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     Brownbeauty123 AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Brownbeauty123 Post Number: 2174 Registered: 03-2006 Rating: |
She's revered as a trail-blazing feminist and author Alice Walker touched the lives of a generation of women. A champion of women's rights, she has always argued that motherhood is a form of servitude. But one woman didn't buy in to Alice's beliefs - her daughter, Rebecca, 38. Here the writer describes what it was like to grow up as the daughter of a cultural icon, and why she feels so blessed to be the sort of woman 64-year-old Alice despises - a mother. The other day I was vacuuming when my son came bounding into the room. 'Mummy, Mummy, let me help,' he cried. His little hands were grabbing me around the knees and his huge brown eyes were looking up at me. I was overwhelmed by a huge surge of happiness. Rebecca Walker I love the way his head nestles in the crook of my neck. I love the way his face falls into a mask of eager concentration when I help him learn the alphabet. But most of all, I simply love hearing his little voice calling: 'Mummy, Mummy.' It reminds me of just how blessed I am. The truth is that I very nearly missed out on becoming a mother - thanks to being brought up by a rabid feminist who thought motherhood was about the worst thing that could happen to a woman. You see, my mum taught me that children enslave women. I grew up believing that children are millstones around your neck, and the idea that motherhood can make you blissfully happy is a complete fairytale. Family love? A young Rebecca with her parents In fact, having a child has been the most rewarding experience of my life. Far from 'enslaving' me, three-and-a-half-year-old Tenzin has opened my world. My only regret is that I discovered the joys of motherhood so late - I have been trying for a second child for two years, but so far with no luck. I was raised to believe that women need men like a fish needs a bicycle. But I strongly feel children need two parents and the thought of raising Tenzin without my partner, Glen, 52, would be terrifying. As the child of divorced parents, I know only too well the painful consequences of being brought up in those circumstances. Feminism has much to answer for denigrating men and encouraging women to seek independence whatever the cost to their families. My mother's feminist principles coloured every aspect of my life. As a little girl, I wasn't even allowed to play with dolls or stuffed toys in case they brought out a maternal instinct. It was drummed into me that being a mother, raising children and running a home were a form of slavery. Having a career, travelling the world and being independent were what really mattered according to her. I love my mother very much, but I haven't seen her or spoken to her since I became pregnant. She has never seen my son - her only grandchild. My crime? Daring to question her ideology. Well, so be it. My mother may be revered by women around the world - goodness knows, many even have shrines to her. But I honestly believe it's time to puncture the myth and to reveal what life was really like to grow up as a child of the feminist revolution. My parents met and fell in love in Mississippi during the civil rights movement. Dad [Mel Leventhal], was the brilliant lawyer son of a Jewish family who had fled the Holocaust. Mum was the impoverished eighth child of sharecroppers from Georgia. When they married in 1967, inter-racial weddings were still illegal in some states. My early childhood was very happy although my parents were terribly busy, encouraging me to grow up fast. I was only one when I was sent off to nursery school. I'm told they even made me walk down the street to the school. Alice Walker When I was eight, my parents divorced. From then on I was shuttled between two worlds - my father's very conservative, traditional, wealthy, white suburban community in New York, and my mother's avant garde multi-racial community in California. I spent two years with each parent - a bizarre way of doing things. Ironically, my mother regards herself as a hugely maternal woman. Believing that women are suppressed, she has campaigned for their rights around the world and set up organisations to aid women abandoned in Africa - offering herself up as a mother figure. But, while she has taken care of daughters all over the world and is hugely revered for her public work and service, my childhood tells a very different story. I came very low down in her priorities - after work, political integrity, self-fulfilment, friendships, spiritual life, fame and travel. My mother would always do what she wanted - for example taking off to Greece for two months in the summer, leaving me with relatives when I was a teenager. Is that independent, or just plain selfish? I was 16 when I found a now-famous poem she wrote comparing me to various calamities that struck and impeded the lives of other women writers. Virginia Woolf was mentally ill and the Brontes died prematurely. My mother had me - a 'delightful distraction', but a calamity nevertheless. I found that a huge shock and very upsetting. According to the strident feminist ideology of the Seventies, women were sisters first, and my mother chose to see me as a sister rather than a daughter. From the age of 13, I spent days at a time alone while my mother retreated to her writing studio - some 100 miles away. I was left with money to buy my own meals and lived on a diet of fast food. Sisters together A neighbour, not much older than me, was deputised to look after me. I never complained. I saw it as my job to protect my mother and never distract her from her writing. It never crossed my mind to say that I needed some time and attention from her. When I was beaten up at school - accused of being a snob because I had lighter skin than my black classmates - I always told my mother that everything was fine, that I had won the fight. I didn't want to worry her. But the truth was I was very lonely and, with my mother's knowledge, started having sex at 13. I guess it was a relief for my mother as it meant I was less demanding. And she felt that being sexually