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Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 405
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 06:23 pm: | 
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When you view a bestsellers list can you be sure it's legit? A couple of authors have told me that for the right price you can BUY your way to popular bestsellers lists regardless of the authentic stats reported by bookstores or the results of in store and online sales. Could this be true? I imagine having your book appear on a bestsellers list could increase sales but you have to wonder if you'll get a return on your investment if you shell out the payola.
Any thoughts? |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10676
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 06:55 pm: |
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Just another facet of the book business that inspires my wonder. I wouldn't be surprised if this was true, because nothing is what it seems anymore; not surprising in a society where money talks and making it big is the number one priority. |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10677
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 07:18 pm: |
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And what does our girl Oprah do to further the cause of struggling black authors? Her latest book selection is 973-page "The Pillars Of The World", by famous best-selling Welsh author Ken Follett. Of course her endorsement will send this novel, which came out in 1989, soaring back to the best-seller list, as the rich get richer. |
Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 570
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 07:19 pm: |
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Bestseller is a broad term; like all broad terms the word is deceptive. For instance, a book can be an ESSENCE bestseller. By simply dropping the word Essence and calling the book a bestseller, it would lead most to believe that the book was/is a national bestseller. At the same time, it wouldn't be an untruth that the book was/is in fact a bestseller.
As far as paying to get on bestseller lists, I've never heard of that and really don't see the point in doing so. Unless it's on the national level, paying to be on just any bestseller list is unlikely to translate to enough sales to make the "bribe" worth it. If you pay to get on national bestseller lists, your pockets better be deep, deep, deep; and that still is unlikely to translate to enough sales to make the pay-off worth it.
One thing that publishers do pay for, in hopes of having their titles hit national bestseller lists, is preferred bookstore placement. That's a common, widely-known practice. Although smaller publishers view it as unfair because they don't have the advertising budget to pay thousands of dollars for preferred bookstore placement as the major houses do, it is perfectly legal. Just a classic case of the big guy beating up on the little guy...
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Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 929
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 09:46 pm: |
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I can say that AALBC.com bestseller's list is legit: http://aalbc.com/books/bestsellers.htm.
I just take the sales report from Amazon and sort the books by sales.
As an aside, it is interesting how few publishers actually promote the fact they are an AALBC.com best selling book. I'm sure I sell more books, certainly more titles, than the majority of the Essence reporting stores.
I used to include B&N sales, but that was too much work and I used to also include books I sold myself, but that skewed the bestselling books to those I sold directly.
I no longer sell book via B&N (B&N f'ed around, changed affiliate partners breaking thousands of links on my site, so f'em now) and I rarely sell book directly today.
No one has ever tried to bride me to get on the list. I'm sure people who know me well enough, also know better than to ask.
People do game the system: It is probably common knowledge, for example, that authors make sure the do readings at and "donate books" to the Essence reporting stores to improve the probablility of making the list.
How many times have we seen authors ask folks to buy books on Amazon during a specfic time so that the book reaches a certian rank. However fleeting, a high rank is a cool marketing tool.
Urban, I can't tell you how many authors who have told me they rearrange their own books on book store shelves and get others to do it on their behalf in other stores.
Or how about getting a few friends to go into a store to inquire about a book to get the store's owner to order some copies.
And E, about buying your way on the list. I have heard stories. I've also heard stories about buying your way onto national radio programs, and more. Oh yeah, it gets gangsta out there.
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Urban_scribe
AALBC .com Platinum Poster
Username: Urban_scribe
Post Number: 571
Registered: 05-2006
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 10:51 pm: |
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Troy wrote
Urban, I can't tell you how many authors who have told me they rearrange their own books on book store shelves and get others to do it on their behalf in other stores.
Yeah, I've heard of that, and the one about authors sending their friends and relatives into stores to ask for their book. I've also heard of authors whose books are NOT stocked in bookstores, so they go in and sneak a copy on to the shelf. Talk about desperation!
But check it, if somebody does want to buy the book, and those odds are slim, when the book is scanned at the register it won't be in the store's system. Then the manager is called over, checks their purchase orders, realizes what the author did, and throws the book in the garbage.
The first time I heard about authors doing this was in 2004. I thought I'd never stop laughing!
