regularly sell themselves for a rum and Coke. That is obsurd on it's face. The average woman can walk into any bar a get a free drink from the average dude -- without having to go down on him.
Let me ask you Carey. Would you rather, your daughter spend a month smoking a vial of crack a day, shoot up once a day or drink a couple of glasses of wine a day? Pick one please. |
Libralind2
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 1095
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:12 am: |
|
Thank you Troy..and there you have it
LiLi |
Libralind2
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 1096
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 10:21 am: |
|
Carey, I cant believe you took a simple topic like underage drinking and infused it with..I cant find a good word..so I'll leave it alone. I also cant believe how your disrespecting an elder on this board..like you have. I apologize for Carey..Cynique
Respectfully
LiLi |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12749
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 11:28 am: |
|
That's right, Troy, put Carey in his place. He is always trying to school somebody and usually ends up having his lunch served to him. watta loser.
Thank you, Li-Li, for your concern. You know you one of my gurls. But I don't care anything about what Carey says. His desperate attempts to put me down just roll off my back, and I appreciate what a perfect target he makes himself for my ridicule. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1052
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:14 pm: |
|
Troy, you brought crack into the equation, not me. I was simply trying to make a comparison between the dangers of all drugs. There is a foolish belief that alcohol is okay. It seems as if there's some defensive behavior going on. I've constantly said that I am not championing any drug. I was just bringing alcohol up where it belongs.
My intent in addressing the original post was to support the opinion that Alcohol should be viewed as something destructive which it is, and regardless of the motives, the colleges need to be encouraged to change the laws and NOT listen to lame arguments! Now, if you and others wish to minimize alcohol's affects by bringing CRACK into the issue and by comparison cloud the addictive nature of Alcohol, that's on YOU and that would be BOLD and I would encourage you to look at the motives behind it.
Troy, as I previous mentioned, you did a great job defining and qualifying your opinion in another thread. Again, I am asking you to do the same here. So you've seen crackheads...... that doesn't cut it. But please, remember YOU talked about crackheads. Address your opinion or opposition to any comparisons I've made or statements that "I've" made. But check game: so you can buy crack (getting off subject) for 50cents and maintain a habit? (What's this bottle of wine thang?????). I doubt....no, I know that's not the norm and again it will not hold water across the board. The price of Alcohol is consistant.
Come on Troy, I thought better of you. I never said I knew more than anyone else, what was that about. I've only addressed statements posted on this board and those statements were not supported by ANY facts. They only served to minimize the dangers of Alcohol.
Shame on you Troy.....how does this sound, "would you want you daughter to be with a Rapist or a Child Murderer" do you get my point? Maybe you don't or won't!
Emotions can cloud right. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:22 pm: |
|
CYN-CYN
WEEEEEEAAAAAAK! Stop crying like a white girl!!
Spare us, you don't walk on white clouds. You run out in the road throwing rocks and then start crying when you get run over. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12753
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 12:44 pm: |
|
Who's crying????? Just another example of your deluded thinking, Carey. It obviously hasn't penetrated your thick skull that you are firing blanks when it comes to grazing me. I place very little importance on your boring repetitous marathon ramblings, half the time just skimming over them because reading them isn't worth my time. And anybody who thinks he's such an expert on addictions and can't even spell "heroin" needs to shut up. Either that or go somewhere and get your fix to calm you nerves. Puleeze.  |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1054
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:28 pm: |
|
There you go again, doing what you do best......nothing, just talking out of the side of your mouth, shifting the issue and crying. That's your splended glory.....
Would you please stand on something!!!
I am not officially classified as an expert and maybe that might mean that I am overpaid, BUT I well repeat, I know more than you! Face it, you know little or nothing on the subject. Anytime someone brings Psychiatry into the discussion of addiction their pants are around their angles and they are just like "The Kings And His New Clothes". Psychiatrist and Psychologist will be the first to tell you they know little about addiction/treatment and therefore do not generally treat individuals with this disorder.