active was empowering for me because it meant I was in control of my body. Now I simply cannot understand how she could have been so permissive. I barely want my son to leave the house on a play-date, let alone start sleeping around while barely out of junior school. A good mother is attentive, sets boundaries and makes the world safe for her child. But my mother did none of those things. Although I was on the Pill - something I had arranged at 13, visiting the doctor with my best friend - I fell pregnant at 14. I organised an abortion myself. Now I shudder at the memory. I was only a little girl. I don't remember my mother being shocked or upset. She tried to be supportive, accompanying me with her boyfriend. Although I believe that an abortion was the right decision for me then, the aftermath haunted me for decades. It ate away at my self-confidence and, until I had Tenzin, I was terrified that I'd never be able to have a baby because of what I had done to the child I had destroyed. For feminists to say that abortion carries no consequences is simply wrong. As a child, I was terribly confused, because while I was being fed a strong feminist message, I actually yearned for a traditional mother. My father's second wife, Judy, was a loving, maternal homemaker with five children she doted on. There was always food in the fridge and she did all the things my mother didn't, such as attending their school events, taking endless photos and telling her children at every opportunity how wonderful they were. My mother was the polar opposite. She never came to a single school event, she didn't buy me any clothes, she didn't even help me buy my first bra - a friend was paid to go shopping with me. If I needed help with homework I asked my boyfriend's mother. Moving between the two homes was terrible. At my father's home I felt much more taken care of. But, if I told my mother that I'd had a good time with Judy, she'd look bereft - making me feel I was choosing this white, privileged woman above her. I was made to feel that I had to choose one set of ideals above the other. When I hit my 20s and first felt a longing to be a mother, I was totally confused. I could feel my biological clock ticking, but I felt if I listened to it, I would be betraying my mother and all she had taught me. I tried to push it to the back of my mind, but over the next ten years the longing became more intense, and when I met Glen, a teacher, at a seminar five years ago, I knew I had found the man I wanted to have a baby with. Gentle, kind and hugely supportive, he is, as I knew he would be, the most wonderful father. Although I knew what my mother felt about babies, I still hoped that when I told her I was pregnant, she would be excited for me. 'Mum, I'm pregnant' Instead, when I called her one morning in the spring of 2004, while I was at one of her homes housesitting, and told her my news and that I'd never been happier, she went very quiet. All she could say was that she was shocked. Then she asked if I could check on her garden. I put the phone down and sobbed - she had deliberately withheld her approval with the intention of hurting me. What loving mother would do that? Worse was to follow. My mother took umbrage at an interview in which I'd mentioned that my parents didn't protect or look out for me. She sent me an e-mail, threatening to undermine my reputation as a writer. I couldn't believe she could be so hurtful - particularly when I was pregnant. Devastated, I asked her to apologise and acknowledge how much she'd hurt me over the years with neglect, withholding affection and resenting me for things I had no control over - the fact that I am mixed-race, that I have a wealthy, white, professional father and that I was born at all. But she wouldn't back down. Instead, she wrote me a letter saying that our relationship had been inconsequential for years and that she was no longer interested in being my mother. She even signed the letter with her first name, rather than 'Mom'. That was a month before Tenzin's birth in December 2004, and I have had no contact with my mother since. She didn't even get in touch when he was rushed into the special care baby unit after he was born suffering breathing difficulties. And I have since heard that my mother has cut me out of her will in favour of one of my cousins. I feel terribly sad - my mother is missing such a great opportunity to be close to her family. But I'm also relieved. Unlike most mothers, mine has never taken any pride in my achievements. She has always had a strange competitiveness that led her to undermine me at almost every turn. When I got into Yale - a huge achievement - she asked why on earth I wanted to be educated at such a male bastion. Whenever I published anything, she wanted to write her version - trying to eclipse mine. When I wrote my memoir, Black, White And Jewish, my mother insisted on publishing her version. She finds it impossible to step out of the limelight, which is extremely ironic in light of her view that all women are sisters and should support one another. It's been almost four years since I have had any contact with my mother, but it's for the best - not only for my self-protection but for my son's well-being. I've done all I can to be a loyal, loving daughter, but I can no longer have this poisonous relationship destroy my life. I know many women are shocked by my views. They expect the daughter of Alice Walker to deliver a very different message. Yes, feminism has undoubtedly given women opportunities. It's helped open the doors for us at schools, universities and in the workplace. But what about the problems it's caused for my contemporaries? What about the children? The ease with which people can get divorced these days doesn't take into account the toll on children. That's all part of the unfinished business of feminism. Then there is the issue of not having children. Even now, I meet women in their 30s who are ambivalent about having a family. They say things like: 'I'd like a child. If it happens, it happens.' I tell them: 'Go home and get on with it because your window of opportunity is very small.' As I know only too well. Then I meet women in their 40s