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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6564
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 11:18 am: | 
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(Tonya: Honestly, this is probably the best piece written hitherto in this entire primary season.)
Hillary vs. the Patriarchy
By Erica Jong
Monday, February 4, 2008; 12:00 AM
"Look, the only people for Hillary Clinton are the Democratic establishment and white women," said Bill Kristol yesterday on Fox News Sunday, one of the many "news" outlets to expose Kristol's reliable sexism. "The Democratic establishment would be crazy to follow an establishment that led it to defeat year after year," Kristol continued in his woolly, repetitive style. "White women are a problem, you know. We all live with that."
Bill Kristol has been much criticized for his war mongering, arrogance, poor writing and lack of fact checking. But at least the guy is honest. He considers women a problem -- especially white women. And he feels confident enough as an alpha male to be open about it. "I shouldn't have said that," he demurred. But he can say anything he likes and still fall eternally upward. He's a white man, lord of all he surveys -- including Hillary Rodham Clinton.
I, too, have been watching Hillary Clinton with admiration, love, hate, annoyance and empathy since she appeared on the national scene 16 years ago. (Can it be only16 years?) I've had a hard time making up my mind about her. Perhaps that's because I identify with her so strongly.
I'm hardly the only woman who sees my life mirrored in hers. She's always worked twice as hard to get half as far as the men around her. She endured a demanding Republican father she could seldom please and a brilliant, straying husband who played around with bimbos. She was clearly his intellectual soul mate, but the women he chased were dumb and dumber.
Nothing she did was ever enough to stop her detractors. Supporting a politician husband by being a successful lawyer, raising a terrific daughter, saving her marriage when the love of her life publicly humiliated her -- these are things that would be considered enormously admirable in most politicians and public figures. But because she's a white woman, she's been pilloried for them.
She's had to endure nutcrackers made in her image, insults about the shape of her ankles and nasty cracks from mediocrities in the media like Rush Limbaugh, Chris Matthews and Kristol.
When she decided to run for the Senate she was called a carpetbagger. When she won the hearts of her most conservative constituents by supporting their actual needs, the same poisonous pundits who said it couldn't be done attacked her.
Nor are poisonous women pundits any more kind. Maureen Dowd regularly gives her a drubbing. And "progressives" from Susan Brownmiller to Oprah Winfrey sport Obama buttons.
I, too, was a bluestocking from a woman's college, straight-A student, Phi Beta Kappa, who found my voice as a writer while exiled to the boonies with a husband who cheated. With every book I published, I saw more clearly how uneven was the playing field for women. We were let into the literary world on sufferance. Unless we wrote unreadable academic tracts that nobody bought, or mysteries or romances or something called "chick lit" (whatever that is), or biographies of Great Men, we were booed off the stage.
I chanced to get famous for my work. Hillary got famous in the unspeakable role of "First Lady," which Jackie Kennedy Onassis thought sounded like the name of racehorse. If she seemed uncomfortable in her skin, if she kept changing her hair, her image, her style, her way of speaking, how could we blame her? She was trying to be self-protective. Who wouldn't be if constantly attacked by a beastly press?
Little by little, she loosened up. She learned how to dress and speak and smile and relax on the podium. I've watched this whole process with immense admiration.
Fame in America is unforgiving. And she had to grow comfortable in the spotlight -- something very few people can do without having a nervous breakdown or drinking or popping pills.
Hillary made it without self-destructing. She was a tower of strength to her husband, who seems to have little impulse control, and her daughter whom she obviously loves and whom she never exploited even in the worst of times.
She cannot have enjoyed her husband's playing around. She certainly never condoned it. But he was clever enough for her, he supported her dreams, and they both loved their smart and beautiful daughter.
Besides, what does anyone know about anyone else's marriage? As a novelist I understand that I can't even invent the complexities most people live with, the compromises made, the deals negotiated and renegotiated. If it works, let's say hallelujah, rather than pick and quibble. It took me three marriages to find my soul mate. Maybe Hillary was luckier.
In the 1990s, when they became "Billary" as president, she gave her all. When the White House beckoned, she was true blue. When he took the hardest job in the world, she helped. And when he rewarded her by letting some tootsie do whatever it was they did in the Oval Office, she got really mad.
But she was wise enough to know what it did and did not mean. She did what smart European and Asian women have done through the ages: She kept her marriage but changed her focus to her own ambitions.
As a senator she has learned compromise and negotiation. She has gotten to know red America as well as blue. If she could win over the rednecks in upstate New York, she can win over any American. She knows this country is full of "security" moms as well as soccer moms. Since she is a woman, she has to show she's ready to be commander in chief. Hence her "triangulation" on Iraq and her signing the absurd Lieberman-Kyl resolution, which calls on our government to use "military instruments" to "combat, contain and [stop]" Iran's meddling in Iraq.