Did you know that Alcoholism is a fatal desease? Because it is progressive, if not treated it kills. Thats why insurance agencys have to pay the bills just as they do for other deseases such as cancer. Hey, lets lower the cigarette age....it's a right...right? Let's lower the age for cancer.....
That's why it was obvious to me why you were offbase with you "addictive personallity" spill, that was somehow shifted to pre-disposition which is not the same. Of course this is going over your head because you bring nothing to the table except yourself and all your protective defenses. Defenses that blockout as well as stuff-in.
I have a passion you apparently have guilt.
Cry-Cry, cry me a river. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12756
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:38 pm: |
|
Is the above post meant for me, Carey? You need to be advised that unless you keep your comments short, you shit out of luck, babe, cuz I ain't reading all of your self-serving blather. YOu don't command enough of my respect for me to be an audience for all of your rambling pontificating about what you think you know and what everybody else doesn't know. You're just another opinion on this board and I rarely find what you have to say interesting. Now scuse me while I go back to my internet card game, an activity I really find fun and stimulating. Sorry I can't the same about you.  |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12758
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 02:45 pm: |
|
BTW, contrary to what you and the other bleeding hearts on the board think, I relish the idea of exchanging insults with you, Curry. Bring it on, babe, I can take anything you toss out. Just keep it short. OK? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1055
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 03:07 pm: |
|
That's a good one Cyn-Cyn..."bleeding hearts".
Okay okay, in short, you are a potato head *lol*.
Hey, what else could a couple of over-the-hill aging seniors be expected to do besides play cards and talk shit on the Internet .
You probably know nothing about cards either .
Are we done with this one? |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7343
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 04:33 pm: |
|
Somebody AXE me, dammit! |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1056
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2008 - 07:14 pm: |
|
*LOL*
Hey Chris, what do you think about the issue? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12759
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 07:51 am: |
|
Carey: n. a nonentity who thinks he knows more than psychiatrists and college presidents which explains why he ended up being such a loser. He has also been known to write love letters to himself and is a notoriously bad speller as well as an unoriginal thinker who labors under the notion that what is common knowledge to everyone else are ideas he originated. syn. boring. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1057
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 11:16 am: |
|
Thank You Cyn-Cyn!
I didn't know that, well, what page was that? I think they left out a few things, am a bike rider as well. I am about to ride my bike all the way to Illinois and get a haircut. Oh, am hungry as well, I think I'll stop by my mother's house and have a chat and a bite to eat.
Don't let me stop your card game.
BTW.........A DAY LATER?
You got up early in the morning to give us that....okay....Thank You. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1058
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 11:43 am: |
|
Cyn-Cyn, wish me luck, I am heading out. I will not be able to hangout with you today, well, I might stop by to see if you have added any more things to your list. Yeah, my spelling sucks!!!
Can I add a few negative about myself....I have a list of them? I can be lazy as well. Lets see, am a felon, am a flirt, I love chittlin's (don't eat them much anymore), am a loser trying to lose weight. Geez, I don't want to bore you but the list goes on and on. I give good tips though, I usually like to give my barber a 5 spot, the haircut only costs 12 bucks. I have to work on my tolerance and acceptance as well. The name of the game is cop and hold not cop and blow!!!
But thank you for the tuneup. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 7348
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 11:47 am: |
|
Hey Chris, what do you think about the issue?
(I don't think nothin about it.
I got da blooze!) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12764
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, August 23, 2008 - 12:08 pm: |
|
I really ain't interested in hearing anything else about you, Curry. I know you think you're some kind of a renaissance man but to me just a blow hard who makes monumental statements like alchoholism being a disease which can be fatal and think that you are telling us something, and how all of your accusations are based on assumptions because you assume that I have lived as long as I have and haven't come in contact with alcoholics or drug addicts and how in this thread you as much as anyone strayed from the topic in your ongoing quest to spead the gospel according to Cary. BTW, I don't suppose I have to tell you to wear a helmet while riding your bike because, of course, your thick skull provides built-in protection.