who are devastated because they spent two decades working on a PhD or becoming a partner in a law firm, and they missed out on having a family. Thanks to the feminist movement, they discounted their biological clocks. They've missed the opportunity and they're bereft. Feminism has betrayed an entire generation of women into childlessness. It is devastating. But far from taking responsibility for any of this, the leaders of the women's movement close ranks against anyone who dares to question them - as I have learned to my cost. I don't want to hurt my mother, but I cannot stay silent. I believe feminism is an experiment, and all experiments need to be assessed on their results. Then, when you see huge mistakes have been paid, you need to make alterations. I hope that my mother and I will be reconciled one day. Tenzin deserves to have a grandmother. But I am just so relieved that my viewpoint is no longer so utterly coloured by my mother's. I am my own woman and I have discovered what really matters - a happy family. • Baby Love: Choosing Motherhood After A Lifetime Of Ambivalence by Rebecca Walker was published by Souvenir Press on May 8, £15. How my mother's fanatical views tore us apart | Mail Online | ||
| Tonya "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Tonya Post Number: 7244 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
Ouch! Yikes! Whooooooa. Oh my goodness... Ow! | ||
| Tonya "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Tonya Post Number: 7247 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
You know, if Rebecca really wrote this, no, I'm not very surprised at what she had to say. Now whether or not it's appropriate I'm not so sure. It is the kind of conversation that should be had in private perhaps, face-to-face & behind closed doors. Just reading it makes me feel like I'm eavesdropping on a family affair.  Nevertheless, I must say, I was bothered with the tone that Walker took when describing her relationship with Rebecca in her book "In search of Our Mothers Garden." She came pretty close to saying that the darn girl was a daggon burden. I mean she was completely blunt about it. I can't remember exactly what she said and of course I'm too lazy to look it up, but it was very, very disturbing. I was uncomfortable reading it & I truly felt sorry for Rebecca. . | ||
| Libralind2 AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Libralind2 Post Number: 1047 Registered: 09-2004 Rating: N/A |
LiLi writes, From The Washington Post 2007: Rebecca Walker, Measuring Out A Mother's Love By Teresa Wiltz Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, March 30, 2007; C04 It's been several years since Rebecca Walker became estranged from her mother, the Pulitzer Prize-winning author Alice Walker, a rift that shows no signs of repair. But now that Walker has a new book exploring her nine-month odyssey to childbirth, that mother-daughter relationship has been opened up and dissected again, revealing oftentimes painfully squirmy details. The younger Walker, who is biracial and bisexual, has spent a lifetime -- and a career -- sorting through her issues. Her medium of choice: the memoir, which she likens to ripping off her clothes and strolling through a crowded street. She's got a knack for self-exposure -- and for courting controversy. "People are going ballistico," Walker, 37, said Tuesday night after appearing at Borders Books in Tysons Corner. "It's stirring up feelings on both sides." "It" would be her memoir, "Baby Love: Choosing Motherhood After a Lifetime of Ambivalence" and a certain chapter where she describes the difference between her love for her teenage stepson, Solomon -- whom she still parents with her ex, the singer-musician (and D.C. native) Me'shell Ndegéocello -- and her love for her biological son, Tenzin. In it, she wrote: "It's not the same. I don't care how close you are to your adopted son or beloved stepdaughter, the love you have for your non-biological child isn't the same as the love you have for your own flesh and blood. It's different. . . . It isn't something we're proud of, this preferencing of biological children, but if we ever want to close the gap I do think it's something we need to be honest about. . . . "Yes, I would do anything for my first son, within reason. But I would do anything at all for my second child, without reason, without a doubt." Then came a profile earlier this month in the New York Times, in which she sharpened the distinction. While she knows that she would "die for" Tenzin, she said, she's not sure she would do the same for her non-biological child. Infuriated letters to the editors ensued. As did angry postings on her blog RebeccaWalker.com, such as this one: "I do not want to speak for all the infertile women in the world who cannot birth their own 'natural' children but your comments in the NYTimes about adoptive parents not experiencing the same level of love as biological parents were about the most insensitive I have ever experienced." Walker says she was caught off guard by the fallout. These are her feelings, she says, her truth -- a "brutal truth," as she later put it -- but hers nonetheless. She says she's not trying to denigrate the many different incarnations of family and deem one type of love as lesser. Not lesser. Different. "I think it's healthy to talk about different kinds of love," she says after the reading. "You love each of your children differently. We have to be comfortable with thinking that there are different kinds of love. . . . I think my first son feels differently about his biological mom than he does me. And I'm fine with that." As an activist, she says, she's spent years celebrating family in all its guises; right now, she's working on an anthology that explores that very issue, "Walk This Way: Introducing the New American Family." After all, she once contemplated creating her own less-than-traditional family. In her memoir, she describes how she and her long-term female partner (whom she does not identify by name) approached a male friend about fathering a child for them. That union did not yield a child. But after the couple broke up, Walker met Glen (she doesn't provide his last name), her