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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 6097
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 10:54 am: | 
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January 10, 2008. MediaTakeOut.com is hearing some disturbing chatter going around that Hillary Clinton may have rigged the New Hampshire primary vote. According to growing reports on both Democratic and Republican blogs, Hillary's surprising victory may have been caused by voter fraud.
Of course the mainstream media isn't trying to touch this story with a 10 foot pole. But we're not the mainstream media. And besides, while we're not quite sure we believe it, this is the kind of story that needs to be put out there.
PRIMARY CONCERNS
By Robert C. Koehler
Tribune Media Services
As the breathless sports coverage of the presidential primaries bursts around me this morning, I’m doing my best to resist surrendering to the contrived drama about “comeback kids” and the flying shrapnel of numbers and hold onto my troubled skepticism about the electoral process, or at least most of it.
First of all, before we get too enthusiastic about feminist solidarity or wax knowingly about New Hampshire Democrats’ traditional soft-heartedness toward the Clinton family, let’s ponder yet again the possibility of tainted results, which is such an unfun prospect most of the media can’t bear to remember that all the problems we’ve had with electronic voting machines — and Diebold machines in particular, which dominate New Hampshire polling places — remain unsolved.
Did the Hillary campaign really defy the pollsters? She had been trailing Barack Obama by 13 percentage points, 42 to 29, in a recent Zogby poll, as election watchdog Brad Friedman pointed out. And the weekend’s “rapturous packed rallies for Mr. Obama,” as the New York Times put it, “suggested Mrs. Clinton was in dire shape.”
So when she emerged from the Tuesday primary with an 8,000-vote and 3-percentage-point victory over Obama, perhaps — considering the notorious unreliability, not to mention hackability, of Diebold machines — the media might have hoisted a few red flags in the coverage, rather than immediately chalk the results up to Clinton’s tears and voter unpredictability. (Oh, if only more reporters considered red flags patriotic.)
The fact is, whatever actually happened in New Hampshire voting booths on Tuesday, our elections are horrifically insecure. For instance, Bev Harris, of the highly respected voting watchdog organization Black Box Voting, recently wrote that the Diebold 1.94w optical scan machines used in some 55 percent of New Hampshire precincts (representing more than 80 percent of the state’s voters) are “the exact same make, model and version hacked in the Black Box Voting project in Leon County (Florida)” a few years ago. They haven’t been upgraded; the security problems haven’t been fixed.
National, or at least media, denial about this situation doesn’t say much for the strength of our democracy.
And there's more. The political blog Prescue showed the difference between hand counted and machine counted votes.
By Percentage:
Method Hillary Clinton Barack Obama
Diebold Machines 53.23% 46.77%
Hand Count 47.47% 52.53%
By Votes
Method Hillary Clinton Barack Obama
Diebold Machines 82860 72807
Hand Count 18898 20912
By Number of Municipalities Won
Method Hillary Clinton Barack Obama
Diebold Machines 54 33
Hand Count 43 77
About 81% of the votes will be "counted" by the Diebold machines.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11157
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 12:57 pm: |
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According to a lot of pundits, these caucus popularity contests are much ado about nothing. A party's candidate will be decided after deals are cut at the national conventions.
Lord help chrishayden if Hillary is selected by the Dems to be the runner and she "loses" a close one. He'll self implode because he will be so conflicted by not being able to resort to his usual "they stole the election" chant because to do so would be to - perish the thought - help Hillary's cause. poor ol fella.  |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 624
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: 
Votes: 4 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 03:23 pm: |
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And so if Senator Obama had won, would the Diebold machines be deemed reliable?
Notice it is NOT Senator Obama that it is calling for a recount, it is Dennis Kucinich. Some Obama supporters are sounding like sore losers. They need to leave NH behind and concentrate on Nevada where Senator Obama is way behind Senator Clinton. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9808
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 04:08 pm: |
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Robynmarie: "They need to leave NH behind and concentrate on Nevada where Senator Obama is way behind Senator Clinton."
I agree what was done in New Hampshire is done. But given the apparent unreliability of the polling, as proven by the 16-point error that occurred in New Hampshire, you Clinton supporters should probably NOT be to sure of or comfortable with thinking that about Nevada. |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 625
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 04:54 pm: |
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It's true. The polls cannot be trusted. What counts is the ground game, knocking on doors, shaking hands, answering questions etc.