Not that it matters, but I got up early this morning because I had something to do. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1489
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 09:04 am: |
|
Carey,
I'm merely reacting to your statement a few days ago:
"If we were talking about others drugs such as Herion, Cocaine and "X", would we still feel the same way? Fact: Alcohol is a more dangerous and destructive drug than Herion. Does anyone wish to dispute that."
The thread was about drinking under the age of 18 YOU brought in Heroin, Cocaine, X. Now you gonna give me grief for mentioning crack; another form of cocaine?!!
Have you considered the FACT that many in the medicial field consider small daily consumption of alcohol healthy?
No one has disputed that alcohol abuse is bad, but anything taken to excess (including water) is bad.
At the end of the day I think it should be legal for 18 year olds to drink.
You may disagree but your reasoning is difficult to follow.
Your own reasonining does not even withstand the crutiny of your personal beliefs: So Carey would you rather me give you daughter a shot of Heroin or a Miller Lite? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1061
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 11:19 am: |
|
Okay Troy! It's obvious this issue cannot be debated via this medium. For example I was talking about the drug and not necessarily the user...the individual. You also mentioned the word excess, that is a key element.
To further illustrate the difficulty of debating this here, we have to consider the the first drink (pill-snot) and what happens in the middle. Again my effort was to show that we should not minimize alcohols effects. An addict (alcohol-pills-opiates) is classifed as one in his cronic stage, a drunk driver is one when he or she drives drunk.
You are good...your "Heroin or Miller Lite", on the surface would appear to hold weight but again, you are talking about user/quantity and not the drug. I can cloud the issue in the same fashion.....Would you want your daughter to drink a gallon of moonshine or take a Viacodin.
Stop talkin' about my baby .
At the end of the day I still think they should raise the legal drinking limit to 30.
I will take a person on an opiate any day over a person driving with any amount of alcohol in their system....think about it.
I think you have bought into some of the myths of all opiates. I did like you take on "excess", there is the root, key and answer.
Made you look, you dirty crook *LOL*. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12770
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 01:54 pm: |
|
Proceeding on the idea that becoming an alcoholic is a possibility of being able to legally buy alcohol, then why suggest that it should be made legal to buy at it any age, Carey?
As was observed by several posters, the rationale of those who advocate lowering the age to 18, involves many things, one being that passing such a law would make it easier to treat young people who become problem drinkers, many of whom are turned on by the idea of booze being forbidden fruit since it is illlegal. And keeping the age at age 21 doesn't deter the intake of it by minors.
All of the lamentations about the devastating effects of alcoholism and its comparison to drug addiction just clouds the issue.
I'm with you, Troy, when it comes to the low likelihood of a woman having to sell her body to buy a 40-ounce. And I still say that the much higher incidence of AIDS and HIV and hepatitis among drug users makes it more dangerous than drugs. Plus since alcohol is cheap to buy, alcoholics can keep a job. In my years of working at the PO it was a fact that drugs not drinking was what got most people fired. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 03:33 pm: |
|
Cynique wrote: "preceeding on the idea that becoming an alcoholic is a possibility of being able to legally buy alcohol, then why suggest that it should be made legal to buy it at any age, Carey?
Cyn-Cyn, don't....it's not about becoming an alcoholic, I was never talking about "an Alcoholic" I have also voiced my opinion around the drug "alcohol". See, when some hear the word "addict" they tend to think of the worst case, the end result. You have to asks yourself, what do you hear or think when you hear a person is arrested for drunk driving? I doubt that you hear "addict" but yet they may well be addicted to the behavior and the effects of alcohol.
For the uptenth time, I know both drugs are evil, they are the devil. I also know there is NO medical use or reason to drink alcohol. It is consumed for what reason? Think about it, it's swallowed to do what? Before you answer, look at the following:
Bud Light
Millers
Busch
Congac
Mad Dog
Rum and Coke
Whiskey
What does each of the above list have in common? You could make a joke and say they all will get you F**ked Up. But really, they all have alcohol in them and they are all made and sold to get one desireable affect.
Next list:
Percadan
Percacet
Dilaudid
Hydrocodon
Oxycotin
Heroin
Tylenol #3-#4
Morphine
Talwin
Vicodin
They all are opiates.