Buddhism teacher. Today, unmarried, the couple live in Maui with their son, Tenzin. "I salute her for writing about those mixed feelings," says the writer Erica Jong, who, along with her own writer daughter, Molly Jong-Fast, knows something about airing mixed feelings about family ties in memoir. "But not everyone feels that way. A lot of people feel very intensely about their adopted children. Whatever your feelings are, you should be able to write about them, even though they're taboo feelings." Walker wrote critically about her famous mother in her first memoir, "Black, White and Jewish: Autobiography of a Shifting Self," in 2001: "My parents did not hold me close, but encouraged me to go. They did not buffer, protect, watch out for, or look after me. I was mostly left alone to discover the world and my place in it." Today the two do not speak; Alice Walker has not met her only grandson. "We are estranged," Rebecca Walker says. The prospect of parenthood can be harrowing for any Gen X feminist -- so many choices, so little time. Independence vs. the ticktocking clock; the desire to be adventurously autonomous vs. the desire to love and be loved. Factor in a feud with an iconic mother, and for Walker, motherhood was something to be viewed through a haze of ambivalence. Until she got the call from the doctor's office informing her that her pregnancy was a viable one. Now, she wants other women contemplating the leap to motherhood to realize this: Fertility is finite. At the book signing, a woman raises her hand. Like Walker, she is 37. Like Walker, she's been ambivalent about becoming a mother. She's newly married. Can't she just wait a while? Enjoy the honeymoon? Is being a mother worth it? "What would you tell me?" she asks Walker. "It's totally worth it. You don't have much time. Get to it." Pause. "I'm so sorry." Walker laughs. Ruefully. And the small crowd -- all female save for one lone male -- laughs with her. | ||
| Tonya "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Tonya Post Number: 7251 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: N/A |
Again, I'm not surprised. Parents raised by bad parents become bad parents. Or, as Bill Cosby puts it: "hurt people hurt people" ... (not sure who the original coiner was). Probably the biggest lesson is how these cycles of bad parenting get started. I wonder what Alice walker's relationship was like with her own mother. Alice spoke briefly but fondly of her mother in "In Search of Our Mothers Garden". However, I got a better sense of who Flannery O'Connor was (a famous white female author) than I did of who/what her mother and their relationship is/was. | ||
| Carey Veteran Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 671 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Tonya, are you saying that you consider Rebecca to be a bad parent? | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 194 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Tonya: I read that piece in ISOOMG about AW's mom and Flannery O'Connor and had a reaction similar to yours. I came away from that--and the stuff with Rebecca--with the impression that AW is from the old school that says honors thy mothers no matter what they do/don't do, no matter what animosity you might harbor in your heart. (Fathers? Not so much, lol.) Even in her seminal essay from which the book derives its title, I felt her revelation about what the garden represents is a tad on the condescending side. In that essay, she paints Southern black religious women Of a Certain Age with a very broad, and again, somewhat condescending brush. I'd have to get the book to get specific quotes, but my impression IIRC was that these women were so downtrodden, disenfranchised, and disempowered that they were half-crazy and didn't know it. Something like that. ;-) Underneath the "empowering" words, I sensed an air of contempt. So...for Rebecca to air their dirty family laundry, instead of either honoring her mother publicly or at the very least remaining silent--I can see how AW might see that as high treason. Also, if AW viewed Rebecca as a calamity/distraction/burden (however delightful)as her writing suggests, then I can imagine her feeling like, "I didn't even want to deal with you, and this is the thanks I get????" Pure conjecture, but that's the impression I get. Rebecca's take (in another article in a UK paper) is that her mother is simply a narcissist. That too would explain a lot. | ||
| Carey Veteran Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 672 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Kitty Cat, your post was very insightful......and well written. I would really like to hear your opinion on the issue. It appears you have somewhat of a differing view. obviously you know little of the relationship between mother and daughter yet given what you have read of the contempt Rebecca has for her mother, what's your view on the issue of "airing their dirty laundry"? Can your see it as a release for the daughter? Can your view it as some sort of healing process for her? I can assume that others would think that she should act a certain way because she is the daughter of a famous person and possibly she could not longer carry that burden...she couldn't live that lie or continue her life based on the expectations of "others"... | ||
| Tonya "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Tonya Post Number: 7252 Registered: 07-2006 Rating: |
Hi Carey. are you saying that you consider Rebecca to be a bad parent? Even if you have the feelings (or lack of feelings) that these two women admitted to having towards their children (and stepchildren), you probably should not say it. Those are hurtful things for ppl to hear from a parent, imo. Look, there's no way to be certain what type of parent she (or her mother) is. But from what I've gathered here (and AW's book), I see no reason to reject calling the relationship between the two a "cycle" of mental & emotional abuse. FC, I agree with Carey your conjectures seem spot on. But this part: I felt her revelation about what the garden represents is a tad on the condescending side. In that essay, she paints Southern black religious women Of a Certain Age with a very broad, and again, somewhat condescending brush. Some women's souls ARE stripped away, by their men and other men & forces and then replaced with an emptiness that they try to escape but just can't. And these women ARE called "queens"--or in her words "worshiped" as "saints"--ONLY after their hearts and souls and emotions have been gutted away and disposed of and their hopes dreams and desires have been ignored thus ruined. I thought this section of the book was relevant and spot, actually. I didn't find it condescending. Tho, some of the words she chose were indeed provocative. | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 195 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: |
