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Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 428
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 01:22 pm: | 
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How do you feel about writers shamelessly promoting themselves and their books? I'm talking spam, ridiculously long bylines, pimping messageboards and other people's blogs, and just refusing to shut up about their books. At what point does it become shameless self promotion and not just guerilla marketing? Does it even work?
I look forward to your comments. |
Afrika
Regular Poster
Username: Afrika
Post Number: 99
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 01:33 pm: |
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Peace and Blessings,
Yes, it works Emanuel. If you know what you doing and your mission.
Cordially,
Afrika Midnight Asha Abney |
Afrika
Regular Poster
Username: Afrika
Post Number: 100
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 02:32 pm: |
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Greetings Emanuel,
Also, if you do not promote yourself and what you do, how are folks going to know about you and what you have to offer to the world? Many people think just creating a book or website that that is it. There is more to it then that. Let's not forget that not alot of know how to use the Internet or know how to promote. So, if someone is subjected to think that they are getting spammed, I am so sorry, but they have to do what they have to do in order to get a name for themselves and what they do. They have to expand their networking and clients.
Having a website or blog is just the pudding on the cake. Now that you have a website to promote yourself. You have to do promote it and let folks know about you, etc. If you just sit back and relax and except for a miracle. That's great. But in this time. You have to do more than that!
Thank you once again.
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5792
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 02:49 pm: |
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I'm talking spam, ridiculously long bylines, pimping messageboards and other people's blogs, and just refusing to shut up about their books--
(Kind of what Madison Avenue does with conflakes, cars, washing detergent, etc.
Or what the major publishers do.
It's called ballyhoo.
It's the American way. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 429
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 02:51 pm: |
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Interesting Afrika. When I get spammed, I just add the sender to my spam list and never open the e-mail. I find the opposite to be true. If someone annoys me with lots of unsolicited e-mails, chances are I'm never going to buy his or her products. There was a study done at the Wharton School of Management of couple of years ago that basically concluded what you say, companies spam because it works.
I agree that you can't just build sites and expect people to come. However, I think the solution might be traditional advertising, linking to other people's sites, and getting out there to do signings while handing out marketing materials. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10724
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 03:12 pm: |
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People who relentlessly self-promote are a total turn-off to me. This was my beef with kola boof. It remains to be seen if it worked for her. I think at some point a person has to let their work speak for itself. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5793
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 03:55 pm: |
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People who relentlessly self-promote are a total turn-off to me. This was my beef with kola boof. It remains to be seen if it worked for her. I think at some point a person has to let their work speak for itself.
(She's signing with one of the biggest publishers in the business--
I'd say it was worth it) |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10730
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:04 pm: |
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I'm waiting for this rumor to be for confirmed, chrishayden. Do you have any documentation?? |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 431
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:18 pm: |
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What are the ways authors can promote themselves and their books WITHOUT shame? |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5798
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:22 pm: |
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I'm waiting for this rumor to be for confirmed, chrishayden. Do you have any documentation??
(What kind of documentation do you need? A signed contract? I don't think I am privy to that sort of info.
What do you want? Maybe faithful Nafisa Goma will step up)
What are the ways authors can promote themselves and their books WITHOUT shame?
(I don't see why you would be ashamed to promote your own book. After all, if you are proud enough to write one, shouldn't you be proud enough to tell people about it?) |
Afrika
Veteran Poster
Username: Afrika
Post Number: 101
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:37 pm: |
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Greetings,
Interesting perspective. Anyone has there one points of view as it relates to this discussion. However, I actually am not promoting my books. I am letting them speak or themselves. What I am constantly promoting are other individuals, organizations or companies. As well as doing other things that I do best.
Different stroke for, different folk.
Take care and be at peace!
Stay blessed~
Afrika Midnight Asha Abney |
Jmho
Veteran Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 304
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 05:10 pm: |
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Emanuel wrote:
When I get spammed, I just add the sender to my spam list and never open the e-mail. I find the opposite to be true. If someone annoys me with lots of unsolicited e-mails, chances are I'm never going to buy his or her products.
I'm with you Emanuel, the more I get spammed, the less likely, I'll ever purchase said product, service, etc.
Good thing we block e-mail addresses, set up e-mail filters, have the junk e-mail folder, etc., because over zealous people will cross the line from advertising over to harassment (i.e. spamming). |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10733
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 05:27 pm: |
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I also agree with Emanuel, JMHO.