My point has always been that these drugs do less damage to the system than alcohol. Of course, like Troy pointed out, anything used in excess can be harmful. Then we have come full circle, warning signs explode when we hear the word "drugs" and yet forget alcohol is a drug.
It's a trap.... lead by greed, ignorance and denial.
You asked, why legalize it at all.....I personally would not, what's the purpose....what's the purpose of the drug????
Cyn-Cyn, lets see about your forbidden fruit theory. So, we should legalize anything that is forbidden so that....what?... what did you say.....one-mo-gin. No, please, don't waste our time...that argurment is so weak it couldn't bust itself out of a paper bag.
Did you know the drug of choice of many doctors and professionals is opiates?
Question....doctor on Ol'English 800 or Percadan...he has a knife in his hand.
18 or 21...I'll take 21 any day, why rush the confusion?
Carey
Carey |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12773
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 05:06 pm: |
|
I didn't say forbidden fruit was a reason to lower the drinking age, Carey. I simply explained the mind-set of vulnerable young people. "Forbidden" fruit is self-explanatory with "forbidden" being the operative word. You're so busy trying to do damage control to your ambiguous contentions that you have to distort other people's observations.
We could go on and on about which drug does the most long term and short term harm to the mind and body but since I don't consider you an authority on the subject, we'd be wasting each other's time. Suffice to say that not a week goes by that the FDA isn't recalling some prescribed medication that has proven to be a cure worse than the disease it is supposed to treat. In the meantime, any doctor will tell you that wine taken in moderation has great medicinal value. If he was around, Jesus would probably confirm this. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1069
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 06:15 pm: |
|
** Carey has the look of fear**
Cynique, I am outta here, you done brought Jesus into the discussion.
Ooouuuuweeeeee! I know you said you were a revolutionary but you done put us on the wrong battlefield....am gone! You better duck!!! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12776
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2008 - 11:52 pm: |
|
Satan, I command you to release this sinner, Carey.
Lord, I beseech you to cast out the devils that plague him and redeem his soul so that he can see the error of his ways.
OK, folks that's your exorcism for the day. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1071
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 10:56 am: |
|
Ouuuch, that hurt! But I feel much better, I just have to screw my head back on. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1072
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 11:29 am: |
|
Hold the press! I have to admit to an error.
Dang, I just read a few posts in this tread and realized I had some things wrong from the jump. I was reading an exchange between ABM and Kitty and was taken aback when I read the following:
ABM wrote: Yet I still can't divine how and why having a higher drinking age again encourages more "dangerous binge drinking" than there would be if the allowable age were lowered.
I had it wrong from the jump, I thought the college presidents were trying to RAISE the drinking age!!!
Now what do I have to say for myself???
Heck....ahhh...Cyn-Cyn is still a Potatoe Head and I still disagree *lol*. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3145
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 03:26 pm: |
|
Carey, you obviously have very strong feelings about the issue of alcohol and alcohol abuse. I totally understand this, as many many families have been torn apart by the alcoholism of one or more of its members. That is certainly something we all can attest to. I am making no assumptions about you, but your discussion of the subject reminds me of the virulent anti-____ talk of former abusers--Man, you do not want to get into a conversation about smoking from a former smoker! LOL (I repeat, though: I am not saying you are a former abuser yourself.)
I will not try to sway you from your opinions, because--as I said--you have a right to them and I completely understand them. But I do have to correct something I think you may be saying. It is not true that there is no such thing as a predisposition to alcohol abuse. Increasingly research in genetics, neurology and other disciplines reveals that there are some folks who are more likely to become addicts if they begin with a substance. Most of us, for example, have natural body responses that signal to us "STOP" when we are drinking too much: we get ill, we get dizzy, whatever. In some folks this natural defense does not seem to be present or operating effectively.
There have even been found specific variants of genetic markers that may be responsible for this. (Although much of this work is still early and there clearly are combinations of factors--including additional gene variants--that are involved.)