Carey wrote: what's your view on the issue of "airing their dirty laundry"? Can your see it as a release for the daughter? Can your view it as some sort of healing process for her? I can assume that others would think that she should act a certain way because she is the daughter of a famous person and possibly she could not longer carry that burden...she couldn't live that lie or continue her life based on the expectations of "others"... In general, I feel that people's dirty laundry is theirs to air. However, I do think that intent matters--whether or not the intent is to harm others in the airing. Further, is the harm offensive or defensive? After reading Rebecca's second memoir and an article she wrote about her mom in the British press recently (I *think* it precedes both articles posted here), I blogged about this very issue. At that time, I felt kinda torn as I am a mother as well as a daughter (RIP, mom). My relationship with my mom was a...complicated one, though loving, and at first glance, I was inclined to lean toward the stance that says that Rebecca had the right to tell her truth (and yes, tell it as a means of healing), and I didn't get the sense that her intent was to harm or seek vengeance. At that time, I blogged that maybe when my daughters were old enough to air my dirty laundry, my sympathies might lie more with the elder Walker. In the wake of this second article, however, I'm starting to wonder if Rebecca's isn't doing a bit of piling on. Still, who am I to say when she's written enough about the subject? The fact that her mother is famous isn't relevant imo, except to the extent that it opens RW up to accuses that she's trying to capitalize on her mom's fame. Some of the comments to the article I read a while back said exactly that. They were fairly brutal. But other comments were supportive of RW--and brutal towards AW. I don't think it has to necessarily be a zero sum game, though. I think that when people "side" with Rebecca *and* feel the need to demonize AW, it likely represents either their great disappointment in someone they previously idolized (wow, she has feet of clay!), or they just like it when the mighty are knocked down a peg. Whatever is true, it's sad to see rifts in families, and no one should delight in that. Tonya wrote: Some women's souls ARE stripped away, by their men and other men & forces and then replaced with an emptiness that they try to escape but just can't. And these women ARE called "queens"--or in her words "worshiped" as "saints"--ONLY after their hearts and souls and emotions have been gutted away and disposed of and their hopes dreams and desires have been ignored thus ruined. I thought this section of the book was relevant and spot, actually. I didn't find it condescending. Tho, some of the words she chose were indeed provocative. You know, at first reading, I was like, "Wow...she went THERE!?" Because I agree with you (and AW) that this is a very real tragedy in our communities. However, I just felt that she painted too broadly with that particular brush. Because we all know black Southern religious women who don't fit that mold. I just didn't get the "some" qualifier that you (Tonya) wrote, as I read her words. This discussion makes me want to revisit this text. Thanks! | ||
| Carey Veteran Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 675 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello Kitty & Tonya: Good stuff!.....Good Discussion!......I have a little more to say and ask but I am about to turn into a pumkin.....soooooo, until later. Carey | ||
| Carey Veteran Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 676 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Thank you too Brownsugga for dropping it on the board. Carey | ||
| Carey Veteran Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 678 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hello It is such a delicious treat to be able to discuss a topic with all of you....it really is....having said that....here we go *smile*. So much has been said that I didn't know where to start....so I will start with something that stuck out with me. Kitty Kat, you said: The fact that her mother is famous is not relevant IMO....my question is.....(and I am only asking for clarity).....relevant to whom?. If we take the "famous" tag out of the equation, the relevance of the discussion might be viewed as moot. Are you just addressing the issue......the relationships of all mothers and daughters and the more direct issue of "them" airing their dirty laundry.....or....Rebecca and her mother. This whole drama is related to "famous people and their siblings".....Now if I were to say, "Betty Big Butt down the street had a few choice words to say about her mother" .....I think the relevance of that statement might .......might be poignant only to a few.....and a deeper thought is the truthfulness of that statement. You very cleverly danced through various issues within the topic and I liked that. You argued both sides of the coin. You allowed us to visit various angles of the arguement.....why some would agree and conversely, why others might not. You topped it off by saying you were sympathetic yet stayed away from being judgemental. You talked about how we all change depending on where we are in any given place and time.....you spoke of your own personal battle.....those were courageous and insightful thoughts....."2 porks chops up girl"! In your reply post, you spoke of