What about the one where authors announce having book signings that don't exist? Some really go to the extreme. The print up and pass out fliers, announce the signing on their blog/website. Then word gets back to the bookstore where the imaginary signing was supposed to be held. Now the bookstore buyer has to damage-control the situation, in some cases they're forced to order a few copies of the books because people come in and really want the book.
These tactics may work short-term, but in the longrun I think they cast the author in a very bad light.
Now as for AALBC's bestseller list, which I didn't know existed, have you ever contacted the publishers to let them know their titles made your list? Maybe if they knew about it, they would mention it more; use it as a marketing tool. It certainly won't hurt.
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Hen81
Newbie Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 10:58 pm: |
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Bestsellers lists are what they are, lists. Most lists describe how they are compiled in the print at the bottom. I have been on a couple of bestseller lists. Three times in the Dallas Morning News and once in ESSENCE extended hardcover fiction list in October 2007 with my book Rooftop Diva - A Novel of Triumph After Katrina.
I took no overt action to get onto the ESSENCE list and didn't know I was on it until I got an email from someone in California wanting to know how I as a self-published author made the list.
I made it and use it in advertising, as I should because it was a fact. There may be some shady dealings going on out there, but sometimes things happen from hard work. I have very little time for payola etc. as I work full-time on a demanding sales job and do my book stuff nights and weekends.
http://www.essence.com/essence/books/0,16109,1661358,00.html
www.DTPollard.com |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 931
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Thursday, November 15, 2007 - 11:42 pm: |
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Urban_scribe actually I do not promote the AALBC.com bestsellers list as you describe (it is primarily a time thing). I do know thr bestsellers list is consitently one of the most popular pages visited and clicked links in my newsletter. I look forward to the AALBC.com best sellers list myself.
I heard about putting a book on a self, but that just seemed too silly to believe. I never heard that one first hand
Hen, usually things (good) happen from hard work ;-)
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Emanuel
Veteran Poster
Username: Emanuel
Post Number: 406
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 06:58 am: |
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Guilty as charged. I definitely had people walk into stores or call stores asking about my novel. It works. The bookstore might only order one or two copies from Baker & Taylor (B & T) or Ingram but a sale is a sale, and I haven't seen a return yet even though my books are 100% returnable. This works with libraries too as long as the books are distributed by one of their distributors, usually B & T.
I've never heard of people just putting their books on the shelf but I have heard of people putting postcard flyers in popular books of the same genre. Seems like it would be easier to just ask the manager to sell a few copies on consignment than to risk having a book get thrown away.
As far as besteller lists, I read them everywhere including AALBC.com, Amazon.com, BN.com, Bamm.com, and Essence. If a book in a genre I would normally read is popular, I'll probably read it. |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 09:53 am: |
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I have not told anyone to ask for my titles at a store that was not trying to purchase the books. What I do market is that they can order through a bookstore and avoid the shipping charges. I find that my Ingram sales are much higher than online for that reason, plus store discount cards can be used as well.
Libraries have been an especially strong market for my second book since it features a Katrina survivor as a main character. It has being added to special collections nationwide. Library demand for audio of my book allowed me to secure an audio publishing deal for Rooftop Diva. It will be out in the spring of 2008. I didn't seek it out, but an email came in inquiring about purchasing my audio rights. It turns out this company was getting requests for audio versions of my book from several libraries. I checked the company out, they have published audio versions of several best selling books and we struck a deal.
I saw a small spike in my hardcover sales after the ESSENCE listing, which I thought was odd as the paperback version is ten dollars less. If I had to pay to get on a list, I would not do it. If the work is good it will find its own level. If its not then you could get some reveiws that seem to counter the high ranking, and that does not look good for anyone.
www.DTPollard.com
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Mochascafe
Newbie Poster
Username: Mochascafe
Post Number: 10
Registered: 08-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Friday, November 16, 2007 - 04:22 pm: |
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Urban, I can't tell you how many authors who have told me they rearrange their own books on book store shelves and get others to do it on their behalf in other stores.
As a former Community Relations Manager at Barnes and Noble in DC, it is a COMMON marketing tool to go into book stores and "face out" your book.
As far as being a "bestselling author", I have seen authors come in the store, do an event, and because their book sold the most THAT DAY, they bill themselves as a "bestseller". Technically not lying but.......