And in response to chrishayden's babbling, maybe Emanuel can tell us where his cousin found out about Kola supposedly signing with Viking Press. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 432
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 05:33 pm: |
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I'm sorry, who is my cousin? I only learned about Kola's deal by reading this board like everyone else. Who started that post? Not me. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10737
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 05:45 pm: |
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OK, my bad. Sorry, Emanuel. That was "Enchanted" who posted that about her friend saying that kola had signed with Viking Press. That explains everything. Enchanted and Nafisa Goma and Kola are interchangeable, speaking of relentless self-promotion.  |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 21
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 06:34 pm: |
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This is a puzzling question. Why is it that paid maketing by a third party is considerd more legitimate than self promotion. The minute money changed hands makes it automatically a tainted positive message. On its face that's less credible, because it always positive.
I get emails from B&N and amazon pushing certain books. Those were probable paid for by the publishers. Same difference. |
Libralind2
Veteran Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 981
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 06:56 pm: |
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I kicked an author off one of my groups for that shamless self promotion bullshyet because that is not why the author claimed she joined the group. It would have been fine for her to tell us about her book once but by the third time..and NO other comments....THEN she had the NERVE to have a 'tude cause we booted her...geesh
LiLi |
Afrika
Veteran Poster
Username: Afrika
Post Number: 102
Registered: 06-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 07:03 pm: |
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Greetings,
All I can say is don't hate the player, hate the game. No matter what you say or do there are going to be tons of groups, sites and forums for one to promote themselves and what they do. So, instead of attacking someone or calling it spam, so on and so forth. I am down with anyone promoting themselves. Afterall, that is how we have to make a name for ourselves. While, might lay back and relax, others actively promote their products whether you get tried of the messages or not. They have to do what they have to do in order to make name for themselves and make it to bestsellers and make those big millions!
So, I am not going to hate either the player nor the game. I am down with it. Nor, will I attack anyone for what they have to do!
Thanks for your time.
Keep up the great work!
Cordially,
Afrika Midnight Asha Abney |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 579
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 08:05 pm: |
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Emanuel wrote:
What are the ways authors can promote themselves and their books WITHOUT shame?
I find targeted advertising to be very effective. By that I mean, know your audience. If you write Romance, for example, join RWA (Romance Writers of America) and/or forums that focus on Romance writers/writing. Not only is that a venue to promote your work, but also an opportunity to grow and improve your skill as a Romance writer through intense, focused discussions with other writers of the genre.
Pre-publication reviews and press releases are highly effective in getting the word out about an upcoming book. (If you're commercially published, your editor will submit ARCs/galleys/UPPs for pre-pub reviews, with your publicist as point-of-contact).
Post-publication reviews are highly effective in building a readership.
It's a big help if the author has an Internet presence (website/blog). And if the author participates in forums, such as this, along the way they've no doubt made a few cyberfriends. Contact them offline or PM them (ahem - Troy, you really need to incorporate a PM feature to this forum) and ask if they'd like to receive a copy of your book. Most likely they'll say yes. And when your book arrives, they'll delight in telling their family and friends that you, the author, are one of their "forum chums". You can politely ask them to write a little review of your book and put it up on Amazon or BN or Borders or wherever, at their discretion. Don't think that only "professional" reviewers' opinions of your book count. For many, a favorable review by an "everyday" person carries equal, if not more, weight in their decision to buy your book.
Attend as many book fairs and writing conferences as possible. If you can, have copies of your book on-hand to give away. I repeat, GIVE AWAY. Everyone likes freebies. Never underestimate the power of word-of-mouth advertising. Those twenty or so copies you give away helps build name recognition, and that invariably translates to sales.
Also, have a business card. I like one-sided gloss myself. On the gloss side is my book cover. The matte side has ordering info, my website, and an email address that I set up specifically for "casual contacts".
Always, always be gracious. You, the author, are NOT important. YOUR READERS ARE IMPORTANT. It doesn't cost a dime to thank people for their interest in your work, take a moment to chat with them, sign a napkin and/or pose for a picture. Even if they don't/can't buy your book at the moment, they'll remember you were courteous, friendly, and approachable. (They'll remember if you were a self-absorbed asshole, too!)
Lastly, to echo what others have said, I much prefer the soft-sell myself as well. I find that a little advertising, when done right, really does go a long way.