not getting the "some" (same?).....anyway... qualifier as Tonya. My view splits the baby on this one....condescending???....yet I do understanding your thinking. One more thing.....you also wrote: "In general, I feel that people's dirty laundry is theirs to air. However, I do think that intent matters--whether or not the intent is to harm others in the airing. Further, is the harm offensive or defensive?" It is my understanding that "intent" belongs to the one whom initiates the action. Therefore ilregardless of the rationalizations used to defend that intent the harm is nevertheless applied. Conversely, if the recipient of an action or spoken word is harmed or feels hurt..especially by the truth...that's their cross to bare. So....in short I am saying.....yes .... intent to harm...can be a motivating factor....yet, going full circle ......back to the crux of this discussion.....the questions remain the same....famous-mother/daughter-media-healing-money....etc. I think we are there....I believe you were implying something like "although what I am about to say may be harmful, I gotta defend myself and get you up off me" At the end (like you alluded to)I think most will agree with what they have accepted in their on lives and heart..and..how it relates to them. Tonya *smile*....you craftfully sidestepped a question of mine. You wrote : "Even if you have the feelings (or lack of feelings) that these two women admitted to having towards their children (and stepchildren), you probably should not say it. Those are hurtful things for ppl to hear from a parent, imo. Look, there's no way to be certain what type of parent she (or her mother) is. But from what I've gathered here (and AW's book), I see no reason to reject calling the relationship between the two a "cycle" of mental & emotional abuse". I asked "you" if you considered Rebecca to be a bad parent because "you" talked about a cycle of bad parenting. I guess I am looking for an "I" statement from "you" because you made the remark. You addressed "hurtful things" and ppl should not say and thus hear those things from their children......why not!? I am trying to see the connection between the "cycle" of mental & emotional abuse and the "cycle of bad parenting".......feel me....by connecting the two you appearing to be applying the old guilt by association thang.....again, am not questioning your opinion I am just looking for clarification.....and if possibly you feel like simply saying you misspoke....that's cool too. Carey Carey | ||
| Ferociouskitty Veteran Poster Username: Ferociouskitty Post Number: 197 Registered: 02-2008 Rating: N/A |
Hi, Carey... You wrote: Kitty Kat, you said: The fact that her mother is famous is not relevant IMO....my question is.....(and I am only asking for clarity).....relevant to whom? To clarify, I was responding to your writing this: I can assume that others would think that she should act a certain way because she is the daughter of a famous person and possibly she could not longer carry that burden...she couldn't live that lie or continue her life based on the expectations of "others"... ...so I was saying that she shouldn't be expected to act a certain way (presumably, not air the family's dirty laundry) just because her mother is famous. If we take the "famous" tag out of the equation, the relevance of the discussion might be viewed as moot. Are you just addressing the issue......the relationships of all mothers and daughters and the more direct issue of "them" airing their dirty laundry.....or....Rebecca and her mother. This whole drama is related to "famous people and their siblings".....Now if I were to say, "Betty Big Butt down the street had a few choice words to say about her mother" .....I think the relevance of that statement might .......might be poignant only to a few.....and a deeper thought is the truthfulness of that statement. That's precisely what I'm saying: It's about family, period, mothers and daughters specifically in this case. Fame should be irrelevant, but as I said once fame enters the equation, both mother and daughter now have to consider a very large audience (us). Betty Big Butt and her mama don't have that extra burden. If this is really about Rebecca's healing, she doesn't have any less of a need than Betty does. Her mother's fame should not be a hindrance in this regard. That's what I meant by irrelevant. In your reply post, you spoke of not getting the "some" (same?).....anyway... qualifier as Tonya. My view splits the baby on this one....condescending???....yet I do understanding your thinking. Two separate things. The lack of a qualifier is one issue. The second, separate, issue was her overall tone. Not sure if I made that clear. One more thing.....you also wrote: "In general, I feel that people's dirty laundry is theirs to air. However, I do think that intent matters--whether or not the intent is to harm others in the airing. Further, is the harm offensive or defensive?" I believe you were implying something like "although what I am about to say may be harmful, I gotta defend myself and get you up off me" Pretty much, yeah! | ||
| Carey Veteran Poster Username: Carey Post Number: 681 Registered: 05-2004 Rating: |
Kitty, Again you did well, my mind is at peace.....I understand the lack of a qualifying statement and how the tone of an individuals statement can be a deciding factor in making ones own judgement of that statement......I guess it time for me to stroke you a bit......you have skills....IMO, you stay rooted in the core of an issue and you recognize the differing factors of "that" debate/arguement....and you address them with honesty and bravery.....very succinctly I may add. Until we meet again... Carey Carey | ||
| Kola_boof AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Kola_boof Post Number: 4791 Registered: 02-2005 Rating: N/A |