Senator Obama needs to get busy in Nevada, because Senator Clinton is wooing the Latino vote heavily. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 629
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 05:25 pm: |
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It seems ever since ol' Hill turned on the waterworks, she's been winning. I find that ... calculating. My gut tells me she was coached. C'mon, her campaign manager knows she's perceived as a cold b1tch. So she sheds a few tears and voters think, "Hey, she's not so bad afterall. She's got feelings, too." So now people feel guilty for misjudging her as a cold b1tch, and they go vote for her as their way of making amends to ol' Hill.
And another thing, whenever BO-BO loses to Hill-Billie, he can't holler that the poll is invalid because everyone will say he just thinks they're out to cheat him because he's Black. He'll be called a sore loser, paranoid, and accused of playing the race card. So he has to remain mum even if he suspects foulplay. They've got homeboy by the testicles.
I'll say it again, this whole election smells rotten. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11160
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, January 12, 2008 - 06:14 pm: |
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I really think that Hillary's display of emotion was genuine because she was feeling sorry for herself. She thought she had it made, and all of a sudden an upstart bursts her balloon.
Neither she nor Obama are automatons. They are human and sometimes it's their vulnerability that endears them to the Undecideds. Obama was doing some serious choking-up when during a recent interview he was asked what his deceased mother would think about his presidental campaign.
More than any other time in history will an election cause so many voters to do soul- searching, especially great numbers of black women. Their race has not been kind them, or have their men. Other women are their natural allies in the battle of the sexes. What will they find it in their heart to do? Identity with Michelle Obama? Probably. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2474
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 11:57 am: |
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Whether or not Hilary was faking or not, her response and especially Bill's illustrate a high level of white entitlement!
This sickens me, really! Barack Obama won, according to their logic, only because he is a man...but what about the other male Democratic candidates?
Was Hilary suppose to win just because she showed up?
To make matters worse, Gloria Steinem has the audacity to claim that, more or less, racism and race are irrelevant, and that Obama's win proves this, BUT discrimination against women is live and well! She even makes the point that black men received the right to the ballot before women....
This is foolery at its best, no?
White women married white men, no? And black women married black men, no?
What does this mean?
Although black men could vote, that is temporarily--remember lynching and the like, they worked for white people--white men and women. And the political power that black men had during Reconstruction--a mere ten years and in some cases less depending on the state--was NEVER sufficient that they could control an entire State, as did the husbands of white women....
And finally, at no point did they white women, including white suffragists, consider black women their equals! Need I say more?
What has happened to Carol Mosely Braun? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11163
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 03:06 pm: |
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Well, here we go, Yukio. I don't think the Clintons are claiming that Hillary won in New Hampshire solely because she was a woman. That's the conclusion the talking heads have reached.
And, as a man, you tread a very slippery slope when you try to fathom the logic of women. Whether you agree with Gloria Steinem or not, she is speaking for her peer group and this includes many professional black women who have been subjected to the "glass ceiling", courtesy of their male colleagues. To dismiss the impact that women will have on Hillary's chances, is like discounting the effect of black people on Obama's chances. IMO. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2475
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 08:30 pm: |
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I'm not trying to fathom logic of women. I am assessing Gloria Steinem's article. Michelle Obama is a professional black women, but she supports her husband, as does many professional black women.
Again, I have distinguishing not only race from gender, in general, but specifically black women from white women, Cynique. And that "glass ceiling " of which you speak is rarely buttressed by black men.
From bell hooks to Angela Davis, you will find the comment that white women have more power than black women, and thus Hilary's and her husband's chicanery doesn't account for the this real and long history of the exclusion of black professional women from white women's professional organizations....
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11164
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 10:39 pm: |
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OK. Maybe you should assess the rift between black women and black men.  This is about sexism. Whatever black women are backing Hillary, and in Chicago there is substantial support for her, it's because they want to side with someone who is advancing the idea that women are just as capable of being good leaders as these jive-ass men are.
For me, the over-the-top villifying of the Clintons by their haters goes in one ear and out the other because I think both sides are playing semantic games and that the playing of the race card by Obama's people is going to back fire on the Democrats if Obama wins the nomination. When the general election rolls around it might just boil down an "us" against "them" confrontation instead of the Democrats vs Republicans. All of this black bitchin about who meant "what" when they said "that" just fuels that possibility because it's a turn-off for Undecideds who want to focus on issues not on perceived or imagined racism.