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Enchanted
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Enchanted
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 11-2005
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 08:14 pm: |
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cynique fyi Rebecca O'Meara is top publicist at Viking Press I doubt she would lie that he new assignment assigned by Viking Penguin there new author kola boof "sexy part of the bible" Rebecca told me herself maybe urbanscribe can find out r better yet Zane since shes no it all
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Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 433
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 10:41 pm: |
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The thing about spam via e-mail is that it is illegal and punishable as a federal offense. I know it's tempting to e-mail that group of people when you get a book-related e-mail and the "TO" field has all those potential buyers but you're a lot better off if you ask people to subscribe to your online newsletter. Solicitation e-mails are supposed to have a physical address and a way for readers to opt out.
Online writer groups are spammer magnets. The thing about it is that most of the members are writers and trying to make themselves instead of looking for books to buy. Shameless self promotion in writer groups is basically useless.
I've left my share of drive-by "buy my book" postings on messageboards and blogs a few years ago but now I at least try to have discussions on those boards as well. The drive-bys are annoying.
I think the main reason people do the shameless self promotion to the point of annoyance is that it's free. They just need to remember that the site of their names can also create a negative response when they use unethical tactics.
Great advice Urbanscribe. Giving away books is tough for self-pubbers because a lot them are part-time writers with day jobs and don't have the budget to give away books. Of course, it would make more sense to release books when you have a marketing budget but that's another story. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10739
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 11:23 pm: |
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"enchanted":  and furthermore  |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 948
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:02 am: |
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Emanuel this is an interesting subject. Shameless self promotion and Spam are the children of bad behavior.
I had dinner with a couple of authors and some publishing industry folk, in a fairly decent restaurant. One author got up from our table (a group of 5) and went to a few other tables in the restaurant, introduced himself and proceeded to sell his book. This is shameless self promotion. He actually sold one book. I would not do this, nor would I recommend this tactic to others. Though I'm sure someone will argue he was "successful".
An unsolicited email or two does not bother me. What does bother me is when the spam is sent to me repeatedly and when the sender obviously did not attempt to gauge my interest in their email.
People have taken liberties with the board I would consider "shameless self promotion" and others have promoted their work is a more classy format. I dislike the abusers and the classy folk appeal to me.
Many authors don't even bother to mention their work here; which I think is a mistake - but I understand the apprehension.
Sometime's I'll meet a poster off line, and only then do I learn they are a published author.
From my experience MOST authors are NOT shameless self promoters. If anything, authors are just the opposite and could benefit from being a little more outspoken about their published work. I think Urban_scribe's advise is a good way to get started.
The bottom line is that some tactics described as "promotion" is simply rude behavior. Whether it is selling a book to unsuspecting restaurant patrons, repeatedly emailing someone unwanted junk, or participating in a conversation by pumping your book and not contributing anything of value to the conversation is simply rude. The perpetrators are just too ignorant to recognize this or too greedy to care.
Now technology has taking this bad behavior to another level. One can engage a computer program to behave poorly their behalf 24 hours a day.
At least 95% of the new subscribers to this discussion board are spammers. Fully 90% of my email is spam. This type of spamming is the worst. While a few individuals may benefit, society is much worse off due to the waste of resources required to combat this crap.
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Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 434
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 08:55 am: |
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Whoa! Going table to table at a restaurant seems really desperate. I walked into a couple of barber shops and beauty salons and sold books and that was pushing it for me. Trying to sell to unsuspecting people is not my thing. Face-to-face selling is difficult enough in an environment where you're supposed to be selling. I might be more comfortable handing those people a bookmark or postcard with my info. Maybe if I was depending on book sales to feed my family...
I prefer selling at release parties, bookstore signings, book fairs, and especially cultural events where people are selling things a lot more expensive than books. When people are selling, say, art work for thousands of dollars, it's nice to be selling a book for $13.00 when patrons don't want to walk out empty handed. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 949
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 01:35 pm: |
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I'm not sure I would describe my man as desperate. He is certainly agressive and in that circumstance -- ill mannered.
In the local, old school barber, walking in to sell a book would be fine. People was in selling all kind of stuff all the time...
I also go to a high end men’s salon a few blocks away -- in that environment I would expect you to be escorted out.
Emanuel, have you ever just set up a table on a busy street or commercial area to sell your book? Do you consider this desperate or aggressive?
I met a sister on 125th street in Harlem selling her book. She was actually in the middle of the street hawking her book. As I walked past her the first time she said "Hey, you look like you can read... why don't you buy my book?" I could not help but smile, but I kept walking.
On my way back I brought the book. A few days later I was in DC and the HUB (Howard University's Book Store). The very same woman was scheduled to do a reading there a few days later.