2003 Several years ago when Rebecca Walker wrote her autobiography "Black White and Jewish," I wrote a huge glowing review for her book on this website, because I identified with her journey and was really in awe of her. The fact that my idol, Alice Walker, hadn't (allegedly) been much of a mother to her made me especially caring and sympathetic to her experiences. At that time, I didn't dislike Alice for failing Rebecca...as both a daughter and mother myself, I have come to realize that children aren't born with "instruction manuals" and that no matter how good a parent you are--there is NO WAY to not fukck up in some way raising a child....but I definitely sympathized with Rebecca and really thought she was a gifted writer and a special human being. NOW, in 2008, after Rebecca's string of "brand new" articles in British newspapers where she completely denigrates, villifies and even lies on her mother---I find that I don't like Rebecca at all. I was fine when I thought Rebecca was merely telling her own story, her own experiences--straight/no chaser---in "Black White and Jewish", but now that it's apparent that she's declared war on Alice Walker and is out to destroy her mother, her mother's legacy and Alice's work as a "black woman artist"---I really don't appreciate it. Rebecca's last name is not Walker. She changed it to "Walker" upon seeking her first book contract so that she could capitalize off her mother's fame and the "easy publicity" she would get being the daughter of America's foremost black woman novelist. BUT...if I had a daughter and she wanted to use my fame to get a start in life, I would not have a problem with that, so I never held that against Rebecca or cared about it. I supported her, because she's brilliant and sensitive. What I really despise now, however, is the "lie" Rebecca promotes regarding Alice Walker's view on motherhood as extolled in the many books by Alice Walker---books that I have read over and over again all my life. I am a mother of two sons, a woman who raised herself on Alice's various philosophies, and I never got the message from Alice's books that she was AGAINST women having children and being mothers. What I got was that considering the "era" in which Alice was writing---she wanted women to have a CHOICE between "homemaker" and "career woman" or to shoot for BOTH. Alice was against the social order that said females had to married any man who would have them, work like a dog for that man and be unloved and have children---just to make babies. Never did I feel in Alice's work that she pitied and devalued the beauty of women bringing life into the world. In fact, there is a mountain of OPPOSITE messages that I receive from Alice's work. Because of Alice's writing, I saw it as a supreme blessing to have these wonderful little boys come out of my body. I felt like a true lioness when they were born. I felt stronger and more obligated to my own horizons--on behalf of my wonderful sons. I now purchase Alice's children's books, which are quite wise, loving and empowering for my sons. I don't suppose Rebecca expects that anyone will actually READ the many books of Alice Walker, so she's doing what society in general does to any FEMALE who dares question and challenge the power structure in the society---she's Stereotyping and demonizing Alice. "Look at me, I'm a good woman healed by a man's dick and my mother Alice is a mean old bitter black ••••• who couldn't cut it as a real woman." _____________ Then there's Rebecca's loving comments about growing up with Alice as a mother in an article that Rebecca wrote for "ESSENCE" and the same sunny mother/daughter comments in her PRE-"BWJ" books. Amazingly, in the early leg of her career, she shared PHOTOS from her childhood--- a loving, doting Alice Walker holding her on the porch in Mississippi, Alice dressing her up and Alice taking her to school--- (PHOTO) she and Alice grinning with Alice's then man Robert Allen--- (PHOTO) she and Alice laughing at a book event (PHOTO) Rebecca Walker on the set of "The Color Purple" where her mother had gotten her a "Summer Job" as a technician for the film. Alice and Rebecca hugged up like a mother/daughter team on the set. (PHOTO) she and Alice grinning at an Art Gallery. (PHOTO) the famous pic of Alice sitting in Rebecca's lap. (PHOTO) Alice and Rebecca on vacation together in South Africa, the two of them posing with Nelson Mandela. (PHOTO) Alice at an event at Rebecca's high school. Hugged up smiling. (PHOTO) Alice visiting Rebecca on the campus of YALE. Amazingly, all these photos STOPPED being released by Rebecca's camp once she came out with her autobiography. The whole story changed to one about Alice being a mother who "was never there at all." Now don't get me wrong....  I'm in no way implying that Alice Walker was a good mother to Rebecca. In fact, I believe Rebecca when she says that Alice was self-absorbed, consumed by her work and neglected her emotionally--withholding stimulus. (Of course, I don't agree with other posters on this thread who feel Alice's comments about being a mother in "IN SEARCH OF OUR MOTHER'S GARDENS" indicate that Alice was "burdened" by her daughter----I have read that book at least 50 times, and I got the feeling that Alice wrote honestly about her feelings, but at the same, conveyed an enormous amount of "Gratefulness" to Baby Rebecca for giving her another perspective and someone else to "be alive through." It was clear to me that she loved her daughter--but was also an Activist, a critical thinker and a Writer BEFORE Rebecca was born and would continue to be regardless of this "wonderful distraction". I don't see men being hated for the same honesty or being denied their own identity separate from their child's.) But what gets me about Rebecca's very public war on her mother--is that she's not going to stop until WE ALL hate and condemn her mother for not being the parent she wanted. What also really pisses me off---as someone who has been adopted---is Rebecca's claim that human females aren't willing to "die" for a child that isn't their biological child and that they simply don't love their adopted children to the degree that they can love a child from their own body. Intellectually, I can understand what Rebecca meant about not loving her own stepson as deeply as she does the one from her body---but that is not EVERYBODY, that is Rebecca. My Black American parents, plus my "Nana Glodine"...are/were willing to die for me...and I wasn't even a "baby" when they got me. I was already a big kid, a screwed up