At this point, I'm starting to lend an ear to John Edwards who is talking about the economy and the burden of the middleclass instead of who can out-change who. I don't want Huckabee turning democracy into a theocracy or John McCain having senior moments and forgetting his thought in the middle of a conference with Iranian leaders. Those are possible scenarios if the Republicans win again.. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 6105
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:10 am: |
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They need to leave NH behind and concentrate on Nevada where Senator Obama is way behind Senator Clinton.
(Remember that the next time your home is burglarized or your purse is snatched.
Tampering with an election is a CRIME!
In supposed backward countries they get upset about it. Here you get excuses.
You ain't ready! |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 6106
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 10:12 am: |
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I agree what was done in New Hampshire is done
(A CRIME was committed. When somebody steals your hubcaps you are screaming for capital punishment.
For shame! You don't deserve freedom and democracy!) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11165
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:17 pm: |
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In freedom and democracy, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Except if you're the judge. You're the one who isn't ready. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2476
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 12:58 pm: |
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Cynique,
First of all, my comments are not a recapitulation of what you can find in the news. Secondly, and more more importantly, my comment had to do with Steinem's framing of Hilary's lose as a race versus gender battle. Finally, Which ever way you put it, Hilary's and Bill's behavior bespeaks of an entitlement neither black women nor black men can speak to.
In a nutshell, please reply to what I have said not to that abstract crowd of voters, journalists, and that like that can be characterized as "Clinton Haters."
I don't hate I appreciate! |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2552
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 01:30 pm: |
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Yukio (and others), you might be interested in this wonderful interview with Gloria Steinem and Melissa Harris-Lacewell:
http://jackandjillpolitics.blogspot.com/2008/01/must-see-listen-hear-on-race-gen der-and.html
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11188
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 02:57 pm: |
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OK, Yukio. But from their view at the bottom of the totem poll, black women are not that empathetic with black men who've had to take a second seat to white women. Black women who support Hillary are for her because of her gender not her status. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9820
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 3 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 03:13 pm: |
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Yvettep,
Lacewell, a smart (and cute) sista who supports Obama, kicked Steinem's a$$ all OVER the joint on Democracy Now.
It was a pleasure to see Lacewell very persuasively throw all the fake BS White woman sisterhood crap back in Steinem's face.
Honestly, at times, Steinem appeared so thoroughly defeated and apologetic I kinda felt SORRY for her. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11190
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 03:18 pm: |
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The true test is if Hillary is the Dems presidential nominee, will women of all races make the difference in the outcome. It's easy for people to intellectualize and debate all of this but reality is what will decide the final outcome. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2477
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: 
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 06:37 pm: |
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Cynique, there is no but, really.
I'm not talking about why black women support Hilary, elder. I do, however, understand your point, and hope that these black women get their facts straight and history straight, whether or not they vote for Obama or Clinton.
It is past the time that people vote for some that looks like them or shares their sex.
I'm talkin about Steinem's poor comparison, which a middle-class, professional ivy league black women professor clearly and persuasively identified as rubbish.
Secondly, I also talking about the question of entitlement, that again, Professor Lacewell, again, both identified and disqualified in this piece.
Can I get a witness? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11193
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 07:27 pm: |
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Remember that Steinem is an elder, too; in her 70s. Suffice to say, her day is over. Her ideas are were the underpining of the feminist movement and old ideas die hard.
I wonder what kind of support Hillary draws from the lesbian community. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2558
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 07:53 am: |
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Yes, Cynique--I have been hearing that same thing, that maybe she is no longer as relevant for today's feminist movement(s).
Yukio and ABM, Dr. Harris-Lacewell certainly was persuasive, wasn't she. By the end of the segment I thought Ms. Steinem was 5 seconds away from coming over to the Obama camp. As it is she was practically begging, "Call me, OK?" LOL!
Seriously, though, I find this issue of relevancy of elder leaders fascinating and it is interesting how similar conversations are going on in different camps (feminist, Black civil rights, GLBT rights, etc). I have been working on a Black History Month piece where I explore this issue. I do not think that elder leaders are automatically irrelevant, just by virtue of being "old." But I think we need to do a better job of creating new roles for ourselves and others as folks ascend into elderhood... |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9821
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 10:56 am: |
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Yvettep,
Harris-Lacewell quite aptly demonstrated how so accustomed White feminists have been to using Black women that even after a CENTURY of various forms of female advocacy they remain CLUELESS of and INDIFFERENT to Black women special, specific concerns and perspectives, many of which, btw, are due to the active, willful and malevolent acts of many White women, both conservative and progressive.