By the time it came up she must have known the Cheney-Bush war profiteers would never embrace even partial peace. She had to win over her America and theirs.
Who ever got elected in the United States without moving to the center? Not Ralph Nader the narcissist, nor Ross Perot the spoiler, nor certainly Adlai Stevenson the "egghead," nor Ronnie Reagan the red-baiter from Hollywoodland. Dubya presented himself as a "compassionate conservative" and our dopey press bought it. They inflicted him on us because they thought Al Gore was a nerd. The right-wing media barons happily smeared the better man for no good reason. Noam Chomsky predicted all this 25 years ago, when he said that the concentration of the media would rob us of real news.
It certainly has. We can read all we want about Britney, Paris, Heath, Tom Cruise, the Spice Girls and all their buds -- dead or alive -- but we can't read about how many children have been maimed in Iraq, or their dead and legless or armless mothers and fathers who were shocked and awed. But we know it's happening. And we feel the great weight of our complicity.
You will point to Hillary's complicity. You will quote crazy-like-a-fox Ann Coulter, who claims to be voting for her.
You will also quote left-wing bloggers who love Barack Obama, and MoveOn.org peaceniks (I am one) who see no evil in him (nor do I). But I see little experience either. Obama is smart and attractive. Maybe he'll be president someday.
He was lucky enough not to be in the Senate when the Iraq war resolution was floated after then-Secretary of State Colin Powell lied about WMDs. That was the true tragedy of race: a black man lying for a corrupt white administration that was using him as a token, much as they use Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice now.
Obama is also a token -- of our incomplete progress toward an interracial society. I have nothing against him except his inexperience. Many black voters agree. They understand tokenism and condescension.
I understand my hopeful friends who think an Obama button will change America. But I'm sticking with Hillary. I trust her because all her life, her pro bono work has been for mothers and children. And mothers and children -- of all colors -- are the most oppressed group in our country. I trust her to speak for our children and grandchildren -- and for us. She always has.
officejongleur@rcn.com
Erica Jong's 20th book is "Seducing The Demon." She writes poems, novels and non-fiction and blogs for the Huffington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/03/AR2008020303194. html |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 6228
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 11:24 am: |
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Who next? Roseanne Barr?
You are a LOSER, Tonya!
And the Democratic Party appears about to build a bridge to the past by nominating the spouse of the last Democratic president who has herself been a Washington insider for almost 20 years.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6565
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 8 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 11:30 am: |
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"And mothers and children -- of all colors -- are the most oppressed group in our country. I trust her to speak for our children and grandchildren -- and for us. She always has."
Considering that the Black community is now made up almost exclusively of Blk WOMEN and Blk CHILDREN, how can you be for anyone else? This EGO TRIP for Black men is undeserving. Lord knows they don't deserve it.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9864
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 7 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2008 - 11:03 pm: |
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Tonya,
It's very strange what you do here everyday. All the loathing and hatred of Black men is so sad and pathetic it, ironically, often appear comical.
Really, if you have so little respect and regard for Black men, if you genuinely feel Black men are so undeserving of Black women, why do you spend so much of your time socializing with them here? Why not go spend time with White and other non-Black men with whom you're likely to enjoy more?
And, in case you don't already know, nearly half of those "Blk CHILDREN" you profess to be concerned about will very soon grow into being "undeserving" Blk MEN. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11375
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 12:16 am: |
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Is Tonya's "loathing and hatred of black men" an indication that she is "socializing" with them on this board?????
And how obvious is the response to this gem? "And, in case you don't already know, nearly half of those "Blk CHILDREN" you profess to be concerned about will very soon grow into being "undeserving" Blk MEN."
Yes, because they will grow up without the benefit of the black fathers who have deserted them.
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Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2522
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 06:05 am: |
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Well, my endorsement of Obama has nothing to do with his race. I quite simply believe in him very much.
I do find it QUITE QUITE QUITE ironic that the first popular well-educated Black male candidate for presidency......was raised with no help from a Black male. That should knock you guys down a few pegs. No black male wanted a hand in raising him, and had he just become another street thug he would be just as ignored by black men now as he was as a child.
Obama is where he is today because of his own hard work ethic and his own initiative and intelligence. His mother did a good job raising him...ALONE. |
Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2523
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 06:18 am: |
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And, Tonya, I don't intend to berate Obama for simply being a black man just because I think "black men don't deserve it".
Here you have a candidate who's qualified by any standards the other candidates are judged by and who DESPITE not having his father's hand in raising him didn't let his circumstances hold him down....versus Mr. and Ms. "my father gave me enough money to go to school and get into politics."
"Black men" may not deserve it in general, but Mr. Obama SPECIFICALLY does.