kid, a child requiring psychiatric help. I became the YOUNGEST child in Washington, D.C. history to have a "heart attack" when I had one at the age of eight--because I couldn't speak English yet and thought my new adoptive parents were taking me to be sent away--I had a heart attack. (another child has since broken my record). My biological Egyptian grandmother, Najet Kolbookek, gave me up for adoption for being "too black"---but my Black American grandmother from North Carolina, Nana Glodine, loved me more than anything on this earth and taught me that I was the most beautiful child imaginable! I feel so loved by my adoptive parents that I can't even imagine them not being my parents. I see them--as my real parents. Regretting a Biracial Child   Of course, as an African person (a proud, black-identified one)...what always fascinates me the most are the passages by both Alice and Rebecca concerning what it's like to produce the symbol of "the movement child" (Alice and her Jewish husband, the first to break Mississippi law by getting married, had biracial Rebecca as a symbol of the civil rights movement). Alice has written about black women feeling "obliterated" by their biracial children's looks. Rebecca constantly insinuates through her writing about her mother seeming to hold it against her--that she isn't black enough. I'm sure it's not that cut and dry, but I'm also sure that because Rebecca didn't inherit her mother's TYPE of beauty and travels between several alternate worlds--relating to and identifying with iconic structures many of which degraded and DISALLOWED women like Alice in the past---this has become a major underlying thread, just as Rebecca alleges it has. On that account---my heart truly goes out to Rebecca, because what "separation" on earth could possibly be more painful and debilitating than to look nothing like one's own parent? And when will the human race acknowledge that there are natural "Psychological" responses that humans have either Parent to Child or Child to Parent when this occurrs? I am in no way saying that every person feels this "fissure" between themself and a biracial offspring---but I am saying that it's completely normal and "likely" that depending on the child's proximity of same-likeness to the parent (and notice that Rebecca doesn't look anything like EITHER of her parents)--then there can be a very real although unintended rejection of one's child based just on that. I also know cases where a biracial child comes out looking very much like the parent and they enjoy the unspoken ease of "sameness" because of it. Still...we've all read the article by the White British woman who wrote how she loves her "black daughter" but finds herself so disappointed and "rebuffed" by the child's "ever-darkening" brown complexion. The white British lady had assumed the child would be "white looking" and have at least ONE of her features! Not only was Rebecca rejected, but now her newborn child--who is even less black than Rebecca. On this...my heart goes out to Rebecca, because she's beautiful and didn't ask to come here. But what I don't like...is Rebecca's continuing war against her own mother in public. It has gone BEYOND Rebecca simply relating her story to the world (she did that in BWJ). It is now a full blown hatchet job on not just Alice Walker's "mothering skills", but on the entire entity that is Alice. She wants to take Alice from ALL of us--but use Alice's name and fame to build her own castle at the same time. She seems to forget that because of Alice Walker, there are some of us who did not become prostitutes. That because of Alice Walker, there are some of us who did not become drug addicts. That because of Alice Walker, there are some of us who LOVE our black African looks and do not believe in war. That because of Alice Walker, there are some of us who stopped beating our wives and others who stopped beating our children. As an artist, I think there was definitely room for Rebecca to make her own claim to fame, and I think many of us cared for her and empathized with her experience under a neglectful mother. But by destroying and killing off her mother, by taking Alice's mountain of good work away from us so that all we're left with is puny, whining, "watered down" Rebecca--it's going to backfire. I honestly think Rebecca belives she's a good person, but the fact is, she's not. I already don't like her anymore. Give me Alice any day. | ||
| Ntfs_encryption "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Ntfs_encryption Post Number: 3161 Registered: 10-2005 Rating: N/A |
And there ya have it........ | ||
| Moonsigns AALBC .com Platinum Poster Username: Moonsigns Post Number: 2058 Registered: 07-2004 Rating: N/A |
Who knows what is really going on with their relationship; however, that was an interesting read! | ||
| Abm "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Abm Post Number: 10050 Registered: 04-2004 Rating: N/A |
Hi Kola, I think might agree with you that a HUGE part of the problem between Alice and Rebecca stems from Rebecca and Rebecca’s child not being Black enuff. But ALICE made the decision to marry and make a child with a White/Jewish man. The only thing Rebecca did 'wrong' was being born from ALICE's decision. And I am iffy on your castigations of Rebecca. Because while I agree Rebecca is using her mother's fame to her advantage, I can see how Rebecca might feel she is JUSTIFIED to do such seeing as she helped to PAY for all what Alice achieved, all you and many other love about Alice, with HER childhood. And who amongst us have the right to declare how Rebecca can and should reconcile that? | ||
| Cynique "Cyniquian" Level Poster Username: Cynique Post Number: 12304 Registered: 01-2004 Rating: |
Alice Walker, as gifted and talented as she is as a writer, from all reports was a lousy mother. She has no body to blame for the way her daughter is reacting but her own crazy self. I see Joan Crawford's daughter who originated the "Mommy, Dearest" concept of flawed motherhood is coming out with another book elaborating further on what a sadistic parent Joan was. Self-absorbed artistic people do seem to fall short when it comes to parenting skills. |