Sooooo, not to get all teach-y or anything, but the popular idea that some folks have "an addictive personality" does have some basis in fact. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3146
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 03:33 pm: |
|
Thumper, thankfully I have nothing to add to the subject of $1.00 or (85-cent) crack-induced fellatio. But I do know that on college campuses alcohol is frequently involved in the date-rapes, accidental falls off buildings and bridges, and various other mayhem and mishaps.
Because of the drinking age restrictions, a lot of this partying is pushed off campus. I do not know whether a lower drinking age would allow partying with alcohol to occur under more sane circumstances. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3147
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 04:14 pm: |
|
Sorry--above should be addressed to Troy, not Thumper! |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1076
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 07:12 pm: |
|
Hello Yvette
I always like your approach, it's smooth, it get to the point without a direct rebuttle of the preceeding posts.
Again, this subjects....these issue are hard to discuss in this medium. So much of the conversation is lost in translation. I will agree, there is a belief that some folks have " an addictive personality" however in the flow of this conversation I didn't see how it fit into the discussion. You defined your belief, you did a good job, yet, I think you will agree that a "predisposition" and "an addictive personally are not the same. Consequently the point was moot. Also, even if we are to use these markers, I think research and history will prove that they have nothing to do with Binge Drinking and the treatment of those involved in drug abuse. Ohhhh, it sounds good, it may give reasons but again, it does little to stop abuse......... incarcration, torn families and death are weak foes.
My passion does not come from being in the stream, it's rooted in seeing missteps of others and the limited exposure of the truth. Just as a man that sees a women being beaten by another and rushing to her aid, my passion on this subject is the same. Not that I have not been touched as am sure everyone reading this post has.
If I am wrong on everything I've said, the fight should continue without fear of rejection. I was going to see if anyone was brave enough to stand along beside me and you were strong enough to voice a negative opinion on the use and abuse of alcohol....Thank You.
Yvette it's obvious that you also have some knowledge of the issue, not saying you've been involved. I am thinking through your studies. So, when I hear someone use the terms above (Pre-) I can't help but hear excuses and loss of hope. From a medical standpoint, how can these markers be used as a preventive tool. Of course we are talking about addiction, a very misunderstood medical condition? From my studies, it's my opinion they have limited use, they sound good but.......
I am asking this not as a rebuttal but to gain knowledge. I'd be interested in results not theory! I KNOW the results. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1077
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 07:51 pm: |
|
See Yvette, you done got me started *LOL*. Just as you mentioned the dangers of talking to someone who is an ex-drinker or smoker, they same is ALWAYS apparent when talking to someone that drinks and are not interested in any facts that may shake them from their rooted.....entrenched positions, they will protect their "love" and beliefs at any cost, there is a name for that...... |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1078
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 08:32 pm: |
|
Okay Yvette, I am done after this laaaaaast post *lol*.
I think I am so adamant in my responses in regards to excuses or reasons/theories because I can think of other character behaviors that man has tried to define. Now I hope others don't flip this but Pedophilia and Homosexuality come to mind. Just two of many behaviors or desires that others have tried to define, either to persecute or stop. Some "professional" have tried to change anothers sexual desires saying it's deviate, abnomal and thus tried to change the individual. Is it a choice or are some individual born with a Homosexual gene. Whatever the reasoning, it does little to prevent or change ones motives or desires.
There are several "feelings" that propell us to do what we do. Science and theory will never be able to stop "feelings" and emotions, the onus behind everything we do!
In your last post I heard you knocking at the door *wink* but to drop credentails would not inflat nor deflat my position, it would only serve to give me a title...and then what? We can't make wrong right....right?
Doctor so-and-so said....
So-and-so, who is a speeker on the topic said.....
Ol'boy has a degree in......
So what.....wink |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12780
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2008 - 09:11 pm: |
|
Since I was involved in this debate, I would like to make it clear that I was not extolling the abuse of alcohol. Part of what I contended was that it is possible for people to use alcohol in moderation because not everybody's brain is wired in such a way as to become dependent on booze.
When it came to heroin, I argued that it was a more harmful narcotic than alcohol because, among other things, heroin is not a recreational drug but is, instead, one which indiscriminately hooks anybody who tries it.