As if envoking the names of and prior associations with great Black woman advocates like Soujourner Truth and Shirley Chisholm licenses Steinem and her ilk to trot out fallacious juxtapositions of race and gender SOLELY for the benefit of a White female presidential candidate. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11195
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:08 pm: |
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I find it equally disconcerting that black men think they can speak for black women. And they do this out of a sense of entitlement.  |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11196
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 12:45 pm: |
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Yes, Yvette, we elders are very often not on the same wave-length as those who have come after us.
Generally speaking, we tend to be more circumspect, while the new generation is straight ahead.
You google; we remember.
While sometimes we ask why, you ask why not?
You think if you can articulate a problem, you can solve it. We think that talk is cheap.
We are prodded by experience; you are propelled by enthusiasm.
We think that time brings change, you think that people bring change.
The really younger ones have little regard for anything that happened before they were born. We revere the past.
And so it goes.  |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2478
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 02:55 pm: |
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but, and I know I said there is no but, Harris-Lacewell, as ABM pointed out, also said that black feminists and black women have been fighting against Steinem's rhetoric for more than forty years.
In others words, its not just about a generational differences, but also an ideological...if you look at Alice Walker's notion--womanism--or before that, the Combahee River Collective's statement about both black male patriarchy, as well as white feminism it becomes clear that Steinem's rhetoric barely held sway among black women in the 60s.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11206
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 03:09 pm: |
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Attracting great numbers of black women into the fold was a failure of the feminist movement.
Most black women of Steinem's generation were not radical about sexual equality. They were tired of being strong. What they wanted was for their men to step up and take care of them They were also turned off by the prominent lesbian presence in this movement. |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2562
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 03:33 pm: |
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Cynique that is like poetry.  |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2563
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 03:34 pm: |
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(Ooops: I should be specific--I was talking about your 12:45 post...) |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9822
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 04:02 pm: |
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Yukio,
I don't recall whether this has already been cited here. But, interestingly, Alice Walker is an OBAMA supporter. She even did a very nice video explaining why she supports him. And Walker included within her reasons reference to, ironically, his "beautiful Black DAUGHTERS". |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9823
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 04:12 pm: |
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Yukio: "if you look at Alice Walker's notion--womanism--or before that, the Combahee River Collective's statement about both black male patriarchy, as well as white feminism it becomes clear that Steinem's rhetoric barely held sway among black women in the 60s."
Sistas weren't stupid. How the heck you going to logically seperate 'evil White men' from the women who help made them and they help make? |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 631
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 05:25 pm: |
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Elaine Brown, former Black Panther writes quite eloquently about the struggle between gender and race for black women.
Brown tells how in the early days of the Panthers, women were routinely beaten, raped and disrespected by men in the movement. Brown says she felt obligated to remain quiet because of the larger goal of working for racial equality.
Black women, according to Brown, are expected to support black men at all costs. This is echoed in the statement by Jesse Jackson, junior that was posted. There is no recognition on his part that black women might put a victory for their gender first. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11210
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 06:19 pm: |
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Very true! This is why all of these black men trying to shame black women for not supporting Obama need to stfu and get their own motives in order. |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 632
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 07:21 pm: |
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Do black men feel the same kind of loyalty to black women? I can't say it works both ways. Would black men be supporting an African American female candidate? Ask Cynthia McKinney.
And for all HRC's faults, the "entitlement" argument holds no sway with me.
Men of all races, ages and sizes feel entitled on a daily basis. Lots of guys call it called "my perogative" |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11212
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 08:05 pm: |
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U Go, Girl! |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 633
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, January 17, 2008 - 08:11 pm: |
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^5!! |
Yvettep
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2564
Registered: 01-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 08:17 am: |
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"All the Women Are White; All the Blacks Are Men; But Some of Us Are Brave"...
Yes, definitely neither the (largely White leadership) feminist movements nor the Black (largely male-leadership) Civil Rights movements can point with pride to taking Black women seriously or treating us with more than token respect. Of course we have to be "brave" and speak/do for and depend on ourselves.