This was a couple of years ago. At the time it struck me as unusual, that a person who would willing to sell a book on the street would also have the wherewithal to arrange a signing at Howard University. Today I would not bat an eye at apparent dichotomy in tactics (traditional/non traditional).
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Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 435
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 01:52 pm: |
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Emanuel, have you ever just set up a table on a busy street or commercial area to sell your book?
I never have but I would if I lived in New York where it's more sociably acceptable. In Cleveland I would look odd selling books on a busy street corner. I think it's aggressive but not necessarily desperate. Depends on what the author is saying at the table. If there were desperate pleas to buy the book, it might sound desperate but if the author told me how the book might benefit ME, I'd consider it aggressive and unorthodox but not desperate. |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 951
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 03:29 pm: |
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Hey man someone has to be the first to sell a book on street -- even in NY City.
They have strip malls, or an MLK blvd, in Shaker Heights don't they? |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 580
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 03:33 pm: |
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FYI - ANYONE can set up a table and sell books ANYWHERE in the USofA. No vendor's license required. You're protected by the 1st Amendment: Freedom of speech and freedom of the press. |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 436
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 03:38 pm: |
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Next book, I will be a little more aggressive just not to the point of annoyance.
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 952
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 04:32 pm: |
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I heard about this one author who sold her books at gun point. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10746
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 05:20 pm: |
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The self-publishing phenomenon has spawned a calibre of people who become so closely identified with the books they have given birth to that to reject their books is to rejects them. And, not surprising, these are the same type of people who can't deal with rejection. |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5825
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 10:17 am: |
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Next book, I will be a little more aggressive just not to the point of annoyance.
(You never want to annoy somebody--you want them to buy the book. You are trying to make a sale, or at least get them to look at it.
Writers hate to think this but it has something in common with the way you would sell anything else, even common items.
What type of things are you thinking about trying?) |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 438
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Saturday, December 01, 2007 - 01:02 pm: |
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Working with Troy and Relentless Aaron on distribution and selling, doing more signings, more events, more traveling, and more traditional advertising.
Events that are not necessarily book events are particularly appealing to me, stuff like cultural events and art events.
Last year I appeared on the local Radio One station. Next book, I'm aiming my sites on getting on TV. |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 22
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 10:19 pm: |
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I was a a black book festival in Dallas and one female author there said that she put on her sexiest clothes in the morning before she went to work and hit the local gas/convenience stores.
Many men gather there early before they head out to construction/other jobs to gas up, get coffee etc. She sells her books to these guys who apparently think that buying a book will lead to something else. Afetr she is done with selling the books, she heads home, changes and goes to her job.
She is selling a lot of books this way. Some of the authors are doing flea markets, beauty salons and barber shops.
It's wide open and these same authors also show up for book festivals and do bookstore signings. They write credible books, but view them as a pure product after they are written and are not so caught up in the "art". Books, candles, gift baskets etc., all can be sold in a variety of fashions.
This past weekend I was on a morning TV show in a maket of about 400,000 and had signings at a Barnes & Noble, Hastings and a public library. I have an ad on AALBC and Cushcity.com right now.
I have several srotes and festivals targeted this year. I may try pay-per-click again, but I am not sure.
www.DTPollard.com |
Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 444
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 01:16 am: |
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That's interesting. We had a conversation about buying books based on authors' looks last year. Check it out here:
http://www.thumperscorner.com/discus/messages/11221/15850.html
Congrats on all the exposure Henry. |
Jmho
Veteran Poster
Username: Jmho
Post Number: 305
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 10:09 am: |
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Troy wrote:
I had dinner with a couple of authors and some publishing industry folk, in a fairly decent restaurant. One author got up from our table (a group of 5) and went to a few other tables in the restaurant, introduced himself and proceeded to sell his book.
I would be really annoyed, if another restaurant patron came over to my table, and tried to sell me a book, or anything, for that matter. Beyond tacky. I would also be tempted to alert management. Many establishments have a no solicitation rule or policy. And, that's so people don't to annoy (or harass, as some sellers don't take, the "no, thank you" very well and keep on with their sales pitch) the other patrons/customers.
Sure the author sold a book, but just think of how many potential buyers he turned off, too. |
Libralind2
Veteran Poster
Username: Libralind2
Post Number: 986
Registered: 09-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, December 03, 2007 - 10:52 am: |
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Im turned off..and I was a million miles away..so to speak
LiLi |
Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5838
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 03:30 pm: |
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Sure the author sold a book, but just think of how many potential buyers he turned off, too.
(How many would he have sold if he'd just sat there?) |
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