The original subject of this thread had to do with lowering the legal age to purchase alcohol. I am inclined to support this idea because it would decriminalize the purchase of alcohol by the young people most inclined to break the law. It would also facilitate the proper treatment for problem drinkers. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1079
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 02:06 am: |
|
Cynique, GET OFF YVETTES JOCK! ......"wired in such a way as to become dependent on booze" ....WTF! Sooooo, if ones brain is "wired" right....right?....they will not become dependent on booze. That's what you said, now do you see how rediculous that is? That's like saying a person can resist the effects of a drug given to them prior to an operation. What you and others fail to realize or accept is it is not the person!!!
The "person" forfiets that choice...generally and usually before they know it. Then their pride and ignorance keeps them from moving in another direction.
Cyn-Cyn, I get mad at myself for even allowing you do take me here but your statements such as "indiscriminately hooks anybody who tries it" makes me want to holler. What you just said was even though someones brain may be "wired" right, if they try heroin they will get hooked. Come on Cynique, I am going to borrow a line from Chris....Sh*t or get off the pot. Am done with you and this subject, your arguements are baseless. DONE!!!!!!!!! Aside from that statement being false, it contradicts the whole premise of your post.
You are right Cyn-Cyn, I've been wrong all along. Your posts have made me look at the issue from a different prespective. Some people can drink and not get hooked and others can't! |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12781
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:13 am: |
|
I intruded on the exchange between you and Yvette, Carey, because you were implying that those like ME who opposed your points were advocating the "abuse" of alcohol. I refused to let you hide behind this claim. Sorry if I undid the tranquilizing effects of Yvette's charm. I have always admired and acknowledged her civility because she is able to tactfully dissect people's ignorance. Your inadequate response to her comments is an example of this.
Furthermore, you not only misinterpreted but misunderstood what I said. That's why you went ballistic and resorted to insults in lieu of a concrete rebuttal and, in desperation, invoked an irrelevant quote by that incorrigible curmudgeon, chrishayden.
I made a distinction between the effects of heroin and alcohol and you seem incapable of grasping the idea that a dependency on alcohol is a gradual thing among those who are prone to crave its effect but that this isn't the case when it comes to anybody who tries heroin.
And speaking of contradictions, your last paragraph is an example of how confused YOU are. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3149
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:39 am: |
|
Carey, you are right--I have recently been learning more and more about this issue because of some research I am doing. I am by no means an "expert"--whatever that means--and most of my knowledge still comes from my own anecdotal personal experience.
In my opinion most researchers doing this newer alcohol research based on genetic/biological/neurological and other such models would like to eventually see their work translated to treatment and prevention. But the research process is not a quick or easy one, and it will likely be a long time before there will be any direct benefit. What could happen in the shorter term, however, is a change in perception about people who have trouble with alcohol including the relapse issues they face. I think such changes in attitudes could be helpful. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3150
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:58 am: |
|
Carey--One more thing: I do not see understanding of a topic, or "reasons" and "causes" of a behavior as the same thing as "excuses" for that behavior. That's not to say some folks do not use knowledge of causes or associations to justify stuff. But that is on them, not the scientists who discover the associations.
I am not sure I understood everything that you were trying to get across in your last couple of posts. With my original posts I was really looking to start conversation on a few different aspects of the original story, not necessarily compare the relative drawbacks of different substances.
For me these issues are ones Cynique mentioned above:
1) What do we think about the possibility of lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18?
2) Along with that was this (to me) new information about the lack of true national prohibition against such a lower age. Might things have turned out differently had states kept the lower age but instituted other mechanisms to encourage responsible drinking behavior? Why didn't any states fight the federal government in this? Were other forces/political pressures responsible for this?
3) Why the particular focus on college campuses? Would a lower drinking age help or hurt with young people 18-20 who are not in college?