And of course, this is a challenge, as all-Black-female groups soon reveal other divisions, efforts to silence etc. This, largely because we Black women are not monolithic either and the diversity of viewpoints/ideologies, parenthood status, age, ability/disability, sexual orientation, skin tone/hair style, socioeconomic status, etc etc etc can make even these coalitions fall apart. |
Enchanted
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 1135
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: 
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 08:38 am: |
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Robynmarie, on e thing I despise about your posts you fail to note that a "victory for WHITE WOMEN's gender" does not translate to a victory for Black Womens' gender--you pretend no differnce--but the laydy from Princeton who took on Gloria Steinem pointed out that very fact. That why I find your post about 'gender' sickening. Hillary Clinton dont care shit abot black women never did an her being presdent will not men more to black daughters than Michelle being first lady IN THIS INSTANCE I woul like to see a woman president but not MISS ANNE you soun like a fool talkng about gender minus white women hate for black women
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Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 634
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 09:53 am: |
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I wasn't talking about Gloria Steinem or the woman from Princeton.
I was talking about Elaine Brown, and I highly recommend her book A TASTE OF POWER-as well the newest edition of Webster's Dictionary. |
Yukio
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Yukio
Post Number: 2479
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 09:55 am: |
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ABM:
I didn't know that Walker was supporting Obama, that would be an interesting read.
Cynique, it seems you have found support in your folly.
There seems to be some confusion here. At the individual level, we can speak of men having greater power than women.
But once we add "race," ethnicity, and class to this discussion, especially at the structural level, we have to admit that white women have more power than all other groups besides their own white men!
Who are more organized than white women, from the PTA to ERA movement? These organized white women were the same ones, often as much as their husbands, sons, etc.., who supported and maintained segregation...there is so much scholarship that illustrates how white women organizations--both social and political--excluded black women, and as Harris-Lacewell stated, demanded black women to join white women on the white women's terms!
Of course, most people neither live their lives in tandem with structural issues nor do they often think about these issues as they encounter the daily circumstance of interpersonal discrimination. |
Robynmarie
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Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 635
Registered: 04-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 09:59 am: |
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Yvettep-
Even though I don't agree with all of their message, I do believe the black sororities, Deltas, AKAs, Zetas etc are good examples of black female coalitions, mentoring, sisterhood and African American female empowerment.
All the African American sororities have long histories of public service, too. |
Yvettep
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Username: Yvettep
Post Number: 2567
Registered: 01-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 10:07 am: |
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Robynmarie, yes I agree about Black sororities--even though I, myself, was "Me Phi Me" in college. (Much to the chagrin of the Deltas and AKAs in my family...)
But I have heard that even within many of these organizations all is not always goodness and light depending on how "different" you are. For example, recently I became aware of the sorority Alpha Chi Upsilon that was formed by lesbian and bisexual women of color who did not feel welcome in the established Greek letter organizations.
That's just the nature of the beast, I guess. But it is crucial that we find ways to build bridges else we just fracture into "a million little pieces." (Wow, I'm all about the book title references today--LOL!) |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6418
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 10:17 am: |
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I think it's a generational thing, this shift in Black women's attitudes. Black women are looking back on the civil rights movement and they are seeing that it hasn't worked one iota for them. And so they feel they need a change. As for feminism, no one knows how feminism will work for Black women; because feminism hasn't really been explored as a central issue for us yet. As Robyn suggested, Black women have always been explicitly and implicitly intimidated into choosing race over gender, no matter how much it threatened their safety or went against their interests. Consequently, feminism today is a brand new venture for Black women, esp. outside of Black lit/academia. And so there is no way anyone can say for sure what feminism would bring to Black women (en masse). Infact when I hear people making the same arguments, it sounds like more intimidation tactics, more of the same.
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Enchanted
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 1136
Registered: 11-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 10:27 am: |
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what do black women "enmasse" get out o puttng Hillary Clinton in the white house an not Michalle Obama an her two dauhters? this is what I dont understand an since black women hav black sons why woul they not want him to see a black man an black family in white house? the SIGHT of Hilary Clinton means absoultuely nothing to me jus more white woman is superior |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 636
Registered: 04-2006
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Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 11:01 am: |
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Good points, Tonya.
I am not sure I could define modern feminism. The "white" version of feminism is mostly concerned with sex issues, ie gay marriage, abortion rights, prosecution of sexual crimes, etc.