And it's not fair that in your wish to castigate undeserving black men, you would tear down a well DESERVING black man who does stand by his black family.....or I wonder if you would have taken him more seriously if he considered himself more white and was standing by a white family? |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9866
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 08:08 am: |
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Renata,
Are you suggesting there are NO Black men who have been raised by Black fathers (and, btw, Black MOTHERS, seeing as Barack's mother is White) who are worthy of being president?
And does Obama having been raised by a WHITE woman knock YOU down a few pegs? |
Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2524
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 09:09 am: |
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ABM....there may be others who are worthy of it.....tell them to run and we'll see. Heck, we had a black FEMALE to run before black men even got the nerve to try it.
I was actually hoping my son would be the first black president. But as he's only 3, I'm sure someone else will beat him to it before he's old enough to run.
Obama's mother did a GREAT job raising him, especially (in my opinion) as a white woman who raised him to not hate his black image and black women (a better job than a lot of black women who raise their sons to only want NON-black women), and I hope I do as well of a job with my son.
And I don't care what you or anyone thinks, but her raising him should be the STANDARD for how women raise their sons: even without a father, make sure he has a good education, he doesn't equate black with substandard, and he has the confidence to know that he can be president if he wants to and not let others tell him it can't be done.
I hope to do as well with my own son. |
Enchanted
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 1173
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 09:17 am: |
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*the comments o this thread by black women make me very ashamed
*becuse it shows that black men are dammed if they do an dammed if they dont by some black women,particularly bitter hatful ones like Tanya
*I thank God that 80% of black female voters have ben supporitng Obama an that aalbc.com is the only place I encounter this type of b.s.
*I hav nothing agains someone voting for Hillary Clinton if that your choice (I like Hilary an I orignally wsa for hilary until a bettr canddiate came along) but Tanya is not supprting a candidate she is vomiting up a sickness she has an abusing other peeples right
to our choice of Obama posting hate propangda
*"Fear of Flying" by Erica Jong--hav you read
it Miss smart ass Tanya?
*You dredge up an essay by well known racist colorstruck white femnist bittch IVY LEAGUE hags like Erica Jong an suggest we should put Erica Jongs word before an intelligent black woman like Michelle Obama???
*Michelle Obama went to Princeton-Harvard an workd n Chicago ghettos so why is her word not respectble?
*Michelle is mother of two blak daughters--you wan them raised on Erica Jong White Queen bs?
*BARACK OBAMA has spent his life working for blak women, blak children an all people--why does that not count?
*Why will Tanya suggest "white feminist" goals r more urgent than "black womanist" goals?
*Alice Walker, Toni Morrison, Oprah, all stronly support Barack Obama--A GOOD BLACK MAN the type that black womanist have alway supported!
*What kind of SICK female demands that black women cant support a black man when he has afirmed an support black women an children?
*Tanya is a sick indivual an Cynique you r very wrong--her hatred of blak men is not understanable it's misguided an eventully will destroy her chance to be happy an have a
meaningful life
*I hav many many issue with black men, I get piss with blak men an I am very vocal when I tell blak men 'fukckk you'-but I do not hate black men or I woul not waste my time trying to get him born back to me
*I cussed blak men becaus I love him an I wont be disrespectd
*If Tanya willing to put Erica Jong, Gloria Stenems 'integrity', 'judgment' an 'white expereince' as white women as equal to me an Michelle then I dont like Tanya becaus that means she will turn on us for Miss Anne
*I happent to like Hillary clinton an I previously was goin to vote for Hillary, but Barack Obama is a bettr candidate an hes bettr for America an bettr for my children
He is a blessing to all peeple IMO
Hillarys ass is grass.
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Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6570
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 5 (Vote!) | | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2008 - 01:27 pm: |
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Renata, you and Abm deliberately twisted my post in order to have the conversation you both are most comfortable with. That's fine. Abm has been doing it for awhile and I've been ignoring him. He wants an argument w/me (about Black men vs. Black women) because he's upset that I don't agree w/his choice for president. You on the other hand, you just got back! And you're not even gonna stop to say hello??? I'm sayin, you can twist my words all you like, but I'll be damned if you're gonna do it without atleast first saying hello. HEY BYTCH...what's up, miss ya, glad you're back.
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Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2530
Registered: 08-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 07:49 am: |
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ROFLMAO.....you can't POSSIBLY be that damn sensitive. OK, I'll indulge.
How ya doing, Tonya? How's ya mama? How's ya mama's mama? Y'all doing OK up that way? I hope it ain't too cold for ya. (I am SO damn Mississippi)
*sigh* OK...with that out of the way......
Tonya, you know that not voting for Obama because you believe black men in general don't "deserve" it is a bunch of bullshyt. As if white men or women have done anything to deserve our vote.