4) What might be some further benefits (and drawbacks) to colleges if such a change? Would it enable campuses to better control and monitor students' drinking behavior? Enable more effective treatment? Would the sexiness of drinking decrease if it were no longer illegal? Would it encourage more problem drinking? |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1081
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 11:59 am: |
|
You missed it, Cyn-Cyn. Re: My last paragraph, it was a white flag....I was throwing a bone in your direction.
I am sorry, I didn't mean to insult you. Please accept my apology.
I realize a good jab or poke at someone is cool and the lines can sometimes get blurred....I know I can get carried away. You don't do to bad yourself. You've always said you can take it as well as give it. You proven that *LOL*.
You are tuff and you spring back just like a good rubberband. I bet a man never told you that one *wink*. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 3151
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 12:00 pm: |
|
the tranquilizing effects of Yvette's charm
You sayin I'm putting folks to sleep w/my posts, Cynique? lol |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1082
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 12:11 pm: |
|
*LOL*....I don't know either, Yvette. You'd have to ask Kitty. She probably could write something on flippin' the script .
We should probably hire a doctor to figure out why Cynique and I have these marathon posts. Can you believe we go on for DAYS!
You guys do a great job of spreading us apart but the women is relentlous....did I spell that correctly....I doubt it . I love a good verbal fight and she obviously does too. She be cuttin' me and I feel compelled to cut back. Hey, who said you have to work in them.
Yeah, I knew where you were at from the jump. My hat is tipped in your direction.....Ms. Jackson if your nasty. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12783
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 12:13 pm: |
|
And here I go again, becoming the "C" in a conversation between "A" and "B" but since Carey thinks I don't know whereof I speak, I will reveal that I recently underwent heart bypass surgery and the pain I experienced during my recuperation was excruciating. I was given a bottle full of vicodin pain killers and a prescription for 3 re-fills. I started out popping these powerful drugs but soon realized how they were affecting my body and my mind so I quit taking them cold turkey, and just resorted to meditating and chanting to deal with my pain.
My point is, is that in my case, it was the person not the pill who was in charge. I've known several post surgical patients who resisted taking the morphine and codeine prescribed for them because they realized the potential for addiction, and among such individuals were my late husband and my recently-deceased brother who only gave in after they became terminal.
What made us different from those who succumbed to the seduction of these remedies? I like to think it had something to do with how our brains were wired. |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1083
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 12:30 pm: |
|
***Carey sits quitely and speechless in his room, he has been defeated*** |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12785
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 01:02 pm: |
|
Don't sweat it. Just go get you a half pint and a dime bag and mellow out. You're entitled. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 12788
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2008 - 02:54 pm: |
|
BTW, your post wasn't sleep-inducing, Yvette. But it was "sobering" - no pun intended.  . |
Carey
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Carey
Post Number: 1094
Registered: 05-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2008 - 02:46 am: |
|
Yvette wrote: "Carey--One more thing: I do not see understanding of a topic, or "reasons" and "causes" of a behavior as the same thing as "excuses" for that behavior. That's not to say some folks do not use knowledge of causes or associations to justify stuff. But that is on them, not the scientists who discover the associations".
Yvette--If I can borrow from your....One more thing: Thank you for stating your position or your frame of reference. Without tipping my hand, Terra Little is in "Corrections" she sees the results of abuse and addiction on a daily basis(she said that), I do too. When you agreed that some individuals (folks) use causes to justify stuff, you said what I failed to put into words. And yes, it's on them but unfortunately there are more in the struggle that use this arguement (excuse) to justify recidivism than there are "professionals" and scientists trying to discover the associations and therefore the beat goes on.
On a positive note, the "reasons" theory is also used as a tool to relieve some of the guilt and pain associated with individuals that find themselves in a seemingly unending downward spiral of substance abuse (it's not their fault). As you may well know, abuse takes no prisoners. A person's IQ has little if nothing to do with the process, just as a "smart" person cannot stop cancer. So reasons and causes has it's place, I agree and hopefully, as you mentioned, they will be used as a tool to prevent relapse.
So, my zealous passion on the subject is from my frame of reference as well.
I am sorry if I hijacked your thread. I will try to do better next time......TRY *lol*. |
|
Email This Page