Perhaps one component of "black" feminism could be equal pay for equal work. Women of all races, still earn sixty cents for every dollar men make. Also, perhaps African American "feminists" would take the lead on revolutionizing public schools.
BTW, I never think of HRC as a feminist per se. She married into power and influence, and I would think that is something feminists would abhor. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11213
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 11:56 am: |
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Nobody is agreeing that white women can speak for black women, Yukio. The fact that in the past what white feminists were saying did not strike a note with great numbers of black women proves that black women rejected their messsage because black women realized they had different histories from white ones. White women wanted to be liberated from being put on a pedestal by their men. Black women, on the other hand wanted to be elevated by their men.
Black men who are disparaging white feminists are in effect saying to them to not be putting ideas about gender in the heads of black women. Let them stay in their place.
Black men haven't been fighting black women's battles, now all of a sudden they want to tell black women to forget their gender and support their race because a black man deserves to be president. But this is a choice black women are ENTITLED to make themselves - for whatever reason.
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Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11214
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 12:09 pm: |
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It's no wonder that anybody like "enchanted" who's blinded with hate for HRC and who can't write a complete sentence is unable to understand that everybody doesn't agree with her sappy point about black children needing a perfect little black family in the white house so they can feel all warm and fuzzy. |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9824
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 12:23 pm: |
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Robynmarie
So you refuse to support ANY Black man, no matter how supportive he has been of Black women, because of the evildoings of SOME Black men?
There are much higher percentages of Black women occupying position of leadership over Black men than there are are amongst virtually any OTHER American race/nationality group. A third to half the Black elected officials in the Chicagoland area are female. There are similar percentages of Black females in the US Congressional Black Caucus. And there are geometically HIGHER percentages of Black women leading Black churches than there are White, Hispanic, Asian, Arab and other women leading their respective religious institutions.
And it's interesting how foks like you, Steinem & Co. have conveniently forgetton the very seat Obama holds in the Senate was held by a Black WOMAN less than 10 years ago. Former Illinois US Senator Carol Mosely-Braun was highly supported by MANY African American men. (I personally know a Black MAN who help managed the financing of her 1992 senatorial campaign.) And it was via the help of many Black men and women and many other non-Blacks that she defeated a respected, longtime encumbent Alan Dixon.
The smart, charismatic Mosely-Braun was so widely popular, liked and respected that she was for a brief time the female equivalent of Obama. Had she not incurred a series of PR fiascos (e.g., allegations of her cavorting with and receiving $$$ from some African dictator, improper use of campaign funds, administrative mismanagement, neglecting her poor/sick mother, etc. ), Carol Mosely-Braun (who briefly made a run at the 2004 Democratic Presidential nomination) might have became a very credible, formidable presidential candidate.
And, UNLIKE Hillary Clinton, Carol Mosely-Braun earned ALL of her political stripes WITHOUT her having a ex-president husband. |
Enchanted
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 1137
Registered: 11-2005
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 12:28 pm: |
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what do black women "enmasse" get out o puttng Hillary Clinton in the white house an not Michalle Obama an her two dauhters? this is what I dont understand |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 11217
Registered: 01-2004
Rating:
Votes: 2 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 01:29 pm: |
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Why are people getting all caught up in these "he did" - "she said" exchanges?
The bottom line is that a black woman is ENTITLED to support whomever she wants to for president.
She doesn't have to justify or apologize or appease, or try and rack up more points in a debate with black men who put forth specious arguments.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9826
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 01:38 pm: |
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Tonya: "Black women are looking back on the civil rights movement and they are seeing that it hasn't worked one iota for them."
Tonya,
You're out of your gotdayam mind if you actually think that Black women did not benefit from what was wrought of the Civil Rights Movement.
Chile, Please!
Prior to the CRM, you wouldn't have been able to eat, drink, sleep, own property, reside, shop and attend your school of your preference in MANY areas of this country.
We're arguing about whether to vote for Obama or Hillary. But your Black a$$ wouldn't have been caught DEAD near a polling booth south of the Mason-Dixon line 40 years ago.
It wasn't Gloria Steinem's uppity White a$$ getting attacked by dogs and firehoses so Black wommen like YOU can vote and take a sh*t where they chose to. Those were BLACK people, many of whom were MEN.
It was the great skill, courage and sacrifices made and earned by Black men and women that made much of the Women's Movement possible. Because Blacks foks gave all the marching, protesting and speeches the energy, attention and national and worldwide attention and credibility it had from the 50's - 70's.