It doesn't anger me at all that you (or any black person) is voting for Hilary, but it's just really stupid for someone who seems to be smart like you to make RACE a reason for not voting for one candidate, but not holding the other race responsible for anything they've done against you. I could just as well say I'm not voting for anyone white if I can avoid it because of segregation (which still exists in the south, btw, just not legally....go to any public school).
And when those black men left their families (NOT Obama, btw, who stayed with his) none of those white women were there to do anything to help black women with a damn thing.
So, again, your not voting for Obama because black men IN GENERAL have done nothing for black people is just BULLSHYT because you know white women haven't done shyt for you, either....but for them ONLY you're willing to forgive it. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11383
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 12:29 pm: |
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You really are guilty of stating people's position for them in order to make your point. How are YOU going to tell a person why they are voting for any candidate?? Many black women are voting for Hillary not because of what she can do or has done for black people, and not because they are mad at black men, but because they identify with HRC on a gender basis and simply want to see a woman have a chance at fixing this screwed up country. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9867
Registered: 04-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 05:36 pm: |
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Renata,
I applaud Shirley Chisolm having the guts to make a run at the White House during a time when even the mere notion of such must of have been considered both ludicrous and frightening. Too bad she wasn't born 40 years later.
I find it interesting and ironic how even though you and Tonya appear to disagree both you (via praise of him) and she (via contempt of him) are using Obama to smear all other Black men. And, again, I think it unfortunate that so many Black women appear to lust for and revel in deriding Black men...especially since many of those same Black women are and/or will be be mothers of Black MEN.
Don't you chicks see the karmic calamity you're sewing?
Perhaps you might want to consider that as you groom your 3 year old into becoming Commander In Chief.
Btw: From what I have heard and read, A LOT of credit is due to Obama's grandparents, particularly his White grandFATHER, for the caliber of he has become. Ironically, this great Black man is the product of a pretty good WHITE village. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9868
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 05:46 pm: |
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Tonya,
It's not your supporting Hillary that's bugs me. Hell, I've long since accepted the greater probability of Hillary winning the Democratic nomination. The stats favor her.
And, really, 'So what' if she wins. We've survived worse than (I HOPE) a Hillary Clinton presidency is likely to be.
But it's all your lying, hysterics, smearing and fuhking SPAMMING you've done about Obama here on this site find detestable...and unfortunate.
Because, even when we disagreed, I really USED to enjoy chatting with you.
And, I wager, my feelings are shared by LOTS of others (most who would never post rebuts to you) who frequent this website. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11385
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 06:08 pm: |
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Oh, good grief. Who spammed and smeared any more than the Hillary detractors??? I would hope that the intelligent people who frequent this board have sense enough to take all of the mud-slinging with a grain of salt. The blog rants about both candidates neutralized each other.
Discerning people should be able to realize that somewhere between the excessive accusations dwelled the truth.
And it certainly helps to have a sense of humor when it comes to all of the hyperbole. Sheeze |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6579
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 07:14 pm: |
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What a bullshit ass argument, Abm. Nobody's forcing you to read these threads. Every one of them has a heading. And I'm very explicit with my headings. If you don’t like what you see on a thread why the f\uck would you click on its link and then read it?
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9869
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 07:45 pm: |
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Tonya,
Good question. I agree it's probably a good idea for us to ignore each other.
Later... |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11386
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2008 - 08:29 pm: |
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Welcome to the club, Tonya. I predict you will survive being "ignored" by ABM who has now taken his baseball bat and left the game. Watta Wuss.
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Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2531
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 07:33 am: |
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ABM, I don't use Obama to smear other black men. I give credit where it's due. If another black man were to run for president and were a great candidate, I'd probably vote for them too and not consider what I may feel every other black man has done. But they have to run to win. As I've said, we've voted for white candidates without bringing up all of the ills of the white race against us, so no way in hell would I hold the actions of other black men against a great black candidate. Also, you have to wonder what incentive would it be for people to do better, if they do so and are being held responsible for what others have done?
I mean, REALLY! If we turn on a great person like Obama because "black men don't deserve to be president", we're just really saying "we don't care how you care for your family, how well educated you are, how hard you work for your goals, or how morally upstanding you are, you ain't getting my support." yeah, there's some incentive for change......
Also, I have thought about my feelings toward men and how I raise my son. This is actually the only place where I express those feelings at all. I'm very careful not to let my son hear or experience negative sentiment towards blacks and black men from ANY source, including me. |
Renata
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Renata
Post Number: 2532
Registered: 08-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 07:41 am: |
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Also, if I had to base my vote on who's helped black women the most.....I wouldn't be voting at all. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6586
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 08:17 am: |
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Abm,
I quit you FIRST so take that you stankin cootie head! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9874
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 05:18 pm: |
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Renata,
I believe Black women have benefited from having BOTH Hillary and Barack in the Senate, especially if you juxtapose their contributions with those of your typical White Anglo Saxon Protestant male who's MOST typically occupies their slots. |
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