Ive seen it all! |
Zane
Regular Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 63
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Sunday, November 18, 2007 - 06:45 pm: |
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To my knowledge, I do not think that a writer can bribe someone to be placed on a national bestseller list. I have heard the rumors but nothing substantiated. I think the better question would be the non-writers who purchase manuscripts outright from others, slap their name on it and then make bestseller lists when they have not written a single word. Granted that most celebrities hire ghostwriters. That is to be expected. Yet, I have to be amazed at the number of people who want to be bestsellers without writing a word and the people who sell them their work for zero recognition. It is becoming a popular trend among African-American books. To me that is defeating the purpose of being a writer. Then again if people are willing to sell their manuscripts for a flat fee, it is not a crime for others to capitalize on it.
As a publisher, I can verify that we do pay coop fees for store placement and many stores charge up to $300 per author to do a signing in their store and will bill the publisher; even if the publisher did not know about the signing and the author set it up on their own. A lot of chains are now insisting that signings be set up through national to avoid a lot of confusion.
Many radio stations also charge to promote a book but an even swap ain't no swindle.
To me, the cheapest and most effective way to promote and advertise a book is through the Internet. That is how I started and built up a worldwide audience and if you have a web site that people are drawn to, one that they will tell others about, that is half the battle. All in all this business is hit or miss, just like movies and music. No one can ever guarantee what will sell or not sell.
Zane |
Troy
Veteran Poster
Username: Troy
Post Number: 938
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 10:56 am: |
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Zane, I know radio stations charge. I was not aware of the bookstore charging for signings.
Do the Black independent book stores do this too? If not they should? I bet Hue-man in Harlem does this. It would explain why they have about 20 signings a month...
It should go without saying, that the Internet is the least expensive way to promote a book to a large audience.
However, as the number of books and websites continue to increase, promoting a book on the internet will become more expensive and difficult because of the increased competition.
All of the authors on this tread undertsand the importance of the net and are activitely exploiting it's benefits.
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Chrishayden
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Chrishayden
Post Number: 5749
Registered: 03-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 11:23 am: |
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When you view a bestsellers list can you be sure it's legit? A couple of authors have told me that for the right price you can BUY your way to popular bestsellers lists regardless of the authentic stats reported by bookstores or the results of in store and online sales. Could this be true?
(I don't know about that, but I have heard (do you think anybody connected with the publishing company or the list would admit it?) that sometimes the lists and the publishers play fast and loose with the figures, for instance, using the figures of books shipped before returns are figured in.
It's not exactly a lie--just a little creative reporting of the truth |
Hen81
Regular Poster
Username: Hen81
Post Number: 18
Registered: 09-2007
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 12:24 pm: |
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With the way some lists are compiled there is no way to know if it is from sales. Some lists are based upon shipped because it takes months to figure in returns. There are other lists based upon sales, but they don't get the same publicity as those based upon shipped. Amazon and bn.com are based upon sales and that is why they change constantly.
Then there are sotre sales reported lists like ESSENCE and some newspapers. These lists in some cities list bestsellers per week from a different store each week. Someone doing a signing at a store that reports the next week could be the bestseller locally for a large city for that store. If that happens, then they get listed in a paper with 1 million circulation for example. That has happened to me twice.
There are year end sales figures that account for books sold and they go almost unnoticed. Even then some of those don't capture Walmart, Sam's Club and gocery stores.
It's tough to know how many units any book is really selling unless the author tells you from their royalty statements.
www.DTPollard.com |
Cynique
"Cyniquian" Level Poster
Username: Cynique
Post Number: 10701
Registered: 01-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 12:55 pm: |
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Gee, this issue brings to mind, the discussion on another post about Barry Bonds using steroids to make the list of best hitters.  |
Zane
Regular Poster
Username: Zane
Post Number: 66
Registered: 11-2004
Rating: N/A
Votes: 0 (Vote!) | | Posted on Monday, November 19, 2007 - 01:37 pm: |
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Troy,
I know that some AA stores charge for signings. It is definitely not all of them because they probably don't know that they can. However, they would have to have a direct account with the publisher and not go through distributors exclusively. Many of the independent stores cannot qualify for the credit with major publishers.
Not all radio stations charge but some do. I know not all of them because I constantly do radio and so do a lot of my authors. One of my authors just did the Al Sharpton Show.
Now publishers can set up a radio satellite tour that cost a mint, where the author does 20-40 quick interviews back to back.
Zane |
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