And, ironically, it was Black MEN like Emmitt Till, MLK, Medgar Evers, James Cheney and others who sacrificed their LIVES so that sistas like you can have the freedom to be stupid enuff to believe and support the bvllsh*t the Gloria Steinems of the world be spewing. |
Troy
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 1061
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 01:40 pm: |
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This is a fascinating conversation.
Yvettep, Cynique's post was like poetry. I'll go back and give it 5 stars just so more people will notice it.
I would like all of you to consider that Black men, for whatever reason, are far worse off that Black women. Please look in corporate America, or the higher education system African American born males in these setting is almost an anachronism.
I don’t need to talk about our percentages in jail relative to women.
Black women out number Black in universities, indications are this disparity will continue to increase.
This is a crisis situation.
Of course it is no picnic of Black women either. But this is really not about who is catching more hell Black men or Black women. It is whether we will step up and support one another.
Of course this support does not come at the expense of each other; male/female, rich/poor, educated/uneducated, old/young, light skinned/dark skinned, we are all in the same damn boat y’all – and boat this boat has sprung some serious leaks. We are sinking fast and many of us have not even noticed, even though we are standing sideways in several feet of water.
If it means anything; IF a viable Black woman candidate were running I would absolutely vote for her. If she was running against Obama. I would vote for one of the two.
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Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9827
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 02:09 pm: |
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Troy,
Black women live longer, healthier lives than Black men. Black women are more likely to graduate college, are more likely to be employed. And on average, college-educated Black men earn just $3,000 more per year than college-educated Black women.
By comparison, the average college-educated White man earn $27,000 more than the average college-educated White woman. And there are similar sex-gender differences between other races of college-educated people.
Yes. America is indeed a patriachy. But Black men are no where NEAR the top of it.
Btw: AMAZINGLY, the average college-educated Black woman earns $3,000 MORE than the college-educated White woman. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6419
Registered: 07-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 03:04 pm: |
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Hey Robyn
I didn't make a distinction between a "Black" or "white version" of feminism. I pointed out that nobody knows how feminism will affect Blk women; there's no history for such. And when Hillary married Bill they had the same power and influence. Bill told the story the other day. He was running for office for the first time and he was far from rich. But, he joked, Miss Hillary still married his indebted ol' butt, lol! |
Abm
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Abm
Post Number: 9829
Registered: 04-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 03:33 pm: |
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Troy,
I'll add so long as +70% of Black males are being raised solely by Black females, a phenomenon that Black men and women are EQUALLY responsible for, Black men will fall further and further behind Black women and everyone else. |
Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 637
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 03:45 pm: |
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Abm-So you refuse to support ANY Black man, no matter how supportive he has been of Black women, because of the evildoings of SOME Black men?
Robynmarie-Did I say that? Did I mention Gloria Steinem?
I was talking about the Black Panthers and other nationalist organizations of the 1960's and how women in those movements were treated. It goes to show that black women have a "double consciousness" of race and gender.
Black women then and now are supposed to be the ones who uphold black men and keep the black family together at any cost. |
Tonya
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Tonya
Post Number: 6420
Registered: 07-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 04:21 pm: |
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"Perhaps one component of "black" feminism could be equal pay for equal work. Women of all races, still earn sixty cents for every dollar men make. Also, perhaps African American "feminists" would take the lead on revolutionizing public schools."
Equal pay has always been a staple of feminism, past and present. Revolutionizing the public school system seems like a strong position a "womanist" might take, though Hillary has been vowing to do just that continuously on the stump. I'm currently torn between the two, womanism and feminism.
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Robynmarie
Veteran Poster
Username: Robynmarie
Post Number: 639
Registered: 04-2006
Rating:
Votes: 1 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, January 18, 2008 - 04:33 pm: |
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I guess I have (temporairly) given up on those particular "isms".
I would like to see women activists pay more attention to (mental) health issues like depression and doing something about these failing public schools. Our kids are in Cali are dropping out at an alarming rate. Last I heard it was up to 60% of AA kids don't graduate high school.
And it not because these kids are stupid or unmotivated. It is because the whole structure of the classroom is old school and this generation of youngsters can't relate.
HRC has stated that within her education proposals, she would take a serious look at the antequated nature of the American classroom. I hope she does. |
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